What the F**k is a Sim-Lite RPG? (Ft.

[@MemphiStig]

Love seeing all the indie games coming out these days and how quickly they're getting funded. Very encouraging that so many people are turning away from the corporate nonsense of the past few years and looking for fresh and innovative games. Wish I could do more to help than just comment these days, but such is life.

[@joeoldspiritapodaca]

"Tactical conflict for social encounters"... I didn't realize that that was bothering me. Take my money! 💰 Backed and looking forward to it. 👍

[@pnptcn]

Traveller5 has a system for resolving personal interactions and non-violent conflict and I really dig it a lot. It enhances solo play and provides a useful tool for resolving just about any kind of interpersonal activity a player can conceive with a consistent system. A lot of what I've always loved about Traveller as a game could be summed up as sim-lite with the option to get really crunchy if that's your jam. Love seeing these kinds of ideas spreading, good luck on the kickstarter.

[@aled857]

Its funded, almost up to 200,000$ , damn thats was quick

[@timsanty3052]

Trevor is so well spoken. He’s clearly played a lot of RPGs. He’s a great spokesman for our hobby. I wish him the best!!!

[@benjones1452]

Wow fully funded in the first 5 minutes, this looks so cool - love that he videoed play tests on his channel; you really get a feel for the game!

[@joeg451]

It's funny, the social encounter system he described sounds exactly how I've always run social encounters in 5e and PF2e. He's absolutely right that players tend to self-police and it leads to satisfying social encounters.

[@matthewtopping]

Yeah I can't see any difference between his description of social rules and 5e except his approach sounds very prescriptive.

[@KettleHatt]

he has a more detailed explanation on his channel but they're similar in process the difference is the detail and presence of the mechanics in 5e it boils down to: determine attitude and see if it changes based on roleplay then make a charisma check to see how they react in broken empires you make skills checks during the roleplay to accumulate successes before the npc runs out of patience and the conversation ends what you get is a system more like other more roleplay focused games where the roleplay and mechanics are tied together instead of separate

[@Tysto]

Trevor seems to be on a shorts-only book tour to sell his game. He should make a shirt and pants with his hit location numbers on it and wear that outfit for these interviews. "This is the only table the game uses!"

[@Xplora213]

This inspired me to make a deez nuts joke. I don’t know why.

[@Lurklen]

My curiosity is piqued. I'm gonna check this out.

[@RPG_Bliss]

Can’t wait !

[@steelmongoose4956]

I could stand to drop a few pounds, so I’m excited to learn about sim-lite games.

[@YannMiollan]

hahahahaha "The Broken Empires is recommended by your dietician"

[@HeathBadhwar]

You're in the right place! 😂

[@lyleenright6774]

It sounds like Trevor took a "greatest hits" of 40 years of gaming to make *exactly* the game I've been struggling to imagine for about 10 years. This makes me so damn happy.

[@erodriguez927]

We're men. We're men in shorts, short shorts 🎵🎵

[@JerzyBaksinski]

Yes! Finally a perfect crossover!

[@heretic5579]

We need more geopolitical videos. That is what makes your channel unique.

[@TrippyTheShroom]

I backed it earlier today! Super glad to see it well over its goal!

[@michaelnurse9089]

My curiosity is piqued.

[@bhorrthunderhoof4925]

My homebrew rulesset was also D100 in the beginning. As simple as it was the players (me included) still needed a calculator. So as hard as it was for me back then (only 8 years ago) I switched to D10. Since then we don't need calculators anylonger 😄 Otherwise it seems that our systems have astonishing more or less the same inspiration as mine is also completely skill based. Relations and goals (short, middle and long term) are though what pushes the players forward and lets their character develop in the world.

[@benjones1452]

With Chaosium's system, which I love, you still have to calculate the degree of success and check your character sheet, Broken Empire's SL system is even easier you roll under your skill level and the tens are your Success Levels, so neat!

[@bhorrthunderhoof4925]

@@benjones1452 Interesting. I covered this differently. Mine is a roll over system - ALWAYS. Roll (W10) + Skill - difficulty = difference. The difference tells you how successfull you are. Looking forward to check your system. There will be for sure some points to steal 😇

[@victoryspath4116]

Great interview and it definitely makes me want to check out this game! I love the channel and love what you do! One request I would have is to just say the full phrase before you start using acronyms, even just once. You used the term OSR about 10,000 times in this video ... I have no idea what that is. And before someone says, just look it up, I was listening to this while I was driving and there was no looking this up for the entire trip. That is fixed just by saying the full thing once the first time and then introducing the acronym right after that. Listening to This acronym over and over again just makes for a frustrating video when I continued to have no idea what it meant. That all being said. Still loved the interview and I love Trevor and his style thanks for this interview. Really cool.

