What's it like after 10 years?

[@JoshuaHinman-p4x]

Thanks for the comprehensive video. I just won one of these machines in an auction, and am looking forward to implementing many of your suggestions. I'm an aerospace machinist by trade, and I'm excited to see how this machine performs on complex parts.

[@CazualHaze]

Glad it was helpful! I think my experience with mine is Mach3 was ok but there are better controllers out there now. I also think mine is not too rigid, the table is fine but the dovetails on the column are too close to each other hence its flexible. Thats why I added the separate linear bearing, I hope to lose this by adding epoxy granite inside the column and I have toyed with fitting linear bearings to it. Generally I think its a fantastic bit of kit I wont be changing mine as something better is just too expensive. Cheers

[@jsincoherency]

I love the idea of using a sieve as a filter for the coolant. KISS!

[@CazualHaze]

Tried several ways but the sieve works fine, dont let my wife know she's still looking for it! Cheers

[@toast47624]

I too have a Syil x4 and like you modified it a lot. Essentially I have replaced everything but the chasse of the machine. It now runs Masso controller which allows me to use a probe and a tool setter and I replaced the stepper motors with slightly more powerful closed loop steppers. I now have 5000mm/m X,Y,Z. I also replaced the head with a 3.5kw spindle and ER25 collet giving 18000 rpm. I set mine up with high pressure coolant and a cabinet. It is accurate to .05mm if a run a spring pass. Like you the Z dove tail is its weak point and if I push an 8mm end mill things get a bit funky. That said I am astounded how fast you can cut steel 4mm or 6mm end mill and I regularly cut some pretty serious parts out of steel and get exceptional surface finishes. For what I do, I think its pretty good value for money. I run mine most days. People asked me what will I do with it when its finished. Honestly I had no idea really, I just wanted one. Now that I've had it 4 years and its running very good I don't have enough hours in the day to machine all the things I want to make. The downside for me is all the cad time. I have become very proficient using Fusion. I have a manual mill but I got so quick at knocking out quick 3d models and a get it done program I'm way faster at even simple jobs on the CNC. My mill has 5 times the power of the little Syil but the Syil removes material way faster. Its not even a close race. So yes you lose a bit of time sketching and programing but beyond that the Syil will easily get things done faster and far better finishes. If you throw a bolt pattern in there or threading the CNC could be faster by an hour or more. The thing I now focus on is designing parts. I try and get my design work done at night and have everything sorted so when I get to the weekend I can run parts. I made some air cooled cylinder heads for a 2 stroke last weekend and that was a pretty satisfying project. Although the parallel tool path took 3 hours to run the part came out beautifully. I'd say I spend 2/3 of my time designing and programing and 1/3 cutting. Its crazy how fast you can cut parts on a cnc even with manual tool changes. I'm getting more and more confident with 4mm cutters in steel and getting them full flute deep slotting now and it blows me away how fast you can cut parts out. I think I'll move to 4mm cutters more and have them do the line share of the work as they seem to be lasting well and it saves me changing tools. 6mm cutters are typically my go to in steel and alloy roughing out I use a 16mm index end mill. The Syil handles alloy with few limitations. Great hobby.

[@CazualHaze]

Wow you are a lot further down the road than me. I think the biggest limitation of the x4 is the Z axis dovetail arrangement. I added a separate linear rail to widen and stiffen it. It has worked but I am not fully happy with it. The power drawbar has been brilliant, I have made a whole lot of tool holders but have not yet finished them. I will have around 20 when all is done. I am really interested in how you get on with the Masso controller, I am thinking of making a new mill and masso is currently my best choice as it seems to do all we are likely to use in terms of functionality. I also will build a cabinet when I get to move my machine to the new workshop. Thanks for the comment and if you can let me know your opinion on the masso. Cheers

[@toast47624]

