What Makes Old Fighting Games So Different

[@Krackatoa]

TTTTT, the +R Kliff player who popped up in the Zappa sword anecdote, recently invented an optimized route from Kliff's invisible 5D that one-touches most of the roster for 25-50 meter from midscreen. Make sure you don't feel bad for them.

[@arbyw.1889]

Cause Kliff players will never feel bad for you.

[@finnickbest7100]

I knew I hated that character... Now I finally have a reason...

[@Nyagro]

Nearly 15 years later and people still find new things is why +R is amazing. Go play +R. The sandbox like feeling of constantly discovering new things about your character. Never gets old.

[@nonemitigation]

ngl it's been fun watching everyone just smile and nod at them like "yeah sure man, kliff is top tier, whatever you say", only for everyone to realize in horror why that's true

[@gigadon120]

Link/name, would love to see?

[@RBNinja]

Damn Sajam really started spitting with that Helldivers comparison at the end.

[@brianbonn5733]

That was definitely a "DJ, run that shit back" moment lol

[@Doople]

So true. Been saying the same to my friends. Caught their ass doing DPs instantly

[@CarbonRollerCaco]

They like TOTAL control. It's not that they can't do that shit at all, but rather how it prevents them from doing it IMMEDIATELY while ALSO impeding certain corresponding _basic_ actions, never mind overlapping special motions. Accidental success can be just as much of a fucker-up as failure, as anyone who used fireball spam Customs in Alpha 2/3 can testify-- HADOHADOHADOHADOSHORYUshit!

[@geraldtheoctopus1594]

I imagine the problem for most people is the timer. In Helldivers you can take as long as you'd like to do the input, which makes things much easier for new players. On top of that Helldivers 2 uses the arrow keys or the D-pad's 4 cardinal directions which is much easier to input on than a stick where sometimes your finger just goes to far (and no, a Hitbox would not solve this problem for everyone, they cost money and time to learn how to use which is more investment than these people want to invest).

[@VerbalLearning]

As another comment on this video already said, the biggest difference between old and modern fighting games is intent. This doesn't mean old fightings didn't have intent behind them when they were made, it just means they had less of it. Not every element of the game was designed with a specific gameplay purpose in mind. Some things were just thrown in there because they were either cool, funny or silly or maybe they just wanted to see if some of their ideas were even feasable. A simple analogy that i think explains it quite well would be: Old fighting games are like a hot pot, a few key stable ingredients and the rest is improvised. Modern fighting games are like a dish made by following a recipe.

[@aledantih6524]

That's a really good way of putting it damn

[@goldskarr]

Good point, there does seem to be a lot of "yo, wouldn't it be funny if..?" Typea of mechanics in old fighters. Like the stun system in Karnov. The hell was up with that? Never forget the Declaration of Victory. That game may be canceled but the stupidity should live on.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

I feel like this explanation is why I personally connected with smash ultimate, because it's like one of the few fighting games that doesn't feel corrupted by fighting game culture and demands and more like a game A game with so much borderline useless tech and specific character interactions you can do

[@BHSoren]

I rather miss that style of design, because they end up feeling sandboxy. And there's so much personality in there it's charming. I know the (potential) flaws of such a design, of course, but that just doesn't stop them from being so darn enjoyable.

[@Qneetsa]

That's a lot of words to excuse bad game design. "Just because it doesn't work half the time or doesn't actually have any plausible counterplay DOESN'T MEAN it's badly designed. It's just different, don't you get it?". And if you want to object to my statement first answer this for yourself: do YOU think you know what is bad game design for a multiplayer game? Would you be able to tell bad game design from good game design? Do you think bad game design even exists or is it all just "subjective"? But I like comments like this. Make me much less confused about, and shed light on, why people would vehemently stand against wearing masks, doing vaccines or AI implementations. I guess progress as a concept is just THAT scary to a lot of people so they desperately look for for an excuse why "old was good".

[@GreetingsMortal]

Truly the internet is an amazing place - where the same video can be made every few months and we will still watch it

[@Taziod]

LMFAO

[@Pokemonmovemaster]

Because the same discussion points get repeated every few months after a bunch of big FGs release and the honeymoon phase ends.

[@Snow_is_Phertil]

New people are born everyday. New people go to school everyday. New people need this explained for the 1000th time for their first time. Most problems are already solved it simply hasn’t reached your ears.

[@kef0205]

I think Sajam makes some great points in this one that at least add clarity and nuance to a tired debate.

[@Maggotbone]

I feel like this is the third same video in 1 month tbh (this one is my favorite so far, can't wait for the fourth)

[@purifyws]

Man, thank you for using my tweet and making this video. I was hoping something like this would happen so the perspective could get out there. Fighting games are sick. Old ones and new ones. I'd even say Sajam expounded on what I meant and gave some great similar examples. A guy 10 years younger than me gets it PLUS has an amazing platform to help explain it, and I'm so happy for that. One thing I'll add - it's not just a strong gimmick or knowledge check that's extra effective in the old game environment (which Replay Takeover is a great tool for), it's also true for sticking to strong basics and safety. I never know to be proud or sad about constantly just 6P'ing people out of the sky who just want to reach their ceiling, but it's good news still: old hard slippery games still have very important fundamental decisions.

