What makes Fromsoftware Games so Special? | Tarnished Archaeology Special Episode

[@ThaneBishop]

"The world feels indifferent to you." - I feel like this is such a sleeper element of game design, at least when trying to design a world that feels lived in and alive. I don't think we often consider how artificial it feels for a world to be tailor made to the player, how things can only exist if they give some sort of actionability towards us. A world that largely ignores you feels counterproductive as a way to get people invested, feels like a mistake, but Elden Ring, and the entire Souls series, stands as a testament to its viability when done well.

[@coregod109]

They strike a great balance i think with their world being indifferent to your presence but then having myths and rituals like the chosen undead to give your existense meaning. The world doesn't care about you and doesn't revolve around you but the world does care about a chosen undead there have been countless before you and there will be countless after you but you fill in that role that ties you into the world.

[@Thirteen13551355]

It's basically the opposite of recent Zelda games, which feel more like a video game than any of the older entries.

[@Tridona]

Kenshi is like this too

[@retlr_]

@@TridonaRAHHH KENSHI MENTIONED

[@Solibrae]

I think it's important too that these worlds and characters can start to care about our presence, but we almost always have to make our mark on them first with our own actions. The fact that these games tend to be a bit more challenging or demanding than other Action RPGs goes hand-in-hand with this as well, since it's another reason why they can feel so rewarding to accomplish feats in.

[@Nebyulosity]

Much like how a monster you can't see will add more terror to a horror game, lore that is unspoken adds more depth to a world. FromSoft are masters at leaving those dark, vague gaps in the lore their worlds embody, without breaking the coherence of the lore that is spoken. It's those wonderful gaps where the minds of players can get lost wondering and wandering in what COULD be there.

[@sentientdogma1206]

Cringe

[@upsurge5541]

@@sentientdogma1206 balls

[@MegaLotusEater]

Is pretty cringe.

[@consolemans]

It can't be overstated that a dev that isn't chasing trends is having success by believing in what they make. Too many passionate people are under the thumb of publishers wanting to make the most money in the most focus tested way possible and it leaves a void of uncreativity. That something can work thanks to its passionate fans is a sign of hope that it doesn't have to be this way.

[@urameshi4725]

We're so lucky to have FromSoftware.

[@trequor]

Those people CHOSE to be under those publishers

[@viljamtheninja]

@@trequor Often because otherwise they would be unable to work in creative fields at all. Do you realize how difficult it is to be successful without big corpo backing? It's an understandable compromise if you at least want to work within you field of passion. But hopefully those big publishers will learn something from the success of FromSoft. Though that's unlikely, Hollywood rarely learns anything from the success of more experimental films - they only copy the superficial elements of it until it is done to death while still not allowing any real creative freedom. Which is probably what will happen with an increasing amount of Soulslike put out by more mainstream publishers.

[@MemeLordCthulhu]

​@@viljamtheninja I wonder if everyone is gonna copy armored core next, or if it'll just start a boom of mediocre mech games again that play too slow for me to give a shit.

[@CyroTheSpider]

Yup. Trying to appease the widest possible audience (for profit) is what makes a lot of modern games stale and boring. You have to be daring and be willing to turn off a lot of people to make something that's truly impactful and makes great art.

[@beckachuu]

thank you so much for including me in the video! I'm a big fan of your content so seeing myself in this video was a big surprise. Keep up the good work!!

[@tarnishedarchaeologist]

Happy you're here, thank you for your channel!

[@jocosesonata]

Oh nice! Neat to see you here.

[@somerandombub]

"Wait, it's all just well-done application of 'show, don't tell'?" Always has been.

[@zack_feldman]

Concerning Tolkien, I think it is good to note that his series did this same thing, obscuring most of the Worldbuilding and history, and letting the story progress from the perspectives of humble hobbits. The Silmarillion was published far later, after Tolkien’s death. So I think Lord of the Rings does the exact same thing…we are just spoiled…like we would be if thirty or forty years from now after his death, someone published Miyazaki’s notes and lore about his collected works. Don’t think he would let that happen though! Great video as always man!

[@aurallyinclined1092]

Should've scrolled down and read this post before I went and posted it again.

[@derpfluidvariant0916]

That's a really good point. With Tolkien, we are more aware of the World because we've read the DM's notes. With FromSoft, we don't get those, so we're locked into watching the magician and guessing at the narrative tricks.

[@Tsuba_Nick]

Came to the comments to write this, glad someone beat me to it and wrote it more eloquently than I could. I found TA’s way of speaking about Tolkien surprisingly ignorant as well. It’s good to praise creators who obscure and “erase” parts of the stories for us to interpret them based on other evidence or even our imagination. I love Dark Souls with all my heart but I have to say many plot threads in Dark Souls could be considered as incomplete whether it’s intentional or not. There is no reason to compare but it is ignorant to diminish the value of a scholar, a master of his craft who spent his whole life dedicated to creating a world characters and meanings about life and humanity that are so important to mankind. Arguably Tolkien touches on so many aspects from the value of humility, pity and mercy that FromSoftware neither has the capacity or medium to do so. I know TA’s intention wasn’t to devalue Tolkien, but both the statement about Silmarillion and the “greatest fantasy writer” comment about Martin felt just so out of place in such a well crafted video.

