What's Happening With Multipathing? - War Thunder

[@ifhousesweremonkeys]

FOX 3’s are opening pandora’s box unfortunately. This is already a problem in top-tier GRB: with the range and power of the average MBT main gun, the moment one team gains momentum they push the other team all the way back to their own spawn with no real chance at a comeback. Happens in like 70% of games.

[@PvtPartzz]

Ground rb is a broken game mode at its core. It worked when tanks that could snipe from one spawn to the other were slow and had to figure out the ranges on their own. With fast MBT’s and laser rangefinders, it’s just a tdm for 60 seconds before one team ends up getting spawnkilled. (Buying that premium leo2a4 was dumbest waste of money I’ve made on this game)

[@ВячеславФролов-д7я]

IMHO that's not the main problem. I've mained ground rb in 2015-2019 and I can clearly see the difference and the way it goes in perspective. The main problem of ground rb is its maps. If you look at original maps, all of them have complicated terrain that provides cover in every part of the map. If you look at every map added after 2019-ish, they are extremely flat comparing to older ones. In original wt the main cover people used (and still use in older maps) is terrain features. There are a lot of small hills, dugouts, valleys, e.t.c. When playing today, your primary cover are buildings, because you can usually drive for 500m and won't see even the smallest hill that can cover your tank's hull, let alone provide you with a full cover. Main problem is: when you are covering behind a hill and drive to take a shot at a prepared enemy, you only expose a portion of your turret (which usually has the best armor anyway). Also you won't appear in a certain determined spot, that can be pre-aimed, knowing that you'll appear exactly at that spot. So you could drive into a prepared enemy's sight and have descent chances of survival against a defending enemy. You could kill an enemy camping your spot with descent chances. Nowadays, we are forced to play mostly flat maps and take cover mostly behind buildings and street corners. When you drive around the corner, you expose your whole tank, with all its weak points. So camping guy gets enormous advantage over the one that tries to play actively. And once people have pre-aimed all usual routes, there's literally nothing you can do to push them away from their position P.s. extremely low engagement distances for top tier tanks, that can casually shoot at 1500m is also a big problem

[@triparadox.c]

We need revamped Ground and Air mode. The current death match style is just plain boring and mindless.

[@fire_drake12.arc.24]

​@@ВячеславФролов-д7я honestly the only good old map is Sinai (not sands of sinai), Even at top tier. The only issues i see it having is the middle area and A point area (if i remember correctly) dont have enough cover and you can shoot people from your spawn trying to leave their spawn, Generally the C side of the map is best. Its good because its small and generally has enough cover to move and is also open enough to promote sniping too. Its NOT perfect, but it seems to be consistently the only map i actually like. The main problems with almost all maps more so the newest, is like you said mostly flat design; but the additional issue is alot of maps rely more on soft cover than actual hard cover. Vietnam is a great example. Gaijin seems to be making more and more maps that are almost entirely soft cover (not to mention some of those same elements being inconsistent, as in they can be shot through on some maps but the same thing on the other is completely solid cover) which not only gives complete advantage to ULQ players, but also means you are basically never safe at any moment no matter where you are. As well as some maps having massive open fields or areas that have nothing to do with the objective and are literally just empty space used to B-line straight to spawns and begin spawn camping, not to mention several maps with high positions literally IN SPAWN that let you see over the entire map and/or directly into the enemy spawn. Maps need to be more rectangular with a focus on soft-forcing players to stay around the objective. I cant remember the name of the map but its a 2024 map, and in one of its 3 cap modes its just one side of the canal and the rest of the map is blocked off (it has like a shopping mall on the B point you can go inside of) and the way they blocked off that map is great because it made it more of a rectangular lane shooter and it forces you to play the objective. It has enough room to allow flanking too but enough restriction to also make B-lining to spawn camp nearly impossible. Its only issue is that during that version of the map, they didnt also block off the MASSIVE covered field to the West side of the map, which DOES allow people to B-line to spawn; that needs to be blocked off too, but its a step in the right direction, only being able to be spawncamped immediately from 1 side of the map is better than being spawn camped immediately from 2 or 3 sides. Ground maps need to be a fine middle ground between a 3-lane shooter and an open free roam shooter. The map i mentioned is close to being a perfect mix of the two. I needs to be restricted enough to make the map rectangular and encourage the formation of a clear front-line and objective play, but also open enough to allow flanking, but not so open that you can "flank" all the way to the enemy spawn at the beginning of the match and just rack up free kills. Because im sorry, but ignoring the objective and basically taking a scenic route straight to an enemy spawn ignoring other enemies along the way too, is not "flanking" nor is it fair play. The ability for that to happen is almost entirely a result of incompetent developers, only some of it can be chalked up to people being assholes. If maps were made right they wouldnt be able to do it to the cancerous extent that it is done now. TLDR: Stop making mostly flat maps with 0 hard cover that is just covered in soft cover with bushes (that literally just give ULQ players the maximum advantage) as well as inconsistent props that are soft cover on one map but hard cover on another, and stop making maps that are giant circles with massive open and covered routes to B-line to the enemy spawn; Make maps rectangular and restricted enough to encourage objective play, but not so restricted that flanking is impossible, but not so open that you can also have a straight route to the enemy spawn and spawncamp the beginning of the match.

[@claing17]

yeah exactly the game is total dogwater rn

[@stanvandenadort4710]

The main problem with multipathing goes back to the gamemodes. The same style of gamemode that is put 32 players into a small meatgrinder map and repeat, just doesnt work anymore. After more than 10 years ,they just simply have to adjust the gamemodes and allow for better and more interesting gamplay than these cramped meatgrinder maps. If they dont change the gamemode, reducing or removing multipathing is unfeasable and air rb will become unplayable.

