What is this mystery shotgun? Greener Police Shotgun with firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson

This weapon has even Jonathan stumped! If you know what this gun is please comment below.
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[@DSlyde]

Not that Jonathan didn't do a good job, but the caption/footnote guy really put in good effort on this video. We appreciate you too caption guy!

[@drunkchey9739]

these are auto generated subtitles dude

[@DSlyde]

@@drunkchey9739 not the subtitles, the editor added notes like at 3:54 explaining what EG stood for in that context

[@Mr_T_Badger]

This is a man who clearly loves his job.

[@LenKusov]

The Martini-action 8 bore kiln guns are still being made, just not by Greener. Winchester makes their RingBlaster tripod-mounted shotguns based on a Martini action, meant for removing hardened coal slag and such in industrial firing kilns and boilers without shutting it down, by blasting it with a belted 3 inch magnum loads. Standard loads are 2oz zinc or 3oz lead, either slugs or buck, traveling 1700-2000fps. Seriously powerful stuff.

[@berryreading4809]

I love those things, though I've only seen pictures and videos of them in operation, but its fascinating... sometimes complex expensive problems require easy solutions... if the shotgun won't do they just call in an explosives contractor for just the right amount of energetics 😄👍

[@dreadnought8363]

What I don't quite understand is how those shotguns don't damage the Refractory inside the kiln🤔

[@LenKusov]

@@dreadnought8363 Most of the kilns with exposed refractory are gas fired for solid objects like bricks, which don't need de-slagged with a shotgun. These are typically used in rotary kilns for concrete, or coal-fired ones with metal liners meant to be cleaned easily, as well as for coal-fired boilers which have to take pretty crazy pressures so are effectively armored. Lead and zinc are soft too.

[@dreadnought8363]

@@LenKusov thanks for the explanation.

[@baronobeefdipyes5181]

@@LenKusov was wondering the same, used to work at an aluminum plant and was always told to be careful not to break the refractory of we were raking out the dross or "dry cleaning" when the melter was empty.

[@IdiotandOpinion]

I bought one of those in a New Mexico gun store. Bore was sized for 12 gauge and it’s the greatest single shot shotgun I own.

[@matthaught4707]

I've seen crates of ammo sold through surplus stores over the last few years. It was a brass shell that looked like a .303 necked up to take a full-diameter round ball crimped into the case mouth. I was told it was from Pakistan, used by their police (possibly during the colonial days)

[@AngPur]

Those are .410s used in Indian shotgun conversion Enfields. They were single shots. The Indian government gave them to people like prison guards who needed a standardized gun, but not rapid fire or .303 power.

[@brittakriep2938]

Mr. Ian Mc Collum from ,Forgotten Weapons' channel has a video about this gun.

[@johnforeman6620]

About fifty years ago I worked in Birmingham for a company called Bailons. It was started and run by two ex W. W. Greener managers. I remember they told me about testing these shooting ball at a car. The ball went through the grill, radiator, knocked off the carb', through the engine bulk head, front seat and lodged itself in the rear seat.

[@kabardino1337]

Damn, those guns are beasts!

[@kayagorzan]

Holy god damn

[@rumblin_cynth_rampo374]

In the late 70 I was installing comms gear in the RUC Headquarters in Knock. In the control room they had a small rack of 4 Greeners. Talking to the sgt in the control room these guns had been there for as long as he could remember. He said they used to take them to the ranges in the 60s and shoot them. But they couldnt get the ammo for them as it was a bit strange. He also said that they could never get ammo for one of the guns as it was different to the rest. The guns were just kept in the control room, they hadnt got round to disposing of them.

[@elitearbor]

Ha, I have a few of those. I had to turn the hulls from brass bar just to shoot those with the original barrels, although I did end up taking one that had the worst condition barrel and rebarreling it to a standard chambering. Thankfully the breech was easy enough to modify back to a flat face. I always get compliments on the sleek nature of that shotgun when shooting skeet.

[@bugsymcgee3310]

00:15 That's a Greener shotgu- oh!.... Yeah... nevermind...

[@barkerjames1980]

Thanks for the video! I own a rifle built from a Greener EG MKIII Martini. It is in .45-70 Government and sports a 32" heavy octagonal barrel. It a ton of fun to shoot!