[@zack_feldman]

@@Tsuba_Nick well put!

[@derpfluidvariant0916]

@@Tsuba_Nick Part of the problem with discussing him these days is that His works basically work as the grandfather of all modern fantasy. It's to a point where even if you consciously step back and remember that the reason the tropes are so prevalent is because Tolkien is the genesis of the vast majority of them, you sub-consciously regard it as kinda basic. So much of the magic has been removed from the stories due to the overuse of the cards they tactfully played, through no fault of its own. The mystery of what an Elven City looks like or the novelty of Norse mythological races and their history is completely absent in comparison to the world the story was written in and for. We've read the notes and we looked up all the answers. The lingering questions are all solved now. It's also kinda in the same boat as Dragon Ball: a genre got really popular because it did something inventive, but because there's been so many iterations and spins on the ideas brought up by the original, it starts to feel lacking in comparison. And this is with LOTR and Middle Earth as a whole being much more carefully constructed and thought out as a setting, and as a narrative. The combined efforts of the presence of neatly documented notes and ideas of the author, and the contents of those notes being relatively common knowledge in the digital era makes them feel less deep in comparison to works that still have those notes under lock and key, or that were made with the internet in mind.

[@QuantumTelephone]

I know we give Miyazaki a lot of deserved credit, but Fromsoft had the deep lore uncaring mystery before he even hit the scene. The whole creative team and the keyboard clackers are truly what makes the final product what it is, lets be reakl

[@jarlwhiterun7478]

Reak!

[@dr_ubo]

Part of what makes King’s Field and subsequently all of Souls’ level design is the fact that some of the oldest veterans at the studios were architects and the first 3D renders they made were all intricate buildings. Hence the excellent and economical use of verticality in their games.

[@tarnishedarchaeologist]

Yeah, Aesir Aesthetics has some good video breakdowns of the pre-Miyazaki games, which I would recommend. We haven't played them so we can't comment. Your point is well taken, though.

[@jasonmendoza2044]

True, but similar to when Steve Kerr took over for the Warriors, obviously he had the talented team right there preceding him, but it was his leadership that made them truly great. I definitely get what you’re saying tho 🤙🏽 unfortunately the frontmen get the brunt and the praise whether fully deserved or not

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

Armored Core had a similar story design (I'm a fan of the OG AC, one of my first video games). That game was built around propaganda and each corporation telling the narrative that suited them best, and the real story was more complex than you would ever get from any one source.

[@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt]

My favorite type of historical document is the kind of deeply personal letter or journal that shows how fundamentally humanity does not change. The assyrian clay tablet containing a letter from a schoolboy to his mother complaining about his clothing and her apparent neglect for him. The journal of a 17 year old emperor of japan on receiving his first cat. I love those little snapshots of humanity in history

[@ТурбоКот-ю5у]

Where can I find that story about the cat?

[@fieuline2536]

I love your videos. I think three things set you apart for me: 1) These videos are beautifully produced. The music is gorgeous and appropriate. I remember you incorporated the dies irae, I think from Totentanz specifically, in a discussion of divine wrath and death, and it was gorgeous and subtle. I’m less familiar with most of your other musical choices, so I miss the direct references, but the music and editing WORK in a way that reflects thoughtfulness in your selections. Love this about you. 2) you are aware that you are CRAFTING a STORY based on the evidence present in the game, not just decoding a math problem to which there is exactly one right answer. Because of this, you’re willing to draw from sources that are pretty bold, to show parallels that the devs may or may not have had in mind. However, your theories are ALWAYS dramatic and interesting and enrich my experience when I go back to play. 3) you’re just so erudite in the connections you make. A good scholar is one who sees the distant but meaningful connections others miss, and you’re gold for this.

[@tarnishedarchaeologist]

Whelp, pack it up boys. We’ll never get a better compliment than this. Might as well retire.

[@sethk6311]

A love letter to TA: Your videos and analysis have deepened my interest in our own history and have deepened my personal faith in my own religion. Between you and Soulsbornekiroring, I have been influenced to “read the item descriptions of life” and read between the lines & to look at everything allegorically. My entire run of Elden Ring & your videos have completely changed my perspective on life and that is something that I never expected.. to have such a deep personal revelation from talks and theories centered around a video game. Thank you for the hard work you do. I don’t need to tell you that there is quite literally nobody else on KZbin like you.

[@Telepathic_Snail_Overlords]

I love seeing moments when people are genuinely touched. Awesome

[@dasninjastix]

From Soft are the masters of atmosphere. They blend their gameplay into their level design so well, even when I don't fully understand my character's motivation, I the player, want to delve further and further into the game. I love the freedom of From Soft game but I also love the constraints. I do think their limiting of the player's "power" ultimately drives skill building. But whereas other skill-heavy games don't have the same sort of mystique to keep you engaged enough to want to push pass your failures, From designs a world and aesthetics that really capture the imagination. Appreciate the video and all the content this year, this channel is exceptional and it's a joy to get an upload notification.

[@archangelgabriel5316]

First time Demons souls loaded up I was hoooooooooooooked.

[@bowichan2407]

Well said! I've never been a fan of hard games because my frustration tolerance is near nonexistent and i react pretty slow too. But elden ring had such a grip on me... I've pushed though just because i was so fascinated by this mystical, mythical world. And after i finished it a couple of times i decided to try out DS just to relive this experience of figuring out the weird and fascinating world. I don't think any other games would have me so intrigued...