[@purifyws]

My brother told me to ask for some Chipotle but that's crazy talk, we'll probably buy Chipotle well before that could happen

[@mike_rowave7621]

i dont think sajam expounded on this correctly at all, the comparison of kbnova losing to some sol doing gimmicks and the statement that like "that wouldnt happen to omito in Xrd" is SO GROSS, not only is zappa in +R even easier than johnny is in Xrd but omito is just a WAY better player than kbnova is i mean kbnova barely even plays +R, NONE of that example correctly justifies this argument in relation to +R, and i would broadly say that this thought process of older games being more scrambly or gimmicks being stronger in them is mainly born from the players for older games just being worse and fewer

[@steamyrobotlove]

I remember having to watch 240p, download-only MPeGs and AVIs of CVS2 to figure out how to fight Blanka. And truth be told: I still don’t know.

[@tootsie_]

No one knows how to fight CVS2 Blanka, that's a demon character

[@goldskarr]

You don't. You clutch your ass and pray.

[@capemron6330]

I felt cool playing that game online and beating people with footsies, just strong pokes and anti-air normals all day. Then I played against a roll-cancel Blanka(which makes everything of his have i-frames) and he blew threw everything I did. RCing adding i-frames is dumb. If it just extended combos or something cool, but things like Blanka balls being invincible is just silly.

[@steamyrobotlove]

@@capemron6330 Truth, roll cancel was a huge barrier for entry into intermediate CvS2 play. I only have experience playing it during breaks and lunch on a PS2 with controllers in a work setting! XD But even then, we had some killers in the office who, while not roll cancelling on a control, could still pull off the typical A-groove combos. It was brutal. :D

[@vodkagobalsky]

You fight Blanka by picking Blanka, or Sagat, or Cammy.

[@Sorrelhas]

People will deadass know from memory all possible builds for a character in Dota and then look me in my beautiful brown eyes and tell me FGs are too hard because of combos

[@Qneetsa]

FIghting game are harder because you don't get to play the game until you spend quite a bit, and I mean QUITE A BIT of time preparing to play instead of playing. You learn basic Dota by playing Dota. You learn basic fighting games by sitting in the lab. One is actual thing you do, the other one is homework. All modern educational systems cut down heavily on homework because of how inefficient it is to teaching subjects and crafts and try to do as much interactive learning as possible. Video games allow that from the get go, but FGC players will be defending homework till the day they die.

[@Sorrelhas]

@@Qneetsa What you just said is just factually incorrect I have like, hundreds of hours into multiple fighting games, and I think like, 5% of those are spent in the lab Newer fighting games in particular are very good at passively teaching you stuff The things you need training mode to learn in FGs are the same things you need training mode to learn in Dota (what a character does, solutions to specific problems, etc) "You need 300 hours in the lab before you go play online" comes from a time when games didn't move a finger to teach you how to play and gave you 0 resources, and no one shared tech online (also oldheads gatekeeping) Also FGs have no teammates to carry you while you're still bad at the game

[@forte9910]

@@Qneetsa you sound like someone that has never played dota. you will literally ruin the game for 9 people if you just jump into a game of dota

[@Sheikplays]

I@@forte9910 I think the thing about mobas is that they have a bigger player base and more people in different elos. So you can suck as much as you wanna and learn on your own pace. Now, let's compare to any slightly older FG; if I boot up KOF xv I'll get eaten alive

[@forte9910]

@@Sheikplaysthose games have been around for a long time and have huge issues with smurfs and legacy skills. If you just boot up you will be eaten alive and not only will you lose you will be flamed often not just by your team but the enemy too...

[@johnornelas]

Coming from an RTS background, it's so funny how this video is basically the exact same sentiments players had from...say Starcraft 1 to Starcraft 2.

[@curiosityunbound5460]

Same with card games, the difference between old mtg and new mtg is extremely similar. A lot of old cards are just really cool ideas the designers had that ended up doing wildly unpredictable and broken things later on, whereas new cards are mainly designed to work within specific frameworks and the designers rotate and how they choose what's strong when.

[@Komatik_]

@@curiosityunbound5460 Hey here's a Past in Flames Storm deck, calculate out the lines and do some amazing things. Here's Omniscience, a single card combo in a can that takes all the magic out of Magic.

[@Tuuubesh0w]

That their game is really hard you mean? FPS gamers say and think the same thing about FPS games. I bet it's the same in Mobas and every other genre as well

[@lastlunarrun6418]

Mentally saying "the Xrd players have broodwar syndrome" for years now

[@Nooctae]

As someone that also has a Starcraft background, it's actually crazy how similar the discussions are on the Old vs New stuff.

