What's the Biggest Problem with Annihilationism?

[@ProfessorBCH]

I find it shocking that Rauser finds this to be a significant problem! Conditionalism holds that everyone will be resurrected to face judgment. This is part of justice, that a person's crime is clearly laid out before them, and the penalty proclaimed and then executed. The horror for the unsaved will be the realization that they had the opportunity to live forever in joy, but in fact are now condemned to death. God reveals himself as a just God who created mortal beings but offers eternal life to those who are His own. Those who reject Him were never intended to live forever, and they will die. What we don't know is how long their time will be before the pronouncement of judgement and its final execution, and we don't know whether their means of death will differ in the degree of suffering. This is not a problem for conditionalism at all.

[@MB777-qr2xv]

If people believe in annihilatiíon, then some will say, "Well, I will just live my life the way I want, and in the end, I'll just go to sleep (annihilation) and won't experience any punishment." But the Bible says, whoever's name is not found in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment (basinismous which means torture) rises FOREVER and they have no rest day or night. Does that in anyway sound like annihilation? If the wicked are annihilated how can they have no rest day or night, when they no longer exist? About annihilation, if it was true, why doesn't God just say, "The wicked (who reject Christ) will be annihilated and cease to exist. Even the memory of who they were will cease." BUT NO! The Bible says, "Whosoever's name is not found in the Book of Life is cast into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment rises FOREVER and they have no rest day or night. Notice it does NOT say the smoke of their annihilation rises forever... And once again, I have asked this question of many, many annihilationists and they NEVER have an answer for "the smoke of their torment rises forever, and they have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT. Once again, if they are annihilated and no longer exist, how can they have no rest day or night? They are gone. How in the world do they have no rest when THEY do not exist anymore?

[@deanwall9291]

​@MB777-qr2xv There are 3 things wrong about your post. 1. You don't seem to understand who God is. 2. You don't see scriptures that counter your beliefs. 3. I'm not sure if it's from simple ignorance or the desire to deceive. 1. I don't know anyone that would serve God out of fear. The God I love and serve, wouldn't want someone to serve him because of fear. 2. Why doesn't he tell us that the nonbelievers will be annihilated? You ask. HE DOES over and over. John 3v16 perish, Matt.7v13 destruction, Rom.6v23 death, Psa.92v7 & 2Thes.1v6-9 eternal destruction. These ALL mean the same as annihilation. Ecc.9v5-10 the dead know nothing. 3. You've combined 2 verses to falsely prove your point. I find this manipulation of the bible apprehensive. First off, you're quoting from Revelations. It's a book of symbolisms and metaphors. Second, *the smoke of their torment rises forever* is specifically for those that worshipped the beast. This event happened just prior to the great white throne judgment. Then after judgment the nonbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire. Let me guess. You never spoke to an annihilationist. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[@denvercheddie]

I appreciate you laying this out so openly. But the better title would have been problems with ECT. 1) where does the Bible teach immortality of the human soul? 2) the Bible clearly states the punishment for sin is death. Onology and logic can't overturn scripture. 3) both views face the same questions about the resurrection. Why take people out of fire in Hades just to throw them in fire in gehenna? Why resurrect people just to kill them? The answer in both cases is for judgment.

[@EricBaxter-f2k]

I think the church really has to be open to examining this doctrine thoroughly’ after preaching E. C.T on the streets for over 25 years / I have come to conclude that conditional Imortality ‘ is more biblical ‘

[@truthseeker4069]

Evangelicals worst nightmare is that people aren’t going to be punished forever. This of course includes many of their loved ones.

[@EricBaxter-f2k]

Why would you say that ?🤨

[@sophon238]

​@@EricBaxter-f2kbecause they use hell to gain converts

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

Traditionalists don't love the doctrine. They just believe it's what the bible teaches. While some teach that we will rejoice over the torment of the wicked, which I find insane. Personally, I am an Annihilationist now. But I just wanted to fairly represent traditionalists. The main issue I would have is that they are afraid to challenge tradition, and thus don't question it.

