What's a Fiddle Block for 4X4s?

#fiddleblock #redwinches #snatchblock #fm12 #fm24 #forcemultiplier
Here's an interesting new product, a fiddle block made for offroading from Red Winches. This is a way to get a 5:1 mechanical advantage. Probably most useful for offroading light-truck owners.
Read about it here:
motofomo.com.au/news-desk/gea...
Post questions as comments!
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[@teddekker3383]

Thank you Robert, very interesting to see some new product & ideas 🙂 - Ted

[@andrewhoward7200]

That's really interesting, especially as I'm new to the subject. Thanks.

[@fourbypete]

I'm glad you explained it. Only people with very heavy vehicles and long synthetic rope would need this.

[@L2SFBC]

Yep!

[@kareemsalessi]

I measured 6-to-1 mechanical advantage with two in-line fiddle-blocks; lifted 60lb, with 10lb-force!!!

[@MadMatt4WD]

Excellent Robert. I look forward to having a fiddle with a fiddle block.

[@L2SFBC]

We shall fiddle together!

[@maxgood42]

you needed this for your sideway winching the Bundera Video :)

[@offroadtaverngeorgecvetkov6785]

Very apt name for the product 👍

[@charliestreeservice6563]

Great product testing videos. We use a lot of synthetic rope 10mm, 14mm and 20mm to winch over trees and move heavy equipment in our line of work. Agree that recovery of trucks and trailers requires a lot of force, I'd recommend 100m of 10mm Dyneema if you want to use these effectively. Thanks for the review, I think we'll add a couple to our kit. Cheers

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks always keen to learn from other industries!

[@charliestreeservice6563]

@@L2SFBC have just seen that Red Winch makes a FM-50 with 20mm soft shackles, now were talking some serious 10t truck recovery with only 2t of force from a support vehicle and 100m of 10mm Dyneema (all working within a 5:1 safety factor). I'm impressed 💪

[@L2SFBC]

Yep I am hoping to test that

[@JasonVladimir]

Good show!

[@VidarrKerr]

Sailboats have had these forever.

[@joemadre9550]

I'm hitchin up my fiddle block right now..

[@allangoodger969]

An alternative that a lot of people don't know about is the Z rig.

[@jasonh4167]

Hello Robert Pepper found your youtube site and subscribed im from western Canada (alberta)and hope to learn more about recovery, overlanding gear. Also better tecniques. I have a jeep jk and 10k winch, some friends say over kill untill your 2.5 into gumbo.👍

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks Jason, love to hear from and learn from people in different countries!

[@einfelder8262]

Having a winch on a Jeep is mandatory because they always get stuck or break something in the driveline :)

[@antonhuman8446]

Very good. Thank you.

[@L2SFBC]

Our pleasure!

[@om617yota8]

I like the idea, but crikey you could get a pile of snatch rings and soft shackles for the same price, and have lots more options in a recovery situation.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed!

[@robertlewis7237]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR VIDEO

[@L2SFBC]

You are welcome!

[@ianmoore4327]

Good idea for a select group 4x4 er's. Have been waiting for a multi sheave product.

[@L2SFBC]

What would you use one for?

[@ianmoore4327]

Had a few situations with heavy vehicles being bogged and it would of been faster recovery with multi sheave snatch blocks. Would of saved a few winches as well. We use multi sheaves at work in various rigging applications fairly often, so I'm very familiar with the arrangements. But I do agree that we would see an increase in risk to damage to vehicles and injuries from overloading.

[@L2SFBC]

Good to know, some are saying there's never any need. I think they're a niche product, but an important niche. Would like to know more about your experience with multi-sheaves.

[@ianmoore4327]

Sure we can talk at Werribee 4wd club some time

[@warren6899]

From South Africa yikes ! 495 x exchange rate (22) ...... but thanks, I was wondering about these...

[@Zerububble]

It's a similar idea to things available for motorcycles. "Motorcycle Recovery System (MRS) Part 1"

[@L2SFBC]

Will check it out!

[@Zerububble]

@@L2SFBC The bike one shares more in common with rock climbing/rescue gear. You can get fiddle blocks for sail boats in the 1000kg/2000lb safe working load range.

[@chuckvan1568]

Each additional line doubles the pulling power. The problem is that running extra lines use up a lot of line. A winch typically has approximately 100 ft of line/cable. Then to maintain a full wrap of line on the winch reduces available line even more.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed, so I recommend using a winch extension rope for this.

[@chuckvan1568]

@@L2SFBC Yes. And that's easier to do with synthetic line as you've noted, rather than cable which isn't suitable for this block.

