What is Chaco Really? with Steve Lekson

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3 жыл бұрын

Amerind Free Online Lecture
What Was Chaco, Really? with Steve Lekson
Recorded - Saturday, April 24, 2021, 11:00 am - Arizona Time
Archaeologists lament that "no models from ethnography or ethnohistory works for Chaco," and conclude that Chaco remains a "mystery." Declaring Chaco a mystery in effect admits a major failure of Southwestern archaeology -- whose job it is to figure out things like Chaco. Chaco is not a mystery: one model from ethnohistory fits Chaco like a glove, if we broaden our horizons to encompass both ancient Mesoamerica and modern Native American insights. This presentation will discuss how Southwestern archaeology painted itself into a corner on Chaco; and how the evidence strongly indicates that Chaco was something not found in Southwestern ethnography; and offers a suggestion of what Chaco was, really.
Stephen Lekson recently retired as Curator of Archaeology at the Museum of Natural History, University of Colorado in Boulder. He received his PhD from the University of New Mexico and directed more than 40 archaeological projects throughout the U.S. Southwest, mainly in the Mimbres and Four Corners areas. Lekson's publications include a dozen books, many chapters in edited volumes, and articles in professional journals and popular magazines. His works include: "A Study of Southwest Archaeology," "Chaco Meridian," and "A History of the Ancient Southwest."

Пікірлер: 163

@susanwilliams6710 Жыл бұрын

I’ve listened to him in an earlier documentary, in which he seemed ill at ease, delivering this same information in a much more scatter-shot way. Thus, I really appreciated this fuller, more relaxed delivery. I think he did an excellent job with this lecture. Also, his unassuming attitude about his work is refreshing and uncommon among academics. I particularly appreciated the collegial way he spoke of others’ work, of the work he even has reservations about.

@sabineb.5616 6 ай бұрын

@susanwilliams, Steve Lekson might've felt ill at ease because the whole subject is such a can of worms, and many scientists don't want to step on anyone"s toes. This is very tough when oral traditions of indigenous people are concerned. I still think that Lekson isn't totally comfortable when he gives oral lectures. I prefer to read his papers and books.

@Redfour5 Жыл бұрын

Having traveled through there summer after summer as a kid in the late 1960's and early/mid 70's, I remember my dad a teacher/Jr. HS Principal speculating on the interconnectedness of the entire area that wasn't being discussed. In the right light you could see the roads out of Chaco. Dad speculated on a connected culture and most of the archeaology was pretty buried in hard copy journals. He knew locals including having beers with Edward Abbey and Moki Mac. Waldo Wilcox took my parents to ruins no one had ever seen and they told me it was like someone the people had just gotten up and left one morning in the middle of breakfast. We were told about Montezuma Canyon when only a few locals lived there and walked all over it over the years before it was even really known. Locals said archeologists had begun to look at it but not much done yet. Walking a wash, with tells, we saw one where the corner was being washed away and you could see wall remnants soon to be gone with the next rains and finding turquoise beads in the dirt in a circle about the size of a bracelet some already washed away. Yes, we know you were not supposed to touch them, but the next rains would wash them away. Mom treasured them for life. With the Wilcox Ruins, my parents said Textiles, even weapons just laying in corners, obvious sleeping areas...made it very eery. Anyway, you present the information in an objective open way that makes sense and does resonate with the things my father speculated on not being biased by an academic culture...just observations.

@GreatistheWorld 11 ай бұрын

Dude that’s incredible

@jopainting1668 10 ай бұрын

Fascinating, thank you for sharing this story with us!

@scarletred1497 10 ай бұрын

Those items should be repatriated

@Redfour5 10 ай бұрын

I'll talk to my mom about it. Oh wait, she's been dead for 10 years. I have NO idea what happened to them. Feel better trying to throw a guilt trip on me? Reality is what it is, deal with it. Right now they would be washed down a gully for fifty years never to be seen again. They gave my mother 50 years of a connection she shared with the world, that culture she sincerely respected and modern day elements of the surviving cultures supported in many ways including monetary. What's your problem? There was no disrespect.@@scarletred1497

@snowmiaow 8 ай бұрын

Thank you for the amazing story.

