What is the Antidote to Fascism? | Offline with Jon Favreau Podcast

[@TomLloyd-18]

A Gr8 Guest. I could listen to him all day. Love how he digs deep and explains it so thoroughly in plain English.

[@richardscrimger3969]

One of my favorite analysts!

[@pasowen]

Agreed. He’s a superhuman communicator.

[@mlight7402]

@@pasowen Anand has thought about the source of the problem and been telling people his ideas for a long time. He has fine-tuned his message over the years so it is understandable and well received.

[@debrarymer]

I am sharing this over and over and am feeling a teeny bit more hopeful. Thank you Jon and Anand.

[@SharonThoboisluvtolive]

Feelings are only about discernment of evidence. We are given Satan's GOP'S LAWYERS plan to GASLIGHTING duplicitous trust and bad-faith politics to ERASER OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES and philosophy meant to confuse, no more. I love sharing our grace's purpose for humanity purposes to share our thoughts and experiences with guidance and FAITH.

[@esobed1]

This will only be resolved with force at this point. The Right has gone to far... and our aversion to violence and retribution has done nothing more than emboldened the Right. Many really do not understand the psychology of the nationalist fundamentalist racist idealist. They cause civil and world wars by default. Better get ready for the reality of a rough couple of decades. Sorry to say this.

[@rbmtn4879]

Unfortunately, we are already at the point of, as Anand puts it, Contempt and Dismissal. I guess we'll see how the elections turn out tomorrow, but if Republicans (drumftists) regain the house or senate and maintain their assorted state houses, then we are halfway to full fascism. It might be too late, but we (democratists) should be negotiating a division into two or nations, one or more for fascists, one or more for democratists. If that happens, facsists will learn the true difference. Of course, we would need to be able to defend our democracy, and that will take some persuasion itself.

[@sands7779]

@@rbmtn4879 When you say divide the nation in two, I think of Yevgeny Prigozhin “Gentlemen, we interfered, we are interfering and we will interfere" and that you didn't hear the message.

[@rbmtn4879]

@@sands7779 What message.

[@biancacolmenares620]

I recently have become aware that I have an issue with black and white thinking. I think of myself as highly empathetic, but sometimes I get so confused and upset with people that think differently from me. This is going to be so helpful for my work and conversations going forward. Thank you!

[@MrSteventodd]

I'm an old man finally getting my shit together and finishing my undergrad. This was the best start to my freshmen research paper. You guys helped me so much.

[@AmrithSudhakaran]

Thank you Jon and Anand. The six points in the end that Anand shared apply to growing my business. 1. Command Attention 2. Make Meaning 3. Meet People Where They Are 4. Provide a Home 5. Tell the Better Story 6. Pick Fights These ideas are so profound that I'm re- formulating my business plan around them. Also, this conversation opened my eyes to areas where I've closed myself to change or persuasion. I wish you all the best. May these ideas spread far and fast

[@djsunshine1]

True altruistic care and motives are necessary!

[@an-gw8nx]

One of the best people you have interviewed, such a balanced approach to life and how people behave.

[@hoytbangs9425]

"A people that elect corrupt politicians, impostors, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices." - George Orwell

[@lhoward9593]

You always give good quotes! 😉

[@sheilalopez3983]

Hoyt, enablers enable bad behavior. They don't enable the person, they enable the behavior because more times than not these people don't even pay attention to what Nazi-trump says. If you don't believe me watch the people when he's giving a speech, their attention wanders.

[@debrarymer]

However these are people who are somewhat tricked and led into those acts. Perhaps half accomplice-half dupe.

[@lhoward9593]

@@sheilalopez3983 Yes, they are just basking in the comfort of group-think.

[@hoytbangs9425]

@@debrarymer " I love the poorly educated", tfg

[@sanfordcohen4310]

Anand and Elie Mystal are 2 of the foremost minds of our time. Both are fair and even minded intellectuals. 1 is more directly politically and ethically centered. The other more socio political and to an extent spiritually oriented. Both are human morality centered. What a great goal it would be to get many Americans of ALL races and persuasions to listen to them without an overly critical ear. Just listen and think/feel for yourself

[@loturzelrestaurant]

A Part 2 to this video here would be the Fashism-Coverage of 'Some More News', IF NOT the whole Channel. I mean, that Channel doesnt have 4 EPIC Videos on that 1 topic, but its a full Channel full of Stuff.

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

Only bigotry divides us and stops us all from having both peace and prosperity. The elite have used bigotry to pit us all against each other for thousands of years. All for their own profit, power, and even entertainment.

[@sempressfi]

@@loturzelrestaurant they do such an amazing job. It's not necessarily trying to reach people but to expose them and in that process it reaches those who stumbled into the far right. I see so many comments on their vids from people who had gotten sucked into Shapiro, Carlson, etc and then tried to I guess "hate watch" Some More News and ended up being changed by it 💙

[@hoytbangs9425]

Excellent scrutiny!

[@stelladonaconfredobutler9459]

@@loturzelrestaurant fascism

[@freedomofreligion3248]

Incredible insight, Jon. Anand. Thx. So, "talking" means expression. Art, speech, written word, banners, posters, banners,, music, symbolic flags, graphics, apparel, even hairstyles. In the '60's, we called our long hair our "freak flag", "freak" being s highly desirable trait.