[@BHS289]

I appreciate the editor picking the most cursed mustachio’d Diaphone for that bit

[@henriquecoratozanarella6006]

For +R Millia, I recently created a setup that OSs all of Slayer's defensive options regardless of tension, forcing them to actually respect my pressure. It's a setup that only makes sense vs Slayer, both in what it covers and in the execution side of it, and I inaugurated it the other day ^^ There are no guides, we're just exploring stuff and finding cool tech all the time, and that's part of what makes me love this game :D 💙

[@kenmastersX]

Every time a new Johnny player comes into the discord for +R and they ask for bnbs we're like ok, what situation? Starter, position, level, character youre doing it on, phase of the moon? etc. Then we try to ease them into combo theory. Putting time to learning things hands on instead of having everything handed to you is a different experience for sure

[@juegobuenoyomalo9501]

I mean, that's being intentionally obtuse. Either give the man a combo or tell him there's no bnb but by the definition of bnb they cant be dependant on starter and level and character and position, thats not what a bnb is

[@kenmastersX]

​@@juegobuenoyomalo9501 So the problem with Johnny is that unlike Xrd and Strive, you have a ton of factors for what you're accomplishing because things just don't work the same thanks to janky hitboxes. Are you going for hard knockdown? Damage? Also what character? Johnny has a basic combo starter that whiffs on Millia because she's too small unless you delay kick mist finer to make sure it drops. This is the exact shit that Sajam was mentioning in his video, you end up having to learn all these little things to make up your game. On the other hand, the dustloop +R Johnny section is extremely thorough with starter combos, then working your way up. The previous statement was partially in jest but it's true, everyone comes in asking for a list of concrete answers and we're like just focus on these things then work your way into learning the harder stuff if you want. All the Johnny players tend to play super different thanks to what they end up focusing on.

[@mike_rowave7621]

you havent even bothered to learn optimal johnny combos yourself after like 100 years of playing the game

[@harryvpn1462]

Easy just f.s into lvl2 236K into j.p j.k j.s jc j.k j.s j.d 63214HS whenever

[@jennyinutil2018]

The best part about modern fighting game design is that a new player asking what to do about x move or strategy and the answer being "Oh yeah that's busted there's not much you can do" is so much rarer now

[@blues4509]

The Napoleon meme just came to mind and killed me with the way you put that. Two players resigned to their fate

[@pipehelix5776]

Sajam verbalizes in 30 seconds what angry fg veterans couldn't in over 10 years

[@ThunderFlameAttack]

He do talk for a living :D

[@TrophyJourney]

That's what education will do to you.

[@ygorknowles5681]

Someone always has to be the villain, classic.

[@pipehelix5776]

@@ygorknowles5681 I'm not saying they are the bad guys, I'm just pointing out the discourse hasn't gone anywhere because people not really wanting to discuss about it, the "new game bad, it's scrubby and baby mode" it's a standard response for a reason. Anyone can dislike any game, but you try to tell someone your game good and their game bad I would like to hear more about it and not a paraphrased response

[@spoopa7733]

Surely if I repeat the word expression over and over it will eventually start to mean something

[@tencoth]

Can we get that ending stinger as a stand alone short or something? I wanna bully my fps friends.

[@caelan5301]

Dizzy is the coolest setplay character I've ever played in my life, and it's entirely a product of the games that she's in. Xrd and +R with their character specific wakeup times, weights, hitbox differences, etc. make it so despite the fact that her design is about knocking you down and making you block for the rest of the round, it's a win condition that looks and feels very different in every matchup.

[@thelegendaryhusquin9906]

Dizzy really is one of the most unique Guilty Gear charcters because of her setplay. Her desigb is also pretty out there, which drew me to want to play her. I've been trying to learn Dizzy in +R and Xrd for years, but always struggle with character specific match ups. Millia, Baiken, Slayer and Johnny are so crazy hard to fight against online.

[@Storse]

​@@thelegendaryhusquin9906dizzy is really good vs baiken in xrd, fish oki and pressure shuts down basically all her azami followups so it forces her to use mawarikomi (the pass through dodge) if she does even try to azami on wakeup or during your offensem

[@caelan5301]

@@thelegendaryhusquin9906 You're gonna struggle with character specifics and matchups with every character. Everyone has bad matchups, but the nice thing about dizzy is none of them are unwinnable if you have your oki down, all it takes is 1 touch and a few mixups

[@alecpetros7979]

I’m really happy to see this take here, i’m an xrd venom player as well and i’ve said the same for ages. All that weird character weight class and size specific stuff that people say they’re happy to see go, and adds no depth - it’s actually like a multiplier on the already insane amount of room to explore and play with routes, setups, pressure, etc. I’m super happy for all the weird variance across the cast cause while i still have my stable universal stuff that was easy to learn when i was starting out, it’s SO cool to figure out new tricks and shenanigans for each matchup

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@TTTTTsd]

Oh hey that's me on the big screen up there! hi!!!!! Yeah old games are awesome, I don't think I could recreate the experience of jumping in and reinventing a lot about Kliff in like, a new Fighting Game, unless it's like BRAND NEW at launch and I happen to stumble into something gold. Still, I'm glad you made this video! It's a genuinely interesting talking point when it's approached from a fair perspective, and I always walk away from it understanding that Fighting Games have just shifted their difficulty elsewhere~. I think it's super hard to be REALLY STRONG in a new game, not just because of the density of players, but the way information spreads. You can't hide ANYTHING from anyone in new games haha. That's part of why I still play new games on occasion, and have even thought of grinding out one of em': it's a different kind of rewarding, like trying to survive in the deep ocean as a tiny fish at first.

