What Went Wrong with THE HUNGER GAMES | Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes Explained

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Sorry this is late I just had a pretty horrible respiratory infection and the antibiotics also kicked me down. So much I didn’t touch on, like the similarities in Volumnia and Coriolanus from Hunger Games to the Shakespeare characters, talking about ballads and their specific use in the story, how Lucy Gray gets her name from a ballad while also becoming one. Who Tigris becomes in the later movies... There's a lot to dive into! Let me know your thoughts

[@Anynom]

Clearly you needed to do what so many franchises do and split the video into two parts.

[@KathleenMcGinnis]

Feel better!

[@AmandaTheJedi]

@@Anynom Look.. I considered it

[@BELLA-mf6hb]

Hope you're recovering well.

[@GlueGunsRoses]

Have you been hanging around southerners with thick accents? I swear you have a slight southern twang in this video. Maybe respiratory infections cause this. Or maybe I'm crazy. Hope you feel better, friend.

[@bejo2551]

In the original trilogy, one of the defining traits of Katniss and Snow’s relationship is this understanding that it’s pointless for them to lie to each other because the other could see right through it. I love how that contrasts Snow’s relationships in this book, where they’re all pretty much built on lies and facades.

[@Elizabeth-hc3mi]

My theory is that he sees Katniss's relationship with him as a reflection of his relationship with Dr. Gual. Although we see her as his mentor, Snow refers to her as "his greatest enemy" and "dangerous" She hurt Snow in awful, terrisble ways causing significant phycological damage (remember, she sent him to 12 for "a vaccination" to teach in a lesson and he almost committed suicide), but she ultimately helped his place in the world. Think what Snow says to Katniss "I want us to be friends, if not friends then allies" remember, he's not lying. By Catching Fire, similarties between Snow and Karniss are evident. They come from nothing in a broken home with a family to take care of, they both take part in a controversial Hunger Games that could incident rebellion, but it ultimately changes their social and financial situation. Snow in Catching Fire is trying to fix Katniss's game like Dr. Gual fixed his. Meanwhile, he pushes her to be the Capital's pet, grooming her to be an intsterment to "preserve humanity by keeping thebpeace" just like Gual did for him. And remember Gual had a thing for not lieing. Snow lied to her, and she almost killed his friend. Snow's mistake however was thinking Katniss was like him. Once he realised this mistake, he decided to get rid of her, hence the Quarter Quell.

[@Teemo6544]

@@Elizabeth-hc3mi Vacation or vaccination xD

[@kellharris2491]

@@Elizabeth-hc3mi Snow reminds me of that person who had an abusive parent and so he resolves to be a better parent to his child not realizing that he basically does the same thing or is just abusive in a different way. He feels so righteous telling himself that, at least he is not like his parent, and you should be grateful for that, but really he is just as bad.

[@vukkicos5688]

​@@Elizabeth-hc3mi I agree with everything, except the last part. She was, in fact, too simillar to Snow's younger self, which he realized quite early, and he, better than anyone, knew how problematic that could, and eventually would turn out to be. While Quarter Quell was partially about punishing Katniss, it was mostly about re-establishing dominance over the districts, which was honestly doomed idea from the start, but that is a topic for another discussion.

[@storytimewithyaz]

@@Elizabeth-hc3mi I totally get this. I think Snow recognizes that Katniss’ brain works in the same way as his does. He doesn’t need to put on a facade for her because he knows she will just get what he says. He can come to her unmasked. He also knows that many people don’t understand the way his brain works. Makes me believe both of them are INFJs. When INFJs experience trauma it is the way they handle it defines them. In that way we see Snow become someone like Hitler & Katniss become someone like Martin Luther King. You allow your circumstance to destroy you or propel you to positive change. INFJs will happily live in their head until they need to solve their problems in the real world. Katniss solves her problems by hunting & building up her resilience to trials. Snow solves his problems by control, however he is not actually looking at the facts & evidence presented to him. He refuses to do so & either puts on a performance (in his shadow functions) or remains in his head to confirm his own beliefs because sharing them would only cause people to see him with disgust & when you disgust people, they don’t trust you & you cannot gain power or control. Snow genuinely believes Katniss will do what he did. However, Katniss was raised with empathy, while the only symbol of empathy Snow has is Tigress who he sees as weak & unable to gain control for herself.

