What's Wrong With Guild Wars 2 Raiding? - Kill Proof Gatekeeping, Accessibility and More!

[@olek.9398]

To keep with the sports analogy: There is a reason professional leagues invest heavily into their junior teams. If you don't get enough new people in, your hobby can just die some day.

[@Snebzor]

True. Very true.

[@Maebbie]

hit it on the nail

[@captainplaceholder4482]

I mean if you wanted to discourage even more people from playing raid content... A lot of players already avoid it.

[@godspeedhero3671]

Also, seriously 99% of the time if you show up to a basketball court and HAVE NEVER PLAYED BASKETBALL BEFORE, people will be more than happy to teach you and let you in the game. This isn't like WoW where if you can't get in the raid, you can just go do the LFG version by yourself or something.

[@RMeitzen]

The guy who mighty teapot was talking was completely right. In order to get into raids you gotta do so much social networking, and relying on outside source material that unless you're really dedicated you're just gonna give up and move on. The only reason I managed to get into raids was because I luckied out and found a nice group who were willing to take me in and teach me the harder encounters.

[@Erelyn1]

this is me. I was a mythic raider in WoW and when I tried to get into raids in GW2, I could easily learn and execute any fight, but the only way of actually getting into groups was using those discords that do training. But honestly the players in there aren't the best so most of the time you don't even kill the last boss so in the end it felt like a huge waste of time and I just gave up on trying to raid

[@CafeCrisp]

Sneb is the one who introduced me to raids during his stream a few months ago. Now i can clear everything with PUGs with ease and i just finished coalescence a few weeks ago.

[@Snebzor]

Hey! Super appreciated your comment. The social aspect is both terrible and incredible. It takes forever to get into, but I have made so many friends now. It was honestly a bit of luck and a whole ton of effort. Not everyone gets that lucky wants to put that time into a hobby.

[@Snebzor]

@@CafeCrisp I approve this message. :)

[@JDactal]

Yeah for me it’s hard because I have a lot of social anxiety so finding a group of people that I can play with regularly is difficult for me so while I’ve cleared fractal CMs and raids before I don’t do it on a regular basis

[@thatdangboy8267]

I think you also have to encourage new people to make their own groups. I was one of those people intimidated to join a T1 fractal group. Didnt know any of the terms in the LFG, didnt know the fights and didnt want to disrupt anyone. So one day I said screw it, and made my own LFG. Something like "New to fractals, anyone welcome. Going in blind." The que filled instantly, and people that joined were like "So glad I found this que, always wanted to try fractals but was nervous to join someone". We wiped a few times, but they were just easy enough to get through and it was an amazing feeling completing a fractal. The sense of exploration and accomplishment going into these blind with a group of likeminded players was so fun. I haven't tried raids yet but if I do, I'm going to try something like this and see what happens.

[@baronoke5432]

I think fractals did this better with players having to start T1 before advancing to the next tiers. That way the players, despite being new to fractals can still realistically complete the content without stress or feelings of unfairness.

[@fredriksk21]

Yeah, I like doing dungeons (still, lol), and I'm always happy when I see a group with description "Slow run, no rushing". This especially when I do a new path (many I haven't done). It's so good when you can enter something new and slowly build confidence and proficiency without the feeling of not keeping up with the rest. Should be said that I'm perfectly fine with experienced players creating groups and rushing through stuff they've done 1000s of times too. It's good when the community caters to both types of players.

[@thatdangboy8267]

@@baronoke5432 Yeah totally. This is why I agree with MTP that they really just need to have an easy or story mode, then a hard mode for raids.

[@thatdangboy8267]

@@fredriksk21 Agreed. I never care if a group only wants experienced players. I simply do not join them and make my own group instead lol.

[@gontrandjojo9747]

It's easy to down T1 fractals with noobs having no clue how to play and not even knowing what cc is. Also no kp are required in fractals (only AR) except for CMs so anybody can join. Good luck to down raids with players doing 3k dps. But I agree that kp can be an issue.

[@Multiclasser]

Getting into raiding is harder than the encounters themselves. Took me like 3 years to be able to try the content and then raid. (That's not even my total play time, that's just the timespan I even considered raiding.) Compared to other games I've played where you can just walk in with some people and figure it out after a wipe or just figure it out very quickly while in the encounters. This was like signing up for a job application. Sign up for a job, quickly get removed and demoted by a superior for low performance. Superior recommends more training. Training is in a different facility, with different people, and set up differently. Training is usually not available for a "hot-join". You MUST set up a day to train. Then after training a wing, hopefully you can get into a group. Maybe. (And the repeat for every wing). That's from my new player perspective. I had a very negative view of raids for a very long time. That being said though, eventually I was able to break through that wall and get a set of legendary armor from just pugging. It just took much, MUCH, longer than it should have, and much longer than I realized it would have. And, don't get it twisted, I do enjoy raiding as well. I think a lot of people would if they can get through that wall and start playing. Its just that the raid wall is much higher than anything in Guild Wars and a lot of people never come back because of it.

[@lnnova2436]

And now that you've done this I'm sure you are doing LFG's offering "hot joins" where anyone can join anytime and do raids with you right?

[@jonasmemborg4196]

​@@lnnova2436 I'm gonna call you out, because I've seen that exact comment a thousand times. It is not an original thought, it isn't even your thought. It doesn't fix the issue or even begin to grapple with it. So instead of that, tell us: What do you think of the points made by the OP? Can you recognize any of them? If you're a raider and you agree with these points, what have *you* done to foster a better community? If you disagree, why do you disagree and how do you think the OP might have gone about getting into raids differently? What *do* you think are issues in the raiding community or the community as a whole and why? And what do you suggest be done about them? And if you don't care either way, then why even bother posting a comment?

[@lnnova2436]

@@jonasmemborg4196 Not entirely sure what you mean by your preamble, of course my written words are my thoughts. Anyways I’m more than happy to answer you. His first point that it takes him 3 years to get into raiding is ridiculous, aswell as the notion that in this game you couldn’t just go in ‚blind‘ with a group of people and ‚figure it out‘. What on earth would stop you from that other than your own inability to find like-minded people which isn’t the games (or communities) fault at all. His second point is about the structural element of raid training systems and the time investment that comes with it. This is the negative side effect of organizing content with other people. As a reminder, this is in fact an MMO and you need preferably 10 people for a raid training, which means 10 different irl situations which you need to balance and need to be able to come together at the same time for a certain amount of time to commit to the training. I don’t think this is an issue only with guild wars, but with every game or even hobby where you interact with a group of people. If you don’t like it, play single player games. And if you demand other 9 people to be ready exactly when your schedule allows it without regard for their own lives and priorities, you’re an asshole. I am a raider and I don’t agree with these points, but I can see his side a bit. Raiding is challenging and compared to every other content in this game, not spoonfed to you by Arenanet. But the players are conditioned that they get everything they want with half a braincell and no effort and then they get surprised that raiding requires a tiny shred of self initiative. However this isn’t the players fault, or the communities, but rather Arenanet is to blame for this. Everyone is welcomed in the raid community, but please understand you need to show some initiative. What I did to better the raid community bears absolutely no merit on my points but again I’m happy to answer. I offer hundreds of training raids , taught thousands of people how the encounters work, published both boss and build guides and strategies on raiding websites and answered countless questions in and outside of the game about the builds that I explain on certain websites. Furthermore, I even gifted people achievements from raids which they themselves would never have gotten because they recognized they are limited by some other factor which prohibited them to get it on their own accord. You asked quite a lot of questions and I’m not afraid to answer them all, just running a bit out of time, I will answer the rest later. Why I chose to comment though was because I recognized his complaints in many peoples‘ comments and it’s always the same. Weeeee noone wants to raid with me, a player who doesn’t want to put in much effort weeeeee, why do those bad people require anything from me weeeee. And then once they know how to raid PROBABLY don’t offer that which they cried and wanted from the community to begin with. It’s all about ME, I DEMAND this! But providing that myself? Hell no And why don’t they do that? Because it is very very very time and nerve consuming and highly ineffective to do in that manner. Can it be fun sometimes? Absolutely. Have I done it? Absolutely. But I can completely understand why most raiders don’t offer trainings and when they do, which is a fucking grace and a very good service to the raid community, I absolutely understand why they want to do it in an organized manner, as that brings VASTLY better results and is a much better learning experience for everyone.

[@brandonuzumaki]

Yeah, any other type of content in the game you can do while in game (Dungeons, Fractals, Strikes, Events, etc), while Raids are all in Discord groups, it's not that big of a deal at the end of the day, but you can see why some players are demotivated. Also desn't help that 90% of Raid LFG nowadays is Raid selling (at least on NA), really gives the impression that the mode is dead to a new player.

