What Was the Great Schism and Why Did It Happen? (With Dr. Stephen Nichols)

I'm asking about what the Great Schism between the Eastern and Western Churches was all about. Dr. Stephen Nichols from the popular podcast 5 Minutes in Church History and Ligonier Ministries is my guest to talk about that.
Thanks to the people who make this channel happen by supporting it through www.thetmbh.com/support
Here's a link to that video about Greek Orthodoxy: • A Protestant Learns Ab...

[@mitchberning]

Matt. You should moderate a discussion between a catholic academic and an orthodox academic. It would be great to go deeper.

[@stephenyoung8069]

Bishop Barron and Father Stephen De Young

[@trevorharrison1989]

@@stephenyoung8069 I was just going to write Fr Stephen. P.S. Are you Fr Stephen?

[@Chris-lf4sr]

He'd be hard pressed to find a Latin Catholic who knows anything about the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Any type of EO seminary teaches Church History, including the Latin Church and its children, from the greater Protestant Reformation Era. I'm saying that it would most likely be unfair to the Latin because he would not know very much about the objective history of the Church due to the heavy Latin propaganda.

[@Beugsie]

I say he should host a wrestling match between an Orthodox and Catholic priest. That sounds like more fun. But a discussion works too

[@Chris-lf4sr]

@Jerry that's an easy one. The biggest claim I've heard and seen is that the Pope has always been the head and sole authority in all Church matters. This means that whatever he says, all bishops and everyone in the Church must do. This is false. The Bishop of Rome never had such authority, nor anything approaching that until Charlemagne used the Pope to legitizimize his own reign. Then the idea of the Pope having any worldly authority beyond his own chain of command was introduced. Further, the Pope is not infallible. This includes when he is speaking ex cathedra because no man is infallible. In fact, the doctrine doesn't even show up in Church history until 1869. The immaculate deception, is also a bit of late Latin propaganda, not defined until 1854. There is also this idea that being first in honor among equals somehow means anything other than having the best seat at the dinner table. It does not. All of Church history shows no other Patriarchate ever interpreted the Pope to be anything more than another Patriarchate.

[@xhenifromtheblock5812]

Matt, as a cradle Orthodox (Greek and Albanian living in the U.S.) I’m soooo sorry to hear about the experience you and your family had while attempting to attend a Divine Liturgy!! I’m happy to say that is NOT the way visitors are treated at any of the churches I frequently attend. And, I thank you for being charitable enough to recall the other experiences that you had with Orthodoxy that were positive. I appreciate that you aren’t letting that one visit color your view of the whole denomination.

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

I appreciate that. Thanks.

[@philmattox8500]

Matt, let me add a loud and lusty AMEN to Xeni's post. Former Southern Baptist and Roman Catholic now Eastern Orthodox. So appalled and embarrassed by the negative reception you had st an Eastern Orthodox Church. I guess from my background I have been blessed to see how much Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox have in common than to be absorbed in how we differ. We should love and respect each other while standing fast with our traditions. I am a communicant of a parish of the Orthodox Church in America. We, as I believe most Orthodox congregations see anyone visiting us, whatever their faith (or lack thereof) as guests and are to be treated as such. Hospitality is a BASIC and ancient Biblical principle. When practicing Hospitality we are doing God's work. Again, I am so sorry for the lack of Hospitality that you experienced at an Orthodox Church. God continue to bless your ministry of which I am an enthusiast fan!

[@robertedwards909]

Orthodox have nothing to do with works salvation

[@robertedwards909]

That's anathema it's only by grace

[@scottgoodson1847]

I visited an Orthodox vespers service during one of the more restrictive covid periods as a student observer for part of my graduate studies. Aside the priest and cantor, I was the only person in physical attendance. Priest took time to detail a few of the "special differences" between how things would ordinarily be done, and how much I could/couldn't participate as a protestant. Was a fine service and enjoyable evening. Love my brethren in Orthodoxy; even if they see my side of the Christian family more like weird cousins 😂

[@SOC1389]

Would be very interesting to have had an Orthodox on the panel to gauge their responses and opinions with that of Dr Nichols

[@justin_messer]

As an Orthodox Catechumen currently undergoing studies, I can say that is not the experience that I had since I physically started attending my Orthodox Church last fall. I have been graced by having a truly kind and understanding priest as well as a church family that has supported me throughout my catechumenate. I apologize on behalf all Orthodox, catechumens and parishioners, and ask that you overlook our poor behavior.

[@djurote3932]

Maybe he run into a baptism or some other type of service. Granted some of my fellow Serbs can act like he just described tho.

[@markmarley2556]

What I find fascinating is how much the Catholic and Orthodox Churches still share in common despite 1,000 years of separation, the sacraments, apostolic succession, episcopal governance, theology etc. The Protestant Reformation is recent by comparison, and Protestant Churches are dying out all over Europe. Protestantism is still strong in the Americas but shares little in common with historical Christianity, as practised by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

[@michaelangeloaguinaldo5154]

If shared by both, it must be true!

[@Drhaddadd1]

What is more amazing is the similarities between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox after 1500 years apart. More so than with the Roman Catholic. It goes to show you what the original church was like.

[@pfc4156]

Visit Ireland and see how well the Roman Catholic Church!The Roman Catholic Church has no influence or respect as the truth is coming out about the child abuse and child sexual abuse by priests and nuns.The only people carrying christanity to people are protestants in Ireland!

[@michaelangeloaguinaldo5154]

@@Drhaddadd1 Even better! If shared by all the ancient churches, it must be true. What are those doctrines?

[@origamitraveler7425]

Sacramentalism (7 sacraments), baptismal regeneration, real presence in eucharist, episcopacy, apostolic succession, saint canonization and veneration are probably the big ones.

