What Was the X Factor That Inspired the Rise of Modern Science? Stephen Meyer Responds

[@RelentlessHomesteading]

Not only science - BUT ALL the freedoms we've enjoyed (and are losing now) came out of the Protestant reformation. The dark ages fell away. Really appreciate Stephen Meyers work and have read a couple of his books, including God Hypothesis.

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

But mythical gods don't exist. So going back to square one, when will they provide this crucial evidence?

[@RelentlessHomesteading]

@@imafeltersnatch7634 Agreed - 'mythical gods' by definition do not exist. You ask, probably rhetorically, when will they provide this crucial evidence? God has provided HUGE amounts of evidence. But God is a God of free will (in line with His purpose for this creation). Thus, God NEVER forces anyone to believe -- because LOVE cannot be forced. So God shows Himself ONLY to the extent to which our faith has grown. I grew up in an atheist household and was rather staunch along those lines. But the facts pointed elsewhere... The "Big Bang" is "First Effect" and it requires a "First Cause". Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit (latin) which means "Out of Nothing -- Nothing Comes" The universe, including all matter, energy, space and time and the laws which govern their interactions: ALL come into existence in a moment of time in the distant past. This is the "FIRST EFFECT" -- for which there must be a "FIRST CAUSE". Cause and Effect is the most primary tenet of true SCIENCE. If you dismiss this "First Cause and Effect" -- then you are only paying lip service to science, BECAUSE you are looking for excuse to do only what YOU want to do. Logic clearly dictates that this CAUSE or CAUSER, MUST be external to our dimensions because this ‘First Cause’ created those dimensions - and thus can create dimensions AT WILL. Ipso Facto this ‘First Cause’ has a large, or perhaps even infinite number of dimensions - or its equivalent. Matter and energy - this ‘First Cause’ brought all known matter and energy into existence. Obviously, this First Cause must have power far beyond our imagination. Laws of physics - These dimensions, matter, and energy were brought about to operate within defined laws which remain in effect to our present time. We cannot even fathom somehow being able to create physical dimensions and matter and energy and laws of their operation (e.g., Law of gravity) - but it appears this ‘First Cause’ has that power. This requires an intellect so far beyond us, as we are above the amoeba. [[ Note - His moral laws are just as resolute as these laws of physics - but in His mercy He does not smite us immediately as if we attempted to break the law of gravity from jumping 20 stories up. He gives us a probationary time (our life, or until probation closes on the last generation) that we might repent. ]] ==By definition this ‘First Cause’ is a transcendent event - as it transcends both space and time. The cause, or more accurately Causer, of this event had to exist outside of our dimensions of space and time - which makes them transcendent - operating outside of our laws of physics and physical reality, in order to create those dimensions, as well as energy and matter. Such is clearly beyond the ‘natural’, because ‘natural’ indicates arising from natural causes, which of course requires pre-existent matter, energy, space and time. Whereby it should hit us right between the eyes that this First Cause IS SUPERNATURAL. And if the universe manifests elements of design and tuning, of which abundant evidence exists, …and not the result of a random cause, then is it not implied that we consider this to be a Causer having an intellect? Yet without any scientific evidence, many people today, choose to have faith that science will some day deliver a random cause (replacement for this FIRST CAUSER) that makes no demands on us. Because everyone intuitively recognizes that a certain level of responsibility or responsiveness would be owed to a Causer ‘God’, since we are the products of Their Creation. Purpose - Have you ever spent a huge amount of money and effort on a cause without having a purpose? As humans that purpose may not have panned out - but we at least we went into the endeavor with a goal or purpose in mind. The great expenditure here in the FIRST EVENT speaks volumes of a Great Purpose by a Great Intellect. This idea that the universe was ‘made for mankind’ is known as the “Anthropic principle”. Anthropos = Man. ======== first EFFECT -- tells us a great deal about the "First Cause" - the Causer, The Creator --- GOD OMNIPOTENT -- having unlimited Power - able to do anything is clearly applicable here. OMNIPRESENT -- To Exist everywhere. This ‘First Cause’ created our dimensions and must have a form of its own dimensions - perhaps infinite - or span dimensions in a way beyond or comprehension. And the ‘First Cause’ appears to manifestly operate within our universe. It follows from physical laws that this Extra-dimensionality of space and time allows this ‘First Cause’ to be everywhere - EVEN at the same time, and at EVERY time. New time lines allow presence across different times, while new spatial lines allows presence across space. This is well recognized in physics. So this is OMNIPRESENCE. OMNISCIENT -- to know all things. Organizing and establishing laws of physics, as well as creating dimension, and mass and energy, which are complex beyond or imagination - can certainly be considered to require OMNISCIENCE. In addition, due to the omnipresence, this OMNISCIENCE clearly extends right into our own brains and thoughts. So this ‘First Cause’ would know even the very thoughts of EVERY individual. GOD of LOVE -- and God in Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14) created all this for us. He created us with free will - we can choose NOT to accept His Truths and His Love. True LOVE cannot be forced. He even veiled it somewhat -- so that those that don't want to follow Him can choose to believe various false interpretations, and NOT be forced to worship the God of Creation - this FIRST CAUSE. YET -- He gives sufficient evidence - so that we are without excuse, if we fail to seek Him out. If we seek out Truth and strive to FOLLOW it -- we seek out God. Everyone with honest love of truth can come to Him and have the opportunity to be with Him through all eternity. What an amazing God we have. Summary -- So what the bible speaks about this FIRST CAUSE "God" is exactly what one would expect from the nature of the FIRST EVENT. And like "Moses Exodus" describes below about probabilities -- God has shown INCREDIBLE proofs, so ANY sincere seeker can be confident to step forward to learn more. Believe as you will -- but this present universe is only the "overture", proceeding the "symphony" of the new Creation to come. In the new creation there will be no death, disease, pain, or suffering - - and no SIN. And thus God can ONLY allow those in which are willing to follow all His laws. You can choose to follow SELF and stay separate from this Creator and Sustainer - and God will honor that choice and you will be destroyed and eternally separated from God. I choose to follow God and deny self, and God promises I will be with Him throughout the ages. I have come to know the God of the universe and He is merciful and just and fair; despite the overwhelming percentage of FALSE organizations and preachers which call themselves followers while going against His teachings. RH