[@ruolbu]

Maybe its the contrast to the usual up beat fast paced presentation in the scripted videos, but Baron seemed REALLY unenthusiastic about this conversation xD I love Trevors work and so I'm glad he manages to pique your interest in the end. But it seemed like an uphill battle ;)

[@ILostMyOreos]

Dang, this is cool. I hadn't thought about systems in these terms before.

[@dougmartin2007]

This game sounds a lot like the old Rolemaster. That used a D100 system and could get as crunchy as you wanted, but it was all designed to have your group just ignore any portion you didn't need. The way he described the combat was exactly how I would describe the Rolemaster combat too.

[@johndoucette6085]

Agreed. It also doesn't sound sim-lite.

[@benjones1452]

@@dougmartin2007 I’ve collected a lot of the old role master supplements and the MERPS modules as well, but like he says there are no charts with this game and that’s something that made Role master just really slow. This has a really quick and narratively intense combat system. It solves a lot of the problems that something like Rolemaster has.. I definitely wouldn’t describe it as heavy on the simulation.

[@SylviusTheMad]

As a long-time GURPS fan, this ruleset sounds pretty cool.

[@iratevagabond204]

The first OSR game was Hackmaster 4E. It was a retroclone based on AD&D, including tons of optionals from all the source books and a lot of homebrew that floated around at the time. Definitely not simple or fast. lol

[@patrykantos6595]

Not HackMaster. HarnMaster. A very simulationist game. You can die from infected wounds and all that.

[@iratevagabond204]

@@patrykantos6595 Harnmaster Gold is my favorite system, but I wouldn't call it OSR, or a retroclone of D&D. Part of what makes the Kenzer & co story so cool is their victory in court over WoTC to retain their rights of Knights of the Dinner Table, and the ability to make Hackmaster 4e. Hackmaster 4e went on to win the Origins game of the year. This spearheaded retroclones and the OSR. It's just most OSR people are more on the narrativist side, with "rulings over rules" and seem allergic to more complex systems, seeming to pretend AD&D 1e & 2e didn't exist.

[@TomTrustworthy]

Can't wait to play this game!

[@jcraigwilliams70]

I guess the only issue I have with this is how the player will now be playing their stats, rather than trying to problem-solve on their own, and that's something that many recent games have tried to move away from. For example, as Trevor explains, a player might say something that is very wise and compelling, but if they have a low score (or lack the skill completely) they will fail. While that is valid, I'm thinking of how many games might present players with a puzzle that they, themselves, can figure out. "Oh, I need to flip that switch and then pull the lever to disarm the trap!" That may be the correct answer, but if their character lacks the relevant skill, they'll end up killing themselves despite having solved the problem.

[@Daexusnol]

Given how it can strain the suspense of disbelief whenever a player says something moving and yet the roll fails anyways(or you have to roll at all), I definitely see where you're coming from. However, I'd say my opinion on that is that you're not really playing the system, you're playing the "what does the GM want to hear?" game. That and failed speech rolls can still make great roleplay opportunities, especially when the GM helps to spin it into a fail forward situation.

[@Wlof25]

And that should be happening. Stats and skills are defining the character.

[@hsen71]

I find the social mechanics sound very similar to how it's played usual. My players don't try sounding intimidating then trying to persuade someone. About the puzzle - well the GM calls for rolls. Not the game. And player knowledge isn't the same thing as character knowledge. Just because someone is a car mechanic their character can't automatically fix cars.

[@michaelnurse9089]

I think this problem is an invented problem. Think of doing taxes, a ton of people who never trained for years as a tax expert can do their own taxes. But they lack the ability to deal with difficult problems. The DM needs to present players with appropriate difficulty problems - and modify difficulty on the fly from time to time if needed.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

@Wlof25 which is why I said it's valid, if that's the character they made. But as I said, many games, particularly within the OSR, lean more into the player solving problems as this allows greater creativity. A player can think of a solution to a problem, but a lot of people today will spend their time staring at their sheet thinking "what am I allowed to do?" instead of trying to solve the problem themselves, which can limit creativity.

[@UntoldRelic]

I'm a simple man. I'll try any game that let's me roll dice for hit locations.

[@juauke]

Another interview, oh yeah!

