What makes a song... a SONG??? (ft.

Feat. ‪@AdamNeely‬
Focal Bathys Headphones: bit.ly/3fyH0cr
My course, Complete Rock and Metal Songwriting: howsongsaremade.com/p/complet...
Does a song have to have singing? Does a song need lyrics? Does having a topline make it a song? Is a symphony a song? I'm gonna try to answer all these questions today - what makes a song a SONG?
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Edited by Sierra Ehlert

[@treyxaviermusic]

Have you been writing songs, or something else? Check out the Focal Bathys Headphones I'm using in this video here: bit.ly/3fyH0cr

[@Burnt_Gerbil]

Nah, I just make noise. I turn on my pedals and see where it goes. Just being real. 🤷‍♂️

[@AFRoSHEENT3ARCMICHAEL69]

Look at like a hierarchy. The melody is the Elite. The Base are the poor. The melody is nothing without it's base. But the melody is what people want to hear but try to remove it's base and it usually can't stand on its own. Not for the entire song at least.

[@michaelbodalski]

I love that you cited Joe Satriani. Surfing with the Alien was a critical piece in my own understanding of what makes music into a song. I regularly listened to the late 80's Shrapnel Records releases, but never engaged with them like I would albums with vocalists, and I figured that missing something was something you needed a singer for, Surfing completely changed that.

[@treyxaviermusic]

Yeah he put instrumental guitar music on the map by making it listenable haha

[@jaded9234]

He also influenced a WIDE variety of non-instrumental music from his guitar teaching alone. Between him, and his students, along with (Mother of Randy) Dolores Rhoads's music school, I'm not sure two other groups had as much of an active role in shaping a music scene as those two in 80s Rock/Metal. From Ozzy Osbourne to Metallica, Possessed to Primus, Testament to well... Jazz. The mark was huge from Dokken to Death Metal.

[@jaded9234]

@@treyxaviermusic Tbf, I can think guys like Al Dimeola, John Mclaughlin, and Paco Delucia came out with some catchy things in the 70s.

[@JuiceboxDesmond]

Rapping and growly/screamy vocals ARE still pitched. They have pitch just like speaking has pitch, and pitch IS important in their delivery. The difference is that these types of vocals are rhythmic as opposed to melodic. Pitch is important in rhythm, its why you gotta tune the drums. Rapping and/or screaming can essentially be though of as a vocal drum solo as a topline.

[@treyxaviermusic]

This is an excellent point that I wish I'd considered hahaha - in a very concrete sense, they ARE melodic, so much of inflection is pitch-based even if it's kind of microtonal or continuously variable

[@Sergio-nb4hj]

100% you've put into words something I've felt for a while

[@josephharvey1762]

In metal, rhythm can also take the place of harmony. I think about the intro to Periphery’s Absolomb - it’s one pitch, but is has a rhythmic progression instead of a harmonic one.

[@BleuRoseDesigns]

This is a really interesting thought, about what defines a song! 🤔

[@treyxaviermusic]

Glad you thought so!

[@Tomileemusic217]

*riff salads not songs ✅* Thanks for more great content Trey ! 🤘🏻 And all hail Kenneth 🤣

[@Tekkerue]

But what if you write a song called Riff Salad? 🤔

[@PERPowns]

Love the philosophical nature of this video. Great insight.

[@gabrielfortuna9243]

Commenting so KZbin knows I liked this video. Loved the provocative questions and examples! I really hope more people find this, I’ll be sharing this with my students! Thanks for the video

[@h.markhorton8188]

A song starts somewhere. Goes somewhere. Ups and downs ( hello Paul Revere). Winds up somewhere. Leaves the listener with feelings, they may not even be aware of.

[@hugh300]

This was a really significant insight! Brilliant!

[@AFRoSHEENT3ARCMICHAEL69]

I think it's the progression used and how it's used. Because it's the bases of the song. A melody usually never stands on it's own and is always supported by the base. Or Bass, it's the foundation and or the fundamental. This is also why people love bass heavy music. I would even consider metal bass heavy because most of them drop tune and put 52-64 gage strings as their low note on their guitars.

[@jacktripperthemusical]

There's a famous modern instrumental song - Metallica's "Orion" - that seems to be an exception to the rule here. It doesn't have a topline, yet it is very popular and fans do not listen to it as if it were just background music. After thinking about it some, I realized that me and friends who enjoy this song - and therefore i assume many others - hum the guitar riffs, so it seems there is a case to be made here that well-defined riffs CAN serve as a topline. Thoughts? Link to the song: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWnUo6qFg5ZgsKc

[@josephharvey1762]

Yeah, it seems that many riffs incorporate melody and don’t need a top line.