[@WDYD]

We don't have a soul we are a Soul.

[@walterhelm8186]

Very true. See Genesis 2:7

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

I believe in annihilation. However, that statement contradicts what Jesus said. "Do not fear man who can kill the body, but fear God who can destroy both body and soul in Gahenna." If we are just the body, how could only God destroy/kill us?

[@sophon238]

I disagree we are spirits. A soul is what gives the spirit consciousness.

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

​@sophon238 I have heard all kinds of theories about the soul and spirit. I am convinced these are separate parts of the human from the body based on John 3 and Matthew 10. But what their functions are is a mystery to me.

[@edwardtbabinski]

If every act of evil deserves eternal punishment then why doesn’t every act of good deserve eternal praise? Nor can eternal punishment possibly be justified based on living a life on earth of such limited temporal scope, and after being trapped in a “fallen” cosmos of ignorance, doubt, fears, worldly concerns, and in a body sharing innate reactions and cognitive biases of evolutionary ancestors struggling to find food & mates over billions of years.

[@QuatMan]

Time for you to read the Bible to learn about GOD'S Justice, rather than your own sense of justice.

[@edwardtbabinski]

@@QuatMan You mean this? The spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah and he made a vow to the Lord and said, “If You will make it so that I can slaughter the sons of Ammon, then whatever comes out of my house to meet me when I return, it shall be Yours as a burnt offering.” [Jephthah’s daughter came out of the house.] And he did to her according to his vow. - Judges 11 The children of Israel stoned Achan and his daughters...burned them with fire...raised over them a heap of stones. And the Lord turned from the fierceness of His anger...The Lord hardened their hearts to meet Israel in battle in order that He might destroy them utterly, that they might receive no mercy. - Joshua 7:24-26; 11:20 Moses said, “Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who is not a virgin. But all the virgins save for yourselves.” - Numbers 31 (How could the Israelites be sure which were virgins and which were not? Were the privates of each female probed to see if they had an unruptured hymen?--Mark Twain, Letters from the Earth Some rabbis suggested the young women were made to straddle a wine cask and if their breath did not smell of wine, the women’s hymen was still unruptured.) The Lord said, “[Because] she has rebelled against her God...[Samarian] infants shall be dashed to pieces and women with child ripped open.”- Hosea 13:16 The Lord said, “Slay man and woman, infant and suckling.” - 1st Samuel 15:3 You shall fear (no other gods) only Yahweh...for He is a jealous God. Otherwise His anger will be kindled against you and He will wipe you off the face of the earth...In the cities He gives you leave alive nothing that breathes...utterly destroy them...show them no mercy...or Yahweh will destroy you utterly...The Lord delivered them before us...we...utterly destroyed the men...women, and the little ones of every city...If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or your friend who is your own soul, entice you away secretly, saying, “Let us go serve other gods”...you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death...These curses shall come on you...because you would not obey the Lord...you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters...I [the Lord] will make mine arrows drunk with blood. - Deuteronomy. 2:34; 5:9; 6:13,15; 7:2,4; 13:6-9; 20:16,17; 28:45,47,53; 32:42 I shall make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh in the siege...A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord’s work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed… You are My war-club...with you I shatter old man and youth. … young man and virgin. - Jeremiah 19:9; 48:10; 51:20,22 (Such verses bring to mind a question: Is “heaven” going to be a vacation paradise for obedient child slaughterers? I can just hear the pool-side chat, “We killed everyone in the city as God commanded … or thought we had. Then I spotted a heap of blankets rustling in an alleyway and yanked them aside, and there was a trembling young girl and her pregnant Mom. You should have seen the look on their faces as I raised my sword and … Hey waiter, can I get another Bloody Mary? Boy, I just love this place!”) Fathers will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers; for I [the Lord] will execute judgment on you...I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked… my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north… My fury will mount up in my anger, and in my zeal and blazing wrath I declare. - Ezekiel 5:10; 21:3-4; 38:18-19

[@edwardtbabinski]

@@QuatMan Bible quoting man with puffed up chest says what?

