What makes Heart the greatest dungeon crawler in years? RPG Review

[@keithhinder7042]

This channel isn't good for me. I just ordered the book and YOUUUU made me do this 3 times already.

[@AsTheOceansBurn]

Lol! I should take this as a warning. However… I didn’t listen.

[@RageKnight-kg5qn]

😂

[@KarlBarbosa]

I have been on the fence about buying Heart for a long time. It's pretty much Schrodinger's RPG for me. It shows up at my LFGS once in a while when I'm not thinking about it, but when I do want to pick it up, it's conspicuously absent, and I sincerely question whether it was ever real in the first place.

[@DaveThaumavore]

It’s not real. I’m part of the conspiracy that’s gaslighting you.

[@rasin9391]

sounds like an experience a player would have in heart!

[@rasin9391]

I have only read this book on anyflip so far and I will 100% buy. Alone the classes look soo fun.

[@alejotm000]

While I loved the setting and art, I just don't find the book to be that useful. For a game that's meant to be based off improvisation from the GM's side, there's a huge lack of random tables and other similar tools to make it easy to come up with stuff on the fly. The only way I see this game played is by a GM that dedicates a huge amount of time to carefully crafting their own version of The City Beneath. I wanted to love this game and got all the supplements and material released to it, but I just don't see myself ever playing it. I say this as the forever GM though, I'd LOVE to play in a campaign ran by someone else.

[@TheDungeonDive]

Glad I read this comment. Lack of random tables is an instant no buy for me, as I’d primarily be playing solo or co-op. Thank you.

[@alejotm000]

@@TheDungeonDive yeah it was a huge surprise to me to find this sort of game not having a single random table. I mean sure, I could take the list of all locations and make my own, but then again I can do that with about anything else. I also bought it with solo play in mind, but it's simply not possible, without tons of work from your side. Love your channel, by the way!

[@feruspriest]

I'm working on translating all the classes into discrete Paths/classes/items for the Index Card RPG. Heart characters start out more powerful than most d20 starting heroes, so you couldn't begin play with all the potency of a Heart character, but each Heart class presents a lovely bundle of new abilities and possible equipment for more developed dice systems with loot tables. Use Index Card RPG, Into the Wyrd and Wild, Cess and Citadel, and you can play Heart's themes and vibes with *way* more robust mechanics.

[@thecarrotclarinet]

Also quick correction! A landmark is jist defined as a place where things are more stable but it doesn't always need to be populated by people to be more stable than a delve!

[@DaveThaumavore]

Thanks! I've put that in an errata in the pinned comment. 😀

[@Oðrun]

I considered Spire because of your previous review, but Heart interested me enough to purchase the book. Thanks for that.

[@Rey99m]

You are the best rpg reviewer of youtube

[@DaveThaumavore]

Thanks, Rey!

[@TheTwyker]

RR&D is such a powerhouse of a publisher at this point, they even have Minerva McJanda and Zachary Cox on staff now.

[@richardextall2002]

I've gotta say it again - this is an excellent review. Music in the background is also a nice touch.

[@DaveThaumavore]

Thanks, Richard!

[@paavohirn3728]

Wow! Mind blown with all the rpg stuff created these days. Your review once again really brings out the creative genius of this book.

[@tariqkhawaja2720]

Love this I got heart recently and loved your breakdown of it, I’ll definitely dive deeper into the landmarks and adversaries section now!

[@DaveThaumavore]

That’s where a lot of the magic is!

[@propavery]

I've had this game for a year and your video has made me want to Campaign to get my group to play it all over again!

[@richardextall2002]

Another great review. Clear, thorough and no nonsense.

[@rudesthazard5769]

Don't act it out? Nah. Imma do it. That beautiful Gimli/Legolas style dynamic of begrudging respect and character growth can't happen if settings keep bowdlerizing themselves.