[@john_mclucas]

damn this is great, i love that youre taking the time to dissect a lot of nuance that gets lost in shorter form content. you fab

[@switchbackmusic2938]

Your editor is getting 🔥🔥🔥 loving it

[@fernandoramoa7079]

In 30 years of music I never asked myself what a song is so here it is A song is any form of sound, limited in time, which arouses any form of emotion

[@Just-Michael]

The simplest idea that I could come up with when I saw the title for the video, was that a song is a story told through music. And you can tell your story in many different ways. It doesn't have to follow a structure, it doesn't need vocals, it doesn't even need proper instruments, as shown in the intro of this video. If a piece of music can effectively get across a point, then it's a song. A bunch of random riffs don't really make a song because they're not making a point. There's no build up and climax and resolution to their story. If their point is to feel stuck in place, like a treadmill, then perhaps an argument could be made for that. 😂

[@princessl.d.g.]

Very well explained! 🙂

[@jarrodhroberson]

Cocteau Twins we’re the OG study music for me in art school. No words definitely songs.

[@micahperrego3334]

You are a gift to the world of diy musicians

[@bigkidband5731]

Good stuff, Trey! 👍

[@GitKlar]

Andrew Huang has entered the chat in the intro. Heck yeah, Adam is the man. He's even in an instrumental band (Sungazer), so a good resource for instrumental song-writing hints & tips, too. 3:18 when I took music in high-school, Beethoven and most classical composers' symphonies in general weren't considered as songs. Symphonies (especially from the classical era) had a distinct structure (sonata-form), that is very different from e.g. a pop-song. 3:27 effing aced that passage! I'm impressed, gotta say. 9:23 8-bit music will happily prove you wrong. Soundtracks are very flexible in the way they get used, and depending on that they can be more or less of a song. A lot of composers also brought up the issue with the lack of melody, and music getting thrown in the background too much. Great insight though, and cool to discuss something seemingly obvious in more detail.

[@treyxaviermusic]

3:27 thanks, I sang it with a choir/symphony in college, that was a HELL of an experience. 9:23 I was only referencing some game scores, the Zelda theme is 100% a song

[@Arkansya]

historically and culturally songs were made to be sang, remembered and resang, collectively : religious songs, work songs, among which early blues or mariner songs, soldier songs... to be a proper song you have to draw something from this cultural grounding somehow, and the topline melody, the memorable melody is a way to do it. best example is how 7 nation army or we will rock you became stadium hymns

[@SwnkyTiger]

A song is a song, if it is intended to be a song. Anything else is a qualifier, some attempted control over subjectivity and at worst gate-keeping. In this way I don't see it any different than other forms of art. To me, a song is a performance/arrangement with an intent, that uses rhythm and (or) pitch to hopefully achieve an intention. This is regardless to what the intention itself is, the instrumentation used (or not used) or the perceived 'quality' of the piece. I don't necessarily think trying to define something so subjective is a productive venture. Although I really enjoy the opposite, I always enjoy being exposed to songs or sounds that broaden my understanding of "what is music". While this is an interesting topic, I'm not sure the discourse will be as interesting as simply thinking about it and appreciating music in its MANY various forms. However I would enjoy a video demonstrating examples that have influenced your understanding.

[@psyche1988]

Anything can be art, but that doesn't make it good art !

[@herja.kaosis]

Very good video! Great timing I was having a discussion the other night with someone about is a composer the same as a songwriter? I think this helped lend some insight into that discussion. After a while it does start to become a semantics debate. It came about with the question "name a great American composer" and like a text book answer would be like George Gershwin. But you could also say someone like Billy Joel is a great American composer. While he wrote "songs" they were still excellent "compositions" of music.

[@fernandoramoa7079]

About Bathys Headphones: how's the bluetooth latency? Is there a way to cleanup the cushions off sweat?

[@princessl.d.g.]

Cool intro!! 😎

[@worksofein6449]

I think you've nailed it with the story telling aspect. There is a lovely passage in one of the "science of the discworld" books by Terry Pratchett where he talks about humans just being apes that tell stories about the world and that's what separates us from animals. Also, you should check out the video of researchers talking in the voice of neanderthals. They used fossils to recreate the voice box and vocal cords, then worked out how they may have sounded. If it's correct, they had pretty unique voices that are nothing like how you imagine a neanderthal would sound.