[@RatchetandClank145]

Would anyone else love to just sit down and have a conversation with Jonathan about random firearms in their collection and firearm history in general? His videos are some of my favorite to watch.

[@paulchilds1893]

"Martini Action" always sounds like a James Bond parody.

[@scrappydoo7887]

Or vodka martini action if released behind the Berlin wall lol

[@SnoopReddogg]

Nothing worse than ordering a Martini and some clod brings you a beverage with an olive in it.

[@flyinace54]

What an absolutely beautiful shotgun, and very cool to boot thank you for the video. Guess that's one more entry to the list of guns I want to buy!

[@3starperfectdeer233]

You ever get it?

[@michaelguerin56]

It is my understanding that kiln guns are used to remove material from the walls of cement kilns i.e., not to seal holes in kilns!

[@cazarilolsen4630]

Beautiful weapon.

[@0bverse]

Random thought 1: might the intended load be .476 Eley, as used in Lancaster oval-bore pistols? Random thought 2: have you tried a P14/P17 bayonet on it?

[@thedrifter2790]

I absolutely adore Greener’s productions! I own a Martini-Cadet in 32-20 WCF and it’s such a lovely piece!

[@mikekemp9877]

during my training in the met police at hendon in the early 70s we used deactivated greener shot guns and hammerless trigger guard removed colt police positives in our unarmed combat lessons concerned with disarming felons with guns! i presume they were old no longer in use police weapons deactivated for police trainig.

[@LukeBunyip]

Trust it was of assistance.

[@mikekemp9877]

@@LukeBunyip as in those days we only had a truncheon no handcuffs even no protective gear whatsoever anything was of assistance!

[@mikekemp9877]

@@madisntit6547 at notting hill in 73 yes !

[@tonkajjz109]

Old bloke at my local clay shoot used to have an old 1929 gp greener underleaver shot gun supposedly used by police in South Africa

[@keithallardice6139]

Well, to be totally honest, if YOU don't know then what chance do we have...? ;-) Who you gonna call..? GUN JESUS!!!!

[@jon9021]

I’m sure the harpoon version is used by Quint in Jaws.

[@johnhodges8264]

No, that was a Bland.

[@lesjames5191]

Yes I'm also sure it was a Greener ,it was featured on antiques road show (UK).

[@EnglishCountryLife]

It was indeed, Forgotten Weapons featured it in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHLbfHmCnZtkj8U

[@timareskog2418]

Notoriously used by the CIA in the late 60's to early 70's to fire harpoons as a way of "getting the message across" to their enemies.

[@deadhorse1391]

Yes…I was the back up bidder on one years ago at a small country auction I now wish I went high

[@AndrewHardwick-hh8sl]

To quote my grand daughter a couple of decades ago, I need it Poppy. That's all of them. Firing my Martini Henry nearly 60 years ago must have turned my brain.😂

[@teggwynlewis9803]

W.W greener also made the Bell gun, worlds first ‘humane killer’ using greeners .310 cartridge.

[@samholdsworth3957]

Thank you for sharing with us Jonathan

[@etiennebozec855]

Wow Martini shotgun, that's what you call a cool gun

[@dooberrypie]

Greener also increased the thickness of the rim for the 12/14 cartridge, significantly increasing the headspace. So not just the trident firing pin but also the seating of the cartridge in the breach.

[@ferdinand12390]

are you taunting us with that PTRS on the back? kinda need to see you holding it or standing next to it

[@Brunners90]

Think that was for his video about weapons in Hell Let Loose on GameSpot

[@jyfuklyvfkj]

as a proud owner of a Greener Martini action GP shotgun 12GA, made circa 1933, I really enjoyed this video, more please!

[@andrewpease3688]

"Solved the problem by necking down ", the universal solution.

[@X9Z17]

Spencer 12-Gauge Martini Springfield, wow, one of a kind! 🦈

[@katanavx0331]

Always a pleasure learning from you, Jonathan! Keep up the great work! Would love to see firing demonstrations of the guns showcased in this and other videos, by you or any other member of the Royal Armories.

[@dem0nchild610]

I would love to own one of these I'm a huge fan of older firearms I just started collecting

[@letsgoraiding]

I love the Martini action.