[@tamamonomae7465]

There should be an option for people to play with guns only so the dogfight sweats can fly circles around each other

[@btoiscool]

It is entirely their fault by not prioritizing what they claim the game is in their ads, a combined arms simulator

[@Opachki69420]

@@btoiscool hence the "CAS problem" because ground RB is the ONLY mode to actually deliver anything close to combined arms(yet it also has a huge host of issues like spawntraps and revenge bombing)

[@rintohsakadota]

We need tactical map and mission for each type of player in each team

[@rintohsakadota]

F22 ADF is a good old game example

[@ItzCPU_]

You should not be able to dodge a missile by flying in a straight line close to the ground. Especially considering missiles are quite easy to dodge using basic defensive manoeuvres.

[@josezuniga4968]

Do you want cheese with that wine?

[@ItzCPU_]

@@josezuniga4968 Yes my good sir 🍷

[@josezuniga4968]

@@ItzCPU_ lol in all seriousness, the fox 3 are pretty easy to chaff off so yeah I kinda think it should be removed or changed to make the player respect the missile and its range.

[@skilz2kil528]

@@josezuniga4968 yep, they are easy to chaff and also drastically easier to defeat kinetically compared to the current meta radar missiles we are already dealing with. Dealing with these missiles without abusing multipathing is not that hard.

[@tubby921]

And so you want to have absolutely nowhere to run from any radar guided missiles? Sure it can be annoying to have your aam miss but it’s much more irritating to not be able to do anything. think of the stock grind

[@WOLFER.]

The spawn camping issue can be easily resolved if gaijin would upgrade the Airfield SPAA for 10.0 up to top tier, 20km minimum, the whole point of spaa is to protect you from aircraft, not to mention at top tier I also say the total player count should be reduced, 10vs10 gets extremely overwhelming, id say 6vs6 or 8vs8 is perfect, now keep in mind this is only for TOP TIER only, either way, this is just to fix the overwhelming issue, but this would also allow players who can't afford an upgrade have a smooth top tier experience and reduce the frame drop issues, I use to have this issue, but I've upgraded, but there are many players who either can't upgrade, or refuse to.

[@WigSplitters]

yeah, but gaijin would then need to fix base camping

[@WOLFER.]

@WigSplitters what you mean? If your talking about about airfield I've just stated that, but bases, as in the bases the randomly spawn, that makes no sense, so what do you mean? 🤔

[@WigSplitters]

@@WOLFER. no, so in air rb, if there is 1 player left and he is winning on tickets he can camp the base until time is up and win, this is only and air rb issue not sb, so if his airfields spaa makes him invulnerable to anyone trying to kill him it promotes 'base camping' which no one likes

[@WOLFER.]

@WigSplitters I'd say, for rb it's more complicated, I guess don't upgrade the spaa for rb, but for sim this would be a necessary change, I was thinking maybe a system that detected repeating patterns over the airfield, not grid square just the airfield, like a bubble of sorts, if a player is inside that said bubble for more than a minute he I'll get a warning, after 30 seconds if he doesn't not leave then its a kick, this system would also tell if the player is on the ground or air, the bubble would by 2km apart from each side of the airfield, say 2km in front of it and back, and 2km from the sides, and an altitude of 20k feet, think of like a huge cubed over the airfield, that's basically what I mean by bubble, now this would work, even with rhe upgrade spaa, but I'm guessing this would be a too complex system, so yh keep the rb spaa as it is, maybe Increase the range a bit or something, but as I said SB spaa absolutely needs an upgrade.

[@WigSplitters]

@WOLFER. yes I agree with sim spaa should be better

[@Sky_King7]

Well said! There are valid concerns for removing it, and keeping it. I think a healthy balance is to reduce it. Otherwise these missiles are DOA and the game doesn’t change or advance at all. Not looking forward to another 3 months of invisible FOX-2 deck hugging spam.

[@ItzCPU_]

Simply reducing the range won’t help in situations where it is abused

[@TheConnorM]

A healthy balance is needed, but if it is still at a point in which people don’t want to learn these true tactics that these aircraft, systems and tactics are built around are the ones we will see complain about it if it is changed. Personally 50 seems reasonable and I. Sure we will see a difference in how everyone or at least most people play, All I’m going to say last is free my F-15C with these bullshit 4 amraams only crap, everyone knows that it could carry 8 if someone really wanted to

[@sometoastxd]

​@@ItzCPU_ It will because the only multipath abuse that can actually throw off modern radar missiles would require hugging flat ground at a height of 5-10 feet. Not feasible in 90% of situations.

[@jackgamer6307]

If you hate bvr, play air arcade. A gamemode built to be a furball

[@N-A762]

facts ill take realism any day

[@shadowclanshadowops]

preach ✅✅✅

[@0zai_i]

Nobody said that problem is the size of the map it's rare to get kills with radar missiles because everyone knows to fly low the maps are small

[@pn2422]

If you want realistic BVR join the air force.

[@ferrous3262]

@@pn2422 people pushing for realism are just larpers don't care how it will affect the game

[@Caern123]

A reduced multipathing height would be nice. As you said...some BVR focused planes really lose a lot of their charm right now. Maybe they should do another Test Round like they did with the Fox 3 earlier this year.

[@lil_sweden2323]

RN on dev server there are f16 players with only 6ARH missiles, how will reducing multipathing help ? Literaly no counterplay against ARH missiles then ?

[@maximumvibe9355]

@@lil_sweden2323 just fly cold lmao and learn actual bvr tactics

[@LowEndTest]

If they remove multipathing the level 15 premium warriors will get clapped and gaijin doesn't want that.​@@maximumvibe9355

[@TheConnorM]

@@lil_sweden2323chaff has a more prevalent effect on any radar system in game, tactics such as notching and so forth also play major roles in breaking locks.

[@kRIEG_elf]

Just curious, where do Harriers fall? Besides the Harrier II variants, They underperform in just about everything but IR missiles. The FA2 that's supposed to come out is easily the worst air frame at its BR range. Even downtiered but now it has AIM-120s. Is it a BVR plane now?

[@ccclll987]

I replied to the topic. Hopefully we see multipath removed or reworked. And I dream of bigger maps and smaller team sizes for top tier.

