James Tour & Stephen Meyer Bring Clarity to the Origin of Life Debate (Ep. 1)

Have scientists created life from non-life? Is chemical evolution a plausible theory for the origin of the first life on earth? Welcome to the first in a series of four conversations between philosopher of science Dr. Stephen Meyer and chemist ‪@DrJamesTour‬ on the many challenges faced by origin of life researchers.
In Episode 1, Meyer and Tour critique the work of origin of life researcher Steve Benner. Along the way, they discuss the basic definition of life, the RNA world hypothesis, the problem with hands-on chemistry, and why the challenges facing origin of life research increase every year as our understanding of the cell grows. “What is being simulated is the need for intelligent agency to move simple chemicals in a life-friendly direction,” says Meyer, and researchers “seem utterly blind to the role of their own hand, their own mind, in achieving the results that they get, such as they are.”
Dr. Tour, a world-leading synthetic organic chemist at Rice University, has recently been engaged in a series of back-and-forth responses to attacks on his work from KZbin science communicator Dave Farina. This has given Tour a new opportunity to critique experts in the field of abiogenesis and allows an interested public to better evaluate both sides of the argument.
Philosopher of science Dr. Stephen Meyer hosts these engaging conversations. Meyer is author of the 2009 book Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, which explores theories attempting to explain the origin of the first life. So Meyer is the perfect candidate to unpack Tour’s expertise and draw out key insights.
MORE RESOURCES:
Dr. James Tour's lecture at the 2019 Dallas Science & Faith Conference:
• James Tour: The Myster...
Dr. Tour's video series: Addressing Abiogenesis (Season 1):
• Addressing Abiogenesis...
Dr. Tour's video series continues: Addressing Abiogenesis (Season 2):
• Addressing Abiogenesis...
Video edited by Eric Herron, Philosopher Films.
======================================================
This is the official KZbin page of Dr. Stephen Meyer, director of Discovery Institute's Center for Science & Culture. Meyer received his Ph.D. in the philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge. His latest book is Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries that Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe (2021), see returnofthegodhypothesis.com/.
Praise for Return of the God Hypothesis:
"This book makes it clear that far from being an unscientific claim, intelligent design is valid science."
BRIAN JOSEPHSON, NOBEL LAUREATE IN PHYSICS; FELLOW OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY; EMERITUS PROFESSOR OF PHYSICS, UNIVERSITY OF CAMBRIDGE
Meyer is also the author of The New York Times best selling book Darwin's Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the case for Intelligent Design (HarperOne, 2013), and Signature In The Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design (2009). For more information about Dr. Meyer, his research, and his books visit stephencmeyer.org/.
"No one else in my experience can explicate such complex material with the grace and clarity that seem so effortless to Stephen Meyer. With cold logic and meticulous rational analysis of the latest discoveries in cosmology, physics, and biology, Meyer confirms a truth that the ideologues find too frightening even to consider. By the ad hominem nature of their attacks on his brilliant work, they confirm its importance and suggest an eventual end to the scientism that warps our culture."
DEAN KOONTZ, NEW YORK TIMES #1 BEST-SELLING AUTHOR
The CSC is the institutional hub for scientists, educators, and inquiring minds who think that nature supplies compelling evidence of intelligent design. The CSC supports research, sponsors educational programs, defends free speech, and produce articles, books, and multimedia content.
Visit other KZbin channels connected to the Center for Science & Culture
Discovery Institute: / discoveryinstitute
The Magician's Twin - CS Lewis & Evolution: / cslewisweb
Darwin's Heretic - Alfred Russel Wallce: / alfredrwallaceid
For more information visit
-- www.discovery.org/id/
-- www.evolutionnews.org/
-- www.intelligentdesign.org/
Follow the CSC on Facebook and Twitter:
Twitter: @discoverycsc
Facebook: / discoverycsc

[@ptortland]

Outstanding video! I’m a physician with a deeply renewed interest in origin of life apologetics, and listening to both of these esteem scientists geek out on the organic chemistry is such a blast for me. Also, hearing the arguments articulated in such a cogent manner is refreshing. God bless you, and keep up the excellent work.

[@steveg1961]

Clue: Stephen Meyer isn't a scientist. Clue: James Tour is a scientist, but he's literally never done any scientific research having anything to do with origin of life research. So, yeah, thank you for displaying the utterly vacuous nature of creationist rhetoric in regard to giving kudos to "scientists" whose remarks have literally zero relevance to any of the actual science. Yep, this is the vacuous nature of the rhetoric of people who promote creationism pseudoscience, and I thank you for it.

[@Joe-gi3nj]

As someone with a bachelors in chemistry, a graduate degree in in molecular bio/genetics, and currently earning a medical doctorate (more academic training than farina), it was abundantly clear that Farina lacked skills in critically analyzing the papers he threw at Tour in the debate. I agree with Tour that Farina is a victim, insofar that he buys into the hype pushed by scientists looking to affirm their life’s work/livelihood. He strongly relied on sensationalized claims and titles, but couldn’t actually describe the experiments to any significant degree. However, there was no excuse for Farina’s behavior in that debate. He overcame all of his victim status with his cringe-worthy display of narcissism and pure nastiness. To tell Tour that he “doesn’t know science” and to tell the audience they are “too dumb to read research” is just pathetic; especially with the obvious display of critical reading skills that farina showed. I commend you two for your hospitality with which you describe Farina in this discussion. He truly isn’t deserving of it. Just watch, he’ll come across this comment and make sure to call me a “anti-science moron”. The guy never misses an opportunity to childishly insult people who disagree with him on social media. Dave seems like a miserable person with a fragile ego. It’s clear he’s extremely biased, and I hope that he wakes up one day with some humility, for his own good.

[@colepriceguitar1153]

May I ask, what’s your position on origins?