[@TheSimpleMan454]

Bowdlerize! That's the word I was looking for. See also the fact that telling your GM "Oh, there are evils in this world alright! But you can't see them or show them to players at all, and players can't engage with them at all..." makes one wonder why they get brought up at all. Suppose I just wanted to mention I hate blueberries. So another problem is that too many systems don't want to use hitpoints or damage anymore. Not a single tangible consequence to the dangers of the world. Player characters can "die" such as it is, but rolling the dice and dealing and taking damage make the threat of death in other systems direct and immediate. This whole "stress" thing, especially since it's shared by the party, doesn't convey that urgency. This is actually why the authors want players to avoid combat.

[@rudesthazard5769]

@@TheSimpleMan454 Yeah. Removing conflict. Disallowing villains to actually be villains, beyond being one dimensional mustache twirling cartoon characters. Treating each other like we're fragile and "in danger" at the table? Laying out lists of what amounts of sensitivity training or pod people instructions for doing everything but avoiding the one thing that works: Simply openly communicating with each other and setting expectations. Like, it's such a sad state of affairs. People can no longer trust each other to tell reality from fiction. That writing about or exploring a topic through roleplay isn't the same as condoning it. It's the old "video games cause violence" argument repackaged as "videogames cause bigotry" Same stuff. Different decade. Same moral puritans too, more or less. The hobby is huge now, there's still lots of crunch out there. But, yeah. There is a strange growing emphasis on removing the G pillar from RPG and leaning heavier into RP. Crunch has become a dirty word lol.

[@ironnoodle7992]

Hate being that guy, but Best Cover Art and Best Interior Art were Silver awards not Gold. Still very impressive. Hard to believe any product can have so many awards and not be product of the year.

[@ThePagewalker]

Stumbled on to this. Very clean presentation and concise review. My buddy who's big into 5e, Blades in the Dark, and Into the Wyrd and Wild will love this game.

[@Weremushroom]

I’ve owned this game and all of the main expansions as well as the ichor drowned home brew ((yeah go look that expansion up it’s dope, you’re welcome)) and this is the most helpful like, clarification and easy to digest break down of the rules which are pretty lose to start with. Will be sharing this with new players going forward haha

[@kurga9790]

Great review, as usual. Heart/Spire game engine is fantastic to run narrative cessions, adapting it to dungeon crawl is kind of weird. I wonder if the game plays as well as it reads. The tone is bit too serious for my taste though.

[@bAtACt1X]

I read into Spire a little. Isn`t it basicly the "Apocalypse" engine?

[@kurga9790]

​@@bAtACt1X Well it's a player facing game with degree of success rolls too, but it uses a d10s pool system similar to the ezd6 or powered by the dark engine (if that's helping), in short you're not always rolling 2d6 like in PbtA, you're adding/subtracting d10 depending on your skills/attributes/circumstances/difficulty. Check Dave Thaumavore review of Spire for more details here kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJ2mfYetpd-IebM

[@paulh3892]

Great review! This game is REALLY evocative. Might have to pick it up

[@jessegoonerage3999]

Not a fan of the dice system. But the overall theme and aesthetic is pretty cool.

[@trash9056]

It's not for everyone, but it certainly is something that grew on me

[@feruspriest]

Ran a Heart campaign. I would *not* recommend it. Their conflict resolution system is not robust enough. I suspect RR&D's forthcoming title, Hallows, presents a better system for something like Heart. I love what Heart wants to evoke, but the designer's advice to run a game (suggesting folks not prepare in advance, for example), the narrow conflict resolution system, and the end of play always being death makes Heart feel like a half finished concept piece.

[@Zkeleton969]

There is nothing more metal in an rpg than an ability that says “to activate this ability, die.”

[@seantaylor8114]

This has a huge Darkest Dungeon energy to it, I love it

[@MrRourk]

You have to try In the Company of Delvers. It's really something when the players realize the dungeon is just there and the real game is the Company Intrigue.

[@Eric998765]

I like the sound of the vibe and unique classes. Might have to give this a go

[@Rathammergames]

Great review! However I'm running this on my channel and find it difficult to reward players. There are no magic items table or artifacts, which I'm taking from Mork Borg.