[@lnnova2436]

@@brandonuzumaki I know NA is a different problem and I can't speak for that, but just out of curiosity I logged in right now and checked the EU raid lfg (00:11 AM CEST) w3 escort and kc training, prefer some kp -> here u could get in even without w6 largos+qadim 50kp w5 fc | tank -> another lfg without requirements w4 deimos 100li w7 @sabir (training) quickness /dps -> another lfg without requirements w7 adina 20kp + 4 raidsells and a static lfg And this is just me randomly logging in right now, THREE lfg's where I can join without anything. And people here tell me seriously they don't find any raids in THREE YEARS.

[@veticalivejournal]

I have tried most popular MMOs and have always been raiding. I've been playing Guild Wars 2 for 6 years, and I did my first raid training 3 weeks ago. Getting into raids have been a nightmare, I had to join training discords and hope that I get lucky enough to get a spot in one of total 2 trainings per week. It's frustraing af.

[@next_lvl_]

I'm saying "include raids/strikes/fractals in guild missions" whenever I get a chance. Anet LISTEN HERE. It's killing two stones with one bird essentially. Giving a long-needed update to guild activities and rewards, giving group content more replayability. Come on Anet. Edit: also, pointing out the obvious. Raids wouldn't be dead if last wing didn't come out 2+ years ago.

[@arniec6817]

yes, they should add strikes, fractals, raids and drm's to guild missions, and update guild commendation rewards.

[@RecklessFables]

Gotta admit, the Raid culture (as perceived by this non-raider) seems like isn't worth wasting my time to jump through the artificial social hurdles and just isn't worth it. Even sPvP seems more friendly, WvW certainly was.

[@YouTubeChillZone]

I believe the same. Anyway, you can see that even arena net has abandoned the concept

[@RecklessFables]

@@KZbinChillZone Yeah, I didn't know that until watching this video.

[@Snebzor]

I am absolutely biased, but I don't view sPvP as even remotely friendly compares to raids.

[@Centrioless]

@@Snebzor nah, pvp is much more friendly. It suffers because the population is too low for decent matchmaking, which eventually put you with players with very far skill gap. This often what frustrates the players. Raids, on the other hand, have stupid requirement just to start the raid. Kill proof, must run X build. Players quit after first wipe. The elitism has been there since the first guide of raiding was released

[@DreamKOne]

I'm a pretty tough guy and usually, there isn't much that can throw me off. I've been called so many things that I can write books for the rest of my life. I swear you can offer me whatever you want you will never get me again to LFG for RAID. I made raid build, learned my rotations, watched mechanics videos on one encounter (can't anymore recall what it was) got to LFG told the group I'm only doing it a second time (the first time I went with the former guild) everyone seemed to be super chilled. until moments later when we got constantly wiped and they started blaming me.. despite me being sure I did nothing wrong, the number of swears I received in the next two minutes was incomparable to anything I ever experienced. I almost started crying that day I swore I will never set a foot in a RAID again. And I think that's fucked up.

[@BreadthStick]

Similar thing happened to me. I've played a lot of games and basically grew up getting shat on on the internet. Never encountered such toxicity as in gw2 raids. The elitism is off the charts.

[@hanneskarlbom6644]

Maybe they can add something like a group finder(chose your role and get assigned a group automatically) like other mmos or maybe a mentoring system in which veterans would be rewarded for helping newbies(like mentoring tag that isnt just a budget command tag) and make a boss testing area where new players can learn boss moves and such

[@Nitidus]

Sounds good - buuut in essence what is needed is a complete rework of the raid system in terms of how it is presented.

[@ONW4V3R]

The first idea is terrible because, unlike other MMOs (not all) gw2 is somewhat skill based. If you go into T1 fractals, you'll see worst healers than a heal theif calling themselfs "healers", and dps that struggle to hit 12k/s... Now imagine this system pairing them with a group of 3 LNHB DH and 1 LNHB Alac. Yeah... Exactly. The "veteran" will be mad at the game for auto-pairing such a shit healer and the "new" player will get mad at the game caus he got kicked.

[@hanneskarlbom6644]

@@ONW4V3R as someone mentioned before they can add conditions to use the finder, like a minimum dps requirment or something... Also wtf is an LNHB?

[@benbeckman2377]

@@ONW4V3R but on the contrary, it might teach new player what is boon dps, boon healer, healer, hscg and other abbreviation. For me, my first lfg is for strikes which have a lot abbreviation and can be confusing for new player. Luckily GW2 wiki is very informative they have all abbreviation listed. But even with that, it's still confusing because new player like me don't know what's quickness or alacrity do. LFG with option to choosing roles can make new player faster in understanding each roles. Maybe GW2 devs can put details in every roles option. Even when I already did strikes for 6 months and I still don't know what is LNHB lol. Maybe with LFG roles option feature I can quickly know what is LNHB.

[@sl5945]

I really just wish the game had a matchmaking system. I don't even care about the success rate of it. It is a decent first step to getting your foot in the door. An ice-breaker if you will. After you fail in matchmaking for a little bit, you'd look into LFG for a training group, then a clear group, then a farm group (or guild - preferrable). What's missing is that crucial ice breaker moment for new players or people without guilds. Source: am someone who's played on and off (sometimes with multiple year breaks in between) since 2012 launch, and due to obligations in other games like WoW mythic raiding etc, have never gotten into the raiding in GW2 because of the missing first step. I don't want to be held to a schedule until I know I can do the mechanics somewhat reliably for the expectation. Even training groups are scheduled. I know I can learn because I'm a good mythic raider in WoW, but I don't have the means to learn the encounter OR my own rotation in a real setting on my own time in GW2.

[@michu1247]

Why guilds are abandoned content in guild wars 2? The only thing that arenanet is giving to guilds are decorations for guildhalls.

[@alcatraz-nc2814]

When I was introduced to fractal back then, while the lower level were "affordable", the higher level looked so out of reach. It took me time to earn agony resistance without just straight up buying my way into high tier, it took me some try not to die in the first minute of an encounter but now I can do T4 fractal like it's a simple dungeon. It is only possible for me to play high tier fractal because there was an opening to fractal in the lower level. When I look at raid, it just seems like there's 0 opening and as the game progress, requirements for getting into a raid group seems to increase. I dont understand all the jargon written in LFG, all I understand is that they need healing or DPS or tank. And people expect you to know your role and mecanic but even if I know them, I dont have any experience with it. There really should be a sort of ranking for raid just like fractal so people can slowly make their way into raid.

[@andrecardoso608]

I guess this "make people get their way into" is the thing that's really missing for raids! I was so afraid of doing fractals, and one day I just queued in lfg and got into it. I'm still crawling my way up in difficult but would've never done it if t1 fractals weren't a thing. Maybe that could work out too for raids, making some sort of T1 raid level of difficult.

[@Dasvovobrot]

They amount of Killproof groups ask for is just totally insane. If I think back to playing Final Fantasy 14, most groups ask for nothing more than that you killed the boss once and have a certain item level (asking for one kill is an option in the group finder so anyone who hasn't killed it cannot join, so there's no worries about faking KP). Of course you will be kicked if you suck but compared to most Guild Wars groups asking for 100+ LI that's nothing

[@__MPires__]

This makes me sad. Raiding was my love in gw2 for a very long time. I loved raiding so much, that I and some other people created a training raid guild, that's still active to this day (altho I don't interact with them anymore). We created the training guild because we wanted to give the new players a shot, we like having new guys around, it was fun it was engaging. Time goes by and raiding because less and less of a priority for arenanet. It is quite true what you guys discuss at the beginning, if we want a clean clear week... we ask for a certain amount of KP, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't accept a guy that would come in and say "hey I have X you think I can join anyway?" - If I was commanding I'd rarely kick someone who'd politely ask to join, even with less KP than I was asking for. I loved to teach new players and get them into raiding, because raiding was my passion and what kept me playing for so long. Players can't get into raids, raids are not as popular in gw2 as in other MMOs, ANET's trying to fix the issue by implementing strikes but consequently, abandoning raids. It's sad, especially since EoD was the best exp so far. I can't play the game anymore. I don't have a reason to. Raiding was my passion. I hope it comes back, with these issues fixed and more regular updates. I understand that my crying represents a very small % of people who play the game. I just miss being engaged in gw2

[@Snebzor]

Great chat with you, as always, Teapot!

[@JohnK26]

as a returning player, it was so difficult to find an active and friendly guild to be a part of let alone a raiding static or anything similar

[@aquapendulum]

I'm just gonna say this: Does anybody wonder why the Fractals system still works even though T4 Fractals are hard as balls? Because Tier-1 Fractals exist. T1 Fractals are for all intents and purposes "easy mode" in everything but the name. People play T1 Fractals, they're provided an environment where failures don't have too much of a consequence, learn what the gimmicks are, learn boss patterns and choreography, learn what they're supposed to do. The LFGs for T1 Fractals don't have this kill proof problem because it's a clearly delineated space for newbies that are not expected to know the ropes beforehand. There is no such delineated space for newbies in Raid LFG, which is a clear gap in expectations that people have of instanced content leading up to raids.

