What is the stone for on a flat roof? What kind of protection should you use for EPDM, TPO or Torch

[@richb5574]

I saw you said you are not an EPDM expert. I am. I was Firestone’s compounder and have consulted with numerous other manufacturer’s of EPDM over the years. EPDM samples that were put out 60 years ago are still functional. The carbon black is an almost perfect UV sink. It absorbs the UV and reradiates it as IR (infrared). EPDM has extreme tolerance of heat. The double bonds are pendant to the main backbone chain so UV and Ozone do not have an easy target like they do with other polymers. The “chalking” you talk about is generally dirt that is picked up on the surface of the sheet. There is very little measurable loss of thickness over time. The shrinkage issue has basically two components. The first is installation error. If the sheet is stretched into pace and then not allowed to relax that stress that is induced in the sheet during installation will pull to try to return to its original dimensions. This is the reason that there is a relaxation time required as a part of the installation practice. The second reason for shrinkage particularly with ballasted roofs has to do with the coefficient of thermal expansion. As the sheet cools it moves the rock ever so slightly towards the center of the roof. When the roof heats the rubber can’t push it back so over time the walls pull and the center has wrinkles. I am not going to discuss the formulations for mod bit as the polymer choice APP or SBS makes a huge difference in the UV performance along with a wide variety of other compounding choices. There is excellent information available from SPRI, the NRCA and other groups that would improve the professionalism of your videos.

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

Rich B Excellent comment. Thanks for the detail explanation. However, I only go by what I see on roofs. EPDM does not perform as well as manufacturers claim to do. The materials elasticity is much different 15 years later as from when it was new. You explain this very well. This just means that it’s not protected, but has a tolerance against UV’s. At the end, it will be destroyed. How long EPDM will last, anyone can give their 2 penny’s on that. My experience is in 30 years I have yet to see an EPDM Rubber that has no issues after 12 years. The older it gets, the less it becomes. That’s just a fact of life and earth. Only metal and stone can withstand UV’s. Everything else will go. I have a lot of wrinkles. So does EPDM rubber after a short 15 years meaning it’s life is over. Almost. Thanks again for your very knowledge and sharing it with us.

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

This comment has been out for over a year. I really appreciate your input. My experience on EPDM rubber is 1. It does shrink a lot 2. It does get brittle 3. Maybe the EPDM is not what goes first but the adhesives that are used on the seams. The contact cement just can't withstand the heat over several years. Watch this video I have made that shows exactly what I mean. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qam7c4Zmq5ibjLs

[@nicholaspereira9539]

100000% THE TRUTH .... THE WHTE TPO WE USE IN CANADA IS CERTAINLY UV RESISTANT. and does not require gravel..... people walking on it would simply justput holes everywhere...... not sure if your the ",,roof doctor," id be calling to do my home ... go back to the butchers shop. 👍

[@Brandon-no3vc]

@@FlatRoofDoctor rich b probably hasnt bin on a roof in his life haha

[@domitorid177]

Wow, so much water buildup. Where's the slope and drain?

[@nyplantingsgardendesigners5645]

Holy cow I could never handle the ladder I am afraid of heights. Thanks for vid. I build roof gardens in the city.

[@waheedmalik4096]

Does the weight of the gravel not have an impact on the roof?

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

Not at all. Most structures are designed to carry far more weight than anticipated. Like 6' of snow, a bunch of people on one spot, and so on. One of the reasons why you see commercial roofs cave-in is when drains are not functioning properly. Snow is not a problem on a roof, but if it melts and the water can't get off, and more snow piles up and more rain, that roof will eventually collapse. If you can find videos on roofs that cave in, you will always notice the water that goes with it.

[@waheedmalik4096]

@@FlatRoofDoctor thank you doc. And as for the size of the gravel, any size?

[@gregsbrown85]

According to GAF modified bitumen is supposed to have standing water. I just met with on of their reps last week. They claim that really only TPO is made to allow for standing water due to the welded seams. The rep explains that bitumen will break down quicker due to the water. My honest opinion is that it comes down to the installer and not so much the material. I've seen a lot of TPO systems and emailed work leak like crazy due to improper installation.

