What is Molinism? wIth Tim Stratton (Part 1) - The Alisa Childers Podcast #12

[@krisbadje4770]

Have You heard of provisionalism? Leighton Flowers does a great job of explaining this soteriology. Please interview him.

[@chriswest8389]

What else could there be? God maximises Human salvation visa vi, freewill.simple as that isn't it. The only clear theology on this is open theism.Even I can understand this

[@tiffanydaniel8996]

Thank you so much for this, Alisa! For some time I considered myself Calvinist, but have started questioning it and no longer consider myself a Calvinist, or at least a full one. I’ve come to truly believe that Jesus died for all of humanity’s sins…. I’ve also realized that Calvinism is a worldview. Our understanding of God through it really does impact the way we approach evangelism, our self-perception, counseling, etc. All the things you said. Since realizing this, I know now to put my faith in Jesus alone, not in “election” (or faith in my faith or faith in my works, which for the Calvinist is what legitimizes one’s election). Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith - it’s IN Him we are predestined! That’s why He admonishes us to “remain in Him.” He is the vine; we are the branches. Only IN Him can we bear good fruit

[@bridgetgolubinski]

Best podcast episode ever! I've replayed this interview so many times!

[@007Tinkins]

Extremely good interview! Thank you.

[@HarujiSubayama]

You gotta have Dr. Craig on the show!

[@EternityinOurHearts316]

The Calvinism I have been taught does not teach that we are puppets and do not have full responsibility for our actions. Rather that we have full responsibility and at the same time God is fully in control of everything, even our wills. I don't think this is a contradiction in the same way the the Trinity, the hypostatic union or a burning bush aren't contradictions.

[@Joshtheigbo]

Full control of our wills is not free

[@EternityinOurHearts316]

@@Joshtheigbo no it's not. I didn't say we have free will. I said we have full responsibility for our actions.

[@billboardman8747]

Eternity in Our Hearts then the one in control of our wills is responsible for our actions

[@EternityinOurHearts316]

@@billboardman8747 not necessarily.

[@MrKingcarella23]

@@EternityinOurHearts316 no free will=no responsibility

[@finallyretired3623]

I dont know why the seeming conflict between determinism and free will is so hard. As a parent i am sovereign over my children in their daybto day lives. I set the boundaries as well as the consequences . They are free to choose their behavior. If they choose "bad" behavior" they dont get to choose the consequences. The same is true of gods sovereignty on a universal level.

[@biblicalworldview1]

I agree with you but you are not sovereign over their choices in this sense. In other words you don't determine that they do wrong things, you just give them consequences when they do them. That does not seem to align with the calvinistic explanation of sovereignty

[@thevfxwizard7758]

What you described is a great example of molinism. God uses the free choices of man to orchestrate the events of history, without actually determining their actions. Determinism, on the other hand, would be like a parent meticulously scheduling out their child's day, what they will eat, what they will wear, the exact moment they will sit down and stand up, etc. Not a perfect analogy but I hope it makes sense!

[@ThemCoversMB]

Please interview Tims colleague Chris Date on conditional immortality. Because of him he's open to CI. I think it would be great.

[@treysmith5513]

In ephesians 1, he does not say the ephesians (and us by extension) were predestined. He was talking about "We who first trusted in Christ" (Eph 1:12). In Roman's 1:16, we know that "The Gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew FIRST, and also the for the Greek." He doesn't start talking about the Ephesians with regard to the spiritual blessings until verse 13, where he says: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation; in whom also having believed, were sealed with with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the garuantee of our inheritance until the redemtion..." Which would mean Paul and the Apostles were predestined to all these things, and when the Ephesians believed they were included. This passage is not about predestined salvation, it is about the garuanteed future of believers. The adoption referenced is not salvation but the resurrection. Paul says what the adoption is in Roman's 8:23 "We eagerly wait for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies." But if when Paul opens talking about, we have been predestined to adopt in Him, and having all the mysteries made known etc, and the Ephesians (us) are included. Why would Paul pray for the ephesians (us) for God to give us the spirit, revelation and understanding in verse 16-19? Paul just praised God that the ephesians just like him supposedly have the mysteries and promises because they were predestined to "be In Christ." In verses 3-11. Either Paul is forgetful or people in general are NOT predestined to believe.