[@walkingexistentaldread3079]

my biggest issue with the movie is that a lot of people have walked away with the impression that losing lucy gray made snow into who he became. but the book’s internal monologue explicitly shows that he was steadily becoming that way and that’s what lost him lucy gray. the movie gives you the complete opposite impression.

[@KimNoAkasunaXJashin]

Interesting. In the movie she told him "trust before love" and her trust was clearly broken when he lied to her with the three deaths statement. So he clearly lost her because of his ways, and only realized that after the snake incident

[@walkingexistentaldread3079]

@@KimNoAkasunaXJashin in the book, i don’t even think he fully realizes why she left. he never explicitly connects the dots between her leaving and him lying to her about the third person. he believes it’s because she knows she’s the loose end.

[@kim3295]

I only watched the movie, but I thought it was laid out pretty clearly that he’s turning into a sneaky, conniving, opportunist. He didn’t love Lucy Gray. At all.

[@terminallumbago6465]

@@walkingexistentaldread3079I think it’s both. She realizes that she can’t trust him, and she’s also worried about being the last loose end, especially after he showed he was perfectly willing to betray those he supposedly cared about for his own gain.

[@Adrian-gk5vs]

Yes it honestly gave me whiplash. My friend read the book before we watched it but I didn’t and she said that the book did so much better showing the decline of Snow vs the movie

[@trinaq]

It's interesting that this prequel reveals that Lucy Gray wrote "The Hanging Tree", which makes it even more of a slap of a face to Snow when Katniss performs it.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I do comment on that!

[@paulsillanpaa8268]

It's an interesting commentary where the song's origins are so forgotten that Katniss sings it as a child without realizing it's significance, while those in authority instantly recognize the power...

[@Iamnoone989]

Also the fact that the song from all those years ago is sung by someone named katniss lol

[@humanwithaplaylist]

Yessss

[@Fire91ful]

The origin of the song didn't exist when she sang it. It was made up when she wrote the book after.

[@consuelomartinez2598]

I'm in a few fan groups and it's STAGGERING the amount of people that still see Snow as the victim of heartbreak and Lucy Gray as the awful awful meanie who betrayed him and broke his heart?!?! Like what??? I haven't read the book yet I only watched the movie and I feel like you can still see straight through him!! It's scary what people forgive for someone they find attractive

[@katharineeavan9705]

you only have to look at how many Killgrave girlies there were after s1 of Jessica Jones to see just how far some people take that. It's truly horrifying

[@onions831]

​@@katharineeavan9705 Uuugh the weird fandom around kilgrave and David Tennant at the time almost killed my love of Jessica Jones tbh, it was so effed

[@katharineeavan9705]

@@onions831 I wouldn't have minded so much if it was like "yeah, I know this is screwy and the character is irredeemable, I just have some pretty dark inclinations fantasy-wise", because you know what? Everyone has some effed up fantasies now and again. Personally I don't get it. Even though I think he's a very good looking man usually, Tennant is far too good of an actor and even looking at Killgrave made my skin crawl, but each to their own I guess. What really bothered me was that they didn't (want to) see the utter horror of what he did, they just saw a hot white guy with a tragic backstory and seemed to blame Jessica for what he did more than they blamed him, or at the very least saw her as less sympathetic and seemed to think she could have 'saved him' or something. And you can't even say it was framing or anything - the show did everything it could to avoid showing him in any kind of a positive light. People just straight up decided to champion the explicitly sadistic ab*ser because he's pretty.

[@KristySki]

I knew that was going to happen and one of the big reasons why I didn't care to see the movie. I also just don't care about Snow. I don't care WHY he is the way he is. He's a disgusting narcissist, that's honestly all we need to know. But I knew once I saw the previews for the movie people were going to somehow forgive him or say "Well now I understand...."

[@sammiemm9397]

@@KristySki It's seems to be kind of inevitable when it comes to these kind of "villain origin" stories though doesn't it? People will always try to find something to hang onto cuz well you can't walk a mile in a person's shoes or in this case movie and not have some degree of empathy.

[@kartkaesque]

I think there should have been more focus on Snow and Tigris' relationship. Like how they come from the same background and basically wanted similar things but how their actions completely change them.

[@LadyScaper]

Yes!!!! I would have liked to see his reaction to realizing Tigress had to turn to sex work to help them survive.

