What is the BEST Army? | Warhammer the Old World | Square Based

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On this very special episode Rob and Val dive into some homegrown stats! From the team that brings you the most comprehensive AoS Stats available, we are now tracking the results from every Warhammer the Old World GT (5 rounds or more). Behold the difference 5 rounds brings to the emerging meta and discover a couple of our advanced stats along the way.
thehonestwargamer.com/warhamm...
0:00 Introduction
01:35 A History Of Warhammer Stats
09:31 How Val is Doing
15:11 How Rob is Doing
28:48 Where to find the Old World Stats!
29:31 Methodology
35:22 What Armies Have the best Win Rates?
47:55 What Armies are being Played?
01:07:19 POSITIVE WIN RATE POTENTIAL (% of times that an army gets 3+ wins)
01:13:28 Faction Breakdown (Wins, Losses, Draws and total games played)
01:21:18 James Ramsey's Vampire Counts
01:24:55 Some Cool Looking Armies from the Weekend
01:31:09 Wrap up and Final Thoughts
Links to the podcast only version on all platforms:
squarebasedpodcast.podbean.com/
#warhammer #warhammertheoldworld #warhammerfantasy #warhammercommunity #squarebassed #theoldworld #warhammerpodcast #thehonestwargamer

[@MordianGlory]

As an Empire Player, all I can say is playing ToW right now is very reminiscent of the old Mark of Chaos game trailer 😅

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

As the dude once said "it's down there somewhere lemme have another look"

[@teenytinymaracas33]

Mordian Glory Square Based crossover when? A man can dream right.

[@LoyalWatcher055]

It's fine! Don't worry! As the Empire, we always lose the first two battles before we finally defeat the bad guys at great cost in the big climatic last-ditch siege defence at the end!

[@highmarshalbalian680]

The best army is the friends we made along the way

[@rakankattan4003]

Completely agree!

[@knedoshane]

The best army is the troops we "impress" along the way... -Chaos Dwarfs

[@SwopetheDope]

HERETIC!

[@Flummoxed_Buffoon87]

@@knedoshaneI was so impressed by a Chaos dwarf army, they gave me an immediate internship with indefinite employment. What a swell bunch 👍

[@TheMonstercreator1]

*Moves friend in to screen the dragon*

[@MediocreHobbies]

hey guys just wanted to say i never really engaged with your AOS content i just felt we came at that game from different places. but i am hooked on this i feel you passion for this game shinning through and im here fro every episode, keep it up guys

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Proof that throwing shit at the wall until something sticks works.

[@MediocreHobbies]

@@SquareBasedOldWorld hahhahahaha sounds like my channel.

[@gbirdnonsense1084]

collab! collab! collab!

[@SF-wx1bu]

I haven't played, I'm painting like crazy, one day I'll read the rules but when I listen to you gents I feel like a tournament winner. Yay me.

[@BlahWes0023]

This is me.

[@LordBilliam]

Me too. My Bretonnians can't march to war in grey

[@fatboynoslim6]

Thank you so much for featuring my army at the end, I've got such a huge smile on my face!!

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Awww glad that made your day!

[@IceJoust]

@fatboynoslim6 it's an amazing set! Beautiful work

[@Andy2D6]

Rob being amazed and bamboozled by diorama basing is a sign he needs to look at some Kings of War armies.

[@theodddore]

Thank you so much for adding timestamps on the video!

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Literally said to Rob that every time I don't I get complaints. So thank you for the positive reinforcement!

[@navlogan1754]

Just back from walking my dog, and listening my way through your podcasts on Spotify. I was laughing so much during the one where "GW had found some poor guy's early work in a drawer from 2008 and released it " podcast that the dog was giving me stange looks. Keep up the great work

[@NateFinch]

Really appreciate all your Old World content. I played WHFB in the 2000s and then dropped off after I got married with kids. By the time I wanted to pick it up again.... it was gone. I was so devastated. Earlier this year I just happened to look up the state of WHFB, since they had been saying "we'll bring it back" for YEARS... and all of a sudden, hey, guess what, it's out! So now I'm furiously 3D printing a new Wood Elf army (sold a lot of my old models, alas)... and can't wait to wheel and march and flank again!

[@eviltables7235]

there are chapters, amazing!