[@idizzle8071]

I hope one day we can see the original writings GRRM wrote for Elden Ring. It would be so fascinating seeing Miyazaki’s changes

[@galaxsija4591]

Your explanation of myth becoming reality in demons souls is something that was completely lost on me when i originally played it. I dont think ive ever heard such a great explanation. You do amazing work, TA!

[@josephmcauley3305]

God damn man I had chills all throughout the final section of the video, well done!

[@jarlwhiterun7478]

Lol

[@themadgamer1217]

I was just thinking about this kind of thing a couple weeks ago - gaps are purposefully left in these games’ narratives and in-game histories, and how it must’ve been done purposefully. It’s almost like Miyazaki trusts us to do so, which, imo, is really cool.

[@ATC43]

It really is a huge level of trust Miyazaki and From's writers have with the community to continue to tell stories this way and I respect them all the more for it. So few writers, let alone video game writers, trust the reader/player to pick up on symbols and subtext. It's just incredible they're able to do so while also keeping the game's absolutely engaging for those who don't care to dig deeper into the worlds. Best Devs of the past 10-15 years.

[@Fullmetalnyuu0]

@@ATC43 This is why people can talk about these games 5, 10, almost 20 years after they've come out and still have something worthwhile to say - it's valuable to them economically for these games to continue to be interesting, but it's also so so valuable culturally to everyone who plays them, and who wants to learn more.

[@BurstVessels]

I had never made the connection that the Storm mantas AND the dragon god are sort of the mental projections of the local cultures' fear of gods and demons. BUT, I did notice that the demons in the original intro stills bear a strong resemblance to the "creature from the Id" in the classic film Forbidden Planet (the favorite film of George RR Martin), which is of course a similar mental projection.

[@RoozdenScoot]

The Shrine of Storms legend may be in part inspired by the real life Thunderbird of Native Alaskan and Pacific Northwest peoples. They would find whale bones at the tops of mountains (deposited there by the glaciers carving their way across the land during the last ice age) and quite reasonably come to the conclusion that the only way they could have gotten there was by way of some massive bird large enough to carry whales in the same way eagles carry salmon up to their nests.

[@jokerdony]

I want to say that I think this channel is the best at explaining the worlds of this game. It's amazing how so much from the environment can also explain what is happening even in the current time of the game. If there ever is a collab, I hope that you, Quelagg, Hawkshaw and Smoughtown can get together. All of you do an amazing job at explaining the different inspirations and it really brings the whole story and world into focus.

[@HeyGuy4321]

The best one is the one who describes the "color theory of elden fring"

[@charliecharliecharlie666]

Great video, as always! But, a note on your comment about The Silmarillion--that specific collection of Arda's history was published after Tolkien's death. His son, Christopher Tolkien, combed through his father's writing and tried to craft a comprehensive history of Arda. In doing so, he had to put aside the many different versions of each tale, which have slowly been published separately. Tolkien's body of work is more reflective of real world history because many of the legends in The Silmarilion have several different versions floating around and many tales were omitted from The Silmarillion. Canon is a shaky concept in Tolkien's legendarium, just as history in our own world is. In addition, Tolkien does choose to leave some mysteries unsolved in his writing--most famously, Tom Bombadil! As well as the nameless things that live far beneath Middle-earth and beings like Ungoliant. George R.R. Martin does the same. It's a mark of a good world-builder, to leave some questions unanswered. Apologies for this pointless info, the Tolkien scholar in me just couldn't help it haha.

[@SinHurr]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: My first time down that elevator to the Well, as the rocks split and the UNDERGROUND SKYLINE APPEARS, I said to myself, "there's a wholeass other game down here." Whoever storyboarded that shot deserves an Emmy.

[@christophercortez7191]

This is a point im often trying to make. People rag on these games because of HOW they tell their story. I think it’s probably the most true to life way of telling the story. All the item descriptions read as though they could end with the phrase “…or so it is believed”. As far as we know, or as far as SO AND SO SAID, this is the best knowledge about this or that that we have. Our own human history is a collection of the best we have. But theres probably lots of inconsistencies and BS mixed in the what we believe to be true may not be 100% the truth. Humans lie and humans are flawed, and that may translate to their writings. In these souls borne games (much like life) no one is just there at the ready to hand you super convenient exposition that just lays it all out. You have to work out the truth and interpret the information yourself. I get that its a video game but why does that mean that it MUST hold your hand? Why cant some games leave it to the player to find out the story if they give enough of a shit to do so? Thank you FromSoftware for having faith in its player base. The story and the world doesnt exist for you, it simply exists. It’s not there to make you feel special and significant. You exist to discover the significance of IT.