[@serridgeas]

I own a 70s greener martini action, love it for longer range clays

[@nikitamckeever5403]

Got one , Greener Police , and worked out how to shoot 12g even though it has the protruding lugs either side of the firing pin . I do shoot it and enjoy every moment . Even got the original oil bottle in the butt . Solid , reliable gun that shoots Lyman 1 1/4 oz slugs very accurately at 50yds . A bit heavy for clays but I do shoot them . I do feel like Stanley Baker when I take it out of the gun cabinet . Ps I wish I had your access to those fantastic historical firearms , muskets etc . You are very lucky to be in your position and your videos are excellent . Thank you .

[@ultraflair04]

>Wonder what we should put in the background >how bout a double barrel? >no that's too boring >how bout that 1887 lever action? Everyone likes the terminator. >no,no, something else........ I've got it! An anti tank rifle!

[@MrAvant123]

I had a Greener GP shotgun in 12 Bore -- great and bombproof gun.

[@hammyh1165]

Friend of mine has a couple of factory sawn off shotguns for police use , I think it was Viking arms that produced them in the seventies or eighties. They are side by sides with factory short barrels , maybe 16" from memory. with rifle style open sights . I can only think they are for rubber bullets or buckshot.

[@fistfightcaleb5406]

Saw the thumbnail and said "well its apparently a Martini Henry shotgun. But I suppose its not a Martini Henry because there's no Henry rifling. So I guess its just a Martini shotgun. But now I know its a Greener Police shotgun. I'll watch the video now

[@ianmcclellan7695]

I recognised the Martini action when I saw the photo on Twitter, but the rest of the weapon foxed me.

[@tomjoseph1444]

I had one of the .22 conversions years ago. It was a laugh to shoot, The gun is so heavy and long you hardly could tell when the shell went off. You would then drop the huge block and this little tiny shell would pop out.

[@andyjones6643]

I leaned to shoot be 11 with a martini action .22 lovely little thing and quite accurate on a range

[@AndyAndy-bg7mv]

i had a .22 greener rifle 1876 great gun

[@gonzo_the_great1675]

I have a whole set of original workshop drawings for these 14 bore guns, with the three prong firing pin. Very grubby, as they were the copies for use on the benches. A friend was tidying' up when Greeners were closing down. The examples of the shotguns I have are very rusty and look to be made from parts. Too far gone for much restoration, but interesting pieces. Also am in the prosess of restoring (rescuing!) one of the Greener converted smallbore martini rifles, that were also mentioned.

[@MrPh30]

Very good episode, would you make a episode about Paradox/ Explora one time? As that is a very fascinating and versatile part of the British design and mechanical history

[@LPsquishybottom]

I came accrossed one of these in a small ffl in michigan

[@russelsellick316]

My uncle John (ex RN) was called up in 1947 to help quell rioting in Lusaka (now Zambia) they fired one round each (3) and the crowd ran away..

[@deadhorse1391]

I remember seeing Martini shotguns for sale in the old Shotgun News. Were 14 gauge and shells used a primer they required a special firing pin. Always struck me as strange the British was so worried about loosing single shot guns they went to this trouble Think they were being sold for less then $100

[@MichaelEdelman1954]

A lot of those were rebarreled, given new firing fins, and converted for various cartridges. A gunsmith friend offered me a .22 carbine built on a Greener action at a very attractive price back then, but as a poor student I couldn’t afford it ☹️

[@kurtkrill5300]

has had several over the decades,first one i paid 5 bucks which included shipping

[@ddraig1957]

I enjoy Jonathan's videos but I was surprised to see him on an episode of the Yesterday Channel's War Factories series saying that the Bren Gun used 20 round magazines and not 30 round magazines. For some reason I suspect he was thinking of the BAR when he said this.It was certainty a case of bad editing by program's production team but it happens a lot in these kinds of shows.

[@alimanski7941]

Jonathan, any chance of a video made on curiosities found in the aforementioned ammunition collection?

[@johnfisk811]

I note the piling swivel is retained. My best guess is that it was for a native state police force using/reusing as many Martini parts as possible to keep the costs down. Or at least a sales prototype to try on that market. The argument against that is that it would be cheapest to just bore out an existing 450 Martini with a chamber insert.