[@tonymaurice4157]

Abiogenesis fails

[@KaiXray]

Amen

[@celestialsatheist1535]

Oww how adorable. Also farina lacks skills. Yeah sure . The guy who denies peer review papers that says researchers have indeed made fully self replicating molecules with genetic content just because it's inconvenient to his faith. The world that we live in

[@branfordm9639]

About 10 minutes into that debate it was clear Farina was only there to do his “Prof. Dave” punk schtick, not to wrestle in good faith with the science. He’s just a huckster with a microphone.

[@stefanjansson3423]

Thank you Stephen Meyer, for this video. I love to listen to Dr James Tour thru "your glasses" (ears). This is well needed when James Tour often is too intense in his lecturing. Keep on doing this kinds of dialogues together. You Stephen can put the questions we all have and try to get it all "straighten out". Looking forward to many more videos like this. God bless. the man from Scandinavia

[@phexcell]

In the debate Farina just kept saying that Tour is lying, lying, lying. Hardly a civilised or productive way to conduct a debate. And in later videos he claims he won the debate! How?

[@martinlag1]

He pointed out that Tour was lying. He also produced the scientific papers that Tour thinks don't exist.

[@newparadoxcity9911]

@@martinlag1 Given this very video, it would seem that the claim that you make here is wrong. (see 40:00 to 43:00)

[@RepublicConstitution]

Simply because he has more atheist followers. Christians largely just abandon these areas of knowledge.

[@RepublicConstitution]

@@martinlag1 False. Tour asked him in the debate to come to the chalkboard and prove his claims and he said he could not. Then he started cussing.

[@juliocarvalho7361]

Not once these two individuals said God created something, however, those who like to discredit their work find much easier to say that their solution is the "god of the gaps" for every unknown. In this discussion we observe both of them stating irrefutable facts that contradict the materialist point of view which irrationally defends the unguided Darwinian evolutionary process. I am certain that Dr. Tour and Myer are knowledgeable about the information their opponents posit. On the other hand, I highly doubt they ever read Dr. Tour scientific papers or one of Dr. Meyers' books. As long as pride is in the way, there will hardly ever be a change of mind. Thank you for such wise talk.

[@Joe-gi3nj]

@@galileog8945that’s not their position. Meyer’s position is that “based on the discovery of patterns in nature that are ONLY known to arise via intelligent processes, intelligence is the best current explanation” This is heavily different than “idk man, must be God”. If you can’t acknowledge that basic distinction, then you’re either disingenuous or oblivious to your own biases and logical fallacies

[@juliocarvalho7361]

@@galileog8945 glad to be in this discussion. I personally want science to advance as much as possible in the investigation of how life started, however, logic tells me that at some point the need to invoke a supreme intelligence will be inevitable for the simplw fact that nothingness cannot create something. Let me be clear that I am not advocating for the existence of God as understood by traditional religion let it alone that Jesus is god. Instead, reason tells that the universe could not have risen from nothing and "something", that we are far from understanding IT, must have created it including life, then evolution took its course.

[@justsomeone953]

They can not state that a god created anything. As soon as they do they have to show evidence for that and there is none.

[@steveg1961]

@@Joe-gi3nj That's pretty funny how you contradicted yourself with your own words. Plus, what you describe as Meyer's position is itself flawed, since when have "intelligent processes" created a living organism? The creationist argument has always been based on the god-of-the-gaps fallacy. That's Tour's position, Meyer's position, and the position of every other creationist on the planet. If you can't acknowledge that basic fact, then you're either disingenuous or oblivious to your own biases and logical fallacies.

[@wavethatcrashed9155]

@@justsomeone953 None that is tangible and satisfactory

[@OtterFlys]

I’d like Dr. Tour and Meyer to talk more about ‘catalysts' and ‘enzymes' because many critics of intelligent design confuse purely chemical catalysts (like platinum) with the biological catalysts (aka proteins). They do similar things but there is no comparison. Without understanding this radical difference, the ID critics often dismiss cellular functions as simply ‘chemistry'. I think calling a protein a catalyst is a confusing misnomer. When I first understood this difference (from reading 'Signature in the Cell) it was like a movie scene where a human is discovered to be an android. To me it was the smoking gun evidence of design.

[@douglasphillips5870]

The problem with intelligent design is that there has been even less success producing a god under laboratory conditions than biochemicals.

[@ab_ab_c]

Excellent point! I made a similar point in an earlier comment.

[@rebanelson607]

I agree. Autocatalysis is not "life" by anyone's definition!

[@ivanivanov-zn2ct]

@@galileog8945 Enzymes are not biological molecules, they are complex biological molecular machines. Machine Definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine “A machine is a physical system using power to apply forces and control movement to perform an action. The term is commonly applied to artificial devices, such as those employing engines or motors, but also to natural biological macromolecules, such as molecular machines.” All ion pumps are also machines. Motor proteins kinesin, dynein, myosin are machines. Archaellum, Flagellum, and ATP synthase are rotatory reversible machinery. RNA polymerases, DNA polymerases, Helicases, aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases (aaRSs) are complex machines. All membrane transpotters (The ATP-binding cassette (ABC) transporter superfamily, the mitochondrial carrier family (SLC25), the lysosomal transporter TAPL, the SecY/E translocation complex) and many others are also machines. The question concerns not only the work of enzymes as machines, but their origin. The origin and evolution of Archaea: a state of the art www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1578729/ “The sudden appearance of the complete set of enzymes of the methanogenic pathway in the early evolution of Euryarchaeota is puzzling.” Metabolite-Enzyme Coevolution: From Single Enzymes to Metabolic Pathways and Networks www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-biochem-062917-012023 “How individual enzymes evolved is relatively well understood. However, individual enzymes rarely confer a physiological advantage on their own. Judging by its current state, the emergence of metabolism seemingly demanded the simultaneous emergence of many enzymes. Indeed, how multicomponent interlocked systems, like metabolic pathways, evolved is largely an open question.” Characterization of a glycan-binding complex of minor pilins completes the analysis of Streptococcus sanguinis type 4 pili subunits January 10, 2023 www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2216237120 “T4F are a superfamily of filamentous nanomachines ubiquitous in bacteria and archaea (1, 2), mediating a wide variety of functions ranging from adhesion to protein secretion. Although T4F have been studied for 40 y-notably T4P (46)-many aspects of their complex biology remain poorly understood.” Learning processes in hierarchical pairs regulate entire gene expression in cells Published: 09 May 2022 www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10998-z “It remains unclear how the expression level of more than 10,000 genes is properly controlled in a cell.” Molecular mechanism of light-driven sodium pumping Published: 01 May 2020 www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16032-y “A key question remains to be answered: what is the mechanism of pumping. Indeed, principles of Na+ transport by KR2 and other NaRs remain unclear.” Marine Bacterial and Archaeal Ion-Pumping Rhodopsins: Genetic Diversity, Physiology, and Ecology 14 September 2016 journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/MMBR.00003-16 “The exact molecular mechanisms underlying such light-induced substrate uptake by SAR11 clade bacteria or other PR photoheterotrophs remain unknown.”