[@BurninBogey7]

Most winches are rated with the least amount of line on the drum anyway.

[@DeePunter]

this this channel is awesome

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks please share 👍

[@joemccarthywascorrect6240]

hat is the difference between one of these and a 2-sheave block? Other than being blaster (all the lines in a single plane) it takes up more square area than a 2-sheave block, but a two-sheave is thicker and the rope is in two planes. But when the rubber meets the road, there is an identical mechanical advantage with both. Is the expense really worth it? Or is it just that fiddle blocks have a high CDI Factor?

[@jasonhowe1697]

I will correct you on one thing that to pull the 2.5 ton/tonne vehicle the rope/winch wire must be rated double the capacity minimum or triple the max capacity of weight the vehicle specs including any GVM/GVCM upgrades you do.. noting no matter what you call it and no matter how it is configured it must be a weighted at the proper tonnage for the application you plan to use it for .. Personally I'd likely start looking past electric winch options with diff winch based options, because it is a guarantee that electric winch options will likely burn themselves past a 4.5/9 ton dead load

[@robertWohlers]

I agree with much of what Chris Cole is saying about this products possible dangers. IMHO I also find it quite “industrial” vs. “recreational” - even when used with really large Overlanding vehicles. In practicality, “who would carry this” even in an EarthCruiser, Unimog, or Ford 550 EarthRoamer? In a larger vehicle, I rather carry one, perhaps two, VERY robust and well made pulley blocks with the correct MTS and WLLs. Just me.

[@L2SFBC]

Totally see your point of view Bob, and I'm inclined to agree. Two blocks gives a 4:1 pull if rigged right.

[@lukewaelderfuninthesun8310]

How bout a video on three snack box rope one stuck car and one carpooling with an anchor point and without an anchor point please

[@ibetrollintheybehatin6857]

Most synthetic winch ropes are between 80-95FT. so, with 5 lines, let's hope you're stuck 20FT or less away from an anchoring point. I'll stick with 2-22,000lb snatch blocks for $45 a pair.

[@ridgerunner106]

Thats like deiving around on rock caveman wheels.

[@bent9248]

Hi Robert, Great Video! This product doesn't seem to be on the red-winches.com website. Do you have a link to where these are sold?

[@L2SFBC]

Hi, that's the right website. The product is super new, so not yet. I will post back here when I know.

[@L2SFBC]

Pricing is out - 495UKP, say $1000AUD.

[@CrusaderSports250]

So basically two snatch blocks for more money and less versatility, fine for digging beach bums out the sand but in a forest you often need one to change the angle of pull and the other to halve the load, or using two blocks on different anchor points to spread the anchor load , ( had as many as six pulleys on five anchor points when winching out stumps), this means the load on each point is less, creating less strain, and should an anchor point give way as its only a part load it is intrinsically safer. Using a wire strop you can rig your pulley system and at the last pulley fix your hand winch, ( you shouldn't use a hand winch wire round a pulley) , to keep the hand winch line straight, ( again used this set up, including on boulders up to two tonnes), the hand winch is a much underrated bit of kit and can be used at any angle, even away from the vehicle, get one and have fun !!☺.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed good post!

[@maxgood42]

And if you really like messing around in the mud do this with a high lift jack.

[@CrusaderSports250]

@@maxgood42 got one of those as well, never used it with pulleys and wire rope but chain and hooks is fun, the high lift is another underrated bit of kit and can do far more than just lift your vehicle, as always take care out there.

[@maxgood42]

@@CrusaderSports250 Yes. so as Robert said there would be time and a place to have $1000 worth of pully system unless you are like bugs bunny trying to do the minute waltz in 30 seconds (High lift at 5:1) or adding 1 more pully in the Spanish Burton style it would become 9 or 10 to 1 and you could just pull it out by hand. XD

[@CrusaderSports250]

@@maxgood42 not sure of the point your making, never been a fan of speed recovery as that's where accidents and/or damage are most likely to happen, my winch drives from the back of the gearbox, giving me a four speed in with power out as well, all speeds variable with the throttle, first or second gear being used with moderate revs and top gear for cable retrieval, using pulleys slows all this down even further. As I stated in my original post I see no benefit in something costing more for less flexibility, the fiddle block is in effect just two pulleys in one unit, two separate pulleys can be used to totally redirect the line pull to get round obstacles and give a straight pull and retrieve for both vehicles making them more useful.

[@allanhugh2044]

I have an Isuzu NPS 300 with a 7.725kg winch, this looks perfect, where are these available from? Actually looked at the clip again and you have given the place to find them.