[@Allvaldr]

Definitely deserved awards for their art and stuff, but I agree with other posters below that it really falls flat once you get it on the table. I too was very inspired by reading the book, but it just isn't a good game. It doesn't offer the GM any of the tools neededed for the game they expect you to run, and while it leans in on horror elements it has watered those down with zero consequences for the player characters. Where's the horror then? Basically, I love the book but hate the game. And in a way it's making me seriously reconsidering if I should give any weight to the Ennies in the future. Do they even play RPGs before they hand out awards, or do they read the book in their salon?

[@twistedturns65]

Need to run Heart and Spire some day. So many games, so little time.

[@lilcthulhu8065]

Such a good and (mostly) spoiler free review I used it as a primer for my players 👍.

[@megasquidd]

Nice review, Dave. Is this the video you said you ended up dunking in the OSR a lot? I didn’t pick that up if you did.

[@DaveThaumavore]

Good.

[@evrypixelcounts]

It's like Darkest Dungeon but a TTRPG, dope.

[@7SevenClips7]

Like and comment for the YT algorithm. Thank you for your work, Dave.

[@estelaplateada4]

Wait, is this using the Darkest Dungeon artist? Great review!

[@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel]

I actually got to try out HEART and was thoroughly disappointed. This was an award winning system and it was just kinda... meh. In my opinion, it has a few core problems. Let's start with the biggest one. Fallouts and death: The fact that fallouts can stack infinitely makes them a bit silly, if your character keeps gathering them. And getting the same fallout a second time makes it feel very boring and artificial. And you will, because there aren't that many. Because fallouts stacking doesn't put you closer to a limit or anything like that, it never feels like your character is in any danger. And they aren't. Only you can decide for your character to die. It's a giant dungeon of death, where you never feel like anything is actually at stake. A horror game where nothing can actually threaten you. Depending on how lucky or unlucky a character is, you can end up with someone having about 8 fallouts and it's a joke, rather than a burdening consequence. Customization: Once you've played a playbook/class, there is really not much mechanical difference if you pick it again. At most you can change the order in which you take the same 20 or so abilities. And even then, many of them are just "Gain +1 on X". So mechanically, there is very little room to customize your character. Setting: There isn't one. This is the biggest problem: the Heart has everything in it. Everything. And this makes it difficult to connect with anything, because you know that it's all just random stuff, anyway. Not to mention how much the horror of a setting can suffer, once you encounter the "hairdresser spider", "mirror dimension", "people eating houses" and stuff like that. Strategy: There is no strategic gameplay. A very, VERY basic form of resource management is as good as it gets. Other than that, the only strategy in the game is: "let others approach challenges, so they get to suffer stress instead of you". Beats: Possibly the biggest hit to replay value and restraint on storytelling in general. There are certain story beats that have to be met and this means that the story HAS to involve these story elements. And since you usually have almost all Callings in a group, get ready to have the same plot points repeat again and again and again, with each group. All in all, it's an okay game, it can be fun and its dice system is at least a bit more complex than a PBTA one, allowing for more difficult challenges, but I definitely wouldn't consider it award winning or even all that good. I played it in several groups and have no desire to play it again. And judging from the Discord's LFG section, that seems to be the experience of most people. A whole bunch of GMs trying it for the first time, running it for a few sessions and then never coming back to it.

[@thedungeonphilosophers-pen5602]

interesting comment - I have never heard of HEART and was intrigued - now I distance myself from it. Do you have a better, more strategically oriented alternative system you would recommend?

[@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel]

@@thedungeonphilosophers-pen5602 Well, that depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for a narrative game with strategic focus, my favourite would be Legend of the Five Rings 5e. It has a very interesting mechanic which combines both personality and character traits with skills to equate how good your character is at doing something. The combat can drag a bit, but all in all, I love that system. The lore is really tight and a great aid in giving players a common reference for what's going on and an instant help in building interesting character dynamic, when your very background already gives you expectations towards how to feel concerning your group members. Only problem is that it attracts a lot of weebs who only play it because it plays in a fantasy variation of feudal Japan, rather than for the system and tone, as well as a few munchkins who are determined to break the system. If you specifically want a horror game with strategic mechanics, you would probably best stick to Call of Cthulhu, I have not found anything that can top it in that category, so far. And if you only want narrative and roleplay... well, then I would say: just play whatever PBTA game, whose setting seems the most appealing to you. They play mostly the same and generally do a good job at cutting down on time spent on mechanics, rather than roleplay.

