What Are Elder Dragons? A Comprehensive History | Magic: The Gathering Lore

[@Kolbjornelenano]

still waiting for a Niv-Mizzet elder dragon card. He's at least 10,000 years old and the smartest living being on Ravnica, He deserves it

[@AetherHub]

Still not old enough to be an “elder” smh

[@Timby_]

I fully thought he was already and was confused as to why Ravnica was skipped in the timeline lol

[@arnelarroyo2032]

Tarkir dragons: 1000yrs from FRF to DTK, elders Arcavios dragons: 700yrs since strix founding, elders Niv: 16000yrs as of War, NOT ELDER

[@StormDunakin]

Bolas refers to him as a baby dragon in one of the Ravnica books.

[@Kattywagon29]

I didn't realize that he wasn't an elder

[@aceundead4750]

Nicol Bolas is my favorite elder dragon. He was the first MTG card i actually ever saw, thought he was a goblin at first just because of the artwork on his original card

[@AetherHub]

This video got a lot of support early. Thank you all! Also to the 5 dislikes… may the elders take you 😎

[@agm5424]

On regards to a pre sparked/colorless Ugin card, I left this comment in one of The Lorebrarian videos: I have a theory on Ugin's original color combination before he became colorless. I think he was born with the Temur color combination centered in Blue. Here are my reasons for it: 1. He always had a desire to explore and learn (B,R) everything about the multiverse while preserving and protecting it (G) like when he didn't want the gate watch to eliminate the eldrazi because they might hold and important role in the multiverse (G). 2. Being Nicol Bolas twin brother and sharing an egg with him it would make sense that they shared more than one color, in their case Blue and Red. 3. If I remember correctly he's powers revolved around creating living things from mana like the dragons of Tarkir from the dragon storm. The Temur color combo has always been the color capable of creating things from nothing and manifesting things like dreams, spirits and illusions into reality and giving life and sentience to natural forces like elementals. 4. There's also the whole thing about Ugin being "the soul of Tarkir". Ugin, a pre mending plains walker AND an Elder Dragon would have the power to either create the plane or re-molded it in his image. If he is a wedge color dragon then that might explain why Tarkir is a wedge color centered plane. And remember, where was he in fate reforged fighting Bolas?, in or close to Temur territory. 5. Put his card next to the Temur/rBg apex predator of Ikoria, Illuna. They clearly look as if they might be related or in other words born out of the same mana combination. And what are her powers? O yes creating life, in her case beasts, out of nothing. Those are my reasons. Please leave your feed back it helps give strength to my imagination. Or better yet put your ideas of what ancient EDs from Dominaria with a wedge color combo centered on the enemy color looked and acted like.

[@koukaakiva]

Maybe the Elder type was nerfed in a similar way to Planeswalkers being nerfed by the Mending. Maybe those pre-Mending Elder Dragons were godlike in the same way pre-Mending Planeswalkers were, but the mending changed what it meant to be an Elder.

[@keiv7774]

Shame that the Ur-Dragon wasn’t involved with the Arcavios Elder Dragons, it would have been great way to see how the Elder Dragons are connected to Ur-Dragon and also see him involved in more planes aside from Dominaria

[@WTF-Cubing]

This made me realize how special the dragons of Arcavios really are.

[@hiddenleaf414]

“What Khans-titutes and Elder Dragon.” I see what ya did there.

[@AetherHub]

;)

[@nategraham6946]

I see no reason why "Elder" should be reserved for dragons per se. I love the idea of Elder being added to other creature types, and have no problem with it being added to a different set of dragons. For those planes they very much would be roughly the equivalent to the original Elder Dragons, other than not being spawned from the Ur-Dragon.

[@henryterhune5066]

Though I will say - Planeswalkers have been nerfed, but until they start dying with any frequency I have a hard time accepting nerfing monsters to meet them. That's just me though. I'm kinda sick if the superhero era of Planeswalkers

[@AetherHub]

You’re right. They are basically immortal simply because none die lol

[@oriondye3212]

Too much plot armor in the game. I preferred the era before plane walkers, remember when people used to grumble about platinum angel and indestructible being in game.