[@L2SFBC]

Check Red Winches on FB and the web, they have Aussie outlets too. Yes, the NPS300 is exactly the sort of truck I was thinking of this product.

[@wellmasters3326]

Depends where you are but www.red-winches.com

[@chriscole3538]

Thanks Robert. Fiddle blocks / block and tackle systems provide great mechanical advantage for sure. But, to move a truck 20 feet, you're going to need at least 100 feet of line thin enough to fit through the fiddle block set. I have a Unimog U500 with a 15k lbs. industrial hydraulic winch with 1/2" line and rubberized eye. Will that fit through the fiddle blocks? What size (diameter or MTS) soft shackle fits through the fiddle block? For example, I'm assuming with the 24T you can at least fit an appropriately rated soft shackle through the fiddle block to hold that potential load. Thanks again.

[@L2SFBC]

Hi Chris, excellent questions thank you, don't have all the answers as yet, but: - 14mm max diameter for the rope which is around 20,000kg breaking load (not WLL) - yes re lots of line, I'd recommend 50 to 70m (say 150 to 200ft) of rope. Not a bad idea to keep the rope permanently rigged with the two blocks, saves a bit of time. - don't know about the max shackle diameter I'll post when I know more, have asked the questions.

[@chriscole3538]

@@L2SFBC Thanks Robert. 14mm is really close to 9/16" and that typically has a spliced Minimum Tensile Strength (MTS) of 37,900 lbs. (Plasma 12 strand) which is about 17,190 kgs. So, I reckon that certainly that should be more than enough for a 15 - 20 k lbs. winch. Question becomes that with 14 mm rope, your soft shackle needs to have a MTS of around 189,500 lbs., (five times) which would be about 3/4" diameter double leg soft shackle. So the hole in the fiddle block set for the soft shackle would need to have an ID of around 40 mm Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks again.

[@L2SFBC]

Hi Chris - answer for you: "The bottom ring will comfortably accommodate a 9mm soft shackle, ours have a MBS of 100kn, the rope will only see 1/4 or 1/5 of the load so even with the FM-24 at 240kn the 9mm soft shackle exceeds the MBS of the FM-24, there is a school of thought that if the user wanted to introduce a fuseable link this is the best place to do it but I need to do more research on a suitable smaller soft shackle for that. The top ring accommodates a 14mm soft shackles with ease. For the FM-12 I recommend out 10mm soft shackles at 160kn MBS For the FM-24 I would recommend our 14mm soft shackle with 360kn MBS. "

[@chriscole3538]

@@L2SFBC Thanks so much Robert, most appreciated! 9mm - 10 mm soft shackle is close to our 3/8" (9.5mm) soft shackle that has an MTS of 42,000 lbs. Yours are at 100kN, which is about 22,400 lbs. about half the capacity of ours of the same diameter line. The FM 24, if I understand it correctly, is a 24 metric ton unit so about 53,000 lbs. rated capacity. The winch line load would be about 1/5 of that so around 10,600 lbs., which our 5/16" line with an MTS of 11,600 lbs would handle. Assuming you can use the 10mm soft shackle at MTS of 36,000 lbs. on the bottom anchor, then the bottom anchor is limited to 36,000 lbs with the recommended 10mm soft shackle. This would be the fuseable link you referred to. If I have if correct, the 10mm soft shackle in the bottom ring will see 4 times (42,400 lbs.) the winch line load while the 14mm top ring soft shackle (about 81,000 lbs. capacity) will see 5 times the winch line load, so the top soft shackle is certainly capable of handling the fiddle block FM24 rated capacity of 53,000 lbs. Would I be correct is concluding that the bottom soft shackle would part (fail) at about 85% of the fiddle block rated capacity? If this is the case then the fiddle block capacity should be rated by its weakest connection point, which is the bottom soft shackle. Now if our 3/8" soft shackle (42,000 lbs. MTS) was used instead of your 10mm soft shackle, then it would meet the rated load capacity of the fiddle block without a fuseable link. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[@L2SFBC]

Hi Chris hopefully this answers the queries - l2sfbc.com/more-on-the-4x4-fiddle-blocks-forces-and-minimum-rope-lengths/

[@chuckjohn4178]

Great info I'm just wondering where is the steel cable at? I see most winches and most all wreckers have steel cable not rope. What's the big difference I'd think steel cable is better more durable. I haven't had trouble with steel cables n blocks

[@L2SFBC]

Recreational people use synthetic because it is lighter and safer. Less durable isn't a problem for infrequent use not time constrained. Commercial people may use wire for durability.