[@thedungeonphilosophers-pen5602]

@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel Thank you so much for the competent answer. I really have to dig into L5R in the 5e edition, I stumble over it every month! I just bought Symbaroum 5e because I really like the Free League Games but don't have enough time to play them (Covid being the main problem here). Call of Cthulhu is planned (probably in a GURPS variant - as we love the system) PBTA - I have to try out, thanks for insight!

[@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel]

@@thedungeonphilosophers-pen5602 Sure thing, glad I could offer some advice :)

[@himurogentoku7117]

Thank you so much for your insight here, C. Out of all the things you mention, i couldn't agree more with your opinion on the Beats. It is a great concept that helps the GM on prep but the list on each Calling in HEART does get repetitive after some time. I sounds a bit redundant previously but good judgements, C.

[@richardextall2002]

Please do a video on the landmarks 😉

[@DaveThaumavore]

😵‍💫

[@hunters1179]

Nice, I heard of heart but never got into reading whats its about. Thank you. Out of curiosity where I should I go to ask for you to review an rpg? I'm assuming its your patreon.

[@DaveThaumavore]

Can you explain what "pattern on an rpg" means? My English is not very good.

[@hunters1179]

@@DaveThaumavore Sorry auto correct on my phone. I meant to do a review on rpgs

[@DaveThaumavore]

@@hunters1179 ah. I just review things I like, or via sponsorship on occasion.

[@hunters1179]

@@DaveThaumavore oh okay. So i guess I can't give any recommendations?

[@DaveThaumavore]

@@hunters1179 People leave recommendations in the comments all the time. Fire away!

[@feruspriest]

Amazing.

[@Slydeish]

Another great game setting and framework and idea ruined by abysmal dice systems. Absolutely fantastic review, it’s a shame they are better writers than they are game mechanic designers. That being said, this book will absolutely make its way onto my shelf, it has value and great unusual ideas. Side Note: The Delve system is absolutely genius for the point to point crawl type game. They do that extremely well.

[@SrTupac]

What other games do you recommend where you have a pointcrawler starting from a base and also have a detailed world? My mind goes to UVG

[@K_E_Robin]

Sounds like real a cool game!

[@DaveThaumavore]

Support the channel by joining my Patreon! www.patreon.com/thaumavore Sign up for my newsletter! bit.ly/ThaumavoreNewsletter ERRATA: A landmark is defined as a place where things are more stable but it doesn't always need to be populated by people to be more stable than a delve.

[@spider00x]

Dave you need some sound dampening panels vocals are unusually echo'y

[@alseenei8072]

4:20 They made high elves racist but don’t want me to make a racist high elf character?

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Or have race do anything in game why even iput them in the book besides fluff?

[@TheSimpleMan454]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough It fills page space, and it's an established trope. And the authors think "Elf" is synonymous with "Aryan", which is of course absurd, but there ya go. That's why the Elves are racist by default by the way.

[@alseenei8072]

@@TheSimpleMan454 Pretty sure calling all elves aryan is racist. Tsk tsk, author

[@alderaancrumbs6260]

I’m pretty sure all these races are pretty racist. I do notice that the “racist elves” are white and the oppressed elves are black. 🤔

[@kalleendo7577]

Awesome!

[@argophontes]

Here's the link for Dave's Spire review: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJ2mfYetpd-IebM

[@WillCalwell]

What is OSR? Thanks.

[@malcomalexander9437]

Old School Roleplaying. In the style of the first and second editions of DnD.

[@himurogentoku7117]

Are Spire and Heart combineable, Dave, guys?

[@trash9056]

There is a conversion from Spire to Heart called Burned and Broken. I don't think there is a similar cross compatibility for Heart into Spire, as that wouldn't make too much sense. Vermissian Black Ops is sorta also like a Spire-ish mission system for divulging into the Vermissian network system.

[@himurogentoku7117]

@@trash9056 I understand, perhaps only combinable through the fluff and lore yeah. I am on verge of just getting both to be honest Rash. Hahaha. Which one do you prefer between SPIRE and HEART yourself Rash?