[@CorporalTunnel]

Thank you guys so much for compiling all these stats in a pleasing way. square based for life

[@thebigcommon1967]

I fucking love these guys. That is all

[@ilovecokeslurpees]

I would like to see a deep dive into Lizardmen. The Seraphon minis are so awesome and should be promoted to be used in TOW (rebased on proper squares). More people need to be playing them, and I will put up my square based painted Lizardmen every chance I get to get that message out.

[@stephenmercerProductions]

I normally find tabletop tactics a bit too much but I did watch the game and it was great! I think Val improved it greatly. Sometimes I feel like they are trying to make a 'carry on' film at the same time as the battle report.

[@TheBE730]

This, and they all have high squeaky voices!

[@danielmashford8920]

Agree TTT is a difficult watch (or listen!)

[@graffenwalker542]

Great video guys! Love the content Thanks for the timestamps ;)

[@ClaudiosCollection]

The R & V Power Hour! Let's GOOOO! 🎲 🎲

[@MiniatureRealms]

Super interesting stat chat there, I hope these are received well and don’t get buried under the stuff that’s already out there.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

In fairness - I think all datasets fall squarely under the "food for thought" category of content : ). We're early days yet, but I still think it's super important to produce so that we build that idea of there being a meta game that's alive and in the world.

[@MiniatureRealms]

@@SquareBasedOldWorldI’m completely with you there, and I think you both represent that very well. I’m a very casual player, and love a big narrative themed game as well, but I think this kind of data and discussion is super useful for the wider community. I’ve also always found it really interesting, even during periods when I’m not getting to events myself. Looking forward to where it all sits in 12 months time.

[@josephjustice4553]

10,000 views and rising! Great job Rob and Val!

[@salv.6948]

I think I tune into this just to watch Val dance in the intro!!! What will he do next week!!! LFG

[@blakemyers643]

Loving my ogres so far with a very unoptimized list with multiple units of bulls and a iron guy brick. Even though its not ideal its played well enough to have fun which is more then i can say for most of my gw experiences. Looking forward to being done with my gnoblars and gorgers glad ogres seem to have some play. Love the pod and that you guys are trying to add actual context to numbers and why armies are or arent peforming.

[@matthewsmith995]

Really enjoy and agree with your philosophy

[@RybackStun]

Square Blessed with another fantastic episode!

[@Tulkash01]

I’m going to comment right away: dwarves are the best, even if their numbers suck. Superior beards always win! 😂

[@ginjasteve4435]

I remember from times gone by a poem about the only good stunty. Such a literary classic!

[@cavemansam8400]

Dwarves aren’t even the best kind of Dwarf..

[@kononamae5124]

@@cavemansam8400 THATS GOIN IN THE BOOK UMGI!

[@Tulkash01]

@@ginjasteve4435the greenskinned author got excised by the book of grudges in the end…

[@Ulfhednir9]

Cant wait to see the unit meta breakdown. that will be the most useful data for list building. Some thing may be tricky like Infernal Guard for Chaos dwarfs will be in 100% of the list, not because they are good but because you are force to take them.

[@GodrockTadaka]

Love the vid. Love the analysis. Especially the percent to go positive. What a great incentive structure to take a “weaker” army and give them a tourney try.

[@jacobhouseman7448]

The idea of a game’s story being driven by tournament results has been done before! Matt Colville has an excellent video about Legend of the Five Rings-look it up if that idea interests you.

[@nurglematthew893]

So nice, we listen twice or tres

[@Leviticushateford]

Great show!

[@Emanon...]

Had our first games of ToW this weekend. It was fun, but really messy because half the rules we misremembered from 7th or 8th edition.

[@ginjasteve4435]

Lads I love the content you’re putting out. It’s one of the few things I found myself actively refreshing KZbin on the channel to check I hadn’t missed anything. Then it hit me, if I join Patreon I’ll get announcements so I did. Those rules discussions though. I’m not sure I understand anything anymore! They are talking about things in discord I’d never considered! Anyway I’ll be playing my first games at an event at the teams event this weekend so there better be a nice looking wooden spoon for us cos we aren’t leaving the event with many wins!

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Naw you'll be fine. Much of the rules discussion is a thought exercise and not much more

[@richarddunstan447]

Nice to see that my losses with skaven, vampire counts and empire against my brother’s beastmen aren’t completely down to me being a terrible general (it’s probably a big factor though).