[@BrianPurcell72]

As a math professor, I appreciate you using the sunk cost fallacy term correctly.

[@johnzeiger910]

That's ridiculous. That's almost like saying 4 + 4 is 5

[@amieroberg5252]

When the Orthodox say “mystery” we don’t mean “mystery” as if we won’t know it…we mean mystery as in, it is something we come to know through participation…In the East, Christianity isn’t a list of propositions as if we get clues and figure it out. It is not systematic. It is participatory.

[@DRNewcomb]

Two points: 1. The Great Schism was as much about who was the state church of the Roman Empire as it was about theology. 2, I haven't heard much mentioned about the impact on Eastern Orthodoxy of living for hundreds of years under Muslim domination. This reflects itself in a certain inward view and tendency toward circumlocution.

[@njstuckey]

Interesting, you mean the Orthodox church was shaped towards isolation in part as a defense mechanism? Because evangelism/proselytizing would've been too dangerous under Muslim rule?

[@justin_messer]

@@njstuckeymakes sense. Apostasy in Islam is a death penalty offense. That’s not to say that preaching didn’t disappear completely. The Russians were known for having monastics, priests, and even bishops act as itinerant preachers, especially amongst the unreached in Siberia and the Muslim populations of the Kazakhs and Turkomans of the Kazakh steppe.

[@johnboyx63]

@DRNewcomb excellent points!

[@stevenharder308]

Circumlocution is an apt term.

[@ZZZELCH]

That was an excellent discussion. I’m always sad to hear anything bad about the Church, but I am glad you’ve continued your journey of investigation. My sincere apologies for the parish you described. -an Orthodox brother in Christ.

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

I appreciate that. Thanks.

[@Reverend1776]

Great to hear from a fellow South Dakotan. We should do a series on schism within modern American denominations...lots of schims in the making. Thanks for your faithful wisdom and exploration.

[@sendieloo]

That would be very interesting!

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

Such as the Methodists split(s). Of course, they weren't American to begin with, but the debates mainly happened in the US.

[@MargaretCutt-um8iq]

i think it's a sign of the times... the wheat and chaff being separated. It is happening in every denomination which sort of lends to the idea that we're just seeing the start of things to come......

[@peterbirdsall524]

I had the privilege of attending Reformation Bible College under the presidency of Dr. Stephen Nichols. I am so glad to see you interviewing him for this important topic.

[@goodwinlaw]

Speaking of the "rest of the iceberg", another issue that the Eastern Church had with the West is dominion and expansion. While the Pope in Rome was regarded as a Senior Bishop, he was never seen as a sole authority. As the Roman Bishop gained more power and access to expansion to the opening of Europe, he started making unilateral decisions. The Church in the East didnt agree with that at all because some of the changes were theological in nature, changing a thousand years of belief and tradition.

[@zakr911]

Matt, I love your videos. I come from a Baptist family and Converted to Catholicism in college and every time I watch your videos, I learn something new. I've often had the wish that there wasn't so much separation between the churches, living in the deep south. Even if it's only theological, I'm glad the churches are united in theory. Personally, I'm not very knowledgeable of Church politics as I am on Medieval Church history. But, I hope to find all denominations of Christians in Heaven and now have a new term to, hopefully, help bridge the gap with "separated brethren". Culture shouldn't need to fighting between brothers and sisters.

[@KlaustheViking]

What was the turning point that converted you from protestant to Catholic?

[@DavidLarson100]

@@KlaustheViking I did the same, and for me it was the issue of authority. I rejected Christianity as a kid, and when I came back as a young adult, I heard 1,000 different explanations and theologies that all had PhDs with deep knowledge backing them. So the "perspicuity of Scripture" idea, that the average person can pick up a Bible and it will be obvious what it all means, didn't make sense. Same for "personal experience." People from all the sects had their own stories of their heart being touched and lives changed. So I looked to where all those branches pulled away from and thought about who actually had the authority to interpret scripture and to create doctrine. It was a short road to Catholicism from there. Also, Calvinism really turned me away from much of the Protestant sects. Even the Anglican 39 articles are deeply contaminated with it. But to me, that seemed not like "Good News," but maybe the worst possible news I could imagine. God plans out all our evil thoughts and deeds and then has us tortured forever for carrying them out (even though we couldn't do otherwise)???? And I'm supposed to be happy because he picked a couple people at random for eternal bliss? Why would I even bring a child into a paradigm like that? I became Christian because I found hope in being drawn towards the good and away from a very rowdy past. That Calvinist view almost snuffed out that hope soon after it had been lit.

[@Lorrainecats]

@@DavidLarson100 Yes, I also have a huge problem with Calvinism. I just don't believe God would do that. It makes no sense at all.

[@elijahe.3704]

I was just asking this question the other day, thank you for making this happen Matt. Your family and ministry are in my prayers.

[@Lorrainecats]

Matt, this video was informative, helpful, and much appreciated. Your guest is brilliant, yet down to earth.

[@toddbonin6926]

BEST DAY EVER!!! Two of my favorite podcasters together. I was so excited I could hardly stand the wait until lunch do I could listen closely. Please hangout together more often!!!

[@thecrew777]

I always love to hear Dr. Stephen Nichols. Thank you for this interview, Matt.

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

Me too. I thought he was fantastic!

[@codyclay88]

Matt, thank you so much for having these conversations. Keep up the great work, brother!

[@CrossTimbersSon]

I’m thankful for Matt’s willingness to allow us to tag along virtually and visit different churches. It’s been an eye opening experience to see and hear from different parts of the global body of Christ. It’s sad to read Jesus’s prayer in John 17 in some ways goes unanswered. “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one”. Today, it seems like the average church, on every corner, in every town, thinks they are “right” and the church down the street on the other corner is wrong. It seems like fracturing is in our DNA We are definitely not “One” as Jesus had prayed. It’s no wonder that our culture mirrors the church and is divided into opposing camps.