[@ridgerunner106]

I hate to say it, but synthetic is strong.

[@L2SFBC]

Synthetic rope is stronger, lighter and safer than steel. It isn't as robust if cared for. That's why most recreational users run Synthetic.

[@natashanagy1117]

Hi Robert, just wondering if you do private house calls for fiddle boxes? Interested

[@L2SFBC]

My rates are reasonable and depend on the box in question and its packaging.

[@robertfrancis9439]

Maybe I missed something but this "fiddle block" seems like nothing more than a poorly designed block & tackle. There's a reason why the original 2500 year old design of the block & tackle works and is still in use today.

[@teamidris]

Yes, someone managed to reinvent something that they perfected on sailing ships?

[@ridgerunner106]

Ever had an old time block and tackle twist up on you? Fiddle blocks stay flat with each other.

[@guyk2260]

Stupidly expensive as well .....£100 materials ....£400 marketing .

[@sharkeyist]

“Whos this for?” People who like shiney expensive things they are never going to use.

[@johndowe7003]

👍

[@tacticalant3841]

It gives a mechanical advantage so not taxing your winch motor so much, you can run longer between rest.

[@cdnbcn6164]

I think if you used it once it would be worth having.

[@brendanwood1540]

This is ancient technology. Anyone who wants to move any super massive objects and maintain control without the expense of giant cranes, or heavy machinery. A simple wood beam and column frame with enough of these and you can move anything. Want to cut down a tree and move it around for easy cutting? Maybe there's a heavy object you need to move in the garage? Maybe you got a water tank to lift up to a tower at the cottage only accessible by boat? Want to lift some gear up a mountain? How about the boulder in the way of the swimming pool? A tonne of bricks? Sore back?

[@fedcoin1602]

Some of us work in jobs where we us dirt roads daily and we don’t have cell phone coverage? Why are you watching this or commenting. Isn’t there a video about finding a park spot at the mall you should be watching?

[@carlcarlamos9055]

Does the layout of the fiddles preclude rotation of the apparatus making the whole thing useless? Thanks.

[@L2SFBC]

no

[@josephtucciarone6878]

The affect of 2 movable pulleys would be 4 x 200kg = only 800 kg or no movement. 1000 kg/4 = 250 kg needed from the winch to move the 1000kg. Why do you count lines? It is the # of movable pulleys. Here it is like having 2 giant movable pulleys.

[@kentg86]

I've got a 5000lb wire cable winch. Could I use these fiddleblocks if I run my cable out and tie into a synthetic line that runs through the system so as I draw in my wire cable the mechanism goes through the synthetic cable? More simply stated, can I use a wire cable linked to a synthetic rope for this? I figure this way my 50ft cable will provide for 10ft of recovery travel?

[@L2SFBC]

Yes you can do that

[@teamidris]

What the hell is that mongtastic anodised blingit supposed to be? I need one of these, a chocolate teapot and a hand brake for a canoe :o) Seriously though, if you can’t get a hook through it then it ain’t much use. Also, if you have four ordinary swing snatch blocks you can easily run them to the same or different anchor points. Also also with separate ones you can rig forward and then to the side if you need to go forward and not roll down a hill side.

[@ridgerunner106]

No, just use a single through for a directional pull. These dont twist up like a block and tackle does. Hook will pass through. The sides have internal guides to keep rope or cable on pulley. This is the cats meow, son, get you one. I will be looking for the video.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

Robert, if you keep 50-75m of rope permanently rigged through a pair of these seperate from your winch, can you use something like the round device with ears (don't recall the name of it) to pull 25m, let your winch back out, take up the slack, and pull 25m again as needed? What do you fasten to the end of your winch rope to attach it to the 2nd rope? How do we non-permanently attach a hook or whatever?

[@L2SFBC]

Not entirely sure what you mean, but yes you can pull in 25m of line at a time, but at say 5:1 that's only 5m pulled, less allowing for slack. Can you elaborate please?

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

@@L2SFBC Yeah, I really wish I could draw a diagram like you do so well. Imagine pulling 25m of logging chain with a hi-lift jack. It's only a meter long, so every time you reach the end, you release tension, unhook, take up slack, rehook, and pull in another meter, and repeat the process to the end. That doesn't work with ropes. Obviously we don't knot them together. Is there a clamping or gripping device to temporarily connect your 25m winch rope to the working end of your 75m tackle rope? We need some way to pull in much more rope than will fit on the winch, right?