[@QuatMan]

@@edwardtbabinski I didnt say write Bible verses. I said read the Bible and learn about God's justice, without confusing it with your own sense of justice.😊

[@edwardtbabinski]

@@QuatMan I have read the Bible, was born again, was elected president of the most evangelistic group on my college campus. Spent lots of time praying and studying the Bible. Today I have more questions than answers. So maybe you should read more widely, and not assume that simply reading the Bible and/or praying will bring everyone to your point of view and keep them there.

[@VBrinkV]

I'm not an annihilationist but willing to look at it. It seems to me that some degree of punishment is required for justice, even on annihilationism. I would imagine there is a version of annihilationism that would raise the damned, punish them for a time, then annihilate them once their sentence is served. This might make more sense of the different degrees of punishment that is made clear in Scripture. On eternal conscious torment, punishment can only be made worse in degrees of suffering, not in length, since every condemned person would receive the same length of sentence, forever. On annihilationism, both degree of suffering and length of suffering factor in. I think of the unforgiving servant, "you will not be released until you pay the last penny." This also seems to fit with the way judgment is served. Some apologists defend the idea that punishment is continued forever because sin continues forever. But I thought it was committed for men to die once, and THEN the judgment? Wouldn't additional punishment require an additional judgment? Perhaps this might still factor in, I'm just not sure how well this part of eternal conscious torment congeals. Thinking of Jesus on the cross, He was put on this earth to suffer and die for our sins In Our Place. His earthly life was annihilated after a short time, but through that He paid an infinite price. Now, His earthly death is worth the value of all earthly lives and more. But still, in principle, perhaps annihilationism should be given more serious thought than many of us conservative Christians give it credit for.

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

I believe there is an intermediate state of lost souls in Hades as described with Lazerus and the rich man. But at the final judgement, death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. This is the 2nd death. The death of the soul. The rich man was punished directly for his sin against Lazerus. What if Hades punishes the lost for sins against other people? But their rejection of God deserves death. The lake of fire, which destroys both body and soul.

[@stevenlast2168]

What's the Biggest Problem with Annihilationism? It's unscriptural an not a pattern of sound words. 2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[@Mrm1985100]

Why is it unscriptural? I've found the biblical case for it is very strong. Have you studied the issue?

[@storba3860]

Not according to Romans. "The Wages of Sin is death". Pretty straightforward.

[@acts174]

Reading what leaders in the contemporary Conditional Immortality movement (CI) say (e.g. contributors to the "Rethinking Hell" conferences, books & podcast - e.g.: rethinkinghell.com/joomla/forum/2-general-discussion/515-differences-annihilationism-conditionalism), it's difficult to demonstrate that Annhilationalism and CI escape being different yet without distinctions. From your video you are of the opinion that the distinctions are actual and important enough to briefly point out. Can you flesh out the distinctions a bit more or point me in a direction that does? Thanks.

[@Joe6pack4]

I believe in Christian Universal Salvation. If God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving, it is the only theory that could be true between Calvinism, Armenianism, and Christian Universalism.

[@DanTheMeek]

My personal view on justice is that there is no scenario where punishment is just. We as limited beings use punishment only as a means of disincentivising behavior we find undesirable, because we lack the power and knowledge to achieve this goal through other means. I remain hopeful as we continue to better understand ourselves we will more and more move toward finding ways of reducing harm and suffering with out the need for punishment, but that is a long way off if its even achievable with our limited capabilities. Justice, to me at least, is only served when the party that has been wronged has been made whole, and that is NEVER achieved inherently through punishment of the party that did the wronging. Instead, that punishment is, itself, another injustice, but one we endure as we as a society have decided that it is the lesser of two evils and we lack a better solution at this time. In this way, if humans are punished in some fashion by a God, I would consider this God unjust, especially if this God has the capability to make the victims whole, and even more so if they had the capacity to prevent the original injustice they are punishing, and did nothing. In that regard, like a cop who watches another cop choke another human being and does nothing, they too are culpable for the injustice even if they didn't participate in the specific act. None of that means the god of the christian bible can't exist, it just means to me, if it did exist, it would be an unjust god, whether you believe in punishment via eternal torment or annihilation.