@@CazualHaze I'd buy it again. Things that annoy me. The Wifi to transfer files from your P.C to Masso is sketchy at best. It fails all the time and I spend more time than I think is acceptable stuffing around rebooting etc to get it to transfer files and Large files take forever so it s better to remove the USB key and load the file onto it. Fortunately this is not a big deal but if you are tweaking a big file it gets pretty frustrating. I now just use the Masso network and that is quite stable but that too can be finicky to get running. The probing function is good. It would be nice if you could find center using outside dimensions. Z probing is limited by the accuracy of the probe, homing switch, tool setter. I use it for op1 but all other operations I do manually as I have about .05mm accuracy and that is not always good enough. Its pretty bullet proof but I have killed a couple of opto couplers and so moved to a different input. But despite a few mistakes on my part its solid. They do support it well. The forum will get you answers pretty quick and to the point. I have only given in twice and sort help and both times I was done inside 24 hrs. I'd say that's pretty good. I think the workflow and efficiency of using it is good. I'm sure a 10k controller is far better but we are making stuff in our shed. So long as it is not aggravating to use its good. Its not aggravating in any way really. I have had a couple of odd things happen with my Z zero and at the time I blamed the Masso but I had some issue with my tool setter a bit after and so I think it was more likely that or even more likely something I did. Hell for that matter every time something bizarre happens its almost always something I did. Mine is the G3 touch screen setup with 5 Axis capable and in hindsight that was a waste of money. I doubt I will ever do anything 5 axis. Fusion charge for all of that capability. Fusion is good but it costs me $720.00 per year to use it here in New Zealand and that is at about my limit to justify. If they put there prices up again I will find another software provider. I brought my Syil X4 from a guy who never got it going. Sadly he BS me and it never did go. So not only did I know nothing about CNC machining I had a mill that had to be stripped and rebuilt as I had no way to repair the controller/break out board. It was one hell of a steep learning curve. It took me 4 months to get it up and running. Mine only had a 3500 rpm spindle and to my mind its a bit of a mismatch for the machine. That said I have seen a video of a surprisingly heavy cut in steel with I guess 30-40mm face mill. Actually that might have been one of your videos? I don't regret the move to a spindle at all. Sure I have no torque but with carbide cutters it's amazing what you can do with small cutters. To have a draw bar would be nice but the tool setter actually gives me a lot of flexibility. Every cutter I fit into the collet gets measured no matter how I install the cutter and it all works out. In the beginning working out feeds and speeds I broke a lot of cutters. These days I wear them out and I'm cutting more and pushing them harder. I now watch the amps on the VFD and work out if I should go up or down. Its a balancing act between the available power and the rigidity of the machine and the complexity of the part although Fusion does have some tools to help. Learning all of this has been one hell of a challenge and at times just pure determination that got me through. There was a period of 6 months I guess where I just walked away and had a break when I got feed up with issues and inaccuracy. But I got stuck into it a few months ago and brought a new Z Closed loop stepper and installed a Z home switch as well as fully stripping the mill apart and putting it all back together as square as possible. Its now running very well. Its not absolutely accurate. I do have a tiny amount of backlash but it cuts near as dam round holes. I have designed a new bearing holder for the X,Y,Z axis balls screws with thrust bearings but for now I just want to get some use out of it.

[@CazualHaze]

@@toast47624 Thanks for the info I have an old laser cutter that’s got problems with the control board and I have lost the software dongle so I might have a go with a masso for this Cheers

[@CazualHaze]

@@toast47624 Thanks for this a lot of info here! From what you say it sounds like the Masso is stable and reliable excepting WI-FI! I feel your pain with Fusion it was never going to be free forever and once you buy into an ecosystem you tend to stick with it. Thats why I still have a crAPPLE phone! I think if I get a Masso then it would be the control board only so I can run cables to a control panel and a touchscreen but have all the sensors limits etc just run to the control board which I would mount in the electrical cabinet. The shorter the cables the better the noise immunity and so the reliability. If I am reading it right you changed your spindle to a high speed unit I guess one of the 14 -25k rpm jobs. I can say the drawbar has been worth the effort but it has been a lot of effort, hopefully people will learn from my mistakes! There seems very little on KZbin regarding first steps in cnc I too have broken many cutters and burned up lots of HSS cutters. I think one of my problems was the lack of rigidity in the column. I have added a separate linear slide to help stiffen it it works ok but I would prefer to lose the dovetails and put linear slides in. Having said that there is so much work involved it makes better sense to build a machine form scratch. I think with a quality set of linear bearings and leadscrews with hybrid steppers or even full servo drives we can get into the few microns accuracy even in a home shop. I am thinking of laser cutting a steel endoskeleton and filling it with epoxy granite to get away from the cost and difficulty of cast iron. Thanks for the info I hope to get more of this stuff done when the new workshop is finished and hello New Zealand! Cheers