[@SharonThoboisluvtolive]

All breathing free brains 🧠 survivalmodeto to be NOT HUNTED BY PETULANT BARBARITY WILL BE SUPREMISIST NATIONALISTS CHRISTIAN ZEALOTS AND CHARLATANS, LURING THE INNOCENT. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

[@kham6166]

Thank you for bringing this author on your show. I greatly enjoyed it and have to admit that he truly helped me to change my perspective, and did so in a positive, uplifting way which is rare these days. I think he is right. I had to chuckle when he mentioned moving to Portugal, because I also have been checking into moving abroad for the reasons discussed. Perhaps not giving up is a better path 😊. Thanks again and always enjoy your shows.

[@Chumpsdookiediaper]

But keep your options open, just in case.

[@amysusanmaclaughlin663]

Such an eloquent intelligent man bringing the perfect message America needs NOW!. I've been trying to comprehend what phenomenon makes humans want divisional, fascist leaders. What makes logical, common sense good people seemingly hypnotized to want this demise? Does anyone learn anything from history?

[@TheGuinever]

I keep looking for some magic potion that will eliminate IGNORANCE, RACISM, SEXISM, BIGOTRY, AVARICE, VIOLENCE, TESTOSTERONE even! I am sick of violent males raping and killing (YES, SOME females commit these crimes, but the VAST MAJORITY of violence, police car chases, MASS SHOOTINGS, etc are compliments of FRAGILE MALE EGOS.) Millions of women have an ENABLING problem and a DENIAL problem..TRUMP would NEVER have been elected in a DECENT, CIVILIZED country! Why is America SO FULL OF SELFISH PEOPLE????

[@robertvernon789]

Anand! Love hearing you speak man! Keep speaking Truth to Power.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

A Part 2 to this video here would be the Fashism-Coverage of 'Some More News', IF NOT the whole Channel. So many Video-Essays about everything from Droughts over Uvalde to Biden.

[@catherineglennon715]

Listened twice, then bought his book. What an insightful and balanced conversation. So much to think about. Thanks so much for this conversation and this series!

[@NikkLiberos]

FYI: This podcast is feeding my reading list and I love it.

[@maryahhaidery7986]

Thanks! Really great content! Made me feel a lot more hopeful about this crazy Democratic experiment we are living in. A note on the “deplorable/irredeemable” issue. I think that’s broadly correct because “deplorable” describes actions or behaviors but “irredeemable” describes a person. I’ve tried to change my own language to reflect this important difference when engaging with people with different beliefs. I now try harder to call out specific harmful words/actions/ideas/motives rather than calling out *people*. And it seems to work better. It’s a lot more effective to say “your statement might sound a little racist to people because x” rather than just say “you’re a racist!”. The latter accusation just blames or shames people but does absolutely nothing to help them understand why their statement might have been offensive and it does nothing to make them want to change. This is based on an idea by Brené Brown, a social worker and researcher. In broad terms, she says that if you call someone out for lying about something, then it gives them a chance to think about it, own it, and try not to lie in the future but if I call you a liar - if I imply that that “lying” is somehow the essence of who you are, then it is like saying you’re “irredeemable” and the reflexive response to that will never be self-reflection- it will always be a knee-jerk defense of the lie or the racist comment or whatever.

[@eleanor8652]

I think we share a similar worldview, in terms of believing it’s better to comment on behavior as opposed to labeling people. But I don’t think it matters to people who can’t take any form of critique…which is something I’ve noticed in a lot of right wingers. Anything but “yes, and” to their lies/smears is considered an attack. “You’re wrong about this.” or “That thing you said is hurtful.” hits their ears in the same way as “You’re evil and racist and stupid.”

[@maryahhaidery7986]

@@eleanor8652 Thanks! I appreciate that. And I generally agree although I think maybe “you’re wrong about this” can sound a bit condescending and judgmental (even if they are objectively wrong about whatever it is). Sometimes it’s more productive to be curious rather than judgmental and ask “why do you feel that way?” or “what makes you think that?” There might be some personal issue or experience that made them come to some conclusion you might not agree with and it might help you to see things differently as well. I think you’re right that there are some people who it might be impossible to have a civil discussion with or persuade but we’re living in scary times. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this much polarization and if we get to the point where we feel that we can’t talk to people, then the only option left is violence :(

[@eleanor8652]

@@maryahhaidery7986 You’re probably right about trying to frame things in a gentler way than “you’re wrong.” I believe in asking questions and trying to understand others’ perspectives…but I’m not sure I can continue to believe it’s productive with conservatives. “Why do you feel that way?” or “Where did you hear that?” always seems to be met with more spurious sources (“my brother heard it somewhere” or Facebook or Newsmax) and “agree to disagree” on objective reality. Reasonable people can disagree strongly, but this seems utterly beyond reason. I’m definitely curious about the book, but I’m also deeply skeptical. I fear we’re already past that point. The Republicans I grew up around were misinformed and conspiratorial-always talking about the day “when the government came for their Bibles”-but the violence they wanted was always theoretical. They seem to think that *now* is the time to act.

