What is the historically documented Musical Maximum Speed? And what's the implication for US?

[@Nikeairxxx]

Mr. Winter, many thanks for all this interesting video's about tempi !

[@kaybrown4010]

Historical anecdotal testimonies confirm the use of double beat in the not-so-distant past. Pushing tempi to the limits of human abilities increases the risk of injury and does nothing to add to the musicality of of a piece. It’s not about seeing who can play “Flight of the Bumblebee” the fastest!

[@antoniavignera2339]

Importante documento.Mi riporta indietro ne mie studi in conservatorio.Formidabile spiegazione maestro grazie.

[@felipescagliusi9739]

Thanks you so much for this great video, Wim! One of the best that you made about this subject, in my opinion

[@lemonemmi]

Very interesting video! Building the case for the brain, which is clear as day already for the heart. :) Happy May Day, all! :)

[@gabithemagyar]

Very interesting and well presented. Quite convincing ! One thing I find slightly baffling though is the fact that it seems (unless I heard wrong) that the maximum speeds on violin vs keyboard were deemed to be roughly the same. I would have thought that possible speeds while maintaining distinguishable notes on a keyboard (e.g. harpsichord, clavichord or piano - not organ) would be faster than on a violin due to the difference in the mechanics of playing, the method of tone production and the tone quality itself - a keyboard instrument having a definite percussive effect for each individual note which should vs the smoothing effect of a sustained bow stroke on the fiddle, I think, naturally provide greater aural separation of the individual notes. It would be an interesting study for an audiologist to compare the ear's response to different instrument types :-)

[@AuthenticSound]

It would. Though a pianist will never 'win' from a violinist. That's the reason this instrument was served in those sources, it's the F1 of the instruments

[@alangreene9423]

I like the sources; good solid evidence. I played guitar hours-per-day for many years in the past. I came to realise around 15-16 notes-per-second as the magic number; attempting to go above this speed just audibly does not make much sense.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks for sharing this Alan, you're 'impossible' MM still are on the list to be used one day.

[@dantrizz]

Do you have those impossible metronome marks I could view somewhere? I always having a laugh at what single beat proponents try to defend.

[@cosimoleone9110]

Very interesting video. Slowly, i'm changing my idea.

[@cosimoleone9110]

However the world record is 14 notes/second m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIKTiHqHl6-VqdE

[@thomashughes4859]

I like the idea of halves. From Allo Assai to Adagio Assai. It certainly helps give absolute ranges when comparing MM numbers for whole beat. With absolute times from other polymaths, we get a real good idea! Thanks Wim!

[@kefka34]

Great video i didn´t know that we had all this numbers in black and white.

[@maurozanchetta648]

This is pure gold, Wim. Thank you!

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

Another huge step in approaching the status of proof of your contention. I know it won't stop the deniers, look at the climate change deniers, but your level of proof means your interpretation of the instructions left us by composers and their students as to how their masters' played will become common knowledge in a generation or two. Very well done.

[@brendanward2991]

I believe in whole beat. I also know (having done my own research) that there is no correlation between global warming and CO2 levels. I recommend Michel van Biezen's excellent KZbin playlist on the physics and thermodynamics of the atmosphere: kzbin.info/aero/PLX2gX-ftPVXVzU5jGY3FaYEuuu3ANvMZb

[@alexmantua]

Great explanation! Well done Wim!

[@reflechant]

Links to the sources showed in the video: Oscar Raif: archive.org/details/beitrgezurakust03stumgoog/page/n75 Cours de physique experimentale et theoretique: archive.org/details/coursdephysique01jeagoog/page/n80 Benjamin Carr: imslp.org/wiki/The_Analytical_Instructor_for_the_Piano_Forte_(Carr,_Benjamin)?fbclid=IwAR2-VAS0pkMh0VEAw2-E8OAd_KG1hGFZhsoQzYv8_RZ5Gjs_JUl-UqHGatI - part 3, page 53 Pieter van Musschenbroek: books.google.ru/books?id=1X9AAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=van%20mussenbroek%20natuurkunde&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwizs6HehLHiAhVslYsKHcQmCToQ6AEIKzAA&fbclid=IwAR1LUKnMDbNb9YCoyRM2j-eSF770bMHybj0hcZ1IOyTb_sbYVg4O2zkd9hA#v=onepage&q=prestissimo&f=false

[@dantrizz]

Oh yes, fantastic! I was looking for these

[@SalseroAt]

Very interesting video. I was surprised to learn that it seems that the accepted limit of ten notes per second remained the same for such a long time.