[@rynbrtn]

Another banger episode, boys. Keep it uuuuuup! Just wanna say that I've been trying to make Empire work for a while, and I'm 99% sure I've cracked the code. Start printing the MEGA hats, cause those stonks are goin up!

[@IceJoust]

Loved this breakdown, but especially loved the army showcase! I do feel like there's a strong Faction Loyalty in TOW that maybe I don't feel in 40k..

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

They are all my children.

[@TheGeneralGarcia]

I also feel that a lot of our players are older and are better at playing with others at events. The last 7-8 years playing at 40k events have been a blast.

[@nurglematthew893]

This is literally amazing. Where are these stats so I can motorboat them!?

[@ginjasteve4435]

You good sir are a silky voiced gem of a Warhammer player! Keep up your support of all the cool channels!

[@nurglematthew893]

​Steeevvve Guy, Cheers

[@RyanF1313]

I really like the part (and learned a lot) where you talked about the vampire count army. I would to see more like this. It could be fun or powerful army builds.

[@teamkeogh]

Dear Rob and Val. Your intro bangs! And Val always sells it like we're clubbing in 2008. My Question. Is this a song that I could listen to somewhere? Be sick to run to it while I'm exercising. Your humble listener - TeamKeogh.

[@RiftsCommando]

I would love to see some of these winning lists.

[@avocadoarmadillo7031]

Great content, where did you get all this data? I have an inclination to try and scrape deck lists, then analyze win rates in terms of the portions of points dedicated to each unit type. Maybe it would bring a bit of granularity to the performance within factions

[@musictheorywizard4799]

Respirator masks are really impressive. I remember I was spraying a house with the painter friend of mine and my girlfriend said she could smell paint on my breath so I started using a respirator and that cured that also what does Melly mean? I’m here in Vancouver BC Canada, and I would like to use it correctly when Describing my black orc blocks, great as always thanks again😊

[@calvinnefzger3440]

The Empire player's experience very much mirrors my own tournament experience with them. Brought wizards, cav, and artillery. Managed to go 2-1 but the last game half my army just ran away.

[@valheffelfinger6521]

I guess they felt like they'd already accomplished enough

[@allancarey2604]

Just took a long drink from “ahem” Juggz, now this :)

[@Slothasaur]

Y'all are the best, really like how you present the stats and I think it's good to be a little cautious about presenting them. In 40k I've had people who haven't really played worried about bringing Eldar and other "powerful" armies to my local club, simply because of online sentiment likely caused by GW's Metawatch articles. So keep doing what you're doing! And I'll definitely check out the tabletop tactics batrep for some Troll action haha

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

I do think though having some awareness of what's very powerful allows players (especially in a club or store environment) to tailor their selections a bit better based on their opponent. As I've said many times, that's often the hardest situation to navigate what a "fair game" is. In a tournament you know everyone has the potential to bring the absolute "best" list they can. In a pick up game a mismatch of expectations leads to what I suspect are the majority of the "feel bads" that we hear about.

[@Slothasaur]

@@SquareBasedOldWorld Undoubtedly and my first comment might've been a little harsh. I've definitely seen a lack of awareness lead to some extremely mismatched games, especially in 40k where a lot of the strong combos are fairly self apparent or easy to build into. And this knowledge I think does lead to a healthier overall player base. One of my favourite club games I've played was helping someone prep for a tournament with the preface of bringing the best list I could. I just wish that it didn't also sometimes have players feeling like they can't play or that no one would want to play them because their faction is hitting the top of the win percentages.

[@cidahl7005]

I'm a warhammer weekly convert. They won't see that the future is square and not round, so I started checking y'all out. Now I'm in love with you guys and with this show. Square based is da best.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Hey thanks! Though it should be noted that Rob embraces both round and hard edges and is still cranking out the AoS content too. I don't know how he does it.

[@huwtindall7096]

best old world competitive content out there - coming from a narrative player who just wants relatively balanced armies :D

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Possibly the highest compliment we could get. Many thanks.

[@peiffertim]

As for the draw, a good example is the dwarf players that do the intentional corner turtle. No reason for attacking that when you know it’s a loss.

[@johnhickman8391]

Check the "draws" for dwaren holds. That makes them more interesting for sure.