[@maryahhaidery7986]

@@eleanor8652 Yeah, I’ve been in similar positions. I do think that it’s often unproductive to talk about facts - because you’re right - they will always believe whatever news source tells them the things that they want to hear - that accord with their worldview. But liberals are a little like that too. It’s human nature. The difference is that more liberals tend to be college educated and although I definitely don’t think that a college degree makes a person more valuable as a person, I do think that learning about different points of view and meeting different kinds of people tends to make you more introspective and more humble. If you see the world in black and white, college can start making it look a bit more gray. Also liberals tend to be less religious and that can also lend to more epistemic humility. I often think that clinging to beliefs is a way that a lot of people deal with anxiety and uncertainty so when I ask questions, it’s less about trying to convince them that they’re wrong but as sort of a segue to try and figure out what their underlying anxiety or fear might be. When you start listening to them about that stuff, with empathy and without judgment, then you can sometimes get them to at least hear your perspective. And you’re probably not going to get them to change their minds - at least not right away - but you might be able to get them to hear your perspective. And that’s a good first step.

[@vafuthnicht7293]

Thank you Jon and Anand! As someone who's absolutely guilty of contempt and dismissal and painting the opposition with the same extremist brush, I needed this reminder and it gives me hope! Much love!

[@kellyjohnson6861]

such an important conversation! been grappling with this for a few years as a progressive activist with a son who got eaten by the pandemic and trump and the youtube dark hole. He was a bernie supporter until he was persuaded out of fear and anger to see the left as an enemy that hates him. i'm desperate to figure out how to reach him. thanks for the perspective.

[@grmpEqweer]

There's lots of heterosexual (or not) meat-eating, gun-owning white guys on the left. 🤷🏻 He can come back, we have cookies.

[@grmpEqweer]

Maybe he'd like Beau of the fifth column? Beau's looks are a tiny bit deceiving.

[@lhoward9593]

So sorry! It is like losing your son to a cult. I hope he finds his way out.

[@dianas514]

I can relate. My daughter voted for Obama twice. She was all in. We even talked about going to his 2nd inauguration. Fast forward to 2016 and she was all in for TFG. We had several heated discussions. I came to realize we are not on the same page and to stay away from political discussions. I think her spiral into TFG’s sphere was two fold. Her boyfriend is fully disabled and watches FOX etc religiously and her involvement in a new church. I’ve talked to a few of her friends who find it, like me, very sad. She’s a Hospice nurse with such a kind heart which makes it all the more puzzling that she would move into TFG’s camp. My granddaughters (32, 29 & 21) don’t agree with their mom and vote Dem which gives me hope. Hang in there. Hope it helps to know you are not alone.

[@debrabiderman4275]

Kelly a lot of young men got sucked from Bernie to Trump. Old men too. I saw it happening to my friends. Some of them bounced back after January 6th or Trumps handling of Covid. But some really have gone down the q hole. After listening to this I want to believe they are redeemable

[@suburbanhousewife40]

Anand summarizes the key remedies beautifully: fireside chats, irl community and pick fights that build more community. Thank you!

[@patriciarowan4104]

As a Cuban immigrant, this podcast is my therapy. We’ve always considered this country to be the land of opportunity for everyone. Grab that idea and run with it. Please. We’re still a wonderful place to live. Persuasion is the key. Thank you both.🥰

[@TerriKash-NEO]

Oh man Anand Giridharadas gives me hope. He has fabulous ideas I think people can really use, at least I can. I love the long interview format, letting interesting people get out paragraphs and chapters of thought rather than just 2 minutes between commercials on television.

[@autumnfiinch]

Wish I could like this 1000 times. This is the message the left/libs/dems need to internalize. Michael Brooks (RIP) was making this point years ago and helped me realize finger-wagging and snarky call-outs do absolutely nothing to create a better world. Talking to people and meeting them where they're at can -and does- work.

[@curtis5686]

This has been an incredibly inspiring interview. It’s been a long time since I left a pod episode actually feeling hopeful. I love it. Thank you both. More of this please. ❤

[@roxannelucky]

Very well done and so meaningful a discussion for these times. We give me faith in the youth!

[@cherylcardran1776]

It's so wonderful to hear you two talk about the great project we are undertaking here in the United States and how very difficult it is to bring together all kinds of people from everywhere to live together with respect and community and cooperation so that we can all share in the benefits and in helping each other through the hard times, always seeking Liberty and Justice for all.

[@tflg3257]

You mean the Wall Street, CIA project. Have these suckers eating bugs while you eat steak and shrimp.

[@vickipearson2643]

Always like to hear Anand talking. He has such a way to bring things "home" in our relationship with our society.

[@agny369]

I love this podcast, I’ve done my own independent verification of the problems we’re facing socially and it all stems from the ability to use the internet for social engineering . I’ve been trying to cut as much internet and media consumption out of my life as possible, and to view it with a skeptical lens when I do consume it. The contempt theory is real, I try to have conversations with ppl from the right wing and I know what they’re going to say before they even say it, even if I’ve never spoken with them before . The latest one I got was that I’m brainwashed because I believe Donald trump tried to overthrow democracy, I don’t know how you persuade people that have internalized the lied he’s told based off kernels of truth.

[@grmpEqweer]

The brainwashed people keep calling us brainwashed, then return to their **daily programming.** 😬 I get really tired of trying to debunk the same stupid tropes a bazillion times. Be well.

[@ivoted-5489]

@The Fires of Mount Doom If that is true, why so much heat on him right now? You should think about it. :)

[@lhoward9593]

Yes, I agree. When you point out the facts, they have a conspiracy ridden counter argument. I have a friend who is a flat-earther and Trump supporter. Nothing will talk him down.