[@treyxaviermusic]

Terry Pratchett is a genius

[@worksofein6449]

@@treyxaviermusic Tru fax

[@cynicald380]

Riffs are good. Yay riffs

[@seanfromaustin]

Now I want to listen to Napalm Death...

[@MichaelBLive]

FYI for Adam, that cam swing prevents me from looking at you speak the words.

[@DEADLINETV]

It's an interesting topic, for sure! And although I kinda feel a definition of a song, there really isn't one. I still wonder though, like Metallica (and many, many other bands) write their riffs first and add vocal lines after. So is the the song without vocals riffsalad? And, to stay with this band, a track like Orion, is that a song?

[@gnuwaves743]

Above all, commit to one central idea/motiff. Everything else should support it. Even when that part isn't playing, you should still hear it.

[@denniskielton2447]

Expanding on the melody part Adam mentioned, most instrumental songs (at least the good ones that are successful) HAVE melody. Specifically, they always have a melody that replaces the top line of the song, ie the vocals. Repetition validates any random sou8nd into music after about the 3rd time through, seen scientists prove this many times. There IS an actual legal definition of a song, which Adam Neely mentions in his video on the history of musical copyrights. Also pretty interesting. But the legal definition states a couple things that plenty of modern songs don't include, especially weird experimental stuff. I think like You kinda say Trey, it's more about the story, or in my opinion the focal point. A song IS the thing, it's not the background. It's what separates instrumentals from background music, it's either background or it's the main point. And songs have that precedence. And typically, it's the top line that portrays that. It's hard to imagine an exception to having a good top line.

[@cynicald380]

But emotional connection, hooks, something to enjoy

[@Banditman]

One of the things about a song that's so hard to explain is that you just kinda know one when you hear one. Melody is the key. When you start to get out around the fringes with rap and metal, it becomes less clear. Rap can still deliver a message, so it gets a pass, but needs to accept that it's getting by on an exception. Likewise with metal that uses cookie monster vocals. For non-vocal songs, the melody is the only thing. Most importantly, the songs that last and have wide impact inevitably have great melody and clear message. If you want to write songs, you need a great melody and a clear message.

[@hansgrayman4809]

All the instruments and the rhythms and melodies there playing are part of a song. And what is a "song" leaves a lot of room for interpretation to me. As a vocalist and guitarist myself, who plays bass and some keys too, I enjoy instrumental music. But few people hum Dream Theater, Joe Satriani and Polyphia songs throughout their day. And for those that do, how many are musicians. Then compare how many people hum the lyrics and melody to Yesterday, Beat it, or some pos pop song from today they heard streaming earlier. It's the lyrics and vocal melody most people remember from any songs they remember.

[@finnvanderbar3935]

Dream theater ain't an instrumental band bro. But I totally agree with your take, good music is music anyone enjoys not theory heavy snob music

[@hansgrayman4809]

@@finnvanderbar3935 Not completely no. But they have a lot more instrumental based songs and structure than lots of other bands. Which is why I used them as an example in this context.

[@finnvanderbar3935]

@@hansgrayman4809 yeah yeah i thought you might have been confused with like the liquid tension experiment or something but i do get it

[@hansgrayman4809]

@@finnvanderbar3935 It's no problem. Which reminds me, I actually have that album somewhere. I can't remember which case it's in. Petrucci's latest solo album is quite good too. Posted to his channel.

[@finnvanderbar3935]

@@hansgrayman4809 yeah ive checked out some of the songs and its pretty sick, again falls into the pit that a lot of instrumental prog does where its a little lacking in the catchyness department but overall its a fun listen

[@aldovinuela1144]

Nice video! Deep stuff if you think about it

[@charizardmaster13]

I feel like its still very much subjective to the listener. Because whilst one piece of music may say nothing to one listener that same peice may tell a whole story to a different one without the need for lyrics. Acts like stomp or animals as leaders etc. That are purely instrumental imo tell stories and paint pictures in your mind without the need for lyrics. And yes sometimes they use a topline but often times they dont and id still consider those songs. A lot of times youll find people will apply different rules to hwo they classify music purely based on if they enjoy it. For instance many people use the term riff salad until its a song they enjoy even if it also technically counts as a riff salad but because they enjoy it they ignore the logic of the term and put their emotions behind the music purely because they like it. My basic point being i think its still hugely subjective what makes a song to different listeners.

[@Nick_Reinhardt]

Idk man, "the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell" kinda hit me man

[@AgressiveElevatorMusic]

Songs have to “sing”. Instruments can sing but voice is the standard choice. Just how I think about it.