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

Hi Noobx You start your comment "is supposed to have standing water" meaning it should have standing water on it. Then you said the rep of GAF is against it. Here is my opinion. No roof should have pooling water more than 48 hours at a time. Pooling water enhances plant growth and insect breeding. I have seen ponds on roofs where the ducks came to swim daily and for 20 years the Torch Down roof never deteriorated to a point that it had to be replaced. This video I took kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJ-6l5yGh7JkrZo shows where plants have grown on the roof over 5 years. So, when somone say something without any back-up, is just an a opinion and not a fact. Even a rep working for a company. I agree about the TPO roofing system. I have seen so many leak at the seams. My observation is that the welding of the seams are to inconsistent. When someone welds a TPO seam, they can't see how well it is welding, it is by feeling alone. After they welded a seam, they then use a probe to see if all the seams welded properly. Not a very good system to proof something. Anyway, thanks for your comment. Have a nice day. Today is the 3rd of July and in the US everyone is getting ready for the 4th of July celebrations. Ps. Please come back and write another comment. I like to hear from you. Best regards Naas

[@meharsharma428]

Does stone also help in cooling roof during summer?

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

It does not cool the roof, but it prevents the direct sun on the roof material which in turns help to keep it cool

[@jeremybaumgart]

I want to redo a flat roof on a brick building where the brick walls extend about 1 foot above the roof deck and then are capped with removable terra cotta wall caps. I can see how the torch down will work well for the flat areas of the roof, but how would you get it to adhere to the inside of the brick parapet walls? I can see how it would work ok if I were adhering it over the existing modified bitumen roof, but there are too many layers to go over this roof again so I need to tear it all off down to the bare wood deck and bare brick walls. You have a lot of videos showing torch down applied to wood frame parapet walls but I haven't found one where you apply it over brick walls. Assuming torch down would actually work for this application, please explain or do a video. Thanks in advance for your help!

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

Hi Who decides that a flat roof cannot have more than 2 layers?. I understand the code in most states requires that after 2 layers you need to tear it off before putting a new layer on. That applies to shingles and for a good reason. Nailing shingles over to many layers will not work. In the old days, it was not advisable to add a second layer Hot Tar (build up Roof) over an old one. But, with the single ply membranes, there is no reason why you can't have multiple layers of rubber. As long as the surface is not compromised, as in rotten substrate or soft areas. Now, I am not an EPDM Rubber Expert (I think it's the worst roofing material), but I don't think you can install 2 layers of EPDM directly on top of each other. I am a Torch Down guy, I have installed Torch Down roofs over any surface imaginable. Here is the list: Build-up roof, stone-covered roofs, asbestos tiles, copper roof, metal roofs, shingle roofs, EPDM Roofs, TPO Roofs, Spray foam roofs (I have a video on that coming soon). As long as the surface is solid, there is no reason to tear it down. The best is when there is an existing Torch Down Rubber roof, no matter how bad it is, it is still benefi=cial to use that as the base for a new torch down roof. Fusing the 2 layers together makes for the best roof ever. It will outlast any other roofing system. If you check Firestone's website, you will see plans 2 and 3 layers of torch down. Now your Question. Since you are only going up 12 to 15 inches up to a brick wall, you can torch directly to the brick wall and it will stick. By the way, most of my videos on Torch Down roofs show existing parapet walls that are either cement or brick or whatever that is full of tar and junk of old repairs. I leave everything as is and go right over it. What makes a difference is I bring the membrane over the parapet wall and attach it to the terra cotta wall caps. I remove the ribs on the terra cotta wall caps as to get a flat smooth surface. I just realized I have not posted a video on how I do it. I will try to upload one today.

[@jeremybaumgart]

@@FlatRoofDoctor thanks!

[@BUSTRCHERRI]

Don't ask this guy any flat roofing questions. Hes so far out on left field it's not even funny. His roofING practices are totally laughable withing the commercial/industrial flat roofing industry. Go to an actual company and show them these videos of his. They'll have a good laugh. 40 and 50 years from s tar and gravel roof is a total joke as is the 60 year claim for two ply modified (torch on) this guy shouldn't even be in business.

[@kariesistansteckend2196]

@@BUSTRCHERRI I have a 40 year bitumen/tar roof. It is made 1980 in West Germany. The roof is not leaking all the time. But it become cracks and i think it wil not hold 50 years.

[@kat0197]

So how much more weight is now on the roof? Is this safe??