[@NairamCeipok]

@voltaicbore03 plus you have to sign in for it on specific day and time like its a job interview not a game that u want to play and have fun... like i have no clue if i will have time friday at 7pm i am playing at this moment and at this moment im in the mood to do a raid....

[@RMeitzen]

While T1-T4 system DOES make fractals way more accessible to the average player, somehow at T4 fractals we get people (mainly pugs) that have no clue about the fractal mechanics or even their own class, unless you're doing CMs that require title and kill proof, which lands us back at square one. Anyways, hard content just isn't something for the average GW2 player, and I've come to terms with that a long time ago.

[@ozirus3344]

Ironically that's what Strikes was supposed to be. But they didn't really link the 2 systems, it's just it's own thing now. Ive been saying for a while I wish they'd merge raids and strikes into the Fractal system. Call it whatever, I don't care, but if the Fractal instance was the hub for each Type of "end game" it would flow way better. And you could do things with that similar to Fractal level.

[@TheReaverKane]

T4 Fractals aren't THAT hard... In fact neither are a lot of raid encounters. But yeah, that's the issue, there's no real curve for raids, while fractals have an entire gear system created to force a sense of progression to fractals.

[@sonny5974]

@@NairamCeipok this. Precisely.

[@TangoFormica]

1) Anet, as well as a big part of the player base, kid themselves when they call Strike Missions "raid training". Instead of having a useless, inactive, robotic punchbag in the training area, give players a MECHANIC SIMULATION, at least for the first 4 wings, where you can make sure you know how/when to dodge those or whatever. 2) EASY MODE for raids. Same fight, but with -50% HP on the boss, and more forgiving mechanics (getting downed instead of fully dead, etc). They wouldn't give high tier rewards (LI/LD, signature weapons, rare drops, achievement/collection credit, etc), but they would prepare you for the big fight, and they would be REPEATABLE. 3) I'd rather have a new player with a meta build and Easy Mode kill experience, than a random troll running like minion master with 100 KP. As a community we should be encouraging commanders to ask for build/gear templates instead of KP. 4) Achievements related to doing specific roles (like Dhuum's greens, Deimos handkite, QTP pylons) would encourage people to actually learning the fights, instead of being autoattack bots. I'll edit this post if I think of something else.

[@missk1697]

"meta build" is another cancerous thing. Anet is awful at balance

[@TangoFormica]

@@missk1697 every game has a meta, and for a very good reason. An individual player choosing a custom, random build instead of the one that is PROVEN to be the best possible build is just slowing down the whole group. CAN you kill a boss with minion masters, or with condi thieves? Yes. But WHY? Just play what will get us the kill faster and cleaner.

[@merficvalmar4671]

How about titles or special mini's?

[@HelgeM1407]

@@TangoFormica what do you mean by condi thieves? Do you mean the core spec as condi? Because condi daredevil is one of the most damaging builds for encounters like dhuum and is in fact a meta build for dps.

[@DaFunkz]

I’ve just stopped raiding at this point. Finding groups is such a piss take I can’t be bothered anymore.

[@scullyy]

@@Quplas Imagine if you couldn't PvP without KP :o

[@bigburci]

The other guys is so on point. I was a mythic raider in wow so skill probably not an issue but I have antisocial gaming hours so I can't raid with guild and I haven't got time to socialize to get in a friendly pug. So far zero raids in my 1 year. On the flipside this game so diverse that I can keep myself busy with other activities so I won't quit because of raiding gatekeeping.

[@rballen]

Essentially the same, I raided mythic in wow until about 4 months ago when I started working midnight to 8am UK time. Now I can't find anything going on when I can play. Never really used to be a problem in wow. Maybe something like LFR would help but I never found it useful for that in wow. Was always networking in my experience. I recognize the experience of a long time mythic raider isn't the same as everyone else though.

[@SnoreBearz]

I raise you 6 years havent touch them raids

[@Snebzor]

I accept the role of other guy 😅. Glad you felt my opinion was good!

[@TheNate7132]

I understand not player at peak hrs but thier are still options. You can still join raid training servers. There are so many that someone can work with your schedule. If you don't have time to do that I'm sorry and it sucks but MMO endgame requires some commit in time. If someone just doesn't want to put in the time to do some basic networking then why should an experienced player put in the time to train them?

[@cambeul]

I am on the West Coast and I usually cannot Raid until after the kids are asleep. I once got invited regularly to this raiding group, turns out they were in Australia...

[@KMDxD]

How about a tutorial/easy mode that you have to complete before you can join the normal raids? Just to let people get familiar enough without necessarily relying on training from other players. They go in with pugs just like people do in T1 fractals, they get an understanding how things work and just progress from there. Maybe its a stupid idea i dont know but i think it would make it easier for people to get into raids.

[@cezzar1985]

Agree with you, we should have a progression system

[@PrinceArtemis]

"People of the raid, im new to this, i wanna do this, i can lear---" At that point you are kicked from the raid.

[@Elfinlocksable]

The game has a real problem with people playing content like robots. I realize this is a problem with every mmo, but it’s almost unreal the amount of people I group with that seem less like they’re playing and more like they’re just addicted to the game and aren’t even having fun. Group content as a result doesn’t seem worth it to me, as everyone is just looking to clear as fast and soulless as possible.

[@b1ngnx33]

I stopped raiding ages ago. I got my sanity back. Never going back.

[@Davidrunz]

I believe the term your looking for is addicted. When playing games with teammates, it's important not to over do it. Play a couple raid sessions a week. Try not to do it daily, yes you will go insane

[@viesier9443]

@@Davidrunz This. I used to co-lead a static team for raids in NA. We do it twice a week, 2 hour sessions each. In the beginning when we clear less bosses, it was fun. When we reached the peak of W1-W4 full clear, it became stale. So stale our own static members are skipping sessions, going AWOL, or directly leaving. It caused the team to disband, and me taking a looooong break from the game. Imagined if we only clear only a few bosses once a week, the fun would last longer.

[@NotAHomelessGamer]

Funny how the only thing you see in LFG for raids now is run offers at 150g+ each run.

[@einfachnurmarc262]

10 KP to see that a player did kill the boss and at least knows what it is? Fine with that. But do people asking for 100kp really expect NOT to get fake kp??

[@tessa8484]

It's so weird how gatekeepy the GW2 community is about the raids considering they aren't exactly super challenging. GW2 players act like you're diving into hardcore Mythic progression.

[@RiylanCorma]

For most casual GW2 players, raids are that hard.

[@Sobepome]

@@RiylanCorma most casual gw2 players don't want to do raids, though and strikes are much easier than raids, so requiring people to do raid wings to prove they can do strikes is ass backwards.

[@user-xo2og8kv1o]

@@yuka7.999 yes, in EU lfg is filled with li reqs for strikes. EU is always nuts when it comes to elitism.

[@user-xo2og8kv1o]

@@Sobepome but why dont they want to do raids? i for mysefl have never raided until a year ago, and the reason is not bc i never wanted to. it was bc i was intimidated by all the elitism and gatekeeping that surrounds gw2s endgame content, when in realitiy its super easy compared to other mmos endgame content. so i encourage rveryone whos even just slightly interested in raiding, to look for a chill friendly community that is willing tot take beginners. i feel like rading has become more popular over the last year or so. maybe now its easier to get into it.

[@mist1714]

@basedweeb 3 electric boogaloo hey i left the game since skyscale, if the interest i can return for getting new players the raiding experience, fully stacked in legendary gear/commandor tag

[@user-xo2og8kv1o]