[@nahshon9998]

Life isn't about catalysts and enzymes. I will give you all you want. Life isn't about proteins or amino acids, I will give you all you want. Life is about complex, coded and specified information. And complex, coded and specified only comes from an intelligent source. What bothers me is that none of these geniuses don't seem to get the obvious.

[@fireside9503]

My wife says Meyer reminds her of a prince - such an extensive vocabulary, patience and presence. His intelligence coupled with his humility is a wonderful example of personhood. He is the best spokesperson for ID in my opinion. Thank you, Dr. Meyer.

[@OtterFlys]

I liked Tour's casual remark about 'rust' being the main result of OOL experiments. I use that same term when discussing OOL with ID critics who claim the holy grail of 'self reproduction' in some of these experiments. As long as you feed iron water and oxygen, iron oxide (rust) will 'reproduce' forever. This kind of reproduction proves nothing in the abiogenesis argument.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

ID has no model. It has provided no scientific model for how anything happens. ID is not science. It’s religious belief.

[@shadowmax889]

Except there was very little oxygen in the primitive atmosphere, so your criticism is ridiculous

[@tonymaurice4157]

@shadowmax889 abiogenesis fails! And using clever chemists designed equipment and pure chemicals doesn't help!

[@JB-yb4wn]

@@shadowmax889 And, that same said oxygen, at the time, was toxic to life on Earth.

[@Reclaimer77]

Fine fine. So what is the actual Intelligent Design model? It drives me crazy that nobody asks Stephen Myer such a basic question. All the do is try to poke holes in the evolutionary model using many (dishonest) means, but what is the Intelligent Design model? I've heard Stephen Myer and his ilk use the "computer code information" analogy several times. They love it because it's simple for people of all IQ ranges to understand, and it's relatable. But it drives me crazy that in these debates nobody simply says: "Okay I accept that only an intelligence could put "information" into the DNA that makes up a cell. However since the cell is "like a computer" when how did your "Designer" upload the code? Where is the USB port? Where is the wireless antenna of the cell? What is your scientific model for how your Designer transferred the code into the DNA? Have you built a detector to find the "signal in the cell"? I'm a layman and I would take Stephen Myer apart with this approach in just a few minutes. The reason I think scientists don't is that this approach is beneath them. But these are questions he needs to be faced to answer. If you accept that life is made up of physical properties that were simply "designed", then for this to be accepted as science you MUST have a model for that how information was embedded into it. Also if evolution is simply 'firmware updates', how are they up uploaded? What is the catalyst for the changes? How can we detect when the "designer" is interacting with the matter around us? Scientists have spent billions of dollars and billions of man-hours to prove the Gravitational Wave model. It took literally over 100 years since Einstein first proposed it for the theory to actually be confirmed. From what I can tell the Discovery Institute not only is spending zero time and zero man-hours of proving their model - they've not even bothered to propose one in the first place!

[@bentonpix]

I'm so grateful for the work of James Tour and Stephen Meyer!

[@BP7BlackPearl]

Yes, they do work, Tarina just blabs. Tarina actually uses guys like Professor Tour to get followers.

[@F15CEAGLE1]

The Meyer Trilogy.

[@justinstrong9595]

​@@BP7BlackPearlfarina* and his videos have FAR more views than tours lmao

[@3rdgrade738]

Two world champs,Meyer and Tour.

[@JamesMiddletonDesign]

James Tour, in a "spirit" interview? Never! Well, actually...every time. And that is what we love about him. Keep up that fighting spirit, James!

[@lmb1931]

Professor Dave was a great example of the cognitive distortion of mind reading. Everything he spews forth is based upon it. He never engages in the argument itself.

[@soundphilosophy]

A sort of combination of two of the main categories of logical fallacies, assumptions, and abusive speech. It’s the go-to tactic of those pushing or defending destructive lies, going for "the loudest person wins" basically.

[@huepix]

Following the evidence is like that. All arguments fall in the face of reality.

[@patticarey9016]

Excellent discussion! I love how Dr. Meyer asks many questions, which he already knows the answer to, in order to make sure the reasons, the "why is that important" information is stated by Dr. Tour. These two are stellar!

[@tonymaurice4157]

Abiogenesis fails on so many levels! Chemists produce a hodge podge of useless chemicals, compounds and then they buy everything else in pure form... And even with all the investigator interference they come nowhere close to life!

[@nonprogrediestregredi1711]

Wow, you have set the bar exceedingly low if you feel that these two are "stellar".

[@cpjds1]

@@nonprogrediestregredi1711The bar is set at the level of exploring the fullness of knowledge with someone (Tour) who has rather epic accreditations, patents and published papers on the subject. What would really be best is to have Tour on Dave’s show.

[@juilianbautista4067]

@@nonprogrediestregredi1711 the people opposite to these two scientists with actual credentials set the bar pretty low, sooooo

[@2fast2block]

Tour is a sellout. He's said, "I have always maintained that I presume that one day we will understand the origin of life. Not only will we create life in the laboratory, but we will understand how it came about or at least make a proposal about how it came about."