[@toast47624]

@@CazualHaze It seems we have both come to the same conclusion. It's easier to build from scratch than to modify the X4. Despite all the money and the extreme amount of time I have poured into this mill I actually think its good value for money. I'd say its cost me 15k by now which is in reality stuff all and it produces some very nice parts. Its reliable and does nothing weird (anymore) and I trust it to machine combustion chambers in expensive chainsaw cylinders (now) etc. Yesterday I was marching 416 Stainless flat bar and with the right 4mm end mil it carved its way through that 6mm deep 1mm step over no worries producing a beautiful finish cut. The Spindle is an er25 18000rpm Chinese thing and it has been awesome. It will run at 2000rpm with pretty weak torque. So drilling 6mm holes in steal is a challenge. That said I now use carbide drill bits and spin then at 70m/min and use full retract to keep it cool and It drills holes fin. I can run a 16mm 2 flute indexed cutter in aluminum and it a bit of a beast with that and removes alloy at a very high rate. I also use the 16mm to face cut steel but I can only go about 1mm depth of cut. I too have moved all electronics to a cabinet. I have had no issues with interference. I did use shielded cables and grounded them.

[@ki4tuv]

You should look into upgrading the controls to Centroid; the Acorn controller is about $350, and is light years better than mach3. I’m actually going to try to buy one of these mills in a few days and am planning on doing that to it. It’s also got an input for a proper spindle encoder, so you can do feed per revolution as well as rigid tapping.

[@CazualHaze]

Hi Ki4tuv, I agree Centroid looks a good choice, there are a few systems out there now I am only using M3 because the mill came with it and does not use anything else. Given the choice I would go with something more modern and hopefully reliable. Good luck with your refit let us all know how it works out. Cheers

[@petergoose8164]

Interesting comments. I have an X4 with the straight sided head casting. I bought it not working and immediately ran into the support/documentation issues. Mine has the same stepper drivers as yours but a brushless dc spindle motor and driver. The Y stepper is mounted out front. It seems the electronics in early Syil machines were changed constantly during production runs without any corresponding updates to documentation. I have had mine running fine for a few years albeit placing little demand on the machine. Recently the (unobtainable) LCD display failed which is a bummer because I can't control speed via Mach3 so I have to guess at spindle speeds. I am planning a refurbish and am thinking hard about Masso. The spindle motor is a major obstacle. The new Syils as you say are intended for production envirnoments and hopefully their support has been upgraded to match.

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks Peter, The actual display for the lcd is an off the shelf part Rs Farnel etc all sell them you need a 20x4 display they use a protocol from Hitachi if memory serves. Your spindle motor is a pain mine is a simple 1kw three phase mains motor with a suitable vfd. It should be an easy fix! Let us know if you do upgrade it would be good info for everybody. Cheers

[@petergoose8164]

@@CazualHaze Thanks Dave. I've struggled with this for a while including posting on CNCZone. My display has 4 digits on left with for, stop,rev vertically on right. It uses ht1621 driver. I bought a 6 digit 7 segment display with ht1621 but of course it displayed incorrectly.

[@TheElderlyBiker]

I sourced a new LCD panel for my X4+from china (either Banggood or AliExpress) and cost next to nothing. I can fish out the part no if you want as I still have the old one.

[@petergoose8164]

@@TheElderlyBiker Hi Matt. I think x4+ used different panel (with different driver) which is the one Dave refers to. These are still available. The data sent by pic on control panel are different in this case. It is a rabbit hole.

[@toast47624]

Hi Peter I run the Masso on my X4. All in all I'm happy with it. Its far from perfect but given its price point it's pretty good. Having the probing just makes setup a breeze. Also I swapped all steppers for closed loop and I have read some comments saying they are no better than open loop but my experience is they are vastly better. BUT you can lose a few steps and get about .4mm out of position if you a pushing them too hard. I wasn't expecting that. I very rarely have that happen but it can.