[@Lorrainecats]

Well said

[@teammine]

19:36 where you talk about just going to a different church if things get "weird"...Orthodox see that as highly problematic. They would say this proves the concept of "every man his own pope" and that is why there are so many different iterations of Protestantism, whereas there is still just one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

[@joshuatrott193]

Another thing I have heard was, that the East leaned more heavily into Christ being the healer. West leaned more on Christ being the payment for our transgressions

[@CharlesSeraphDrums]

And yet there’s a plethora of Eastern theologians that discuss Penal Substitutionary Atonement even in the time period from the 7th to the 11th centuries.

[@odetafecani1614]

@@CharlesSeraphDrums I don’t think so. I’m Orthodox and I never heard “penal substitution” until I came to the US (in relation to the Catholics’ past of course).

[@greenacresorganics7922]

@@CharlesSeraphDrums Name 1

[@CharlesSeraphDrums]

@@greenacresorganics7922 Saint Symeon the New Theologian, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint John of Damascus, it’s in the Confession of Dositheos

[@thomasknuerr7342]

Thanks for another good chat.

[@tysongames2750]

Matt, ever since I started watching your videos my wife and I have slowly started gravitating towards Orthodoxy, and we're happy to say we are now converting! We have converted to the Oriental Coptic Orthodox Church to be specific. They have such an unshakable and influential history in the church that it is undeniable. Plus, they have more martyrs than all other denominations combined!

[@UnOrthodox_Christian]

Wow, nice

[@UnOrthodox_Christian]

So awesome, if I wasn’t Catholic, the only other branch I would be is Orthodox. One of those has to be the original church

[@tysongames2750]

@@UnOrthodox_Christian Its Orthodox. If you do your homework you'll see . Study the Ecumenical Councils and read the Church fathers, they will tell you everything 😉. Good luck!

[@philmattox8500]

Eastern Orthodox here, Congratulations on your reception into the Oriental Coptic Orthodox Church!

[@ceasedesist9676]

Congrats in entering the Coptic Church! Greek Ortho here! Hope our Churches can dialogue more for unity lol, afaik we likely shared the same Christology the entire time.

[@teresawoods5099]

I learned so much! Excited for second part. 😊

[@greenockscatman]

The actual historical context of the Great Schism is also an endlessly fascinating rabbithole to fall into. Many larger than life personalities got involved, and it's just amazing to read about if you have the time.

[@dylanoshell93]

Loved this! Aside from any of content, loved the format and loved Dr. Nichols! That guy is full of joy.

[@mattschneider78]

Dr. Nichols with the icons of St. Martin Luther and St. Katerina von Bora. 👌

[@emilysteele730]

This was extremely helpful! I’ve been exploring EO and not even sure what questions to ask or why I would/would not want to seriously consider making a move away from my “tradition”. You were amazing at asking the right questions.

[@danfsteeple]

You should talk to a priest

[@Kathleensailorgirl]

Thank you Matt excellent interview thanks again I am so happy that I have found your channel 🙏🙏😊

[@ScottSteubing]

This was fascinating. I love learning Church history. I already knew the basics of the Schism, and I learned a lot from this video.

[@LynnDickison]

Great video. I really enjoy learning about church history.

[@jugglingthree7957]

Studying Doctrine from an historical perspective at the moment. So this video is very helpful. Thanks so much for doing this.

[@peteristevski3681]

Awesome conversation! Matt, if you get the chance, you should have a conversation with Eric Ybarra and Father John Strickland.

[@Fourwedge]

Great discussion, you do a great job with people. God bless you.

[@pyenygren2299]

What a good talk you two had.

[@davestewart8823]

The underlying differences were well communicated. Thanks Matt

[@ahandad]

Matt, the one thing I am struck by as I watch more and more of your videos, is that God is using His church (meaning the overall body of believers) to do the work of his Kingdom, regardless of what branch of that church we personally align with. We as humans will always find an area of contention, but God continues to move in all the different "churches" to accomplish His will.

[@johnturner170]

Although not a Reformed Christian, I do admire Stephen Nichols. He's a very good Bible historian and he makes things so easy to understand.

[@moveabledo]

Your sound quality, Matt, is amazing! (And the content is inspired, too, but I'm a sound tech so I thought I'd give you my professional assessment, haha)

[@Dymphnos3127]

Thanks for a solid overview of the topic Matt! It sounds like there is further discussion on the way. I was a bit confused by a few of Dr. Nichols comments, but perhaps I misunderstood: 1.) The approach of Eastern and Western traditions to new cultures. It’s true the Western church spread further and to many more cultures than Eastern churches. However, it is worth noting the consistent tendency of the Eastern churches to adopt a more local form of language for the services. The comparison of how Russian missionaries approached the native people of Alaska vs. How similar contact was accomplished by Catholic and Protestant missionaries on the North American continent is an interesting topic as well (both approaches had their fair share of things to repent of obviously). The way in which the Aleut people still hold dear their inherited Orthodox faith, and similarly how the Mi’kmaq in some areas hold a tenuous but still somewhat respectful view of Catholicism perhaps speaks to the ability of these older forms of faith to connect with indigenous spirituality as opposed to Protestant forms. This is not always the case, though. 2.) The Marian dogmas. Some would definitely agree that the Catholic Marian Dogmas have developed (or perhaps more fairly been clarified or crystallized) as time has gone on. The view of the Virgin Mary as Queen Mother of Christ the Lord is fairly old though. Pagan commentators of the Christian movement were aware of the Virgin Mary as part of the central messaging of this new religious development, and these pagans were probably only going off of the public presentation of the Gospel message and not the more private services of the churches. Similar to the tradition presented in the books of Kings, monarchs of the line of David are named and associated with their mother being the official Queen. Similarly a Christian movement started by Jewish people claiming Jesus as the messiah of the line of David would have proclaimed the Gospel in a fashion consistent with this monarchical titles. Jesus is Lord, Caesar is not. His Queen mother is the Virgin Mary, and this King is returning to be crowned ruler of the universe (which he already is, but it will be revealed more fully with the second coming), so how shall we respond to this Ruler to become his subjects? (The ideal response being become citizens of kingdom now, repent, believe, be baptized etc.) 3.) The idea that all theologians are trained at Athos. Once again, perhaps I misunderstood, or am reading too much into this comment. In the USA there is St Vladimir’s and Holy Cross Seminary, and in Canada there is Orthodox Theological training done through St George’s college at UofT. Regardless, thanks for summarizing the major points and presenting it in an engaging manner!