[@L2SFBC]

OK think I see. Yes there is, the X-Lock - see my video on Pulley Efficency to see how I use it to shorten ropes. However in this case it'd be pull it all in, then re-rig and pull out...no real way around that if your drum can only store say 30m or rope and that's it.

[@ridgerunner106]

alpine butterfly loop will work.

[@8Jory]

Is there any real difference between this and a standard pulley block? Other than the pullies being moved around to look fancier?

[@L2SFBC]

Not really

[@om617yota8]

Don't forget the extra markup! £495!

[@ridgerunner106]

Yes, a block and tackle twists up very easy. Twist causes friction. Fiddle blocks stay on the same plane with each other, not twisting up.

[@lee99lee99]

i'd like to see a video about this.......how do you feed your rope cuz it has a loop at the end?.....you need to get the hook everytime off?

[@otm646]

Something like this you would leave rigged with it's own synthetic winch cable. You then simply attach it to the vehicle and the winch system with conventional hooks or soft shackles.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed!

[@L2SFBC]

Feed rope through

[@lee99lee99]

@@L2SFBC show us,you did it interractive,but how it looks like in reality?

[@lee99lee99]

@@otm646 he said something different.....that the winch rope you have to feed through.....impossible as long as it has the hook on.Agree??? His video is not plausible

[@mikeykeyes]

Fiddle blocks- now you can stand there doing nothing but fiddling around LOL

[@kevinduprey9326]

Will this make a 3000lbs winch able to pull a full size ram 1500 ? Is this hard on winch internals or only cable equipment? Thank you sir ....

[@L2SFBC]

Yes probably but depends on badly it is stuck

[@maxgood42]

I was thinking X-Bull ....haha but yeah probably

[@ridgerunner106]

Its not harder on anything but you.

[@gregphillips1998]

The problem that I see is that you will need 300-500’ of rope to use it. It’s rare that you are within a short reach of an anchor point and another vehicle if you don’t have a winch.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes!

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

No, you need lengths of extension rope to reach from the far block to the anchor, which may be the same or slightly larger than the winch rope. Once you move up from Jeeps and Toyota sizes, you begin to have more room for rigging and less for a proportionally larger winch.

[@ColinRichardson]

These are great.. Can you do a video about the 'minimum' amount of rope needed for moving the distressed vehicle some set distances? Say for example moving the vehicle 1m, 5m, 10m, 20m ? I am not sure what is more realistic? Maybe you can pick your own distances. Obviously as the winch pulls, it pulls the snatch blocks/fiddle blocks closer and closer to the point they would touch. So maybe let's add a buffer zone? So maybe that the snatch blocks are not allowed to come within ½meter of each other? Again, what ever you believe is more realistic? This would obviously give an extreme advantage to the spanish burton setup so I guess we would need to have 2 values for this, both the winch minimum value and moving line minimum value. I don't believe static lines need to be addressed in this? Since they would be situational variables that don't impact the calculations? Or am I wrong on this?

[@L2SFBC]

Yes you need 5x the line (plus a little bit more) to go x of distance, so say 55m to travel 10m. I will be conducting a full field test soon as I can. Correct, static lines aren't important for this.

[@ColinRichardson]

@@L2SFBC I guess I just got confused with the Spanish burton setup then? The winch distance is tiny but do you just transfer 3/5ths of the length needed to the moving line?

[@L2SFBC]

With Spanish Burton you have a 4:1 advantage. The first line is 2:1, and the second is also 2:1 so total 4:1. You need to pull in 4m of line to move 1m.

[@L2SFBC]

Video will be coming when I get a set, in the meantime -> l2sfbc.com/more-on-the-4x4-fiddle-blocks-forces-and-minimum-rope-lengths/

[@ColinRichardson]

@@L2SFBC Nice diagram

[@aland7236]

Is this pretty much a flat version of a 4:1 block and tackle setup? Potentially plus 1 of course.

[@L2SFBC]

Basically yes

[@aland7236]

@@L2SFBC Awesome! Thanks for clarifying. I saw the other fellows comment about the B&T wrapping up on itself and this seems like it would help mitigate that happening.

[@nocogarden]

With that much force multiplication I wouldn’t even need a winch.

[@PNWJEEPER01]

There's no way I'd ever need this for recovery while off-roading. And the price?!?!?! For light trucks, buy a snatch strap or recovery rope, a good winch that's a tiny bit overkill for your vehicle's weight, a couple of decent snatch blocks and be done with it. Assuming you follow the "don't wheel alone" rule and your partner is also prepared, that means you have at least two good winches and 4 blocks at your disposal. If you need more than that you're in bigger trouble than you think.

[@L2SFBC]

Yep !