@Redfour5 Жыл бұрын

The signaling system. Up in Wyoming at the Medicine Wheel off 14A, we were there in the late 1960's and an old rancher took us in a WWII Jeep. It was still pristine, few went there. The rancher pointed across the vast landscape and said an old Indian had told him stories he had been told by his parents that they would light big fires and he would point to mountain outcrops 60 100 miles away you can see and he said they would light fires and see across areas as big as states... I've never seen that mentioned in any analysis of that arechological site. Oh someone cleaned it up from Pictures I've seen made it much more clear and "crisp." I wonder how accurate that was done...

@petem6846 Жыл бұрын

Great talk! I've been a fan of Lekson for years and enjoy reading his books because he's willing to hold opinions different from the currently accepted opinions. Very easy lecture to listen to and understand. His points are very compelling! Much different comments than what I heard from rangers at Chaco years ago.

@crbielert Жыл бұрын

Fantastic lecture. Thank you so much!

@mikeygmm 2 жыл бұрын

Fascinating lecture. Thank you

@ercost60 4 ай бұрын

Fantastic talk! I've read some books and seen some videos and visited Chaco twice. Steve's reasoning on houses & kivas seems sound and quite well thought out. Such a fascinating subject.

@katrussell6819 8 ай бұрын

I'd like more details about the stored materials and foods found in the little rooms. I'd like to know more about the turquoise jewels and feather pieces that were made. Fascinating information. Thanks.

@chrismanspeaker9372 6 ай бұрын

Was out there this past weekend. I had many questions. This answered many. It is a shame that a few folks, working from a strange stance has influenced the history or rather the interpretation of history based on an assumption with any claims to being remotely valid. I see that currently with the use of prescribed burns. It is unfortunate that the local people do not share their stories as it could change so much, honestly, so many opportunities to put story and legends to events that you could create many new archaeologists/historians/park people (PhDs) out of the local peoples AND keep that knowledge uniquely theirs at the same time.

@gregcleveland3498 4 ай бұрын

Very much appreciated. Thank you. Altepetl was new to me but seems to fit.

@peatsdaddy 3 жыл бұрын

Great lecture! Always a fascinating topic. Keep them coming!

@Redfour5 Жыл бұрын

My dad did speak to some of the "academics" of the time and his own observations were more along the lines of how you think. I remember when he and our friend were at Chaco and disagreeing with the academics they had spoken to who were talking of places as discrete and population numbers as "low" compared to what they thought... Dad really wasn't coming to any conclusions just making observations.

@Redfour5 Жыл бұрын

As an added variable to the question of why did they leave, go into the cliff dwellings. There appears to be an influx of people, the Navajo, as a factor that might have also played into the disruption of the society.... I still remember as a kid seeing the one place in Mesa Verde where a person had to crawl through a hole to get inside and the two places where a man could stand and essentially "bludgeon" anyone coming through with the first body basically blocking the hole... There were undoubtedly complex relationships with existing tribes not puebloan like the Utes??? but an influx of a "new" people in large numbers.... ???? Could that have been an "exclamation point."

@DennisRoberts-sv4hi 10 ай бұрын

Word is giants appeared, like 25- 30 foot tall. They started grabbing the indians and eating them. So they all bailed, got the hell out of there. Some moved high up into the sides of cliffs. Several books by Steve Quayle documents giants in Europe, Americas, up to the 14th century, they seemed to have died off then. Every nation in Europe has government archives documenting this. They disappeared from Europe around the 9 th century. Possibly came to Americas. All captain ship logs from 1400s, 1500s, 1600s documents giants in America's. Around 25 ft tall. Cortez, Balboa, ECT. All of them. Indian legends say the giants appeared and started eating them. Oral tradition from elders.

@AccDeleted1 2 ай бұрын

I don’t think Navajos were unified enough to come in large groups, they were known to spread out in many small bands.

@ensenadorjones4224 11 ай бұрын

Great video. I like the part where ethnologies and the original experts supposed some things about the pueblo people and Chaco that were inaccurate assumptions that were then accepted by academia as dogma. I see from many people that this area is center of trade and commerce for that region at that time.