[@alohm]

My first reaction was what you mentioned a special arm designed for local use in India. I even remember mention of a bayonet etc... After looking on the internet? Not sure why I said that before the video started? Thought it was a GunJebus video, or an old article?

[@kabardino1337]

I remember Indian shotgun-converted enfield rifles, and I think it was from forgotten weapons

[@berryreading4809]

Kiln/ring&slag busting shotguns have always intrigued me... Even on modern American forges they have what is basically a small field artillery piece chambered for specialty 8 guage shotgun rounds, I know we didn't invent the concept, but I feel its a very American way of solving the problem 😆 I'd still love to watch the first person to conceptualize, then implement firing a regular of the shelf shoulder fired smoothbore into a searing hot forge, I have a feeling it didn't take long from idea to implementation 😄👍

[@WanderlustZero]

Excellent t-shirt today sir!

[@julianmhall]

Ahh thank you! I've never actually seen a description of what a shotgun bore means. So 12 would be bigger than 14.. makes sense :)

[@samuellow7812]

So what I am gathering is that one greener shotgun is official and has a somewhat recorded record. The other greener shotgun smle has a chamber for a .476 round, a bayonet and a purpose either not recorded or was a experimental idea sold to east indian police of the 19th century.

[@hungryhedgehog4201]

Kiln guns are for shooting the slag of the sides not sealing afaik. Went down the rabidhole of industrial shotguns at some point. They even use some special ammo which I assume just like melts into the other metal.

[@thor-ericsson]

Is the Martini mechanism the same as the lever mechanism found on guns like the Winchester 1887? Or is it two different kind of mechanisms, that just looks similar to the untrained eye?

[@FelixstoweFoamForge]

It's a totally different system buddy. Much stronger but single shot only.

[@MrPanos2000]

The Peabody/Martini system is basically falling block. The lever guns you have in mind use levers to actuate horizontal bolt movement, whereas this drops the breech down. Unfortunately it does not work with any kind of magazine and as such no repeaters of this style exist

[@Repenter0]

The Winchester 1887 is a lever action rifle. It has an integrated tube magazine, and is operated by moving the lever to eject spent casings, feed new rounds from the magazine, and otherwise operate the rifle. The "martini action" is a single shot rifle, there is no magazine or anything of the sort. You open the breach, insert a round by hand, close the breach, fire, then open the breech and remove the spent casing and insert a new one to repeat the process much of it done by hand/manually. This is what was used prior to bolt action rifles really catching on. All in all very different mechanically speaking.

[@paulancill3872]

Martine rifles were converted to 410 Shotguns and sold in the UK

[@richrock8960]

I have one of the Martinis converted for the Indian police that I inherited from my grandfather along with two fired cases. I never knew much else about it and have it put away for conservation.

[@owllymannstein7113]

Some of the 14 gauge Greeners were imported into America, where they had their chambers bored out to accept 12 gauge shells while retaining the 14 gauge bore. I haven't shot one but I suspect recoil might be a bit unpleasant.

[@EricRovelo]

It's not a mystery item, it's a gun!

[@JayeOFarrell]

I'd love to see you do a video on the Mars Automatic Pistol with some of the history around it as well.

[@robertmurray.7361]

nice PTRS in the background Johnathan.

[@davidstegman8147]

Could be a Home Guard or a training rifle before the Army went full bolt action? As you say its in .303 caliber and not 14 gauge or 12 gauge.

[@brittakriep2938]

Ian Mc Collum from ,Forgotten Weapons' channel showed a Indian police shotgun, made from repeasting rifle. The ammunition had been . 303 cartridges, widened up to .410.

[@davidstegman8147]

@@brittakriep2938 I saw that however the rifle in that was an Enfield bolt action rifle and not a Greener with a Martini action.

[@ForgeFireCustoms]

I found an Indian police .410 shotgun, based on an SMLE action, at a flea market once. Passed it up on my first look and then changed my mind 5 minutes later, but someone else was already walking away with it.

