What Key Is Hallelujah In?

[@12tone]

The first 1000 people to use this link will get 30% off an annual Skillshare Premium Membership: skl.sh/12tone04211​ Some additional thoughts/corrections: 1) Some of y'all may remember that I already did a video on Hallelujah that touched on these themes. In fact, it was my first song analysis ever, but I wanted to use it again here 'cause it's such a good demonstration of the concept. Besides, only like 4 minutes of this video are even really _about_ Hallelujah. 2) When I said that neither C nor Ami is ever used in a way that implies further motion, that's arguably not entirely true. Specifically, the first Ami in the second half of the verse (The "minor fall") could be read as implying motion, but that implication is never really followed up on and you can also read it as being stable, so I decided not to count it. (I think mostly that implication comes from having just heard such a strong establishment of C, which the A minor is there to refute, so the motion it implies is less to another chord and more back to the double-tonic equilibrium anyway.) 3) To give credit where it's due, the linguistic ambiguity analogy comes directly from Dr. Nobile's paper. I changed them around a bit (He used "I have arrived at the bank", not "the club is on fire") but the structure is the same. 4) The Sweet Home Alabama thing raises an interesting question: If the tonic is the note D, which can expand up with F# and A to be D major or down with B and G to be G major, can it also take one of each, grabbing B and F# to make a tonic B minor? Would that work as a I chord in the context of the song? Hard to say 'cause we never hear it (Although I did try adding one with… uninspiring results.) but it opens up the exciting possibility of a _triple_ tonic complex. 5) If you happen to have access to Music Theory Spectrum, you should read Dr. Nobile's article! It's very good: academic.oup.com/mts/article-abstract/42/2/207/5828430 6) Oh! I forgot to mention the part where he sings "It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth", strongly implying that the underlying F and G chords are the IV and V, putting us in C. I don't think it's actually super relevant, since most folks listening to the song won't really know what that means, but just in case you were wondering, here's some quick thoughts on that. On the one hand, perceptual key isn't the same as intentional key. Cohen may have been thinking of it exclusively in C major, but that doesn't mean that's how it comes across. But also, Cohen was a very clever songwriter, and he may very well have been using those words to further emphasize the subversive effect of the resolution to A minor. Evidence for this includes the fact that, when he sings "the minor fall", both the harmony and the melody rise, along with the fact that this line kicks off a chain of 13 bars in a row where they never play C major.

[@crvlwanek]

Finally, we know David's secret chord that pleased the Lord: E7/G#

[@flatfingertuning727]

I like the Hal Leonard sheet music key of Bb, since the secret chord is really a D7 chord in my alternative tuning (G-D-d-f-g#-b), voiced x-D-f#-a-c-f# (x-0-4-4-4-7). I find singing the low D very satisfying.

[@crvlwanek]

My bad David, I spilled the tea

[@MinerDiner]

But the chord he should've played is Gsus

[@crvlwanek]

@@MinerDiner It is the holiest of all chords

[@PJErvin]

Any dominant to the relative minor will do.

[@JohnathanWhitehorn]

LOL THE ADAM NEELY VOICE

[@glottalstop2080]

İKR

[@jakekeys88music]

That was a pretty cool surprise. The thumbnail was leading in that direction.

[@yuvalne]

Using your friends correctly

[@tessellatedagain]

this is gold!

[@janmelantu7490]

I thought Adam Neely and 12tone were switching for a week

[@drawntothefire]

Came here immediately reminded of Adam Neely by the thumbnail (he had a video with almost the same). Hearing his voice at the start was still a surprise!!

[@AnnaKhomichkoPianist]

Omg I thought first that was a different mic 😂

[@dwc1964]

Seeing him represented by a drawing of Big Mouth Billy Bass (because *B A S S* ) is an extra bit of amusing

[@chicken_punk_pie]

"The club is on fire" Sounds like one heck of a melee weapon

[@certainlynotthebestpianist5638]

Or a great card to play with :D

[@oneboredpunk6937]

“Now that was art music” that was an amazing inside joke and I adored it thank you

[@mihailmilev9909]

155th like

[@mihailmilev9909]

I noticed that too but what's the joke

[@DerekPower]

And of course, this fits with the song’s overall theme of illustrating faith, which can be present either in the best of times (C) or the worst (Am). After all, Hallelujah is sung over both and there’s that neat little “word painting” with the verse “Well it goes like this (C) / the fourth (F) / the fifth (G) / the minor fall (Am) / and the major lift (C) / the baffled king (F) / composing Halle- (G) / -lujah (Am)”.

[@almightyhydra]

Major lift is F, then next line is G, then E

[@DerekPower]

@@almightyhydra Stand corrected =]

[@rassault]

all the hallelujahs that end in c are not resolutions. its just in Am.