[@Thebowber]

I changed from Mach3 to uccnc controlling the drivers via a UC100, it's been far better than Mach3 but I don't know if it would run all your extra bits, I just use a basic mill (80s Denford Easimill) with an mpg and 3d probe attached.

[@CazualHaze]

Hi Thebowber I think you are right would end up with a major rebuild. Cheers

[@MotorsportDiesel]

I had once contemplated using Mach3 on a knee mill, I do not remember if there were shortcomings. Ah yes it just hit me, rather, it was a lathe that had PWM servo drives and Mach3 didn't support it. So when it came to the knee mill, I had already spent my time from the lathe investigation in Linuxcnc, so I went that route instead of Mach3. I have just completed 2 LCNC conversions, the knee mill and a Fadal VMC20 machining center with a tool changer and 2 speed spindle gearbox. I think Mach3 has the same inner workings of and older Linuxcnc version EMC, although it is made for Windows. I don't know if it is the same, but in LCNC with a VFD you simply scale the rpm to the 10 volt analog output and can run it open loop where the PID is internally controlled by simple scaling, or with a spindle encoder you can do the same in open loop. Perhaps that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but with an encoder you can do both open or closed loop. I have quite a bit of experience with PID loops, as we use them in the machines we build to sell, and we design our own software and must tune each machine to maintain setpoints. This experience was not very helpful in trying to go closed loop PID on my spindle, I found it so frustrating, that I just set it up open loop as a sensorless vector drive. It will run accurately from 10-6500 RPM, checked with a Mitutoyo tachometer. So there my settings are both in the software and in the VFD. As a side note you may look into LCNC, I find it to be a very good CNC controller and it should easily work with those parallel port cards natively. I used a $10 5 axis CNC board on my knee mill of that same port type, and it has been working flawlessly so far. Or as a better option, if that machine of yours is step and direction for the drives you could look into a MESA 7i76 board for LCNC, it has loads of input and output pins, they also offer an ethernet version. There are also plenty of UI's to choose from like Probe Basic and Qt Dragon HD, best of all LCNC is free, and well supported. Finally: I like your videos, keep up the good work. You have almost encouraged me to build my own touch probe!

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks Motorsport Diesel, I had looked at Lcnc I feel its a good way to go when my breakout board dies. Until then I can going with the current setup. It is however quite frustrating trying to get the spindle to rotate slowly its very erratic speed wise under 1000rpm! i must get a scope on the pin to see what's going on as access to the vfd is really difficult at the moment with he machine backed up into a corner. The touch probe has been really useful and more than worth the effort. Cheers

[@PeckhamHall]

Hemingway sells an X3 rotary increaser for spindles for around £160 if I remember right, which would make your spindle tooling fly. Don't know if it's any good, but for the price, it wouldn't cost too much to try it out!

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks for the info! I would make it a pain to change tools though!

[@DaveNorthWest]

Are you able to start/stop and change RPM of your spinal from Mach3 on your SyilX4? I've been trying to figure it out for a few weeks now and its driving me insane? Have you had any luck? Thanks

[@CazualHaze]

Hi Nick, I am away for a few weeks so can’t have a look into the x4, but the spindle is under full control. If I remember correctly there is a direction pin on the D25 connector and either a pulse width modulation or 0-5v dc level pin. I think it’s Pwm! Your 3 phase motor driver will need to be set accept whatever type of control you are using. There is also a setup in mach3, base frequency for the pwm output pin etc. I do think mach3 is a pretty average bit of software it works but I find if you make a control panel as I did getting it to work smoothly with mach3 is difficult. Sorry I can’t help further at the moment. Cheers

[@DaveNorthWest]

​@@CazualHaze No no that's great to know. Thanks for the response. I've watched all your videos and its great you made them. I like the ones on your building a power draw bar. I want to to the same. I've only had my Syil x4 for a few weeks now and got everything working in Mach3 except for the spindle. When M3 is ran it does nothing and otherwise have to turn it on manually during code runs along with setting the RPM manually. It works but I'm going to need help if you have the chance. But ok ill try and figure out the 0-5v pin and configure it. Thanks