[@IronDuke_xX]

The painting my Slaaneshi WoC intensifies!

[@CasperJensen-rp7xv]

Hey guys love your show! Your show made me come back into the hobby and paint up my orc and goblin from my childhood and got the missing pieces from the new “old” release of models. Working with stats as my job, would it potentially help the discussion setting up conditional probabilities for the win rate on different list clusters for each race? To help explain the variance? This is of course also affecting by sample size as always. Further condition on countries and maybe player when the stats come in? I know this make the work harder but I know they do something similar in particular baseball. A nerdy spare time activity you could look into Bayesian stats, this could help as this framework handles uncertainty as part of it and converges towards the true distribution as you bring in more and more data if your initial hypothesis holds, this is a more iterative way of doing stats. All the best keep up the great work!🥰

[@WillReynolds88]

I love you guys . Thanks for the video 😊😊 I'll always be able to tell the difference between AI Rob and real Rob

[@michaelf.7339]

Empire player: Challenge accepted sir! Still hoping for that deep dive, we could definitely use the input ;-). Fun fact: Rob alsways looks like recording the podcast sitting on a tractor since he is rocking with his legs I assume 😀

[@cavemansam8400]

50:29 - In 6th Ed GW ran a worldwide summer campaign called Albion. Stores and individual players were encouraged to write in and submit results. 2001/2002ish i guess. Maybe there’s stats out about that..??

[@MartyrDK]

Thanks for the video. Is there a link to the army lists from your GT?

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

They are posted on Best Coast Pairings - however you might need a subscription to access them once the event is over.

[@bevanlangford5012]

As an old Beastmen Brayherd player, I can sympathise with where the Empire is now. Certainly in the 8th Edition they struggled heavily, with the ETC giving them an extra couple hundred points (2600pts for a 2400 tournament). In one tournament I was 1-4, with the one win coming from that watchtower scenario (and I think a poor opponent - playing Chaos), note that this tournament didn't give the ETC bonus. I recently played my first old world game, taking the Tomb Kings, and maybe it was the Old world itself, or that tomb kings are particularly effective against Ogres, but boy did they feel strong! Anyway thanks for the podcast, it was really interesting to see/hear the breakdown and where the armies are falling out. Time for me to dust off the beastmen, even if I am concerned that it will now be the army and not me that seals any victory.

[@TheGeneralGarcia]

I remember in early 7th edition that a player brought a "net list" of High Elves to one of our tournaments and won the whole thing. I also remember different versions of comp, Shimmergloom comp scoring, ETC comp. I don't remember a lot of stats out there.

[@NateFinch]

This seems impossible unless the player was already quite experienced. There are so many ways to move tactically to minimize someone else's strong units and maximize your own... you can't just bring "the best list" with no idea how to win with it, and expect to actually be successful against skilled players. Things like frenzy baiting, march blocking, war machine hunting, skirmishers screening your units from missile fire, etc etc.... I could see some magic item combos being especially strong, but you still have to know how to use the army you bring.

[@TheGeneralGarcia]

@@NateFinch we were all about the same skill level back then and there were some unwritten rules that were broken with the net list... This was early 7th edition, so there wasn't a lot of great list building going on with our group at that point. But my main point was that we didn't have all the data we have now. We weren't as connected.

[@49SABRES]

Totally missed a golden opportunity when talking interviewing a VC player as an “interview with a vampire”

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

WE GOT SCOOPED ANYWAY

[@ahjington89]

Really hope they introduce more core armies

[@bshean72]

Would love to see Bugmans Dwarf Rangers come back

[@oil3]

Since these stats are including pre-FAQ data, odds are we should see WoC bonked down a little bit and, bare minimum, dwarves lifted some with that drilled change. Good to see that things are trending in a really good direction. (RIP Slaan)

[@Tartersauce101]

...Did YT unsub me? Well subbed now/again at least

[@BigMorty]

Love the show! Where can I see the list Val used at the GT?

[@crisismethodactor]

Best Coast Pairings, generally. I’m not sure what the GT was called but can search for past events and filter by date range and game system. Hope that helps.

[@BigMorty]

Thanks much

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

@Val - Old World is coming back to Da Boyz this year! Hope to see you there!

