What is magic charging? Replacing the battery of my Zero SR/S under warranty

[@timo23]

Thank you for a very good explanation of the issue and the extra detail you provided, this is the best explanation video I have seen for anything Zero related, keep it up, your attention to detail is appreciated! 👍🏻

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@@timo23 thanks for your nice comments! I will be back soon with more videos!

[@PaddyLectric]

Great video! And congratulations to 1k subscribers. 🙂👍🏼

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Thanks! I am very happy with the 1000 subscribers milestone hehe

[@tobiasljunggren2530]

Great video, keep it up. Would love to see more from you especially in english.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Thanks for your nice words! There will be more videos in English, as well as in Spanish!

[@MotoRideswJohn]

I had been considering adding the charge tank to my '22 SR/S Premium to bump up to 12.6Kw, but after watching this video, I believe now that wouldn't be a good investment. Zero seems to be walking a fine line between battery longevity and charge rate. Fingers crossed they will allow a faster charge curve in a future firmware update.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Indeed, my average charging speeds in the 30-90% range, which is what I normally do while traveling, is around 8.5 kW, far still from the 12.4 kW we should be getting as with the HM battery...

[@meeskees702]

Thanks so much for this video! I own a MY20 SRS with 12kW charging as well, and am starting to see intermittent charging happening as well as way less range as you are showing in the video. Starting to get a bit concerned as I am reaching the end of the warranty and have not had a battery swap yet.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@@meeskees702 best to approach your dealership with some info before it expires then! I hope you can get your issues fixed

[@RoadcraftNottingham]

I've found since having my battery replaced twice and two of my 12kw chargers, the charge speed is, as you explained, slower. What's the point in paying extra for charging when it doesn't give it you above 50%. I've had nothing but problems over the past 2.5 years and am currently in talks with zero about leaving this product. It's a shame as I love this bike but can't rely on it any more.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Sad to hear about your bike. Indeed, there are bikes that are working better than others, but I think it also applies to other brands as well. I'm hoping the slow charging speed will improve soon.

[@gww8026]

Very extensive and detailed video. Nothing was missing which is interesting. Thanks a lot for this 👍. I have the same problem and have been waiting for a response from Zero for 6 months now 😁. If it works out again with Schönau, we can do the lap 3 times with the SR/S 😂

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Good luck with your replacement, I know it takes a while. Hopefully, your wait will finish soon. If you don't have a Rapid Charger then it's all good improvements! The range is amazing

[@Zelidar]

I have 66'000 km on my SR/F and am eagerly waiting for an email from my dealer informing me that my third battery (BCB) has arrived. It will replace the second one (HM), which was installed at 34'866 km. Based on what you're saying in the video (thank you for that), it appears I would be able to charge at 100% and still go downhill using regenerative braking. Can't wait to try that. Currently, when I know I will have to go downhill for longer than 10 minutes, I limit charging to 95%. I ever hardly use the friction brakes anymore and love it. Interestingly, I have had most of the symptoms you described, which led the dealer to take the log and sending it to Zero twice. On the other hand, and in both cases, those symptoms disappeared, and then I was only left with a battery capacity, which is about 70% of what it was when < 30'000 km. Speedway at 100 kph for not much longer than 100 km.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Thanks for your nice words! I'm glad the video was helpful to you and that you will finally get a BCB battery. You will notice a HUGE difference in performance. It is really a nice battery for range, but the charging speed is still somewhat limited compared to the previous HM battery, especially if you have the rapid charger installed

[@dennisnl7125]

Love the new battery on my 2020SRF, but it's charge curve is slow slow 😔

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

I hear you bro, same here... Looking forward to the next updates! I know Zero is working on a fix in the form of a future update, hopefully before the summer!