[@samf.s.7731]

The minimalist approach in terms of not choosing to disclose everything through an exposition dump and prioritizing environmental story telling not only works in case of From Soft's Soulsborne franchise, but it goes as far as elevating the actual narrative by getting everyone to discuss it from every possible angle and inspect it through the lenses of different scientific, philosophical, and artistic venues. In short, it's genius, it's classy, it works. This is not an easy feat, and I certainly don't recommend any other studio to try it out (Except maybe the studio behind Lies of P because they've been very solid so far). Then you have a game like Baldur's Gate 3, does the exact opposite, gives you a lot of everything.... And suceeds very much at being an excellent game. There's not a single right way about developing a game, and if people don't like FS's approach, that's fine. It's not wrong, just not their kind of thing. When something is competently made, you can easily tell 😆 When something is half baked, you can easily tell too. This approach to story telling is an artistic choice, not a deficiency. 😊 Plus, I've had the pleasure of experiencing a similar approach through GRRM's writing of Fire and Blood where he deliberately chose to make characters' stories "multiple choice". It was a genius approach to the whole thing IMHO because it gets you thinking, and not because you weren't given enough to work with, quite the opposite.

[@jasonmendoza2044]

Nah man the way they tell the story is one of the big things that keeps me forever engaged and in awe of these games. Unfortunately people just have vastly different opinions and will hate things for the same reason that you love it. But I’ll take a positive view over a negative one any day (negative ones usually reek of bias anyways)

[@SealableBags]

When I first discovered these games it was as if the “Fromsoft method” was an entire new genre to me that I hadn’t known could exist but was everything I ever wanted in fantasy storytelling. The level of mystery, the somber dying earth, and untangling the puzzle of how the world works and why is just irreplaceable to me. For those who are interested in works that have a similar “feel” in other mediums, the only thing I’ve found that scratches a similar itch is the wonderful books of Gene Wolfe. Highly highly recommend checking him out to any fans of this genre who are looking for an almost unfathomably deep story with layers of subtext and entire narratives hidden below the explicit text.

[@ghostgate82]

I think there are also a lot of parallels with the works of David Lynch, especially Twin Peaks.

[@Endra88]

Which book would you recommend? FromSoft has inspired my love for this kind of story telling so I have started writing my own fantasy novel. I would like to see how it is done in novel medium.

[@ATC43]

Dude...I have The Book of The New Sun Trilogy sitting in my bookcase right now. Youve just motivated me to finally start it. I picked it up on a recommendation for good fantasy but had no idea they scratched that From Software style storytelling itch. Thank so much for this comment!

[@ghostgate82]

@@Endra88 Try reading the Bible. It’s literally the same style of cryptic lore and the story unfolds through allusions and implications.

[@vijaybm9305]

@@Endra88 I dont know if you have ever heard of it but the Malazan series by Steven Erikson comes very close to a detailed fantasy world with lore crammed into every part of it. If read in release order, its very close to how elden ring handles lore. Comes with outer gods, vessels for gods and all kinds of creatures.

[@1337Figaro]

Miyazaki is one of the greatest geniuses of our time when it comes to worldbuilding and video games.

[@kylegonewild]

@@armandaneshjoo Pretty common thing that happened in the real world. Surrender was often met with savagery anyway.

[@jarlwhiterun7478]

Brown noser!

[@smurfie8412]

Nerd

[@buckyhurdle4776]

We will look back in decades and think to ourselves it was pretty lucky to be young when miyazaki was making games

[@justin8865]

What a great early Christmas gift. Happy holidays to whoever you are.

[@tarnishedarchaeologist]

FromSoft greetings to all!

[@NerdishNature]

Can’t overstate how much I appreciate your videos. The topics, the structure, the narration, the research. ❤

[@sneekmuch]

Question- The secret of the erdtrees first burn (one of your first videos on ER) at time stamp for THAT video is 9:35. You mention Melina’s failure and plot to burn the first erdtree but you say “That story is for another day.” Do you plan on still making that video or was it mentioned in a previous video I’m forgetting about

[@tarnishedarchaeologist]

We've touched on it briefly in other episodes, but are waiting until the DLC comes out to discuss Melina and the first burning more, since we're pretty sure there will be updated information.

[@blakebailey22]

MadLuigi made a really great point in his "Why Elden Ring Wants You To Struggle" video that can be applied to the FROMSOFT catalogue, it's that the struggle is integral to the experience. The struggle not only reinforces the atmosphere, not only reinforces the themes, but all of these elements also translate into the interactivity of the medium as well. This world is dangerous because characters say so, the world reflects it, and the gameplay makes you experience it. What made Dark Souls really resonate with depressed and suicidal people (like myself) was the whole "Don't you dare go Hollow" encouragement the game constantly gave you, something that is unfortunately lacking in Elden Ring.

[@marchmelloow]

Going through all of Elden Ring with most everyone hating on you, only to then fight Godfrey and have him respect you at every turn is such a great experience. As Miyazaki has said: a diamond shines brightest in a pile of trash. It's like the game praising you for getting to this point and respecting you for it. If you beat the game or not, by that point, all that matters is you persevered enough to get to the end. It's the journey that matters most, after all.

[@MigLMariano]

This page is great, and has given me a greater appreciation not only for these video games, but for our own human history. This has pushed me to follow some Archaeology KZbin pages and learn more about the "rich lore and backstory" of our real world

[@justhwsky]

The fromsoft games taught me, showed me, that there is much beauty in the tragedy, romance in the suffering. Always remember to keep struggling my siblings, you can’t comprehend the hole your absence creates, the world needs you, don’t go hollow.