[@grmpEqweer]

@The Fires of Mount Doom "...and corrupt politicians who will destroy anything or anyone to keep power do not exist." ...We see Trump as such a person. Please answer this: *Why do you believe he ABSOLUTELY ISN'T a person who will do anything for the sake of power?*

[@ivoted-5489]

@The Fires of Mount Doom I should have been more detailed and said that I was explicitly talking about the justice system, not politicians. Does that make a difference to you?

[@PastorTheGathering]

What an important subject. I am a pastor and love hearing this discussion. People are redeemable! Keep it coming.

[@jamesreis3618]

You're so correct. I was a gay, pro choice liberal and yet Jesus changed my heart and mind. With God all things are truly possible. 😁

[@lucibjlb]

First, I'd like to say I LOVE Anand Giridharadas. I think he's brilliant. I remember the first time I saw him several years ago. I initially thought he was pretty radical; perhaps, a little angry. (But, he was always right.) Then, he's become more refined. His ideas haven't changed much, but he's become far more inclusive to better describe all of Americans' challenges. He's grown. Nicely done. Regardless, what ya'll are talking about is salesmanship. I've been in sales for over 40 years. Sales is different from marketing, advertising, promotions, public relations, or any kind of mass media communications (something that social media falls into). Sales is one on one interpersonal communications and relationship building. You don't close a sale by alienating the other individual. You mostly listen, then help him understand how your solution will personally benefit him. This takes time. And it takes a lot of listening. The opportunity we have is that right now, the Trumpists aren't doing any listening themselves. At the end of the day, if by chance the Republican Party sweeps Congress, I say let them pass their bills, or do absolutely nothing while the country declines even further. As the country is declining, the Democrats should be canvassing continuously by simply talking to and listening to people in all 50 states. If the Democrats did that, we would be able to easily close the sale in 2024.

[@leahrivera3859]

I love this podcast and I love Anand!

[@wendywilson-fall3973]

So true!!! The strategy is right on... will folks be convinced??

[@deborahlukovich2193]

This is the work I’m trying to do but with people in general. Encourage self reflection especially in people who think they’re aware.

[@hulaharvest1]

great conversation! I agree. Sometimes the focus on specific groups appears divisive to others who may not belong to that group. Then it's labeled as canceling. Labels can be challenging. They are necessary for claiming rights and value, but also can be alienating for others who aren't in that group and may not understand or relate.

[@lunarose9568]

Anand is such a great writer and intellectual thinker thank you for having him on your show. ❤

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Part 2 to this video here would be the Fashism-Coverage of 'Some More News', IF NOT the whole Channel.

[@azusa9963]

I love this conversion. I love this podcast. Thank you Jon and Anand ✌️🙏❤️ I will go get Anand's new book.

[@Zaffy1964]

So enjoyed this conversation. Feeling more hopeful. I'm off to read The Persuaders to see what I can learn...

[@cal2780]

Thank you so much for this podcast! Anand, I have so much respect for you. I will buy your book. So much common sense.

[@pauldockree9915]

Two great minds. Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people. - Admiral Hymann G. Rickover (1900-1986)

[@vickimariestolsen1979]

Super grateful to hear this one, super up-lifting. Can't wait to read the book.

[@michaelengel7002]

Thank you for this enlightening conversation

[@LioKaufman]

Love this interview. Found it very optimistic and invigorating. Nice direction. There is only one point i wish you guys would have asked and addressed... And that is the question of how much of the persuasion is due to generational change and how much do people change themselves. I think that would have cemented your entire case, or addressed a weakness and talked about how that factors in. But otherwise, very good show. Thanks.

[@suzibarlow3611]

With luck, and I say this at 70 while in yet another change period, people don't change, but they do evolve. The "who am I becoming?" Reflection is always there. I am the same 5 year old in a worn body, but feel I am still evolving.

[@LioKaufman]

@@suzibarlow3611, in what way do you feel like you are still evolving? Could you articulate it?

[@janinemeier7201]

I have been craving this conversation !

[@nightcited1600]

Once again, great conversation and guest. You both gave me more hope than I've had in a long time.

[@kymbartley8104]

This was a phenomenal interview. I have a Masters in Rhetoric and Logic, so I've long held the idea that the art of persuasion is a vital skill. I have to counter that it's hard to have good faith conversations when the other person is using wielding the language of disgust. (They say the Dems are evil - whoa!)

[@mteacher9811]

I have a similar degree (philosophy) and have been spending a lot of time thinking about "good faith" vs "bad faith" in how we engage with others relative to what are our duties and obligations in those kinds of discussions and public squares. I think good faith requires (among other things) a resistance to the language of contempt and dismissal.

[@Techlax43]

Man y’all’s student loans must be wild for such useless degrees.

[@dfuher968]

