What Makes an Elder Dragon? | MTG Lore

[@frithnfirth]

Niv-Mizzet meets your criteria and Mr. Rosewater has indicated that it's possible Niv should be an Elder. His character was first introduced before they started reusing the Elder creature type. Perhaps Niv-Mizzet should at least get a shout-out!

[@arnelarroyo2032]

yep, he's more than 16,000 yr old as of WAR

[@frithnfirth]

Definitely...Niv's a dragon with intellect to spare, a dragon archmage, fought Bolas and gave him hell, and cheated death. Surely all that counts for something!

[@TheLorebrarians]

You're absolutely right! But don't worry, Niv will have his own video in the future, a chance to be in the spotlight

[@frithnfirth]

Woot!!! "(Z->)90° - (E-N²W)90°t=1"

[@torysaccount5753]

If Belzenlok is an Elder Demon, Rakdos should be one too

[@michaelf5031]

Regarding the Dominaria elders, magic story technically left Palladia Mors in a deep sleep (rather than dead). But it does not seem like there has been much interest in waking her up in modern magic story so she may as well be dead.

[@karl-erikvik3400]

I'd love to see more low-scale sets. Arcadia being the villain of an entire set on Dominaria, and some none-planeswalkers trying to take her down would be sick.

[@chenproductions7414]

Such an underrated channel, amazing vids!

[@TheLorebrarians]

Thank you, we'll get there one day!

[@agm5424]

I have a theory on Ugin's original color combination before he became colorless. I think he was born with the Temur color combination centered in Blue. Here are my reasons for it: 1. He always had a desire to explore and learn (B,R) everything about the multiverse while preserving and protecting it (G) like when he didn't want the gate watch to eliminate the eldrazi because they might hold and important role in the multiverse (G). 2. Being Nicol Bolas twin brother and sharing an egg with him it would make sense that they shared more than one color, in their case Blue and Red. 3. If I remember correctly he's powers revolved around creating living things from mana like the dragons of Tarkir from the dragon storm. The Temur color combo has always been the color capable of creating things from nothing and manifesting things like dreams, spirits and illusions into reality and giving life and sentience to natural forces like elementals. 4. There's also the whole thing about Ugin being "the soul of Tarkir". Ugin, a pre mending plains walker AND an Elder Dragon would have the power to either create the plane or molded it in his image. If he is a wedge color dragon then that might explain why Tarkir is a wedge color centered plane. And remember, where was he in fate reforged fighting Bolas?, in or close to Temur territory. 5. Put his card shown in the video next to the Temur/rBg apex predator of Ikoria, Illuna. They clearly look as if they might be related or in other words born out of the same mana combination. And what are her powers? O yes creating life, in her case beasts, out of nothing. Those are my reasons. Please leave your feed back it helps give strength to my imagination. Or better yet put your ideas of what ancient EDs from Dominaria with a wedge color combo centered on the enemy color looked and acted like.

[@joaocisne556]

I think he was Jeskai

[@agm5424]

@@joaocisne556 an interesting opinion. How so/what are your reasons?...

[@joaocisne556]

@@agm5424 his abilities: his up ability does damage, which is red, he does exile and gains life, both are white, and he draws you a lot of cards without a specific condition, a blue ability

[@agm5424]

@@joaocisne556 Ok the thing is that I know next to nothing on how the color and lore manifest in the card game itself. I don't play the game I'm only know MTG via the lore, story and above all the color philosophy. But I'll have to trust those who do play on it. I still hold that Ugin is gBr through how color philosophy manifest in the stories. But I'm interested, how would Ugin's personality and actions are a manifestation of the Jeskai/bRw colors?

[@joaocisne556]

@@agm5424 white is the color of order and balance, and ugin's main motivation is the balance of the multiverse, he is clearly very intelligent and clever also seek to improve (blue) but has emotional out bursts, like when sarkhan vol mentions bolas, the rant he dished out to jace after killing ulamog and kozzilek, and his spark ignited after his heart was broken by bolas (red)

[@envoy2500]

The inclusion of the Tarkir Dragons as Elders really brings into question why Niv-Mizzet isn't one...

[@lucario2able]

Love your channel so much. Literally every video I watch is amazingly detailed. I've always been fascinated by the lore in MTG but rarely find a place where it's all simple and laid out. Amazing I know in the Nicol Bolas video Ugin was mentioned alot but he's my favorite planeswalker followed by Jace. Are any Jace or Ugin videos coming?

[@TheLorebrarians]

Thank you for the kind words, I love hearing that I'm able to help build a stronger connection between people and their hobbies! I appreciate the suggestions, Jace has been much requested so I'm sure he'll have a video in the coming months

[@joey.advanced1]

Easily the best MtG Lore channel on KZbin, probably the best MtG Channel to be honest.

[@TheLorebrarians]

Thanks, I appreciate it

[@KostasTheDark]

War of the Spark Bolas proved intellect isn't needed to be an Elder Dragon. He made literally every wrong decision he could in that entire arc.