[@magnus5356]

Two snatch blocks per vinch is overkill alone!

[@L2SFBC]

Not always...

[@PNWJEEPER01]

@@magnus5356 2 blocks is the minimum required to to anything other than a single-line redirect or a double-line straight pull. It's the responsible number, imho; especially if you're alone. My current recovery bag kit is 3 30,000lb blocks, 6 3/4" d-rings, 4 soft shackles, 3 tree straps, a 20ft snatch strap, a 20ft tow strap (can double as a anchor/tree strap), a 30ft recovery rope, a choke chain for moving things like fallen trees (can also be used as a sand anchor), 2 pair of heavy leather gloves and a headlamp. I carry other recovery gear in addition, but that's what's in the bag.

[@AndreasBrOlesen]

@@PNWJEEPER01 how large are your bag??

[@supersportimpalass]

The main problem I see is you'll run out of line as most winches are only capable of holding 85'. That means with 5 lines you can only be a maximum of 17' apart. The amount of scenarios where you can actually be that close together is virtually zero. Two snatch blocks would be good for almost any situation and you have a more usable length of 28'. Big waste of money imho.

[@robertsomerville5377]

@Random look at the ratings of your tow straps or extension straps , nothing is rated safe if you multiply the winch 5 times.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes only metal shackles are likely to be 5x MBS over WLL.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed

[@Approtechie]

5 lines don't make 5:1 MA, only 4:1 since one line only changes the direction without giving any mechanical advantage. Count your lines and subtract one. Try it, you'll see.

[@L2SFBC]

Depends how it's rigged, either 4 or 5.

[@Approtechie]

@@L2SFBC Ok, I think I get it. The winch is essentially another pulley and the extra line is being taken up on the spool. The 6th line is not seen, but is there, thus yielding a 5:1 MA. advantage.

[@L2SFBC]

Correct. Depends which way it is rigged too. Can be used at lower MA.

[@danburch9989]

This is a different way of arranging the pulleys in a block & tackle. They've just separated the individual pulleys onto separatre shafts. You string the rope throught this the exact same way you would in a block and tackle. It might store better (flatter).

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed!

[@ridgerunner106]

It operates flatter too.

[@woody4u247]

you said to expect 6-10% frictional resistance from each sheave pulley.. there's 6 sheaves when using two of these together.... by that 6-10%... doesn't that equal a potential 60% frictional loss??

[@L2SFBC]

See my current video on exactly this and the 60-50-40 guide for 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1 SB rigs. Actual data!

[@gardnep]

Just buy two double sheve? pulley block.

[@ridgerunner106]

They twist up.

[@Georgiaguntraining]

Audio is pretty bad, bassy and distant sounding. Great subject coverage, though.

[@andresvilla8651]

The mechanical advantage Is 4 the other line only chance the direction ir the force

[@gacherumburu9958]

👍

[@Wolfie280694]

I want.. guess you sell as a pair them

[@L2SFBC]

Yes you'd need a pair. With only 1 you may as well have a snatch block.

[@jackiefelker8263]

That's a lot of rope.

[@petewerner1494]

A lot less working parts in a double snatch block and a lot cheaper.

[@NikkiTheOtter]

And a lot lighter too.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes!

[@ridgerunner106]

Fiddle blocks dont twist up like block and tackle. That is worth a lot of money.

[@jakemustian99]

so basically this would be the same as 2 double blocks right?

[@L2SFBC]

Yes or a Spanish Burton

[@ridgerunner106]

Yes, but it wont twist up like those old style block and tackle.

[@MattCantSpeakIt]

Thats the same as a double snatch block... its 2 pulleys on either end, It's the same as having 2 pulleys side by side (double snatch blocks). Considering the price of these... And the length of rope you need, plus having 4 pulleys with loss instead of 2 (same applies to a pair of double snatch blocks which are also pricey, I'll give you that), do you think it's worth it compared to a simple Spanish Burton? Just carry two ropes (or a winch and a rope), and two simple pulleys, and that's it.

[@L2SFBC]

No I'd just use the SB

[@joeashbubemma]

I understand why it's called "fiddle". Stop fiddling with yourself. It's cold, muddy, windy and I'm tired and hungry. That's why I bought a 6K winch. If I need 5:1, my winch is either too small or I done f'd up.

[@Dieselmd2008]

They need to make a small version for us atv guys

[@jakemustian99]

just get 2 double sheave pulleys with hooks

[@kenbrown2808]

so it's a really complex double block.

[@tunafish3216]

Not feasible for the regular off-roaders.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed best for the big trucks

[@vanntasiam155jbl2]

How long till you get this field tested...