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

I'll be running an event in October here in Toronto! Get at me on FB/Discord. I'm Val Heffelfinger on both!

[@krissanders9718]

Talking about a warriors of chaos list. Have you tried forsaken of slaanesh. I run two units of 5 and they pull more than their points worth

[@matthowleymusic]

To answer the question about people bean counting back in the day ...... Rankings HQ was the site that kept track of all the stats back in the old days of fantasy. It had tournament results, weighted by how many rounds in the event and how many players. People would get an icon next to their name for being the best with their race. This led to some people bringing the weaker armies consistently, trying to battle out to be the best beastmen player for example. The top end in 6th and 7th was all daemons, vampires and dark elves. The site would show a breakdown of army strength using data from every tournament in the world. Scores would only last one year and things like the UK top 16 was used to qualify for the masters in the UK. I think rankings HQ went away because it was all run by one guy and was expensive for him to keep on top of.

[@samfreestone4382]

would love to reach out to Jack Allen regarding his Empire list as trialling something very similiar

[@DonKarlioni]

I used to play a lot of WFB until it became mostly about magic and monsters, so probably 6th edition. I have managed to play one game since TOW came out. Where do you hear about all the events you talk about? Sounds like the are loads but I can’t even get the manager of my local GW to say it can be played in the store. I’m in the south east of Uk. Thanks

[@jackcrop]

The TripleCrown guys can probably share the data on what factions have been used in 8th over the last 5 years or so!

[@RealmDesigner]

Tea, Cig, Square Based. Wednesday is looking good! :)

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

That's a delightful combo.

[@DJSwagioBaggins]

does somebody know where can i get those dwarf models ? at 1:28:33

[@Misosgameroom]

Great video, though I think Adepticon best you to the world's first team TOW event unless I misunderstood.

[@ginjasteve4435]

When was Adepticon teams event? What were the results like?

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

They didn't. Adepticon hasn't run it yet

[@Misosgameroom]

​​@@ginjasteve4435I don't recall who ended up winning, they made some really strange decisions with awards it kinda distracted me. It was Adepticon this year, March 22nd.

[@TheVigilante2000]

Though that stats are interesting and represents what has happen, I think they have very little to do with the actual potential 'power' of a particular army at this point (whatever that means).

[@LSOP-]

What are the AoS stats measured in liters of glue and kilos of lead paint chips?

[@piphamilton8804]

You are right I'm never gonna stop playing my lizards! Really interesting stats. One question - for the simpler ones like win rates, is there a reason you've chosen not to show statistical error bars?

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Go deeper! What do you mean by "statistical error bars"

[@piphamilton8804]

@@SquareBasedOldWorld Just a little line superimposed on the central value that shows the variation you expect from random chance from the sample size you have. It helps show how reliable the data are on the same chart as showing what they say. There are formulae for calculating it - I've been chatting to Simon about it on WhatsApp. Wrote a reply here earlier but it seems to have vanished!

[@adamsboringvids]

Wonder if tournaments will drift back towards a ‘Swedish comp’ style system eventually?

[@scatterthewinds3126]

Probably. In time

[@terraneaux]

What is that?

[@Willabrador]

Yeah what is that?

[@Knoffles]

@@terraneauxa fan based system that looked to balance older editions of warhammer.

[@terraneaux]

@@Knoffles Hmmm, I'd be skeptical. Most of the time when there's a fan rebalance it just makes things worse.

[@James__V]

I’m putting a Lizardmen army together right now. The Old Ones plan will come to pass. Love the content guys.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

GET THEM LIZARDS OUT THERE!

[@dstanful]

This has made me want to start a dark elf army. I've got 10 swordsmen, 10 crossbowmen and a hydra, how many points is that? 😁

[@andrewj1754]

What a rating list like this means, like Val said is most people aren't using meta lists. So its more a view on army balance at this stage, and what army has the best performing units, or highest average capability to win. Player skill does factor in, however this is more indicative that Dark Elves and Empire need work to play. Empire especially IMO, as after the FAQ nerf's some of the better combos Empire had (Illusion with Mace) is completely gone.

[@salv.6948]

Also, Daemons of Chaos are rep'd at 2% because no one in their right mind wants to rank up the current Bloodletters, nearly impossible and ended my WHFB career, lol

[@themidnightaristocrat]

Val, please print the Avatars of War "Grom style" Goblin King on chariot for your nomad army.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

THAT GROM IS SO SICK.