[@СергейНикольский-я2ц]

Devs said that current servers can’t run bigger maps so we prolly won’t see em soon((

[@XYVTN]

This is also an issue that makes ARB extremely boring in top tier. There are simply too many players in ARB top tier. If they were to reduce multipathing in 16v16, that would mean that the rounds would end even faster, because defensive flying against such a large amount of ARH and SARH missiles is near impossible. BVR at high alts suffers the same issue. Too many missiles/players, hence why noone partakes in BVR , because the moment you pop up on the enemies radar you have at least 10 missiles on the way. It is so much to the point where the RWR constantly bugs out, because there is too much going on. This also makes chaff near useless most of the time, because everyone is just low on deck so you have practically no reason to take chaff with you.

[@rubotok3703]

defensive flying really only works when you're only dealing with 2 missiles tops fr like there's only so many ways you can turn, but you'll be locked by at least one person

[@PvtPartzz]

I think 30m is far too generous. The distance from the ground where multipathing can affect the missile should be like 10-15m which would put that level maybe just above the tree line. Flying at 30m is incredibly easy, even on the more uneven maps. The spawn killing issue could be dealt with by adding more advanced SAM systems to airfield defenses. Give each airfield a Pantsir or the stationary SAM systems they teased in the trailer.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

Bingo. The multipath effect on an AIM-7M is 5m over water, and higher over terrain. The min altitude of the R-27 (including multipath and general ground clutter) is 20m. If they don’t want to go to the effort of properly modeling multipath and clutter together, then just set missile spoofing at 20m and call it a day.

[@randomuser5443]

Plus, they can add a sead option so you can actually fight to kill the guy on the runway

[@Franseven]

the reduction of multipathing (or elimination of it since modern missiles just don't care about the ground interference reflection) (which i advocate) will also force gaijin to update many maps that feature a stupid flat area in the middle with no cover whatsoever. Additionally, to reduce the spawn killing concerns (which are already non existant since by the time a fox 3 has done 80km you are well out of your airfield and the missiles is inertial guidance only) we could see airfield AA track and attempt to interecept incoming missiles.

[@AeroTurtle]

Multipathing should be reworked. Not removed. Awesome video!!!!

[@TheHarbinger827]

Someone plllssssssss make sure the devs see this Edit: As someone who plays the gripen along side other aircraft, i can confirm the play styles of flying low and avoiding radar missiles.

[@gregc9344]

Solution for spawn camping, CIWS on runways to intercept missiles fired at people taking off.

[@brodykloster2102]

Some people in the comments complaining about it lmao, the literal point of modern combat is to fire missiles in bvr, you shouldn’t get to the merge and if you do then something goes very wrong, if you want less missiles then go to a lower br, sim and air rb become A LOT less effective because they add these new BVR MISSILES but can’t even use them in bvr lmao

[@hubril7921]

mfw F-35 merge with mig21 (he was flying at 100m against a aim-260)

[@ItzCPU_]

I think along with reducing the range which it takes place It’s intensity should also be reduced, This would make it so nullifying these missiles is not guaranteed if no other defensive measures are taken.

[@asesino22full]

With multi-pathing the F4F ICE is dead on arrival

[@jackgamer6307]

So are all phantoms.

[@thatoneguy1741]

I mean it’s a phantom I don’t know what you were expecting, multipathing or none 💀

[@fboyg91]

It’s a worse F-14B at almost 1.0 BR higher. It was going to be DoA regardless of Fox 3s.

[@jackgamer6307]

@@ADGMagic They probably will add it, just look at the ICE, Su-25 series, A-10s, the new A-7 that's coming with the anti ship bomb...

[@RienRocks]

@@jackgamer6307I’ve been getting multiple aces in the F4E and F4S. But a phantom at 12.7 is truly dead on arrival. Even if it was the only Plane with fox 3s.

[@xxragexx0275]

THANK YOU. People will HAVE to learn to defend missiles!! And LEARN to pick your fights !!

[@Hadgerz]

Or more people will just leave sim and ruin teams in RB by basebombing and lawndarting

[@WOLFER.]

I agree 👍

[@ninjato5611]

My dudes got a selfie as his KZbin gamer account

[@xxragexx0275]

I'm cute doe right?

[@ninjato5611]

@@xxragexx0275 Only on days that end in y booiiii

[@デヴィン]

I think the spawn camping issue can be solved by making air field aa stronger and/or adding spaas that are RANDOMLY generated around the map (randomly so it doesn't force flying the same route each game) and maybe it even changes locations after a bit. This way you have to focus more on situational awareness instead of just flying straight to the enemy airfield.

[@Mibarri]

This is bad idea. They did that when every bomb base had 2 AA that were deadly accurate from 8000ft. Even the ground battles in sim had this. It was horrible. Dogfights rarely happened because the AA would shoot them down before they could engage or during the dogfight. It was really bad when the ground battle disappeared on the map, but the AA were still active. On Tunisia, everyone fought over the water.

[@デヴィン]

@@Mibarri Your missing the fact that this would be at very top tier 12.0+ where you are supposed to bvr anyway. You would have to find a way around it in order to dogfight. Now you also have rwr so you can at least know when it's shooting missiles at you

[@illegalaryan823]

Multipathing should be looked at but what really needs to be looked at is ECM and Jamming

[@MarcelSoares777]

The only answer to this problem is making multipathing even lower on realistic. Something like less then 60m from the ground. Beyond that its fair game and should be locked properly. Anything beyond that go play Simulator battles.

[@cofro3284]

We're quickly getting to the point where whoever gets the first missle out wins. We've got IR missiles that are OP amd we'll have active missles that are gonna be OP. It's already to the point where top tier is who ever has the better missle wins and this just adds onto it.

[@Mibarri]

Agree for the most part. As a US main. I can't go after every target I see. The 27er is just too strong.