[@VRnamek]

it's a very reasonable human limit

[@loxpower]

Namekuseijin Br it’s human limit regarding the ability to distinctively hear all the notes it has nothing to do with physical limits. :)

[@petermamede453]

It's very cool, Wim. Great video!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks Peter!

[@reflechant]

Recently I was thinking about this old idea (which gave name to Harnoncourt's book) that music is a language, that instruments should mimic human voice (remember "Les Voix Humaines" de Marin Marais) and this idea of long phrases when people are obsessed with music "falling apart" and select the most top-level phrase (of all levels) in music, play it at "normal speed" thus speeding up everything else to something indistinguishable. Take some good book, for example "War and Peace". Leo Tolstoy wrote a whole novel. You can read it carefully in a couple of months and then remember again and again, finding patterns and narratives, some grand unifying idea (or probably there is none or there are many), etc. Benjamin Zander would condence it to one page, proud of underlying the long phrase. But nobody does it for books ! People realize that words mean something, even single words, punctuation between them, their order in a sentence, sentences order in a paragraph, etc. that it's disrespectful to a writer to read not at the _deepest_ level you can, paying attention to everything! And nobody reads poetry so fast that listeners cannot immediately understand the rhythm and rhyme and meaning ! How on Earth is it acceptable for music!? P.S. Marin Marais, Les voix humaines, by Jordi Savall: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r53TgIJjbMisqpI

[@edelcorrallira]

Incredible as always Wim

[@ep7329]

Das ist auf keinen Fall zu bestreiten!

[@zenzheng2137]

Why is this interesting, plausible yet alternative school of thought and practice remaining in the margins and rejected by the mainstream?

[@Wazoox]

These are really extremely interesting testimonies and can't be invalidated. It fits your theory exactly.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks Emmanuel

[@123Joack]

What is the earliest use of single beat metronome numbers you could find?

[@AuthenticSound]

Novello 1822, you will find a video here on the channel

[@alfredcen6159]

Thank you for the comprehensive study! Would it be possible to explain the transition of metronome reading which makes what we normally do today?

[@SiteReader]

Brilliant, Wim!

[@musicalintentions]

excellent video Momentum is building.

[@thomashughes4859]

ESPECIALLY, not yet a MONTH ago, none other than Lang Lang and Deutsche Grammophon came out with a video on April 5, 2019 with none other than Czerny's Op299/1 in C, which Lang Lang only plays for a very short time using a glissando instead of a scale to "kind of end the piece" to continue talking. The truth is that up at the high end of the keyboard - IF YOU LISTEN CLOSE ENOUGH - his fingers begin to fail him. Momentum is indeed building. The book "Who Moved My Cheese" comes to mind to understand that the human being are the ONLY animal in nature that will "cling" to an idea by allowing his reason - even falsely so - to override his instincts. This would an unnatural pride or a protection of "rights" to be the ONLY hero among so many. Outstanding assessment, Musical!

[@thomashughes4859]

@@rowanwilliams3303 I would love to read that document that you got from Mersenne or a link. It has been my experience that every one who "knew" Wim didn't know what he was talking about actually defended more his theory than the opposition. I am always keeping my mind open. It is just that everything I read supports Wim it seems. I would definitely read a link or your paper about Mersenne's instructions. Do remember this though ... every piece of evidence MUST collaborate the fact that there were "absolutes" in tempo. I hypothesised this LOOOONG before I ever found Wim. A maximum, not only in practise but in listening ability of the human brain, exists, and it seems that real scientists and physicists make the claim that 10 -12 n/s is about the max. At this prestissimo speed, articulation is impossible because the touch must be lighter. Again, and seriously, please send me Mersenne's stuff. I do have on open mind even if I eventually - with reasoning - eventually disagree. Thank you, Rowan. :D

[@jasonniehoff9372]

Great video! Wouldn't Prestissimo for Carr be 120=1/4 or 60=1/2, that makes Czerny's Presto of 108=1/4 fit perfectly. I am curious how Quantz fits into this? If he is understood in double beat he only reaches 5.3 notes a second for Allegro Assai. But the Young and MacDonald sources fit 80=1/4 for fastest tempo, and it seems like Young confirms Quantz is double beat. Was JS Bach's fastest speed 5 or 10 n/s ?