[@Fortunes.Fool.]

51:49 I still have some of my WHFB lizards all ranked up in square bases and I desperately wish they were still a core faction. I started ripping my big dino monsters off square bases to rebase for AoS and it’s a pain in the ass with their small contact patches. I’m looking at my saurus and temple guard, who I lovingly trimmed off their slotta tabs and held each on to Plastruct textured tiles on square bases, and I can’t bring myself to tear them up. I ended up buying new lizards for AoS, so I wish lizards would be a core faction!!!!

[@allancarey2604]

Had a tournament over the last weekend….Me with my green Boyz against a night goblin army. Seeing 7 fanatics cross each other in no man’s land was great, but the BEST gamey thing was my opponent deliberately taking his goblins off his squig herd to make the squigs go wild while in combat….took me a hot minute to realise what he was doing ( squigs going wild while in me lines) and damn it was great *grins*

[@schlatta-dirtydeeds9351]

Squigs don't go wild from just losing the herders, and motley crew means you're only allowed to take away models from the fighting rank, in which the herder isn't allowed to be. So it sounds like your opponent pulled a fast one on you

[@allancarey2604]

@@schlatta-dirtydeeds9351 - meh, they broke anyway so given we were bottom table it was still fun (had two fanatics take each other becouse one moved into the other…its was that kind of fun game :) )

[@schlatta-dirtydeeds9351]

@@allancarey2604 Glad you enjoyed it!

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

I doubt anyone was "pulling a fast one" man. Just a gentle chiding here to give the benefit of the doubt. OP had a good time, despite them freewheeling with the rules a bit : )

[@madamesaundere]

There once was a podcast called SquareBased Whose hosters were known for their fast pace Our Rob rocked the lore Big Val rode a boar And the viewers were constantly shitfaced

[@TheGeneralGarcia]

We all love 'high' elves...

[@allancarey2604]

The 3% for the chaos dwarves makes me want to work out what I can use with my metals

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Get em up on their feet and get em out there. Your angry dwarfs need you!

[@treydudley7966]

I thought that the 55-45% win rate was based upon the white-black split in chess.

[@randyschmautz2379]

I would LOVE to know what lists are actually playing. What do people have in their lists?

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

I think when we start doing our regular reviews we'll need to make sure we're diving into that

[@normannat9629]

Hé Rob or Val. Rule question. Can you use lances with knights when you pursue a fall back in good order unit. There seems to be contradicting rules about it. To me it feels sensible that it can, because it is a new combat (unit is rallied). However the latest errata seems to indicate that is the same combat, where it can be argued that lances cannot be used anymore.

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

Think the FAQ is clear that if you charge with your lances and the opponent FBIGOs then you can use the lances again if you follow up. The remaining contradiction is what happens if they FBIGO in a later round of combat where you've already switched to hand weapons as there is now a rule where you can't change weapons as it's still the same combat and a contradictory rule where you can use lances whenever you count as charging. Would be interested to know how Rob is ruling that in his tournaments (and on what basis).

[@normannat9629]

​@@ClydeMillerWynant hé Clyde. Thank you. I missed where in the faq that is made clear. Can you perhaps refer to that section? Do you mean perhaps the section about when a model can use a lance? When charging or counts as having charged

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

@@normannat9629 Yes, where it states you can use the lance if you count as having charged. When read in conjunction with p.157 it means you can use the lance when you pursue a FBIGO because you count as having charged: "If the enemy unit Fell Back in Good Order, the units become engaged in combat once more, becoming locked in place until the next player's turn when the combat will continue. During the next turn, the pursuing unit counts as having charged."

[@normannat9629]

Yes. I agree, this is also my interpretation. However GW caused a bit of confusion by stating that fbigo is a continuation of the same combat. But if you snap all of this together, indeed lances can be used. Also from a common sence / realistic point of view, it makes more sence.