[@NoMercyt99]

using terrain demascing is a good alternative: it´s easy to learn how to use it to once advantage and it´s the safest methode to avoid radar missiles so I see no problem in remove multipathing

[@ichosolemanuel6048]

Terrain demascing?

[@syfury3403]

​@@ichosolemanuel6048 Put a montain between the missile and you

[@kRIEG_elf]

Doesn't work on flat maps.

[@rubotok3703]

there's a lot of flat maps, the only method then would be hugging the deck at 15m and hoping for the best

[@SukhoiGC]

Essentially what gaijin did is over model "multi-pathing" when they should've modeled the pulse doppler "notch gate". I don't know how they go about doing their research but it's pretty apparent. Its just that the latter would require more effort on their part, seeing as multi-pathing is not as significant of an issue as it ia made out to be realistically.

[@M0LOCK]

Ppl that do not want the multipath to be removed saying it will be unbalanced...mfs are lacking the basic knowledge of aerial combat and think thats unbalance...only unbalance is their lazy ass refusing to learn tactics...

[@ferrous3262]

has nothing to do with realism and more with the fun aspect If you want realism why don't you advocate for the f14 mig 21 and viggen to have compressor stalls that would be fun and realistic wouldn't it

[@M0LOCK]

@@ferrous3262 yeah it has little clown...gaijin added 80km missiles so your clown ass could make it uselles by flying low...damn nice take you have...

[@M0LOCK]

@@ferrous3262 Theres no fun in it...literally flying low makes you invunerable...damn what an engaging gameplay...only for bacterias like you maybe

[@nercksrule]

​@@ferrous3262 F-14B didn't have the compressor stall issue. Mig-21s and Viggens are shit planes with shit engine airflow dynamics.

[@M0LOCK]

@@ferrous3262 Damn what a fun flying low and being invulnerable...theres not even need to bring radar guided ordnance...

[@NotAnWildPig]

Thank you for making this video and putting this in the spotlight, truly, thank you

[@RoachEatsVipers]

It would be unfortunate to have these new missiles be barely more effective than the fox1s we currently have after all the anticipation. I wont plan on playing the game much longer if the 9m slinging meta doesnt change after almost a year, especially considering us getting the biggest breakthrough of missile technology just to have them be obsolete.

[@ottermanuk]

They have just reduced it from 100m to 60m in the new Seek & Destroy Update! (19/06/2024)

[@ivan5595]

As someone who only play low tier (not that ungrinded top tier planes are fun to play anyway!), it's still interesting to learn the concepts about how these missiles work

[@Boris_The_Turtle]

Speaking in terms of air rb here, I think the problem is more so the game mode and player count. In air rb you only take off from a singular runway and are almost forced to hug the deck because of the sheer amount of players. Those who do BVR in air rb are capped at 5.5km altitude because the contrails give you away immediately. The way air rb is setup doesn’t help, it is an elimination game mode with no focus on objectives. A reduction in multipathing would be fine, but many other things need to be changed first. Outright getting rid of multipathing would be too punishing, at least with how air rb is laid out currently.

[@tamamonomae7465]

Just give airfields better / more diverse AA networks, onion of defense type shit, long range radar guided missiles to create stand off, medium range missiles to actually potentially hit stuff, close range missiles / manpads and guns to hit fast and low flyers or those who fly directlly over the runway, and most importantly, an active defense system that would intercept some incoming ordanance fired in the direction of the runway

[@WigSplitters]

then they would need to nerf base camping

[@tamamonomae7465]

@@WigSplitters that is nerfing base camping, can't kill you if nothing they launch can get through, I'm talking adding a C-RAM/ CIWS as well as short range highly maneuverable SAMS capable of intercepting missiles and bombs

[@rainsilent]

@@tamamonomae7465 No. It is encouraging base camping more. Base camping is players sitting in base AA and letting base AA kill the enemy team for them. Something Gaijin is on record saying that base AA is not there to do but hasn't done anything about it beyond ticket bleed after players sit on the runway for a given amount of time.

[@СергейНикольский-я2ц]

Another way is to make it work similar to how BR bracket changes in SB. 1 day MP is off/heavily reduced, another day it is like it is rn. (Btw I still can’t understand why the BR bracket system wasn’t implemented in ARB, it would immediately fix compression and constant uptiers issues)

[@PvtPartzz]

Did anyone do any real testing during the dev server with SARH missiles? I feel like we may have overlooked how the multipathing changes will have affected not just the top tier of gameplay but a lot of our third gen jets as well.

[@flak8842]

i don't have that problem in top tier RB and SB but having at least to multipath is the best way to fend off the Radar Missiles because let's face it i won't be flying at like 10m off the ground just to make multipathing altitude effectiveness very shallow

[@averageyoutubeenjoyer9000]

This game became awful the moment modern vehicles we're added and you can't change my mind.

[@uladzimirhryharovich8852]

sorry but without multipathing top tier prem byers wont be able to afk spam space button and that will lower gaijins income so yeah multipathing will remain as is for next year or two im pretty sure

[@TeamValkyrie2023]

It leads to unengaging game play? 😂 no, it actually forces you to engage rather than sling 8 missiles across the map, land, reload and repeat

[@animeweeb2595]

What?

[@rubotok3703]

​@@animeweeb2595 he's talking about how F14 Missile Bus players currently play

[@animeweeb2595]

@@rubotok3703 oh

[@TeamValkyrie2023]

@@rubotok3703 and how most the brain dead are going to use fox3, difference is instead of it being 2 to 4 f14s doing it, it's going to be 12 to 14 f16s, mig29smts, etc doing it all at once

[@xenojiiva7300]

I 100% agree with this. I enjoy SB but it's a bit of a problem trying to play and everyone is hugging the deck.

[@Someguy7488]

Introducing jamming would help

[@thebestoneevermade]

I think a good idea for high/top tier rb is that they make it like ground rb, where enemy aircraft dont show up on screen so youre forced to use your radar and LOS more to find and engage enemies. Just a thought, dont attack me if you dissagree pls

[@kRIEG_elf]

I mostly agree that in Air SB it would most likely benefit the gameplay. Not so sure about Air RB though. I don't really think ARH / SARH missiles are suitable for game mode that has one spawn to begin with. And if they want to remove multipathing, then they should add electronic countermeasures.