[@pmnt_]

There. Even Cohen says that the fourth is F and the fifth is G. C Major. Case Closed. /s

[@ryansanagustin6553]

7:17 “More I chords than I’d expect” As a Pokémon fan, Zubat is the most beautiful example u could’ve used there

[@themorrigan1312]

Agreed, honestly

[@yuvalne]

+

[@justinwebb7990]

10% focused on theory 90% focused on precisely pausing the video on 25% speed to see the cats, I would die for your cats they're adorable

[@wiiplayers19]

I completely forgot 25% existed. I did it normal speed

[@griffinhan-lalime4357]

Pro tip: if the video is paused, you can use the comma and period keys to go back or forth by one frame, respectively < >

[@class_ical1761]

I commented something similar under another video of yours, but this is basically how I've always seen the relationship between a major key and its relative minor (and by extension all of its other modes as well). I grew up making a lot of arrangements of pieces and eventually composing my own works but I didn't learn much technical theory until the last few years, so the harmonic framework I tend to use while composing nowadays is largely informed by these assumptions I made as a kid. It's very interesting to me that the idea of the double-tonic complex isn't the norm in most musical spaces because for me it always has been. Great video, keep up the good work!

[@Ultrasonix3]

Haven't been here in a while, start the video and think for a second that you've just had reallllly noticable voice change

[@AnnaKhomichkoPianist]

Oh i thought the same, what could that be? Maybe a different mic?

[@ldahui]

I know, right!? Maybe the real 12tone 2as abducted by aliens that wanted to study Earth's musicians

[@klydekadiddlehopper5349]

I think he’s just getting more used to recording. My speaking voice can go much lower and much higher than his depending on what I’ve been drinking, time of day, etc etc. I bet he’s settled on a more consistent routine that produces this speaking tone

[@shiningarmor2838]

You seem to have an Adam Neely in your throat.

[@shinydino]

Some people pay extra for that you know ;)

[@therealandrew185]

@@shinydino Lol yeah. Phrasing 😂

[@SlyHikari03]

Ayy, I see you everywhere.

[@RMRizalMusic]

All men have an Adam Neely in our throats. It's called an Adam's apple.

[@ambiention]

BASS

[@rmdodsonbills]

At 14:03, harmony as a location. I'm not sure why this thought got me all choked up, but it seems like a really great insight into "Sweet Home Alabama." This is a love song to a place. Not a "you light up my life" love song (like "Country Roads" is), or a friendly "I'll be there for you" love song, but a masculine "nobody better dis my baby" love song. Harmony as a location is just the right vibe for this song, I think.

[@BlemishesNow]

I have nothing to say asides Leonard Cohen is a legend!

[@justaman9564]

I like how you put the momentum into the general relativity equation to show something as 'more definitive'.

[@dangerkeith3000]

The lyrics imply that Leonard Cohen thought of the song as being in C Major, but author intent aside, this was a great analysis and I tend to agree with most of what you said... I mean, at least it makes sense with your reasons given.

[@JustMe-oc8ls]

And there was me thinking it was just a particularly charming passing modulation through the relative harmonic minor... but I learned a lot here and I'll buy that way of looking at it. Makes a lot of sense and changes the way I think about a number of other songs as well. Thank you.

[@chesterharris4452]

I see you went to the Adam Kneely class of making thumbnails.

[@Mysterytour7]

My first thought. I love a no nonsense thumbnail.

[@ianflemings4989]

Had the same thought. Answering the question of the title with the thumbnail is an excellent format that I wish more people did

[@magnusbreinholt350]

I spent more time than i would like to admit pausing at the right frame to see the cats

[@RedmarKerkhof]

Protip: use the < and > keys to shift a single frame.

[@karleeloya7854]

@@RedmarKerkhof yo that is a lifesaving tip. i will remember that....now if only it worked on mobile lol

[@jacefairis1289]

i think the only reason to say it's C and not Am (or both) is because of the lyrics - "the fourth, the fifth" falls on F and G, making C the one, lol in all seriousness, very cool video; I'm glad to see Everyday Tonality-esque stuff becoming more well-known.

[@Pablo360able]

The real secret chord was the friends we made along the way.

[@rachelivy9712]

I like to say it was a 6/9 chord and god was like "nice"

[@Pablo360able]

@@rachelivy9712 6/9 power chords are both incredibly nice and incredibly _nice_

[@arnoldwardenaar127]

My first reaction to your "The club is on fire" analogy was: "He didn't just do that....." My second reaction was laughing until it hurt....

[@rabonour]

I tend to agree with the commenters saying author intent puts this in C, but I think the complexity you describe is very much in the spirit of the song and I find this analysis fascinating. I don't necessarily hear the song in am, but I have always found there to be a lot more tension in this song than I would expect. The progression seems simple, but I have always struggled to sing the middle of the verse and I think your analysis helps to explain why.