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading What an incredible Gish Gallup failure

[@moses777exodus]

​Modern Quantum Physics has shown that reality is based on probability: ​ A statistical impossibility is defined as “a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 1/10^50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a Rational, Reasonable argument." The probability of finding one particular atom out of all of the atoms in the universe has been estimated to be 1/10^80. The probability of just one (1) functional 150 amino acid protein chain forming by chance is 1/10^164. It has been calculated that the probability of DNA forming by chance is 1/10^119,000. The probability of random chance protein-protein linkages in a cell is 1/10^79,000,000,000. Based on just these three cellular components, it would be far more Rational and Reasonable to conclude that the cell was not formed by un-directed random natural processes. Note: Abiogenesis Hypothesis posits that un-directed random natural processes, i.e. random chance formation, of molecules led to living organisms. Natural selection has no effect on individual atoms and molecules on the micro scale in a prebiotic environment. (*For reference, peptides/proteins can vary in size from 3 amino acid chains to 34,000 amino acid chains. Some scientists consider 300-400 amino acid protein chains to be the average size. There are 42,000,000 protein molecules in just one (1) simple cell, each protein requiring precise assembly. There are approx. 30,000,000,000,000 cells in the human body.) Of all the physical laws and constants, just the Cosmological Constant alone is tuned to a level of 1/10^120; not to mention the fine-tuning of the Mass-Energy distribution of early universe which is 1/10^10^123. Therefore, in the fine-tuning argument, it would be more Rational and Reasonable to conclude that the multi-verse is not the correct answer. On the other hand, it has been scientifically proven numerous times that Consciousness does indeed collapse the wave function to cause information waves of probability/potentiality to become particle/matter with 1/1 probability. A rational and reasonable person could therefore conclude that the answer is consciousness. A "Miracle" is considered to be an event with a probability of occurrence of 1/10^6. Abiogenesis, RNA World Hypothesis, and Multiverse would all far, far, far exceed any "Miracle". Yet, these extremely irrational and unreasonable hypotheses are what some of the world’s top scientists ‘must’ believe in because of a prior commitment to a strictly arbitrary, subjective, biased, narrow, limiting, materialistic ideology / worldview. Every idea, number, concept, thought, theory, mathematical equation, abstraction, qualia, etc. existing within and expressed by anyone is "Immaterial" or "Non-material". The very idea or concept of "Materialism" is an immaterial entity and by it's own definition does not exist. Modern science seems to be stuck in archaic, subjective, biased, incomplete ideologies that have inadequately attempted to define the "nature of reality" or the "reality of nature" for millennia. A Paradigm Shift in ‘Science’ is needed for humanity to advance. A major part of this Science Paradigm Shift would be the formal acknowledgment by the scientific community of the existence of "Immaterial" or "Non-material" entities as verified and confirmed by observation of the universe and discoveries in Quantum Physics.)