[@1g1d1w]

Thanks for having James Tour on.

[@tompeers53]

I was there in the second row for that debate. I'm not a scientist and don't know the debt of OOL science, but even at that I could tell someone dealt purely with the science and the other just engaged in ad hominem attacks with little substance when challenged.

[@sliglusamelius8578]

Farina was an absolute azz.

[@tonymaurice4157]

Just say dave was a joke and had no clue!

[@Tinesthia]

You mean the person who literally brought all the OOL science papers and the other person who only wanted to look at a black board and not the OOL papers.

[@lisanloves]

@@TinesthiaJames Tour has gone through OOL research papers in his Abiogenesis series and has explained in detail why the claims made in the titles and abstracts don’t match with the methods and results. It’s not enough to bring OOL papers that make exaggerated claims.

[@CosmosArchipelago]

@@Tinesthiaall Dave did was try to appeal to authority. This is not an argument and it’s a fallacy.

[@colepriceguitar1153]

I’m glad you guys are giving Dave credit for doing some things right and not making personal attacks on him like he did to you guys. Your really being the bigger men here. Helps your credibility and hurts Dave’s.

[@RobertF-]

They are the bigger Minds.

[@jojohnviz12]

Dave is a narcissist & he knows deep down he's out of his depth , rather than admit any ignorance the narcissist will lash out to protect their fragile self deluded image

[@celestialsatheist1535]

Calling frauds frauds is not personal attack it's a factual statement

[@michellenurse456]

​@@RobertF- Exactly...your reply is exactly what came to mind.

[@tonymaurice4157]

Dave failed, abiogenesis fails

[@rebanelson607]

This is the BEST video so far on this subject. Hearing two real scientists discuss this clarifies the issue. Dr. Tour keeps presenting his arguments against the people who make ridiculously inflated claims that go unchallenged because they fit in with the accepted theories. The truth has a way of eventually coming to light and scientists like these two may help to speed up the process. Many thanks!

[@jopappas5090]

"Time is on our side" 😂 My mirror says otherwise. Great conversation Stephen and James!

[@dengelbrecht6428]

Absolutely underated as a comment. It would maybe usefull to integrate in abiognesis courses as a comedic relief. The science behind entrophy can be pretty boring but this is a good, friendly and funny way to summarize the problem.

[@kazumakiryu157]

Haha don't lose hope, sister!

[@MendeMaria-ej8bf]

Dr. Stephen C. Meyer is an excellent mediator and it is so good to hear that things can be clarified.

[@surrenderdaily333]

I appreciate scientists who know what they're talking about and are not afraid of the truth and what might happen if they tell it. Thank you Dr. Meyer and Dr. Tour for this great conversation! I pray that America and the people of God will stand so that scientific truth will finally change the text books and only TRUE science will be taught to my great grandchildren. I will also pray for Dave Farina and Steven Benner.

[@davidjames3359]

Dr. Meyer & Dr. Tour, you are both to be congratulated for: 1) Getting together to discuss the falsities of Origins of Life, and 2) Getting together as likely the two most brilliant minds that have contributed SO MUCH to the whole world. What a great blessing this has been for so many. Don't stop now, Do it again!

[@jamespenny9482]

You would have to include Dr Hugh Ross in any consideration of the most brilliant minds. But yes, these guys are great!

[@histreeonics7770]

What has Meyer contributed? His books on evolution show a lack of understanding of the theory, they debunk only his wrong ideas and do so poorly.

[@tonymaurice4157]

@@histreeonics7770 abiogenesis fails

[@John777Revelation]

During a 2015 televised panel discussion, Dr. Richard Dawkins (Widely regarded as World's Leading Darwinian Evolutionary Scientist) admitted, *_“The Origin of Life is something we don’t know anything about. And we want to know something about it. And I would love to know how life actually got started.”_* (Source: Real Time with Bill Maher, Overtime, October 2, 2015, HBO)

[@rayquinton6450]

Sadly when someone has a problem, when you show them ignorant, they assume youre saying theyre stupid. Its a psychological problem.

[@funnysticks]

Watching the debate between James and Dave really did show Dave could not decipher what the researchers were saying in their papers, and he was just regurgitating what they said, while also attacking James' character the whole time.

[@tonymaurice4157]

Abiogenesis fails

[@chadwolf3840]

That’s all the neo-darwinists have. They must know deep down how stupid their lives work is, but they don’t want to admit it.

[@justindolan4985]

There is a reason for attacking character

[@lemonhead9628]

@@tonymaurice4157Just like without a miracle the big bang theory fails and everything else explained within the universe.

[@tonymaurice4157]

Clever chemists with designed equipment and pure chemicals has no relevance to early Earth.

[@rudolfaeschlimann6959]

I love the enthusiasm of James Tour but I think bringing Stephen Meyer into the conversation with his calmer form multiplies the value of the information enormously. Thanks to both of you, you are greatly needed to uncover the hidden lies in this field of science.

[@truthseeker8698]

Dr. Meyer and Dr. Tour, you are both heroes. Please keep speaking truth into the lies.🙏🏽❤

[@tookymax]

Congratulations to James, Stephen and Discovery Institute for bringing some truth to all of us.

[@tonymaurice4157]

Abiogenesis fails

[@samburns3329]

"truth".

[@ferrisbeuler8657]

Dr Meyer is one of the greatest minds of our time.

[@rebanelson607]

And an excellent communicator. His questions in this video helped tremendously.

[@robertecarpenter]

Yes, they both are! These men have impeccable credentials.

[@F15CEAGLE1]

The Meyer trilogy is superb!!!