[@GRNbull98]

i can understand its necessity in air rb but it really has no place in sim.

[@bluefox9436]

Multipathing also has no place in Air RB... it makes everything outside good dogfighters completely useless... just add a bit more cover to maps like Sinai and everyone should be able to play according to his strengh

[@nelsonh.9651]

solution, everyone goes to sim, and limit sim player count to 8x8 or lower

[@major_kukri2430]

Terrible solution

[@Juho-uf8si]

I think most of the people whinging about these things have not played at all or atleast extensively in dev server using those missiles and just compare stat cards, these missiles we get in the update are not that great on long range and even less if you dont lead it with your radar close to the target if someone has any idea what to do, theyre pretty easy to outrun flying fast too.

[@dubstepmachine4430]

Does this mean Gaijin has used Top Gun has a genuine reference lmao

[@Mibarri]

Lol I get it.

[@jinkxer1]

they should probably limit it to top tier only tho cuz 12.3 and below and theres a plane like a mig29 which will dominate every other plane in bvr

[@ATS_i_piss_on_G00gle]

They have no way to balance fox3 missile.The game is NOT balanced as it is,and is really bad at top tiers.Its not just the planes and weapons,but is also the type of gameplay the maps we have(in air RB) encourages.And the nr of players on each team.We need a BR decompression,different map layout and lower nr of players/team if you want to have a balance at top tier.

[@patriktoth6258]

They have. They can make a tutorial about defensive manouvers for example.

[@keno5839]

the problem with this is always gonna be how the devs ballance the missiles each nation has access to, shitty missile balance is how we got into this mess in the first place, if we get another r27er situation with no multipathing it forces the every plane on the enemy team into a defensive position leaving yours with a huge advantage. at the end of the day i agree multipathing is kinda aids but seeing this games recent history with missile balance i dont trust the devs to remove it in a way thats good for the game.

[@danielmorgan1118]

I 100 percent agree. I’m so fing tired of fireballs , and the low flying crap to evade radar missiles. It’s boring and repetitive. Then why even have bvr weapons.

[@WigSplitters]

you realise the furballs and low flying wont go away with no multipathing, people will still use terrain and there will stilll be furballs

[@animeweeb2595]

@@WigSplittersyeah it won’t go away but there’s a higher chance of a radar missile hitting those who ground hug

[@WigSplitters]

I agree with all of this, except you cant make a statement that this will increase flight dynamics, people will always be flying low using terrain, and never high because of the advantage it gives long range missiles

[@oswisso1196]

Idc about spawn camping (very rarely i get spawn camped) and i think that multipathing should be removed from doppler filtered SARH like they do in real life, (this is out of my memory so take with a little salt) but i remember seeing the specs of a Sparrow (i think it was the skyflash) that was rated to hit a target at minimum of 24 feet, which is like 8 meters or so

[@BikZom]

well what's the point of even having fox 3 missiles when on flat maps they will be as useless as the current radar ones we have

[@gialby]

I agree, but realistically, when we are in a 16vs16 case, where all of the planes have Fox 3 and are not bots, how are you supposed to dodge the wave of fox 3 approccing your location at mach speed? I'm already having trouble crossing the middle of the map with only a couple of planes that aren't bot and are carrying fox 3s (totally my skill issue, but still)

[@rainsilent]

Realistically you aren't supposed to be able to "just dodge" the better SARHs that are currently in game. The only way you really should be able to defeat them is to either go cold (turn away) at a long enough range that they can't hit you or notch the source radar (fly ~90 degrees to it) so that it's radar can't properly track you.

[@major_kukri2430]

​@@rainsilentexactly

[@rainsilent]

@@SA-ks3ex You aren't. You aren't supposed to get yourself out of really bad spots that you were dumb enough, or unlucky enough, to put yourself into. If you were dumb enough to do something incredibly dumb you deserve to be clapped for it. If you get unlucky and caught out then just accept that things didn't go your way through no fault of your own and move on. As for the bad RWR on some jets that will stay high? That is something else and the best answer there is to come in 2nd line or play safe. It might not be "cool" or "fun" but it is the smart play. If you don't want to do that that is entirely on you and entirely your fault for any consequences that come off of playing dangerous. Either work around the limitations of your aircraft or don't fly the aircraft at all. Or just accept that you are playing it dangerous and accept the consequences. Just don't play it dangerous and then cry when you get clapped for it.

[@MythicPi]

Ive been pushing for the removal or reduction of multipath for 2+ years at this point, ever since my buddy and I who spread BVR knowledge in one of the big WT community oeiginally found it. Its such an overpowered faultless mechanic that we originally thought it was a kind of game exploit, a bug/mistake. But the devs let us know it was 100% intentional and for "balance". Imo, multipath has been the single most detrimental thing added to the game for top tier jets in WT history, and it should have been removed long ago, back when the scariest thing you could have fired at you was an AIM-7F. Now were on the cusp of early fox 3's and its still here, rotting the game from within. It needs to go, and players need to learn, because when we get the next step of IR missiles, you will NEED your spacing tools or you will die.

[@ferrous3262]

with how the maps are mutlipathing needs to stay

[@blackjack8697]

I think with the addition of fox 3s is a pro for multipathing, it keeps players on there toes, dont relay on just radar missiles that will genuinely make the game more boring and less action heavy when you just sling bvr missiles, sure its not realistic but its a arcady game, ir missiles arnt hard to defeat either.

[@ninjato5611]

I agree, but they won't listen and I doubt they will make any changes. I have very little faith in Gaijin as of lately. There are so many things they could do to improve SB gameplay immersion and realism, but all they care about is the new toy hype and how much money it makes them. Currently 100m is the balance for all BVR missles and radar. It should be changed to 30m - 50m. Add SPAA with better range in SB to mitigate airfield strafing/camping. It's that simple. But I doubt anything will be done.