[@christopherb501]

1:40 We need more Origins-style 'walker cards in general.

[@AetherHub]

Dude agreed. They need to stop saving them just for commander sets

[@xRNGesusx]

I am a simple man. I see a lore video on dragons, and I click

[@keiv7774]

I really liked that the titans of Theros are Elder Giants, make it impactful as Forces equal almost to the gods of Theros. Belzenok I do not agree with, because the other demons weren’t Elder and since he was easily defeated I guess it doesn’t feel elder

[@edkolbe1850]

Belzenlok being an Eldar Demon is in my mind for the flavor since his whole story is manipulating history.

[@psy_p]

Easily defeated? They literaly needed a sword that kills elder dragons to kill Belzenlok. The Kothophed and Griselbrand were 1v1ed by Liliana and Razaketh was mostly 1v1 by her.

[@keiv7774]

@@psy_p The fight was a bit short for my taste. And yes they used a legendary sword but only (and if I remember correctly) because Liliana didn’t wanted to use the Veil (which is no longer a thing anymore). I wanted more team up to defeat him, even Razaketh seem harder to deal with. This is mostly how I perceived the fights of those two demons. Probably for me, Withengar seems more of an Elder Demon than Belzenok

[@henryterhune5066]

Elder is definitely more meaningful when it is more exclusive. I don't know that it needs to have been retired, but it is pretty cheap now. Either way, fantastic video, mate. Keep on keeping on.

[@commanderthegathering3004]

Last time I was this early, Tarkir had no elder dragons....

[@AetherHub]

Hmmmm 100000 years ago

[@commanderthegathering3004]

@@AetherHub I age gracefully.

[@mafiuyu4305]

very nice to learn a bit more of the old lore of magic and the origins of the elder dragons

[@oldbordergeek]

But this clown forgot half of them from invasion Block. These dragons are childeren of the og legends dragons. For example, rith the awakener is the Child of the Esper one.

[@nathanb5579]

Homie knows his dragons

[@sebastiaofreire2423]

Really enjoy these videos. Keep'em coming and keep your spirit up ;)

[@AetherHub]

Thanks man. Really appreciate it

[@hectorelizondo1905]

I was literally just thinking about this last night because I wanted to bring in more Elder Dragons into my D&D/MTG game. Thanks!

[@terryprentice9657]

The original Legends set was designed by Steve Conrad & Robin Herbert. They based it off their D&D campaign.

[@SasoriAkutski]

Great video man, i loved this discussion. im a big fan of running tribal decks and dragons is one ive been curious about. Also just a personal preference but this video style is great!

[@gothic22d]

Loving your videos, man.

[@chugiakjrtheplaywwright6461]

One possibility is that Elder Dragon is a title referring to the first dragons of a plane, and the ones from which the other dragons are descended from.

[@luka2507]

I’m glad I was brought here “early” after watching phyrexian, eldrazi, and inistrad lore vids

[@codylarsen941]

I love the fact that they are changing the definition of elder. If you really think about all the planes in the multiverse, there are most likely many, many, many elder peoples

[@LatinoJackson]

Ugin left his "essence" on Tarkir? Eeewwwww

[@MackAttack-vh1vz]

Awesome video!!

[@malcolmtait5225]

Awesome explanation - up the great work :)

[@stevenbland4035]

Personally, I do like the use of the Elder creature type to denote epic, ancient beings. Would love to see it on a hydra or leviathan at some point.

[@ToadMasterMagic]

Elder Hydra, I like the idea of fighting a WISE Hydra.

[@Luismariobros]

I know it may be kinda late but i really like Breya, Etherium Shaper and would really love to see a Lore video of her

[@TheArcSet]

Thanks for this video.