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying. God made man with free will. Mankind has sinned and thus become corrupted. God will not allow sin and corruption to exist forever. However, he loved us and came to earth to take our sin upon himself and suffer the death we deserve. He then had victory over death. So, we are able to be resurrected to eternal life if we believe in Jesus. Anyone who does not put their trust in Jesus, will die in their sins, and thus will perish. Only in Christ is one's sins washed away, and thus able to survive the final judgement. Evil has been allowed to exist, because God is patient with us and wants more people to put their trust in Him. How is this an unjust God? He is a loving God, who will bring about justice, but he also gave a remedy to not be condemned. No other religion has a god that sacrificed himself for his people! All other religions people are saved by their own goodness. But in Christianity, we have all inherited the nature of sin, and thus deserve death. God is just, yet he is also love. There is no greater love, then someone who puts their life down for others. Not only that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!

[@DanTheMeek]

​@@truthtransistorradio6716 "God made man with free will". Does having free will require the ability to sin? If not, why curse man kind with the ability to sin? If it does require the ability to sin, then even in your view, in sinning, man kind only does what God designed them to do, and if so, in what way are they corrupted if they are still doing what they were built to do. Consider a creator who creates a gun, a thing capable of sin/harm, they didn't have to create this gun, but for some reason they do. Then, on top of that, instead of creating it in such way that it only fires/harms when the trigger is pulled by the creator (the god in this analogy), this creator specifically designs it so that it will fire at times that creator would not have chosen to have it fire. This gun, then only doing what its creator specifically designed it to do, fires when not intended and kills some one. While we might lock up or destroy the gun for everyones safety, we wouldn't take the gun to court, we'd take the creator, they and they alone would be the one we'd charge with the murder. In this regard, every sin that was every committed need not have been committed, if a god exists it need not have created humans, it need not have created them capable of harm/sin, and least of all need not have designed them in such a way (free will) that they would cause harm/sin. I don't see reason to believe this world was created or that a god exists, but if we were created by a god, regardless of their intentions, all harm caused would be their guilt. Trying to make up for it after the fact with weird self sacrifice rituals might lessen the sentencing, but it would make no sense to act as if the gun creator/god was not the one responsible in such a scenario. Now lets say in the above scenario, my daughter got shot by the gun this gun creator made, because it functioned the way the gun creator designed it to function, shooting even when the gun creator wasn't pulling the trigger. If this gun creator is punished, does that bring my daughter back? What if the gun is some how "tortured" or destroyed? Does that right the wrong? I'd say no, thats not justice either, though they hold the guilt, knowing the gun creator was being punished or killed wouldn't bring me any peace. I do not hate the ones who harm me, I weep for those who are harmed. And in that scenario, that includes me, my wife, all of my family who loved daughter. This is what I mean. True justice is not the one who built the devices (beings) in such a way that they would harm me, after the harm has been done, further harming those who harmed me for acting in the way their creator designed them to act. True justice, at least in my mind, is only served when those wronged are made whole, and if there was a good being with god like power, no wrongs could even be committed, for there to be wrongs at all suggests a massive failing of moral character on the part of the creator. I hope that clarifies my view. Thank you for the polite engagement.

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

@DanTheMeek Your analogy is true if Calvinistic predeterminism is true. I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches. God doesn't force mankind, or angels, to obey him. He gives us free will. The punishment of annihilation is simply putting them back into the state of non-existence before God created them. If eternal conscious torment were true, you would have a point.