[@TheElderlyBiker]

An interesting review. I wonder if Syil changed things re the spindle? My X4+ has full spindle control from Mach3 (or maybe you have an issue) That said, I'm not sure what motor I have. As your's is 3 phase, maybe they could not interface the inverter within the cabinet with Mach3? I can email you my XML file if you want. The wiring in your cabinet is so much better than mine (which is an earlier model - blue) Although I have poor access to the back of the machine, I recommend putting a piano hinge on the rear of the cabinet. (also I added a UC100 so I can use USB - has been very useful)

[@CazualHaze]

Hi Matt, I do have full control of the spindle its just non linear and erratic speed wise below 1000rpm. When I can get to the back of it ( new workshop) then I will try and do a video on all the boards in mine its got one hidden in the top of the cabinet near the top of the column, sneaky that! I think a UC100 would be a very interesting thing to try out. My pc is a HP Z400 workstation 32bit and should be great at running the X4 but it has a habit of stopping the pulse driver. The X4 then just coasts to a stop bloody frustrating I can tell you! Cheers

[@AdrianMooreRGBracer]

Hi , I've been watching your channel for a while, I have the x5 version of that machine ... same castings but R8 spindle and linear rails. I'm running it under Mach 4 and I'm currently fitting it into the later Syil floor standing x5 enclosure if you want to compare notes?

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks Adrian, If you have drawings etc for the cabinet that would be great. Cheers

[@AdrianMooreRGBracer]

@@CazualHaze I can happily wing you some photos/dimensions over if have a preferred email address. Also while I am using the same motor control board as yours I drive it via a ethernet smooth stepper, which in turn also has a suitable alternate motor control board available that can be plugged straight in. So that forms my recovery plan if the native syil board fails. The ESS also has 2 additional parallel ports than can also be expanded by using daughter boards to get over your input limitations.

[@CazualHaze]

Sounds like a decent recovery plan my email is:- [e-mail] Cheers

[@danielmatthews8475]

You've got a lot of great content! How is it you have less than 2K subscribers?

[@CazualHaze]

Hi Daniel, Blowed if I know! Thanks for the encouragement though, its good to know people like the stuff I make. Cheers

[@kevinwillis6707]

It's crazy to think you needed a 5 axis cnc to prototype stuff then, prob be able to 3d print one now for about 300 quid😅

[@CazualHaze]

Printers have democratised design and brought it into the publics reach. Cheers

[@niksechtniks]

They sadly dont make these anymore 😢

[@CazualHaze]

Yep I agree it is a shame they dont have an offer us hobbyists.

[@jsincoherency]

Btw if you want to try out FreeCAD I'd be happy to advise! I recommend the "Part Design" (rather than "Part") workflow, and "Path" workbench for CAM. If you try it out and get stuck on anything please feel free to contact me and I'll explain it. I'd love to see more people taking FreeCAD seriously.

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks James, Point taken! I have a fair few files in Fusion 360 I used it when I had a small business so keep the designs and the subscription going. I had several things I can still make so keep my option open so to say. Cheers

[@mrspeaky6885]

Thanks for the review Syil doesnt make these anymore sadly tho current syil pricing also increased massively parallel to their increased ad spending 2021 x7 Premium with Siemens controll 27,5k€ 2023 x7 Premium with Siemens controll 39.5k€ with shipping and tarrifs that about 36k to 56€ i guess same happened with the smaller machines

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks MrSpeaky, They were good value back when I got mine. not much out there now of this size I feel! Even the Tormach is expensive and hard to get here in the UK. Cheers

[@4x4-l2t]

It not good for the machine to crash it into the end of its travel, it messes up the ballscrew and you'll get more backlash

[@CazualHaze]

Never thought of that, the only thing I can say in my defence is it was just to demonstrate and its at the very end of travel which does not get used much. I guess with a powerful servo activating the ball screws you could do some serious damage?

[@Ale_Lab]

Great overview. The file you are looking for is called "linearity.dat" in the mach3/macros/the machine profile folder

[@CazualHaze]

Thanks Ale, I will have a look at it when I get a chance. Cheers