[@RelentlessHomesteading]

Beautifully stated !!! Some of the very facts I turn to. Especially liked you including the hyperexponent 10^10^123 regarding the fine tuning of the initial mass energy distribution. If people would only 'check their prejudices at the door' -- the facts DEMOLISH any thought of a Random Chance materialistic universe !!! They use the word "science" in a very twisted way -- a search for everything material which will negate a Creator; instead of searching for facts and letting that be their guide. What is your background? I grew up in an atheist household. It was the FACTS in the record of nature that put me toward finding out about the Creator God. My occupation was always about design - electronic HW & SW at various levels, then writing & prosecuting tech. patents for universities & fortune 500 companies. God miraculously brought me into this latter occupation, which has done much to bolster my ability with understanding His Word. I was so stunned on initially going through the bible - not only was the science correct (when you discard the lousy interpretations from the dark ages (e.g., Bishop Ussher)), but the prophecies are so astoundingly accurate, including those in Dan. 9 (490 year prophecy) foretelling exactly when Jesus would be annointed and later crucified, the 1260 year prophecy (538AD - 1798AD) foretold 7 times in scripture, and the 2300 year prophecy. And even what is happening in our times fits exactly the end time prophecies. Few realize the Sir Isaac Newton wrote more about prophecy that he did about physics - sort of a 'prophecies over principia' principle. God is amazing indeed !! RH

[@davidfenton3910]

A couple of thoughts for you Reality is the essence, the substance of all things. It is the primary source of facts from which we know and understand. Our awareness grows from its touch through our senses. Reality is the substantial source of awareness. False awareness of reality is a foundational problem. So doing what is necessary to establish and maintain true awareness is a foundational solution. Our primary way of knowing is through our senses You can examine this within yourself. Just take some time to think about 1, 2 and 3 below. 1. What facts, knowledge or understandings* can you think of that don’t rely on prior sense experience? 2. What facts, knowledge or understandings can you think of that do rely on prior sense experience? 3. How necessary is prior sense experience for the facts knowledge and understandings you can think of? _(* ‘facts, knowledge or understandings’ was used to exclude less specific thoughts like, dreams, gut feelings, emotions etc. You could consider them also)_ I have asked many to think about the above. The facts, knowledge and understandings we can think of are reliant upon prior sense experience. So, what is it that you sensed in order to know and understand as you do today? An answer is: Some direct raw reality first hand, mixed with a lot of artificial school environment pre planned learning experiences and for many a lot of various media sensory experiences and so on. What is the primary way to get facts, knowledge and understandings into anyone’s mind? Is it through their senses? To clarify this for yourself, consider this. How could you get some fact, knowledge or understanding into just one persons mind if you couldn’t access their mind through their senses like sight, hearing, touch etc.? Point: A primary entrance into the mind is through the senses. Have a GREAT day Moses! sincerely david

[@jonnyk-uk662]

Would love to see some new debates where Dr Meyer continually crucifixes his opponents position 😏

[@mmatt2613]

The cross factor?

[@LifeandLifeMoreAbundantly]

thanks so much for your work and for your videos. Have you done a video explaining why pop scientists are so bothered by the findings of quantum mechanics as it relates to the potentiality wave collapsing only when observed? and also quantum entanglement? I believe it's because it unravels what they hoped reality would be, and maybe even points to an intelligent designer, specifically the God of the Bible. Thanks again !

[@andrewlevick1015]

It could also be argued that Christianity brought about the European Dark Ages. Without the Dark Ages, we could have gone straight from Greek philosophy and Roman technology to the modern scientific method. The scientific method would have developed earlier. The point is that there are many interpretations of history.

[@WizzRacing]

It started when William Tyndale printed the bible in several languages..The King of England had him burned at the stake for it...This also stated when Europe pushed the Muslims out of Europe. Which the Muslim had occupied for 900 years...Not to mention the Eastern Roman Empire held out till 1453...Which had the Hebrew Manuscript's and established the early church creed...