[@matthewwasser5621]

There is still a possibility that we can visit a plane with true Elder Dragons birthed from the Ur Dragon

[@fosterramirez5546]

I think that elder is more of a title to a creature that has enough power to shake the very foundation of the planes and cause serious damage.

[@kolrot3343]

hey, does anybody know where I can get the "black elder dragon" from ? thanks

[@unbreakablelag]

Theories I have about Elder Dragons : vaevictis asmadi is alive and Bolas lied about his death because he doesn’t know what happened to him. We will see Piru return in some fashion since her soul is in possession of an power evil planeswalker whose whereabouts are currently unknown. The Strixhaven elder dragons came from the Ur- Dragon but didn’t hatch until they got enough mana when the two planes fused. A result of the lower mana in the multiverse after the mending. Speaking of the mending, the reason all Elder Dragons are now two mana instead of three is also because of the mending making less mana available.

[@inserttaken_name1762]

as someone who loves ghalta more then any card in this game i think im ok with the elder title going places

[@DenverEight]

An interesting retcon could be found in the dreams of dragons. Maybe a dragon dreams of the progenitor. A link of the soul that warps their natures. A spiritual trial that leaves them elders upon proving themselves. The quality of their hoards. Their accumulated knowledge and the power comparable to gods.

[@envoy2500]

Maybe another Modern Horizons or Time Shifted set will give us the other 4 enemy color Elder Dragons from the timeline that spawned the Planar Chaos enemy color Primeval Dragons

[@thomaswitten8662]

If we got another mtg origins set it would be interesting to see a pre-planeswalker Ugin, Nahiri, and Sorin.

[@zachariahpoltergeist4516]

Wait, HOW long was it until we saw the return of Elder Dragons from the original printings in Legends?

[@Uzotrups]

it seems "elder" is tied to the primordial natures of those creatures in relation to their planes. It makes sense, but the lineage aspect from the Ur-Dragon was really really cool, and its a shame

[@thecoopaloop99]

Love these videos

[@souleater1551]

Do you think Nicol Bolas will ever return or make a appearance again maybe without a spark and just be an older dragon again I feel like there's going to be something more to the story with him and the others like with garruk being free of his curse of the chain and Liliana being a professor I feel like he will make appearance back for some cataclysmic event that the planeswalkers need his help to stop it

[@terryprentice9657]

Maro has said that if they never intended to bring Bolas back at some point, they would have killed him off in WotS. So, he will be back some day.

[@Commander_Skullblade]

Problem with the age idea on why Dragons become elders is the fact that Niv-Mizzet isn't one himself, and he's 10,000 years old. I believe that for a dragon to become an elder, it must be closely related to the Ur-Dragon, such as a child or grandchild. The Tarkir dragons were children of Ugin (in a sense). However, the Strixhaven Elder Dragons are just supposed to be really old dragons that somehow are meant to finish the Tarkir cycle? I don't think the fact that these dragons have commands like the Tarkir dragons is an accident either. This might be worthy of tin foil hats, but I believe that it would be fitting and very poetic if the Strixhaven Elder Dragons were the children of Nicol Bolas. Yeah, sure these dragons are nothing like Bolas, and are more inclined to share power rather than hoard it, but the Tarkir dragons are power hungry and wrathful, unlike their father. Just something to think about.

[@Onikokoro]

Just need the elder cycle finished having 6 of 10 is driving me crazy 🤣

[@serpentdrake4490]

I think the titens like Sun titen and grave titen are the ones that gave life to the gods on tharos in my Canon

[@paulpoumet773]

Ok I totally accept that the five Elders of Strixhaven are under the level of Bolas, but saying that they are below the Tarkir I do doubt it though, lorewise of course (not taking the game mechanics into account). I think some people have the feeling of these five Elders being under thoe from Tarkir due to the first being less directly impactful and active in the story as those from Tarkir. But lorewise, the plane Tarkir story is more important in the whole magic storyline which helps in the illusion that the Elders from this plane are more powerful than those of other less devloped planes/storyline. Meanwhile, Arcavios storyline was just a chapter totally unlinked to the maine Magic storyline, like a filler episode, which gives the illusion that the Elders from this plane are weak. In addition to the fact that we see more the Elders of Tarkir in action than the Elders of Arcavios, but it's not because they are show to act less that they are indeed less powerful. We don't see much of Gandlaf's or Dumbledore's direct actions and act of magic and power in Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings, but at absolutly no moment that means these two character are weak. Same for the five of Arcavios, we don't see much of them but regarding the lore they are clearly not under the level of the five of Tarkir.