[@Snoike]

As they say: Through action, a Man becomes a Hero Through death, a Hero becomes a Legend Through time, a Legend becomes a Myth And by learning from the Myth, a Man takes action

[@HeyGuy4321]

Screw 🪛 the actman.

[@CrispyGFX]

I can't tell you how much I love this channel. Thank you so much for existing.

[@tarek7135]

my mom proud of me since i wanted to become an archaeologist, she finna find out i mean in bloodborne🙏🙏🔊🔊😭😭💯💯💯

[@SystemBD]

You have to start somewhere.

[@christianwhalen9263]

3:54 If Bethesda made Elden Ring you would reach the bottom of the magical elevator (after a long loading screen) and would immediately find a dead body with a journal on it laying out exactly what this area is and what the end boss of the area will be

[@JohnDWJ]

Quality. One cannot deny true quality. These games have that intangible golden quality that inspires the heart, the mind, and the spirit. An alignment seldom seen in this day and age that seems to celebrate the mediocre. So many substandard things (stories, movies, music, entertainment), are held up as incredible. Yet in the end most of these things are like fast food. Yummy at first bite, but hollow and poisonous. And if those things are fast food… Fromsoft games are fine dining with three courses of the highest quality foods imaginable. We are starved these days for truly inspired (and inspiring) art and entertainment. Fromsoft creates that in all they do. It’s magnificent. And we are all deeply nourished for it!

[@sheepsheadbey]

ending gave CHILLS

[@ChanchoWins]

Hi! fantastic video once again! I'm very excited on you covering Dark Souls I because Dark Souls I has a lot of suprising common ground with Elden Ring. My favourite one is the parallel between Sellia Town of Sorcery and Oolacile. Sellian's Unseen Form and Unseen Blade spells match Oolacile's Hidden Weapon and Hidden Body. More over, Elden Ring's heretical Gravity sorceries also match Dark Souls Abyss Sorceries.

[@core-nix1885]

I love your vids buddy. Roundtable Hold seems like an Evergaol. Please look into V. by Thomas Pynchon if you want to better understand Velka, Marika and From's style and themes.

[@trequor]

HOLY TITS

[@redpandarampage2191]

The sheer amount of research is what makes them special. Everything has layers and layers of hidden meaning. I don't think even the biggest lore nerds are aware of the true scope of just how inspired these games are. Real history, geography, mythology, literature/fiction, science, etc.. I could go on, but it's clear that all of these subjects and more can be found in the roots of Fromsoft games, which is something that no other studio does- period. Sure, other great studios might excel at world building or lore or making great games in general, but I've never seen any of those studios evidence anywhere near the deep well of research and inspiration that Fromsoft does.

[@roies7756]

Man this channel really doesn’t get the recognition it deserves. It physically pains me to think how long I’ve been sleeping on this channel, and how manny people are sleeping on it right now. Imo your videos are by far the most interesting and unique ones about these incredible video games.

[@Senriam]

As an archeologist, I’ve been wanting to make a video like this for a long time. Thanks for making this, I feel heard in knowing that there are others who share my specific and unique love for these games.

[@chrissennfelder7249]

"All the details matter." (L. Freamon, The Wire) That's also true for FromSoft games. Things in their game worlds are there for a reason. They're not just some dumb items to be collected by the player, they almost always tell you something about the lore. I'm a huge history nerd, so naturally, I just love how FromSoft handles environmental storytelling.

[@deeplearningexplained]

Another fundamental aspect of the FromSoftware game is that the atmosphere never feels broken while you play it. Usually most games mess up the atmosphere portion in four ways: 1. the death of the player shouldn't happen, but does. When this happens the player get yanked out of the atmosphere. Souls game fix that by blending the deaths as part of the core story. 2. the world is supposed to feel alive, but feel hollows in the process. This one is counter intuitive, but making something feels alive is very damn hard to program. Any player that sit in the same spot long enough will start to see holes in the atmosphere with NPC doing random stuff. It's much easier to mask this by having a "world is in ruins" type of atmosphere, which fromsoft use again and again. The only game I've seen pull that out properly was Majora's Mask and how they cleverly done it was that there are 3 days and all NPCs are programmed to do a routines for these days. Having a player look at the world and notice the NPCs doing the same thing loops after loops is part of the atmosphere. 3. you can continue playing after the game is finished. Usually, this is where the game will start to feel more and more empty as all dialogue slowly gets maxed. Souls game fix the need for more by allowing the player to just go through another loop of the game instead of letting them wander through the finished game. With the last titles though this isn't true anymore, but in DS1 if you get to the end it's done and you need to start over. 4. all the lore is explained from start to finish. Fromsoft never does that.

[@airiquelmeleroy]

It's always a joy to see fresh takes on fromsoft lore. It is my hopeful belief, that after even after voluntarily omiting a piece of world building, because they are consistent with it, vestiges and implications remain within other related elements they decided to show the players. So even if, for example, the roundtable holds nature was hidden from us, clues about its nature remain within the game to find, even if the developers didn't want to. So imagine you make a story, and want to hide that an important family figure is actually a bastard daughter. Of course, first step, never show or point this out in any way. However, if, for example, because she was a bastard daughter, she was isolated within her family, disowned by their father, and despite being part of the family, she didn't inherit some kind of special power from their lineage? Do you remove those elements as well, in order to hide her origins? Or do you let them in anyways? What about her true mother? Do you remove her from the story as well? Eventually, if you remove enough "related" elements that hint what you were trying to hide, you are left with nothing at all. This means there is hope, that we have enough info to infer some of the things that have been hidden... and possibly infer more things from those... etc I love it

[@trequor]

It's like running Dungeons and Dragons. The players will only ever see 10% of what a Dungeon Master prepares. But the DM needs to know the answers to questions never asked. THAT is what brings the game world alive

[@user-vl7nu5pr2e]

You guys absolutely nailed it! Only one constructed criticism: If you are going to talk bout Demons Souls, try to use footage from the Original game. The developers of the remake, Bluepoint, didn't care at all about the narrative and artistic elements that you fantastically make explicit in this video.