[@stevieb0768]

That art music comment was maybe the funniest thing I've ever heard on this channel. Thank you!

[@ShimmeringSpectrum]

I appreciate that we have one frame in the video, at 7:50, showing off your cats.

[@valerielastname9508]

friendly reminder to all that you can use the period and comma keys to go frame by frame cats are cute

[@segmentsAndCurves]

@@valerielastname9508 Okay. It's not like 5 minutes trying to pause the video would be useless. cats are indeed cute.

[@joncheskin]

Just played a violin-cello-piano version of this song, so was really interested in your video. I think there is definitely something to your analysis, at the very least there are substantial gestures to relative minor throughout. I think the reason listeners tend not to perceive a dual-tonic complex is that our music history tends to favor strict demarcation into either major or minor. Minor key classical sonata form pieces, for example, always emphasize a duality--the esposition modulates into the relative major and composers need the duality to set up the tension in the structure. Beethoven's 5th works this way--first you are in c minor, then you are in e-flat major without really any ambiguity.

[@mikaoleander]

I've been fascinated by double tonics for some time and I feel like it really elevated my songwriting. I'm currently planning to try and write a song that tonicises both D locrian and Ab lydian. not sure how well that one will work tho

[@garfd2]

The way I like to look at the overlap you mentioned, Am and C span the same sector of the circle of 5ths - the C and E being at opposite ends, and all the notes in between forming that pentatinic scale. The image of them both residing in that 12-4 slice translates their harmonic interchangeability well.

[@AtomizedSound]

Ah music theory and the subtleties that can arise when analyzing certain songs. Gotta love it and theorizing

[@chicken_punk_pie]

"Hey, welcome to 12-tone" Me: Hello? Adam?

[@l.paigebowser7769]

After you sing Psalm 67 with a good choir, you don't know what a key is anymore. But you learn to hold your part and it's GORGEOUS when everyone is brave!

[@JamesHoskin]

I'm no music theorist. Other than a few years learning the violin as a kid I'm largely self-taught. But, I have been playing and composing for 40 years and I've always seen this in a simpler way. For me, the 'Key' is the notes used in that piece (or section, if there's a key change). So, if it's all white notes, you're in the key of C. One sharp, you're in G. It's usually easy to tell what key you're in - it's written down as the key signature! What's being discussed here can be described in terms of ''Modes'. The 'root' note determines the mode. So in the key of C: - C as the root is Ionian - A as the root is Aeolian - G as the root is Mixolydian - D as the root is Dorian Yes, there are other modes but 99% of all music, especially modern rock and pop, uses just these 4 modes. (Composers who employ the other modes are just showing off. You know I'm right!) Now, the composer uses melody and harmony to establish the mode (and accompanying root note) for the listener. The further you get from Ionian, the harder it is to establish and maintain your chosen root (if that's your intention). What's different about Ionian (C as root) and Aeolian (A as root)? Well, they're the natural major and minor in the key of C. That means both feel equally right as the root note. One feels sad, the other happy. They come as a pair and work as a team (tag wresting?) They're also mirror images: - C major has a major IV and V, a minor, II, III and VI - A minor has a minor IV and V, major III, VI and VII That doesn't look like a mirror image, but look at this way: - C major has a major +IV and +V, a minor, +II, +III and +VI (counting up) - A minor has a minor +IV and +V, a major, +II, +III and +VI (counting down) {Interestingly, if you imagine a note 1/4 tone between B flat and B, that's where the mirror is. You could extend the above and consider G Mixolydian/D Dorian and F Lydian/E Phrygian as pairs, but I find it less obvious as a listener} I'm sure this is nothing new and is covered at length in the vast tomes of music theory. It may even be subtly wrong somehow. Let me know!!

[@althealligator1467]

It's in both the key of the I chord and vi chord... Like any song ever that uses these 2 chords. Actually without even using both of them, you would still be in the key of the one you didn't use, because that's how relative minors and majors work: they both feel resolved at all times. In your Just a Girl video, you're surprised that the song ends on a Bm chord even though the song is in D major. It's just as tonic of a chord as D, so it'll feel just as resolved.

[@niklasunbubble]

yeah 12tones is really overthinking this one. there has been a strict division between major and minor for centuries whereas in pop music both are not really seperate things when it comes to something so trivial. C-Major IS A-Minor as they use the same tones (the g# is an exception but it comes in a transitional part, not conluding part)

[@althealligator1467]

@@niklasunbubble More importantly, the interval interactions which create the sense of tonality are the same, because the notes are the dame. G# isn't really an exception, it's the equivalent of Ab. It's all symmetrical around the axis of the second degree of the major scale.