[@danfsteeple]

There was quite a few misrepresentations

[@lemokemo5752]

I love this!

[@theophanial9432]

Excellent! Very well explained.

[@landfillbear]

Fascinating interview. Interestingly enough @13:03 in regards to Vatican II, many would argue that it DID change Catholicism significantly. Particularly the most important aspects of Catholicism, its way of conducting the Liturgy and also its way of performing the Sacraments. This led to the wishy-washy modern Catholicism that we see today. A diluted form of what it once was 😢 Today, there is a modern day schism occurring within Catholicism between the ancient Traditional Catholics and Modern Catholics.

[@elijeremiah1058]

We traditionalists have no intention of schism; we are being persecuted by our own Pope! It’s so weird! Most of us are content to just mind our own business in our own churches but Pope Francis has decided we’re enemy number one

[@justmike75]

Hey Matt, I am a Protestant here but I have greatly appreciated the depth of insight from Orthodox authors like K. Ware and especially from John Behr. If you want a good taste on the depth of Orthodox introspection give John Behr a go. I am currently working through Behr’s, “John the Theologian and his Paschal Gospel: A Prologue to Theology.” It is a fascinating and deep dive into the theology of the author of gospel and the theological tradition that comes from him. Thanks for videos like this, my Protestant rooted faith has only grown in depth and breadth from embracing those more ancient traditions; understanding and appreciating the beauty they communicated about the Triune God I worship. Thanks.

[@mrericsully]

Okay, I have to know what other podcast recommendations do you have hidden in your hip pocket? Thanks for another great video!

[@BackToOrthodoxy]

I genuinely wonder what Islam's influence would have been in the world if the great Schism in 1054 didn't happen. I ask this because the western and eastern church were divided as a result of the schism, during the crusades. How would it have influenced the results of the crusades if they were unified during the crusades instead of divided?

[@issith7340]

Islam existed for 400 years, before the schism.😁

[@ceasedesist9676]

Honestly I think that would not solve the problem. It was quite inevitable really the East-West schism happening, the political situation after the Early Muslim Conquests practically guaranteed it. Afaik papal power expansion has occured since the days of St Cyprian of Carthage and was one of the things he warned against. Since the Eastern Roman Emperor cannot control the pope well after they were booted from Italy, the pope's monopoly over european christianity essentially allowed him to schism off. Since militarily and politically speaking, the Eastern Roman Emperor cannot depose him as usual anymore. If it weren't for Islam in the first place, the drift in East-West theology may have been nipped in the bud or at least solved before it could spiral beyond control. Even more so we could reconcile with the Orientals because the Ecumenical Council after Chalcedon I believe was only stopped from uniting the Orientals back in because Islam happened. So all in all if Islam itself wasn't born, a great majority of the early schisms would likely never happen or if it did happen it would be solved far earlier up the line.

[@daishoo]

There would not even be a crusade, because the crusade was prompted by the turkish becoming islamites and shifting the power from the caliph in Bagdad go the Sultan, which began to renew the push by the sword until they took all north Africa and, finally took anatolia and the eastern lands of the Eastern Roman Empire. If the body of Christ had not been torn, the western barbarians would have been converted more fast, and there might be a very strong front against the turks. We might have never lost the Christian african kingdoms and much less the Holy Land.

[@mickyfrazer786]

The filioque was added to counter the Arian Heresy. I also don't think he represented the state of Marian Dogma correctly

[@macpduff2119]

As an Art major, I first learned about "Christ Pantocrator" - or - Christ as God judging the world. My Methodist upbringing stressed the Christ of the Beatitudes ( a gentle teacher who was very good but not actually fully God). The internet is enabling Christians to talk to each other again.Yes, I also visited a Greek Orthodox Church in North Carolina and presumed that I could partake of Communion because I was a Christian Catholic, and the Priest hesitated and asked me twice if I was able/qualified to partake. I said 'yes' because I am a devout Christian, but now I realize that I was not welcome at the table. Sadly, I never returned because I felt a cultural difference that I couldn't overcome. Very sad. Thank you for the insights.

[@PastorwithoutaPulpit]

Thank you for this interesting and inspirational interview that was well conducted and just jam packed with information that helped me at least to understand the schism, why it exists and just what it means to the Catholics. As someone who was raised as a Lutheran I'm so thankful I've never had to deal with a mortal when it comes to asking for forgiveness of my sins. I can understand how some may like that in that it gives them comfort if they do what they are directed to do to atone for their sins and how it closes the issue for them in a way. I however will deal with uncertainty if it means I can go straight to Him with those types of issues no middle man required and by knowing His Word there really is no uncertainty. I really am sorry if what I've said ruffles some feathers. Please know I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ yet I also mourn for some of them. These are just my musings as a now non-denominational follower of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Church is the Bride of Christ and I continue to look up in Hope... God Bless.