[@DanTheMeek]

​@@truthtransistorradio6716 We are still forced to obey whoever created us, though, if we're created by another being. The choices we make are 100% predictable in studies of our brains, scientists have been able to literally predict peoples actions based on their observed brain chemistry. As a result, the design of our brains we were given forces our actions, so whoever designed our brains forces us to obey the original design they placed within us by giving us these brains. It'd be like if I built a robotic killing machine and programmed it so that it would be inclined to kill anything it came across. Even if after building it I'm not actively touching or direclty controlling the robot, the robot can still only follow its programming, so when it murders, it does so because that's the brain I gave it, one that will murder. It had no real choice. The only way it could ever do anything I did not intend, outside of a failure of programming on my part, would be if I programmed it to act truly randomly, but even then, no matter what it did, I'd still hold all the responsibility for making a device that would act randomly and had the potential to harm. If that doens't describe free will to you, I'd be curious what it means to you. I find most explanations of free will are self contradictory. Even if we didn't know our brain chemistry determines our reactions/actions to our environment, it wouldn't make a difference. A being can either only act in the way it was designed to act, or it can act truly randomly, I see no inbetween. If I could act in any other way then the way I do, I wouldn't be me anymore, thus the concept that I could have made different choices in the past given the same environment and biology is quite literally proposing a contradiction of reality. It's like saying you could be a married bachelor, you can't both be you and be capable of making choices YOU wouldn't make. And the choices you would make were determined by your creator, if you were created, at the moment of your creation, including if those choices are random.

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

@DanTheMeek I don't believe we are robots. God created us in his own image. We are able to make choices. We may have inherited a sin nature, but we can still confess our need for a savior. I do believe there are people with limitations. The bible talks about those who know more are held more responsible than those who know little. That includes babies, those who are mentally challenged, and those who never heard the gospel.

[@dylee_mang]

To be honest, I don’t think it’s much of a problem. I think it makes sense he’d want to revive our spirits for judgement, even if it means it will be extinguished again. Excellent video.

[@edwardtbabinski]

I can imagine a human being being offended/hurt by other humans physically or psychologically, or by an accident, disease, wild animal, or disaster. But God ? How can an omni-powerful-wise-loving and immortal Being be offended/hurt psychologically or physically? Such a Being has no reason to feel insecure, and can’t be hurt physically. Such a Being has mastery of time, space, all knowledge, and is all loving. I can only imagine that time and God are the best teachers, rather than imagine a God who acts like some touchy insecure Middle Eastern king, fearful of rivals. God has no rivals, has nothing to prove to anyone.

[@dalecampbell5617]

Wouldn't it make more sense, that God resurrects the lost for the purpose of judgment that leads to correction? Not to say that the judgment would be a walk in the park. According to man made religion/ interpretation, God can't offer his salvation to the lost beyond the grave. As if he is bound by Satan and his rules. As if Satan can put a time limit on God's work. Or perhaps God is bound by man's so called free will or man's imagination. As if man's free will is more powerful than God's will.

[@TimBarr-e8p]

I lived with the ECT View for 20 years and was tormented by it myself. This mistaken idea and understanding robbed me of a clear understanding of this important reality. When presented with Conditional Immortality many Christians act as if they are being robbed. A bit of thinking on this issue and a correction to one's hermeneutic will yield to sanity. Those who know God to be Rational will become an Annihilationist.

[@walterhelm8186]

When you speak of infinite punishment for offending an infinite being, you are appealing to philosophy rather than scripture. The Bible never makes that argument. As for why the unbelieving dead are raised if they are ultimately annihilated, the real reason is justice. They need to see that God is fair, and they also need to see where they went wrong. The resurrection and final judgment also involve theodicy - the vindication of God - that God has been just in the way He has dealt with His creatures. And in the end, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Only when unbelievers are brought to this realization, is it fair for God to inflict capital punishment on them. So merely leaving unbelievers dead without resurrecting them for final judgment will not do, as it does not meet the requirements of divine justice.