[@MykeDiemart]

Sounds like he made a 'best of' hits from his gaming. I like the Ars Magica magic system he mentions that inspired his system. The social system described is how I have run games even D&D/OSR types, you can use the reaction tables, and of course, the player is not often at the same skill level as the character. I do think I'd like this game

[@samurguybriyongtan146]

I wish he answered “why should a person make their own system?” expansively.

[@benjones1452]

That would've been cool cos we all do don't we - I mean I have homebrew out the kazoo, with spell backfire mechanics and popcorn initiative, or the cool 12 sided hit location die I use to give more flavour.

[@Flackon]

Game designers will always come up with systems

[@Linruat]

how about because hasbro/wotc will take any and every opportunity to use their ownership of the DnD title to extort you for more money?

[@jj-sc1kq]

Thanks for the interesting video. I am curious who my possession rules might mesh with this. It sounds very interesting.

[@JKevinCarrier]

Doesn't sound like it's for me, but having more options and styles of games available is never a bad thing. I wish him luck with it! My beef with skill-based systems is that they are often very open to abuse -- the min-maxers quickly figure out which combination of skills gives them the biggest tactical advantage, while players who choose their skills based on vibes or story logic get left in the dust. I wonder if there's any system in place to maintain balance between characters, or is just left for the GM to police?

[@MietoK]

Well If the game has some other content other than combat then it usually screws minmaxers. For example travel and encounter rules help

[@jeffwhittingham5314]

It depends on what sort of game you are running. The same min/max build that's abusive in a combat heavy campaign will be useless in a political intrigue scenario where persuade and deception are the best skills on your character sheet. For this reason, the idea of balance in TTRPG's is IMO vastly overrated. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest it can't actually exist.

[@daviddobarganes9115]

I think the GM will always have to give each character a time to shine, it doesnt have to be combat power

[@jasonGamesMaster]

Balance is completely illusory unless the only rules you have are combat (like OSR/ D&D). I only play skill based and can confirm this is no more a problem than having a fighter and a bard in the same party

[@ruolbu]

it really depends on the group and activities. If the group wants a combat focus and everyone is on board with optimising, then that's good. Seeking coherent groups can make this a none issue. In mixed groups I'd say the GM has to offer varied scenarios the play to different strengths, where the minmaxed combat build isn't the default fallback but maybe even a liability and risk.

[@simontemplar3359]

Oh man... At first i was thinking "i don't know that sounds crunchy," but the more Trevor explained the more i was like ... Well of course its important to support people who make cool things that make our lives better..." I'm totally going to end up involved with the KS. Im just pretending i wont. Lol

[@benjones1452]

It's funny the more I listen to him describe his game the more it reminded me of FATE core (different dice of course), but it has the many of the same narrative mechanics. It is really just as he says, it's a blend of what he likes best from the games he's played. I love a game where I can have the o prep that he has on this channel, or at least where I can jot down on the back of an envelope what I want and then let the game unfold.

[@XMaster340]

That sounds amazing! (And a lot like the system I've been working on for a couple of years now). I'll definitely look into it. There are way to few sim-lite tabletop RPGs out there. Most seem to either completely ignore simulationist players, like DnD, Shadowdark and all of the cinematic systems, or go the sim-heavy way, like Warhammer, Shadowrun, The Dark Eye, etc.

[@ruolbu]

good old dark eye... when you take simple dungeon crawling and add German precision xD

[@benjones1452]

@@XMaster340 As you say Shadowrun it’s simheavy, I’m playing in a game of shadowrun right now and Foundry is doing the heavy lifting but it’s really cool! This a want to take to the table without, I a new GM and I don’t want to kill myself.

[@dinbabwa452]

Why is no one talking about how Barron CE Ropp lifts!?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

@@dinbabwa452 400lbs+ deadlift ORM

[@ruolbu]

I count two now xD

[@aaronsomerville2124]

9:35 the least awesome thing I can imagine.

[@ruolbu]

fair, I think its a great mindest for genuine role playing, to know when to speak up in which manner and when not to.

[@atriton6645]

It's my least favorite thing about modern gaming. The best bonus is more important than the best plan. I was in a game my character gave a logical reason for the locals to do a thing, rolled an 11 +1 result failure. I blame the DM more than the system but still it urks me to this day.

[@Muzzleflash1990]

@@atriton6645 IMO you are right, it kinda is on the DM for that, if the reasoning given is very compelling and would make sense to reject. I was playing BG3 with some friends, and they were looking at the choices and their corresponding skill check of what to say to an NPC. As they were hovering over sentences, the popup explained what their bonus to the die roll would be. I often had to stop and remind then that: yes you decide your bonus by your approach. But the DM (the game) decides the DC of that approach. So I was like: "Yes, you do get a +5 with Persuasion instead of +2 with Intimidation if you choose this option, but with what you have learned so far about this NPC, do you really think this guy is more amenable to be Persuaded rather then Intimidated? Consider that the DC to beat with Persuasion might be 15 and the one for Intimidation only 10". And in my tabletop games, even if saying both A or B has will both be the skill check, A might have a lower DC than B because it seems more compelling to the receiver.