i said it since i started raiding after i came back to the game, after a 2 years break, never having raided before, the hardest thing about raiding is the gatekeeping elitistic community and the barriers u have to overcome to get into raiding (playing on EU btw, i feel like EU often takes elistism a step further, so dont take everything word for word if youre playing on NA, maybe its easier for u to get access, idk). the necessity of joining multiple discrods to maybe get an appointment for a raid training is nuts, and the lfg tool is virtually impossible to use unless you camp the lfg to join a beginner run that pops up a few times a week if your lucky (thats how i used to get some practice aswell). the only way to circumvent this is by being in a guild that is willing to teach you. anyways, i joined a guild and multiple raid and training commuinities on discord and eventually started my first trainings. but then i had to show x amount of kill proof to be allowed to be taken to harder raids WITHIN those guilds or discords. so i said fuck that, i can play my class perfectly fine, my benchmark is better than average requirments and i dont need to kill the easiest bosses for weeks to be alloweed to progress and to take on more raid bosses, thats stupid right. so i started watching more guides and did a training if i could get one. then i started to go into higher kp groups than my own kp (bc there was nothing else available) and told ppl "look i know my role, i can play my class pls give me a chance", and it would work sometimes, but more often it wouldnt. so eventually i got tired of bargaining with ppl to not get kicked everytime i joined a group, when i know i can easily play on the lvl that those 25 or 50 kp groups play on. by that time i got confident in my abilities, mechanics in this game are really not complicated and eventually i started faking kp. to my surprise i was able to often end up top dps in 50+ kp parties after a bit, while i only had like 5 to 20kp myself (depending on how accessible the bosses were, usually got more form easier ones but very few or none from harder ones)... yeah, so much for raids being this unbelievable hard thing u need 50 or 100 kp for to be allowed to join lfg groups (btw, fuck rng kp, absolutely ridiculous). anyways, while i was doing those runs i even got invited to a raiding guild (i left my old guild at this point). when i told them i faked kp and i dont actually know that much about all the raids, they didnt care, do you know why? bc you dont have to be that giga chad gamer with 100kp, bc its fucking easy! (well, at least in contrast to what gatekeepers and lfg makes you believe it is). im convinced everyone who puts in some effort can clear every single raid and eventually mindlessly farm it. actual good players dont really care about how much kp u got and dont gatekeep, they want u to be motivated and learn. its the small dicked ppl who gatekeep to feel better about themselves. now, the reason i only started raiding less than a year ago is, bc i was intimidated by all the elitism, yet im very confident in my abilities to play gw2 on endgame difficulty, bc i played the game (on and off) since release and always minmaxed my class even without raiding. thats ultimately why i decided to fake kp and go from there. i do not recommend this to actual beginners and i dont want ppl to expect this to work for everyone with no prior history in gw2 or ambition to minmax their gameplay and to put in effort! let me make this clear, i did not fake kp and hope to get by and pray to get carried. i did EVERYTHING to prepare myself by watching guides and learning mechanics beforehand, optimizing my gear, class and rotation so i could pull my own weight (and sometimes others lol), and that took effort. faking kp at this point was just a tool do circumvent gatekeeping and bc i grew tired of this elitistic community and gatekeeping (i never got caught or even suspected for lying about my kp, if anyone wonders). now, look at all the effort and barriers i had to overcome just to be able to play gw2s endgame content and being able to use the lfg tool, bc faking kp and joining lfgs is how i managed to get to 25-50 kps for all the bosses to where i can actually use the lfg tool without lying or bargaining to not get kicked instantly, its nuts. only a very small amount of ppl will go through that, no wonder raids are "dying", ppl and systems in the game literally prevent players from getting into them. i only took the step to look for discrods and raiding communities outside of the game, when i got so bored with gw2 that i wouldve otherwise quit again. but alot of ppl never take that step, bc they are either intimidated by the gatekeeping (like i was), or they simply dont want to use third party programms, like discord or other websites, to be able to get into endgame content and play their fucking video game. so they either quit the game, or keep doing open world stuff, afking in divinity's reach or whatever. such a huge loss of players who would actually play and enjoy endgame content, only bc such a big part of gw2s endgame community is so elitistic for literally no reason. hell, the lfg tool is filled with ppl wanting tons of legendary insights for strike missions, content thats meant to be played before raids, its so sick, actually unreal. so to everyone whos even just slightly interested in raiding (or endgame content like fracs and cms for that matter too), do it, it can be a lot of fun. look for a nice community to do this with and dont be intimidated by all the gatekeeping and elititsm, ITS NOT ACTUALLY THAT HARD, just be willing to put in some effort in order to learn ur class and be motivated to learn boss fights and mechanics. it can be quite hard to efficiently play your class if u never did so before, bc maybe u only played open world content that doesnt require any of that (as i said earlier, i always minmaxed my class and gameplay even before raiding, bc thats how i liked playing the game even when it wasnt neccesary, so i had an advantage there and kinda skipped an important step of getting ready for raiding) but for beginners, dont get frustrated, it can take some time to learn your rotation and be comfortable with it. just keep going.

[@Snebzor]

NA is *much* harder to access, actually. Fewer people raid publicly on NA (static culture), so new players often think that raids just don't happen. Most LFG groups on NA don't ask for a lot of KP, but only because they won't get people otherwise. This causes a LOT of groups to disband after 1-2 pulls because the inexperienced players don't communicate and the experienced players get sick of people not listening to them. Faking KP only perpetuates issues within the community, but I can empathize with people who view this as their only option.

[@darkpenguins9594]

just join a guild that does training/role learning a few times a week? guild im in has weekends for training

[@user-xo2og8kv1o]

@@Snebzor i especially said why i faked kp and why it worked. i also said ppl should not expect this to work for everyone if they dont have the necessary skills/ knowledge to back it up. i didnt fake kp and jumped in and hoped to get carried right, i did EVERYTHING i could to prepare myself and collect as much knowledge and practice beforehand, besides that i was always able to play my class and rotation blindly anyways (as i said in my original comment). for me this was just a tool to circumvent the gatekeeping, bc i noticed its not as hard as i thought and that im easily capable on playing on the lvl that is expected or above (bc, lets be real, the amount of kps ppl ask for, are usually ridiculous. no one needs so many kps to kill those bosses reliably). i never got caught or even suspected for not actually having those kps... but i think i made obvious that its a very situational method and that i dont actually promote it generally.

[@xSkye629x]

Do ppl really ask for LI in Strikes? I keep hearing about this every now and then, but I have NEVER seen it irl (I run strikes every other day, and I always check LFG for a group I can hop into before making my own). If there's any group up at all, it's usually "EZ 3 or All Strikes -CW-FS"

[@Crazycuban561]

Being a new player I was surprised that gw2 does not have a queue system for dungeons/fractals/strikes/ or raids… such an old fashioned way to have to scroll through lfg to find a team for something.. and introducing daily rewards for queuing for these could encourage players to run the content, even the dead dungeons.. just seems like a no brainer

[@etiennemarais]

I feel that fractals does this well, t1 is always super casual and helper / training groups vs t4 that are more hardcore. Raids could do the same :shrug:

[@HezrouDhiaga]

Its gatekeeping shit that made me quit gw2 and play xiv instead. Can't get proof of kills when dipshits gatekeep wing 1 preventing you from even touching raiding at all. The community just got way too toxic to tolerate.

[@fullmetalathlete]

+1 for guild finder...been a struggle as a new player in this game. Seems odd to struggle to find a guild in a game literally called GUILD Wars lol.

[@justinpeace6841]

Adapt to the ff14 reward where you get a bonus for new members completing a boss for the first time, maybe a mystic coin or two or 5 or whatever per person that completed a boss for the first time for each person in the raid, per boss. Incentive to train as many new people as possible!

[@enorenwtf]

I wouldn't even be mad about this if the KP was something bond forever to the account, I did more than 3 months of raids with my guild clearing wings 1 to 4 every week and nobody told me that I had to keep the fucking DECORATIONS and not use them, I thought LI was enought but nope, need to keep a shitload of useless things in the bank/inventory just to prove that "I was in a party that cleared that boss a number of times between X and Y", you could literally start the fight, /gg until they are all done and you will still get the "proof". And now even if I can do wings 1 to 4 blindfolded I have no "proof" so I can't join a group other than my guild's. I wish Anet disables the feature to ping LI and the decorations in chat just to see the whole community panic.

[@YouTubeChillZone]

I agree 100% with what they say at 13.40 minute I've been playing this game from the very first beta test and completely ignoring lfg precisely because there is no system to help you find a group to play with effectively. The guild finder would help a lot because the crowd of people from the LFG takes too long .

[@Hornswroggle]

About a month after the notion of KP became popular I legit saw LFGs unironicllly asking for amounts of LI that were *LITERALLY IMPPOSSIBLE* to obtain at that point. Which indicated to me that many of those groups/raid leaders didn't and some still don't even understand what that number means. Plus: If you ask for people who already have the maximum amout of LI/KP physically obtainable at that point... why should they join you? They already raided this week (or they wouldn't have max) and have no incentive to do it again.

[@EzekielPrellus]

What I might do is add a training mode in which the squad commander activates the training mode and is fed players from a training queue (similar to the WvW queue). Players might queue up based on desired wings/bosses/roles, etc. Once the training session is done, kill or no kill, the squad rates the commander's teaching effectiveness. Trainers would be awarded achievements, gold, titles as they progress as teachers/trainers based on how they were rated. In other words, create a game mode in which anyone new to raids can queue up to be taught by an incentivized trainer.

[@matyourin]

I started raiding about a year ago. joined HS, got into a training group run by captain basch on weekends... then somehow found another guild that did weekly 2 raids (1 beginner, 1 exp-level which I reached after 3-4 weeks) ... so got almost 2 sets of leggie armor now... got the ring too... and of course have a ton of killproof.... BUT I only played as DPS (very rarely hhb) and I basically did no mechanics except for the necessary stuff ;) ok, did pylons on qadim or cannons on sabetha... but that's basically it. And I think to be really an experienced player, I should at least know more about what all the other guys do. Sure I can DPS dhuum... but greens? no idea what those guy do and when ;) or the tank... how he knows when to go where...

[@Haradras1]

In other words, every role in Raids needs its own KP.