[@L2SFBC]

Soon as I get one on test, and no date for that set...was agreed I could do it so hope that comes off soon.

[@vanntasiam155jbl2]

@@L2SFBC amazing.

[@philliphaessig]

Wonder how well this would work for cutting down trees?

[@thornyturtleranch6152]

We need these in the USA. You damn aussies got everything good for playing in the mud. Good deal. Ah, but we still have guns so I guess it's a trade off. And yeah I know some folks in the Bush can have em for pigs and stuff and gathering croc eggs.

[@L2SFBC]

Hah...we don't gather croc eggs and we hate mud! No need for us to carry guns either, nothing we need to kill when we're in the outback 👍

[@oldSawyer]

If you used One Big Pulley & One Small Pulley on each block you would have the same 5:1 ratio using One Less Pulley and One Less Bearing causing Drag on each end. Or just use two Small Pulleys mounted side by side on a single shaft (obviously with separate bearings so they spin independently) for a smaller overall size, still having the same 5:1 ratio using 4 pulleys instead of 6. . . Yeah, Complicated Looks Cool, but it results in more drag from the 2 extra pulleys.

[@farnhamsteven3677]

You're absolutely correct OldSawyer. The pulleys can be stacked on the same shaft, and this has been done, in a centuries-old technology called "Tackle blocks," or sometimes called by the more academic and prolix, "Block and Tackle." According to Wikipedia, invented by Archimedes, so it's only two-thousand-plus-year-old technology. Therefore it would seem that a "Fiddle Block," is just a means to take an earlier, simpler, and more elegantly executed idea, and complicate it just a little, so as to enable posing as the inventor of it, and collect some patent royalties in the process.

[@ridgerunner106]

Yeah, but the friction of the block and tackle twisting up is more than the extra pulley drag on the fiddle.

[@oldSawyer]

Good Lord @@ridgerunner106 we need a LAUGH EMOJI for That BS. . . I've been using Block & Tackles for well over 50 years, as did my Father and Grandfather Before Me, and this is The FIRST I ever heard of one "Twisting Up" . . . If something bizarre like that ever happened to you it's because you weren't using it right. . . LOL . . . If I had to guess, I would say you're part of the Marketing Team trying to Peddle This Snake-Oil Contraption by making the usual False Claims

[@ridgerunner106]

@@oldSawyer No, my dad pulls out my great grandads block and tackle every time we skin a large animal. Which, one day I skinned eleven, so it has been pretty often in my 51 years. Fiddle blocks will stay on the same flat plane in relation to each other. I have a big block snd tackle just because I came across all the parts to make one. I guess you can hang a block and tackle on the ceiling and lift some sort of load. Then set up a fiddle block and lift a load. Then get back to me with the results.

[@ridgerunner106]

@@oldSawyer You remind me of when my dad was a kid and the power company was putting in the first electricity in the area. Grandaddy couldnt see any use for it. They had oil lamps for light, a wind up alarm clock, a battery radio that would last all year, a bucket and rope at the well. Who would need such a thing as electricity? Well, once they got it,. light with a flick of a switch, plug in clocks, radio and a TV, a well pump...a compressor at the barn yo fix his own tires, lights at the barn. Yep, he made sure that electric bill was paid on time.

[@AA-cb7vz]

you would have to be amazingly stuck to need that much pulling power I would advise not parking in drying concrete 😂

[@L2SFBC]

That's hiliarous!!!!!

[@craigquann]

Just spend the extra cash for a better winch.... I can see a very, very limited amount of situations that this would be useful.... especially if you need that much line.

[@MrDINODINO74]

413 £ ? only for 1 ? Nice job.

[@MichaelSmith-eq5lf]

buy a winch that will cover your weight and one snatch block, save your self all this weight and headache

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

The fly in the ointment is that a winch near stall is drawing an enormous amount of current from the battery. With pulleys, the winch motor can spin longer at a lower power level and sustain the effort.

[@carllemyre2289]

Ratio is 4:1 not 5:1 calculate number of puly

[@L2SFBC]

Depends how it is rigged

[@slowboat6021]

£495.00 each I'll pass thanks,

[@ianrobinson8518]

From 4:16 to 4:30 the video shows a setup similar to a snatch block. It states the theoretical MA is 2:1. This is incorrect. There is no MA as the fiddle block is used in the illustration as a fixed anchor pulley which acts only as a redirection. The vehicle is merely pulling itself. The winch only has to overcome combined friction, maybe some gravity if on a hill, and whatever is holding the vehicle back (mud, sand etc). If the vehicle mass is resisting with 500kg of force, then the minimum force on the anchor would be 1000kg. This is physics but it is not mechanical advantage. Mechanical advantage only exists when there is at least one travelling pulley.