[@rmod42]

Fascinating

[@Alakazzam09]

Okay Jonathan, this is a sexy beast. That ammo is super interesting, I've never seen anything like it. I remember Ian making a video on a .410 SMLE conversion. If you have one of those I think we'd all love to see it and get your thoughts.

[@FiendTheKing]

Always wanted a rebarreled Greener - never have run into one for a price I could stomach.

[@KDX420]

these come up for auction in canada from time to time. they usually sell between $200-300. been thinking of buying one to shoot trap with, just for shits lol.

[@andrewstraub131]

Greener also made that awesome harpoon gun from jaws I want it badly

[@harrier331]

I have one, they do come up for sale but rarely. The last one I saw was in Mexico but the owner would not ship internationally. He wanted around $4000 for it.

[@MegaBoilermaker]

The GP was also chambered in 16 bore.

[@magnusskipton7067]

I bet that particular one is a trails one for the nra, at first i figured it was someone’s sporter conversion until you mentioned the “made by greener for the nra” so that’s my bet

[@jameskellard5075]

Was the Greener the shotgun used by BSAP (British South Africa Police) in Rhodesia?

[@atomicfrost9204]

Do you know what items were issued in the storage compartment in the butt stock. I have a 1925 Greener Police shotgun in 12/14 and I would like to know what goes in that compartment.

[@EricHamm]

Somebody support this channel with an editor!

[@christophersilsby7829]

A local ffl dealer had one of 14ga, it was 330-$,

[@johnreed3576]

Pretty sure this was the brass cartridged 410 shotgun (made using 303 brass?)

[@frenchy18692]

As has been stated previously in the comments, perhaps it is an experimental gun. Could it have been done as a test piece to establish the costs, material, time and feasibility for converting stocks of Greener .303 guns to the Indian .476?

[@andrewsmall1746]

I was offered a 12 bore Greener GP for free recently as the owner had been quoted £75 just to dispose of it. The GP's are pretty much worthless in the UK. I also have a box of unfired 14 gauge Eley Kynoch paper over brass if anyone in the UK has a gun. I'm a shooting instructor and have never seen a 14 gauge/bore.

[@thewardenmohdizuddin5407]

In halo shotgun the extension is on top of the shotgun like UTS 15 but unlike the UTS 15 the halo shotgun have one extension is its hard to load shotgun on top of the barrel

[@mattheweagles5123]

Did any old Martini's get surplused and converted to civilian shotguns?

[@corditesniffer8020]

I really want to know what pattern of bayonet that takes!! Doesn’t take the standard 07 pattern bayonet but it looks so perfect for it That’s a real head scratcher and a fantastic piece to show off

[@Smkb3custom]

Sorry for the late reply. I've just grabbed my 1907 off the shelf as I had a hunch, and compared it to my 1887 pattern. The 1887 is almost identical to the 1907, just a bit longer. It would also fit timeline wise. The 1888 I've got is way out, as the barrel/clip parts are mounted on opposite sides of the handle.

[@corditesniffer8020]

@@Smkb3custom I’ve sadly only got a Pattern 07 bayonet to my name in that particular era Haven’t been lucky enough to land a Martini or Lee Metford patten bayonets haha

[@Smkb3custom]

@@corditesniffer8020 Yeah I was lucky, found an 1887 Mk.IV on a market stall, and the seller wanted £50 for it. You can see the 1887 and the 1907 in this pic (either side of the 1888) i.imgur.com/1ZobpNa.jpg

[@corditesniffer8020]

@@Smkb3customwhat a collection 😍

[@Smkb3custom]

@@corditesniffer8020 Thanks, but there's a couple of Repo's in there. the No4 is a Belgium production one, and the grips on the 1913 are modern cowboy replacements, so it's not all perfect. Plus, do you think I can find a 1903 to save my life?

[@boomslangCA]

Were all of these converted from old Martini receivers or were some built from scratch? Just curious.

[@busman56]

The Greener shotgun was used extensively by the British South African Police for riot control. It was also used by the Rhodesia Railways Security Department. I continued inservice until the late 1980’s

[@maotisjan]

What is that anti-tank rifle or just rifle in the background ?

[@raymaxwell2940]

The Lee Metford 1888 Bayonet will be the one for the above model

[@Smkb3custom]

the barrel mount and the handle clip are on opposite sides to each other on the 88 bayonet. An 1887 looks like a slightly longer 1907.