[@swakage13x]

As someone who plays both atarka world render and beledros witherbloom while they may not be as physically strong as the Legends era they are still incredibly strong in their own right, because one of them gives all dragons I control double strike when they attack that's pretty ridiculous in its own right, and with wither bloom every upkeep I make a token which means on my turn I can play a board wipe tap all my lands recast my commander untap every land I control and if I have stuff like parallel lives for example and a way to copy that enchantment like Mirage mirror in a game of 4 people I will get 16 tokens so as long as I can drop an extra land onto the battlefield every single turn that beautiful black green dragon is way more dangerous than every other Elder Dragon that has ever been printed I mean the red white from strict Haven pretty devastating when you think about it as long as you have the ability to continuously use his ability and the blue-green from strict Haven if you can bounce him on a regular basis and double the amount of counters on everything that is its own thing I mean one of my best friends runs the black white dragon and he made that deck absolutely destructive and devastating to the point where I can barely keep up with either my red green dragons or my black green tokens and even my blue red tokens are still barely able to keep up but because I can turn them into other things and I also have the Tyrant Hellkite with mycosynth lattice and darksteel Forge with padeem Consul of innovation that deck is still barely able to keep up with him at times

[@cop154]

Hold on but don't all Dragons in MTG have the blood of the progenitor The Ur dragon coursing through their veins?

[@supercannonball1236]

Last time I was this early I ... I ... I can't do comedy.

[@mwo79]

Last time I was this early, there were only 5 Elder Dragons.

[@AetherHub]

It was a good attempt brother

[@AetherHub]

@@mwo79 what happened 😫

[@mwo79]

@@AetherHub chronicles happened.

[@BoBnfishy]

You used the phrase "wildly speculated" when I think you meant "widely speculated"

[@aaron9797]

whey should have made azor an elder sphinx; also ulamog, kozilek and emrakul could also be elder eldrazi

[@sebastiaofreire2423]

I think Eldrazi by definition are already 'Elders'

[@aaron9797]

@@sebastiaofreire2423 i have been told that before still want elder eldrazi

[@psy_p]

@@aaron9797 elderazi?

[@nicolocorbellani9807]

Just because the elder dragon of strixhaven are passive observer doesn't mean that they are weak, also they were the first creature born on strixhaven so they must be powerful and ancient.

[@AetherHub]

Agreed. But just because they are powerful and old, doesn’t make them traditional elder dragons either.

[@mega2009man]

Maybe now that Niv-Mizzet has ascended beyond what he was before he too can lose his current title for elder, an Elder Dragon Avatar, he's literally 15000 years old. Definitely my favorite dragon. But, if I'm gonna be honest, the dragons of Strixhaven deserved a different title, more like Elder Dragon Wizards as it's what they are. Three have been used before so I don't know why they're so hesitant to use them some more...characters like these deserve it

[@psy_p]

After 'Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon' there is space for about 1 character more inthe type line of the cards.

[@mega2009man]

@@psy_p I think Ikoria alone proved how much they can fit, there's plenty of space for a small word like that

[@MRDLT00]

I hope they revisit the Elder Wurms and other losers of the Elder Dragon War who spawned the rest of Scaled Kind. Wurms as characters or big parts of stories haven’t really been a thing in MTG and could really shake things up.