[@iNioiiviiaiNie]

In short u got carried by being dps monkey but in other words, u earned it with ur role as dps so perhaps kp for each "role" u do?! But then the role gotta be much more defined in raids and not easily negated by simple aegis or stab etc

[@abderrahmanaitlahcen8913]

Captain Basch poggers

[@matyourin]

Yes, I think some kind of "role specific kp" or as mentioned in the video an achievement based system would be good... like at soulless horror it is a fixed role who is tank, maybe something like that for all roles for all bosses?

[@MyNamelsSylar]

A better example of the store analogy would be if you went into a store and the store owner says "You can only shop here if you show proof that you've successfully shopped here 50 times before." And the only other way you can shop there to start earning "shop proof" is to pay the store owner $100.

[@HelloFellowMellowMarshmallow]

It's the "when jobs want you to have 10 years of work experience before the age of 22"

[@YouTubeChillZone]

It is very easy to fix the KP problem... You do KP permanently assigned to the account without occupying the slot and you make a filter in LFG that can be set to any number of KP. Playing in this system will automatically allow the player with the appropriate KP level to join the group. Similar system was in DC universe online Of course, arena net will manage, as always, that there is no problem. I really like this game but this studio always has good ideas but unfortunately they only implement them halfway as shown by this example of KP.

[@TheAnimeSounds]

Still not good enough, u get kp even if u die like 10 seconds after start and rest ppl carried all.

[@ozirus3344]

"they don't want to network like it's a job for 5 hours" - this his home as a newish raider. Finally started looking for statics since they're more popular on NA and it's legit interviews "to make sure you're a fit for our community". Like... What? I have friend groups already I'm not trying to be in your discord all the time I just want to join 9 others for trustable clears.

[@YouTubeChillZone]

But it's f up way to have fun in game

[@PathWars]

Yeah but it sounds like that discord is also wanting to be friends

[@alphabetaepsilon9848]

The funny part of this is someone like me. I quit gw2 about 2-3 years ago. I can join these groups with the KP I have farmed when I did play a lot back then, and not remember my rotation at all. So I would be allowed to join over someone else who probably understands the game more than me now. I'll get to play with the group and coin flip if I remember my rotation before the more qualified person is able to do a single pull. Though remembering my rotation wouldn't matter much because the raids are simple enough. Anet need to make listed requirements that people can use. FF14 you just select the option for people who have cleared once to join a clear group. 1 KP is enough for Savage tier fights even two of the three Ultimates can be pugged; which are arguably harder than any raid in gw2. Though they would need to admit to a trinity system to meet these requirements of a tank doing tank stuff and dps doing dps stuff and a healer doing healer movement. Good luck guys!

[@KenDeBoer82]

Don’t forget that you can use the KP for guild trophies. So often the Kp is used up by newer players and guilds.

[@fatkidwithfudge]

That's what I did with mines originally. Raided with my guild and while I had heard of KP before, I didn't know exactly what it was. It never came up with them, so I didn't think much about it. Raided with them and just dumped whatever I got into the GH.

[@whypie5158]

My raiding exp: Never raided in gw2 ever -> joined a guild by asking on open world -> watched teapot / Mukluk guide (10min before the raid) -> showed up with PROPER gear and mastered rotation-> only wiped 2 times in a 3Wing full run (W1,3,7 gauntlet) -> now i am part of the core raid team of the guild and soon core raider in another guild starting this Saturday. :)))

[@GreenLarsen]

Happy to hear :) I have commanded a ton of training runs and someone like you is kinda my dream trainee. Sadly thats only about 15%, then there is 70% who join but lack a bit of gear or dont know what cc is. But that can all work. And then there is the last 15%... thats the 15% that make you cry and sometimes make you want to just never command again. Several times I have been called toxic for asking people to pls use food (food that I provided and mailed to them) or for asking to pls equip xx skill (like druid, pls equip frost spirit and explain why and what it do etc) or and this one kills me every time, just be done with a short explanation, be ready to go and then have someone say "afk 2 sec" and then not come back for 20 min... first you go, ok. Person is soon back, then after 5 min. you start wondering if you need to kick and then after 20 min. you regreet you did not kick :D I like to train new raiders, but boy do I also love the runs with my static or just pugs where it s. Everyone know what to do, 1-2-3 kill and done. ty all :D

[@mintb3868]

Get it! I love hearing stuff like this. Sometimes it can be intimidating asking around because social interactions can be tough sometimes but it's similar to applying for a job or talking to new people you meet. You gotta start somewhere. Good on you for reaching out and doing some homework and thank you for posting this!

[@whypie5158]

@@GreenLarsen I think it comes down to ''lack of interest''. When I was told that I can raid that day, I did not just show up with my thumb in my *** and demanded a smooth run. I tried my best in those 10min before the raid, I looked for specific tricks that made the fight more ez on top of the quick ''get to the point'' of Mukluk (like W7 Cardinal Adina, where I, as a HFB, need to use tomb 3 skill 3 when the hands spawn). IMO, some gw2 players are just lazy...not noobs or stupid, but just lazy. PS. While we were killing 1 boss, I was having the next ''get to the point'' video running kinda like a podcast, for the next boss :))).

[@whypie5158]

@@mintb3868 Thank you! Knowledge is half of the battle! ^_^

[@PolishWoolf]

I played for multiple years without trying raids because I was worried about the difficulty level. With my current setup I'm lucky if I get 15fps in group content. With that in mind... I joined my first guild because they advertised raid training. I was told to get full ascended gear and a sc build (power reaper). This took me over a month. I was absolutely awful and the training ended early with the com saying "you guys are clearly not ready for raids". Then I joined another guild. They had a small group (5-7 people) interested in raids and 1 dedicated veteran with a lot of patience. After each run he would send everyone dps reports and message us saying what exactly we had to improve. Eventually, he intived me to his fullclear static. The first wing 7 run was awful. I kept dying, I slowed everyone down, half the group was telling me to quit. After that experience I felt really down and didn't want to return next week. But the vet guy messaged me, said it's ok to make mistakes and suggested we join some training runs. Almost every evening we'd join random low requirement LFGs and he'd explain the mechanics to me. I became a part of the static, keeping up with 50+kp players and spending my free time joining pugs to learn more roles. Fast forward few months, some conflict with the static later, I started to rely on LFG for my weekly clear. First 50kp was difficult to aqquire, after that I could join just about any group I wanted since I learned multiple meta roles. Every monday morning, I tag up, open LFG and clear all wings +5cm in a single day. The other week days? I help my guild do training runs. As for the state of the EU LFG. I managed to get every single CM clear with pugs. It took a while, but after a year I even got Dhuum.

[@TheReaverKane]

My solution (which i submitted on that survey the did after the first elite beta) was to add a modifier to the reward system. For every player on your squad that hadn't completed the raid, you'd get an extra chance (5-10%) for the boss chest to drop. So if you're doing it with your static at the start of the week, you're getting double drops. But then if you do a training, or join a pug, you're getting extra chance from every player that hasn't completed it yet. This stops people farming them with statics (which is, i guess, the reason for the weekly limit), and would incentivize people to play with new people weekly. Also making stuff like legendary armour seem less distant than it is. I didn't pick up raids for years because it seemed too much work and too much time for an objective. And if it wasn't for the Legendary Armoury, i probably wouldn't be doing raids as much as i am.

[@TheReaverKane]

@Rozrywka Po Pracy most of the good rewards are account bound. But sure, if they want to rotate accounts for a small chance in extra loot, instead of helping other players, let them. Honestly its more cash for Arena Net, and you wouldn't want to play with those people anyway.

[@christinson1024]

KP is a failed attempt to fix a problem only Anet can fix. Anet needs to introduce training systems, in the same way the duty finder works in FF14. Put them into tiered difficulty (Easy for those who are learning, but with few rewards) middle difficulty (some good rewards from more difficulty) hard difficulty (good chance of top drops) super hard (guarantee of the top rewards). This allows those who are learning or new to raids to have a way to learn with others who are also learning, without any need to worry about "get gud kid".

[@nosceteipsum7757]

Maybe you get more people into raids by implement a solo raid simulator where you can train with real player ghosts from cleared raid bosses. Choose your role and the game gives you a dps/boon/heal benchmark. After success you get a unfakeable training token of the boss. But maybe I am wrong. :)

[@Nitidus]

Then the vets are gonna say "well that's worth absolutely nothing as you haven't even done one with real people"

[@ImNoah_btw]

I think this is a GREAT idea

[@Sonofawarpig]

I came from progression raiding in wow and mythics and blah blah blah to saying "fuck it" to raiding in gw2. It is so ass backwards on how people gate keep it's ridiculous. Went for a training group and got through wing 1 and totally had every mechanic down, I mean gw2 raids are easy mode in every sense. Tried to get into a group outside of the training and they threw all sorts of kp and shit at me that I needed and said "fuck off trash casual scrub". Never in pvp, wvw, fractas, ow have I met with anywhere near the level of toxicty as the 12% of the gw2 players that raid.