[@laurakoby806]

Yes! Her character was so intriguing. And, she actually appears in the other movies.

[@deviantmoore9744]

How did her face become like that 60+ years later? Just extensive plastic surgery?

[@kartkaesque]

@@deviantmoore9744 yes Body modifications are a huge thing in Capitol. I think she got addicted to it and went extreme.

[@laurakoby806]

@@deviantmoore9744 I'm pretty sure that's what it is. Capitol Fashion got more and more extreme so she pushed it to the limit with what she did. There's different theories as to why. Some people guessed that she did it to make herself less attractive to kind of repel predators or as a reaction to her existing trauma. Other people said she did it to kind of push away the other Capitol people, hoping they would find her repulsive so she had an excuse to back away from their activities without putting a target on her back. Or the whole thing could be her feeling constrained so she's expressing herself the only way she has. It seems like a sensible character arc.

[@ScarlettAstor]

District 12 being in Appalachia, and having such a deep relationship with music is one of my favourite through lines in the Hunger Games. Appalachian folk musics is sort of proto-country music, but also one of the places where old english/scots/irish folk ballads were preserved. The way that the Covey's songs are preserved from before the Capitol and Districts, and Katniss's father passes her The Hanging Tree, in turn preserving pieces of Lucy Gray.

[@RomaniScientist]

I agree

[@JC_Cali]

And this is my favourite aspects of European culture - their folky, funky music! Wish more people would connect with that than racist supremacy..

[@RomaniScientist]

@JC_Cali I mean us Romani & Traveller ethnicities that came to Appalachia still keep a lot of traditions going. But we're also some of the world's most hated ethnicities

[@mikankitsune0440]

As an Appalachian girl, I genuinely loved seeing the accent and music style in a major film.

[@KaiInMotion]

So much of the book was the horror of not only knowing who Snow truly is because we've seen his future from the original trilogy, but also the fact that we're seeing him constantly have insight into other people and scenarios but draw the absolute wrong conclusions from them, watching him continuously be misunderstood by people around him like characters in a horror movie: you can scream at them all you want not to go into that creepy basement, but they can't hear you.

[@j0hncarp]

The best way to emulate Snow's internal narcissism is to have a monologue same as Patrick Bateman in American Psycho. It'll be weird though not sure if it will work. Probably not

[@JNDReacts]

This is also what they do with Joe in the show You.

[@alexdavis360]

wish they had done that

[@absolutelynotellen]

"I live in the Capitol. My name is Coriolanus Snow."

[@farkasmactavish]

Hollywood seems allergic to internal monologue, though.

[@mariaskabardonis8353]

I think it could have worked if they didn’t over do it. I think they do a good job with it on You

[@annienunyabiz6627]

The single biggest flaw in the movie was it's inability to truly portray Snow as the narcissist he was. They tried to make him sympathetic instead of leaning into the flawed main character, just like they did with Artemis Fowl. Like Snow never was nice for niceness's sake. He was nice to get something in return. He did not love Lucy; he "loved" her. His inner dialogues never once made you believe he ever truly cared for Lucy; he always saw her as property that he was owed because he's a Snow, and Snows deserve whatever they want.

[@caesar98]

I think a snow narration would help some parts of the movie to really see what goes on in his mind. I know the whole "show don't tell" but it feels like we lack so much of his twisted narcissistic inner monologue. Like whispers you hear of his mind racing and the disconnect between his actions and intent behind them. Like calling Sejanus his brother, that's purely for selfish reasons

[@rexibhazoboa7097]

You can show through narration. The fact that some directors need to be told this is concerning. Just like how a first person POV novel shows the information (usually) or finds an interesting way to deliver exposition, film also have the same ability and more. It’s not one or the other, it’s both. You can have a narrator over your film saying certain discreet things and the viewer will read/listen between the lines to get what is really being said.

[@pasaniusventris4113]

yeah, the way that he thinks tigris "invited abuse" just by her appearance, how he hated his grandmother's singing, it's missing. i didn't get that from his performance at all, so all his insanity is not shown well.

[@caesar98]

@@pasaniusventris4113 oh I hated that part, how he could be so cruel and heartless towards Tigris the sweetest most pure hearted person in the book. I hated him from then on in the book, he just reminded me too much of a certain narcissist I've encountered in my life and I really felt Dean Highbottom's "you survived him" line

[@masonguthrie1257]

I mean while I agree we miss a big part of snow’s character I kind of love that the people that only watch the movie see only what snow puts as a front and as we have seen by a lot of people’s reactions he somewhat successful tricks them until the end.