[@NA-pr7sf]

Dont worry so much what ppl like professor Dave and his followers think of you.. be secure in yourselves and present your research.. it will speak for it self.. Love you guys, God bless ❤

[@mistymoor7114]

Very good video. Stephen Meyer brings a note of calm and clarity to the discussion. I applaud what Dr Tour is trying to do but he gets a bit over excited which makes it difficult for the average person to assess what he is talking about. Hope you two can carry this on together Stephens support and commentary makes things more understandeable

[@JesusThineBeTheGlory]

I watched a video where Lee Cronin said he had evidence of abiogenesis and in the video he talked all about how amazing this discovery was and how it answers so many questions about the origin of life itself. However when he finally explained what the “amazing” evidence was it turned out to be incredibly hilarious. He said his evidence was of memory in the cell membrane and the proof was bubbles in salad cream….. I must admit that I laughed, but it actually confirms the scripture that says, professing to be wise they are but fools.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

Yes, you’ve figured it all out by reading just one book. That book knows the future afterall. Those PhD scientists who written their own books after decades of research. They are all fools. The Bronze Age cult has it all figured out. Not the men who build space ships and cell phones.

[@onedirection2301]

@@isidoreaerys8745 Yes, they've built space ships and cell phones, but not a cell. Not even a protocell. That is a product of YHWH, who also put his Signature in the story of Jacob and Laban. That book knows the future, because humans are predictable. God knew that one day they would deny God. Those scientists are not fools from a scientific point of view. They are fools from God's point of view. They are like clay vessels who deny the one who formed them. "How you turn things upside down! - Is the potter not better than the clay, Does something made say of its maker, “He didn’t make me”? Does the product say of its producer, “He has no discernment”?" (Isaiah 29:16, CJB)

[@esq8]

He probably discovered Paul Newman's ranch dressing and thought it was the holy grail.

[@lieslceleste3395]

He was talking about memory required as it pertains to assembly theory.

[@ashunbound]

Dr Tour and Dr Meyer is what we’ve waited so long for!

[@jeffl511]

The people on the wrong side of a debate are always far more prone to personal attacks, labeling, name calling, and shots below the belt to make up for their ignorance of the facts. I have never heard any competent scientist resort to those types of tactics because they don’t have to. They have the actual knowledge of the science and that’s what they stick to. It’s nothing personal for them. It just is what it is. Really enjoyed this interview. Great work.

[@KaiXray]

I absolutely love both of you, James and Stephen you are both brilliant minds of this century and I pray people really try to understand you bc what you guys are saying makes complete sense. I used to be atheist but now I’m 100 % certain life was most certainly designed. You are brave men and you give me hope. Thank you both for all your brilliant work. 😊

[@anzawilldie4379]

same here, i love these guys' effort and clarity...and, most important of all, honestly, what is wrong with someone,anyone telling you not to kill,not to steal, not to harm your fellow humans...trully atheists are so confused people.

[@coalsnail9919]

​@@anzawilldie4379 as an atheist I can tell you I am far from confused. I am 100% not convinced any gods exist. Maybe try talking to an atheist before making such claims

[@l.m.892]

Not only does it make complete sense, it is also scientifically sound.

[@chadwolf3840]

Your work has changed my life. It’s a crime that children are basically taught that god is fake when in fact intelligent design has way more logic behind it than darwinism ever did.

[@somdattamaiti8941]

God is fake. No evidence of id till now.

[@larrytate1657]

Def. The more we learn the more we see that evolution is a fallacy.

[@goliath257]

Unfortunately for Dr Tour it’s not possible to have meaningful debate with narcissism.

[@justsomeone953]

I don't think that is narcissism. I'm pretty sure he is a nice and "good" guy. Thing is his mind is infected with an idea of religion. He is trying to defend his world view ... who would not?

[@marie-rosebarnes4639]

Thank you Dr. Tour for standing strong for truth. You are very much appreciated.

[@shaccooper4828]

Dave is not the victim. Please stop repeating that. It’s not gonna soften him up. He’s a deceiver just like the rest of them, but worse. Dave has absolutely no regard for truth, he only wants to demolish opponents despite truth. This is why his entire argument was rapid fire ad hominem. I think the next time you debate him you should see him for what he is and not be duped in thinking it’s about finding or proving truth. He doesn’t care. Coming out victorious in front of his fans, keeping the KZbin revenue flowing and keeping his pride in tact is his only aim.

[@soundphilosophy]

A great and needed comment, I agree with you.

[@salmonkill7]

Sadly I must agree with you!!

[@Psalm1101]

A true gentleman thank-you Mr. Tour

[@nb7524]

I appreciate your excellent response. You both bring for a robust explanation with integrity. Also, I respect your character in not being disrespectful as those who stand in opposition to you have been. Thank you for representing your argument so well!

[@curtisscott9251]

LOL: So, the punch line will be that when those trying to prove bio-genesis via natural processes actually get to making something that is "life", they would have then "proven" that Intelligent Design was necessary!

[@Thishandlewasvailable]

Two of my favourite people talking. It doesn't get much better than this.

[@drummersagainstitk]

I give all credit to all of you to get people like me to get into this work. Thank YOU!!!

[@matthewcarr4907]

You guys are the absolute best.

[@BIBLE-UNBUTCHERED]

Dr Meyer - your work is outstanding

[@regeneratedzed]

I, for one, and very pleased that someone has finally stood up to the bully "professor" dave. He is very condescending and shows the level of badgering some people are willing to stoop to get views.

[@MartTLS]

Tour lost it. He was completely unhinged shouting down Dave preventing him from speaking and being heard . Those weren’t the actions of someone in control or with a coherent argument to put across. He lost all credibility with his childish behaviour .

[@MrSeedi76]

​​@@MartTLShave you ever had a look in Dave's comment section? He does all the same things himself. Insults, shouting people down, etc. I never saw such a pathetic comment section. Even flat earthers have more social skills.

[@coloradodutch7480]

Dave was not addressing the problems. Dave’s answers didn’t answer anything. He kept claiming this paper says it can be done without understanding all the qualifications that paper applied to get to their summary statements. It was clear he was completely out of his depth. Agreed that Tour yelled but it was clear that Dave’s non answers and non understanding of the issues was frustrating him.