[@martinsch]

Never played a game with so ridiculous gatekeeping honestly. I am a really competent player, but I don't have the time/schedule for a static group. So there is almost no possibility to get into content I'm very certain I can handle.

[@MyouKyuubi]

As a WoW player, and ESO player, i don't have the social energy to deal with people who are SO fkin' deluded as to gatekeep content like that. xD Raiding in ESO is EXPONENTIALLY harder, and yet getting a group is piss-easy. xD Just ask in zone chat "Any raids/raiding guilds around?" boom, instant invite, no hoops or loops or beating around the bush, you're in and already getting a lecture on what to expect from raiding in ESO and getting updated on boss tactics, etc.

[@martinsch]

@@MyouKyuubi True. I mean it's fair to have something like "know mechanics" as a requirement. But raids in GW2 are really not THAT hard that you need to kill a boss every week over months just to get into a PUG group for that very boss. It really sucks for people like me that can only play the game spontaneously and are unable to reserve every monday evening for a static group. I'm really happy when I see a group that doesn't require KP for the wings I know so far. But that hasn't happened for more than a month...

[@stevnated]

When I first heard this term, I thought it meant you had to BE kill proof, lol.

[@knashki]

Easy solution: Give a non-time gated, repeatable achievement that grants a bonus LI per wing (or even per boss) for clearing with a player who hasn't cleared it before. FFXIV does this with all of its instanced content, and it encourages players to seek out new players to quickly farm limited currencies - veterans could get their legendary armor or ring more quickly for helping out new players throughout the week, creating a positive feedback loop of players helping players with real incentives.

[@attila2246]

That would explode raid selling even further.

[@imadeyoureadthis1]

This idea is not without flaws, but still it is really good.

[@JiuyinZhenJing]

This video hit home for me. I played since release, when i come back to the game (recently) try to do raid, got on the discord, got my ascended gear, learn build and rotation and finally look for training i wasted 3hr, did another trainning after and it's like the whole day and got nothing out of it. i really want to do raid but...i just don't have the time and no one want you. i even clear CM fractal 100 the other day and still haven't beat 1 raid boss.... :(. Anyway good thing this game have so much to do nowadays and other way to work to legendary gear.

[@QzarVideos]

I couldn't relate to this more. Was in a hardcore raiding guild and actually participated in some world firsts back when wings 1-3 came out. Quit playing afterwards and basically no longer part of an organized group. It's literally impossible for me now to get back into it and try out the new wings without killproof.

[@rock00dom]

Join a guild that does training runs. There's lots of them.

[@galath9242]

hard to believe your claim about being one of the first raiders with you CLAIMING that it is impossible to get into them now. I started raiding in 2020 november. In just 5 months I completed every single raid encounter + every cm WITH PUGS. If you actually put effort...

[@vincentgrubbs7167]

Scaling raid instance sizes is one of WoWs better success, the crux though is that the raids bosses become easier with more players. DPS checks become easier, DPS Mechanics are spread around, and Healing demands scale logarithmically. It's really great for pulling casuals into raiding since raid leaders are willing to pull in need semi competent warm bodies to make the raid easier.

[@butterpeanut1066]

To add my two cents in regards to the "statics" part. I agree with everything Teapot said that statics have a downside of players not engaging in the 'broader community', but where I disagree is whether that is actually a problem (or rather how big of a problem it is). The reason I say that...and this might be a super hot take...but at least in my opinion, raiding itself isn't very fun in the long term. Raiding specifically with the people that you want is what is fun. It's what keeps players raiding for years on end. Maybe I'm the minority with that opinion, but it wouldn't shock me if there are more players that feel this way. Raids with friends = fun for a long extended period of time. Raids with a different set of strangers every week = boring after like a month (to me at least, clearly my opinion here and not a fact) However, I also understand that my opinion on that also makes it more difficult for a newer player to get in. My ideal state for a newer player to join would be finding a guild/group of friends to teach you and play with over and over, as opposed to an LFG or a discord where you play with 10 different people every week for 2 years.

[@goestah]

It becomes a problem since it's generally pretty hard to find a long term static, and the fact that many people simply don't have the possibility of scheduling static raids multiple evenings/times a week. I agree that a lot of what makes raids enjoyable is playing with consistent people, but that in itself becomes a huge problem and design flaw when accounting for the fact that not everyone is so lucky to both find a good static that clicks well and have the time and possibility to devote yourself to time-scheduled raiding.

[@butterpeanut1066]

@@goestah Sure I totally get that it's not for everyone, especially in regards to schedules. My main point is that we tend to focus so hard on LFG as the end all be all in regards to raids, and statics tend to get a bad rep. To me it's the equivalent of playing ranked pvp vs having a consistent AT team.

[@Jakerunio]

Teapot you briefly mentioned that there is no guild finder in the game and actually that would be a huge stepping stone and is something the game needs in general, especially with WvW restructuring being a thing. If you are recruiting, there should be a way for you to post your guild permanently with a restriction and people can request to join. While it’s not the perfect and interesting solution it would be a huge step in the right direction imo. Even new players in open world don’t know where to find guilds sometimes if they don’t just sit around in Lion’s Arch and read map chat all day. Literally every game mode stands to benefit from such a system, as well as the community at large. (search filters like searching by population and keywords in descriptions would be a great feature within the system, too).

[@HizzerPeews]

It might be asking a lot, but they really need to redesign the LFG tool in the game. I've been playing FFXIV for the past year and it's party finder tool is amazing. You can select which raids or dungeons you want to do with a drop-down menu; limit which classes you do or don't want in the group; select a category for your goal with the content (i.e. completion, progression, loot); and, with Endwalker, a toggle to specifically find people who haven't gotten their weekly completion or lockout. Arenanet could even go out of the way to add a "cleared" toggle to only allow players that have killed the boss at least once to join the party.

[@tabe2278]

Teapot already talked about this in one of his videos. Not really possible to do matchmaking in gw2. In ff14 and wow matchmaking works cuz your class defines your role. In gw2, you would need an interface, that's way too complicated to use, or an AI/algorithm that analyses your build. And even if there were a matchmaking system in gw2, in wow and ff14 you can't change setup mid run, while in gw2 you can and most of the time it's also necessary.

[@fengxian3089]

There are too many sub roles in gw2 so its kinda hard to really matchmake.

[@HizzerPeews]

@@fengxian3089 Maybe. What sub-roles are there now? The last time I did any T4 fractals the comp was generally just alacrigade, healbrand and DPS. I'm sure raid comps vary a lot though? This was just an off-the-cuff idea that I thought could work. Just need someone a lot smarter than myself to put some actual thought into it.

[@tabe2278]

@@HizzerPeews It's not really the amount of subroles that's the problem, but that there is little relation between specs and roles. In ff14 your role is predefined with your class. Let's say you play white mage, then the game knows you are a healer, and whatever you do, you will be able to heal. In gw2 let's say if you play firebrand, you can be cdps/pdps/heal/celestial, you might give boons, you might not. And going from the other way around, let's say you want a healer. Literally every profession can be a healer. There was a time when heal thief was meta on some bosses. Not really doable. But I like your progressive thinking about the system.

[@missk1697]

@@tabe2278 essentially, anet digged their own grave with this stupid customization. GG.

[@Aesthesia69]

I am not in any way interested in doing new strikes after playing cold war and whisper. They were supposed to be the stepping stone to raids but didn't let players experience anything close to a raid mechanic. Strikes 2.0 are going to get abandoned (again) after EoD releases and they'll move on to their new thing as per ANet tradition.

[@skrubknight884]

makes you wonder what they might have looked like had IBS not been gutted. None of them feel incomplete per say but if raid training was the goal there, that implies there was a lot cut from these encounters

[@Christine-shield]

there is no benefit to kill proof IMO - and its one main reason why a Long Term Commitment player (here) is quitting GW2 - community has turned into something I no longer value

[@damienlee927]

Me: Graduated from Fractals University Me: Looks for a job in Raid Pte Ltd Raids: To work for us, you need 10 yrs experience working for Raids Pte Ltd Jokes aside, yes there are player initiatives such as raid academy, but Anet could do more to help new players get into raids

[@galath9242]

lol

[@dorkvania7212]

I would love an achievement system for raids to replace KP. I tried and failed to get into raiding repeatedly. I'm very lucky to be part of a chill static now.

[@vipero07]

As a player who's been playing since the launch, tried to raid when they first came out, and got tired of spending 4 hours with people constantly dropping and needing to retrain new people... This video absolutely sums up why I never raid. I also wouldn't blame novice players at all for why raids are dead though. It is 50% the fault of the people who play raids for lack of patience with newbies and 50% the fault of Anet's since they really don't care to give enough incentive to keep people in raids with at least some rewards on failures. Anet, make each raid mechanic an event, pay some karma, xp, and gold like open world events, tie some achievements to em... that is at least the minimum necessary.