[@brianbergmusic5288]

Concise and hits you in the 'gut'! It even explains why Beethoven's fifth isn't really a song (in spite of it being "filthy" with melody).

[@1verzhn]

That’s why your stream is so much fun. An outside reality check😂

[@redcomn]

For me it’s story and music. Melody is just no1 tools to writes it

[@ericfritts5994]

Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell

[@gnuwaves743]

I liked Adam when his head was shaved. He reminded my of young Professor X. James McAvoy vibes.

[@WutipongWongsakuldej]

Listen to you makes me think of "Smoke on the water". People remember the riff, it's iconic after all. However without telling the story of the band went to Frank Zappa shows and the venue was burnt to the ground, that song might not be as interesting as it is (edit: I tone the comments down a bit... ) In fact I learned the meaning of the lyric much later after listening to the song in my youth (English is not my native, and I'm still not very good at it lol). The song become much more interesting after carefully listening to it and learn the story it's telling.

[@Tekkerue]

You could solve all of this unnecessary headache by just hosting a riff writing contest. Big brain move! 🧠😂

[@treyxaviermusic]

I actually did do that already, it was quite a bit less headache but also like, the world doesn't need more of those

[@Tekkerue]

@@treyxaviermusic The world can *_always_* use more riffs! 🙃

[@Blazikenas]

Hmm. One question about some examples arises. Big parts of early Metallica's instrumental dont really have a topline. Still feels like they are amazing songs to me though. Makes me think that certain riffs can also be a topline (?)

[@staida]

A song has to sing. It has to say something, anything. Joe Satriani's guitar sings in his songs, so no, it is not limited to vocal music - but there must be singing, or the voicing (in some form) a transference of idea or theme. A song is a complete thought, not just a riff or random idea, not a collection of showboating - not some snippets on a scratchpad of something you're workshopping. I would almost say it must be a story - but you do not need to understand that story so it need not be lyrical. It just needs to move the needle from start to finish - to take you by the hand to where it's going.

[@jdreyt9385]

Do you still do Gear Reviews? If so can you check out the Mooer Ge 150 or 200?

[@treyxaviermusic]

No I do not, but the 200 is rad

[@jdreyt9385]

@@treyxaviermusic that is enough of a Review to convince me to buy one. Cheers!

[@treyxaviermusic]

I will say the 250 is worth spending a little more for to get the extra footswitch and XLR out

[@jeremythornton433]

IMHO, if you want to study songcraft, you might want to start with the Beatles. Try their early stuff. Even if you don't like them, they sure as hell knew how to write a killer song.

[@finnvanderbar3935]

We all know what makes a song: the guitar solo

[@pavelmerkulov7417]

Эдуард Хиль навсегда!

[@dropaudio7586]

Your video description needs more SEO to drive up the traffic. Try just transcribing the first bit of the video up to like the end of Adam Neely's section.

[@xamislimelight8965]

I've heard the "it's only a song if there's vocals" take before. I respond, every time, with this: so, you would tell Mozart that's not a song then?

[@orlock20]

Mozart's music is referred to as "works" and "pieces."

[@xamislimelight8965]

@@orlock20 but would you tell him it's not a song? Because I don't think any of us would. We listen to it the same way, holds the same writing elements, except words. I can take away the mayo, but its still a sandwich.

[@xamislimelight8965]

@@orlock20 to word it a little better, a sub is also a sandwich.

[@brianbergmusic5288]

I don't think Mozart would argue. If he was tasked to write a 'song', he would actually write one and have a trained singer sing it (he did write 20+ operas).

[@xamislimelight8965]

@@brianbergmusic5288 See, this just brings me back to sandwiches lol. Sub, hoggie, hotdog, taco, these are all different types of sandwhiches. And going back to what orlock said about them being called pieces and works, bands will come out and say "this next piece is.." then play what typical people call a song. Again, I can take the mayo or cheese off (lyrics, if you will) but it's still a sandwich. I'm not arguing with anyone, by the way, I'm actually finding this debate quite fun and engaging lol

[@corm1000]

You said a riff doesn't make a song, but a riff could be the melody.

[@AFRoSHEENT3ARCMICHAEL69]

Did you make that? Cleaver.

[@randallhall9670]

Sing, Sang ,Song. The logical conclusion should be obvious. Vocals make a song a song by definition. No story, language, words or lyrics needed. The story can be communicated through the evocation of emotions invoked by the music.