[@peterzinya1]

@@MartTLS Im assuming you cant understand the chemistry Tour put on the chalk board. So you have to keep OoL alive by calling him childish. If you did understand the chemistry, you would sound alot different.

[@raygiordano1045]

Thanks for doing this interview with Dr. Tour so he could expand on his positions and counter-arguments in a better format than that debate with Dave. Dave was able to gloss over all the inconvenient facts in the papers he cited and get away with too much insulting of Dr. Tour for my tastes.

[@robertecarpenter]

At 54:00 Dr. Meyer says, "Dr. Tour, you have done a great service for science." Yes, Yes, Yes!!!! And may I humbly say, Dr. Meyer, so have you. I know it has been at a price. Great is your reward.

[@martinjan2334]

As to mentioned Steve Benner, one of Dave Farina's OoL-research experts: quote: "Around 2007, I heard Dr Steven Benner at JPL admit to a group of scientists and other employees that the problems in his field are so vexing, it was almost enough to make one become a creationist. The audience chuckled nervously. Such an admission must never be heard by the public. Benner listed problem after problem: chirality, genetic takeovers, accumulations of tar, and the difficulty of making ribose. When Benner is on camera, however, he smiles and talks about all the progress they’re making." --David F. Coppedge

[@jimpsonuyaguari9665]

Mighty God bless you two men with wisdom.

[@jerubaal3333]

Dr Tour, jestem tak bardzo wdzięczny Ci za Twoje filmy. Najwspanialsza prezentacja tych problemów jakie kiedykolwiek widziałem. Dziękuję Ci też za to w jaki sposób traktujesz tego pyszałka Dave Farina. On faktycznie jest ofiarą, która gra fachowca i sędziego zachowując się arogancko i bez szacunku. James, podziwiam CIę za Twój doskonały styl i zaangażowanie w szerzeniu prawdy w nauce.

[@judithschuett4978]

Blame his arrogant teachers...who will not even consider their own foolishness

[@John777Revelation]

Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson (World renown American astrophysicist, planetary scientist, author, etc.), while referring to the Origin of Life during a panel discussion, stated, *_“… It’s still just organic chemistry. At the end of the day, you want to have self-replicating life. And that’s a mystery.”_* (Source: Real Time with Bill Maher, Overtime, October 2, 2015, HBO)

[@tonymaurice4157]

Abiogenesis fails

[@chadwolf3840]

Tyson is such a blow hard. He’s no dedicating more time to the new research on how there are like 100 genders. I’d put zero weight to anything that guy says. Good TV personality, bad scientist.

[@waxworse]

Great channel 🙂👍

[@justaguy328]

Dave doesn't understand the science but he has the utmost faith in scientist's who push darwinism. His position is faith based, and he defends it so viciously because it's not just a scientific theory, it's a competing religious worldview. I don't even see how scientists creating life in a laboratory could, in any way, prove that life came about through unguided processes. It's completely self defeating. It doesn't seem to be a scientific question. The process of building the cells and getting them reproduce may be able to be studied and understood, but you can't claim that intelligent scientists designing these experiments and creating life somehow disproves and intelligent creator lol. That's a philosophical/theological question, not a scientific one.

[@soundphilosophy]

A very good point (that Stephen Meyer also made in this video about 3 quarters through). Even if laboratory scientists could do it through extreme manipulation based on their design (using human intelligence), that in no way proves that undirected chemical processes could do it!

[@Mrm1985100]

I really love Meyer's work.

[@ThePultzFamily]

Brilliant Dr. Meyer and Dr. Tour! Greetings from Denmark

[@joellukeovercomingvictoryt8183]

Love Denmark from England great country God bless you bro 🙏

[@Erik_Danley]

Thanks so much for you both! Boy it’s a bit disheartening to realize Dave is getting millions of views/subscribers and “our side” is a tiny fraction. But in any case, I do know that Truth wins

[@MrSeedi76]

But anybody looking into Dave's comment section, should immediately see what type of person he is. Constantly insulting people who disagree with him, aggressive and mean spirited. If he was so sure of what he claims, why all the personal attacks of people in his own comment section? I've been on his channel once, couldn't get out quickly enough. Really nasty atmosphere.

[@UnforeseenTruth]

@erikdanley7626, from last I check over a month ago, Dave Farina: 2.51M Subscribers, 10K comments ONLY, with 1000s of negative comments against him which he deletes. Most of his audience from the Flat Earth movement from years ago. Dr. James Tour: 77.3K Subscribers ONLY, with 20K comments and 99℅ against Dave, with no deletion of comments. Most of the audience comprise from the scientific community. That a huge difference in numbers, which is quite embarrassing for Dave. Now, as to your claim that, "Dave is getting millions of views/subscribers and “our side” is a tiny fraction.” Well, we need to understand that Dave has way many more subscribers overall compared to Dr. Tour, so that would be a major factor that plays behind then scenes with the KZbin algorithms of Dave's channel being exposed more widely on the platform, thus, more subscribers. But when it comes to whom the audience thinks won the debate, that hands down goes to Tour, despite the numbers of subscribers. Many of Dave's own subscribers remained silent on the debate, which gives a strong indication who they side with on the issue of Abiogenesis or OOL.

[@anzawilldie4379]

no reason to feel disheartened at all!! as long as you are following the right path, you can only be gratefull to have been advised on time of the wrong road... after all, dave farina makes it sound like scientists can make life in the lab any time they wanted, the fact that they haven't says enough, ....

[@user-bl7oe2md4p]

Boy I almost feel bad for these origin of life researchers who are running into these interlocking compounding probably insurmountable problems; which is beginning to demonstrate the complete impossibility for inanimate chemistry to spontaneously self organize and bootstrap itself into a full functioning self replicating system.