[@wompwomp1015]

on a real note, I’m legally obligated to demand amanda’s retrospective analysis of the original series

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Some day I’m sure! I’ve been going back through the books after doing the movies this past month

[@grizzlygoldman]

I support this stance

[@Lonewolf-wm7pe]

Oh please! the books hit so hard of the o.g trilogy. They had no business being that good for "teen" fiction.

[@chloedubisch7861]

⁠@@AmandaTheJedi I’d like to vote for this retrospective analysis too. Especially since I think that you’re giving the first movie too much credit. I think without Katniss’ inner monologue a lot of viewers were confused by her actions. I’ve heard it said that a lot of people just saw a typical romance playing out, not realizing Katniss was playing a survival game. Makes for interesting analysis and cool comparisons with the prequel. These actors are wonderful

[@dwdillydally]

oooh, yes!

[@timpage9424]

My issue is that you get Snow's decent in the book because you're in his jealous narcissistic head the whole time. So when he's hunting Lucy Grey at the end it makes sense. Here you can tell he's conflicted but you never get the same cruel selfish vibe that you get from him in the book. So I think it worked best because I had read the book and knew the context. I can't imagine what people who read the book were thinking. Also Tom Blythe, god bless him, is just too hot to fully hate. 😂

[@nailinthefashion]

I didn't read before viewing and I was knew he's a selfish beep so I was just glad Lucy caught on. When she said wasn't made of sugar he should have realized and opened up but the insecurity jumped out

[@barbedwire9975]

Yeah I had never read the book and I read a ton of comments about how “oh I read the book so I knew snows character the entire time. If you didn’t read the book that’s your bad” which like no? It shouldn’t be a requirement to read the source material for an adaptation. If a key part of the story is missed out on then the adaptation has failed at that part. It was obvious that snow was kind of conflicted, but it seemed conflicted between good and evil not just straight up lying. And there’s several parts of the film which just don’t make sense for snow as a lying manipulator. If you get the internal monologue making that conflict evident I could 100% see the story working but without it the film basically just feels inconsistent in how it wants snow to be presented.

[@jonarysrodriguez287]

I haven’t read the books. I thought that when he was looking for her he was first trying to find her and lure her back to him, but once he realized it was too late and that she didn’t trust him anymore, his goal shifted from trying to find her to trying to hunt her, because she had now become a loose end.

[@JNDReacts]

I never saw Snow as decent in the book.

[@dragonslastfyl2203]

nah his okay on the looks department.

[@Ch1lton_A]

I’ll tell you what was wrong with it: it didn’t have enough cowbell during Rachel Zegler’s singing scenes.

[@yc0995]

And not enough Hunter serving fashion

[@nailinthefashion]

I'm about to cow your bell for that one honestlay

[@SM-BSW]

Truer words have never been spoken.

[@Sue_Me_Too]

She... It had... WHAT?!?

[@darbymichelle]

I got a fever… and the only prescription is more cowbell

[@JNDReacts]

40:47 In Snow’s mind I’m sure he believes he loved Lucy Gray more than anyone and that she nearly destroyed him, but I think the thing he loved most was himself, and in the end that is what destroys him. In this story his ambition and sense of entitlement destroyed any potential for good he had left. And throughout the trilogy his tendency towards becoming obsessed with something-as described in the opening pages of TBOSAS-which in this case was Katniss, caused him to lose sight of the bigger picture and allowed Plutarch and Coin to beat him.

[@violett5418]

Thats what i thought too! I havent read the book yet but the movie stayed in my mind SO LONG after it ended and i feel like.. Coryo definitely did not love lucy, maybe just liked her a little bit, but he definitely THOUGHT he loved her or something… like, i like her now so i should be doing this… while at the same time really only doing things that favoured his own ambition. Like he acted according to his own priorities all along, while trying to convince himself and others he’s doing the right thing on the surface… purely on the surface. honestly getting this much from the movie itself made me think the movie was really good and i cant wait to read it bc i keep hearing its SO much better

[@Egan-pop]

He loved what she brought or could bring to his table.