[@L2SFBC]

"Mechanical advantage only exists when there is at least one travelling pulley." l2sfbc.com/you-can-get-mechanical-advantage-from-a-snatch-block-that-doesnt-move/

[@ianrobinson8518]

While I now agree there is MA of 2:1 in your illustration, your explanation of its source is amiss. The MA doesn’t come from the snatch block which is no more than a redirecting pulley. It comes from the winch itself which is in effect the travelling pulley required. It’s a travelling pulley (because it’s the vehicle to which it’s attached that moves) which redirects the line to itself where it’s anchored.

[@L2SFBC]

I agree with your comment and that's a good way to put it...but the fact is, the pulley doesn't travel and there is MA. It's such a common misconception I wrote the blog post. Every month or so someone states it.

[@ianrobinson8518]

@@L2SFBC​​⁠The winch (the “pulley”) does indeed travel. It’s attached to the load (vehicle) which travels. The snatch block is an anchored pulley. If it weren’t for the MA of the winch and it acting as a power source, the snatch block couldn’t do anything useful. Its purpose is to redirect the forces from the winch back to the vehicle so that the moving vehicle itself can generate additional MA. BTW The opposite situation works too. If the vehicle was hauling a log with a snatch block attached, the winch does not provide MA. In this case it’s the snatch block because it’s attached to the moving load (log).

[@einfelder8262]

For something like a Patrol or Cruiser, these devices are useless. They cost $1000 or more for two, they are heavy and bulky to carry around, and absolutely no-one has a winch capable of holding 70 metres of dyneema. You can now get winches rated at 17,000lb for these vehicles. My Patrol has a 12000lb winch and easily drags me out. Only once needed to double line it and that was at the end of a 3 hour session up a muddy rutted hill and the batteries got low.

[@kenneychappuis1853]

Looks like nothing more than a snatch block , just redesigned

[@L2SFBC]

Yes

[@CrusaderSports250]

And repriced.

[@ridgerunner106]

And not twisted up like block and tackle do.

[@seanseoltoir]

Basically an expensive version of a block and tackle where all the ropes are in the same plane... Interesting concept, but quite overpriced...

[@CSGATI]

A pulley system, nothing new here.

[@brunoterlingen2203]

Robert, have a look at this, perhaps something similar for Oz would do well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jampmWaDotaIpdU

[@jakemustian99]

1000 AUD or 780 USD ???? for heavier less usefull snatch blocks that don't even open. just go to harbor freight and get 4 single pulley snatch blocks for $20 each. rated at 20,000 lbs. this product is a rip off

[@tonyroba]

MA at 4:21 is 1:1 , check your laws of nature ...

[@tattooedmillionair]

have another look

[@tonyroba]

@@tattooedmillionair so this one is not correct ? kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHjYnZevqKiJoKs .

[@tattooedmillionair]

@@tonyroba I believed a straight pull would be 100% and by using 1 or more pullies it reduces the effort, but as it has been clarified, I was wrong (thank you) and 1 pully only redirects, you need 2 or more for weight reduction. Thanks again!

[@L2SFBC]

That's not right. One pulley can give you MA of 2 to 1 or 1 to 1 depending how you rig it.

[@tattooedmillionair]

@@L2SFBC My thoughts were along with what you said... it is too early for me to sort this out in detail :-) need more coffee!

[@stevecallachor]

Your physics is wrong!!! You've got the upper and lower blocks confused!!! The mechanical advantage is 4!!!!!!!!! Stavros

[@L2SFBC]

Depends how it is rigged 4 or 5 or even less

[@lostagain2992]

But not really cost effective.

[@bermudarailway2411]

Complete waste of time.

[@youtubeuser1052]

I'm over 50 years old and I've never ever gotten stuck. I wonder why KZbin keeps recommending videos about people who get their vehicles stuck. Seems like videos for stupid people to me. I do see a use for block and tackle, but don't understand why morons get stuck.

[@L2SFBC]

What's the key to success, driving offroad and never been stuck? You're the only one I know who has never been stuck, and I'd like to know the secret please.

[@operation4wheelz]

I never once got stuck once in my SSV redline… but I’ve been stuck a million times in a twin locked, crawler ratio, sway bar disconnecting Rubicon. The same reason I would on occasion end up in a gravel trap on a circuit… It’s simple… if you’re not having crack… you won’t have any story’s to tell.