[@rebanelson607]

KZbinrs/bloggers learn how to PANDER to a targeted audience. The tension and conflict attract certain kinds of people who are probably not attracted to a logical, scientific discussion like the one on this video. Kinda like the crowds at the Roman Coliseum screaming for blood.

[@oksurfer6086]

Dr Tour: brilliant and intense!

[@earleneschmitt3326]

God bless you Dr Tour for clarifying and bringing a deeper meaning and appreciation for complex chemistry of life ! Physicist Dr Michael G Strauss has an interview on Adherent Apologetics which addressed misconceptions on fine tuning origin of the universe. Our youth and public need to have better discernment & awareness on the volumes of misinformation being preposed on public media. Your series of abiogenesis lectures are enlightening and enjoyable, and inspire further curiosity & literature exploration.

[@marcsee4072]

Hilarious. Love Jim Tour - passionate about his field of expertise and an honest man

[@nicklava8307]

Awesome interview. 2 of the best minds discussing fascinating topics. Thank you both.

[@Nikitaxo24]

Great video glad stephen myer and james tour discuss this too. Stephen was asking good questions to make it easier to understand.

[@sonusancti]

I'm not a scientist and my summary for this deep chemical discussion is that Banner guy is a lying sleaze ball. I think i got this right.

[@edenrosest]

Dr. James made a powerful scientific objection so that when scientists talk about the origin of life, unlike they do in the theory of evolution, they can no longer assert that life could have arisen spontaneously, with hypotheses of near-zero feasibility.

[@gulgaio]

Near zero is enough....

[@F15CEAGLE1]

Great insights from both James Tour and Stephen Meyer.

[@nicklava8307]

Thank you Dr. Meyer for adding in clarifications for us or me at least to understand. 👍

[@nicklava8307]

Love the passion from Dr. Tour.

[@johnhein4851]

Excellent video by excellent men!

[@hamptonadam]

Excellent conversation! Thank you both very much! GOD BLESS!

[@DonswatchingtheTube]

The back-and-forth between James and Dave Farina has brought forth some really good videos. James might not have wanted to make them, but it's a silver lining for everyone else. 😊

[@zbigniewbecker5080]

Stephen Meyer's comment in the first minute exposes the very problem of the debate in question: the many light years intellectual distance between the interlocutors - something requireing several earthly years of study and effort on the part of the junior to get even close to the same level of knowledge, integrity and humility as the senior one, whichg would make the debate constructive...

[@UnforeseenTruth]

This video alone other than the debate is an embarrassing slap to Dave Farina's lack of understanding of OOL and the scientific literature and its chemistry. This was an amazing good discussion. And as the saying goes, "The Truth Will Set you Free!"

[@Tinesthia]

That’s funny considering the OOL researchers themselves, many of whom Dave interviewed showed Dave had a good understanding of their research papers that Dave cited and their peer’s OOL research and underlying chemistry.

[@henryb1555]

​@@Tinesthiayou didn't bother watching this video either did you?

[@johngriffin6481]

Excellent discussion, respectful and educational. I always look forward to new uploads. I must read your most recent book again

[@michaelbabbitt3837]

Two people I greatly admire in an informative and clarifying discussion on the origin of life. Thank you!

[@Jaryism]

Amazing video I can’t wait to hear more

[@abelcardenas2091]

I'd never thought I'd enjoy this type of discussion but here I am. keep up the good work gentlemen

[@shanesimons8987]

Excellent video, I’m glad real scientists are calling out the junk science 👏

[@coalsnail9919]

Every year we get a little bit closer to understanding the origin of life. Why stop research just because one man thinks it's impossible? Especially a man with a strong bias toward religion. Please don't trust those that want to stop you from learning

[@tonymaurice4157]

@@coalsnail9919 clever chemists using pure chemicals, designed equipment and highly manipulated processes is not helping prebiotic Chemistry.

[@lawrence1318]

@@coalsnail9919 Biological life is not really life. The important thing is spiritual life, in particular, our relationship with God.

[@therealkingbaldwin]

⁠@@coalsnail9919nobody said to stop. Certainly Tour never did. He just said we don’t know and a lot of papers exaggerate or misrepresent the data of the experiment in the titles and abstract. Kinda weird how you are arguing against a position never stated by anyone here, seems a little schizophrenic, or paranoid at the very least, like worrying about ghosts. Chill out man.

[@torbjornlindstrom5218]

I guess a very great point is that for every singel step an intervention is neccessary to help in the process of creating life, it’s actually CONFIRMING more and more that such a «creative mind» very likely is also neccessary in the real creation of life !

[@dessiewatkins1006]

My mom gave me the mental reference points needed to explore scientific debates pertaining to the current themes. Accademically, she only had a GED, but her love for human persuit of higher intelligence left behind her a path of footsteps which would not diverge from belief in a Higher authority. That template did not lead her to become arrogantly passionate against the lower classes, the poor, or the elderly-it lead her to be furious with religious authorities and secular governments alike. And I understood why.

[@donworrylah]

This was a great video. I appreciated some terms being explained that I’ve heard in other videos and podcasts.

[@zchilli0808]

I came across the Farina vs Tour debate by incident. It is completely over my head, however, it sparked my interest in learning more. Secondly, thank you for talking out the science so that a layman can better understand the issues being debated. Lastly, as an observer of the debate, without understanding the content, what I observed from Dave was mostly personal character attacks, which is typically a sign of a losing argument. Dave sited research, but when faced with the challenge to explain the science to Tour, he never attempted it. He just made claims, held up the research and declared he was correct. I honestly think that Dave is probably very good at antagonizing, and has found a target that will bite. It is getting him a lot of views including mine. It’s a theory.

[@ThatisnotHair]

So do you guys have any better alternative theory that can lead to more new discoveries or invention to efficiently enhance our survival

[@chiefcliff]

Very clear. Well done.

[@josephthomas2226]

I love Jim Tour's passion. He just lays it out. I wish I had his knowledge. I listen to what brilliant guys like him say (I also listen to the skeptics). The fact that he is willing to engage with his critics (and most of them are never willing to engage with someone like Tour) says a lot.