As a European, I would then ask, if u could plz use that when talking to us and about us as well. Coz its pretty insulting to be constantly used as the "bad" example to show, how nice and respectful and progressive etc u are, much better than those Europeans, and u Americans (almost exclusively on the left, coz ur right just dont give a shit, theyre hateful and denigrating shits to every1) usually speak about us in at best condescending tones, often making outright racist, bigotted, insulting claims about us, that u can technically claim arent lies, coz u just dont bother learning the facts, u just use whatever makes u look good, facts be damned. 1 of the worst of the many many times, Ive experienced this, is the repeated claim, that we're racist, coz we'll take in the Ukrainians, but we wouldnt take in the Syrians, so RACIST. First of all, just proclaiming an entire continent of over 50 different countries with different cultures and languages and different subsets of population, that is the very definition of racism. Coz apparently, just coz Im European, Im a racist. Also, its really galling, coz its factually not just false, but a gigantic lie, that could easily be learned, if any1 was interested in actual facts. Ofc we take the Ukrainians, theyre our neighbors. If ur neighbors were fleeing a raping, torturing, murderous army intend on destroying them, wouldnt u take them in? Also, the part about the Syrians has been a disgusting lie perpetuated by the American left for several years. U Americans took between 22k and 23k Syrian refugees. In the EUs 27 countries we took 4 million. MILLION. Germany alone took 1.5 million. Yet Americans keep claiming, that we refused Syrian refugees, and its coz we're all racist. Well, US 22k, EU 4M. Who exactly are the racists? Frankly, do ur part or stfu. Yeah, thats not good rhetoric. But u should also know, that ur rhetoric can be harmful enough and false enough and insulting enough, that u cause that answer. I applaud ur sentiment. Unfortunately, almost no other American seems to share it. Even Jon and Anand made a couple of offhand slurs about us in their discussion. And yeah, my reaction is extra strong, coz I go here to get away from that and get some honest US news and discussion, so it hits extra hard to meet the prejudices here as well.

[@Krazie-Ivan]

@@dfuher968 ...see your point, but the observation of non-white refugees being a partial driving force behind rising white-nationalist reactionary political power can't be overlooked. It may not be you or I personally, but there are racists motivated by these occurances (or even just the thought of it). I live in a state that borders Mexico, so this line of thinking isn't new to me. When someone in NY says we're a racist state, I can't dispute it. Can't be angry at them either. I know I don't contribute, & are what some call "anti-racist", so they aren't talking about me personally. Racism is everywhere, including NY, but it's also fair to acknowledge the effects/depth are not equally distributed; In the 50's, it was "better" to be profiled & redlined than indentured & lynched.

[@kellenmills5391]

Great conversation, thank you! The point comparing our zeitgeist to children of a dysfunctional family is a way I've thought of us too. The responsibility parent often gets blamed for trying too hard just to keep the peace. Instead, it is an opportunity for the responsibility parent to speak the truth, behave authentically and with integrity while pushing back with conviction and real solutions to the dysfunction.

[@gretchengasco9376]

Great program you are saying, and sharing so many things that I've been in my heart and have not been able to vocalize. Thank you.

[@gretchengasco9376]

I have in my heart

[@mitziewheeler8517]

On social media when I'm trying to get people to understand I try to use facts, when they tell me I'm wrong I tell them hey you're on your computer, phone so look it up. There was one person that first kept arguing with me but I stayed calm and didn't go off on her. One of the things was about how under god was not put into the pledge until the 1950s because of the red scare. She also was going off saying how we on the left are always arguing and being mean. To that I told her to go to the start of the conversation and read it with a open mind and tell me who was actually arguing and being mean. About 10 minutes later came back on and apologized. She looked up about the pledge and found I was right on that, she also apologized because she read the whole conversation and realized I didn't yell or be mean, she was the one yelling. That was the start of being able to talk to her and help her see the danger of what was happening. Also the platforms themselves especially FB are set up to cause the bad kind of confederation.

[@Alex88148]

Great interview. You know what the first step is right? To returning to a place where persuasion is still possible? Be friends with or at least remain respectful of people from the other side of the political aisle. People won’t stop to ponder another point of view if it’s yelled at them by someone who thinks they’re deplorable. But if it’s a friend or family member, someone they look up to or care about or have a certain level of respect for - they’re always going to be more open to another point of view and are less likely to die on the proverbial hill. It’s why, even as a liberal, I don’t believe in people like AOC or Hillary Clinton who treat all political rivals with contempt and write off their voters as trolls and thugs. If you want to change the minds of people around you then you have to be a positive and dignified embodiment of that political view and not a prideful, partisan hack. You also have to accept that there are good and bad people on both sides of mainstream politics within the realms of acceptable speech. It doesn’t make you a better person just because you believe your values are more progressive.

[@RachelT444]

I think this is a great conversation, and I agree that people can change! My problem with persuading them comes when they are actively harming me. How do I protect myself from family members and others who actively harm me because of who I am? How can I protect myself and persuade them?

[@erinmac4750]

I hear you, similar situation. First and foremost, you need to protect yourself. If you are in a vulnerable place/situation, find a way to change that so you're protected. If you need help doing that, ask for help from friends, support group, agencies, whoever. You have to be in a grounded situation yourself in order reach out/persuade that group. If you have your support network, they'll help boost you spirits when you need it. Also, I recommend Beau of the Fifth Column's channels. He has a unique way of discussing things that may help you figure out ways to reach these people you care about without putting yourself in the crosshairs. Sounds like you've got heart and know what's worth standing up for. Much luck!✌️😎🍀🇺🇦🫂💛

[@trishaferrand1395]

I will be following Anand now. And I hope to learn more about how we are going to find all these individuals who will read and implement Anand's playbook. In the 60's there were Protests, Sit-ins and Teach-ins. This required inspiring leadership and practical, action oriented trainers, but also the feeling that what was at stake was an immediate matter of life or death. So success depended upon those willing to show up in person and risk, at minimum, being tear gassed, battered and hauled off to jail. These included student organizations, Vietnam War protesters and draftees, and the Black Power movement. I struggle to imagine how to begin this with today's culture of passive commenting and tweeting, and the even more massively passive, liking. and retweeting. And Covid is far from over.