[@davidfenton3910]

Hi Up2NoGood I was interested in what you said about Tyndale thank you, and had a quick look at Wikipedia for it's typical orthodox H/history. I found some interesting stuff. _"Tyndale's translation was the first English Bible to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, the first English translation to take advantage of the printing press, the first of the new English Bibles of the Reformation"_ And according to the narrative in Wiki, he was strangled and the body burned for opposing the king's divorce. _"A copy of Tyndale's The Obedience of a Christian Man (1528), which some claim or interpret to argue that the king of a country should be the head of that country's church rather than the Pope, came to the hands of King Henry VIII, providing a rationalization for breaking the Church in England from the Catholic Church in 1534.[7][8] In 1530, Tyndale wrote The Practice of Prelates, opposing Henry's plan to seek the annulment of his marriage on the grounds that it contravened scripture.[9] Fleeing England, Tyndale sought refuge in the Flemish territory of the Catholic Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor."_ _"In 1535 Tyndale was arrested, and jailed in the castle of Vilvoorde (Fulford) outside Brussels for over a year. In 1536 he was convicted of heresy and executed by strangulation, after which his body was burnt at the stake."_ Quotes above from Wikipeida en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale Enc Britannica had this interesting snippet: _"Tyndale was educated at the University of Oxford and became an instructor at the University of Cambridge, where, in 1521, _*_he fell in with a group of humanist scholars meeting at the White Horse Inn._*_ Tyndale became convinced that the Bible alone should determine the practices and doctrines of the church and that all believers should be able to read the Bible in their own language."_ As this White Horse Inn bit comes from Foxes Book of Martyr's, I consider it unreliable info. And a little from classicalstudies.org/william-tyndale-and-rhetoric-translation _"It may seem surprising, but Biblical translations into vernacular languages in the Reformation were deeply influenced by classical rhetoric. In William Tyndale’s case, his translations of the New Testament drew extensively on his knowledge of classical rhetorical techniques and frameworks, both in matters of style and interpretation. Tyndale framed his translation as a rhetorical composition in the simple style, hoping it would reach and resonate with as many English speakers as possible. Ultimately, though, he hoped his translation would render the Latin rhetorical tradition unimportant for the Church in England."_ _"Tyndale’s relationship with classical rhetoric is seriously understudied. Daniell (1994) states “Analysis of his rhetorical skills as a translator has barely begun”."_ I consider all the major changes in western society, for a very long time, to most likely be scripted, the use of someone highly skilled in rhetoric is an interesting observation. All the world's a stage, knowing the major stuff is scripted by the major players is necessary. Unless we get our acts together and write some better scripts that get played into realities stage, the global world orders scripts will be the only theatre on the planet. Have a GREAT day you up 2 no good thing! sincerely david

[@davidfenton3910]

*Regarding what was the X-Factor.* To really understand an issue one must have base facts that are true. Otherwise errors will throw off understanding accordingly. The influence of our preconceptions upon us is often hidden from our own view. The X-Factor founding 'Science' based society goes back to a *'Plan in Plato'.* In this plan, Plato specifically suggested coming up with more believable creation narratives. This is why I think the Evolution creation narrative was developed. Note: Evolution was just one part of creating the overall Scientific Narrative foundational to our Scientific society. This all traces back to a *'Plan in Plato'.* *BUT!* The *'Plan in Plato'* goes back further. What follows will be difficult for many Christians to accept, yet with respect and apology for unintended insult or disturbing of beliefs, I could not talk in such forums otherwise, while being honest with myself and towards others. The X-Factor also goes back to the same 'Plan in Plato' to create the Hebrew Bible. Russell Gmirkin in his book *_'Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible'_* identifies Plato’s Laws as a key source for Mosaic law and for the very idea of the Bible as an authoritative national literature. The Old Testament was written "following a literary agenda laid out by the philosopher Plato. In Plato’s _Laws,_ he said that *the most important task was to create a set of laws for a new nation,* and the (philosopher) lawmakers, whatever they did they had to convince the citizenry that those laws were - ancient ... - *Divine* - and ... had never been changed." _Quote from Mr Gmirkin talking with Dr Maat in 'Who Really Wrote the Bible and Why?' on KZbin. Bracket and formatting added._ The following will seem unreasonable to many orthodox believers and thinkers. Like you, in keeping with personal integrity and honesty, I am unable to think and write other than as I think is consistent with the truth of reality. Respectful honest disagreement has helped me encounter facts and reasoning to correct and sharpen much in my mind. The X-Factor, for our Science/science based society, in my view was the use of the same base 'Plan in Plato' but upgraded to create a *_non-religious belief system_* while causing the same kind of cognitive conditioning and faith reasoning, in the original religious implementation of the *'Plan in Plato'.* Christians see Evolutionists as believers in a false narrative and vice versa. I think the reality is both are, and the source is essentially the same, the *'Plan in Plato'.* Again, Mr Gmirkin states that Plato says better creation myths should be looked for by the philosophical rulers of society. In following Plato's plan, Darwin and those with him came up with the 'Evolution Narrative', which reflects that specific direction in Plato's original plan. So to see what has and still is truly going on, believers in any narratives from the _'Plan in Plato'_ have to see beyond blinding preconceptions. Knowing of the plan in Plato's _Laws_ is a key fact. You already know, real foundational facts are necessary for true historical understanding. Missing some or just one key fact can completely debase our understanding and view of reality and vice versa i.e. re-base it! The *'Plan in Plato'* and its ongoing use in western society is perhaps the most important missing fact necessary to re-base society. Once it is known that much of History and Science are deliberately deceptive philosophical narratives, the belief that they are real and hence true, is replaced with eyes better informed and we are able to penetrate the narratives and see them for what they truly are. As I see it the objective truth of the matter is believers in Evolution, Creation, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Science and History with Capital S and H ... pretty much all common folk, are all under the influence of the 'Plan in Plato' and we all need to help each other to get out of the grand deception of the ages and build a society based on competent reality based perception and thinking. Have a GREAT day everyone! sincerely david