[@viorp5267]

I think it;s the feet and poison swamps. but for real, I think it's becauset he games never really tell you anything the only things put into obvious spiotlight are ones that don't answer questions make you ask them, but then as if predicting said questions they prompt in you when you look you will find crumbs leading to satosfactory answers or at least hints

[@kaptenrotskjeg]

I started following you for the soulsborne lore i would sleep to, but the more i watch the more i want to make see you make real history (and philosophical content or the meta discussion of history) as you here. I love the way you tell stories and explain things i didnt know i was curious about. Please make more

[@liamhollands344]

🎶 Well I think I've seen about everything, when I've seen a manta ray fly! 🎶

[@Didymus20X6]

3:10 - Cue the Sloshy: "We don't even really care - WE DON'T EVEN REALLY CARE - ABOUT YOOOOUUU!"

[@daniell1483]

As someone who wants to write, understanding the genius of other artists helps influence other artists. Seeing worldbuilding this complex is just really a good way to get creative juices flowing.

[@glockenspeel5326]

That ending was perfect, I felt a tingle up my spine. I played Dark Souls back in 2011 after a mate suggested it while I was playing Skyrim. While I loved that game for immersing me in the lore through all the countless books of precise exposition, Dark Souls was the flip side of that fantasy coin; it gave me everything and yet nothing but my curiosity, imagination and wonder. I finished the game and thought oh, that’s it. How wrong I was. 13 years later I’ve finished Elden Ring and loved every moment of it. A more recent friend started his souls’ gaming experience by playing Elden Ring and, after hearing about how good Dark Souls is, he’s gone back to try it and is playing through it for the first time. How envious I am, yet it’s a joy to see his reactions to getting cursed or getting lost in the depths. He loves how interconnected the world is and it takes me back to when I first played it in 2011. A true beauty of a game. I’m thrilled you are going to add to the hours of lore content I’ve watched over the years and cannot wait to see what unique takes you will unearth. Thank you :)

[@joeking6972]

Thank you for these sentiments! They perfectly reflect my own opinions of the world building in these games. Most of what we know of our own history exist either as fragments or as extremely biased/limited perspectives.

[@jandeiification]

Wow... clicked "subscribed" button. You Sir, convinced me to be a follower. Fromsoftware (miyazaki) are great story tellers, like of those in the ancient times...

[@gr33dl0cknein3]

A word of caution: Bluepoint heavily tampered with Demon's Souls artistic vision when making the Remake, so any "archeology" can only be done with the original game.

[@miirshroom]

It's actually kind of fascinating as an example. Of how remakes corrupt the original by picking and choosing what elements to transfer over based on a new set of aesthetics that overwrites the original subtext.

[@alenezi989a3]

That's very beautiful, and gives a pretty good explanation of why the lore and story of these games is so compelling.

[@nobody2416]

Good video! Shows three different but great examples!

[@CesarTorres13]

Excellent essay. Please let us know when you will drop your next one

[@fhbaynes]

These are some of the best videos about Elden Ring on KZbin

[@Guided-By-Boognish]

Man, i hope miyazaki watches these vids and smiles

[@athelise]

As an absolutely massive fan of the Silmarillion and its associated works: u right

[@IggyTthunders]

Characterizing 'The Silmarillion' as "tedious" isn't just brutal it's cruel: bc the "tedious compendium" wasn't even written by Tolkien himself; he was dead when Chris gathered all of his father's notes to piece the epic together. If it reads like multiple outlines for multiple events and stories shuffled into a linear timeline, that's precisely bc it is. It's also a bit of fanboy hubris to hand wave the clear and obvious bedrock of both George's and Miyazaki's world building, like Tolkien didn't singlehandedly invent epic fantasy* as a genre of modern fiction; hilariously to facilitate his love of etymology and oh-so Anglo infatuation with Beowulf and the Kalevala. I'd even go so far as to suspect that hubris is weebish in origin, a knee jerk reaction to enjoying a deeply cherished but niche philosophy of eastern game design. That said, it's still a compelling love letter, as always. Inspiring me to stop and stare more carefully at the lands between.** *Lord Dunsany's 'King of Eflland's daughter' was certainly a blueprint, but Tolkien married the ominous spectacle of Dunsany's fantasy with his inimitable historicity, refining the concept of a world alien but familiar and oh-so very old and dangerous. **Ex. In stormveil the velvet red hood you pick up in the room off to the side of the scion's banquet hall? That was from Rodericka's house servants, probably a hand maid. It's sitting on top of a pile of wrapped bodies awaiting to be hung, butchered and grafted. I just noticed that detail yesterday.