[@juliancoker368]

The idea that “self-policing” is a good and admirable thing to aim for in an RPG is insane to me. Imagine thinking it’s a plus for your game design that your system encourages players to tell each other to shut up and only let the person with the best number speak. This is already rampant in 5E!

[@aaronsomerville2124]

@@juliancoker368 I absolutely agree.

[@MrDowntemp0]

Really wanna see you play this system!

[@jasonGamesMaster]

Trevor's channel actually has an entire season where he is playing it while designing it. The first few episodes are a little rough because the game is still pretty rough, but the last 6 or so have been really smooth and showcase everything quite well

[@MrDowntemp0]

@@jasonGamesMaster Yeah, I've been subscribed since season 1. But seeing Baron use his worldbuilding prowess with the system would be interesting as hell.

[@BlueCyberPhoenix]

OK. The title summed up my thoughts, and when I heard skill based system he had my attention and interest immediately. Shadow run is a skill based system and I love it.

[@benjones1452]

Same, I'm in a 5th edition game at the moment - it’s very crunchy, this seems a lot less crunchy though.

[@andrewthomas7202]

I like the idea of moving away from the abstract, however, I would suggest that making a table for the specifics of where a hit landed limits you. Yes, it does remove some creative responsibilities away from the game but where NPCs get hit should never be on him in the first place. It should be the player’s responsibility for describing where they are attacking and a table eliminates that altogether. They’re just back to rolling dice. That’s my opinion anyway. Thanks for another great video.

[@hotwheels2621]

Very interesting video, I feel more well informed. Sim-Lite sounds like its definitely not my favored direction though.

[@beowulfshaeffer8444]

Not really what I'm looking for right now, but it sounds interesting!

[@richardb4665]

I am totally distracted by the shorts and bare legs. I thought you were all about the suit and tie, Baron!

[@jloren4647]

Good vid. I sub both channels. I could see a simple Q and A exchange making easy content for both of you. Almost like a believer, nonbeliever Q A that's never meant to actually win, but to have the philosophy of the thing.

[@JohnnyDoom]

Love that Deadlifts shirt. I have the same one.

[@claudiaborges8406]

Hex-crawls and encumbrance is a low bar for a sim game. Those game be sim mechanics but when I think of sim games I think of a GURPS game with 20 stats for a gun or a mil-sim game that requires you to remember who moved last turn to figure out if they’re harder to hit (which sucks to remember) like a war-game but with micro instead of macro. I’m using modern combat-related examples because those are the most common sim games from my POV

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Cream has been rising to the top lately

[@andykaufman7620]

Here's a question did you ask the creator of Shadow Dark 'Why should someone make a rule set? question"

[@BeardedDevil-cn9tw]

Hello, by any chance do you have any actual plays demonstrating practical examples of the theories that you have espoused on your channel?

[@CScott-wh5yk]

@DungeonMasterpiece Off topic, but I remember you mentioning you do geopolitical training. Is any of that available to the public in an on-demand product?

[@travisbaggett2813]

I love all Dungeon Masterpiece videos!

[@Drudenfusz]

Doesn't sound like a system for me, but I wish them nevertheless all the success they are hoping for!

[@FablesD20]

100%!

[@Twisted_Logic]

This... honestly sounds very similar to the game I'm working on in a lot of ways (but mine is 2d6 because I like the math of it and a different sort of setting). Def gonna have to take a look at this, as it seems specifically tailored to my tastes lol

[@Fo0tie]

He is number one sales man 😂

[@teddynoteddie6826]

Deadlifts & Dragons!!!!!

[@bonzwah1]

The social encounters idea sounds fun, but it sounds like it mandates that players create speaking lines for their characters, which is a lot of pressure for some players. - Is this game system not for people who dont like crafting speaking lines for their character then? Because it sounds like if you allow the players to just narrate their actions in social situations vaguely, then it becomes a trivial game of saying “my character uses X skill” and then you really are just rolling dice and not making choices

[@benjones1452]

As he says, while I do love it when my players actually speak their own lines, but you can just 3rd person it. There are so many skills real world improv. skills you can use to make this easier for a player, and the dividends for the immersion are huge.