[@magicandmace-1151]

Where is my Niv Mizzet elder dragon card Wizards

[@AetherHub]

Dude he would be an amazing elder dragon. But I think he’s an avatar now

[@magicandmace-1151]

I am curious to see where he is in terms of power now

[@firetarrasque4667]

Personally, I'd much prefer if we went back to the point where Elder Dragons were the direct descendants of the Ur-Dragon, and not just especially powerful and scary dragons.

[@Kokonutzlz]

So they have to be both A) Born of a magic swirl and B) Command respect/live a long time? Why not just have an Elder be a being that previously was just magic/existed as long as magic did on that plane and was made along with the plane or made from the same magic that made the plane (just later)? Like the Elder Dinosaurs on Ixalan, how did they get to be so massive? Were they simple dinosaurs hatched from normal eggs that eventually grew powerful enough and lived long enough to become that huge, or are they essentially a different race/progenitors of their species because they were born directly from raw dino magic? I think a good explanation for what I'm suggesting is the creature types Incarnation or Avatar Something I don't get is why the Strixhaven dragons are looked down on. If the 5 Original Elder Dragons were born of the Ur-Dragon, and the Ur-Dragon supposedly just came into existence as raw dragon magic (the plane had a swell of magic and out of it was born the Ur)... then aren't the Strixhaven dragons, who also came into being from raw powerful swells of magic, be more powerful than the Original Elders? They're first-generation on their plane, and the Originals are second-generation

[@mikhielbluemon4213]

I enjoy it on other creatures. I just with they were better. I think that "Elder Giant" is perfect for the Titans and Jotan such. I just wish that most were better. Even if it changed meaning, it should keep the same presence.

[@AUZZYNAPALM]

Ugins spark ignites as they are falling to the earth i thought? it wouldnt make sense for him to get a creature card, as he was a creature for all of few seconds.

[@ethanmacleod1721]

Not really, I read the story that details Ugin’s and Nicol’s early life, and they came from the same egg after falling from the wing of the Ur Dragon. In the end Ugin’s spark ignited much much latter when he found that his twin never really cared for him

[@AUZZYNAPALM]

@@ethanmacleod1721 read again, pretty sure ugins spark ignites as they are falling, he saves Bolas, and Bolas resents him for it from them on. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that is what Dominaria retconned it too.

[@ethanmacleod1721]

@@AUZZYNAPALM the one I read is from core set 2019, they both land on the ground and witness the death of Merrevia Sal (one of their siblings) which is sited as the leading cause to Nicol Bolas’s evil

[@AUZZYNAPALM]

@@ethanmacleod1721 that sounds right, my b

[@agm5424]

Well the title Elder comes naturally with someone who is strong, long lived, which will explain his/her strength, commands respect and is seeing as a teacher or at least a source of knowledge and wisdom. The whole being the leader of a group, clan or something like that may be optional since the title is has being use by those without an official following. I think there should at least ad the title Great as in Great Elder Dragon to those who are masters of at least three colors either through being born with them or through effort and just leave the title of elder dragon to the ones with two color combo like in tarkir and strixheaven since, and I might be wrong here, those who master three colors are obviously more powerful than those with two.

[@mvanoven11]

What does that make the ur dragon cause she's definitely not an elder dragon or a dragon god. Would she be a primordial dragon?

[@StormDunakin]

I prefer "Elder" being rarely used. Should be reserved for the most overly powerful cards not just most powerful Dragons. My favorite Elders happen to be the Elder Dinosaurs.

[@brotquel1592]

I honestly think you are underestimating the elder dinosaurs... these are not just "big old dinosaurs", they have magical abilities beyond compare. I mean, for cryng out loud: they could as well has called Zetalpa "Akromadactylus"!

[@nathanl8622]

I think WotC should be judicious about what cards get the title but I'm all in favor of the modern treatment of Elder. It's a cool and flavorful creature type, and it'd be a shame to limit it to only belonging to a group of characters that are mostly dead and whose influence is largely relegated to the game's early years.