[@TravellerDM007]

I say, do it with massive consumer power. Follow the money. I think of what MLK and Gandhi and Havel and many other did with their BOYCOTTS and strikes. And massive takedown/takeover of alternate 'media.' Propaganda rules (Orwell was right.) People feel powerless (and you can't argue people out of their feelings -- only direct it wrongly). People feel hopeless and angry, overwhelmed, tuned out, busy -- and are persuaded it is best...to go with a strongman -- too often - to get results, to compete, etc! They need to feel powerful - which one can do alone, I guess, with a gun and threats and 'othering' of 'the other' and with paranoia, conspiracy theory, and with being the victim grievance....or you can TOGETHER WITH OTHERS -- follow the money and DEPRIVE and THREATEN the powerful with MASSIVE peaceful NONCOOPERATION. Alone we are powerless, together NOT!! Consumer and labor (boycotts and strikes, etc) power! Divide and conquer is the way tyrants rule -- and with massive threats and propaganda. What if the people you 'other' and make subhuman are the very people who can help you break the powerhold (and back) of the elite, corrupt, amoral, untransparent corporations and the powerful few pulling the strings on everyone? who would do the quaking and anger and powerlessness 'suffering', passivity, surrender then? Remember how Bloomberg & 'the powerful' few - felt about Occupy Wall Street? Teach people about their own power and strength in numbers to pressure the powerful -- with money/consumer and labor power, with peaceful MASSIVE noncooperation.

[@katsong3302]

and prior, women suffrage movement. These were not accepted by society at large and have yet to be, women are not equal citizens. Yet without public demonstrations would change even have entered this society? Public movements like March for Our Lives and the 2016 March for Women (Pink Hats) let All of us see and feel less alone. In the Real, please, online is not an accurate venue and too many trolls both foreign and domestic.

[@novitriolhere]

This was so wonderful and the first time I've heard something in media that matches my thoughts and desires about communication in difficult situations

[@patriciaveech5393]

Wow! What a great conversation. Lots to unpack here. Thanks to you both!!

[@MargaretPinard]

"Contempt and Dismissal" great insights, straight off.

[@kcuzz4091]

Yes, Anand, and now it seems many of us are no longer speaking with one another which scares me a bit. It's okay to argue a point with one another just don't let it escalate into something violent. We used to discuss our politics and even argue about them, but we didn't become ugly about it or violent.

[@ilianamarisolromero7816]

Maybe because some factors have changed, like there are more people now so it's making us question more. I think that we can all remember how to listen with an open mind, and how to exchange that information and dynamics, but we definitely have recognized that in some of us, there were beliefs that were just waiting for the right moment to come up and express repressed frustration and anger.

[@phillipsprangiii3112]

I love these guys

[@janeanf123]

Such a great interview. Thanks !

[@sophiehiii]

Yessssss loved this interview!

[@Jackie371]

11:50 Best thing Anand said. If we don't figure it out together, then someone is going to come in & resolve it however they want. One reason that it's nice to see more people getting out there & voting.

[@tsuritsa3105]