[@georgbenad4436]

The truth will prevail, even if such "paper chemists" as Farina don't want to believe it.

[@jonathankim9502]

even as someone with only very very basic understanding of chemistry, I can totally understand what's being explained, what's going on in the "Origin of life" research world vs. Actual science world.. Thank you both Ph.Ds for this explanation.

[@hindsight2022]

Thank you dr. Meyer please more long form videos on abiogenesis... PLEASAAAAASE .

[@jameskostrewa9861]

Both you men have helped me more fully affirm my faith .. thank you !

[@mariofox8377]

I'm so glad for that. Always seek Truth and always defend yourself with Light. Truth and light make you untouchable.

[@ministry77]

Well done gentlemen. Thank you.

[@tiffanymagee2700]

Ah, my two favorite speakers! Thank you for the clarity you bring. Science needs more brave, brilliant people like you to get it back on track!!

[@Tanengtiong]

Thank our Heavenly Father for having experts like James Tour & Steve Meyer to refute atheist pseudo-sciences.

[@JessicaSunlight]

Glad James continues to speak. Despite Dave's wild imagination of what happened and how it did go he did not answer a single question. Literally not a question that was asked by James, that mess Dave came up later in his video after debate is quite a mess. How one can be so delusional is amazing. He still believes to this day peptides in water possible. But that a side since he is not the first schizophrenic ever walking the Earth. I always generally considered Christians having mental issues ( no offence its just what it is, reputation) but what Dave showed to me and his atheistic followers made me rethink who is more lost touch with the head. And I do not want to be diplomatically or soft talk here. When you literally watching debate live and you literally in denial of what is happening is quite at awe I was. Not that it matters much since truth prevails anyway. And James indeed correct on many things he speaks about Origin of Life. In due time when people will stop deny reality of mind they will understand that Mind is not something to be trusted as it cannot know truth from fiction and if you are using mind and identifying with it completely you can to yourself prove anything you want - you can prove earth is flat, you can prove evolution, you can prove bible is the best thing in the world or that Trump is the best human being on Earth or [insert your personal believes about life]. Mind has no limit to how delusional it can become, its the abyss that will make you in pain to get out if you cannot admit you are wrong. I'm happy James decided to engage, everybody needed to see the insanity of people clamming completely insane things on the internet and to see Dave's behavior in action as well. And hopefully learn that if you go unbalance as James went, it has no value to you or anyone else as it only plays to people who cannot stop do ad hominem and now on a quest to seek to overwrite what ad hominem even means (its about Dave again).

[@pound4pound380]

Hell Dave thinks men can be women and says science says so. What do you expect

[@henryb1555]

​@@pound4pound380I really wonder if he might take the transition one day soon....his behaviour indicates that it might do him some good.

[@John777Revelation]

*_'Nonsense remains nonsense, even when talked by world-famous scientists.'_* --- John C. Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University, internationally renowned speaker and author.

[@richardanders5549]

Please explain what you mean by nonsense. What is it that is incorrect in your opinion on each side?

[@tonymaurice4157]

@richardanders5549 abiogenesis is nonsense! even with all the Million dollar designed equipment clever manipulations in the lab they come nowhere close to life! You have hope and wishful thinking for your chemical Fantasy!

[@Lillaloppan]

Thank you from Sweden👍😊!

[@user-gy1pu3gq3d]

I am a Christian because I accept the historicity of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Origin of the universe and origin of life is nothing more than an intellectual curiosity to me, and I have no theological problem accepting a full naturalist explanation from t=0.000001 to now. It appears that Tour and Meyer have similar dispositions to mine, and Farina is the one who desires the science to be a certain way to comport with his worldview, and Farina can't help but impute his motives onto his opponents.

[@roberttormey4312]

Meyer and Tour should team up and address the difficulty that the various saltations in the fossil record present from an informational and synthetic chemistry perspective. The saltations have to be supported by new information and the information has to exist as molecules which must be created. The molecules have to anticipate the information and the information has to anticipate the saltation.

[@tonymaurice4157]

chemists cheat. They buy all their chemicals in pure form, Use a bunch of designed equipment. Highly manipulated processes, And even with all the Investigator interference they come nowhere close to life!!

[@sliglusamelius8578]

The whole fossil record is an argument against Evolution! The mainstream science community has been lying to us for 150 plus years. The fossil record screams out against the Evolutionary tree of life paradigm.

[@lynncomstock1255]

That issue is outside of their discussion of abiogenesis. Saltation obviously requires new genetic code that is very complex and therefore highly unlikely.

[@etiennerobert6462]

Please explain more in detail how a mix of both chirality in solution prevents assembly VS the solution with a single chirality.

[@rogerjamin1860]

What you did right Dr. Tour is when you said, "come to the board, Farina."

[@notfondajane8660]

Thank God for these men who understand, can explain, and demonstrate the truth about the impossibility of abiogenesis. Only life can reproduce life and that requires an original creation by something outside of our limited natural existence: God.

[@lieshtmeiser5542]

Very interesting discussion, thankyou.

[@John777Revelation]

*_“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind (i.e. Observer). This mind is the matrix of all matter.”_* Max Plank (the Father of Quantum Physics) ... It is curious how Max Plank's conclusions were so revolutionary in the field of science / physics (i.e. the immaterial (non-material) reality of nature and "the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind" as the ultimate force behind the fabric of reality). Yet, when microbiologists. biologists, geneticists, biochemists, other scientists, etc. come to the same conclusion (i.e. Intelligence / consciousness / mind is an integral and fundamental force behind the initial introduction and subsequent propagation of biological systems), they are rebuffed as being "unscientific". *Matter cannot exist without physical laws and constants first existing. Physical laws and constants cannot exist without mind / consciousness / intelligence first existing. Mind / consciousness / intelligence is Prime. Mind Exists Before Matter.*