[@nicoleyoshihara4011]

Really interesting to learn about

[@Aletreya]

This is an excellent insight into some fundamentals around the Great Schism. I offer three clarifications by example: 1) Apophatic Theology: Saying what God is by what He's not. Think of the difference between: "God is fully knowable" "God cannot be known at all" "God is known, but never fully" Where the first two falsely box God in, the apophatic third gives us context without limiting Him. 2) Why the Crusades "sealed the Great Schism". In returning to the idea of the Great Schism as a breakup, imagine running into your ex after you've had some time apart. Perhaps there is a way to rekindle old relations. Perhaps not. But imagine how much more difficult the willingness would be (let alone the ability) if the way you encountered your ex was by her leaving someone's bedroom. This "calcifying" would be even more severe if the bedroom belongs to someone you know; further still by someone you trust (or trusted). 3) Why the Filoque Clause is so important. This clarification isn't to assess which interpretation is "right", Matt did a great job navigating the nuance of that. "Filoque" is Latin for "son", by the way, if that helps identify the terminology. The significance is that by adding that the Holy Spirit came from the Father "and the son", it introduces an implied subordination. As an example, think of the difference between: "Matt sent me to go get groceries" "I sent Matt to deliver a package" In both of these, it isn't a matter of authority as much as commission. Matt is not over me nor I over him, but one simply sends the other. However, consider: "Matt and Dr. Nichols sent me to go get the groceries" This now implies that the two of them exist in superiority in some way, as if I am an employee or a servant. The Catholic Church did not perceive this implicit subordination, or did not see a problem with it if so perceived, in the same way that a master is not greater than his servant (John 13:16). The Orthodox Church however felt this was unnecessarily diminishing, if not even belittling, of the Holy Spirit, so would not suffer the addition.

[@ceasedesist9676]

If I may correct, correct me if I'm wrong as well, but number 3 could perhaps be expanded upon by differing Triadology as well? Since how Orthodox explain Trinity and how Western Christians do it seems to be very different. So much so that at least in my country, Orthodox Trinity can be understood very easily by Muslims without accusations of Polytheism you'd typically find.

[@Aletreya]

@@ceasedesist9676 An excellent consideration! The Eastern understanding certainly has easier means of acceptance around subjects like the Trinity. Both East and West must be careful to neither insist upon their own way, for this behavior cannot be love, nor labor toward the creation of a third way in an effort to reconcile, for there will then just be an Eastern and Western understanding of that third way. I do accept and recommend your addition (I do not see it as a correction) regarding the Filoque Clause in particular, because a Triadologic approach to the clause distracts from the issue of the Holy Spirit's authority, instead seeking to assess what grouping factor(s) put the three persons of the Trinity together.

[@valeried7210]

I was looking up the history leading up to the Nicene Creed. It was fascinating how just a bit of research showed there were already differences between east and west in how theologians approached their criticism of modalism.

[@johnboyx63]

Great conversation, Matt! (LCMS here). This is such an important topic even today. The debate about the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome was before 1054. There is a strong belief among the Orthodox that Rome was just trying to dominate, lord over them. The Filioque was the final straw. Then the Crusader attack on Constantinople was a huge wedge against reunification. And then stealing the relics of St. Nicholas of Myra!! OMG DRAMA!!! Here is an interesting book about the 2nd generation of Lutheran theologians reaching out to Constantinople to add legitimacy to their struggle against Rome. Augsburg and Constantinople: The Correspondence between the Tubingen Theologians and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople on the Augsburg Confession by Rev. George Mastrantonis.

[@CrossTimbersSon]

It would be interesting if Matt could interview Fr. Evan Armatas of Saint Spyridon Greek Orthodox Church in Loveland Colorado. He has a live call in program, podcast and has also written a book called Reclaiming the Great Commission: A Roadmap to Parish Health. After watching Matt’s previous videos about the Orthodox Church, I was open to listen to Fr. Armatas’s podcast.

[@dustinhanlin]

"5 Minutes in Church History"? Is he trying to undercut my boy? Haha. Great content as always brother. Thanks for doing what you do.

[@jessekessler189]

Stephen Nichols is a boss. S tier communicator.

[@adamsprague807]

Hey I love your videos and your mission. Also love the Wyoming 🤠 hat! I live in Gillette, WY. Just found your channel and cant stop watching

[@danharris6358]

I really appreciated this video. Dr. Nichols is great. I think you should rope all guests into a Bible press conference video #destroythealgorithm

[@danielcarroll8889]

Fascinating

[@katiehav1209]

You asked about how the other Patriarchs saw Rome Bishops authority, they have writings speaking of submitting to the Roman bishop. And even the Orthodox today call him the first among equals

[@nancyd001]

Matt, I appreciate all your efforts to expose people to various unfamiliar religious traditions, and you are conscientious about being fair. Your guest today has a very general understanding of Orthodoxy (I've been Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox), but unfortunately has fallen into a few stereotypes, for example describing Orthodoxy as if it's primarily mystery, mystery and more mystery. Plus he said some plainly counterfactual things, like that the Catholics theoretically united with the Orthodox during V2. What???? And focusing on the Ecumenical Patriarch as if he plays the same role in the Orthodox world that the Pope does in the Catholic world. But I don't want to just be critical. It was nice that you had a show about the Great Schism for your viewers. Maybe some time you could have a similar discussion with some Catholic and/or Orthodox church historians whohave a better feel for those traditions and how history developed around them. Thank you for your efforts. I generally really enjoy your shows!

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

22:45 YES!! This is What I believe. Different people need Different things(?), to draw Closer To God.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

I had a pastor years ago who said "That which unites us (Jesus) is so much greater than that which divides us"

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

@@stephanterblanche4597 1. 40 000 different Protestant denomination is NOT a good look. Particularly when so many splits are over (IMO) secondary/tertiary issues. 2. That said on The Big Things (Who Is Jesus? What did He Do, The Trinity) There we find Unity.