[@TrainmanDan]

On one of the guns the firing pin has three projections. The cartridge case has a deep recess around the primer that the outside projections fit into allowing the centre pin to strike the primer. Of course simply taking out the firing pin and removing the outside projections will allow you to fire standard ammo to your hearts content. I guess they thought that that was beyond the average 'rebel's' intellect.

[@dooberrypie]

Not quite, as the Mk3 with trident firing pin has a 12/14 bottle necked chamber, so useless to standard 12 gauge cartridges.

[@noahknight8474]

Idk why but it looked to me like someone tried to mix a martini Henry and a enfield

[@exploatores]

It´s a realy nice khyberpass copy :)

[@jishb2505]

Jonathan, what's your opinion on the use of the MP43/44 in Stalingrad the new CoD Vanguard gameplay trailer? It doesn't look like the Mkb42 so it has to be an anachronism, right?

[@Chrisconditioning]

Would be good in the hunt

[@julianmhall]

I'm tempted to suggest 'Burleigh and Stronginthearm' as the makers but as they're a fictional creation of the late Sir Terry Pratchett maybe not *lol*

[@RandomJunk99]

I’ve got a standard 12b police model marked to the Hong Kong Police…

[@flipperthepenguin3885]

I can't say that I fully understand the premise of a police shotgun being specially chambered to make it harder for anyone else to use. Surely the police are usually fairly good at keeping an eye on their guns and not letting them get into the wrong hands. In my mind it seems unthathomable that they would go to all that effort to mitigate a problem that shouldn't even be a problem. Did they used to leave their guns lieing around on street corners or something?

[@kkpikfy]

From my understanding it was less a worry about individual guns being taken from officers it was more a worry about them being stolen in bulk while they were being transport where they were generally more vulnerable anyway.

[@robbikebob]

Corrupt police selling guns?

[@flipperthepenguin3885]

@@robbikebob Ahhh, it all makes sense now. Suddenly my eyes are open

[@johnfisk811]

The original Greener police guns were near 14 bore but the poor Egyptian con stables were known to ‘rent’ them out and criminals would wrap a 16 bore cartridge in paper to chamber them. It all came out when a ‘renter’ used a cheap old French paper 16 bore cartridge to try to shoot his wife but the case split and the shooter was injured. Every cartridge had to be returned after the shift and a full report, with the fired cartridge, had to be made if the gun were fired. Often issued with but the one round. These things were out on all three shifts 24/7 so very much knocked about and the outside sometimes cleaned with (free) sand. I expect that this was Greeners bid to sell guns to the Indian Police even cheaper by using up their store of refurbished Martini military receivers and chambering for the Indian .476 buckshot round. .476 being a simple rebore of the Martini barrel to smooth. Much more often used to hit the naughty people with the gun itself rather than fire it.

[@acolytetojippity]

is there a difference between "bore" in this context and "gauge"? I'm used to hearing shotguns classed based on gauge (12-gauge, 14-gauge, etc)

[@vinterfe1558]

Not really knowledgeable enough to say for sure, but based off what I know + what I've seen online, bore is the interior diameter of a gun, and gauge is based off of the amount of lead balls you'd need to have in the bore to make up the weight of 1 pound. So 6 balls in the bore would be a 6 gauge. From what I'm seeing online, it doesn't work like that anymore, though and so I'm guessing the terms just stuck even if they don't really mean much now.

[@acolytetojippity]

@@vinterfe1558 i mean, Jonathan was saying that the lead ball size thing is the bore. Maybe it's just different terms for the same thing, just depends on the country.

[@dooberrypie]

The correct expression of calibre is actually gauge-bore - The bore describes the principle of 1lb of lead divided into identical portions, melted into identical diameter balls which gives the bore size - The bore being the diameter of the chamber. The gauge is defined as the bore diameter minus the wall thickness of the cartridge measured 9” from the breachface to give the gauge diameter.

[@scrappydoo7887]

I love that the clarification of "bore" has to be made lol

[@NaginataMike]

Nice! IV8888 shot this. :)

[@F1ghteR41]

Where are the WW Greener archives now? Is it possible to trace this pattern there?