[@MJCKCA]

If I had to minimize it to one word it would be intent. Game devs now understand what players do to optimize and how tools are used, so they're able to design games around these expectations and make the game feel better for newcomers

[@aledantih6524]

Something the FGC doesn't really take into account with this is the devs know that's the only way they can have fighting games even somewhat keep up with the industry as a whole. Fighting games will always be incredibly niche but imagine if SF6 or T8 were as difficult to get into and compete in than even some of their earlier entries. They'd get nowhere with how cutthroat the industry is now and the genre would just fade off.

[@oklimbo]

I think people know, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck that the things that you love changed in order to stay financially viable. It's good they're staying viable, but it sucks that it's even necessary because the things some people love are sometimes being lost in the exchange.

[@NoName-lk8ij]

This 1000% Fighting games are hella fun but let's real, not a big pull in comparison to BR, Sports games, anything shooter related, even single player games are slowly making a comeback due to the BS that is hyper monetized always online games. Fighting games need to be open to a more casual audience to continue even existing. If SF6 didn't do well, I'm willing to bet Capcom would have given up on fighting games period and just stick to single player games from now on. Video games is still a business at the end of the day and if the Fighting Games branch of your business is just burning money, you gotta close it eventually. @@aledantih6524

[@aledantih6524]

@@oklimbo I can sympathise with that honestly, I love a lot of the dumb stuff from old fighters too and a lot of other games I like have gotten similar treatment (I'm a Helldivers 1 fan for example lol) but I think lashing out at the games or devs like some players do isn't really appropriate

[@oklimbo]

@@aledantih6524 is helldivers 2 significantly different to 1? I played tf out of 1 but I only game on last gen console so I haven't even looked at 2 to know what changed. I play old and new fighting games, and I'm not complaining just explaining my interpretation of the complaints.

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

It was worth repeating the discourse so many times to arrive at the creation of this exact video.

[@purifyws]

Happy to hear this lol

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

This is the matrix finally breaking free moment.

[@michaelfloodine]

10:26 Im a weird scrub but for me my FAVORITE part of fighting games is that "and then new weird scrambles are happening" moment. Second place would be in button to block games when both players are in each other's face with guard up and the tension of who act/reacts right

[@Maggotbone]

I adore those too!!! Both of these are so fun and hilarious

[@guga5708156]

Not having information is not a modern problem, its a popular game problem, you can play unpopular new fighting games and struggle to get any info about it.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

And then there's MVC2, whose supercombo wiki page only has details on like half of the roster

[@NotSnapdragon]

Virtua Fighter strikes the perfect balance for me since it manages to have fast decision making and 10 frames of buffer. There's still plenty of odd interactions to learn too.

[@harryvpn1462]

Someone needs to get the ball rolling on virtua fighter cuz people always forget its a game

[@fogdiver2989]

4:19 Thank you for telling me about this, it lead me to a very comprehensive guide on how to combo baiken when I hit her with 5k anti air and i super jump and i don't have bar to do force break sidewinder :)

[@Cogbyrn]

I actually have been approaching new games as though the information doesn't exist online, and i love it. I don't look up combos, options, anything, so every time i find something out, i feel like the character is even more my own. The tools in the game are way better so it's easier, and I'm still not optimal, but it's me playing, and that means more to me than advancing further in the ladder faster.

[@gutsbadguy50]

I really like the SF4/Blazblue/Mvc3 era of fighting games because execution was still challenging but basic inputs were starting to become more streamlined. Felt like a good balance.

[@dontevenworryaboutit4912]

Feeling pretty validated by hearing someone else relate the stratagem codes to motion inputs for the first time

[@Ketsuekisan]

When I was explaining Helldivers 2 to my brother, I described the stratagems as "fighting game super commands." There are dozens of us who get it!

[@peerlessvillain]

Holy Order Sol players unlocking recharge routes is literally so insane to me that +R has been out for so long before anyone started to dive into. Also, there is hardly anything more satisfying than landing character specific +R FRC combos.

[@peerlessvillain]

On that note I play +R at home and 3rdStrike at my local barcade, and 3S is wayyyyy more fucked up in my opinion. I played sf4 so I thought I could do 1f links pretty confidently, but between 1f links, parry and abused arcade sticks/buttons, and the sheer amount of Ken players, yeah. 3s is harder than +r imp

[@comraderogers3105]

Bruh have you seen what ino players have to do for optimal damage

[@babytricep437]

They’re so optimal it’s not even funny, they killed Dustloops and are the new meta. It’s so cool

[@peerlessvillain]

​yeah yeah 6frc6 we've all seen that before. I'd argue venom charge partitioning is harder

[@comraderogers3105]

@@peerlessvillain its not just 6FRC6 its the fucking 2 frame window combined with 632146K 6FRC6 input i dont doubt that venom charge partitioning is hard, but theres no dustloop page for it and ive never heard of it so i doubt its as necessary above mid lvl

[@Lotus_on_YT]

I love the "Sajam throws bars" section at the end of videos.

[@TacticalOmelette]

I remember doing my first Sidewinder loop in +R just a few months ago, and the feeling of satisfaction was something I could never recreate with any modern fighting game. Tis a shame none of my friends play +R so I'll never hit em with it, but still sick AF

[@hirotrum6810]

I think older games had a much more top down approach to designing characters movesets. They designed a character, chose what their powers and fighting styles were, then made animations that looked cool and made use of those elements, then finally designed the frame data and hitboxes to fit the moves visuals. The character's strengths and weaknesses were often the result of coincidence. In modern fighting games, the moves function is the first thing that is considered

[@grantm.5975]

This is probably exactly how they chose to design SF2 and GG Missing Link. The balance is so wonky I have a hard time believing otherwise.