[@mariannestrgzr9374]

I think Coryo genuinely did love Lucy, at least a little bit. But I think he loved the control and power he had over her during the games more than loved her, and he wasn’t necessarily able to see the distinction between the two. He convinced himself he loved her, he believed it.

[@amara560]

Love the character study in the book and thought the movie was a fine translation, though I did miss seeing more of Tigris and Coryo's relationship. Should have been made into two movies or a mini series imo, but didn't expect that with how the book was received.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Yeah I don't genuinely think a split movie would be the full solution - it just needs a litttllleee bit more than what's here for something that already feels long at times and a bit more work to get us in Coryo's head. But yes, DEFINITELY could have used more Tigris. Hunter brought her to life so perfectly.

[@faye4930]

I was SOOO sad when they cut out clemensia. Clemensia is so important to snow in the book, shes his one real genuine friend, and what he sees happen to her and the state she returns him scars him for the entire book, and its what he reflects on the most when he thinks about what will happen to his family if he gets caught defecting with Sejanus and that entire nuance is lost completley

[@lolli_popples]

THEY CUT OUT CLEMENSIA?? (I haven’t seen the movie lol- only read the book) I thought she played into the theme that the capitol didn’t actually care about their children either really well.

[@faye4930]

@@lolli_popples she never gets mentioned again after getting bit, pretty hinted at she dies and is yeah just never brought up again

[@lolli_popples]

@@faye4930 That’s so sad! I loved her during the games.

[@beetlebob4675]

I'm at the third part now. Had to smoke a butt. I'm so disappointed that Clemensia didn't show up again. I was looking forward to that specifically, among other things they cut. Will be unpausing shortly.

[@singenstattatmen5096]

And even apart from her importance for his arc, I really don't understand why they changed the scene with the snakes the way they did. In the book, Coriolanus takes out a paper from the snake tank first and he's fine, so Clemmy has every reason to think she will be, too. Only after she's attacked does Gaul explain to Corio why it happened. In the movie, Gaul has only Clemmy do it and explains everything before, so she should be fully aware what's going to happen and her reaching her arm in there is basically suicide out of stubbornness. Like, why on earth do movies unnecessarily change things and make characters seem a lot dumber than they originally were? Just can't wrap my head around that odd choice.

[@rayabear460]

12:57 Katniss is a fighter forced to perform, Lucy Grey is a performer forced to fight, and Snow is a Fighter Choosing to perform

[@MissBotz]

I want to add that we do actually "read" about Lucy Gray in the Hunger Games. Katniss mentions that District 12 has had 2 victors but we only ever meet Haymitch. I caught this on my reread of both Songbirds and the original trilogy.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Yeah I just meant by name directly

[@christisd7679]

she also haunts the narrative in the songs , in katniss name , in katniss mentioning a home in the meadow in catching fire that we know is the same house the coven went to - it’s brilliant truly

[@AloneDoggKilla]

In the book shows more that Snow had a chance to become better, and having Snow explaining the songs in the Audible of the book actually shows how he doesn't like music

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Yeah I love when he hits a point and realizes that he might not actually like music that much aha

[@charmainen8475]

It also doesn’t help that whenever Snow did “good” things he was punished but whenever he did evil things he was consistently rewarded. From his point of view why bother being good when being cruel gets you the life you want in the end

[@laffyraffy407]

Yeah, Gaul really does just push him further and further into his own worse traits and beliefs, because they're the same as her own. As Amanda points out, if Highbottom had mentored Snow instead of hating him for having his father's traits, well... Snow probably wouldn't have become a GOOD person, but maybe a slightly better one.

[@atp8108]

A really interesting thing I saw someone being up was how the prequel gives a lot of Snow’s actions in the trilogy more context. Snow feeling that Katniss deceived Peeta in the first games the way Lucy Gray deceived him. The way he taunts Katniss about kissing Gale, the boy from home, because he was jealous of Billy Taupe - also the boy from home. And in Mockingjay, Snow believes he is helping Peeta see how destructive and untrustworthy Katniss is when he brainwashes him, because Snow too was unable to trust Lucy Gray.