[@The-Gate-House-Grognard]

How much does Baron deadlift?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

@@The-Gate-House-Grognard 455 is my one rep max. Just went back down to 320 tho. My nervous system couldn't handle it.

[@The-Gate-House-Grognard]

@@DungeonMasterpiece DAMN! That's awesome

[@Xplora213]

@@DungeonMasterpiecemy old coach suggested 6 weeks could be the recovery period required after a truly heavy pull. 320 is child’s play for a 450 puller lol😂

[@ericjome7284]

Simulation is the opposite of abstraction. There are detailed rules for everything. Weight, speed, friction, fuel use, range... everything is as compatible with a real world situation as it can be. How hot is the fire? How long can you hold your breath? Where precisely did you hit the orc? What is the currency exchange rate today? How many weeks are spent in recovery if you fall down a 12' hole? A gamist approach is not concerned with narrative or simulation but is instead all about playing. It is a fun use of mechanical operation where players manage resources and score points. It is not concerned with fidelity with reality, but on engaging play. It might have cards as well as dice, there might be multiple resources to manage, using board game style action like pushing your luck, auctions, or exploding dice. A narrative approach seeks to put control of the story in different player's hands at different times. It expects the player to literally tell a story about what happened in the world. Sometimes it mist remain consistent with previously established canon, sometimes not. Players can invent new characters, objects, or situations, things classically reserved to GMs. Simulation would say the story emerges from play. Gamist isn't concerned with story but with clever play.

[@ericjome7284]

RPGs were invented by war gamers. War gamers often have a strong simulation streak. Comparing how military units would operate in different scenarios was part of the hobby. Lethality indices, how chain mail resists slashing while being vulnerable to piercing, could Roman soldiers really march 30 miles a day and still be in fighting form. Speculation and citation, research and details are core simulation. Simulation feels odd when we start to wander off into things that don't exist. Simulation might be able to address a fireball by considering how a Molotov cocktail might work. But they quickly fall apart with dragons and magic. If dragons and magic obey any rules at all they just aren't real enough to definitively say. A gamist approach though, can handle anything. It's just points on a track, a number to overcome with a dice roll plus modifiers. And I'd like to get a bonus on my roll because the thrush told me where the dragon's weak spot is. And I'll use my special arrow of slaying, this being what I saved it for. Am I using the rules and my resources to create fun moments, taking special actions? It doesn't need to be "realistic", just mechanically consistent and interesting When the creators of RPGs attempted to merge Lord of the Rings with Gauls vs Romans ,they solved these questions using gamist approaches. We roll dice. You have hit points as a resource. Armor is just a class, not subject to physics.

[@ericjome7284]

Narrative authority. Who among those playing the game is authorized to create things or situations in the established fictional scenario? Traditionally, players control the decisions of their characters. The GM does everything else. But why? Why can't a player establish "we come across a cave where goblins are lairing"? Telling the story doesn't have to be a game with dice, sanity checked against reality. Whoever has the coolest idea should just add that stuff in! Lets take turns and vote on what each person adds or decides! This approach makes the gamers and the simulationists cringe. But it can be a window onto really cool things happening. So maybe we can season the dish with some of this? Prowlers & Paragons says that if you "win" a scene by having made good decisions and rolled well, you get to decide what happens at the end. The end isn't you looting a treasure chest. But if that's what you want, say that. Maybe instead you decide the curse is lifted? Or the villain admits they're wrong and promises to make amends?

[@ericjome7284]

Simulation sucks because it is slow and obsessed with detail. If you really tried to swing from a chandelier, you'd break it and fall on your ass. Everything cool is unrealistic, so lots of penalties on all your dice rolling! Hiding behind a heavy table taking careful shots with a crossbow from behind cover is what you'll be doing. Every time. Forever. Gamist sucks because it's so artificial and abstract;. We're supposed to be enjoying exploring a haunted house. There's danger and the unknown! So what if you have enough Sanity to search the basement and a vial of holy water to splash on the ghost? Maybe it's not even a ghost! And what does losing 6 Sanity points even mean?! Narrative sucks because you just made it up! A victory isn't earned. You didn't roll high and it didn't cost you anything. How could the hero even lift the portcullis? It weighs a ton! Your boy genius wizarding school student would have been stabbed in an alley by someone trying to score points with the big bad.