[@SwitzeroRider]

really instructive video, thanks a lot 🙌

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

thanks for your comment! I see you will have no longer these issues with the new DSR/X ;)

[@dd1365]

2021 SR/S premium: the second time they replaced the battery they installed the BCB. I noticed the increased range and reduced charging speed above 80%. Thanks so much for explaining what was going on! Love the range boost. Cuts my home charging down to almost nada while I use Company kilowatts at work. (Those are the best kilowatts!😄)

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

I'm glad you are happy with the new battery, me too! Indeed, work kWh are the best kWh

[@alexman321]

Nice gear and outfit. Wonderful video!

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Thanks bro! I'm glad you liked it

[@RamonZulen]

Excelent!

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Thanks for your comments! Glad you liked it

[@strikejre81]

También podrían montar el conector CCS que está más extendido que el mennekes es bueno para baterías pequeñas de híbridos que no lo vas a cargar muy seguido. El Nissan Leaf que es totalmente eléctrico es un ejemplo de que la carga es lenta con ese conector. Vi información sobre que a lo mejor cambiaban el conector como un upgrade, pasando por caja o san paganini, pero no encontré ni supe más del tema. Igual con el conector CCS y un software update esos 12kW de carga se sostienen mejor.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Gracias por tu comentario! Los cargadores y el tipo de conexión son plenamente capaces de alcanzar los 12.6 kW que tenía antes de cambiar la batería. Sigue siendo un problema de software, y cambiar el conector (en caso de que se pudiera), no solucionaría nada me temo. También oí algo acerca del conector CCS, pero volvemos a que la batería y el software son los que tienen que aceptar potencias de carga altas durante más tramo del rango de carga. Me temo que nos toca esperar un poco más a que actualicen el software

[@gmy33]

damn .. how many batteries does zero replace ??? .. is energica also replacing that many batteries ??

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Hi, thanks for your comment. I don't know how many batteries they have replaced or they need to replace in the future. Looking from a customer's perspective I feel protected by the warranty, the fact that the batteries are being replaced in case they fail is good for us customers. I'd prefer not to have it changed? Maybe, but now I have a much better battery for free, with more range and less weight. I know Energica is also replacing some of the batteries, I know a couple of cases, but not sure if they change more or less batteries than Zero does. I have the feeling they change less batteries, but again, they also sell less bikes than Zero does, so in proportion I have no clue.

[@gmy33]

@@DanielMonteroElectraveler yes .. and congratualations on your new battery .. mine faiked too but out of warranty .. did nt use it enough . I took care of it though .. the only thing bourhering me was that cell prises dropped still i have to pay premium for a new batt i calculated replacement would be max 5k .. now its 7.2 to revive my bike and thats too much for me .. i sold it for scraps and let somebody have fun with the parts

[@mmistermusic]

Thanks Daniel for your video. Is this problem that you describe about slow charge times also applicable to the current 2024 sr/s ? Or only to 'older' bikes that can a replacement battery ? I am doubting to buy an Srs/s. Would you still recommend it today ? Or would it be better to choose the Experia today ?

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@@mmistermusic the problem is sadly still applicable to all bikes with the BCB battery, including the new ones... Whether to choose a Experia or a Zero is the eternal question for some of us eriders. I am afraid there is not a universal answer, it depends what you want, like and need in your case. I like the Experia quite a lot but I would not buy it for some reasons. Those reasons may not be shared by other people who evaluate the same aspects or features differently. My recommendation is to ride test both and check what suits you best. Do you have AC or DC chargers? Riding position? Available extras? Which dealership is better?