[@dimesonhiseyes9134]

Great video very well done I was engaged the entire time. Although it kind of seems like you left some of it off at the end was there anything else that you're going to release later?

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

Yes. Next up.

[@johnpaulhumphrey2981]

In terms of the cultural compatibility of orthodoxy, its more nuanced then could be expressed in something of this scope. Its worth checking out the history of orthodoxy in Alaska. Of course as you know from personal experience there are definitely ethnic enclaves too.

[@cinnamondan4984]

Gospel of John says that the apostles were given the power to remit the sins of people. It seems this authority would be passed down through apostolic authority.

[@dougrickenback8535]

Matt, Thanks for all your efforts to enlighten the internet world about theological issues and your honest attempts to bridge the gaps. As a convert to Orthodoxy, I'm sorry you had the experience that you did. Not that it excuses that cold reception, but you should realize the intense persecution the Orthodox have historically suffered. How many of those "welcoming" protestant churches you have visited, had their pastors executed, sent to the gulag or had their churches burnt/bombed by terrorists? Many Orthodox particularly those coming from eastern Europe have very real, historical reasons to be suspicious of the stranger in their midst. It will take many years for them to get over their tragic history and be as evangelistic as western Christians.

[@ronreeder2967]

You asked a Protestant to tell the truth about the split between Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox Katholik? If a Protestant could tell the truth about history, they would cease to be Protestant. They would join the Eastern Orthodox Katholik Church; or would join the Roman Catholic Church, but secretly maintain a Conciliar mindset in opposition to the Papacy.

[@tendaimsimang8630]

Sin scatters, Love gathers. When did our love die for the different, and when did sin fly amongst the similar. Love is expressed not possessed Amongst all people, beyond our people. The soul you cannot love will be your stumbling block. Love and you will live. Look and you will see the light Listen and will learn the lessons of the Lord who’s love is built on truth

[@bobwood5146]

REALLY? You might want to read Luke 12:53. You want to be careful and biblical when comparing SIN AND LOVE and the consequential differences between the two.

[@tendaimsimang8630]

@@bobwood5146 I recognise your observation, please allow me clarify my comment Love gathers and scatters, sin scatters and gathers. It seems that where you aim your love determines the integrity of what is gathered Whether it be a thing of God, or of man. Those who do not love the truth will scatter from those who express love upon the foundation of truth. This is the sword of truth that severs familial bonds. Luke 12:53 Those who love and lift their own name above Gods, gather in vain. Building towers of babels through out the ages, destined for confusion and collapse. The sin of self sovereignty scattered in every each way at the revelation of Gods truth. Psalm 127:1 Those who dwell in the darkness of self deceit will flee from the light of truth. Those who love the light of truth, will gather like planets do to a sun. As we do to the Son. Love and peace.

[@dinobozonelos5571]

To Dr. Nichols's comment on the often insular nature of Orthodox congregations in the U.S., pleas keep in mind that many of these immigrants came over after having faced hostility or outright persecution. Many are happy just to be able to worship peacefully. They definitely lack an evangelist perspective. This does not excuse a lack of friendliness, but the context might help explain their behavior. Personally, as a cradle Orthodox, I'm happy to say that the recent surge into Orthodoxy, especially by younger people seeking tradition, is changing our parishes for the better.

[@Tai182]

Talk to Jonathan Pageau he's an Eastern Orthodox icon carver would be interesting.

[@georgeluke6382]

Matt, I've been teaching history for a Christian co-op this year, and studying the various regional religious associations in the 13 colonies, following Albion's Seed. I wonder if we might find various Protestant regional cultural enclaves similar to what you experienced with the EO, wherever a minority ethnic group contributes the majority to a Protestant church. I'm thinking of majority- black, Indian, or Chinese churches in America, but you could likely experience this as a minority in a majority white church, or perhaps in a church that's historically Appalachian foothills, or Texan, or in a community defined by a particular vocation for the men, for instance. Have you see this? It feels like more a sociological in-group, out-group phenomenon that might be more accentuated in EO, with time to create an enclave? I think you and Dr. Nichols brought up similar points from a different angle around 18:01-18:18.

[@finnishyank7413]

As an Orthodox Christian I apologize that you were treated that way in the churches that shunned you. That isn't Orthodoxy but sadly nationalism.

[@Lakalyren]

Do/did the different sides have the same view of the earlier “schisms”, like the Nestorian church (church of the east) and the Coptic church?

[@brianfarley926]

Try checking in with The Catholic Brothers. They did videos on the first 500 years of church history. I think you would find the conversation to be edifying as well

[@patrickdean4853]

This is a subject that would benefit from about an hour or two of more discussion. There had been some disagreement between east and west, with respect to the authority of the papacy prior to the schism. As this interview points out, the “filoque” question was simply the spark, it set off, what seem to be, a confrontation between east and west. As with many things, this came down to the papacy sending a representative to the east to resolve the issue. Pope Leo IX died before his representative, Humbert, arrived (thus negating his commission) and, due to distance, no word could reach the east in time to inform the Roman Catholic representative. On the orthodox side, the patriarch (and full time politician and intriguer) was Michael Cerularius. Both were hot heads. They ended up excommunicating each other and the rest is history. This was not a theological dispute, it was power politics.

[@seekfind9531]

Hi Matt!

[@SteveTTTT]

Thanks for your intelligent, fact-based insight

[@mannyruiz1954]

Excellent, educational video. On one hand I've always wondered if Christianity could ever truly be Universal, meaning one Church, no denominations, schisms, etc. But the reality is that the best we can do is find common ground. There are too many things about humanity that separate us as believers, like language, race, culture, etc. God bless your ministry sir.