[@benjones1452]

@@ericjome7284 What a very thought-provoking bit you wrote, and I agree with a lot of what you said. I run FATE but love to play Shadowrun with friends which is very crunchy, so am no stranger to the argument. I wonder, Eric, did you check out his play test? It is very interesting. I was struck by how he makes rulings using an oracle, Mythic I think. This is part of the DNA of his game, as I understand it. The goal is to create outcomes that are both strategically deep and easy to narrate, but to an extent unfolding. This reminds me of FATE, there is a nontrivial influence there, not just the zone maps or aspects. You mentioned that "Simulation is the opposite of abstraction," but simulation is itself abstraction, the map is not the territory. The important question is: “What experience are you trying to simulate?” So representation is always a choice, you focus on the essential. This is about verisimilitude for certain values of "truthlikeness" tied to a set of aesthetic values: 1. GMing a speedy game, 2. Role-Playing characters with goals for whom deep strategic options are available, and 3. to some extent embedding the directorial techniques of fantasy movies. After watching his play test, I think we share a lot of his aesthetic concerns. I confess, I have a burning desire to get my damp little mitts on this game.

[@D9270-f8t]

And all of them are valid ways to play and people should respect the others' preferences

[@elouenandril6671]

i have to admit i didn't quite understood how his social system works and what it brings, he did say it was tactical and the functionning of a only-skill system but i didn't understood why it was tactical. does someone know the system more in detail? Also i would have loved for him to talk about how wilderness works, as far as i understand OSR, there is really also a focus on travel and wilderness

[@benjones1452]

Check out the game testing in S4 Legacy Eps1-9 it is a blast and for the social mechanic just check out MMD S4 Legacy Eps 5: "Allies and Enemies" at 12:00/37:55, I loved this and especially for the idea of degrees of success in social outcomes it is pretty cool.

[@Mr_Chinchila]

Check his channel MeMyselfandDie there are videos explaining each aspect of the game and Season 4 of his Solo RPG Series is basically him developing/playtesting the game as he goes. So there might be a lot of stuff that is a bit different from the final product, yet as the episodes go it slowly refines the game more and more. Btw, I think episode 4? I can't recall. There is one of the scenes that is the Social Conflict system in practice. The idea is the "tactical" what you say, or say your character is attempting to say, will determine what skill is used on the roll. You don't go "I roll persuade" you Speak First then roll the skill the GM and the Table agreed it sounded like. And NPCs have certain skills they are more amicable towards and others that skills simply auto-fail. Like for example, you could have an NPC that rolling intimidate auto-fails because they don't like being pushed around, yet enjoy being Inspired by big words. Or something like that, this is a rough idea from what I gathered.

[@elouenandril6671]

@@Mr_Chinchila thanks for your awnser and your time! I might be wrong but it seems that this way of resolution of social conflict is exactly the same with a lot of game with specific skills, including DnD5e. The player describe an action the GM, DM, referee, ask for a skill check they see fit. it looks fun to have that element of "personnal sensibility" being an explicit mechanical element of the game! the auto-fail might be a bit weird to me but if there is a good way to gather up information it is no problem im sure do you know if you can have bonuses if you have a sound argument or use clever tactics?

[@Mr_Chinchila]

@@elouenandril6671 I think it's up to the GM and depends on context of the situation (he uses a lot of +20/-20 for situational bonuses/penalties). And yeah it is sorta samish, it's just my experience with 5e has been very poor in social dynamics / conflicts that the lack of proper guidance the books provide incentives. Anyway-

[@elouenandril6671]

​@@Mr_Chinchila That sucks. i get what you mean, i believe that is so much media coverage with 5e that everyone as formed their weird opinions and want to imposes their vision to everyone else. For me everyone where always hyped to play but not everybody had the mentality to play a game where others are really important too. thanks for the awnser by the way and i really hope that today you play with a groupe that have better social dynamics that you previously had

[@atriton6645]

I would play it if someone I knew wanted to run it. But I wouldn't buy it. To be honest it sounded very annoying to me. I could easily be wrong, but he just hilighted everything I hate dealing with like it was a positive.

[@benjones1452]

Exactly, it can make the most difficult and annoying areas in most modern TTRPGs engaging, but you need to see him run it, don't take my word for it. I would love to set my first broken empires campaign, in a return to Barovia, Ravenloft setting, in the midst of those rulers of the adjacent lands fighting each other after the power vacuum left by Strad, that instigates all out conflict. I've been reading this proactive role-playing book and this system would really suit that kind of game: no more endless discussion of how large should Barovia be to balance the combat, the Broken Empires travel mechanic means it can be as large or small as you like - I would want to make Barovia huge the size of the whole of the Carpathian basin with lots of factions. DnD has turned into the locked room, haunted house, play house simulator and it's so boring.