[@treysmith5513]

We don't have to have philosophical things to contest calvanism. All we need is scripture in context. Ephesians 1 has a very similar tone to Roman's 8 which is also about the garuanteed future of believers. But in Rome people were getting killed, same in Ephesus. To back up Paul's letters all have a purpose, Thessalonians were evangelistic but had bad doctrine, Corinth had sexual immorality among some other things, Galatians were believing works based salvation (Galatians is similar to Roman's 9), and Ephesus while being a loving church, being in an affluent trade center was likely very generous, but lacking in evangelism likely due to fear. They worshiped Diana and if you read Acts 19 you will see how the Pagan Ephesians especially those building idols felt about the spree of Christianity (viewed in the day as a Jewish sect). It's understandable why people would be afraid to spread the Gospel. If you break down ephesians by chapter. #1 like romans 8 tells of the secure future, redemption, salvation and blessings promised to all believers. #2 talks about we were saved by grace through faith and having his spirit being a new creation are prepared for good works that were prepared that we should walk in. Many Ephesian believers also were likely hard hearted toward the pagan ephesians, so Paul reminds them they were once the same and have been brought near by Christ who is their peace and can also be the peace for the pagan ephesians who they can minister to. Therefore Christ must be the center because it is he that works through us. #3 He explains the mystery that the gentiles are included and encourage the Ephesians and pray for them to have strength to "fight the good fight just as he has been doing." #4 Paul exhorts the Ephesians to walk in sanctification, and be united in the work of ministry, not just giving. He also explores them to put on Christ, to not live the old life but the new. There was a lot of immorality around them, he says many because of it have become past the point of feeling. Regardless of what you see around still walk in faithfulness, love and tenderheartedness. #5 He spent a bunch of the letter telling them to be united and loving. Here he tells how lays out how to do that and instructions for Husbands and wives to do Godly marriage. #6 He continues on that same note with regard to servants and masters. Their masters or servants may not always be saved, regardless he instructs how we are to conduct ourselves with them and that God pays attention to how we treat one another in those respective roles. And ends off with encouragement and instruction to come agaisnt spiritual warfare. Everything is at the end a war for souls, and if we give place to the enemy it will destroy us, our unity and our ministry and gather more souls to be lost. So always be on guard, applying all these things he has written and praying. The letter is pointed and has a reason. There is only one interpretation: the original intent of the original author toward the original audience. Which everything here IN CONTEXT (textual and gramarical) absolutely applies to us.

[@howardbabcom]

Before Calvin, Arminius and Molina, there was Luther. Romans 11:32 is a really helpful and biblical place to start.

[@p1lgr1mOne]

I believe the one at the other end of that Skype call was the whitebearded theologian :)

[@lawrencestanley8989]

On the one hand, no one would deny that God has knowledge of what an individual would do in a given scenario (cf. Matthew 11:21), but if God’s decisions are based upon what others would do, if God merely looks at "all possible worlds," and then chooses and creates the one that best glorifies Him, then He is no better than a card player, doing the best that He can with the hand that He has been dealt. Molinism also assumes libertarian free will, that fallen man’s choices are free from God’s predetermination and any restrictions of human nature. This position is flatly denied by the scriptures. You can talk the philosophy of Molinism all you want, but when it comes down to it, the presuppositions behind Molinism are refuted by scripture.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 17:17, exhaustive divine determinism? I prefer to use the Biblical language that God effects all things after the counsel of His own will such that from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Scripture gives NO exception to this "all things." Philosophy might... William Lane Craig might... But scripture does not.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 28:05, you COULD have believed, thought, or did otherwise?? Really? So in 1 Samuel 10:9, could God have failed to change his heart because he wanted to do otherwise? In Exodus 3:21-22, when God declared that He would grant Israel favor in the sight of the Egyptians, could they have done otherwise? In Daniel 1:8-10, when God "granted favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials," could he have done otherwise? Of course not.

[@matthewdyer2926]

This a convoluted mess. This is theology derived from philosophy, making God's truth the handmaiden to man's reason, instead of the other way around. I love Alisa Childers, but she didn't ask any of the right questions in this interview. John Owen addressed and refuted every argument against the doctrines of grace in his work "The Death of Death". There is nothing new under the sun, including the recycled attacks on God's sovereignty over man and salvation; John Owen addressed this man's arguments and many others nearly 400 years ago, and his entreaty has not yet been answered by any of the opposing side. God's sovereignty over salvation has and will always have those who oppose it. Thankfully, God's word rightly understood silences the opposition. Read "The Death of Death".

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 17:08, you reject it? So you reject Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:3, Isaiah 26:12, Job 23:14, Philippians 2:12-13, Lamentations 3:37-38, and many more... You reject all of the scriptures that declare that the will of man is both contingent upon, and subject to the will of God who holds sway over man's will, that man wills willfully what God wills him to will? Scriptures such as 1 Samuel 10:9, Ezekiel 36:26, Jeremiah 24:7, Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 31:33, Jeremiah 32:40, Exodus 3:21-22, Daniel 1:8-10, John 1:13, Romans 9:16, 18, Daniel 4:16, and many, many more...