[@An_Ian]

Didn't every minion of his betray him?

[@DexterityYTC]

That wasn’t Bolas, that was the horrible writing team WotC has these days. Literally 20 years of build up of a character to be completely resolved in a 3 set arc filled with Disney levels of bland writing complete with unearned sacrifices and a band of underdog boy scouts that should not even have half of a chance.

[@KostasTheDark]

@@DexterityYTC Make no mistake I can tell the difference between a stupid character and bad writing. I perfectly understand that the current writing team fucked him over, which is why I referred to him as "War of the Spark Bolas", to emphasize the distinction. I wasn't around for the game's early days, but I can see how a character with Bolas's sizeable fanbase was probably much better written before I came across him. Nevertheless, loathe as I am to accept it, the War of the Spark storyline remains canon and WotC is unlikely to retcon it, so we are stuck with what we have.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

Bolas got fucked by plot armor because no writer can resist such a dark trope/art.

[@kakerlake4468]

As always, such a pleasure to watch your videos ! Thank you Lorebrarians !

[@TheLorebrarians]

You bet, so glad you like them!

[@CLAREROMVoid]

Atarka is my favorite, the girl just want to eat. You never let your favorite girl go hungry. NEVER! Besides, her Dragonlord art is gorgeous.

[@dobby092]

Great vid, man!! I love these long lored vids, great work!

[@arnelarroyo2032]

curious though Tarkir, 1000yrs between FRF and DTK: elder dragons Arcavios, 700yrs since founding of Strixhaven: elder dragons Niv Mizzet, 16,000yr old (as of WAR): not an elder 😅😅😅

[@TheLorebrarians]

Haha Niv is definitely unique. He's one of my favorite characters and will be getting some coverage in the coming weeks

[@andrewfornes5320]

My brother always thought that maybe Niv wasn't a dragon initially. Maybe he was a lower life form that used his intellect to become what he knew at the time to be the strongest being. Now, he is on the hunt to try and find out how to be a planeswalker/how they work, because he knows something stronger than a dragon exists... and maybe that is why he isn't an elder. Probably wrong, but I've always liked the idea.

[@bradsimpson8724]

I don't play a ton of dragons(yet; there's a dragon deck for my daughter in the near future), but Dragonlord Dromoka and Niv-Mizzet, Parun, seem to pop up nearly every time I'm making an appropriately-coloured deck.

[@andreschion2334]

That is interesting. And it's also curious how the plane where the dragons made of opposing colors is far more peaceful than other examples. Do you think they'll complete the snarls for the allied colors? Considering the lore implications of them, will we have a new plane in the nearby future or head back to tarkir and treat the storms as snarls?

[@TheLorebrarians]

It is kinda curious, although Arcavios was far from peaceful during the centuries long blood age. I really think it would be cool to return to arcavios and uncover the allied colors, and it could work lore-wise since there is a largely unexplored second continent

[@wimberlen]

Shadrix is such a good card

[@xavierdeabreu1991]

Another one 💪‼each vid gets better and better.

[@TheLorebrarians]

Thanks so much!

[@DefaultSeaTurtle]

As a completionist, I'm waiting for a cycle of Elder Dragons using the color wedges.

[@TheLorebrarians]

Same here, I think that would be a really cool cycle in a master-style set

[@johnjohnson-wg7jv]

I wouldn't mind some mono-coloured elders either.

[@DefaultSeaTurtle]

@@johnjohnson-wg7jv Hell, while we're listing things, I'm just going to throw in a 4-color cycle would be cool too. Why not?

[@bentr4]

They just spoiled a mardu one

[@MustangMike52]

*Piru has entered the chat*

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

Niv Mizzet is my fave

[@simianurchin7630]

One thing I’m quite confused about is mtg lore is the fact niv mizzet isn’t considered an elder dragon even though 1. He’s over 16,000 years old 2. Have one of the high intellects in the multiverse 3. Has a strong connection and mastery over blue and red mana (and even later one as the guild pact all 5) and 4. Immense power firmly holding his guild under his power and fighting over the others

[@TheLorebrarians]

I agree, Niv is certainly on par with the elder dragons but hasn't received the card type. I do intend to cover his own story in a future video

[@simianurchin7630]

@@TheLorebrarians oh cool niv is one of my favorite it characters in mtg, and I forgot to mention after becoming the living guild pact he’s become one of the strongest beings in the multiverse even surpassing some gods. If the eternals hadn’t gotten involved I feel he could’ve stood up to nicol. To be fair though being considered an “avatar” I feel is a step above an elder

[@markanthony559]

Gotta love dragon's 🐲

[@BickSnarf]

And then piru gets a card just after release xD

[@thomaswitten8662]

Is it possible that if we revisit Alara, there might be some more elder dragons that were just born?

[@TheLorebrarians]

I think the merging of the plane could release enough mana to create very powerful dragons, but if so they'd be too young to be elders

[@teresarunions5594]

Great video. Though I have a question. Based on this would Niv-Mizzet of Ravnica also be an Elder Dragon rather than an ancient Dragon? Just curious to your thoughts.