[@AuthenticSound]

Hi Jason, if one would take 88 quarter note for 'a' allegro assai, that results in 5,8 notes/second, that would be already fast if you play, for instance, a trio sonata on an historical organ. I'll have to ask Lorenz to rewrite his article on Quantz, woudl be a good opportunity to bring him to the channel as well!

[@VRnamek]

Besides all the research on pendulum and the impossible metronome markings for fast etudes in single-beat, these direct quotes for prestissimo are very direct evidence for double-beat in historical tempo. Thank you. Virtuoso F1 players may live in denial if they want to.

[@VRnamek]

@@rowanwilliams3303 why don't you yourself try to play such etudes in the tempo given in MM numbers in single beat and tells us how it goes?

[@alangreene9423]

@@rowanwilliams3303 Would you be able to illustrate the calculations you have in mind here? I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing; I'm just genuinely interested. Thanks.

[@MrTalentwasted]

Can you publish what you feel are the correct tempos or tempo ranges for a modern metronome for all keyboard comps. by Chopin, Beet, Mozart, Bach etc?? Make it a download for $10.00 or whatever you feel the market would bear.

[@jbloodwo]

Would love to see you do some videos on organ music.. ie how widors organ symphony has kind of become how fast can i go. compared to the recording of the mystro himself playing that is here on you tube. many say he is playing slowly because he was i think over 80 at the time of the recording. but there is an entire complexity to the piece i never heard at the faster tempo.

[@AuthenticSound]

The Widor toccata is since long on my list of to do, it's a wonderful showcase that we today in fact are all but interested in reconstructing music as played in the past! Widor missed on his age less notes than Cortot in his Chopin recordings, and we know, also from Dupré, that that tempo was the tempo he had in mind. Yet, no-one plays it anymore like that...

[@kefka34]

If Wim would play lesser know composers like Hummel,Kalkbrenner,Moscheles,Weber and so on...,in whole beat and not mention anything about whole or half beat noone would find anything strange about these tempis.These were the contemporaries of Chopin,Liszt,Beethoven.Only if you put them back in historical perspective and compare them to the other composers you realise what their true genious was and it has nothing to do with many notes per second.

[@henrygaida7048]

Though Moscheles should just be played more anyway.

[@ruramikael]

Hummel is a single-beat composer. I don't exclude the possibility of whole-beat, but it is not general.

[@kefka34]

@@ruramikael Hummels great f sharp minor sonata is barely playable even in whole beat. I think if you tried to play the development section of the first movement in half beat,you would physicly hurt yourself.

[@ruramikael]

@@kefka34 Yes, it is fast, but it doesn't makes sense at half the speed. Most other metronome marks by Hummel seems reasonable in half beat, Also, this inspired Liszt B minor sonata with similar metronome marks (as noted down by students of Liszt).

[@ruramikael]

@@CaradhrasAiguo49 and 132 (crotchet) for the first movement, a typical Allegro for me.

[@ShuAbLe]

Very interesting, on Czerny op.740 n1 its 12.26 notes a second and in n2 12 notes a second, reading the modern way. It's the limits you've showed and it sounds pretty fast to today standards as well, don't you agree? I became very interested in knowing what recent researchs say about what's practically fastest to play, practically meaning a certain style or technique, for example, closer double octaves like in Chopin op.25n10. Also, I gotta say, first time I watched you talk about this subject I thought the idea a bit crazy, now this video is a compelling argument towards it.

[@dantrizz]

bear in mind, that Czerny's Opus 299 is 16 notes a second for no.4 and that's marked Presto, not Prestissimo. I think this is the knock down argument against Single Beat. Although context does matter a lot since in whole beat we still get 15 notes a second in very very very short bursts, but if that's not what they're referring to, but rather the structural notes that are constantly going by as the fastest note values, then that's pretty damning of the SBT.

[@surgeeo1406]

The near-fanatic debates here a few months ago have made me unconsciously avoid the channel, I admit... The attempts to repress the several fundamental freedoms required for your work were felt by me as just vile... So I thank you for soldiering through, and I hope that this community is a bit more humane now. I'm probably remembering it as way worse than reality, but anyway...