@Neebrecker 13 күн бұрын

Yeah, great video, though like many academics he oversells how revolutionary and "against dogma" his research is (not saying this need to prove the predecessors wrong and make a name is a bad thing for actual sophisticated academics like Lekson--it's only dangerous when practiced by the undisciplined armchair conspiracy folk trying to fool people into buying their junk stories). Lekson here cites early ethnologists/cultural anthropologists, but those people weren't very interested in the historical questions such as the Chaco Canyon phenomenon, but instead were interested in studying currently existing societies. In fact, their work drastically improved the practice and theories of cultural anthropology, a different field than the archaeology field that Leson works in. The only reason he can get away setting them up as part of the foil is that Chaco is unique in that the descendants literally live nearby, and so it's a very plausible methodology to use their current and recorded cultural/political practices (Lekson's "Pueblo space") as a source for understanding those they had in the unrecorded past. Historians use cross-time cultural comparisons to generate explanations all the time (see work on ancient Egypt for instance). But..as Leksen shows, this methodology has largely failed for explaining the Chaco phenomenon and needs to go on the back burner.

@xOwlStriKex Жыл бұрын

JFYI the Apache and the Navajo are recent arrivals in the US Southwest.

@borninvincible Жыл бұрын

How long is recent?

@xOwlStriKex Жыл бұрын

@@borninvincible 1400s

@borninvincible Жыл бұрын

@@xOwlStriKex thanks for the reply. this is very interesting. could you recommend any books that cover this topic ?

@logicmontano3160 Жыл бұрын

@@xOwlStriKex according to archaeologists and anthropologists but if you ask the Navajo they'll tell you that they've been there well before that...

@xOwlStriKex Жыл бұрын

@@logicmontano3160 With respect to the Navajo... science trumps stories.

@madhistory Жыл бұрын

awesome

@watcherofthewest8597 11 ай бұрын

Great le ture and great ideas and a look into how digmatic american archeology can be and how rigourous, scientific investigation and common sence soeculation can destroy those old, often extremely biased narratives.

@patrickbass3542 25 күн бұрын

Who were the "nobles"? Were they 'locals" or did they migrate in? If so, where did they originate?

@adammillwardart7831 11 ай бұрын

The area around Chaco canyon has SO many dams/tanks in the valleys. There are hundreds and hundreds of them, and most of them are at least 20-30m long structures. The population of the area had to be higher than modern archeologists are saying. Building one of those without earthmoving equipment must have taken a lot of people and a lot of work. Let alone hundreds.

@scottlopez9822 4 ай бұрын

All you have to do is go out there and try to meditate ... you'll see what kind of energy you can connect with. Make your own decisions on what happened there. The energy will guide you.

@jamesn.economou9922 6 ай бұрын

So who was the royalty, at Chaco? Were they Aztec? That part, never came full circle here.

@zemog1025 2 ай бұрын

The Dineh/Navajo say the Chacoans were Toltecs and that the Ancestral Pueblo were there before both them and the Dineh.

@klakkinkittykat 8 ай бұрын

Its the Sun's house where he lived with his 6 wives...and then a Gambler came and just reporposed it to store his goods 😮

@dennissmith8699 9 ай бұрын

Chaco Canyon was the meeting place of the tribes of 5 directions. They arose from the wars with the reds as survivors. Here they shared the beautiful obsidian in great quantities here. Each house is built in the style of the traveler. The secret to understanding Chaco is to see the skill and pride they shared in the construction technics and their difference. Each shared their cultures and the mix created a very knowledgeable group.

@asabovesobelow7200 Жыл бұрын

Why Chaco to be the capital? Why? Nothing there for sustainability. What was the reason for building there?

@therealmusician Жыл бұрын

I'm thinking that, as a kind of marketplace, you don't need any resources, just a central location. This they had. (The dwelling might have started out small like any other, but increased in size later due to social/political factors: the reason for Chaco being the capital would then be, 'because the nobility lived there'.)