[@xgum]

jeff buckley has a lot of fun with the multiple tonal centers with his very tim-buckley approach to the final chorus

[@Rome.Monroe]

Chorus is in C major. Verses are in A minor. They're relative anyway.

[@tonygairomusic911]

Man, I love this channel. I love this tune. Have for many, many years now. Now I love it even more. Brilliant analysis. As always.

[@georgebrown1807]

This reminds me of the sea chantey "Donkey Riding". There are versions of the song in major and in minor. Normally if you want to turn a major-key song into a minor-key song, you'd change the melody to flatten the three, six, and seven, and redo all the chords to make it fit. But the minor-key version of "Donkey Riding" preserves almost all of the chords and melody of the major-key version, just changing the refrain "riding on a donkey" to end a minor third lower. And in some performances people will switch between the two versions, like doing the major version for the verses and the minor version for the chorus.

[@AbqDez]

Have you ever heard the imperial march in major...

[@brianbjur4796]

Excellently put: chord loops are a destination, key centers contribute to a journey

[@Nae_Ayy]

The ol "Neely Answer-the-question-from-the-title-in-the-thumbnail" clickbait trick

[@bennythebear0711]

Feel like you could make a case for the a minor but the melody is setup still needing to be resolved. For me the melody is part of the chord /music

[@emmbeesea]

TL:DR; Hallelujah is a musical embodiment of CatDog.

[@themorrigan1312]

This is an absolutely cursed take and I love it

[@AbqDez]

YOU MEAN PUPPYCAT. ... I LOVE PUPPYCAT .... [ side note: i realize you may not actually know what puppycat... look up. " Bee & Puppycat " cause. DO IT ... Do It Now !! Lol lol hahaha ] Anyway... i agree

[@35milesoflead]

@@AbqDez no, they definitely meant CatDog. You really should Google CatDog.

[@luckasmetal]

@@AbqDez kzbin.info/www/bejne/a2Wkl5eumZumi7M

[@KnowlesRyan]

That picture of cats is so hard to catch. I think I've spent more time trying to pause on the picture than watching the rest of the video. The rest of the video is great, by the way.

[@paigecunningham]

The cats are at 7:50. Pause, then move forward frame by frame by clicking the period key 'til you see them. (You can also go backward by hitting the comma.)

[@azaelsanchezportillo1616]

That "something" in your throat made you sound eerily similar to a certain Adam Neely. Made me smile. :)

[@Mrbeat-88]

Musicians and music theory never cease to amaze me. Great composition and great analysis sir, thank you for showing the way

[@benoittremblay9073]

This thumbnail is probably the first example of anti-clickbait I've witnessed. Fascinating

[@squirelostwood]

I was just checking out your channel and I thought it was really cool that you included the answer in the thumbnail.

[@baertheblader9402]

But… the lyrics of the song confirm it is in Cmaj. It literally tells you the chord progression in the middle of the song. The C chord is where the progression starts and the lyrics say “it goes like this”. Then the F is identified as the 4th and the G the 5th. Then the Am chord is referred to as the “minor fall”. So at least in the understanding of Cohen himself it seems the key (at least for the verse) is C major. Then it seems to shift to A minor for the chorus and then shifts back. Thoughts?

[@azraphon]

This is the first time I've noticed that metal thumbnail!

[@croatoansounds]

You can see it growing over the course of the last six or seven months hehe. It’s on the other hand too, you can see the shadow in the bottom right.

[@kevinyouyube]

Both C major and A minor scales contain the same notes, even though they are "different scales". This song is a good example of what tonality theory can d9.

[@balloonman8796]

Well for the most part that's true except for the fact that E Minor/G Major does not contain F, but F# while C contains F and not F#. Seeing as how F is one of the most important chords in C Major there are some important distinctions. Maybe you meant A Minor though, which if you did I apologize for being long-winded and all that

[@guidemeChrist]

If you consider the major 6th diminished scale it's all in just C major

[@matthewkaemmerer7569]

I found this video challenging, not because the "double tonic complex" explanation is ungraspable -- I think Corey does a great job of explaining the theory -- it's just... ...I never really experience A as the tonic. During the opening (where the harmony shuttles between C major and A minor), I can hear either as the tonic, but for the rest of the song C sounds much more tonic-y to me. Maybe I'll have a better luck hearing it with some of the other songs mentioned as using a double-tonic complex. Seems like a useful theory tool. But as far as Hallelujah goes, I'm completely satisfied with saying "yep, it's in C. It has a few deceptive cadences and secondary dominants, but it's in C."