[@h2_]

When sajam called injustice 1 an old game... help me

[@Franko_L_L]

As an imput buffer fan, this is now my favourite Sajam video

[@lancergt1000]

old fighting games are lawless fr

[@superbnns]

Can't spell Flawless without Lawless

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

@@superbnnsque sf2's vaga

[@Lore_from_Stars]

@@superbnns both of you are spittin

[@tabkg5802]

8:59 this is actually facts. +R being so inconsistent is one of my favorite things about it cause it not only allows for theoretically insane combos/offense, but also still keeps constant interactions between players cause those things drop all the time

[@MFMagnus]

Having no buffer is the reason we in the MVC2 community joke that the hardest thing to do in the game is hit two buttons. (LP + HP to dash) And it's because of that your character will sometimes die due to you whiffing a 5HP on the ground, or a whiffed 5HP in the air trying to airdash. I fucking love this game so much.

[@Fyrijou]

As a guy who bought almost all the old fighting game collections and played trough the arcades i am so happy that fighting games have been made much easier and more streamlined. I prefer so much more doing a half circle to execute a grab than a double full circle move to do a gran finisher. „Digging in and truly learning your character“ is not a satisfying reward at all, especially when the old CPU was input reading like a mf and blocking EVERYTHING

[@midorixiv]

this feels like it gets to the root of it, trying to figure out wtf I'm even meant to do in some matchups in +R as Jam felt pretty shit when the majority of match footage was 10 year old blurry arcade footage, but at the same time the general 'freedom' of the game made me feel real good when I just kinda improvised a combo route and it worked (plus there was always something to practice). Meanwhile playing GBVSR the game can feel pretty restricted and solved at times, but actually trying to find answers to matchups is soooo much easier.

[@akiraagito4635]

That last statement about helldivers and motion inputs. Chef's kiss. When you have to turn the butter for a mech, it's one of the first things that made me love helldivers.

[@akaseiba]

i love picking up old or obscure fighting games just to mess around in training mode and figure out how the game works, literally dont even need someone else to play those games with sometimes

[@ectothermic]

My favourite thing about BlazBlue: Centralfiction is that every single character literally plays entirely differently. They all have unique mechanics and gimmicks and it's like every character is playing a different game and they're just smashing into each other. We don't get that anymore, maybe because it's really hard to balance or it's not very easy to follow for eSports purposes.

[@TheEpicPancake]

My friend's PC can't run UNICLR or anything newer, so I've had to dive into older games. It's literally the only reason I decided to play Melty, and I've never had so much fun with a fighting game. Then I got Arcana Heart on a whim and immediately fell in love with that, too. Now, I kinda get why people find fun in the obtuse parts of older games. Experimentation to find the answers to problems is very satisfying, even if it's not so streamlined.

[@apaleguy]

There's a reason why I keep coming back to 3S and now MVC2 it's because we're still finding new things out about these games decades later. It also really humbles me and helps me respect the fundamentals more. They're definitely execution heavy and moving from a lever to leverless has been interesting there's a few different things you have to do to make it work but you can do it.

[@niwona_]

One day we'll have the movement/pace revolution when they realize making those better creates the perfect bell curve of allowing newer players to feel strong and better players to find depth

[@angquangnguyenthac2833]

But that's not really the thing tho?

[@LegateSprinkles]

You should make some of these ending bits as shorts. The Helldivers moment was spittin

[@Hayden3732]

Sajam broke the code, gotta train them in Helldivers term. Alright if you want to block this, you’re gonna do it like you’re calling a 500Kg. Heavy Machine Gun ! Heavy Machine gun ! ‘Okay how do I do this combo ?" You’re gonna do Up,Down,Left,Down,Up,Right,Down,Up.

[@giantdinoboy8264]

6:55 Jump and air dash out of the way. If Zappa hits you in the air while away from his sword he doesn't get much and you can air tech to get around it. This will either force the Zappa player to play more aggressively to prevent you from getting past his sword and rendering is slash and heavy slash buttons useless until the sword slowly floats back to him. For Cliff specifically he can use slash and heavy slash to apply safe pressure in the air or he can use his dust attack in the air to frame trap anti-airs. Cliff also has a dive bomb attack that can be comboed into for a knockdown or used as another frame trap option.

[@mus0u]

i think this is also true of FPS games when comparing e.g. Quake or Unreal Tournament to something like Valorant or Apex. Many guns in the old games have pixel-perfect accuracy and no magazine-based reloading, so the movement is WAY faster and more difficult to execute to compensate. It's fun and exciting to see imperfect execution come into play more in high level matches (sadly the ultra-fast movement ends up being harder to follow for spectators, which is a huge reason why I think FPS games have slowed way down over the years). I think people are too quick to dismiss the old games as being unfun, when really they're just optimized for a different _kind_ of fun, and a lot of people who only play one or the other could probably appreciate both if they could get past the cultural divide caused by their different assumptions.

[@mikemac-man3796]

This video is only going to get funnier the more times he makes it.