[@dustybikes86]

It looks cool but do they have the rights to lord of the rings and history channels Vikings? because there is clearly a picture of Floki and a picture of Aragorn featured...

[@stephenbateman9776]

Sounds like Burning Wheel Gold to me 🥸

[@benjones1452]

It might if it weren't so straight forward, Burning Wheel Gold book is so awkward - especially when you use the three attack pattern complex Duel of Wits system, it has a kind of gambling appeal, but it is very artificial. Especially for missile combat, it works great there. This is more like an improv prompt, or something like Skulduggery by Robin D Laws where you have a rock paper scissors dynamic that you use to both understand who you are and to whom you are speaking, but it is actually from 'The One Ring' TTRPG, but it's cool, great because you don't need to know rules to play as long as your GM is aware: "you do you", it's beautiful - honestly. It rewards honest role play, without needing any silly voices.

[@jeremiahcunkle5938]

Nice use of BadWrongFun

[@GnarledStaff]

Crap, this might have been the game I was looking for, will check this out. Edit: hmm, maybe not. That social combat system sounds less like what I was looking for, but maybe it wasn’t explained well because it just sounded like basic DnD.

[@Walross]

It’s a lot closer to The One Ring v1 than to Basic D&D. 9 social skills - either role play what you are going to say to the person you are trying to convince, or just tell the GM what your character says (if you’re not into RP’ing in first person). The GM then decides - based on what you said - which social skill applies. So if you suck at Intimidation for instance, better to try not to sound threatening. You roll the applicable skill and your success levels apply against a target. You can keep trying to rack up success levels, but the NPC only has a certain amount of tolerance. Fail too many times, and the conversation ends with a penalty to the SL’s you’ve accumulated.

[@1979fsa]

Simulationism is not for me nor "duel of wits" combat. I think a debate or interrogation scene are great RP opportunities and i don't want to steal it from the players.

[@Daexusnol]

That's fine, I get that. Not every system is for everyone. I'm normally not a simulationist guy either. And yes, they are! However, I don't think adding social encounter rules inherently get in the way of RP. Rather, RP opportunities can emerge from structured encounters like that if the system does it well. If it can happen in combat encounters, it can happen in social encounters

[@Xplora213]

Without being difficult, if your players are truly that convincing, they aren’t playing a game anymore. They usually use their charisma at the bar. But the DM response is always a biased one without a dice to decide the answer.

[@benjones1452]

I'm not sure if it's 'sealing', your right that the duel of wits, in burning wheel, is flawed. This it doesn't mean every social encounter is gamified, but it does allow you to elicit roleplay procatively, it helps your players connect with their characters, and not just spend time looking at the numbers, while just being the same version of themselves they always play?

[@SofaKingDead]

I am confused about the difference between the charismatic speech example of how social encounters happen in most games and how his game is different. He makes a big deal about the word choice is the tactical aspect of the system. Choosing the right words to say in a social situation is just as much an aspect of that players natural charisma as tone of voice and delivery. I think you still end with the same result.

[@mr.bluesky4130]

And if the skill is triggered by key words, what stops players from figuring out what key words trigger which skills through play? Let alone just looking it up in the rules.

[@shacharashkenazi6910]

The social system is more robust then explained here.. I advise checking out trevor's video on the social system in his channel. The point that trevor was trying to make is that you don't say what you are trying to do ("I'm trying to intimidate him" for exampe) but say what your character would say and than you roll the die, so while the player's words trigger the skill, its the skill of the character that determins the success.

[@blacklodgegames]

​@@shacharashkenazi6910Yeah it sounds very interesting. Social mechanics are always tricky but I like his approach.

[@YannMiollan]

on @MeMyselfandDieRPG‬'s channel there is a video called '"The Gloaming Pool" Highlight Trailer' where he platests the game. You can see starting at 7m a social encounter and what it looks like. In it, you see Kelsey Dionne saying intimidating things even though her character has very low intimidation.

[@bonnie115]

Have a look at the shorts on Trevor's channel where he explains different aspects of the game including social encounters. Broken Empires is meant to balance out a players tactical choices with the character's skill in social encounters in much the same way that physical combat is a balance of the character's abilities and the player's choices. We don't expect a 6'2" body-builder playing a gnome wizard whose str is their dump stat to succeed at arm-wrestling the barbarian in the tavern, do we? That wouldn't make any sense, would it? But, somehow it's okay for a extrovert with oodles of charima who loves the sound of their own voice to succeed when trying to persuade the bandit leader to not kill the whole party when their character's dump stat is charima. That's deeply unfair and ridiculous.