[@V-ANews]

Nice I use to work for a vanity company qhere we had a vaccume truck and we qould cone and vaccume the rocks off commercial buildings so the roofer could replace it

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

I know about that service. but I found leaving the stone on the roof helped to give a smoother surface and with the 3 ply system, I implemented it was wonderfi=ul. The reason contractors had the stone removed, is because they were stripping all the roofing off.

[@glennsmith6380]

looks like a lot of standing water on that roof

[@Brandon-no3vc]

Thanks doc. So no problem walking on stones if you do a double layer top Cap?

[@elizabethgonzalez2581]

After watching many of your videos (which I enjoyed) I’m wondering why didn’t you apply a silicone system

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

Silicone are good on some surfaces and others not. Turbo is a Asphalt Resin and Urethane resin product which makes it compatible with the asphalt roof

[@toiturejfl7751]

What do you do with the water it’s under water I saw negative slope?

[@richb5574]

That does not look like ASTM #4 stone. This stone is too small to provide adequate ballast for a loose-laid roofing system. Check Chapter 15 of the IBC. Black EPDM is inherently UV resistant because of the Carbon Black. TPO has stabilization added to provide protection. this roof does not meet the building code as it does not have adequate slope to drain.

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

OK, so why do EPDM and TPO roofs fail? They may have whatever composition to help against UV, but they eventually fail. Those components are just to get a longer life out of the material, not protection. The only element that is UV safe is metal, ceramic and stone. Everything else will succumb to ultraviolet rays. You can be a millionaire if you can find something that would protect EPDM or TPO forever. I'll buy shares. What makes Modified Bitumen Better is the ceramic granule layer. This is not always 100% fool prove because some brands these granules wear off. The Silver coat people paint over a Modified Bitumen Roof is excellent protection too.

[@IluvSelenamore]

Can I add a small deck ontop of the gravel on a flat rooftop? Or would I have to make modifications?

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

I fyou have an existing old hot tar and gravel roof, then it is best to first replace it with a new roof. The Hot Tar and gravel roof only last between 20 - 30 years, some longer. So don't take a chance to put something on top of it if.

[@nicholaspereira9539]

give me a call 416 995 4673

[@etiennechampanhet]

I just bought a brand new house and over our bedroom is a flat roof that is black. Is it a good idea to put a light coloured gravel even tho there’s no foot traffic up there? Can gravel end up damaging brand new laid out flat roofing? I’m super confused because here in the Netherlands 40% of houses have gravel and the others don’t and just leave the black roofing exposed. Is there a reason for this? We’re boiling in the room at night…

[@peterduxbury927]

You can buy the EPDM Roofing Material that has a thin Aluminium Metal Coating. This would reflect the IR and UV from the sun's heat, and make for a cooler bedroom. This Roofing Material can also be self-adhesive - if you clean the surfaces to be bonded really well.

[@kkr5769]

does anyone here have experience and advice on these types of gravel roofs? Ones leaking how should i seal it???

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

very hard. You need to scrape off the gravel with a spade, clean the surface to get it free of dust, Use a torch to heat up the surface to remove imbedded stone with the spade, then you can repair it with a rubber membrane

[@davidstothers8395]

This must be a Saturday... lol 😆

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

something like that LOL

[@diggadee7889]

That water and roofing dont go together

[@yennyzhou]

why need this kind roof make home owner repair so difficult ？

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

old style

[@BrunnoNoBsTheRoofer]

You are completely wrong !! Oh my gosh !! 😭😭

[@venomousg-ou1np]

With all that water on that roof all that stone is gonna wash away, also you pointed at the flashing where you showed it was “spider web” and you didn’t address 🤦‍♂️ stop ripping ppl off and get off the roof!!!!

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

Your comment shows how little experience you have. 1. The stone will never wash off. it has been used like this for 60 years 2. I pointed out why the stone is needed, to protect the roof against UV's. This video was not about how to repair or address the existing membrane. duh! 3. You sound like someone that just want to be negative without any good reason. Working for the Union or someone will get you depressed. I am sorry about your attitude. 4. Maybe you should start with some lessons on bettering your life and your comments might improve.

[@ranat5526]

Walking and talking on the roof is not a good idea, you might just fall off the edge!

[@FlatRoofDoctor]

My Golden rule is: never walk backwards on a roof, but always forward.

[@alberttatlock5104]

Swimming pool🤪