[@mmistermusic]

@@DanielMonteroElectraveler Difficult choice today. I did ride them. I liked the SR/S better. But charging at 24kw is a big plus for the Experia. I am hoping Zero and Energica will come out with new bikes in 2025. In the end there has not been big improvements at Zero for the last 3 years. Still exactly the same tech. And at Energica, I am hoping they will release new bikes with the Experia-tech inside. The ego-platform of the Ego, Ribelle and SS9, is also getting quite old.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@@mmistermusic that is the eternal question when buying a piece of technology. Shall I wait for something better to come out or should I jump in already and start benefitting? I tend to choose the second approach. But you are asking only one month away of the EICMA show, where they normally share their latest models and new lineup for 2025. It would be good to check what they show there (beginning November). I agree that charging fast is appealing, I cannot deny that. Do you have enough CCS stations where you plan to move? So far, my experience tells me there are not so many compared to type 2. But that depends from region to region

[@mmistermusic]

@@DanielMonteroElectraveler Since you seem to be the 'expert' on Zero modifications, I hoping you could maybe advise me. Do you think it will work to add an Elcon TC charger in enable mode (no canbus) to a Zero Sr/s to add an additional 3,3kw on the 3rd phase ? Just putting the charging is parallel on the battery. Or would the BMS give errors on the additional current ? Thanks for your advise.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@mmistermusic thanks for your comment and your words. Unfortunately I am no expert hehe. I have to admit that thought has crossed my mind multiple times. A Dutch guy called Dennis NL in Facebook demonstrated that 100% SOC corresponds to 114 V on the SRS, and we are guessing that 116 V should then be 116.2 V. I am assuming it would be possible in theory, no blocking points seen from the hardware point of view, apart from making a good connection with no isolation faults. The problem indeed can be the software, I don't know if the bike will complain if it receives more current than it is expecting... Unfortunately, the only way to find out is to try it...

[@jcr2180]

Hola Daniel Yo tengo el problema #1 del rango de la batería que para nada es lo que dijeron cuando la compre, desde que mi moto tenía 1500 millas el rango de la batería se hizo insufrible se descarga un 1% en 1 milla por ciudad, con 2000 millas fui al concesionario y me dijeron que todo estaba bien, yo les pedí que chequearan el BCM creo que es, el que gestiona la batería. El #2 de el tanto % de la batería que se descarga un 1% en 1 milla por ciudad a unos entre 37 millas/hora y 40 mi/hr., ya cuando subo a la autopista me lo paso mirando el tanto % de la batería y estando en medio del tráfico a 60 mi/hr. que lo hace peligroso porque todo el mundo va a 70 mi/hr. mínimo, en 10 millas me baja la batería un 42%, de un 90% que salgo de casa (no me gusta cargarla al 100%) se me queda en el 48%, después paro en el trabajo y el tanto % se recupera y me dice que tiene 78%, pero es muy frustrante no saber que tan lejos puedo ir. Viendo tus vídeos que haces viajes a otros países, yo ni me atrevo a salir de la ciudad. Yo no tengo el problema número 4 y el 5 tendría que fijarme, lo que si se es que cargo la moto al 90% y me dice que tengo una autonomía de 38 millas😢, después se mantiene ahí sube, baja, por eso yo pensé que el BCM no estaba bien, pero ahora con esta información que me das voy a ponerme en contacto con Zero Motorcycle. La moto tiene 6800 millas y desde las 1.500 millas sufriendo. Por este problema he intentado venderla varias veces y mira que me encanta callejear con ella por las tardes con mi música puesta y simplemente dando vueltas por la ciudad. Gracias por la información 👍

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Efectivamente, parece que tu batería tiene problema de crimpado. Estoy convencido de que podrán solucionar tus problemas cambiando la batería. Mucha suerte!

[@jcr2180]

Como me recomiendas hacerlo? Me pongo en contacto con un concesionario o con Zero Motorcycle? El problema extra que yo creo que tengo es que el concesionario donde yo compre la moto ya cerro, y tengo que ir a quejarme a otro concesionario donde yo no compre la moto, eso me da un poco dolor de cabeza, hasta que pienso si sacar una nueva la trail y entregar esta y que ellos se busquen la vida, pero sería meterme en nuevos pagos cuando ya tengo esta casi pagada.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@@jcr2180 lo mejor es acudir al concesionario Zero más cercano. Tienen que recoger los logs de la moto por cable. Así que, aunque no hayas comprado la moto en ese concesionario, tienen la obligación de atenderte, además de que no es culpa tuya de que haya cerrado el concesionario donde la compraste! Ellos deberían de poder ayudarte