@headlessspaceman5681 4 ай бұрын

Because of the proximity to Fajada Butte

@andrewsanderson8566 2 ай бұрын

It's in the middle.

@zemog1025 2 ай бұрын

Perhaps Chaco is the Hubris of Empire, they built it to show their dominate power, technology, and religion to gain control over the local region. Also compare it with the New Capital City being built in Egypt.

@AccDeleted1 2 ай бұрын

There was more water around then

@adamhedberg 2 жыл бұрын

Great as always. Any possibility of housing the dead rather than the living? like a necropolis

@asabovesobelow7200 Жыл бұрын

The whole Navajo and Hopi & Chaco area is a reflection star map of the constellation of Orin

@adeshwodan4679 2 ай бұрын

Chaco is not in SE Arizona ❤😂❤

@cavemancaveman5190 Жыл бұрын

If you fail to mention bugs I'll tell the elders

@user-rw1ox1kl2p Ай бұрын

This fellow takes a lot of liberty filling in the gaps of his own research. The Navajos know what happened.

@Radius284 2 жыл бұрын

Navajo elders say evil things happened at Chaco. The Aztecs were probably kicked out for their worship of Huitzilopotchtli, abandoned chaco and went down south. The rest is history. Remember there were no borders back then.

@sabineb.5616 2 жыл бұрын

Radius284, the Aztecs were probably not responsible for what happened to the Anasazi. They came into power too late. But something might've come northwards from the collapsing Toltec empire. However, it cannot be excluded that the ensuing terror which eventually ended the Chaco phenomenon was homegrown and just influenced by Meso-American ideologies.

@scarletred1497 2 жыл бұрын

Navajo elders are spreading misinformation. Navajos/Apache didnt arrive in the 4 corner until the 1500's. They dont know nothing about Ancestral Puebloan.

@sabineb.5616 2 жыл бұрын

@@scarletred1497 , yes it is correct that the Navajo migrated into the area, when the Anasazi had already abandonned their habitats and migrated southwards. I have no idea why the Navjos called the previous population of that area "ancient enemies", because that's the translation of the Navajo term "Anasazi". How can these people who had already departed, have been enemies of the Navajos? However, it's absolutely plausible that the newly arrived Navajos searched the ruins of the abandonned villages and discovered the tell-tale remnants of the massacres - just like the modern archeologists. It's not hard to deduct that something very evil happened in these artfully constructed houses. I don't think that the Navajo elders spread misinformation. And if we consider the strong aversion of the traditinal Navajo against the remnants of human corpses, it's plausible that they shunned the habitats of the people they called "Anasazi".

@scarletred1497 2 жыл бұрын

@@sabineb.5616 can you cite your sources on massacres that "happened" at those ruins? Also not only navajo have strong averions to human corpses, us pueblo ppl have that view on human corpses. The misinformation is that Navajos are not related to my Ancestral puebloan people.

@marcosortiz3665 2 жыл бұрын

@@scarletred1497 there's an awesome documentary that talks about the mass bodies that were cannabolized at the ruins

@Tastaliciousful 2 ай бұрын

“They were very cosmopolitan” is a fun way of saying they were slave traders lol

@cherylhager6065 Жыл бұрын

Chaco/Draco!!!

@paulywalnuts24 17 күн бұрын

Chaco was home to the red haired cannibal giants aka Nephilim

@clairerobsin 11 ай бұрын

at 0:45 ...I`m glad you ain`t wearin a mask and, if I was there, I wouldn`t social distance from you neither! :O)

@nothingbutmilk6576 3 ай бұрын

A you tube site named Navajo Traditional Teaching has several videos on how the Dine view Chaco canyon and the Anasazi. They claim that the Anasazi "nobility" were actually slave traders and that the slaves eventually revolted and wiped out the nobility. Afterwards, some of the former slaves became clans of Dine. "Navajo" is actually a Spanish language corruption of the term (A nab a ho) that the Anasazi language used to describe the Dine.

@sabineb.5616 2 жыл бұрын

I really like Steve Lekson's ideas, but I find it very hard to listen to him. He is not a naturally gifted speaker. I prefer to read his writings. And in this video he is especially long winded.