[@n1coR]

Wont ever change in Air Realistic, maybe in Sim.

[@georgebrown3867]

Would love it to be removed but we will have to see

[@The_LeMi]

But isn’t multipathing real thing?

[@joakimjensen309]

It is but from the information we have available (legally) even missils like the AIM-7F would not be affected by multipathing

[@The_LeMi]

Does dcs have multipathing?

[@uberschnilthegreat22]

I believe so but it only seriously affects aircraft with more primitive radars, such as the MiG-21 and F-4E, and the target aircraft has to REALLY be hugging the ground, where by that point ground clutter becomes a much larger issue for those old radars if the fight isn't happening over the ocean

[@major_kukri2430]

As someone who's played DCS, multipathing isn't nearly as pronounced there as in war thunder. Flying close to the deck would put you at a sharp disadvantage due to the nature of missile kinematics.

[@skilz2kil528]

Current multipathing has created a terrible and massively unrealistic meta for too long, and at the very least in sim where people specifically play for higher levels of realism it needs to be changed.

[@House_of_Schmidt]

New game modes are desperately needed for Air but yes multi pathing should be nerfed for sure.

[@jch90z]

What does multipathing mean? I still don't understand what term is being referred to in RB.

[@RienRocks]

This is extremely simplified but basically, let’s say a F4J launched a missile at Mig23 using a PD radar. If that mig23 gets too close to the ground, (really close) the radar signals reflecting off the ground would fool the missile into going under the aircraft and into the ground, missing the plane completely.

[@danialhasan5395]

Nimbal, how do you fly sim air battles? I have a joystick and even VR, but I'm stuck behind the takeoff/landing bug for sim battles

[@nelsonh.9651]

never heard of takeoff landing bug ever wdym

[@major_kukri2430]

Look at youtube tutorials on how to play sim

[@TheDougsSB]

does need sorting, going to get tired of firing off a fox 3 and the braindead potato on the receiving end just hitting the deck as soon as they get a single rwr ping, in rb this isnt too much of a problem, but in sim, it will be a pretty large problem, especially since most players fly on the deck currently in the current live server, it will only get worse with these fox 3's hitting the live. Anyone claiming multipathing to be a good feature are just lazy and cant actually fathom learning how to defeat these missiles correctly without touching trees.

[@Flamnuar]

В чем проблема то? Не нравится внизу, играй в высоту. Опять кто то не смог в игру и хочет кнопку "убить всех".

[@major_kukri2430]

The problem is that the player flying low enjoys the advantage of having a functional missile if their opponent is flying at a sensible altitude. That's counterintuitive to how beyond visual range combat is supposed to work with pulse doppler radars.

[@jackgamer6307]

Multipath only makes the furbal meta worse. Bvr focused planes like the F-4S, that can't hold up in a dogfight are made useless. However, so do ARHs. So I would think all ARHs should be limited to 12.7 or even 13.0, since 11.3 jets don't really have the capacity to counter them whatsoever

[@ponchoremerize5508]

Disagree. Ground radar clutter is a REAL thing that would affect even modern aircraft. The only difference is more modern aircraft have more computing power to filter out that ground clutter.

[@r3d648]

ahh the micro

[@NoMercyt99]

Do you ever heard of Snaking ? No because many wt players have no idea how modern BVR combat works. (no front) There are many aspects involving in it, avoiding fox-3s takes a lot of skill and I personally think that just flying low to avoid missiles is a tactic used by "utter skilless Morons". Gajin should remove multipathing and introduce ECM. Almost every top tier jet in the game has real live ECM capeabilitys and early fox3s were really easy to dodge by using ECM. ECM alonside chaff and notching are a great way to defeat missiles electonically and tactics like cranking, turning, diving, or beaming a creat ways to deafeat missiles kinematically But obviously the player size has to be reduced and more changes to the gameplay has to be made in order to balance top tier. Btw. Snaking is a last ditch tactic to avoid missiles when normal kinematic defeat may not be possible. It ivolves turning cold and and doing a series of S-turns. If you would like to learn more about how BVR works look for _Tactical Empolyment BVR combat_ it really shows how a games can implement BVR in a good way.

[@MIG31foxhound74]

Thanks i have a look

[@rubotok3703]

the current settings for rb would have to change before multipathing gets reduced. Imagine being locked and fired at by 20+ BVR Fox 3 Missiles with reduced multipathing. you may be a cranking, snaking, diving God, but you won't be able to dodge them all, one will always seemingly find it's target

[@NoMercyt99]

@@rubotok3703 that's why reducing the player size to 8vs8, introducing more spawn points to distribute players over the map, introducing data link for situational awareness and ECM as well as having more mountainious and hilly maps could change the gameplay positively.

[@rubotok3703]

@@NoMercyt99 I completely agree, unfortunately Gaijin haven't changed how their gamemodes play since the game released

[@wmouse]

So if you’ve got 20 missiles coming your way, I think it’s safe to say you made some poor life choices.

[@excalibur_maga6188]

Multipathing needs to go or be heavily reduced.

[@Miratesus]

The people who don't enjoy BVR and want to keep the unrealistic multipathing got 11br's of 100s of aircraft to enjoy dogfights with Or just have them play Arcade, The entire point of Realistic is a realistic setting with easier controls.

[@Boris_The_Turtle]

Isn’t multipathing realistic?

[@Miratesus]

@@Boris_The_Turtle not at 100 meters, more like 7-20 meters.

[@majorborngusfluunduch8694]

​@@Boris_The_TurtleIts exaggerated in its current implementation.

[@stormjet814]

If you actually read the gamemode description, the “realistic” part is just referring to the plane physics😂

[@MrStrielok]

Multipathjng should not be a thing long ago

[@chiskeik27]

Maybe remove it in sim and keep it in rb?

[@stebonblamcard1390]

If this is a problem why the fuck are most of the maps flat holy shit people we need better maps

[@MrARNOLD]

What would you expect from F2P game?