[@teresarunions5594]

Also Ugin is my favorite Elder Dragon.

[@TheLorebrarians]

I think Niv definitely meets these criteria even if he hasn't been printed with the elder creature type. But Being reborn as a dragon avatar might prevent him from ever getting that type. And ugin is my favorite character in all MTG!

[@HankJ666]

Calling 2 color decks by their Ravnica guild: I sleep Calling 2 color decks by their Elder Dragon: *REAL SHIT?!*

[@CLAREROMVoid]

Hell freaking yeah Hanki, BECAUSE DRAGONS!

[@Th3Rad10D3m0m]

So an elder dragon has to be old, Niv mizzet is old So an elder dragon has to be smart, Niv Mizzet is smart So an elder dragon has to be skilled in their colors of mana, Niv Mizzet is skilled in red and blue mana So an elder dragon has to be powerful, Niv Mizzet is powerful SO WHY IS NIV MIZZET NOT AN ELDER DRAGON?

[@deabogg]

Even better now he’s an avatar

[@jimcharles1479]

great video man

[@Lobomaru02]

We need Elder Dragons that are monocolor, wedge aligned, four color, and Niv Mizzet can be the five color Elder Dragon. Then we'll have _all_ the color combinations.

[@The_Loreseeker]

The 'elder' type line

[@whitedrawf]

You can run it in an EDH deck?

[@gothic22d]

Love it.

[@ssjfroku]

All I play is dragons in mtga lol I cant help it, I always try to make a perfectly balanced 5 color deck with all the legendary dragons or close to it. I think my favorite dragon may be vae victis, no other card let's you choose what your opponent will sacrifice only way around this is to give it hexproof or counter the triggered ability. And combo'd with Tergird, it gets very nasty.

[@TheLorebrarians]

Haha sounds like a crazy good time! Dragons are super cool. I think my favorite is chromium, mainly because of his name

[@ssjfroku]

@@TheLorebrarians chromium is definitely one of the cool ones AND he cant be countered, his activated ability comes in handy as well, very versatile dragon indeed, I havent put him in my decks as of late because of cost but I just may now that I have been running a dragon reanimating deck. Bringing back witherbloom dragon early and paying 10 life to untap all mana is very convenient if you can do it right and at the right time, the new lorehold dragon is VERY awesome as well cant tell you how many times it has saved my butt lol

[@Batrstad]

I heard "Punching the Dragons to extinction" XD

[@crisgon9552]

How about the new Ancient Dragon cycle? They don't feel as Elder but still interesting.

[@medramonmasquedecendres2966]

I think Palladia-Mors is still alive, she wasn't killed but plunged into a magical sleep. Likely she's snorring under the town of Mors Ridge on Dominaria.

[@TheLorebrarians]

Yeah, it's seems like she's in creative purgatory. Not technically dead, but virtually gone from the story until they might need her

[@andrewsowl8696]

What about Niv Mizzit?

[@TheLorebrarians]

His story is being written as we speak :)

[@nicholasdickson8698]

You need more attention 🤠

[@TheLorebrarians]

Spread the word!

[@SchwabGames2014]

So, Nicol Bolas, by some technical extent is an uncle?

[@Hyper-Nova.]

what separate a dragon avatar and elder bc shouldn't the ur-dragon be an elder under these rules

[@Ok_toker69]

How do you consider the strixhaven dragons to be elders but not Niv Mizzet who is 25,000 years old? That’s way more than 3,500… Do we know what year we visited Tarkhir? And in the new/current timeline with the Elder dragons… a year would be nice so we could put an age on the plane therefore the dragons instead of assuming it’s only 1000 years old

[@rmcminiking]

Dear video essay makers, Please pump up the volume just a little bit!.. People like me who listen on an old phone can't even hear it over the sound of pouring some cereal 😅 Sincerely, The Poor

[@TheLorebrarians]

Hopefully more recent videos have improved!

[@boris_bulletdodger9109]

Positive comment

[@RockZerr]

the age

[@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299]

To Ur is Dragon; to burn, divine ;p LOL

[@Ok_toker69]

Lol what makes an elder dragon? They have to be from the first birthing of dragons that landed on Dominaria from the UrDragon. I thought that was understood? Theres 5 original elder dragon siblings and 2 cousins. 1 died right after hatching, 2/5 are the twins. The rest of the “elder dragons” aren’t elder dragons, they’re older dragons from their own plane of Tarkhir not Dominaria. And the Tarkhir dragons are offspring of offspring of offspring of Dominaria elder dragons that has plane shifted through time spiral crisis… They’re far from the blood line of the Ur Dragon… They’re simply older dragons… larger than the elder dragons… but much more dragon like and more beast like, dumber and less powerful than the true elder dragons which were smaller, smarter and somewhat humanoid

[@TheBrimfire]

You know my issues these days....love fantasy but HATE despise companys like wotc or gw....😢

[@TheBrimfire]

Magic and dragons are dear to me but ...god do i hate what became of wotc