[@TheKeyser94]

The irony is that when Katniss finally would come out of her stoic shell, Snow break Peeta, actually what he say to her wasn't a lie, but Katniss was in her shell never actually displaying any kind of emotion or letting her guard down, and when she finally come out from it, Peeta believes that all was a lie, well, it was a lie in the first movie and book, now watching the movies again, this is not a "love triangle" per se, there is no melodrama, in the first movie Katniss was in her shell and stoic, in the second is when she finally take a decision, and the third is confirming that decision, sadly for her, Snow break Peeta mind, something that he never recover entirely, something worse than his abusive childhood, I never understand how Peeta could be so emotional having an abusive childhood, that would have made him more a recluse than Katniss was.

[@mumbledmeatballs5629]

Damn I never thought about it like this I love this take.

[@z2yn]

Never thought of it, that's so damn interesting. I saw Snow being similar to Katniss (both start of as being morally gray, coming of as judgemental and cynical at times) - with the main difference between them being that Katniss cares about everyone other than herself and wants to survive to keep others safe; Snow is more self-centered. But also that Snow and Peeta had similarities - they're both highly charismatic and know what to say; they also lie very easily, with Peeta of course being more honest actually (there was a post about it). Also both are entranced by the singing of the girl they fall for - Peeta loves Katniss since early childhood, Snow falls for Lucy almost at the reaping. Also the nice thing is that Snow is annoyed by his grandma's singing at the beginning, tries to think he likes music - and does not. Katniss is brought up singing with her dad and sister, comes to a point when singing isn't really on her mind and it starts creeping back with Rue & Prim and the revolution.

[@kellharris2491]

@@TheKeyser94 Yes. But I think Peeta is different from Katniss in that he is an extravert vs Katniss the loner. Peeta's childhood made him want to connect with others particularly Katniss. But Katniss's pain made her turn inward instead. This is just a difference in personality. The both love and feel deeply but express that differently. She keeps her thoughts to herself and her feelings to herself. Often it's so deep that she doesn't even know what she is feeling. Peeta is almost the exact opposite wearing his heart on his sleeve and very open about his feelings. Especially for Katniss. I still remember in the first book Peeta is crying while saying goodbye to his family and Katniss is trying so hard to keep everything in for fear people will think she is weak. And she is genuinely surprised that Peeta is showing such emotion. Peeta is also so very good with people he was even able to get in with the careers for awhile. He is a people person. That's his personality. But I think those moments were Katniss does show her emotions and feelings are so powerful just because of how rare it is.

[@TheKeyser94]

@@kellharris2491 My issue is that most abusive children are introvert, they not want to everyone else see their wounds or show their feelings for the same reason as Katniss because they think is a sign of weakness, they always come out for a excuse for their abuser, so Peeta being overly emotional make no sense, he would be way more introvert than Katniss and be a little rough around the edges, he being a good speaker is self explanatory, children and teenager that suffer abuse then to end being a little manipulative, to hide their wound, is surprising that with all the strength that Peeta have he is not overly violent, he could throw Gale if he wanted to, but he never did, having compassion with teenager that suffer abuse is rare, most of them want to escape that situation somehow or end being as violent as their aggressors, it would make more sense that Peeta go out to the woods offend in his free time to be alone and escape of his house for a while, but then again, Peeta have brothers, he must have been feeling protective towards them before they die and take all the abuse to protect them.

[@minnies-verse]

While the movie isn’t perfect, it does have a degree of re-watchability that I can’t quite pinpoint… coming from someone who read the book before watching the movie, I think the directors and screenwriters did a great job of condensing the source material to only what was absolutely necessary. Though the movie was good, it seems everyone agrees it could’ve been better with a longer screen time. My personal theory is that given the mixed reactions to the premise and the downfall of YA in general, the studio didn’t want to risk it.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I assume that's why as well. It's not QUITE enough material for two really solid movies, so making one was definitely the right call it just felt lacking after first watch but I agree, it is something I've enjoyed having on again while working on this

[@jankreft6753]

​@AmandaTheJedi I do think tho, that a three part limited series would've been the right way to go 😅

[@benamisai-kham5892]

​@@jankreft6753a mini series like Stephen King used to make in the 90s woulda been perfect

[@tatehildyard5332]

Devils advocate, where would splitting it have made sense. The first 2/3rds are what’s loaded with all of the cool characters, franchise iconography and the actual games. I think a movie just about Snow and Lucy Gray in District 12 would have been a lot harder to sell to an audience since like I said, everything exciting and familiar is in that first half.