[@Sevetamryn]

8 Month later ... KP is a thing for strikes ...

[@icata12345]

mostly for cm ones

[@affroirl9854]

So I had this issue when I started raiding. I was a 0 LI Andy and nobody would let me in their groups/guilds. So I bought the commander tag, copy pasted what people were saying on LFG, and went in commanding groups just repeating what others were saying. We wiped a lot but people didn't believe someone with 0 LI would command raid groups so I got experience doing that over and over. I now have around 700LI

[@YouTubeChillZone]

Because of these practices, most people don't even try after a few of these groups.

[@ulknown1512]

Tbh I just do Fractals and metas now. The players there are much more chill. 90% of raiders play the game all day and think they are better than everyone else.

[@Myror_]

the worst part about raiding is having to managed 4-5 different discords to even find a training group or find a static, LFG needs a MAJOR overhaul.

[@TyDefender]

I see KP as a huge problem for W5-7. I NEVER see training runs for those wings. At least in the LFG. I agree 1-4 has a barrier, but there’s currently a point of entry, it’s just slow. For 5-7… don’t even know how to get into it, and I have 1 set of legendary raid armor and starting to work on my second.

[@Snebzor]

I trained wing 5 and 7 today. The reason they aren't trained as often is because it is painfully slow and requires more time investment, more specific roles and mechanics, and they are harder to carry. There is more individual responsibility. Lots of trainers just don't have 4 hours to kill watching people wipe to Dhuum pre event. And, even if they did, they don't want to. I trained for 7 hours today. I made less than 20 gold. If I had farmed, I would have made 200g.

[@Snebzor]

If you are on NA and want some help, give me a shout! Snebzor.4851

[@TyDefender]

@@Snebzor yea, I agree. From what I’ve seen, there’s more roles/mechanics in later wings so it makes sense that the barrier to enter is so high I’m gone for a week, but I’m NA and interested in any way to get into W5-7

[@Snebzor]

@@TyDefender when you are back, I will absolutely help you get into those wings!

[@RiylanCorma]

I've cleared W1 and W4 close to weekly for the last couple of months, and before that W1 or W4 once a week for a few more months... Currently have zero boss tokens. Used them all for my guilds. If I ever decide to go PuG a raid, I'll just fake it. Simple, and they don't take up my inventory space.

[@X1OProductions]

Just make a auto group finder. The raiding community needs to be larger. Get more pugs in there. Raid design also needs to change. There should not be mechanics that can be shoveled onto 1 person alone. Clearing Dhuum should mean everyone in the party can do greens.

[@danieljohnson8539]

well said not enough new people forming teams

[@manictiger]

It will never "get larger" in its current incarnation. I can't think of a less desirable game mode. Not even sPvP feels like a job, and I don't like that mode that much, either. But the way these raids are... It looks like a job to me. I didn't sign up to do a job that doesn't pay. I signed up to play a game. I don't need bosses threatening to terminate me, or telling me to play stuff I don't really enjoy. I just wanted legendary insights. But, nah, WvW for me. Better looking armor, anyway. Perfected Envoy was just a little something extra to go for, but not if it's going to be like this. Dead before it even began. I will not do it. Bad game design.

[@Erelyn1]

I was a mythic raider in WoW in a top 400 world guild for about 2 years back in legion (and we were only a 2 day raiding guild so would be a higher rank). When I tried to get into GW2 raids, I had such a hard time getting into groups that the only way was to join training sessions on the different discords. Problem is, there's no real minimum requirement for these and they were taking people that had like 40 mastery points and doing terrible so the KP acquisition was slow as shit. Eventually I just gave up because it's a waste of time to spend 4 hours to kill the first boss cuz people can't press their movement keys. Seems you have to suffer through terrible groups to get KP before you can join decent groups (outside of finding a guild but my schedule doesn't allow for the regular times that guilds raid) and I just don't see that as fun or rewarding. I can live without legendary armor

[@FrostySnow1000]

Only time when im like "Dam.. wish there was LFR like WoW"

[@mormegil231]

Raid LFG just needs a training tab where training guilds and community can constantly advertise themselves. Its such a simple change that will help a lot.

[@Centrioless]

Just like some of the older and more difficult dungeons, very few would want to teach pug.

[@mormegil231]

@@Centrioless Training communities are already there. But they have no way to show themselves in the LFG without the rest of the noise. And also many other commanders and guilds are doing trainings every week.

[@camdimond2405]

I hit LFG to find group from raids the week that Reddit decided to bring them back in a sense, and every one said Selling and I had no idea what that meant. Gave up pretty quick.

[@Snebzor]

There are so many players that want to learn raids, that my groups would literally fill in 5 seconds. There was massive demand and low supply of trainers.

[@tekoneiric]

I've said for awhile that with limit person content like raids and fractals, we need to be abto create parties with our own characters and assign roles. We spend time building our characters anyway. It would allow new users to build a party and learn content before jumping into parties with other players. GW1 has NPCs that can fill out parties. This would also encourage players to learn characters building.

[@cezzar1985]

We should have an inteligent LFG system working like a queue for a pvp match. Before start you inform you role and just wait, the system join you with more 9 people like you.

[@Snebzor]

How do you think they could implement that given the complexity of roles in Guild Wars2?

[@missk1697]

@@Snebzor normally

[@DesBongo]

The Main reason I never really picked up Raiding. I cant just do a casual W4 or something because I dont have 50k LI. If I really wanted to do W4 I needed to spent 30mins looking for a Training group only to sit 4 hours at Cairn without achieving anything. Imo that makes it hard af to get into Raiding because your either a God Pro with 200kp and play the raid casually or you sit in training runs until you get to 200kp. The Lack of a middle is really infuriating.

[@Snebzor]

I strongly identify with this. I had to network my way into stronger groups and have them train *cough* carry *cough* me. The problem is that there are so few people in the middle.

[@ZianaSue]

I've never done raids, and I've wanted to join a training session, however, I wanted it to be with people I knew had done them before, and that I trusted to be able to teach me and still successfully complete a raid. At the same time as that, I'm also afraid to try raiding because I know from experience with other games that raids are gatekept by the community, and the raiding community is scary and intimidating to me. I know me as a player if I don't know the mechanics, or what to do when I will slow a party down because I'll need to slowly walk through everything and be told what to do when. I don't know anyone willing to slow down and give me "Raiding for Dummies" training at a time that fits an entire party of people's schedules.

[@Snebzor]

I do drop in raids specifically for people in your situation. No pressure, no commitment, no KP requirements. I teach the basics (usually less than 5 mins, depends on boss), then we do pulls while I call out mechanics.

[@RobbieZ84]

I just started raiding fairly recently (just came back to the game a couple weeks ago), having a row of items in my bank devoted to being able to prove my boss kills in case I want to do a kill without my guild, is annoying. They definitely need a better means of being able to show other players that you know a fight to get into one of the clear pugs.

[@rmyoung87]

Raiders are hypcrites. They expect to only deal with players with high KP, then whine that raiding content is dead. Well when you gatekeep to the point that no one believes they can do it, and then don't, why are you surprised that no one raids and Anet isn't arsed to focus on them? I think it's dumb to ask for KP on LFG. I have a hard time believing if you're a hardcore raider that you can't find people on a dozen discords. Use the discords for your "choice" of players; leave LFG for people who are looking for pugs. Or maybe take up the mantle and teach people to raid so that you have a larger pool of people to play with. No one player is obligated to do so, but if you aren't doing anything to get new players, don't complain when the mode is dead. Selfish players just ruined the game mode and they have no one to blame but themselves. Same can be said with WVW but that's another story.

[@lemonaj4408]

I like such videos. When i was geting into raids for the first time it was with a guild. 8 newbies who know raids only from wow or other mmo plus 2 trainers, but after few weeks guild suffered from internal problems and i was alone. I had few li and some kp. I joined all discords for training raids, but it is rly hard to actually get into them. You have to camp discord rooms and hope that somehow you would be on the list. I wanted to be prepared if i can get into raids i have to be good and show myself. I watched videos, practiced rotation etc. Well, thanks to my life, as i don't have time to camp rooms for hours and hours i have never trained with guys from any of those discord servers....BUT one guild i was a part of decided to do a training run. I was in. Next week too. Third week i was asked by commander if i am already part of a static or if i raided already. I told him my story and became backup in their static. Now i am permanent member, they are my friends and i have enough li and kp to even go clear things with pug. Yeah current state of this kp thing in gw2 is... strange. When i have some spare time i am trying to help others to get into raids, either filling training groups, if they need help, or help players find those groups. I want to be commander for training groups, but most of the newbies need either good tank or good druid (i am not rly good in either of those), so when i learn how to do one of those i can help ppl who wants to start with raids as i once was.