[@trash9056]

@@himurogentoku7117 I much prefer Heart, but I really enjoy Spire also. The mechanics are very similar since they run off of the Resistance System, but I enjoy the point-crawl nature of Heart much better.

[@himurogentoku7117]

@@trash9056 I see. Thanks for the recommendations, RASH. I definitely get the vibe of Bloodborne and Horodehoro anime/manga from HEART.

[@IAcePTI]

Well my hording of books was suposedly stoped... until i saw this video... i guess just one more :D

[@himurogentoku7117]

You really shouldn't watch Dave reviews if you want to stop collecting ttrpg books, to be honest Ace. Hahaha just kidding, all TTRPG fans should watch Dave reviews. All of games that Dave reviews are great and Dave pitches and insights are too good. Haha.

[@IAcePTI]

@@himurogentoku7117 Well it is not the first time that i bought one rpg book becouse of his videos.

[@himurogentoku7117]

@@IAcePTI So am i to be honest Ace. Dave convinces me to get John Carter of Mars, Age of Sigmar Soulbound and City of Mist.

[@dahobdahob]

Are Beats an extension of.. Keys? ... damn too many indie games. I can't remember the name of anything.

[@DaveThaumavore]

Yeah I don’t know. Are you thinking of Apocalypse Keys?

[@seangibbons4713]

Apart from inspiration, what is the relationship between Spire/Heart and Darkest Dungeon (video game)? Did the artist come from that studio? The flavor is uncannily similar, and one of the classes is directly taken from DD.

[@eladhen2]

As I understand it, the player is the one who can decide to make 2 major fallouts into a critical fallout.

[@FdA4099]

Hi Dave Thaumavore, I need you help. I really don't understand how to build a Delve. I've found the rules at page 133 and 134 not as clear as I would. At page 73 are indicated the Stress values for each Tier but which would the suggested amount of Resistance be for each Tier and Number of Players in your opinion?

[@carlangasa4622]

this game has major made in abyss vibes

[@garygrant6987]

While the setting seems interesting, I think it’s too outside the norm for my players. Also I don’t like that prejudisms as acknowledged but never acted out. I mean, why? It’s a game, if these things are true to the setting- why not make prejudices something to be addressed and overcome?

[@thecarrotclarinet]

Down in the Heart it's not really a thing, people are more or less equal in the sense of what they look like. They judge you more from where in the heart you come from. If you're looking for a game which actively grapples with Drow subjugation and resistance look for Spire

[@garygrant6987]

@@thecarrotclarinet Thank you for the response.

[@leodegrance]

nobody said that, but I see some HUGE "Made in Abyss" vibes there. Unfortunately is a narrative RPG and that kills most of my expectation, but it would be nice to run the settings in a more "classical" way.

[@mathyew991]

I would struggle to call this a review, but it is a solid summary of the core mechanics.

[@csudab]

I wonder if they like Slay the Spire and Darkest Dungeon 😆

[@raymondharnack4160]

I like the concept of spire but it pigeon holes it’s players into a single perspective and that’s egregious in my opinion.

[@tobincarlino1921]

How so?

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Honestly how did this win the awards? Seems like the took the art and gameplay conecpt from Darkest Dungeon and sunless sea and other the video game and TT games in this genre like Blades in the Dark and made a TTRPG book out of it... Which personally I don't like the sound of all... Love it's setting and might love the lore what little of it there is... Art in a TT game for me only matters if it impacts gameplay like cards in Blood red skies or Pokemon... How does the art matter at all in a game where you only the GM will read all of it? Which the game seems to mechinics light to win a award for machinics especly when you can find rules like this is so many other naritive focused books. Like what I'm a missing that makes this game the best in 2021?

[@badkite8279]

100% this

[@viridians3138]

Darkest Dungeon the TTRPG

[@BizarreM]

I've sent this video to my group chat and we had the best dialogue of that day. Me: >you can play as a racist elf >developers ask you to not roleplay racism at the table thanks Obama My friend: Fuck devs Ima be racist out of the table too