[@cossakrose]

What are Elder Dragons? Well usually they're just dragons that are... old. Realistically that's the only real defining trait in most forms of media that depict them. They're usually pretty powerful, but also more often than not tend to be incredibly conceited and think lesser of other life forms. Yet, ironically, they're almost always defeated or killed by a mortal. So at the end of the day they're almost always just old dragons that, albeit powerful, tend to hype themselves up as being more "special" than they actually are.

[@AetherHub]

They’ve changed a lot over the years.

[@brownjacket2339]

Is Elder a lot? That depends. Dinossaurs? No. Dragons? Yes.

[@The_Loreseeker]

"Really old geckos"

[@ninjaman0003]

This video made me realize something. If dakkon summoned chromiums wife and she actually died, does that mean every time we play mtg, we are committing mass genocide?

[@terryprentice9657]

In the early days of MtG, it was implied that you were indeed summoning actual creatures from across the Multiverse. When Legends first came out, Legend cards were restricted to one of each Legend per deck to represent their uniqueness, not because of power level. This did not last long; the change was made around the time of Ice Age's release, the second set to have Legends. Also, if the same card was played while one was in play on either side of the board, the new one would die. This was the rule for much longer. This was finally changed for gameplay reasons to prevent "Legendblocking" your opponent. As MtG became more popular, WotC used the novels and comics to flesh out the lore and the function of magic in the Multiverse. Instead of summoning actual creatures, the "essential archetype" of a creature was created out of magic. So, if you summoned a goblin, it would be the essential archetype of a goblin. If you summoned a sage, it would be the essential archetype of a sage, capable of doing the typical things a sage could do. With Legends, you would summon the essential archetype of a specific entity from a certain point in time. Which makes sense. If you summoned the actual Legend, NIv-MIzzet (or whoever) would be bouncing around the Multiverse all the time to fight in all these battles. It also allows for two different representations of the same individual to summoned simultaneously, because they represent different periods in time. Hope that helps.

[@joshbailey7775]

Dinos are just Dargons without wings!

[@AetherHub]

So are wurms. Especially wurms!!

[@anthonysullivan5839]

Mors isn't dead why can't they make her a new story play antagonist

[@WTF-Cubing]

Wait… I just got the feeling there will be a battle between the Phyrexians and the Eldrazi. How epic would that be?!

[@obadijahparks]

Hey!...

[@galaxypig8168]

daaaaang

[@michaelgibson4663]

It really does seem like Wizards is dedicated to avoiding providing engaging story and lore for their sets now. The original elder dragons had novels and comics to back them and I think that is why I have an abiding love for them. The dragons from strixhaven are totally forgettable, no epic battle stories, no personalities, just some flavor text to scrape by on. Weak Wizards, you own freaking D&R, pretty sure you could give us a full story -_-

[@thekillers1stfan]

Watch Wizards change it to "Eldest Dragons" lol

[@MRDLT00]

0:57 And there was only 5! No retconing fucking Ugin in as Bolas’s twin brother bull shit! -_-

[@heliomaciel]

I’ll do you one better, Why Are Elder Dragons?

[@AetherHub]

WHEN ARE ELDER DRAGONS??

[@StormDunakin]

1st

[@nicholasdickson8698]

2nd

[@jasoncg2956]

@@nicholasdickson8698 3nd

[@gunmetal10]

I'm 1st!!!!!!

[@TheSpiritombsableye]

As long as elder creatures start with the letter D, I don't care.

[@TheSpiritombsableye]

Hmmm Elder Djinns.

[@TheArcSet]

Beware, the ferocious elder-donkey.

[@psy_p]

Elder deer

[@leviscott8802]

I can’t wait till we see some elder cats! Perhaps we could get a Dorothy, whose lived 8 lives, just saying it’s good design space, WOTC.

[@sethbennedetti753]

Another Boomer who doesn't like change. Different titles can mean different things on different planes.

[@Njzeo]

I mean sure. Skip the lore of elder dinosaurs.