[@user-kg4fc5vz5p]

I would be more than happy if we could all celebrate Easter together officially - i.e. not just going to another church as a private individual - in those years when the dates fall together. Maybe that's what we should aim for. I had a somewhat different experience in the Romanian Orthodox church in Dublin at Easter about 10 years ago. It was the Easter vigil (overnight from 11pm to about 5am) and yes, I was at the back of the church and I felt a little odd, but really that was mostly because the church was really full. I was there on the Thursday as well and it wasn't as strange because I could sit or kneel, while on the Saturday/Sunday I had to stand most of the time. I will agree that the Orthodox generally keep more to themselves, even when we do ecumenical things, but they were there when we inaugurated our new pastors last year (and the priests are always recognisable, because they wear hats).

[@danfsteeple]

We don’t really sit for liturgies. Only Americans do that usually in Greek Churches. I’ve been to plenty of churches without pews

[@user-kg4fc5vz5p]

@@danfsteeple I think in my case it was because the Romanians here rent the Church from someone else and weren't able or allowed to take the pews out. I was in Russia a few years ago for Easter and we had to stand in every service there, though some people brought in foldable chairs. One does get used to it. But having two services nearly back to back, I think it was in Good Friday, with no time to sit down in between, it got a bit hard. Easter Sunday was fantastic, though, with a picnic breakfast in the church after the overnight service. (This was a Pilgrimage with Taize, not something I organised for myself. )

[@danfsteeple]

@@user-kg4fc5vz5p it is something that is acquired, standing for long periods of time. The Greeks in America also kneel during the consecration of the Eucharist, which really isn’t supposed to happen since Christ rose on Sunday, therefore we don’t kneel. But someone does it once and the others follow. Also they cross themselves when being sensed with incense and that makes them stick out like sore thumbs

[@patrickmcclintock3791]

This was an interesting presentation, and I appreciate that the best that any KZbin video could possibly do with the complexity of this topic is give an overview that will inevitably overlook certain points or aspects of it. There are a couple things that stand out that I would like to mention. One is regarding the Filioque issue, the Filioque issue is a compound problem and in discussions it’s important for the distinction to be made. The two primary issues are: The Theology of it, and the second is the way in which it was added. As an Orthodox Christian, I of course disagree with both the Theology of it, and the addition of it. But let’s say that hypothetically the theology could be demonstrated to be correct. That still leaves the other issue. It would be like if the President of the United States inserted a phrase into the Declaration of Independence. Even if it in itself was something good or agreeable, no President has the right or authority to do that. The Declaration was signed by 56 delegates. It’s not a perfect metaphor, but you get the idea. About Orthodox isolationism and ethnocentrism. These are things that are not good, that we want to change, and they are changing. They are primarily being changed by the influx of western converts (such as myself 20 years ago). While the isolation and so forth, is not a positive thing, it is something that should be understood in a historical context. As you said in another video, one of your main goals is to promote understanding, and that understanding does not necessitate agreement. It’s easy for many Americans to make assumptions about why some communities would be this way in 2023, “Why aren’t they outgoing” etc. I’ll try to keep this short, and encourage further research. So in the old world, the main sphere’s of Orthodoxy are the Greek Mediterranean, the Arab Middle East, and Slavic Eastern Europe. From 1453 until the end of WW1, the Greek sphere was under the Islamic Ottoman Empire. The Arabs were under it earlier, and from the end of WW1 until 1991 the Slavic sphere was under Communist Dictatorship. In the Middle East, Arab Orthodox continue to be suppressed and persecuted to this day. In some cases as with the Greeks, the suppression was not only of their faith, but also their cultural identity. An interesting evidence of this is an uproar in Turkey with the Genealogy DNA test companies. “Turks” are getting results back from companies like 23&me that say that they are they are 90% or more the same as the people living in Greece. This is because that’s exactly what their ancestors were.. the survivors of the conquest who had their identity wiped away so thoroughly that they think that they are “Turks” (actual Turks were a Northeast Asian people similar to Mongolians/Tartars). So during the long occupation, the Greeks could have churches if they paid the tax, and being Muslim, the Ottoman authorities were not interested in visiting them. This made the Greeks churches the perfect safe haven to use to preserve their language & cultural identity and transmit it to their children. The Ottomans also used the “Millet system” of administration. The Ottomans weren’t interested in handling the minor and day to day affairs of the many different peoples that they conquered, so they grouped them into administrative “millets” based on their ethnicity/culture & religion and left it to the religious leaders of said group to handle those things. Another thing about Orthodox communities throughout these times under either Islam or Communism is that if strangers showed up to their church, something very bad was about to happen. For hundreds of years, the only “new members” that they received were the children that they had. Americans might say “Yeah but they’re here now, they have religious freedom, why don’t they just “Get over it” That’s not how things work with people.. Cultural Collective Memory is very powerful thing. In my own opinion, I think that their thinking (possibly subconsciously) is “We’re in a land now where people will leave us alone and allow us to exist.. let’s not have a high visibility and give anyone a chance to ruin this”. Again, this not how things should be, but a brief explanation of how they became, and as I also said, it really is changing. Not only are American converts coming in, but with maybe the exception of some of the Arab communities who still have people fleeing persecution, in many of the churches the immigrant generation is getting old and passing away and the younger generations are more Americanized. I join with the others in saying that I sincerely apologize that you and your family had that experience at that parish. That kind of behavior was absolutely unacceptable.

[@jdruiz_95]

Hey Matt, very important question to me. Though your research and doing your discovering, where do you stand on your own salvation? Do you feel assured in your salvation or do you feel as though you still have to find salvation? Thank you.

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

I'm confident of Christ's saving work in my life by grace through faith in Christ alone. I'm probably in the best place I've ever been regarding that question.

[@jdruiz_95]

@@MattWhitmanTMBH awesome 👍

[@Lorrainecats]

@@MattWhitmanTMBH That's ✝️ good to hear, Matt. It can get pretty confusing when you're exposed to so many interpretations. I just keep praying and have an ongoing relationship with God.