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

@@normannat9629 The remaining difficulty is : "Q: If my unit loses a round of combat and either Gives Ground or Falls Back in Good Order, can it choose to use different weapons in the next turn if the enemy made a Follow Up or Pursuit move? A: No. Even though the units separated momentarily, they remain locked in place and engaged in an ongoing combat once the Follow Up or Pursuit move has been made. In other words, because the combat is ongoing, neither unit is able to swap one weapon for another." On its own this would mean you can't go back to lances when pursuing a FBIGO if you've already changed to hand weapons for the round of combat where you forced the FBIGO. But the lance rule says you can use them whenever you count as charging (which you do in this instance). In practice it mostly won't matter as if it's your turn next you can usually restrain and then charge anyway, but there are circumstances where it will matter. I think the not being able to change back should take priority, but that's partly because I have always found the lance rules absurd when it comes to them somehow getting them back after discarding them. Warhammer has always (or at least for a very long time) been like this and I long ago came to the belief that they all keep spare lances somewhere particularly uncomfortable and are experts for extracting them for use when needed...

[@RyanF1313]

Can I find James Ramses list anywhere on the net? (Text - net KZbin video 😂)

[@nklinef]

For those interested, There is a battle report of the Beastmen army they showcase on the Barefoot Miniatures channel vs Dwarfs. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIjRc5aAgZt9ac0si=u_VA8PYEA7LPPz3F

[@tommyakesson8858]

For me? Stats are nice. But I play Wood Elves and Sisters of Battle. Two armies that are potent but demands quite a bit from their general, esp due to being kinda fragile. And I dont play a ton. Soooo... Those stats dont realy apply to me 😅

[@greglewinski2088]

As far as taking meta stats and using that for the background, legend of the 5 rings card game did that. Tournament results would impact the story and cards in new sets. Cards literally were created based of specific games in big tournaments even

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Well that's just the thing man... it's like... subjective. haha. In all seriousness it's very tough to actually make a bold statement about that sort of thing right now. But! It does make for a good KZbin title and discussion.

[@johnnnysilverhand9819]

I feel like Old World, despite having a larger model count than 40k, feels more narrative and immersive. The power scale is not so crazy, and you don’t find yourself facing major named characters like Mortarion, Angron, or Magnus the Red again, and again, and again, and again, and again. The result is your 2 or 3 nameless lords or wizards start developing their own stories, and even the current named characters are relatively low in their power level compared to what’s going in 40k or where WHFB was right before endtimes. 40k used to be that way around 2003-2008.

[@Tulkash01]

Unit stand outs for the best faction in tOW: Rangers, Irondrakes, Gyrocopters

[@DETHMOKIL]

Ive been playing Empire from releases and gradually have been forced to refine my list down to the "good" meta units. Not as much fun coming up with narrative fluff when I now have to include why I have 6 demigryphs in the reason why I still lose lol

[@Gamecapturevideo]

Playing for the draw if you know you can't win is fantastic advice - please see the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, Peak Performance as proof of this reasoning. Thanks for the great insight and raucous laughs, Rob and Val! 👋👋

[@dzav8909]

Warhammer total war most played faction is Empire. There's a massive meme around "Summon the Elector Counts!"

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

I know they've done stats on this in the past - I'll have to go dig them up. Certainly it was something they talked about around TW Warhammer II

[@deanunsworth308]

Completely irrelevant but has rob got a mullet or an undercut I cant tell and its really winding me up! 😂

[@sebastienlovescookieswirlc]

Do people use Demaon Princes? Has interesting stats but all those vulnerabilities (instability + warpspawn, I believe) make it a lot less attractive than a Lord, I think.

[@SparksKnifecraft]

I think a lot a peops are missing put that he's a lone infantry character so as long as you run him within 3 inches of an infantry unit, he loses a lot of the vulnerabilities of a single model. Static combat res, spell sniping, shooting, all falls by the wayside. The only vulnerability could be a lucky cannon ball bounce. But the armour of darkoth neuters multiwound nicely I use one and have had frankly disgusting results 🙂

[@terraneaux]

I use it in Chaos demons.

[@sebastienlovescookieswirlc]

@@SparksKnifecraft Disgusting as real bad or disgustingly good?