[@jankreft6753]

@tatehildyard5332 the book is already organised in three parts. Euch with it's own dramatic structure and climax (somewhat at least). So a split in three episodes for a TV show would've workt rather well, with each part being like 50 to 60 minutes long.

[@martidodger7106]

What I liked most about the books, is that through Snow it shows how easily people can be radicalized through propaganda into standing by and enabling horrors and violence. Snow isn’t humanized but you understand his anger, his pride, and his obsession with gaining power and how it leaves him susceptible to the pro-Hunger Games/Capital rhetoric. There are moments in the book where I was like, “omigod, you are so *close* to understanding why the Hunger Games and the subjugation of the districts is bad”, only for him to steer right down the path towards Dr. Gaul…and then you realize, no he’s *always* been this way. Lucy Gray was a distraction, a way for Snow to justify his later actions, however, he was always going to go down that path. You see his clear cognitive dissonance, the mental gymnastics he does to tell himself that he’s doing the right thing. An example being, him trying to make a case that the Covey is neither District or Capital, so therefore he can be with Lucy Gray and she can come to the Capital to become rich and famous. He’s not trying to save LG or the Covey, he just wants to have her and keep his status. But also, he continues to dehumanize the citizens of the district, saying they deserve to be punished by the hunger games. In one breath he’ll praise Tigress, but then will look down on her when the possibility that she’ll need to turn to sex work for them to survive. Instead of being angry at the Capital who has done nothing but perpetuate the violence and villainize the districts who are powerless and suffering, he falls in line with their teachings. Even if he escaped with LG to 13, his paranoia and need for control would likely have him claiming power in 13, where he will still do terrible things. He’s kinda written like the protag in Catcher in the Rye, Snow is charismatic and engaging that you the reader can easily be lead by his lies/twisted ideas, that you want to give him a pass, only to realize at the end that, no, Snow is a narcissistic monster who successfully and brutally took power. And that’s the sad thing about the movie, you don’t get that nuance of what the author is trying to tell you about how easily it is for “civilized people” to justify abject cruelty. If you haven’t read the book, I highly recommend listening to the audio book. It really adds to the immersion of the reader standing by as Snow did to allow the Hunger Games and the violence to be packaged as a spectacle instead of the horror that it is.

[@hannahhannah7002]

I think it loses a lot of Snow's blatent manipulative nature. A lot of his cheating in the book is very subtle and it very much demonstrates that Snow has no values beyond that of his own immediate success. I think in the movie his cheating is too obvious and it loses a lot of his subtlety. And the whole "Snow changes his mind" at the climax of the movie, they miss it entirely. They make it that its a reaction to her betrayal rather than a reveal that he doesnt actually trust or love her as a person but as an ideal and a pocession

[@amandamoore7512]

From a narrative stance, having Snow be from a disgraced Capitol legacy bankrupted by the war perfectly encapsulates the theme of Facism/The Capitol telling everyone to *look down* when placing blame for their problems instead of *looking up* . Sejanus being a District kid who became a New Money Capitol family provides him not only the opposite trajectory but the firsthand knowledge that the only way you can go *up* is to destroy those *below* you for the benefit of those at the *top* . The Snow family was pretty *high up* until those at *the bottom* demanded better/change from *the top* and considering history is written by the victorious, he came to blame those who demanded basic rights and decency instead of those who would rather *KILL* and *DIE* than give their people those rights. The Capitol told Snow all his problems were the fault of District citizens and when Lucy, the epitome of freedom and wildness, the *mockingjay* herself chose to fly away from him because *he* wanted to trap her in a cage just as much as the Capitol did he took that as a personal bias confirmation that the person who is so rebellious of everything the Capitol she is a nomad represents every single District and their defiance to the Capitol. The moment Lucy Gray *VERY RIGHTFULLY* left Coriolanus and denied every fiber of his bootlicking existence, President Snow was born

[@MadamMelonMeow]

It’s really interesting that this book tells us Tigress is the cousin of Snow, because this is the same woman who helped the rebels when they stormed the capital, giving Katniss and the others sanctuary. In the end, his own family betrayed him.

[@money1137]

Rachel Zieglers song performance really surprised me throughout the movie. I saw a video that they did live takes during filming and you can definitely tell. I had a hard time picturing how the songs would sound when reading the books and I think they were absolutely perfect !