[@JB_CY]

The execution thing is definitely true. Hitting a 60% level 3 combo in sf6 is fun... but doing command grab into dash punch into super with Q in 3S hits different

[@Draconilian]

Makoto Karakusa into abare tosanami has eluded me for decades

[@SageRuffin]

@@Draconilian I hear ya. I love Makoto, but I simply don't have the dexterity needed to perform her SA2 combos. So I go for SA1 instead. You can't combo after and the timing is even tighter since, to my knowledge, you can't combo into it the same way like with SA2, but it feels _oh so good_ when I actually pull it off.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

Tbf Q is unironically one of third strike's more technical characteristics

[@beam5655]

​@@SageRuffinSA1 has more ways to combo into it. Like link out of dash punch or cancel from HP from anywhere on the screen. It has really good utility but packs less punch than SA2 if you can do the full stun combo, so it really comes down to preference.

[@harryvpn1462]

Cant wait for this video to come back in rotation in 2 weeks

[@SunsetSullivan]

This video is real as hell and I have an example to back it up- +R Testament. +R Testament is a beast character, but also has such a high skill ceiling to dig into for every move. Take Zeinest for example, aka Net. You can use it for so much stuff- safe blockstring enders, anti-jump corner okizeme, air control... but it also has niche uses. Using it in an IAD to break air movement. Using it in MOP Loops, which are Testament's ToD combos. Using it to delay your fall to bait anti-airs. Using it to **remove active frames from moves.** Then there are the matchup-specific interactions for it. You can use Net to block Bridget or Millia's air movement. You can use it to suck up a hit of Potemkin Hammerfall armor. You can use it to punish Sol by blocking Ground Viper and launching into it with Grave Digger. You can put it in the air above you, so a basic string into Badlands, and continue the combo with an IAD. This flexibility rarely exists in modern games, which is why I love Testament so much. There is so much you can do off of one move.

[@ZephyricaSSBM]

This is why melee still has over a thousand entrants at big tourneys. It feels so good to schmoove

[@peerlessvillain]

Also the way to beat baiken is to literally just throw throw throw. Mash low in neutral to beat suzuran, and if you are gonna press a button, press one thats safe enough to block and punish her follow-ups. But i play johnny so, its kinda easy with mist cancels

[@VoidEternal]

If anyone in curious as to what can happen to a fighting game when things are slowed down, instead of sped up, please do some research into the first year of For Honor. While not exactly a fighting game, it maintained the same RPS principles that you'd see in FGs, it was just slower. This resulted in some character being dumpster tier, and the best character in the game was one who had a fast unblockable that he could mix with a throw to basically shut down everyone else in the game who wasn't using an exploit.

[@johnm6495]

13:59 "I don't like how Ryu looks. I'd rather fight BUGGUZ" 😂😂😂 How are we not all appreciating this take. This the funniest shit I've heard in months

[@soldier257]

Execution being at least somewhat difficult had always been one of my major reasons for playing. It was so fun when i could finally wavedash in UMVC3 or FADC in sf4. I think today’s games are finding a good balance of difficulty cuz FADC was fun, but holy hell do i never want to see those 1fr links again!

[@invertedmind8937]

i'm so glad someone put this into words

[@Ikaichi1]

As a 16 year old who grew up with SFIV and uMvC3, going back to Third Strike and Marvel 2 are so fun for me because the simple intricacies are so fun to learn.

[@mia_2043]

Old sandboxy mechanics + modern optimization and resources is the sweetspot 💪 Easy to jump into and learn the "gist" of common matchups but enough wiggle to make certain situations your own and see weird interactions. A handful of games are finally entering this phase post-rollback and other tools, it's what been keeping Melee alive forever

[@Tomoka51]

This is precisely why I like BlazBlue so much ngl. Wild Lego set combo structure with cool unique characters, AND there's an input buffer and decent training mode options? Sign me up

[@LZCleric]

This is honestly why I still like French Bread so much, they're keeping the spirit alive with UNIB

[@Gumga3000]

When in history has anyone defended old games without the same tounge bitterly scorning new games

[@johnm6495]

13:28 The end-of-vid rant comparing motion inputs in fighting games to stratagems in HD2 caught me so off-guard and had me dying 🤣🤣🤣

[@peerlessvillain]

ALSO ALSO, the simplifications they made to johnny for rev are actually mindblowing when you think about it. There was no way he wouldnt be top1

[@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034]

The fact that they gave him a super that resets his """"""limited resource""""" unblockable projectile for *no reason*

[@HeirofDacia]

​@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 Coin is not unblockable.

[@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034]

@@HeirofDacia damn feels like it with how fast that shit comes out for an overhead projectile.

[@HeirofDacia]

@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 Not an overhead, either.

[@peerlessvillain]

​@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 nah. They made 2k 2d coin universal. They fixed 2d whiffing after 2k max range. They changed the Mist finer input to make it safe. They just made mist finer AND COIN stupid good. They condensed killer joker and divine blade AND ENSENGA into Zwei. Air mist finer for no reason. All those changes plus yrc ? All the mechanically hard shit about johnny from +r basically just disappeared. Sure it is still hard to to play rev2 johnny perfectly. But you gotta admit. Not having to hit KJ Frc and lvl2 mist finer loops and wildly different enkasu set ups....so much easier to just coin/zwei yrc

[@pdb189]

James Chen thinks his characters lose every matchup 8-2. Truly a man ahead of his time

[@Furball_]

Dude, that ending needs to be a youtube short!!