[@griffinhan-lalime4357]

I feel the same way. There's one strong resolution to an Am chord, but it's clearly not the end of the song. A minor doesn't get the final word. The whole cycle of chords starts on C major and ends on C major. The key of A minor feels like a temporary digression that serves the purpose of creating tension that points back to C. It's like, the bigger-picture version of a chord change - the song's tonic feels like it changes temporarily for the purpose of a stronger resolution when it changes back. Which is also cool concept, but it's not the same as being in two keys at the same time. edit: but idk, maybe that's what the idea of the double-tonic complex is getting at. Like, if the song feels like it briefly changes keys but we can still recall the original key strongly enough to feel another level of resolution when it switches back, then maybe there is a point in time where the song is in two keys simultaneously. But 12tone presents it as if the song is _always_ in two keys, or like the two keys are equally applicable, which absolutely doesn't line up with my experience. C major is the overall key, and A minor is a key that also makes an appearance. If I were to give it a name, I'd say the tonics are "layered" - C major is the first/base 'layer', and then A minor is 'layered' on top of it, such that the C major 'layer' is still clearly there but A minor is more prominent. Later, A minor is removed and we're back to C major.

[@cheegrysomit]

wonderful cat pic, thank you!

[@jacobbass6437]

I’ve actually seen people do this kind of analysis of Chopin’s Prelude in E Minor.

[@crobinso2010]

Glad you did this topic cuz it's always puzzled me.

[@Marklar3]

How is Am not just a temporary key area? I don't see how polytonality applies to this song.

[@Gnurklesquimp]

First word he spoke I was like ''Man you sounded just like-'', second word I realized.

[@berniebrothers7407]

The lyric implies it is in both keys. There's a blaze of light in every word It doesn't matter which you heard The holy (C major) or the broken (A minor) Hallelujah

[@OurgasmComrade]

That's quite a stretch lol

[@christopherbernard8974]

Right around 2:50 you mention that we tend to “hear things in major until we decide not to” - has this been covered on the channel before? If not, I’d love for you to elaborate. Your videos are getting better and better! Congrats on continuing the excellent work.

[@tiddlypom2097]

Yes he has mentioned this before I think it's in the Axis chord loops video

[@BruceNunnally]

I enjoy your storytelling as both a journey & lesson in music theory

[@Drenius]

I see what you did there with "art music". I liked it

[@arijin]

Your pets analogy is pretty much identical to how I explain fraction addition to my math students. I use fruit though: “if you buy 3 apples and 4 oranges and someone asks you what you bought, you could spell it all out or just says you got 7 pieces of fruit, and that’s basically what you have to do with denominators…” Something like that. Anyway, my point is - you were making total sense, and didn’t take it too far at all.

[@Arakiel9]

I took some music classes my freshman year of college when I was in the wrong major... okay, I took all music classes my freshman year of college. Like I said, wrong major. Not for you... not for other people... but for me, it was the wrong major. I wanted to be a teacher and music was what I did most of the time, so it seemed natural to go into music education. Well, my university wanted me to be a performer, and they didn't really care about the "education" part of my "Music Education" major. Anywho, that has nothing to do with my comment. Well, maybe a little. I used to know a bit about music theory, having taken a year of it... but I'm old, and I've forgotten nearly everything I knew. Suddenly, the internet happened (remember, I said I'm old), and then KZbin happened, and now there are people who talk about music in ways that I find delightful. Hey, just because I didn't want to be a performer doesn't mean that I haven't been fascinated and enthralled by music my whole life... I just don't need to be the one making the music up there on stage. What was my point? Oh yeah, so people like you have been allowing me to relearn, and even exceed my previous level of music knowledge, and I am enjoying the hell out of that. I'm clearly no expert, nor will I ever be (fine with me), but I really, really appreciate you (and others, but this is a comment on your video, so let's focus on you right now). Thank you for all you do with these videos. Some of it I get. Some of it I can sorta follow. Other parts are over my head. Fine with me. Keep going, I'll catch up... or I won't... but either way I'm entertained. The actual point, why I really started writing this, is the "plagal cascade". I love that phrase. I love that concept. It even has applications about mathematical relationships that go beyond music (not in a meaningful, scholarly way... at least not that I know of... but in a "oh look, it's like that thing" kinda way, that allows you to make imperfect analogies that entertain yourself, but everyone just looks at you like you're being weird. You know what I mean, right? Right?). Anyway, I love that concept, plagal cascade... I love your work, breaking songs apart and diving into the nuts and bolts... I love your humor, your doodles, all of it is very entertaining. I hope you keep doing what you're doing, because it's a joy to experience. Again, thank you very much.

[@controlequebrado4455]

OMG SOMEONE FINALLY WROTE THE FULL ENERGY MASS EQUATION FROM EINSTEIN I'M SO THRILLED.