[@user-dz8rg3fg5h]

That was a whole lot of not much 😂

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 27:22, you are a first mover? No. If the action of a free moral agent is free from all contingency, then that would make the action its own cause. If an act of the will can exist free from all contingency, as you suggest, then a present act of the will is made an effect caused by a previous act of the will, and that act of the will was an effect caused by a previous, ad infinitum, all the way back to the very first act of the will. But it is impossible for something to be both its own cause and effect. If an act of the will would be its own cause, then in fact it would never happen, because nothing can create itself...

[@Marco3131-]

Molinism is nothing more than a caricature of Arminian and Semi-Pelagian freewill. To begin with, the Bible does not teach an unbridled Libertarian freewill of man. The wills of men are always bound by God's sovereign decree. Acts 4:27-28, For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. John 19:11, Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Isaiah 10:6-7, I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. When fallen unregenerate man does make a choice, his choices are always consistant with his nature and are the outworking of God's eternal decree. Ephesians 2:1-3, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. I Samuel 2:24-25, Nay, my sons; for it is no good report that I hear: ye make the Lord's people to transgress. If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them. Acts 2:23, Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Believers , with their renewed natures, are also under the overriding influence and power of God as He fulfills His eternal decree. Philippians 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. James 4:15, For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. The decree of God is eternal even as God Himself is. Acts 15:18, Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. His freely ordained plan and purpose preceded everything within the created order; all things being the result of it. Ephesians 1:5, 9, 11, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Isaiah 46:10-11, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Both the decree and election are unconditional, the one flowing forth from the other. Romans 9:11,13,16,18, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Psalm 50:10-12, For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Romans 11:33-35, O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? Acts 17:28, For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Libertarian freewill is a myth and it is totally incompatible with God's eternal decree.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 12:04, causally manipulated by God? At 12:14, a puppeteer? This is either an honest misunderstanding of the Bible, or it is a purposeful, and truly disgusting misrepresentation. Sir, if THAT is how you understand "Calvinism," then you have never understood "Calvinism," and if now you have become a Molinist, then it is my assertion that you did not understand the scriptures then, and you do not understand them now. The scriptures declare in Romans 11:36 - "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." Yet, if Molinism were true, that passage would have to read, "because of how men would act, all things exist as they are."

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 22:50, just one more comment on Stratton's erroneous "droid" analogy, this from A.W. Pink's work, "The Sovereignty of God," “God’s decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men, but the fore determined and prescribed bounding and directing of men’s sinful acts. God does not take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart, and thereby force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. Instead, God decreed the act, and then selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not “make him evil” in order that he should perform the deed. On the contrary, when we look at the life of Judas, the betrayer of Jesus, he was “a devil” at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve. (John 6:70) And in the manifestation and exercise of his own devilry, God simply directed Judas’ actions - actions that were perfectly agreeable to his own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked of intentions…” By this way, man is still held accountable to God for his sins; man is held accountable for acting upon the wicked intentions of his heart, even though his actions are ordained by God in eternity past.

[@Franci0242]

Sorry, but being politically correct is the opposite of what Jesus thought us. The God of the Bible sent His Son to die for ALL and offers salvation to ALL and desires ALL to be saved. The God of the Bible is 100% impartial and just. And when He was lifted up, Jesus drew ALL man to Himself and now it's our responsibility to receive Him and believe/trust in Him or not. God sovereignly decreed and elected that all those who will believe in Christ, all those who are in Christ by faith, are predestined to be saved according to His foreknowledge, that is it, as simple as that. So since the god of Calvinism is undoubtedly partial/unjust and the author of evil and sin, how can he be the same God of biblical Christianity? How is it the same jesus? And all who understand this crucial and primary issue cannot condone such an heresy but they should denounce it for what it is.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 26:21, what he fails to realize is that moral responsibility does not necessitate human libertarian free will - it is a non-sequitur.

[@chriswest8389]