[@lil_sweden2323]

Yeah, just reduce multipathing and let there be players with only 6ARH missile loadouts without and counterplay xddddddddd

[@R3llyman]

I dont agree think about the lower tier planes or planes with out BVR missiles allowing them to fly low allows them to have a hard counter to the planes with better BVR lets say you remove multipathing your in a F-16 early no radar missile now assuming your in a full up tier with Fox3 flying and you know how to defend you see missiles being launched at you. you notch pop chaff now you have no way to fight back meaning the planes firing don't need to go on the defensive they can just keep shooting until they run out and your stuck playing missile dodging simulator rather I prefer making BVR a option you can fly up and engage with other planes in BVR but if you can't then you can stay low and wait for the carnage to end

[@major_kukri2430]

That's an issue of compression and learning to notch

[@R3llyman]

@@major_kukri2430 even then you have to notch at the direction of the radar now what if they are coming from different directions

[@major_kukri2430]

@@R3llyman then you either turn cold or get cooked, my brother.

[@nomikomaryu5049]

So i recognized a few errors in here. When you spoke of the F-4J vs Mig-23MLD, thats nit a multipathing issue thats a ground clutter issue. 3rd gens usually have bad radars and ground clutter causes radar missiles more than not. Now replace that with say F-14 vs Gripen or even F-14 vs Mig-29, thats where multipathing becomes the problem. Now multipathing might be existent in 3rd gens but the easy fix for that is ground clutter buffs or nerfs depending on irl capabilities of these radars. Also ground clutter should be there since that was an actual problem in that time period also was a viable tactic for evasion. Now the other thing on Spawn Camping, i think the point the guy was trying to make was the fact that spawn camping wouldnt be as viable anymore because the meta isnt at spawn or uo close furballs however mire of at range midway in the map. And what he says is true, theres at least 3 AF to spawn from, if ya get tired of getting kills my IR missiles before takeoff then switch spawn.

[@jackgamer6307]

The F-4J/S and Mig-23ML(D) actually have decent radars out of all the 11.3/3rd gen bracket. If you play them, you'll see the radar lock shift down. The 23 is more affected by ground clutter, but the F-4J's radar, from personal experience, is quite good at rejecting ground clutter in PD mode

[@major_kukri2430]

You're misunderstanding. I don't know if you've ever used the F4j, but it has a velocity mode capable of seeing low-flying, fast-closing targets.

[@jackgamer6307]

@@major_kukri2430 Thanks to gaijin's meddling, most radars will automatically switch to normal mode when a target has low relative speed, making you lock ground clutter instead

[@major_kukri2430]

@@jackgamer6307 that's gay. Even for pride month

[@jackgamer6307]

@@major_kukri2430 it's actually pretty useful...at altitude. But it's an actively harmful "feature" in this ground hugging furball meta

[@sky_raider_2354]

Warthunder will never have missile combat like DCS and thats a fact if you want realsim go play that. Warthunder is a nice RNG game where missiles SOMETIMES work and SOMETIMES DONT. makes it frustrating and fun

[@bgwarior]

Because the devs are trash they have developed trash. Nothing new here, how can people be mad.

[@nichozmiloz2228]

balancing is the problem in first place i realistic war game doesn't need balancing tho in real life you can't custom or balance a war look real live war tho like palestine and israel their war are not balance but its how realife works life always never balance for fair tho

[@MERCENARYREVY]

I got tired of Gaijin And the BS way they're running their gains, including where thunder so I deleted my accounts with them. And have found other games that are similar that are better. Because they actually care about their customers.

[@explosivecommando9100]

People saying things like you should know how to dodge a missile and so on. Lets say italian AV-8B+ throws a missile to an F-104 or a MiG-23 post nerf. HOW IN HELL DO YOU DODGE THAT WITH THAT LIMITED AMOUNT OF CHAFF, ITS NOT ONLY ONE MISSILE BTW, I DO NOT THINK THERE WOULD ONLY BE ONE OF EM.

[@a.e.richardson218]

You are forced to go cold

[@explosivecommando9100]

@@a.e.richardson218 tornado. Freaking tornado bomber.

[@explosivecommando9100]

@@a.e.richardson218 would be funny.

[@P3S4R]

the Italian AG-8B won't be facing mig23s and F104s bud

[@explosivecommando9100]

@@P3S4R 12.3 bud. Knowing the bad luck of 11.3 full uptiers must be funny.

[@unfazedmc5734]

real

[@Mibarri]

Multipathing. Does not work against the 27er. I've tried everything ( multipathing wise) from flying 30ft - 100ft off the deck, turning, not turning, all while chaffing. I still get hit. It must be nice flying a russian plane. Just continue to push cuz even if you fire at the same time, your missile hits first because of the speed. Anyone saying it's a skill issue hasn't flown long enough against this missile in sim. I main US. It's a nightmare trying to fight these things on flat maps. It's far more clear in sim than in AIR RB. The shit I have to pull to get close enough to dogfight the russian aircraft is ridiculous. In regard to multipathing. It won't change anything. The 27er will still win. The fox 3 won't change that. Cuz they get it, too, and stat cards lie. This is more venting than anything. But i have the same thoughts every time I die to one.

[@Mibarri]

Edit: So after watching the guy who posted the 27er missing 6 times. I would be curious to see a video of him flying 30ft off the ground. Maybe I'm flying too low? Maybe 30ft is too low. Could use some insite.