One of our more serious problems with respect to civic discourse is the long-running thread of contempt for intellectualism, expertise, and education that runs through the American electorate. When being educated is equated with elitism to the extent that a subset of the body politic assumes if someone is highly educated or promotes education they possess power that is inherently corrupt. It seems to me that there is an almost reflexive fear of the educated and of education that draws on a narrative of educated elites attempting to keep uneducated people down. This narrative strikes me as very carefully constructed. People have been led to believe that the "intellectual elites" will stop at nothing to keep working class America down, using any means whatsoever that is available to them including indoctrinating children with corrosive, dangerous and frightening ideas about *identity*. This idea, this terror, is a fundamental building block on which so many positions are made. It's not an accident that people like Christopher Rufo take academic concepts like CRT and paint them as part of a ploy; identity is the chosen battleground because it encapsulates so many things the right wing needs in order to maintain their own claim to legitimacy, however warped. The story of America is one of starts and stops, high ideals, successes, failures and a dream of equality that we haven't managed to live up to. The beauty of America doesn't lay in perfection or even the possibility of perfection; rather it is found in America's determination to press forward relentlessly down the path of a *more perfect* union. America's mistakes can range from the simple to the horrific, just like every other country on earth. There's no exceptionalism in that. If we want to have some claim to the notion of America as exceptional it has to be based on the ability to get back up after a mistake, dust ourselves off and try again and then again and again, knowing perfection will always remain out of reach but grasping as much of it as we can every single day. it's a hard creed to hold to. It demands that we as citizens look at our country critically, recognizing her flaws and seek to change them. It demands we stay informed, that we participate. The concept striving for a "more perfect union" that will never realize ultimate perfection implies a lot of work, every day, without fail, forever. That's a very difficult commitment for some people to make when they are struggling with the problems in their own immediate lives and can't see how that goal impacts their immediate problems. I think for many there is an underlying sense that they should be doing more to better the nation but they can't find the time between finding a job to replace the union position they lost when it went overseas and trying to figure out how they are going to help their mom or dad who is too young to qualify for Medicare, just a little too "rich" to qualify for Medicaid, can't go on their insurance and was just diagnosed with a heart condition pay for their meds. Then someone in a position of authority, maybe in government or maybe in the news, steps up and tells them they don't need to worry about a more perfect union because America was great before the intellectuals hatched a plan to seize control of everything at the expense of blue-collar America. If you fundamentally believe that education and expertise are being used not in your best interest but instead to push you further and further down by increasingly overt means you become incredibly vulnerable to every kind of propaganda, to every malicious lie. If intellectualism itself is an enemy being wielded against the population then experts obviously can't be trusted. When experts say things like COVID is real, transgender people are the gender they say they are, systemic racism has negatively impacted and continues to impact the country on every level sinces its inception and so on those words not only serve as a reminder to the "more perfect union" we are not living up to, leaving the people hearing about these problems possibly feeling guilt or fear, but they are primed to think that instead of just being told what science is discovering they are listening the villain's monologue late in the third act where the villain lays out how they are going to destroy the heroes. For most people if their subconscious presents them with a choice between feeling guilty or feeling like the scrappy protagonist facing insurmountable odds at the end of an action film, nearly everyone is going to choose the latter. I think it's really important that we do understand that the majority of the people on the other side not only see themselves as the heroes, they very much want that to be the case. Of course, this philosophy puts them in something of a bind. If intellectualism and education are being used against them they can't engage with the institutions that provide education to level the playing field. They are forced to turn to a different source, some place they can rely on to credibly inform them of the *truth*, with no hidden agenda. For the propagandists, this has to be an ideal state of mind for their targets to be in since the quality of information itself is no longer the point being considered, only the source. This is why introducing facts contrary to what many of these people believe is so ineffective. They would not say they reject the notion of facts, rather they would say that there is a wide ranging conspiracy to distort those facts to serve the needs of the educated elite to such an extent that for all intents and purposes the truth has become malleable. This presents a couple of key problems if you want to persuade people not only to new point of view, but of anything really. Anti-intellectualism is not new; it has been a part of the American experiment from the beginning and like a cancer it has metastasized through the entire body politic. We have now reached a point where this dangerous trend is not merely useful to a dodgy politician trying to get elected despite his record, but rather it poses an existential threat to the nation. Our challenge is to find a way to break through the wall of anti-intellectualism and insert some truth, but that wall has been fortified with fear and conspiracy theory. Until we can do this, though, none of our facts, none of our arguments, will matter since they will be perceived as, at best coming from someone who has been duped by the intelligentsia or at worst an active attempt to continue the oppression of the working class by the intellectuals. I wish I had some clever idea to present here, some solution. Sometimes talking to people on a case by case basis does work. I don't want to leave the impression that I don't think that's possible. But if we are to persuade large groups of people we first must confront America's fundamental problem with the value of accurate, verifiable information itself. I've gone on for about five million years now, so I'm going to cut myself off here. There are a lot of other things to be said on the topic, such as the need to define what facts actually *are* versus what they are perceived to be by the public, particularly in the arena of scientific understanding and other similar concepts but I think I've made the point I wanted to.

[@pattiderosamusic3292]

Thank you for this excellent conversation. Getting the book asap! ❤️

[@Michael-nz7jr]

Have never heard of either of these guys before today but I'm glad they popped up on my feed.

[@Andrea.1tree]

I may resemble this perspective. I fought to be compassionate to the ignorant maga propaganda rhetoric. After five years, or so I finally began to believe exactly what you said. Me 60-40, and them 100-0. It’s difficult to believe the good in people when all you see is the angry, ugly side. I will need to watch this a few times. It’s very relevant to my current journey. Thank you.

[@sweetsue4204]

Many thanks. 🙏

[@mosesaguirre2392]

Genuine compassion is powerful force for change!

[@PastorTheGathering]

I am not sure you know how powerful this podcast has been. It truly is concept changing. I will not only read the book, I will change how I act. I have thrown too many right wing folks away. How terrible as a Christian pastor. No one is a throw away. I need to learn more about being a persuader. Well done. Thank you for truly caring about our country and not just a party. WOW. Yes. Amen

[@BottleConcreteBlond]

He is so brilliant. Thank you for this discussion.

[@dwyeth1]

Everyone should watch this!!!

[@allyson87]

On the point about marriage counseling, therapists like myself have been making these points for a very long time… but out of a combination of mental compartmentalization, undervaluing emotions, and misogyny, most people just rolled their eyes and laughed. I’m getting really tired of being Cassandra’ed

[@Techlax43]

Then stop acting like one!

[@allyson87]

@@Techlax43 lol, what? Do you know the story of Cassandra? Not exactly someone you “act like”

[@cindyyoung5098]

Bravo!

[@Stephen-Montefinese]

Another good show.

[@juliescheibe1837]

Thank you for this discussion. It was very thought provoking. It helped remind me that I need to be aware of my actions and comments to those who express a different opinion than mine. Over the past several years dismissal and contempt have been my go to response. Time to try something different.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Part 2 to this video here would be the Fashism-Coverage of 'Some More News', IF NOT the whole Channel.

[@dorisbelleisle646]

Wonderful!!!

[@RevLetaLee]

Excellent conversation!

[@lindascanlan6317]

Adore this man

[@jaelo2314]

Wonderful conversation. I learn something every day. It's important

[@talimn]

Very necessary discussion, fully agree with Anand's outlook on where we should be headed.

[@Blackrosedame]

Great conversation!

[@ravenbelote1801]

Enjoyed this. Thank you!

[@thomasbeltran5417]

Love this guy ❤️

[@nancyseiler2844]

Anand is gifted!

[@lisedietz]

Great conversation. I feel like I have a new, hopeful way of thinking and feeling about our great nation. “Great Nation” not being a term I might have used before listening. Thanks.