[@stephensmith6257]

It's crazy how I just can't hear what you're hearing, contextually. I just hear that chorus/pre-chorus as a building tension before eventually resolving to the tonic, but I do have a half-baked ideas as to why maybe? I studied theory in college for the first time, but practiced trombone in the school band and guitar (folk and indie-folk mainly) for years before that on my own. I feel like that experienced altered how I hear "tonics", because I grasped just enough theory to read notes and key signatures (we really didn't teach ANY theory in band practice, just recitation of sheet music really), but I also had a lot of exposure to contemporary folk/pop/rock music that would align moreso with your axiom chord progression ideas. This leads me to hearing a lot of mixolydian & dorian 4 chord changes (Dm-Am-C-G, or F-C-Am-G) as not beginning with the tonic, but rather as an extended built of tension before resolving to the "real" tonic (Am in the first example, C in the second). Like, when I perform, I notice my body lifting upwards at the beginning of the changes before settling "home" at C, as if the song is beginning on a "pull" rather than a "rest"(or maybe more accurately, as a HEAVE chord, like a chord being pulled, and a HO chord, where we rest/re-gain our grip). F C Am G really sounds to me like. I have no issue hearing three chords as a pull chord, building up even more action potential before landing on the home chord. Or maybe I'm just hearing the initial chord not really as the first chord, but as a full bar anacrusis before the "real" changes start. I would be curious to see if in a lot of acoustic indie folk if the lyrics/melody might reinforce that feeling of the initial chord being an anacrusis to the more grounded, delayed "tonic" I am hearing.

[@amoooooose]

My brain: ooh interesting facts about a song. Me: THUMBNAIL

[@mrseq5011]

"What Hallelujah does is a little bit more complicated than that." *i've heard that before*

[@lod4246]

imagine trying to draw your visuals in realtime while catching up to your usual video voice

[@meadorsmusic17]

That intro gave me whiplash. 12tone with something in his throat sounds just like Adam Neely, wacky.

[@colejohnson66]

I think it was actually Adam Neely. Or was this sarcasm?

[@meadorsmusic17]

@@colejohnson66 Lmao I know, I thought it was Adam Neely too! Isn't it crazy how it totally was not Adam and was absolutely, definitely 12tone. (Lmao yeah it was sarcasm).

[@Alfalfa_Male]

Isn't this what happens in the middle of the verse of Billy Joel's New York State of Mind? Shifts the tonic from C to F.

[@falwyn]

Drawing the duck/rabbit for "soft ambiguity" -- chef's kiss!

[@MrCelaneous]

I mean, this is all very cool, but he literally _says_ in the song that "it (C) goes like this: / the (F) fourth, the (G) fifth / the (Am) minor fall, the (F) major lift", so I'm going with C.

[@tweetert.9978]

Love the "finding more than we expected" line while drawing a Zubat. Great reference! #MtMoon

[@flatfingertuning727]

I think a more interesting example of an ambiguous key is a song you covered earlier: the chorus to Hotel California. All but the last two bars of the melody, and the first two chords of each four-chord phrase, would work equally well in B minor or G major. If one were to replace the second phrase of the melody with a repeat of the first, and change the last two chords of the each phrase to (A7 D), the chorus would cleanly end on D major rather than B minor, but without any clear point where it had switched key. Another piece which has an interesting dual tonality is James Horner's Casper's Lullaby from the motion picture soundtrack, which at least to my ear is simultaneously in A dorian and D mixolydian. Normally, relative major and minor tonalities would be a third apart, but the primary modes here are a fourth apart, but both have one sharp.

[@colemerkosky1517]

I've been playing guitar, mostly by ear, for 14 years now and this has always been how I think about keys. In my mind, C feels the same as Am; Am is the relative minor of C, and they both use F and G. It feels weird to make a distinction between the two (for me at least)

[@stuartcoyle1626]

Any music theory video that includes equations from relativity gets my upvote!

[@ssolomon999]

Nice analysis. Now that you point it out, I suspect that this is the whole point of the song - that Cohen was thinking since C and A minor use the same notes, I wonder if I can write a song that is in both keys at the same time? That certainly seems consistent with his lyrics regarding minor fall, major lift, and a "baffled king composing."

[@gretawaller8385]

Omg “that was art music.” I’ve watched too many music theory videos. Now time to go jam out to some Radiohead, Sufjan, Beatles, and Jacob Collier :)

[@Eclipsed_Archon]

typing this before I even watch the video: I clicked on this because I appreciate your thumbnail. Already liked the video

[@deegegaming7911]

Got recommended in 1st Dec lol. Merry Christmas

[@andrewjustice210]

Having a good time/arson “probably not both”… that “probably” is doing a LOT of work lol

[@AlexandarHullRichter]

Plot twist: on a guitar, C major and A minor are fingered almost identically. You have an A instead of a C as the base note, and another A instead of a G on the 4th string. In a handful of songs, they can almost be played interchangeably too, depending on the key and what part of the song it's used in.