[@MinimusMaximus]

As a fan to ancient human civilizations ,mysteries, myths and a souls games veteran. Sir I dunno who tf is vatividia, but you are the only youtuber to continuously gather and talk about all the stuff i like in a single video. Always something interesting Always something newer and better. Mad respect 🙌🏻

[@najiteachebo7795]

Beautifully put, thank you so much!

[@bpopa27]

Excellent choice of background music, and,it goes without saying the content of the video as a whole

[@wpb5876]

Beautifully put. Fromsoft are masters of world building and indirect storytelling, it makes exploring the game world even more compelling and rewarding. Coupled with great (and tight) game mechanics, interesting enemy/boss designs and amazing music

[@jacobscott2473]

Dark Souls is the Jazz of video games, it's all about the lore you don't tell.

[@roundninja]

I think ancient people were generally smart enough to understand that manta rays were sea creatures. If you live near the sea, you probably subsist partially if not mostly on seafood, meaning you're very familiar with how sea creatures look and smell, and might have even seen manta rays swimming in the ocean. You're also familiar with dead fish and whatnot washing up on land, especially after storms. However, if manta rays aren't native to a region, you might not see them much aside from the biggest hurricanes, or other unusual circumstances in weather patterns and ocean currents, so I think it's possible that a myth might develop of manta rays as some kind of special omen of storms and disasters, related to but distinct from regular sea creatures. I feel like it would have taken a long time for the myth to develop into giant flying manta rays, but then again, the world of Demon's Souls is pretty fantastical, so the theory doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to me.

[@alfredthegreat01]

I sincerely hope that if you ever decide to cover Demon's Souls in the future that you avoid the remake, unless its just for footage. Not only is the overall art style changed quite drastically in many areas, there are numerous environmental details, both big and small, that are either removed or replaced with something different made by developers that did not have any greater knowledge of the lore of the game beyond what is already presented within it. Nobody at FromSoft had any input or was consulted when making these changes. You even showed one of these changes in this very video while praising From's world building: the collapsed medieval statues in the Dragon God temple at the end of the tutorial. Those weren't there in the original game, so they should be disregarded by anyone trying to understand From's vision for the game's lore.

[@unknowndummy9387]

This was super well put. I always loved mythology and theology from various world religions. It always seemed like a way to understand how we as humans respond to the puzzling world around us. From’s games are the first fictional worlds where I have been as invested in learning about the myths and depths of the world as if it were real.

[@adamredbeard5232]

This dude is underappreciated. I love these videos!

[@coreyrachar9694]

I wish tarnished archeologist was my dad.

[@theatlascomplex2052]

I’m still waiting for a Tarnished Archaeology video on the Four Belfries. What are the skulls looking at? I need to know!

[@Eldagusto]

Interesting Storm King theory for Demons souls!

[@gwynbleidd1917]

You described the job of a historian as archeology. Archeology isn't about building narratives, it's about finding artifacts. And good historians try as best they can to tell history as objectively as they can, despite everyone having biases.

[@swinnyuk6584]

Personally, I think there’s a nuance to what you were saying at the start: FromSoft stands against you in order to, paradoxically, stand with you. Their indifference to you, in other words, is for your benefit, ultimately. The games are full of examples of this from top to bottom, but a simple demonstration of this is the lack of maps/mini-maps/waypointing. By not holding your hand and telling you exactly what to do in step by step form, they leave space for exploration, discovery and player expression. This adds a lot of depth to the experience, right? And so, by “standing against you”, they stand with you. Great video. Thanks!

[@donotreadthis26]

I kinda hope they one day just release the entirety of lore text they removed from elden ring (and presumably all the other soulsbirne games aswell) and just give us the full picture as the writers created it.

[@danielrojas-db9nq]

Yes I've heard how its done. All the hidden lore creates atmosphere. Its like an invisible network that connects everything and at the same time creates the "mood of the place" an author writes like 500 of story pages, then he cuts 250, the missing pieces, persons, places, become lost lore, and then people get very obsessed trying to fill those holes, making them like co authors of the story. It like the writer secret technique.

[@beansnrice321]

Woo, props Emmalition! =D

[@droka1564]

Thank you for perfectly describing what I had trouble putting into words: fully detailed worlds are TEDIOUS

[@Dracoboss98]

Legend has it, Elden John has existed for so long, that he remembers when rock was young.

[@SinHurr]

"What if Tokein had depression?" Dark Souls!

[@malbhet]

I have crazy theory, so hear me out. What if those statues are Miquella. My theory is this, Miquella subconsciously traveled to the past, the same way the player does in Farum Azula. If you look at the full statue, its feet are growing from a tree, which Miquella inbeded himself in the Haligtree. The only character in the lore to ever think of doing that, while having the knowledge equivalent to an astrologer, would be Miquella. I believe Miquella's soul found its way to the past through the power of dreams and the Haligtree, and he could possibly be the one who started everything, and he is probably waiting for the player to travel to the past in order to fix everything. This was just my thought, I could be way off though, but everything I said is very possible, especially given that statues arm looks very similar to Miquella's arm sticking out of the cacoon.