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

Wouldn't the existence of this mythical god need to be proven before claiming that they did anything? Or is this just going to be ignored?

[@RelentlessHomesteading]

You ignore the evidences that are right in front of you. First Cause, fine tuning, Cambrian explosion, etc. etc. The problem is not with the evidence -- I am an engineer, and it was the overwhelming amount of evidence that directed me to find this Creator. The problem is with our hearts -- we don't want SELF to be de-throned. So we are like the Goats which are always 'butting'. Believe me I did that for many years -- God answered ALL my questions and ONLY as I followed did He step by step lead me into deeper levels of Truth. Give God a chance -- ...but warning as only those who LOVE the truth above their own 'convenience' and 'pride' will be able to walk the path; as it is a path of obedience and sacrifice. RH

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading Are physics involved in your area of engineering?

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading There's 5 questions on the other thread you are ignoring. Why is this?

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading Do you need me to help you? Even a Train engineer would need a basic grasp of physics. What is the area of engineering that you are working in?

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading You engaged me over here and then ran away. Why is this?

[@Addarraj]

If it was Judu Christian why wait for 1500 years?? You jumped Islam? 🤔

[@Berke-Khan]

jump from greeks directly to Europeans!!! where are the muslims in between

[@sued7]

Many people's have taken the Bible with them as their population spread through the world. Few just used the Bible as decoration. The Bible has been carried by brides down the isle, we have layed ower hand on the Bible to make oaths. Is it possible that the words of the Bible is what makes the difference? Reading and applying the words of the Bible to their lives. Is it possible that this has been the difference? Lev. 26 Deut. 28 are the words of a covenant God made with Israel. But if God is unchanging, could it be that that covenant is good with any people that are willing to follow His teachings. Is this the reason why People's such as United States have been blessed, because we once were a Bible reading people that at least attempted to follow this teaching. The Bible promises long life, less infant death, less disease, prosperity, abundance of food. Wouldn't He have to bless us in Science for those promises to be kept?

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

But the Bible is a work of fiction.

[@RelentlessHomesteading]

So nicely stated Sue !! "But if God is unchanging, could it be that that covenant is good with any people that are willing to follow His teachings." Amen So true -- it is the essence of the "Everlasting Gospel" - it was preached by Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and then Jesus and the Apostles. The New Testament did not do away with the MORAL law of 10 commandments, in fact as in Jer. 31:31 we see that in the NT that law would be 'written in our hearts' - and Jesus even amplified the commandments. We live in a world today much like that of Christ's first coming -- where the bulk of churches have pushed aside His clear teaches and substituted the traditions of men. And the final events are being rapidly fulfilled prior to the close of probation (Rev. 22:11) and the pouring out of the 7 last plagues (Rev. 14-16) which culminate in the return of Christ. The sciences are the first pillars on which my faith rests -- I came from an atheist household and it was the science that finally pointed me to scripture and my Lord and Savior. Praise God for His Goodness ! RH

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading Can you please cite historical accuracy for Moses and Noah to have existed?.Otherwise these mythical religious characters have no bearing on the facts.

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading By chance were any of these scientific pillars physics?

[@imafeltersnatch7634]

@@RelentlessHomesteading You also claim Christ's first coming. Please cite the historical accuracy for this claim as well.

[@mm-wm3jd]

The X Factor is - all the books that Europe had inherited from the Muslim Golden age. Stephen don't seem to take lessons from history that lies have consequences, which brought about the current chaotic state of the West in the first place. But he seems to be stubborn about his lies, and good luck to him.

[@kamelkani4051]

You got all this from the islamic civilization first when Europe was in medievil

[@gamerconfig_com]

Christian thinking, not judeo-christian.