[@philipkudrna5643]

It‘s overwhelming that somebody can talk almost 15 min about the music theory behind Hallelujah. Still, it‘s a great song! And maybe the harmonization PTX did with it would be worth a video of its own. Personally, I am not fully convinced. The song starts and end it C and I believe the E is a secondary dominant chord. But these are my thoughts. Unfortunately, we can no longer ask Leonard Cohen what he was thinking, when he composed it!

[@jeangodecoster]

Haha, for the first few seconds there I was like "wtf... 12tone IS Adam Neely?"

[@nugboy420]

Yeah C and Am r very similar but also VERY different. Love it though cuz I like the explanations as to how they mesh from a purely one of the other aspects

[@alexanderlori7651]

Took me way too long to pause on the cats but so worth it🥺

[@lemonade.valley]

It's obviously in C because when he sang "It goes like this, the 4th, the 5th" the chords were F and then G

[@AngelicDirt]

7:49 or so for the cats. Yes, I did freeze frame a video for one frame of a picture of (VERY cute) cats. Don't judge me.

[@renedemers8218]

I would say that the very Jewish perspective of faith Cohen baked into the Song inherently includes ambiguity in the concept of faith - once you add in lyrical and religious context, the idea that this is actually a double tonic really meshes in to the entire exploration of faith in a god one can betray, be condemned by, and still love and lease. Honestly all the ambiguity and gesturing to potential confusion that still resolves into a solid resolution - a solid faith - is EXACTLY what this song is about to many Jewish listeners.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

"We are music theorists, we can do whatever we want, as long as we can justify it" Or to quote Jacob Collier: "There are no wrong notes, you just lack confidence"

[@TheTalonsPryde]

I love your analysis

[@gillianomotoso328]

Still watching, but I think you can have modes other than natural major and minor as double-tonic. “Stache” by Zedd and Lady Gaga (2012) has what I think of as a double-tonic complex. It’s interpretable as G minor and F mixolydian. Can’t think of other examples of that exact type of double-tonic currently, but I’m sure they’re out there. There are also many songs that have ii and I as tonics to one another, as opposed to vi and V: “Simple Kind of Life” by No Doubt (2000) does this (Dm and C), “Suit and Tie” by Justin Timberlake (2011? - Em and D), “34+35” by Ariana Grande (2020 - Gm and F). But the reharmonized major trick (major melody over chords in an ambiguous flux of relative major and minor) is very, very common too. There’s another more tonally complex song by Goldfrapp called “Clay” (2013) that has what feels at certain points like a triple tonic of B lydian, F# major-minor, and D# minor! Worth a listen, the song is constantly in flux. I’d likely consider its key as B major due to how the dissonances in it resolve, but the others work as contenders at various points, sometimes more than B major does. Also, I think “Sweet Home Alabama” is in D mixolydian, but “All Summer Long” is in G major :) Listen to the melody! But I mean this spectrally - they’re both in enharmonic mixtures of the two, but each has a stronger tendency than the other to the opposite mode.

[@unboundboundarie211]

At around 4:30 you go on about deceptive cadences saying that the secondary dominant makes it not a deceptive cadence, however historically (common practice period) it wasn’t rare for an applied chord to bridge V and vi in a deceptive cadence. Also this isn’t even a cadence at all, it’s a deceptive progression, which is an important distinction.

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

Ya know, most of the time when people argue about what key a song is in, _the ambiguity is the point_ - so getting upset that someone disagrees with your interpretation is you disagreeing with the song. Is it in C Major or A minor? Yes. It's in either C Major or A Minor. That's the point. It's supposed to be ambiguous. Love is not a victory march, it's a cold and broken _hallelujah._

[@dkerwood1]

Minor is interesting in that its 5 major chord and its b7 chord both pull back to the tonic. However, the 5 major pull is stronger with its leading tone pulling to the root of the tonic. The b7 - 1 resolution feels less satisfying because it's a parallel resolution in the half step (third in both chords).

[@noahdmnc]

I wish I can see what you mean but I just can't hear Am as a resolution. To me, it feels like a point of high tension intensified only by the deceptive cadence and the relative minor's dominant chords; the two chords work together to make the relative minor more unstable. This tension is only resolved only on the last syllable of the last hallelujah.

[@Testgeraeusch]

7:21 "...but probably not both" Don't tell me how to enjoy me weekend!

[@ceegers]

This is quirky, I like the video and totally agree with the idea of songs being in more than one key, including the other examples you talked about... but personally, Am just doesn't feel resolved in Hallelujah, so to me it doesn't feel like it's in 2 keys like those other examples do.