[@AidanAshby]

Punishment should fit the crime, so perhaps some punishment would most ideally (though punishment is never an ideal outcome) be carried out against a body for sins inflicted against other people's bodies.

[@JustSaying1957]

Why is the title of this “the problem w/ annihilation”? I’m only two minutes in and your refuting E.C.T.. Hey I’m all for that. However I’m looking for someone to dethrone exclusively Annihilation from a CU perspective. Can anyone refer me to something noteworthy concerning that.

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Do you not know? We will judge even angels. The lost are raised after the thousand years. The saints are in heaven during the thousand years and seeing the books. At return to earth from heaven the lost are raised. (Death means no intermediate state. unconscious) Then the saved who come down out of heaven in the new Jerusalem, are witness to the rebeliion of the second resurrectio , the raised lost people who are judged and destroyed showing the Saints Gods justice. Showing them why they were not part of the first resurrection and why they are those outside the city. This is why Satan is said to be chained for 1000 years, when Jesus returns and raises his saints and transforms the living saints, the lost who died, stay dead, and the lost who are alive at his appearing are killed by the brightness of his coming, they die. With all the lost dead on earth, and all the saints with Jesus in heaven, Satan is stuck on the earth which is.destroyed and without form and void once again, see Jeremiah. After the 1000 years jesus and the saints return to earth and the lost are finally raised and Satan is "now set free" and has his people to gather and rally against the holy city. At which point we are witness that nothing more could have been done for these and they are destroyed. And we shall say, "Just and Righteouss are your ways oh LORD." All predicated on the proper understanding that dead means dead. Life means conscious and/or more. And all relevant verses applied and considered one upon another, all making logical sense. I enjoy your commentary, would love to see your critique of this idea.

[@glennkeaton7800]

Thank you. I appreciate your views on this topic. It actually strengthens my understanding of annihilationism. You touched on a biblical chapter in Revelations 14 (some of which you mentioned, but didn't take the time to quote in entirety). I looked it up again, even though I already knew what the entire chapter says. It proves you are wrong. The chapter says, without contradiction or confusion, that those who have the MARK OF THE BEAST have not rest day or night, and the smoke of their torment rises forever. Please reread it for clarity. I'm also asking that you please reread and consider the most important Bible verse: John 3:16. I suspect you know this verse: "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son so that none shall perish but have eternal life." What I don't understand about people who believe in eternal torture of sinners and non-believers is that they don't consider the word PERISH in their pro-eternal torture arguments, or they don't understand the several times the Gospels say that "the wages of sin is death," and that the book of Revelations specially says TWICE that the lake of fire is the SECOND DEATH, especially since it is well established in the Bible that our Creator is a patient, loving, compassionate, and caring Lord. Let me include in here Genesis 2:17, where YAHWEH says to says to Adam regarding eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil: for if he did, "he will surely die." Our souls are NOT eternal. The serpent himself says to Eve in the Garden of Eden, "Of course, you will not die." Who are you to believe? Also, why would our loving Creator torture his children forever. It would break my heart into piercing shards if I condemned any one of my own offspring to that. I'm sure you have some counter-argument that I could shoot down with Biblical and logical references. But, come on! Are you that vindictive and such a cruel and horrible person that you would allow your children, who you claim to love, to be condemn to excruciating pain and suffering forever just because they displeased you? You need to do a deeper and intensive study of the religion you supposedly believe in. Offer to you with love and respect.

[@robbchristopher158]

Purging and purifying until the reconciliation of all is established makes the most sense.we must become perfect because God is perfect.we humans are not discardable trash to be thrown away.were all made in the image of god.

[@taylorj.1628]

From what I understand, everyone will have to give an answer and be judged for everything they've ever done. If the lost were to remain in an un-resurrected state, they would not be able to be judged by God's books in front of God himself as well as others. Additionally, there won't be any sort of trial where the ones who were hurt by the wicked are allowed to either testify or be vindicated as a part of God's judgment.