[@Nooctae]

Well, what do you know, when you type " sol badguy how to combo baiken with 5k anti air super jump with no bar to do force break sidewinder " in youtube, seems like the answer is there !

[@TurboNemesis]

13:28 this bit right here. I was trying to get a friend to try a fighting game and she kept saying all this same stuff and going on about how remembering all the motions is too much. like, ma'am, you play Devil May Cry. You're fucking *sick* at devil may cry. you can absolutely play fighting games.

[@Xeare204]

I haven't played Helldivers personally, but I think that the distinction between "Press buttons fast in the right order" and "Press buttons in the right order [ a n d ] with the right timing" is the main difference that makes motion inputs difficult and annoying for these kinds of players.

[@spiffythealien]

Also, I don't think the bugs are gonna fuzzy guard your orbital strike.

[@ZeriocTheTank]

The 8-2 matchups. Reminds me of when I fought a honda in a tournament as a gief main in sf2 turbo. Pain. That's what I experienced. All I could do was crouching jab & maybe an occasional sweep, but we both knew what the results were going to be.

[@naejimba]

I think it becomes interesting when you talk about clutching something out in an old game: the room for human error is HUGE compared to newer games, meaning you are much more likely to flub your attempt to counter something, or drop a combo, etc. and PRESSURE of doing it in a high stakes situation, during a tournament, and so on has much more of an impact. So when you see someone clutch something out in a situation like that, the level of hype is exponentially higher. This is why everyone has a boner for Daigo parry to this day; much easier to screw up under pressure = more hype.

[@gaminglakitu]

As someone that got drawn into fighters by the newer fighters, but ended up having XX+R as my first game, I can definitely say that new or old games are not better than others, they just have different priorities. Like in Plus R, the team definitely just did what they thought would be neat and got to cram all kinds of different unique things in, but because of not only how info was so non-existent at the time and with how the devs just weren't able test everything at the time because of how rushed dev cycles were at the time, it's how they become so obtuse and insane. Strive on the other hand wanted to try and give everyone more control and better understanding of how to actually play the game, which is why they made it more understandable in specific areas, but they have given us many more options in terms of resource management over time, which allows more people to focus on making those decisions and learning how to properly do those over just trying to learn how to do a quarter circle

[@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034]

Really, old games wouldn't ve so obtuse if they weren't old. If people actually optimized and posted the counter play and combos online than that would be a third of the obtuse-ness gone. Like I was trying to learn Ram in XRD a couple years ago and there was almost *nothing* on her outside of the most basic shit on dustloop. I've learned more in-game from other Ram players on player lobbies then looking the shit up.

[@BlueDeadNoRedemption]

In almost 25 years literally nothing has felt more satisfying to me than landing sentinel fly combos in mvc2.

[@Alter_Ego_V1.1037]

Fr, completed every combo trial in Melty Blood Type Lumina without really trying and being an Aoko enjoyer the set practically plays itself.

[@2Chep]

Your conclusion or later thoughts are why I have hope for 2XKO, it looks like it wants to have easy inputs/controls but whilst also being fast and scummy enough to hold that old player interest.....time will tell but here's hoping.

[@CharlotteMimic]

2:00 I'm thinking about how I ground out chaingrabs for *hours* in Melee to improve my matchup against just two of the top-tiers.

[@isiceradew716]

What does "sharply pointed options" mean in the context of describing gimmicks and their use to close out all the level 1 behaviors your opponent can go for? I don't know this terminology and would love assistance in understanding the metaphor. Thanks Sajam for the excellent video. I really appreciate how you highlight the value of flubs in game play. I personally adore playing and watching the most when the neutral is well played, and ascending the gradient of advantage is clean, but then everybody drops their combos so more of the interesting decision making can be experienced. In the versus games I find this to be doubly accurate because our combos take way too long to animate, and our neutral contains such a higher density of decisions in those environments.

[@Lore_from_Stars]

shout outs to the 6th dimensional wizards in the Discords that never stopped playing the games that came out in fucking 2001, they're usually pretty chill about answering questions

[@strategist9]

Old game good, new game bad, and game that isn't out yet will save fighting games. The mantra of the FGC.

[@giantdinoboy8264]

That and the other half of the community with old game bad because I can't do a near optimal combo or confirm a given situation to do the optimal response most of the time.

[@lorenzolombardi3369]

​@@giantdinoboy8264 the other half community with new game bad because I can't tod someone from frame 1 and characters are balanced and I have to play neutral instead of skipping it into 27 seconds unblockable combo. Both halves are bad in their own ways

[@giantdinoboy8264]

@@lorenzolombardi3369 Usually that stuff is patched out at the end of a series but with small developers who can't catch wide appeal don't get the chance to make a series, I get it.

[@JS-zz9lg]

Magneto is just so goddamn cool, no other characters I've played are nearly as cool as him

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

he's just a set of functions bro, you just like the functions.

[@shvrberi]

Winning was once about getting to play more, staying on the machine. Now it’s about self validation.