[@skilz2kil528]

@@Mibarri I'm one of the people who did the testing included in the post, we tested for an hour and did it across all alts around the multipathing threshold using ER, aim54 and 7m, with basically all missile approach angles and consistently found these results; Missiles (including the ER) will get defeated consistently at any altitudes between 10-95 meters, though above 95 you can still catch the proxy fuze since there isnt enough deviation between you and the multipath induced ghost target and below 10 meters you can still get damaged by the spash of the warhead hitting the ground. This does apply to the ER but it can sometimes present some rare situations where it will still hit you above 10m due to its INS (same as the phoenix and also the coming fox3's too). ER's like the aim54 also have a larger then average warhead too, so you can catch some decent splash damage from time to time a little above 10m. Finally, there is a slight risk of any radar missile accidentally hitting you the closer it is to coming from 90 degree's above you, as it will be trying to hit the ghost target directly below you on the ground and run into you on the way. In general, a good alt rn to defeat stuff with multipathing is a happy medium of around 50m, that way you wont get hit by splash damage and also are low enough to create a large multipathing deviation so the missile wont come close enough to trigger its proxy fuze.

[@Mibarri]

@skilz2kil528 ty for this. Been getting slaughtered lately. Best I've been able to do is a 2 kills for every death. It's really debilitating considering the SL loss you get in sim.

[@skipslash7367]

they should make more realistic scenarios or something because top tier right now is just germany or russia trampling everyone else

[@pbluma]

Russia with nerfed planes and worse missile and Germany with the F4? What are you smoking.

[@skipslash7367]

@@pbluma i forgot people without lives playing air rb exist, go back to your basement you troll

[@P3S4R]

Do you know how overpowered the R-73 will be if we remove/decrease the multipath effect? it will be unable to be defeated, every time I try to defeat an R-73 from an Su-27 by nothing it always hit me, it's Russian bias and if you remove multipath I'll never be able to counter it!!11!

[@devdream9277]

R-73 ?

[@M0LOCK]

Nah you are just dumb...

[@devdream9277]

I guess you meant R-27ER and they can be defeated without multipathing

[@P3S4R]

@@devdream9277 no R-73

[@enesberkyavuz4078]

It wont be removed, it will be less effective. R-27 wont be the wonder weapon you think because you can fire your AIM-120 and turn around. (Plus its R-27(radar) not 73(IR))

[@biohazardindustrieswr697]

Ah yes, take away the one place you're safe from radar missiles. And don't give me any of that "defensive maneuvers" sheiße. Try notching when there's 7 missiles coming at you from all directions

[@biohazardindustrieswr697]

@@TheHarbinger827 See the last sentence of the og comment

[@Bombert54]

That is the reason why he wants to try it in sim first where you usually dont have those furball like engagements

[@a.e.richardson218]

Radar missiles are already more reliable in sim and it's nice

[@skilz2kil528]

Frankly if you over-committed so hard that you've got people coming at you from all sides then you killed yourself long before that moment and are dead regardless of multipathing or not.

[@rubotok3703]

​@@skilz2kil528 in air RB situations will happen like that anyway, regardless of where you position yourself

[@michaelstodovski2219]

People that want multipathing removed or nerfed are utter skilless Morons. They just want Free Kill Missiles at this point and a point and click adventure game.

[@P3S4R]

xddd

[@SimplySinful]

"They just want Free Kill Missiles at this point and a point and click adventure game" Any AIM-9M carrier be like.. (they also shit themselves on merge if their invisible missile doesn't connect)

[@thespacemanfil]

Free kills against anyone lacking skill, like you.

[@hunterjones225]

Found a lawnmowing moron.

[@NoMercyt99]

Do you ever heard of Snaking ? No because you have no idea how modern BVR combat works. (no front) There are many aspects involving in it, avoiding fox-3s takes a lot of skill and I personally think that just flying low to avoid missiles is a tactic used by "utter skilless Morons". Gajin should remove multipathing and introduce ECM. Almost every top tier jet in the game has real live ECM capeabilitys and early fox3s were really easy to dodge by using ECM. ECM alonside chaff and notching are a great way to defeat missiles electonically and tactics like cranking, turning, diving, or beaming a creat ways to deafeat missiles kinematically But obviously the player size has to be reduced and more changes to the gameplay has to be made in order to balance top tier. Btw. Snaking is a last ditch tactic to avoid missiles when normal kinematic defeat may not be possible.It ivolves turning cold and and doing a series of S-turns.

[@bigtexsa32]

To think that you’re life has no real meaning that you spent a few hours recording and writing this whole post up cause your mad about a video game and it’s game play…..

[@pko6596]

the multipathing only works at 100m if you are in cold aspect lol the guy proposes a change that basically is already here if you are flying towards a missle you need to be below 50 meters above ground already and sometime you get slammed while you are below 20meters simple cause of uneaven terrain

[@M0LOCK]

The background footage already prooves you wrong....

[@pko6596]

@@M0LOCK literally doesnt tho? the 100m multipathing showed is in cold aspect and close range while the clip of mirage dodgning r27's literally shows mirage dodge them at 60mm above sea level

[@skilz2kil528]

the multipathing effect in game works regardless of aspect, starts taking place at exactly 100m radar alt for all missiles and is the same across all terrain - and finally its coded exactly the same for all missiles in the files. But its easy to see why people have so many different quoted figures for it cause there are still some different circumstances where you may still get hit even under this. And there's also a ton of semi-deliberate misinformation around in regard to MP effect rn too. The testing footage in the post in question does a good job explaining how it works in game for both rb & sim(ie its the same regardless of those modes) so feel free to check it out.

[@hunterjones225]

@@pko6596 watch the entire video, posted in the forum topic

[@pko6596]

@@skilz2kil528 never said it works diffrenty for diffrent missles and while yes it works regardless of aspect a front aspect makes multipathing less powerfull since the returns off of the ground are weaker compered to returns of the plane the footage in thr background shows the mirage barely dodge the radar missles despite going head on and perfectly straight at 60-70 meters (we do see the mirage go higher but thats only for a second when they pitch up to fire their own missles) people complaining about multipathing live under the delusion that they are going to be the mavericks out there slamming everyone and dont consider that the core design of war thunder simply does not fit bvr combat in general but especially modern bvr with pd radars and arh missles you want hyper realism? go play dcs

[@toge69]

multipath doesnt work on Fox3s it looks like only fox2 even on ir fox2 what doesnt make sense