[@Samuel33777]

Matt's episode at the Bishop's Orthodox Church says it perfectly and explains the schism perfectly. Culture difference between Greeks and Russians doesn't bother us. I'm 100% sure it would Sins lead. We have a leader and that is God not the pope. Orthodox are original we have not changed or erased anything. And it not about you cause otherwise you are worshipping the feeling you have about God and not worshipping god.

[@matthewmeyer3483]

Have your read the orthodox survival guide by father seraphim rose? A great orthodox perspective of world history.

[@ntonisa6636]

With respect to your guest but the "Great Schism" had nothing whatsoever to do with icons(not directly at least). Icon veneration was never listed among "the errors of the Greeks" or those of the Latins, to my knowledge. There was some friction between the eastern Church and the Popes during the iconoclastic controversies in Byzantium but this wasn't because the Greeks were too attached to icons but rather the opposite. It was the Pope who staunchly supported the iconophile faction, while large swaths of the eastern church including many bishops and patriarchs had sided with the iconoclast emperors. Historically the western church had been much more consistently pro-icon than the East. Protestant neo-iconoclasm wasn't yet a thing when the Schism errupted, 99% of the opposition to icons had up to that point in history come from the east.

[@ceasedesist9676]

I mean tbf he is a reformed, he likely subscribes to the idea that "Pure" Christianity is largely if not completely iconoclastic.

[@ntonisa6636]

@@ceasedesist9676 well ironically even the word "iconoclast" is sort of a protestant invention popularized in the 16th century by reformers who consciously revived some 8th century byzantine arguments to lend legitimacy to their own movement, but broadly speaking "iconoclasm" had never been a widespread thing in the west up until then.

[@MelaniesManicures]

As a Catholic covert from Protestantism, I’m Praying for unity between all our churches. Jesus wants us to be one. ❤

[@user-vj9qz3br6l]

Man, that story about visiting an Orthodox church and not being welcomed is heart wrenching. Hopefully, it was just miscommunication on the part of the Orthodox, but if it wasn’t them shame on them for not being very Christ like.

[@AELmom-fs4jq]

I didn’t know you were in Rapid City, Matt! Greetings from Sturgis! I’m curious if you visited the Orthodox Church in Rapid and if they were the welcoming kind or the non-welcoming kind.

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

Hello Sturgis! I have visited that church, and it was not a positive experience.

[@AELmom-fs4jq]

@@MattWhitmanTMBH Wow, that’s a shame. Thanks for the response!

[@LHMOM.8610]

There are key details that are overlooked in this presentation. One cannot understand Orthodoxy without understanding the role of Apostolic succession, the Church Fathers, and Holy Tradition, all of which preceded the Bible by 350 years. The Orthodox Church sealed the Bible, not the other way around. Christ left us the Holy Spirit and the Holy Apostles, not the Bible. For Matt, I am shocked that you were treated that way in an EOC. The only reason that I can think of is if your family stayed after the dismissal of the catechumens before the blessing of the gifts. The Divine Liturgy calls for that and perhaps the Church you visited observed it, but it is quite rare.

[@dagonsmaster]

Nice Martin Luther painting behind him

[@louvega8414]

Great content, Matt! I am fascinated by your impression of the (lack of) philoxenia from the Eastern Orthodox churches you've visited in the States. It's not been my impression travelling through Greece. I wonder if it has something to do with, in the States, those communities are the diaspora; a small minority so to speak. In Greece, Greek Orthodoxy IS the mainstream. It's not a justification, just trying to understand the phenomenon.

[@roseg1333]

This guy wasn’t to bad at all I would. love for you to have Trent from council of Trent on he is one smart cookie 😂🥰🙏🏼✝️💕

[@TylerNGOakley]

You should have an Orthodox priest on to talk about this subject, there are quite a few ideas and being thrown around when talking about Orthodox theology here that an Orthodox wouldn't agree with. Also some very weird mistakes like 23:50 "So this is where they are all trained, Orthodox theologians." when talking about Mount Athos. Many Saints and theologians have come out of Athos but that is not where most are trained. If you are using theologian in an Orthodox way meaning someone who has achieved a very high level of prayer, sure. But if we are talking about theologian as we use it normally in the west absolutely not. I don't know of a single parish priest or academic theologian who was trained there.

[@loggingrlyman]

A question: does the position of the Orthodox church concerning the trinity reflect the threat from the Islam and their reaction to Muslims accusing Christians of believing in three gods? Did this affect the attitude towards the Western tradition in that it appeared to be similar to Muslims?

[@OneCatholicSpeaks]

As a Roman Catholic, I think there was one last dynamic that was suggested but never explored.. Goi g back to the issue of Latin becoming the language of Rome and Greek being the language of Orthodoxy. Greek is also the language of the New Testament. So, that means that the East can more appreciate the nuances of the Scriptures without footnote explanations Whereas Roman Catholicism using Latin, that requires translation and thus discussion on the meanings.

[@Mavvyd96]

Wow Matt, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience at an Orthodox church with your family. My current church was very welcoming of me and it was a Russian church with tons of Russians.

[@Steve-wg3cr]

Matt, didn't know you lived in Rapid City. I lived there back in the 1980s. I visited the Evangelical Free Church a few times when I was there. Not sure if that's the same church you are part of today.

[@stebrepar]

On whether "infinite" is apophatic, I'd suggest yes, as it's a negation: in-finite, not finite.

[@Dritree]

Watch us in the UK and see another one...

[@PETE316]

Such a good video. Whitman wins the internet again.

[@jajohnson7809]

Just know that any congregation worthy of the title "Orthodox" would never have turned you away. My church in Sioux Falls definitely wouldn't!