[@AI-Wizard-Music]

It is an issue with the SOH algorithm which was created using an artificial neural network feedback loop and data from riders driving around the Zero factory. The AI created an algorithm that has a flaw, its really that simple.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

Do you honestly believe a company like Farasis would be changing +5000 dollars batteries by the hundreds when the fix is as simple as changing the algorithm, which was developed by an external company? If the algorithm was the root cause, then it would have been as simple as putting in place the perfectly working algorithm of the batteries coming from the gen2 bikes. The issue is a crimping problem as confirmed by Zero and Farasis

[@AI-Wizard-Music]

@@DanielMonteroElectraveler I discovered the issue in 2016 reported it with a lot of data and the engineers at zero explained this. Zero wrote the algorithm, however, it is deeply integrated into their system and if they admitted it was the issue, they would have to perform a recall on all batteries from 2016 forward. Yes I do believe this because I coined the term Magic Charging and have more data including individual cell temperature mapping through the OBD. Along with Thousands of miles and km of detailed logs which have been analyzed. Again the engineers were pretty clear. When I discovered the issue, Zero removed the battery TOTAL KWH measurement from the display to hide the fact that the algorithm was miscalculating the ENTIRE kwh of the pack. This is a simple algorithm issue with legal, financial and business reason for not fixing and not making it clear.

[@AI-Wizard-Music]

@@DanielMonteroElectraveler if you connect to the system through the OBD you can still see the total pack capacity being miscalculated by the bms and mbb.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

@@AI-Wizard-Music I understand it may have started as an algorythm issue, but there is something else going on. You don't see the magic charging symptoms I describe on 2016+ batteries on Gen2 models. The issue I am covering in this video only happens to 2019 to 2021 gen3 SR/F and SR/S models. If it was an algorhytm issue, we would be seen all bikes from 2016 having this issue, which is not the case. I believe we are talking about completely different problems here.

[@AI-Wizard-Music]

@@DanielMonteroElectraveler I see, if it is specifically those models, then yes, I can confirm there was a crimp issue which becomes a fire hazard over time, you should still check the max_capacity and cell temperature values as it may show you some interesting things. All the other issues were the algorithm. Zero has lied to me A LOT and to it's users to protect itself, while I know what you are talking about, the 2019-2021 SR/F did 100% ALSO have the algorithm issue. The crimps were an excuse for it at the beginning because no one wanted to believe an algorithm could be the issue. In the past, I could literally get on ANY zero including the SR/F/S models and get magic charging with just the 6kw charger in less than 100 miles. Litteraly any bike, even the FX/S Same thing with the standard models. That was 6 years from when I reported the issue and the engineers confirmed it. So I am sure you can see why I am skeptical that they have fixed the algorithm in the past 3 years. You have to understand I also helped get CCS going on the Zeros 3 years ago, but it could not be implemented because of magic charging and other issues.

[@Protonus]

This video is full of misinformation and is making lots of assumptions that are incorrect, based on other assumptions. This is not magic charging, this is voltage rebound. This is caused by the 14.4 kWh battery in the 2019-2021 Gen 3 bikes wearing out faster than anticipated due to the design of the pack itself being insufficient for the application. They changed the module configuration from parallel to series from Gen 2 to Gen 3 for the 14.4 packs and the cells are insufficiently cooled, and over worked, thus they wear out very fast, show high internal resistance and balance issues within a few thousand miles, leading to Voltage Rebound and Voltage Sag, common things that occur as LiPo's are worn.

[@DanielMonteroElectraveler]

I'm glad that you liked the video. I have done my research and my trustworthy sources have confirmed this as a manufacturing issue in the crimping process. Of course, the fact that the bike is demanding a lot of power makes the crimping problem to appear faster, but it does not mean that what I describe the video is incorrect