[@DreamskyDance]

For how ever this may sound weird... but Dark Souls games and Elden Ring are only games that i have a feeling like i dreamed them in retrospective. Not exactly being immersed in the world, like you do with some games, not exactly realistic world that you can make parallels with reality, but really the memory of those games and the feeling and vibe when playing them again is the same vibe and atmosphere and quality as the memory of some dreams i had ( and i am a pretty frequent lucid dreamer so i am used to differenced between memory of a dream and reality ). I dont know why, maybe because they have kind of a real world logic fundamentals but then they wildly veer off but not exactly in "video-gamey" way every time so it creates that feeling, maybe because of all subtitle details that your subconscious picks up on and your experience is deeper that you think, maybe because of storylines and lore that are very elusive and you have only bits and pieces to connect it all...maybe all of the above or something different. But they really managed to make a unique art-style within gaming medium.

[@neveruploadonlywatch]

You're doing dark souls archaeology!! I wonder what aspects you gonna tackle that the community haven't already...I cannot wait to see.

[@Talvofdal]

Incredible videos, simply amazing. Thank you.

[@DavidStavis]

4:38 "...but the careful observer" - who happens to have the right university education - "will see the story there all the same."

[@_Bunger_]

It’s cause there’s so many cuties like Solarie,Anri,Seigward and Blaidd

[@HeevaEgo]

It’s quite a genius technique for storytelling that people praise Tolkien for but bash Miyazaki for. For example, LoTR’s story hinges on the basis that the main characters (hobbits) are mostly unfamiliar with the outside world. They’re simply on a journey. They are meant to be conduits for the Readers. Lord of the Rings story IS its lore. The main story is literally just “take the ring of power to mordor, and burn it”. But the world and lore is what makes the story interesting A similar example on a Miyazaki’s end, because of the ‘Ring’ motif, is Elden Ring. The base story is on a similar level of complexity to LOTR: “Grace guides you to mend the shattered Elden ring, and become Elden Lord”. Quite a simple concept for the main story. But what makes ER’s story complex is the world and lore you uncover as you progress. The main player character and the Hobbits each share a similar quality: they are all particularly characterless in order to function as a placeholder for the Players/readers to step in their shoes I see the argument “Story =\= Lore”, but I STAND BY THIS: Miyazaki’s Worldbuilding IS his story. His games stories are literally BASED upon a collection of mythology and history that is to be uncovered. Theyre unironically glorified Dark-Fantasy Detective stories. Why do people critique Miyazaki’s storytelling but praise Tolkiens?? They’re practically the same thing, albeit with less approachable characters in Miyazaki’s case

[@lordofchaosinc.261]

Cicero could fill a whole game with his item descriptions tbh. With from they write 100% then erase 90% where others just do the 10% but the results are not equal.

[@dimentoplexitronum4923]

I know it’s just a throwaway line and I do agree with the point about real human history being different than wiki-logged objective lengthy fictional history, but JRRT and The Silmarillion is a bad example. Tolkien started from th beginning with the idea the stories were translations of probably biased historical texts

[@NightDocs]

How do you even construct a world like these

[@yetanotherbassdude]

Only thing I'd disagree with in this is your line about Miyazaki and FromSoft not caring if you find all the lore. They absolutely want it all to be found eventually, they just want to make it rewarding to explore their world and find out for yourself. I also feel that cut content is very often done more as a way to leave room for the players' interpretations if those players care enough about the world to create them.

[@jakelee8789]

Absolutely amazing man, great job 👏😊

[@michaelbowen1838]

In regards to the divine tower video, there is a script of sorts found. Around the red meteorites and doors are series of pictographs that could be a language of sorts.

[@Icarusfell007]

Why isn't everyone liking this masterpiece?!

[@colddash5598]

I wonder if there is a time that the gag order on RR Martin will be loosened and he will be willing/able to tell us how right or wrong we are…Miyazaki/Fromsoft have done well at only ever hinting at what is correct and what we have missed. 🤔

[@trequor]

I greatly expect that GRRM will expire before his NDA does... hey maybe the contract is based on Winds of Winter getting published 😂

[@benlavis3006]

You guys don't need to worry about caring too much. These games are beyond entertainment and soaring into works of art that can easily rival any painting or statue. The fact that we then get to have even more of that piece of art is amazing. I love every video you guys put out, love the idea behind this 😁

[@jarlwhiterun7478]

Pretentious

[@jacksonbenincosa3759]

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful!!!

[@mikedelgrande5296]

I wonder if we could crowd fund a bribe to try and get George to talk? How much would it take to get him to spill the beans? I need to know what happened!

[@jarlwhiterun7478]

It's called an nda, educate yourself

[@alyseleem2692]

Can't wait! (I remember sending you some of my notes on the matter,but if you didn't see em,don't worry. I'll be writing them down again when the time comes) Rest in peace, my boy Artorias; being Chosen Undead is enough legend for me. On a more serious note, people really underestimate the effect of the Chosen Undead in Dark Souls history; like the three(originally four) fires ritual of the Farron Legion(who likely revere the Chosen Undead for beating the Four Kings, linking the Fire and driving the Dark away in the process), or the very idea of a Lord Of Cinder as we know it(as in, you don't have to be a god; just strong enough!).

[@morgoth9590]

Awesome awesome video and I can’t wait for your Dark Souls Archaeology ! I loved your thoughts on Demons Souls as well.