[@AuthenticSound]

thank you and welcome back. The personal instead of fact based remarks do annoy me as well. Someone recently called me a 'fake cure for cancer' even... I will make a community guideline video in the near future. Comment section is for conversation, not to call people out, you are absolutely right.

[@SeanRooneyMusic]

Win I am playing (among other pieces) the ballade in g minor in a coupl3 of weeks in a solo recital.woild you have any idea what sort of tempo would be the historical tempo of this piece and could you give an example? I want to try my first performance in these tempos and see how it goes

[@ericalapayre722]

sean rooney, try this : kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWbKe6agr6Z_jNk

[@thomashughes4859]

Wolfgang Weller has this Ballade recorded. Look him up.

[@AuthenticSound]

Hi Sean, visit imslp and go to the Kullak editions. Great MM for Chopin, all in whole beat. If you wonder, start with paging through the preludes, and have a look a the slow ones

[@thomashughes4859]

@@AuthenticSound I just noticed that Kullak's name is a palindrome. Neat. Thanks, Wim. Kullak edition is a great help. Finally some direction on tempo.

[@gristlevonraben]

This is a wonderful video. Extremely well made! I have a question, Just how slow is Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata? Great video!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks Gristle! I have started one of the practicing sessions of a few months ago with the Moonlight. And am about to record it soon

[@gristlevonraben]

@@AuthenticSound That would be very awesome. I listened to a performane of the moonlight sonata by Claudia Arru, after asking my comment. I slowed it down to half the speed. It was still haunting, but not as sad. Instead, its pace reminded me of when I would watch the moon through my telescope when i was young. It seemed to have the same movement past the opening of the lens's view. The music was slightly messed up by the elongating of the notes artificially. But something magical came through, Sir, it made me feel like I was looking at the moon and stars, which the faster version does not. I eagerly await your version! ps. I listened to it again, and to be honest, from a different recording, played half speed, it sounded like rain dripping from tree leaves, or house roof overhangs, and two people dancing or having a passionate moment under the stars and moon. It was almost like a poem.

[@teodorlontos3294]

@@gristlevonraben I've playing a bit of the Moonlight recently. According to Czerny, the tempi are as following: First movement quarter note=60, Second movement half note=76-84, Third movement half note=92. I've tried reading them both in half and whole beat, and the latter seems more reasonable. For future reference, use this very useful study: www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/files/54586757/FULL_TEXT.PDF

[@davidwaddell2688]

Slow enough so that Beethoven's original "problematic" pedal marking (senza sordino) makes perfect sense! The effect is absolutely amazing! Play it any faster and the harmonies cloud together and create an dissonant mess.

[@teodorlontos3294]

@@davidwaddell2688 actually, the big difference is that Beethovens sustain pedal wasn't as effective as our modern pianos. So it still doesn't work

[@dantrizz]

Just as an extra aside (which you may already be aware) modern scientific papers regarding psycho-acoustics written in the 20th and 21st centuries also corroborate this number of 10 notes a second as being the most the human ear can distinguish, thus we know it's definitely reliable what people were writing about a in the 18th century regarding playing speeds at 10 notes a second for the very reason that they justify it being the fastest speed because of the ability of what the human ear can do. This is why, for me at least, I'm willing to grant that even if every piece in the 19th century could be played 100% accurately at single beat speeds, it would still make no sense because single beat cannot square this circle regarding 10 notes a second. Single beat is an admission of rendering all metronome marks as a nonsense that will stay a mystery.

[@dantrizz]

I find this sort of evidence highly satusfactory. Supposing single beat were true (in other words that 16, 18, 20 notes a second were possible given the scores we have) I'd expect if someone writing about the fastest musician they ever saw would say something along the lines of "the fastest playable speed would be 20 notes a second" (maybe more depending on what the absolute limit was), but if whole beat were true I'd expect that top speed to be precisely half. And this coincides with that notion pretty perfectly. To the point I'd almost say of actively disproving single beat understandings of tempo that exceed this (although not 100% again depending on context)

[@ChristianJoannes]

Wim i just don't understand that : we have given that board so much evidence of recording at continuous speed much more higher than that : 1) Martha Algerich Chopin etude 1 op 10 sustained 12 notes per seconds . performance in 105s 2) Horowitz danse macabre of st saens many passages at 15 notes per sec , a passage at 17 notes per seconds 3) Leslie Howard, playing Czerny Etude Op. 299 No. 39 at sustained 14 notes per secondes 4) Glenn Gould Beethoven op 27 no 2 > 13 notes per sec Do we need to add more ? I can find tons of examples

[@AuthenticSound]

But that is the whole point: what Argerich can or cannot do should not be projected on Beethoven and Chopin. Not mentioning those speeds are still by far not enough in half beat reading! Not saying anything on the L. Howard version of Czerny...