[@AbqDez]

Ok. So i was just thinking.... this is the Most Meta Song Ever... please tell me your opinions, and if anyone has better words than i used... since this is just off the top of my head and unedited. All input is appriciated. C I've heard there was a Am secret chord ___. Spoiler C+ Am is the Secret cord___ C That David played, and it Am pleased the Lord ____ it sounds nice _____ F G But you don't really care for is C G music, do you? ____ love music / learn music _____ C It goes like this, The fourth, | F G | the fifth, __ Cmajor=.. 4th=F & 5th=G____ Am F The minor fall, the major lift, ___ Aminor falls ____ _____ CMajor lifts ____ G E/G# The baffled king composing __ trying to make this work ___ Am Hallelujah. _____ a secret cord ______ F Am Hallelujah, Hallelujah ___ & it has a key ____ F C G C G Hallelujah, Hallelujah C Your faith was strong but you Am needed proof, __ your unsure if its real ___ C Am You saw her bathing on the roof. _____ from the top ____ F G Her beauty and the moonlight C G overthrew you ___ music is awesome C | She tied you to a kitchen F G | chair, ___tied to ruling conventione___ Am She broke your throne, she cut ____ break the rules ____ F your hair, ____ cut of the extras G E/G# And from your lips she drew ____.and you will sing ____^ Am the Hallelujah. ____ a secret cord ______ F Am Hallelujah, Hallelujah ___ & it has a key ____ F C G C G Hallelujah, Hallelujah C Am Maybe I have been here before, _____ this is repetition ______ C I know this room, I've ____ you know these cords_____ Am walked this floor, ____ the same notes ______ F G I used to live alone before I _____ one tonic at a time ___ C G knew you ____ then i found it_____ C I've seen your flag on | F G | the marble arch. __ this possiblity i found _____ Am F Love is not a victory march, __not easy to compose____ G E/G# It's a cold and it's a broken ____ breakdown & analysis ____ Am Hallelujah ___ a secret cord ______ F Am Hallelujah, Hallelujah ___ & it has a key ____ F C G C G Hallelujah, Hallelujah ___ C Am There was a time you let me know _____. The music taught me ____ C Am What's real and going on below, ___ what seems & what it is ___ F G But now you never show it to C G me, do you? _____ its not obvious _____ C | F And remember when I moved in G | you? ____i was part of music __ Am F The holy dove was moving too, ____ and it was me_____ G E/G# And every breath we drew was _____ it was easy ___ Am Hallelujah. _____ a secret cord ______ F Am Hallelujah, Hallelujah ___ & it has a key ____ F Am G C G Hallelujah, Hallelujah C Am Maybe there's a god above ____ music composer intention ____ C Am But all I ever learned from love _____ what we are taught ____ F G Was how to shoot at someone who ___ aim to understand composition __ C G outdrew you, ___ it will elude you ___ C | F And it's not a cry you can hear ___ you dont hear the effort__ G | at night, ____ not in a dream____ Am It's not somebody who's ____ not composed by____ F seen the light ___ inspiration ____ G E/G# It's cold and it's a broken ____ analysis and deconstruction ____ Am Hallelujah. _____a secret cord ______ F Am Hallelujah, Hallelujah ___ & it has a key ____ F Am G Hallelujah, Hallelujah ______ the Key ______ F Am Hallelujah Hallelujah ____ polyphonics ___ F C G C G Hallelujah Hallelujah __C, + Am, resolves in G___

[@TheTrueAltoClef]

I personally don't agree with the idea that it's both in C and Am (which is totaly okay to have differing views) But to clarify my view. The Am doesn't sound like home to me, mainly because of the songs structure. The E7-Am is right before the end of the prechorus, so despite it having tonic function, it's placement doesn't make it sound resolved. It reminds me of the idea that some theorists have which is that the IIIm isn't really a tonic chord. While I don't really agree with that theory, the parallel lies in the fact that it argues the IIIm is never used as "home". Which chord feels like home is what determines the key a piece is in, and to me the Am after the E7 doesn't feel like home, it's at a point of too much tension at the end of a chorus, and honestly it feels like a chord with quite a bit of tension which resolves to the F in the chorus To me because of the structure really no Am sounds like a "home" chord. Even in the 1st section C-Am-C-Am, they are tonic chords, but only the C feels like home. If you were to play Am-C-Am-C the Am would feel like the home chord. As another example, take the Canon in D progression: D-Am-Bm-F#m-G-D-G-A The D which comes right after (and before) the G, doesn't feel like a home chord, because of its placement. So to conclude, basically I'm making the difference between a tonic chord and a home chord. (Pretty much) every home chord is a tonic, but not every tonic is a home chord, and the placement of a chord decides whether it feels like home

[@juicebox86]

LOL. The pets/cats analogy is great!

[@AnnaKhomichkoPianist]

Agree 🤣

[@the_honkler778]

i like to think that this problem of what key the song is in is why the King was baffled while he was composing Hallelujah