[@MarkWIXX]

An incentive I thought of that made dungeons lucrative as well where they had you complete 8 unique paths to get some gold and tokens; complete 8 bosses/encounters for raids to get a bit of gold and such.

[@MarkWIXX]

@Rozrywka Po Pracy With that attitude it won't.

[@MarkWIXX]

@Rozrywka Po Pracy The same way people were complaining about a lack of reason to redo raid CMs and ANet actually added a reason to redo raid CMs. ANet works at the speed of slow w he nit comes to updating anything.

[@krauss025]

My biggest tooth against raiding îs the legendary armor set hiding behind it.

[@missk1697]

Just add matchmaking with "beginner", "intermediate" and "veteran" skill groups. Each group unlocks for each raid after completing it X times. And very first run could be a tutorial run with 99% damage reduction, each mechanic explained, and no actual rewards.

[@simplymezady8632]

99% damage reduction ? how the hell this came to your head ... probably the worst opinion I found so far in comment section CG

[@gontrandjojo9747]

@@simplymezady8632 Maybe not 99% damage reduction but you get the idea... When you see beginners struggling to down T1 sunqua (most of the time when they down it they are carried by a scourge or a fb doing cm, and since they don't have arc they don't even know how hard they are carried, I mean I sometimes join sunqua groups in lower tiers when it's in recs or daily when the group is already at boss to get fast encryptions and end up doing 80-90% of the dps...). So the same should be done with raids, it's way too hard for beginners (so I perfectly understand the kp issue, you don't want to have in your raid squad people that can't down some T1 fractals without being carried...) and the only solution would be to have easier modes with limited rewards. So maybe not 99% damage reduction but still less hp and easier mechanics (the same system that is used in fractals).

[@simplymezady8632]

@@gontrandjojo9747 Sorry, never seen any beginners struggling on senqua peak. I don't play any Fractals ... But yeah I got your point, but I still think that it's not the best sulution to problem, but it's just my opinion, others might find it good

[@missk1697]

@@simplymezady8632 Got anything better to suggest, then?

[@IFredDi1]

1. I'd love for Raidbosses to be selectable after the first clear (make it easier to organize a Raid/ Training) 2. Agree : ajust Rewards to be comparable to Stikes and Fractals in terms of "effort to gold per hour" -> maybe even yearly circling infusion varients (Ghostly with just red flames for example or smth similar) would likely result in a similar pricing as the other Openworld/ Event Infusions 3. maybe Titles for long term participation (as in Fracals or WvW) for extra rewards generation and currency sink 3.1. once you have the big Title maybe unlock other ways to convert currency 4. Adding to Raid(s) even tho highly unlikely

[@gozxdesastros]

If they implement better "Kill Proof" and maybe also "Mechanc Proof" or "Role Proof" they could then also implement mechanics to reward players who train others. For example when I create or join a group as trainer and "my" group then manages to kill a boss, I could get bonus rewards for every player that didnt have a "Proof" before.

[@Wolpher]

The community is the reason this occurs. I quit playing GW2 cuz, endgame fractals and raids, the people were some of the most toxic, entitled and narcissistic human beings ever. I have been playing since 2013 and it's like once raids came in, it was like the flood gates og toxicity flung open. I have had hundreds of people who are new to content that i helped out. If you want to clear things quickly, then that's on u. How about you make time and not rush people cuz of our schedule.

[@manictiger]

I'm convinced that the people that do raids have no schedule.

[@ElderNewt]

The whole system is just flawed. A lot people don't go into raids for example because they're forced to go into guilds just to do training and get a step in the door +

[@thmsbarber]

I would really like the idea of pingable achievements to show you've done mechanics. so often when pugging you have people who have plenty of kp for a boss, but only ever as a dps, and then join as a tank, or as a role that does a special mechanic that they've never had to deal with

[@bminus7377]

Been saying the same thing for years but always gets down voted.

[@MyouKyuubi]

gw2 community consists of mainly broke narcissists that can't afford to pay for regular subscription, especially the raiding part of the community... Any level of critique and they all come out of the woodwork to antagonize, demoralize and threaten you, because their whole identity is caught up in how the game is perceived, so any critique to the game, is an insult to their ego. :P Hence the downvotes... Honestly, i tried to get into raiding, but when a TRAINING RAID for the FIRST boss in the FIRST raid asked for KillProof, that's when i finally had enough of their bullsht and quit the game. xD

[@dragonbender2538]

Saw people asking 25k+ UFE to run old cm’s with some other groups asking 2k for all cm’s like no wonder people get a bad first impression, becoming a fractal god to just run old cm’s is quite daunting

[@saulius614]

Yep and its so dumb cuz the funny part is those 25k groups can be as good as 2k ones :') i mean i get that people can fake kp but its retarded to ask such amount of kp

[@BeenThereBefore_UK]

Really interesting topic, thx guys. Only thing I'd add is that, for casual players who only put in 1 or 2 hours a week, Strikes, Raids, Fractals and Dungeons represent a massive amount of practically inaccessible content. I'm not complaining as the rest of the world is massive but, it would be nice to see what the rest of the game has to offer. GW1 had all the same degrees of difficulty whereby pro-groups could smash through difficult areas fast and efficiently but... Heroes and Hench at least made it possible for someone playing solo to also enjoy all the more difficult content once they'd mastered the builds and rotations... and even if they couldn't complete areas, they could at least get in without all the toxicity we currently see around Build requirements. As someone once said to me... it's too peopley out there! ...and yes, I know it's an MMO, but not everyone wants or has the time to be sociable. ;-)

[@matta6088]

Since my static group disbanded I nearly never raid any more bc nowadays I just want to pick up raids when I might have time, but that just doesn't fit in static culture. Strikes just aren't up to scratch to bother with either.

[@shinjimirou928]

It sucks the most for OCE and SEA players in NA servers, like me. It's hard to find players who align with your time zone when you are available and most of them are not. That's why despite starting raids back in December 2020 I only got 27 boss kills in total because I can't find enough groups at my time zone. I've found raiding guilds at my timezone but eventually they become busy in life or work that we can't static or do trainings anymore.

[@whynonameistaken]

I got screamed at, called noob, idiot and "typical Hs" for talking with glenna at commanded by me no kp cairn recently while jumping into raids only to finish armor collection. Like sorry I dont know the ways people do stuff after 3y break from raids. These situations make me feel awful and I don't think anyone should feel like that while trying to have fun playing game. Sad because I would love to spend some time again raiding and doing fractals.

[@BoredAndBrowsing]

And this is one of many reasons I dont bother with raids. I'll easily get a full set of legendary armor from pvp, you dont even have to be good, and you do it on your own time. People expect too much out of casual gamers, yeah I said it, gw2 is full of casual gamers.

[@user-xo2og8kv1o]

i think raiding is perfectly fine for casual gamers, at least the lower difficulty ones. you dont have to play the game 8h a day to clear all raids. now, the definition of a "casual gamer" varies from person to person, but in my definition of a casual gamer (someone who playes the game like 8 hrs weekly, instead of daily), is perfectly fine to clear all raids, given the time. i dont understand why ppl would deny this kind of player gw2s endgame content. but if your definition of casual gamer, is a player who doesnt care about efficiency and optimizing their gear/gameplay and just hope to get by, then yes, they are right to exclude you from their group. but i generally dont think you have to be a hardcore gamer to get your gear ready, learn your class and jump into raids.

[@lewiskunst1089]

I am a returning gw2 player, got one 80... Is it going to be Grindy and take all kinds of skills(like professions/trades) in order to get gear that would allow me to raid? Is the pre raid* gear very difficult to get? Does it take a very long time? * Or can I get pre-raid gear through questing?

[@potentpositivity7772]

My issue with this system as a veteran of competitive games is that it creates a wall that will one day eventually remove any newcomers. People stop playing and as you move forward to the lack of people playing in raid content you end up in situations where you have to play with the exact same people over and over and over again and hoping they are always on to complete your raids. As someone who has played strikes, T4 fractals and no raids I don't think I would struggle due to having gone deathless in both of these contents fairly commonly as well as full clearing the raid content in games such as Destiny 1 and 2, and LOTR yet despite this I am not enthused to give raids a shot due to the bogard nature of KP

[@nevadabdo]

It needed to be one of the main pve content like in wow or ff. Too much elitism and requirements to get into raids, that provide u nothing in terms of “new gear” or unique.

[@duchaneaux]

Just change LFG into a queue system and force people to carry. I don’t ask for shitty teammates in spvp or wvw, but it is what it is and it’s accessible to everyone freely, no barriers or gate keeping. That’s just the nature of multiplayer. If elites don’t want to carry then they can choose to leave and requeue or play with their static. It’ll be painful at first, but it’ll normalize compared to pvp modes because of static mechanics where people will comprehend them after awhile. I don’t understand why this is never brought up? Turn raids into a queue, vets take a hit for awhile while new people get access and learn, and sooner than later it’ll get better and clears will start becoming normal, and there will be lots more players to play with.