[@edwardtbabinski]

So, for a brief moment the damned get woken up from death just so they can be judged, and if they repent during the process (could happen if they have free will, right?) God destroys them anyway? Also funny how you also believe God is going to resurrect all of nature, maybe even beloved pets, and Nazi battle ships, but not resurrect every creature “made in His image.”

[@deanwall9291]

You just ALL respect when you said something (I'm sorry I don't like using this word) stupid. Conditional Immortality isn't annihilationism? But you said it yourself CI believe those that don't get Immortality no longer exist.

[@richardrickford3028]

What a complete and utter mess the whole issue of biblical judgement is. Human beings are hugely messy and deeply deeply complicated. Even the most Christian people do not let Christ completely into their lives. Even the most evil of people are not evil all of the time. We need to break free from these big mac and fries stereotypes of believers and non believers and the good and the wicked and realise that eternal bliss and eternal torment (though especially eternal bliss) are both completely inappropriate places for anyone to be. The tragedy is that in the micky mouse system of justice in Christianity these are the only two options available. What is unbiblical is saying that god sends no-one to hell and the doors of hell are locked on the inside as apologists like C S Lewis would have us believe. The actual new testement talks about certain people who have behaved very badly going up to Jesus saying remember I cast out demons in your name and preached in your name. it is Jesus who banishes them and says go away you horrid people. They do not go off in a sulk and lock themselves in hell when judgement arrives. They go up to him arrogantly thinking they will get a reward. It would, in my view make a lot more basic moral sense if the whole crude and misleading structure of heaven and hell were dismantled and a more logical system made for people so that they can have multiple lives where they conitnualy learn to love God, their fellow humans and themselves. Some of these scenarios would be very tough - hellish even for the many of us who have behaved extremely badly during this life but if we repented and asked God to forgive he would always move us on once we had learnt the lessons from the world we have been in. If people refuse to learn anything about being good and being loving and stubbornly remain a complete and utter evil menace then that is where the aniahlationism could come in - there would be no point in such people carrying on and extinguishing them from the punishment of finding out more about God and more about love and serving others is punishment enough. Does God need them to suffer any more? Do we need them to suffer any more? Let us hope the answer to both questions is no.

[@ronarprefect7709]

Why would God choose to give them a body if they were going to be annihilated? The annihilation is painful, and to cause physical pain with things like fire(YOU are the one who wants to make it metaphorical), God has to give them bodies with NERVE ENDINGS so they can feel physical pain. They may also be caused nonphysical pain. Further, humans choosing to punish someone who kills a puppy more than someone who kills a fly doesn't say anything about what God chooses to do. God would punish someone more for killing a human child than for killing a puppy because the puppy isn't made in God's image. Finally, people need to stop using the word "infinite" when they don't even know what the word means and--as they use it--it doesn't properly apply to God anyway. "Infinite" just means increasing without bounds. It doesn't represent a particular number, though all numbers will eventually be arrived at. God, being outside of space and time, doesn't have attributes to which we can assign any number, and since infinity is just a word meaning to increase such that the increasing thing eventually assumes in magnitude every positive number, number not applying to God means infinity--which is represented by a succession of ever more positive numbers increasing without bounds, doesn't really apply. God doesn't change, so no attribute of God can be increasing or decreasing without bounds. When people say God is infinitely holy, they are using something a human made up rather than scripture, as the bible says that God is "holy, holy, holy". Since holiness means purity, and the set-apartness people talk about is, I believe, just saying that the holy thing is set apart from that which would make it impure(like God's light is set apart from darkness and pure of darkness completely), God is 100% holy, which is not the same as the made-up notion of "infinitely holy". It is like saying something is painted infinitely white. It is just 100% white with no specks or impurities, just as the Lamb of God is completely without blemish. I also think it is obvious that there is a conscious intermediate state in Hades where the unsaved will suffer, but Hades is NOT Gehenna.

[@storba3860]

The Bible says the damned will be resurrected. There's no need for a resurrection if you're already dead and in agony other than for God to arbitrarily inflict more pain on you.