[@SparksKnifecraft]

Cruise up behind supporting units then... - Charge a unit of infantry (hopefully in the flank) - cast word of pain on unit (-1 s and t) - cast stream of corruption for a template of S3 ap-1 hits - cast soul eater for another S3 hit with no armour save - Use aura of pain for another d6 S3 hits with no armour or regen saves - fight in combat... The good kind 🤌

[@SparksKnifecraft]

@sebastienlovescookieswirlc obviously wizard positioning and is a consideration to limit potential dispells. But he's been a blender. Had fun using the ogreblade and extra arm to fill the moster hunter niche too but prefer the Dark Magic Blender

[@pardoe17789]

I really like the PWP score as a stat, helps new players who are looking for help choosing an army but also has the effect on the really competitive types of "Empire at 18% I'll show them, I'm going 5-0 with a "weak" army"

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

It was the first time I'd seen that stat - and honestly, I think it's super interesting.

[@Ulfhednir9]

Since Chaos Dwarfs are completely out of production and renegade (in more ways than one) They are doing well for popularity and meta, considering. Since they are my boys its good to see. Very disappointing that they get overlooked so often by everyone from GW to content creators but they go very well when supported as seen in old warhammer and warhammer total war dlc.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

One issue I have with a raw win rate analysis for a game like TOW is that there's a huge variety in how competitive people are and what sort of lists they're bringing. Take vampire counts for example - it's sitting at a 40% win rate here, but it's also won multiple events, and those highly competitive lists are extremely strong. There's also the case of what makes the "timmy" lists for an army, and how good/bad the internal balance for the army is; if one way that you might expect people to play an army results in something really weak, while another is extremely competitive, that's going to drag down the overall win rate in a competitive sense. Win rates among the top half or so players, or top 10-25% would be a better indicator of competitive balance. In response to ~51:00 on 8th ed representation: Warriors of chaos was by far the most represented army at the time - not only was it the "space marines of fantasy", but it was also the strongest in a competitive sense (the swedish comp system that was used towards the end of 8th did curb its power level for tournaments, but it was still very competitive). High Elves, Empire, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts, and Dark Elves all had solid representation as well; high elves probably being #2, followed by empire/dark elves. Ogres, Skaven, Daemons, and Orcs and Goblins were behind those, but were still fairly represented. Dwarfs probably comes after that. At the bottom were Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Beastmen, and Chaos Dwarfs - the first 4 being not particularly competitive (playable, but some particularly good/bad match ups), and the last being forgeworld, so most people wouldn't bother with it due to cost, even though it was competitive.

[@SquareBasedOldWorld]

Of all the information we presented - I think the most interesting was actually the meta representation one. As I mentioned - I think the more actionable data would be drilling down into the results further, to see the specific builds that are winning and what sorts of matchups they had, etc. And as for WoC in 8th - yes they were strong for sure... but for my money Elves flipped the table on the whole game as their books came out in the back end of the edition. As someone who didn't experience it in real time, I only know the end state - and that is an S tier of High Elves and Dark Elves for my money. (with some arguing for Nurgle Daemons as well, but I feel like they were a bit more one note.) FML I really enjoyed 8th in the two years I played it before tOW. Though a lot could be said about the fact that I didn't personally own an Elf army, and so, never really ran into them : )

[@Matt-ln7lb]

@@SquareBasedOldWorld Yeah, the elves were definitely top tier factions, especially with the comp system (swedish comp - basically assigned every unit a separate point cost, factoring in unit size, then used that to adjust VPs at the end of a game with a sliding 0-20 scoring for tournament points) used towards the end of 8th; HE in particular came out really well from it. Before the comp system was adopted, WoC practically sweeped podiums a few times at tournaments, and usually made up 2-3 of the top 5 in battle score. Even after the more heavy-handed comp, it was doing well, despite the comp system hitting it something like twice as hard as the next faction. Of course, HE/DE were still top tier, and often took podium spots, but putting that gap into perspective is interesting. As great as HE was, the only game I ever lost to it in 8th ed as Lzm was one where my Slann blew itself up round 1 on a miscast. I don't think I ever beat a competitive WoC list after their 8E book released (I didn't bring the right sort of list, since it'd hurt other match ups that were still fairly common. Games were usually not too bad in terms of VPs/tournament points though). I was basically a 4-1/3-2 player, based on how many WoC lists I happened to face at an event. Of course, the meta WoC lists were vulnerable to cannons, but even lists dedicated to countering it weren't that heavily favored, and terrain and ward/regen rolls could swing things into WoC favor pretty quickly. That was even after the elves had their new books (HE was 2010, DE were Oct 2013, WoC was Feb 2013).