[@AvonofTalamh]

It's both funny and sad that Trevor chose Broken Empires and I'm working on Broken Oaths... They're different, I swear!

[@chwig7354]

What's broken oaths?

[@AvonofTalamh]

@@chwig7354 my own setting and system. It's not at all anything official, just a similar name, made me chuckle.

[@AvonofTalamh]

​@@chwig7354it's my own very unofficial system and setting. Just funny that he chose a similar name, gave me a chuckle.

[@ruolbu]

it's also funny that that was not his first choice in naming the game, but the ideal name was too close to some established brand, so no dice there.

[@jaredccain]

That sounds very much Sim heavy. 🤔

[@tuomasronnberg5244]

"My game does detailed combat, but there's also complex social mechanics, and travel moves and magic!" "Cool, what mechanics it uses?" "It's basically a D&D clone" 😂

[@AvonofTalamh]

@@tuomasronnberg5244 I must've watched a different video, sounded nothing like D&D to me.

[@arrghhscott]

Sounds so cool, what a great idea.

[@YannMiollan]

what simulationist game are you comparing it to?

[@shacharashkenazi6910]

@@tuomasronnberg5244 "My game doesn't use a d20 system and doesn't have classes and levels".. Yea, a D&d clone...

[@GenreBGoode]

List of mechanics taken from other successful games - check Overly complex combt system -check Buzz words and marketing spiel - check Honestly this seems like it is going to be too complex and bland to be fun for me.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

Lol. It's anything but bland. And the combat is actually really simple. You can watch h him actually play it on his channel and see. It's actually super fast

[@ruolbu]

I have to agree that Trevor seemingly got the full marketing package, his channel, his collabs, his Kickstarter, its very smooth. But the product is solid I believe. taking well working mechanics is the bread and butter of game dev, and combat with some meat to chew on is a popular game style, so nothing wrong with either of them.

[@benjones1452]

I have been enthralled by his play test stuff, not so much the marketing jazz, the production itself, especially in the first episode but the travel and the social, oh and the LoS dice rolling, I would gladly incorporate as homebrew into something like Call of Cthulhu or any d100 game. I guess it's true what Picasso said "Good artists copy, great artists steal."

[@D9270-f8t]

all 3 points are valid and there is nothing wrong with any of them

[@aurvay]

Guess I've never been less excited about a gaming product in my life lol. Maybe 2024 D&D. Nevertheless, good luck to these guys. They'll need it.

[@D9270-f8t]

Simulationist game in 2024 will turn a lot of people away and that's understandable. His pereference doesn't follow the recent trends but he found an audience with similar taste so the kickstarter seems to be doing quite well, they achived almost 250k after a day

[@benjones1452]

I've backed this because of the play-testing, but it's very ambitious and there are plenty of reasons that it might fail, lack of balance and its the unknown unknowns that give me pause. But, the OGL scandal kind of exposed a lack of protections for process such that you can if you have the balls just weave all the bits you like from other games together, shamelessly, :). The real challenge is to make it work. Trevor loves these games, but he sees the potential to stitch and cut, I think you can do it. You expressed how little you think of it, such that it's obviously not the game for you, even though there's not much meat on that bone, but I am really excited about it.

[@ElderGoblinGames]

Yo Baron! I got your comment on my last video and tried to email you. Let me know if you still want to collab on something. My email is in my channel links. Thanks!

[@tracyburnham604]

“And it’s awesome!” 😐🫤

[@bonzwah1]

The social encounters idea sounds fun, but it sounds like it mandates that players create speaking lines for their characters, which is a lot of pressure for some players. - Is this game system not for people who dont like crafting speaking lines for their character then? Because it sounds like if you allow the players to just narrate their actions in social situations vaguely, then it becomes a trivial game of saying “my character uses X skill” and then you really are just rolling dice and not making choices

[@Mr_Chinchila]

Not every social interaction is a social conflict. Only when there are stakes tied to it, then it becomes one. And when there are consequences to interacting socially with someone, then yes the tactics are tied to what you say or say your characters attempt to say, which will trigger skills to further get what you want. The player doesn't determine the skill used, the choice of words of what their character do describing or giving a speech does. And that is usually determined by the GM and Table agreeing what it sounded like.

[@benjones1452]

@@Mr_Chinchila that's a great description of it. I can see there's a lot of fear over this, but it looks fairly accessible in play - I just stole this idea for a scene in a game I'm running where I tell the players that if they want to persuade the NPCs (kids on a space station) to reveal the information they'll need to connect with them (they all had t-shirts with their favourite things) and it was really fun; and much like the appeal-to mechanic that is used in broken empires.