[@fogonpr]

Exactly what I wanted to say. The point is that we think of the composer from 2 centuries ago just like the virtuosos from today. We need to reconstruct the context around them. How interesting that the documents that Wim speaks of mentions the limit of distinguishing notes. You hear Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux 4 and you can not distinguish any. It's a wave of sound instead of individual notes. Same thing Ravel's Une barque sur l'ocean.

[@ChristianJoannes]

@@AuthenticSound I actually believe they played faster than what we can achieve today on the contrary . The keyboard action of a pianoforte allows faster runs than a modern grand. And it is well documented that Czerny was a very fast player. If you take Liszt he toured the whole of Europe during his time, he was a rock star and invented the word 'recital'. It is simply not compatible with double beat.

[@ChristianJoannes]

@@fogonpr well I recommend you listen to pollini, richter , horowitz fast playing and then maybe you will edit your post ;)

[@ChristianJoannes]

@@AuthenticSound Oh, i forgot to mention the famous story regarding Chopin etude 1 op 10. (I have a passion for this one ;) . It was dedicated to Liszt. It was the only one that Liszt couldn't play sight reading it. No need to say that it tends to indicate that the speed was very likely similar to what we hear today, as at half tempo, it would have been a grade 1 piece for him !

[@marcio3426]

The second Bach prelude of the first book would be a good example to demonstrate us this ideas in practice.

[@freddydecroock8191]

Zo snel zou ik het zeker ook niet kunnen... Te moeilijke uitleg voor mij Wim, ik geef op...

[@hansongnaily]

I like this video, can you show us the white board writing

[@thomashughes4859]

I had the opportunity to visit one of my favourite Mexican states: Zacatecas. I witnessed two things: 1) the earth is STILL - as it has been for 1,000's of years - 13 C or 55 F 40 metres (130 feet) underground (at the Eden Mine), and 2) I was playing on a turn-of-the-20th-century pump organ by the Estey Organ company at an antique shoppe. The odd thing is that I had to pump my own bellows with foot pedals, and if I played too quickly any of the modern tempi for Bach, the organ simply wouldn't sound. The air pressure hadn't the time to build. I have a video for naysayers ... just sayin' ... and curiously at TEMPO ORDINARIO (one half of a seconds pendulum per 1/4 note), the organ played like a DREAM! The former was a physics win for me for my teaching (in my professional life), and the latter a physics win for Wim's teaching! How curious that I am shewn truth even before Wim verifies it with his always apropos videos! Thanks, Wim! I should warn you that your facts won't interfere with the "minds firmly set in place". HAHA!!!

[@thomashughes4859]

If the builder -called organ is truly an harmonium, then I played a Bach fugue on one slowly because of its slow physical characteristics. I geuss after all that I'd rather push American than drive French. Bon jour.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@addictbach4509 HAHA!!! Thank you for being a good sport. Some folks get flustered over this national stuff. ME, I'm a man of the world. Believe it or not, I function in any setting ... "when in Rome"!

[@Mukundanghri]

Thank you for this.

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks for watching!

[@bsdkflh]

This is quite interesting. But nevertheless I have to respectfully disagree. Both Chopin and Beethoven had pupils, and those pupils had pupils of their own. Beethoven taught Czerny, who then taught Leszetycki, whose students left many recordings. Same for Chopin, who taught Mikuli. I'd gamble that playing twice as fast or as slow is not information likely to be dismissed.

[@AuthenticSound]

this might help: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWXOfouPl5ejkK8

[@barney6888]

i'm not telling Beethoven he's unfit to play his music, you do it. i prefer the sides of my head to remain relatively parallel to each other.

[@AuthenticSound]

The title is a rhetorical question... of course they were. but not if our modern view on their music really is historically "correct", in combination with these sources