[@ERRandDEL]

It does feel pretty good to hit something hard when it's legitimately hard. Spent two hours to learn how to do *one* kire sidewinder and it was like lightning shot out of my hands

[@ERRandDEL]

Something I actually *don't* like about trying to figure stuff out in old games (at least as a less experienced player) is even if I do find something that *is* effective, if I don't see older players doing it and assume "well this must not be that good, so I won't use it" lol

[@pauldaulby260]

Id like to see a game implement a buffer that makes your move come out 1 frame slower for each frame early you are, so it doesnt drop inputs but tight links can still exist

[@bumibomber]

Thats a game where you need to constantly input 1 frame links to be competitive

[@giantdinoboy8264]

​@@bumibomberYou don't have to do the 1-frame links. If you can't do the hit execution option then just either do a simpler option or use it as a reset mix up point.

[@mattpk1609]

When Ed came out - even before i fought him for the first time - i saw a video that DI beats his fullscreen charge fist move. So far i have countered all of then every single time this way.

[@Alex-rh5jo]

Trying KOF around the time sf4 came out on the Xbox arcade was brutal. I couldn't do basic cancels from normals into specials

[@dj_koen1265]

if there is one thing that frustrates me to no end is that walking forward > qcf results in dp and that the only solution is to stand still for 0.5 before inputing the qcf, its the one awful flaw about games that have an input reader like that

[@beam5655]

Do half circle forward if you are walking forward to get qcf. It's very consistent.

[@dj_koen1265]

@@beam5655 yes that is true, i was just trying that in training mode because someone else also gave me that advice

[@thelegendaryhusquin9906]

The moment you make a good execution read is one of the most cool shit in video games ever. Also the older games tend to be quicker, so the quick back and forth desicion making makes rounds really hype! However, my one complaints about older games is that there just arent too many resources for specific match ups. This leads to me just throwing things against the wall until I brute force find an answer after a million mistakes are made. Its not fun, but also not a deap breaker.

[@shaolinshadowsoldier]

Mind blown that SF4 is considered an old game.

[@Yeet-ing]

It is.

[@shaolinshadowsoldier]

@@Yeet-ing OK zoomer

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

Old games are so different because they has super cheap af CPU aka the coin muncher, infinite combos that doesn't let you play at all if you're the receiver, harder executions that makes my hands and wrist hurts, and pretty much their lackluster in game tutorial + training mode. I grew up with old games, love them especially those beautiful 2D sprites, but i'm glad fightiing games has evolved and provided better QoL. Anyway, cool video Sajam.

[@The_Nei]

That last bit needs to be its own clip

[@rossstromberg7471]

it it means anything to anyone, +R was my first fighting game after its rollback update. 600 hours deep now i'd consider myself pretty comfortable with fighting games in general, i've been playing fighting games consistently ever since. Tekken 8 has by far been the HARDEST.

[@de5pa1r34]

As a certified FG zoomer (No dash macro already gives me pain). Playing games without a buffer makes me feel like I have never known how to play any games ever

[@Gearuz]

Old games created a lot of depth in them through stuff like walk/run speeds, movement options, momentum physics, weight classes, hurtbox sizes, wakeup speeds, heavy pushback on hit or block, etc etc. And devs clearly liked playing around with these variables a lot more, rather than pushing for more uniformity between characters. This added to the difficulty in execution, and that resulted in added variability - you could miss because of messed input or because the spacing wasn't just right. Nowadays, games want setups to always work 100%, to only give the same 2 or 3 options on defense, to always result in strict, consistent RPS situations. That is why, even though I still find new games fun, they are not nearly as impressive. I think it's best when there's a compromise, give players some high execution barriers here and there, make movement powerful but hard to manage.

[@Noah-je2xj]

playing SF6 with DR confirms and then going to GGXX ac+r and trying the do Gunflame FRC is like night and day. it really is so much harder to do even the most basic combos in the old games

[@thelaughingdragon32]

I just want both play styles to exist.

[@guitaroach]

They do exist

[@Philly_Phil]

That ending clip is gold

[@ButterflyFairyPrincess888]

@11:33 Definitely feel the same way. I enjoy fast paced and fast gameplay. The current modern games are waaayyy too slow. I think what some people missed about old games was being able to execute a hard combo in a quick way that seemed impossible in a match you were unsure of. To me, it’s more rewarding that way. I miss old games for this reason. 😊

[@idontno6d105]

me before the video: "oh boy, I love old fighting games!" me after the video: "man, why do I like old fighting games?" I think it's because I'm so bad at execution that it doesn't matter if I play a new or old game, I'm going to be the same either way.

[@sinshenlong]

Oddly enough, Strive is the only modern game that gives me this feeling @3:35 its one of the few classic guilty gear facets that has survived thankfully.

[@EasterDude]

Fantastic editing on this one!

[@Ev-xi5xp]

Designating this one a Certified Sajam Classic. I know it’s a talking point that comes up a lot, but I feel like this is a nice distillation of it that I can’t point people to when I say I love Melee and Strive for very different reasons.

[@DBD253]

Some people enjoy the win at the end of the grind and some folks run from the grind. I think that's the balance that's hard to find.

[@LegendaryPlank]

The outro was brilliant