Interesting. Tell me more.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

@@chriswest8389 Sure. In the following passages, we see God actively determining, decreeing, setting, predestining, or sending men to perform an action, and for those men who are doing what God has set them to do, it is a sin, an evil act, and they could not have done otherwise; God is in control of the men performing the action, and yet He is innocent of sin, and those performing the sinful actions are morally accountable for sin: Genesis 50:20, Job 1:13-15, 17, 21, Isaiah 10:5-6, Judges 9:22-23, 1 Samuel 2:25, 16:14, 18:10, 19:9, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Psalm 105:24-25, Proverbs 16:4, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, 1 Peter 2:8-10, Romans 9:22, Acts 2:22-23, 4:27-28. Human responsibility does not require neutrality of the will in order for a person to be morally accountable. A.W. Pink noted, “By nature, humanity possesses natural ability (desires, will) but lacks moral and spiritual ability. The fact that he does not possess the latter does not destroy his responsibility, because his responsibility rests upon the fact that he does possess the former” (“The Sovereignty of God,” page 154). In other words, man has the metaphysical components to respond to and obey God, but original sin has destroyed our moral desire and thereby our moral ability to obey God. Another demonstration that responsibility does not rest upon one’s ability to do otherwise is in observing that God cursed the serpent in the garden even though it was possessed by Satan, and, being controlled by him, the serpent could not do otherwise, and yet it was still punished for its actions. It is a popular assertion today by men like Leighton Flowers that responsibility rests on the assumption of ability, but, like most things with Leighton Flowers, it just isn't Biblical.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 18:45, right, because human "libertarian free will" does not exist. We are “free” to do what we want to do (that is, no man is coerced), so we make decisions based upon how outside factors influence us, but what is it that determines our "wants?" Indeed, we are bound in what we want to do by our evil nature and desires (Romans 8:7). We may do as we please, but we cannot please as we please. We cannot use our will to shape our nature, but rather, it is our nature that determines how we will use our wills, and every man born of natural generation from Adam is born into an Adamic, sinful condition that determines his nature (Romans 5). The will of man can desire only what his nature permits him to desire, therefore his will is by no means free, but rather it is a slave to his nature, and his nature is a slave to the will of God. Your droid analogy is WAAAAAAAAY off base; in it, you are asserting that in the Calvinist view, man is not morally responsible because God "programs" men to be sinful and to act wickedly, and this is NOWHERE EVEN NEAR to what Calvinists teach. This will take a bit to develop the Bible's teaching on this, but in order to see how this works, look at the life of Joseph - God ordained that Joseph go into slavery (Genesis 45:8) so that He might, through Joseph, preserve His people that they might become a nation from whom the Messiah would come. God intended the action (Joseph going to Egypt) for the glory of God, while Joseph’s brothers on the other hand, sold him into slavery out of jealousy (a sinful act). Here we see in this one act ordained by God, two intentions: God ordains an action and intends it for good, while men perform the action and intend it for evil (Genesis 50:20). And, as we see in Isaiah 10:16, God will judge those who act with wicked intentions even though their actions carry out what He has ordained. So where do men’s wicked intentions come from? Does God make men evil? Well, God’s eternal decree includes men having evil intentions, but man’s actual evil intentions are in fact his own, after all, “God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices” (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Proverbs 16:9 - The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts (cf. Matthew 15:18)… While God indeed ordains the sinful condition of man’s heart (having ordained the fall, cf. Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:20, Isaiah 63:17, 64:7), He does not seed him with “the evil thoughts.” Evil thoughts are not a created “thing” to be seeded, rather, they are a product of the mind of fallen man; it is a disposition; a bent; a deed of the flesh (Galatians 5:19); it is an ever present reminder of man’s fallen condition (Ephesians 2:1). The intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth (Genesis 8:21) because sin dwells within him (Romans 7:8ff). God is sovereign over all and ordains whatsoever comes to pass (Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:36), and whatever He ordains, because God’s will is perfectly righteous and holy, His intention is always for the glory of God, and His will always serves that purpose. Man’s will however is fallen because of Adam’s sin (Romans 5), and unless his will is captivated by the righteousness of God working within his will to do and to work for the glory of God (Philippians 2:12-13), he will always work out what God ordains for his own sinful purposes (Genesis 50:20), according to his own wicked intentions (Proverbs 16:9, Mark 7:21, Ecclesiastes 7:29). In this way, God ordains (plans/arranges) whatsoever comes to pass, but He is not the author of sin - the existence of sin is in His eternal plan, therefore He has indeed ordained its existence, but he never decrees (commands) individuals to act sinfully; that they do out of their own intentions that have become fallen in Adam (Romans 5). God ordained the action and meant it for good, but men performed the action and meant it for evil. Because men perform the action intending it to fulfill their own sinful desires, although the action itself was ordained by God for His glory, men remain culpable for actions that they perform according to their own wicked intentions. (cf. Isaiah 10:5-11) Remember James 1:13-14 - “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.” God does not make men evil in order that they might carry out the decrees of God for wicked purposes. All men who are of natural generation from Adam have inherited a fallen nature (Romans 5) and are by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and they will naturally act out God's ordinations for their own wicked intentions, so, of course God does not tempt men to act wickedly, wickedness is in their nature thanks to Adam’s fall, and every man will be held accountable for acting upon the wicked intentions of his heart.