[@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS]

Great conversation. Thanks.

[@CalAndAly]

He’s the best!

[@oliver9465]

Great and interesting discussion.

[@jbyanx]

I definitely get today's talk and makes a whole lot of sense ..I have relatives who are election deniers I have known these people my whole life and I know their very good people and they are educated with jobs so I would not say environment enforced their way of thinking in any case they are the minority in our community. They didn't all wake up one day and decided not to trust our election process.we had 2 hard-core deniers an uncle who is a veteran actually served 2 tours and ever since he came back from his last deployment we noticed he had changed barely found no pleasure in anything he did but spent alot of time on line but no one cared to know what he was doing on line he just started keeping to himself more with random outbusts enything negative was noticed by him , then my 2nd relative denie same thing he was on line alot and he understood and was in agreement with our veteran denier on pretty much everything so these two could seat out side and both see a pink sky while the rest see a blue sky you could never ever convince them or let alone let them hear an explanation as to why they're in the wrong but they succeed in recruiting 2 more and when the 2 joined their way of thinking they became even worse in their thinking I don't even think some voted for Trump but something happened that all of a sudden Trump walked on water we with regular perverted eyes and traitors to the country can't see what they see .. So this thing is bigger and more dangerous than we know and running every office of authority in the land is their #1 priority and only God knows what their plan and hope people take this very seriously...not all deniers are the the people media try to interview and portray them in a certain light, their normal talking groomed and responsible 9-5 employed folk you maybe having a beer and watch football with you can nit tell nit all act abnoxious so that's the start ti stop putting them in a box and think you would know who they are if you saw them come your way

[@lllazyoli]

I don't think being patient helps. Remember, these people meet and talk to each other on a regular basis and nobody goes "Wait a minute... the other guys here have totally different explanations of what has happened on Jan. 6." It's because they don't WANT to think otherwise. It's not a problem of logic but of emotions. That's why opposing conspiracy theories work perfectly fine with each other. It's the side you're on that matters. In fact people like Biden and Obama tried desperately to include the "deplorables". And look where that got us! Yeah, I obviously don't support violence but at some point you gotta face the facts as well when dealing with right-wingers or you're starting to hurt your own cause. Yes, never stop talking to them but don't expect anything and don't give them an inch politically!

[@bingoskies8564]

Thank you. I've also been doing this evolving work. You put it so well. Let's make manifest in all our spheres of interest. While the word itself didn't come up, love is braided throughout.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Part 2 to this video here would be the Fashism-Coverage of 'Some More News', IF NOT the whole Channel.

[@Val_Emrys]

Really excellent discussion with a lot to think about.

[@thegrumpyoldmechanic6245]

I wish I shared the optimism here, but Weare dealing with people who deny reality, who actively reject the careful, peer reviewed research of recognized experts.

[@katherinecompton6591]

Enjoyable, interesting, thank you.

[@GrrThinkB4YouSpeak]

Good conversation. It has given me much to think about. I do think the fear of online harassment that bleeds over into meat space. It chills attempts to reach out. Like if someone known for holding strong leftist views, were to try pursation of more conservative individuals by inviting other to identify with them and showing that there are some similarities in thinking about issues but why you came to a different came to a different conclusion that could be taken out of context by bad faith or low effort actors on either side who have far greater reach and used to define a brand for you that doesn't match either who you are or who you want to be. The vast majority of individuals are highly vulnerable to being branded by a selection on online elite who have managed to build a following and it can easily blow over in to the real world space if some influencer rightly or wrongly decides you are the villain of the moment

[@erinmac4750]

I don't have time for a more detailed reply, so I'd suggest that if you feel vulnerable talking about things online that you find a place that's pretty safe for discussion. The one I've found to be the most helpful for me is the comment section on Beau of the Fifth Column's channels. People there have an openness and understanding, as well as generally keeping the trolls in check. Plus, Beau, himself, offers examples of wats to approach things that seems to help put things into perspective. I know it can be pretty hostile in the "interwebs" these days, so that's why I seek out sites)channels that don't foster trolls or haters. Be well and stay safe 🍀✌️😎🌎

[@MRICCI8]

Excellent

[@2012Cheetah]

GREAT show! Both of you are my heroes!✌️🫶🌎🪬🇺🇸

[@2012Cheetah]

What GORGEOUS silver hair!!!!!

[@gb4375]

Being a bold apologist for that which you believe deeply is the only way to live in integrity.

[@davidlickiss1609]

One of my favorite humans ever!

[@patcomerford5596]

It takes an incredible amount of patience to persuade the 'stupid' and I do not have that patience. So I salute these two guys, and everybody else, for their patient willingness to persuade these 'ignorant' people.

[@twilfits]

I remember her admitting the slogan was off a Snapple lid. Great podcast I always learn and affirm

[@nikolaiivanovich2094]

This is a very interesting and insightful interview that should be much more broadly viewed

[@hahahahaha662]

Keep hope alive!

[@katushawatkins1922]

I love hearing from Anand and Neal Katyal more than any other men on the 'news' today. They are both extremely intelligent and erudite, and just lovely human beings. AOC is my favorite woman to listen to.

[@deborahlukovich2193]

Yes! The root of what extreme right wingers are angry about is reflected in what progressives are already aware of. Corruption basically. We all agree on that but the manipulation of the voters on the right and the hanger keeps them from seeing straight. So how to talk with them in a way that’s not condescending is key.