[@joeEnrique]

trey is making my life complicated now i dont know what is a song lol

[@SubStarLex]

Isn't it a song because it is sung?

[@orlock20]

Words with music is a song. Music without vocals is an instrumental. Vocals without music is "a cappella."

[@saberreiter8569]

did you conjur Adam Neely by looking in the bathroom mirror and uttering "gimme the jazz" three times?

[@chrisrobinson5103]

Repetition legitimizes. Repetition legitimizes. Repetition legitimizes.

[@johnpatitucci7919]

It frustrates me when a singer writes lyrics that completely drown out the song and not allow the music to set the stage for the story.

[@iamdecentatguitar1091]

First!

[@treyxaviermusic]

you'll be ahead of these riff salad chefs

[@iamdecentatguitar1091]

@@treyxaviermusic let’s hope! Thanks for all of the awesome and helpful vids!

[@Silverjerk]

Homie, I love you and this channel. But if these dudes can’t even get it together enough to read a simple set of rules, I’m not sure there’s any help for them. I mean, I get it; this is good content and a much needed video for up-and-coming musicians (and I’m watching it because I’m a simple man and I see Trey and I click). But you could dedicate an entire channel to the number of submissions that forgot what it was like to use their eyeballs alongside their brains.

[@treyxaviermusic]

Yeah it was those kinds of entries that prompted me to finally make this one but it's also something I've wanted to do for a while, felt like a good time to do it. But I think you're right, you can lead a horse to water...

[@Silverjerk]

@@treyxaviermusic But you can't make it think.

[@treyxaviermusic]

@@Silverjerk NEIGHHHHHH

[@BeanDogStudios]

Is 4'33'' a song?

[@Burnt_Gerbil]

I think it is. So is “Water Walk.” 😂

[@lisatruelove9834]

So I'm actually trying to just write and sing but don't know how to play any instruments at all. I'm thinking I really need to pick up something but definitely love this explanation on what a song is

[@ThatBaritoneGuitarGuy]

Wait. Neanderthals sang? Singing is where language came from? Where can I find this research? Serious question. I want to read this for myself.

[@cheefukeefu]

i took a music appreciation course (essentially just learning definitions of musical terms and music history) and the definition i got from the class is anything without lyrics/singing is not considered a song. so while i can appreciate an instrumental with a topline that isn't just a riff salad, they're technically not songs. however the term song has become so general to describe literally just about any music today that it's not the hugest deal either

[@JuiceboxDesmond]

Word. Adam Neely is rad.

[@Tt-nt1iu]

A top line is almost always lyrical because 99.9% can't play an instrument BUUUUTT they can sing a song .... out of key .... in a car.

[@ar156]

I agree but also disagree

[@iodfusj]

Compression and pig squeals

[@scaleitback1055]

The reason this is lacking in music now is because everything but melody can be emulated by anyone with time and money. The internet is inundated with people that aren’t artists making “music” because they know what Meshuggah or their copycats are, and can piece together rhythms. Everything else everyone adds is just pop structure and aesthetics. Melody comes from an artist, background music comes from worker drones. And since all modern people are interchangeable, melody is dead, at least in the west.

[@brianbergmusic5288]

You haven't seen this video, have you: The Death of Melody? kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWG5n2yMYtmFedE (It's hidden from youTube searches; probably due to demonetization due to the copyright gestapo)

[@scaleitback1055]

@@MATCHLESS789 what’s your phrasing going to be without melody? Oh right, djent. Thanks, modernity.

[@brianbergmusic5288]

@@MATCHLESS789 Phrasing is merely a way to interpret melody and more pertinent to a discussion on improvisation/blues/swing.

[@ileutur6863]

@@scaleitback1055 You are a delusional weirdo if you actually believe any of this stuff. The west? Modernity? Worker drones playing rhythm? You talk like an out of touch politician

[@James_Noone]

Your intro is waaaay too long bro

[@MatthewSwasta]

hahaha...smarter than me... Everyone! then, define melody! Change of Season not a song, but a series of movements...now I need to have a movement Oh, and this is a song! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWrbomh3drmAppY

[@LilView]

Trying to define what makes a "song" is futile in my opinion. I think the true purpose of music and sound in general are beyond human comprehension and are ultimately part of something much larger within the grand scheme of the universe.

[@TwoandaHater]

Why do people think AN is that smart? I think Trey's definition in the top-line video is better.

[@orlock20]

Only the extreme top players can make an instrumental top-line interesting. Even blues players sing for a minute in their 10 minute songs.

[@SubStarLex]

Isn't it a song because it is sung?