[@rexibhazoboa7097]

I listened to Maiah on KZbin who created her own interpretations of all the songs in the novel. Those fit so perfectly that I found myself unconsciously comparing the movie’s version to hers. I think her name is Maiah Twaine or something similar.

[@money1137]

@@rexibhazoboa7097 oh awesome I’ll take a watch !!

[@TheSimpleMan454]

I couldn't stand her affected pseudo-twang...

[@farahwashindroy6346]

her acting feels more like Disney plus teen show, so cringe. Also the obvious fake accent was such a turn off

[@lunarae2266]

@@TheSimpleMan454saaame! It felt like she was trying too hard

[@scottietrademark]

I feel bad for the fictional woman that Snow ended up marrying and his fictional kid(s) so he could get a granddaughter. I cant imagine how abusive he probably was. It just kinda dawned on me that he probably wasn't a good husband/father

[@Aurem15]

In the book after Lucy flees he thinks how his wife shall be an airhead, someone who wouldn't question him. Something like that.

[@z2yn]

The book said he'd marry that one girl who disliked him as much as he did. So essentially, she only got on board for the power and didn't care about him. We don't know much about their kids and grandkids, the movie makes Snows granddaughter out to be an absolute sweetheart.

[@beetlebob4675]

The fact that his granddaughter did her hair just like Katniss must have been a slap in the face towards his participation in the showman aspect of the games, and just how successful his applications were. Lol

[@giuliac9735]

The fact that he knew what tigris had to do for them, and then forced that on the victors knowing they would do the same for their loved one is horrifying....😢

[@marie-pierrobillard9554]

I think that through his facial expression, Tom Blyth did a fantastic job at conveying the emotions that you could read in Coryo's thoughts though. Like his possessiveness over Lucy Gray, when they're at the Hob and he sees her for the first time since the games. You see him happy that she's there, within reach, that she can be his again when she looks at him and he catches her. But the second the crowd starts cheering, the smile fades from his face as if he just realized that in here, she's not *just* his. (And the way he seemed ready to beat Billy Taupe to death, if no one had stopped him, when he tried to touch Lucy Gray .) I also felt that the scene in the forest, when he holds the scarf and smells it, it might be me reading too much into it but I felt like I was seeing Coryo trying to find something to hold on to. His mother's scent that comforted him. But then that wasn't there anymore. Lucy Gray's scent maybe. Wasn't there anymore. All that was left was the mud, the one thing he cherished literally run through the dirt. And it felt like he just realized that the people who cared for him and whom he loved (or cared for at least) abandoned him in a way. And that he couldn't control that, people leaving. And that's one thing that pushed him over the edge.

[@evgeniyaseminenko8594]

Yeah they found a fantastic character actor to portray Snow, shame some people don't see it because he is "too pretty". Kinda fits the message of the books tho

[@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462]

@@evgeniyaseminenko8594 I could never understand how people place the looks of a person over their actions like were not paying attention to anything actually happening in the movie? Like a lot of people overlooked the emotions and expressions Blyth showed throughout the movie and just criticized Snow for looking "too pretty."

[@z2yn]

also people making it sound like old Snow is ugly. By god, Donald Sutherland looks well for his age and it made love Snow even more. I frankly enjoy good villains and Snow is an excellent one.

[@paigetaylor704]

Lucky flicker man was a hero in this. He added a level of humour that was perfectly distracting and impossible not to laugh at when you’re watching people slaughter each other and you as a viewer laughing realise how easy it is to dehumanise and compartmentalise the game. Underrated impact and truely brilliant performance

[@winterblume8000]

Wow, I think it's really fitting that Snow's ideas are somewhat based on Rousseau. Rousseau didn't really care about the lives of children either. He put all of his own children into orphanages, which meant almost certain death back then. And then he wrote a book about how you are supposed to raise and educate children. In that book, he writes about how he would raise the perfect son, hypothetically of course.

[@kaamn1829]

wait, what, fr? so rousseau put his own children in orphanages? and everybody just let him, or what? where did you hear this, I have to know more, that's batshit.

[@BrokensoulRider]

It's a lot like how single unmarried, angry women/men try to write self-help books to be the perfect person on the market for someone. :)@@kaamn1829

[@MarieLehleitner]

​@kaamn1829 It's on his Wikipedia page, actually. Dude's life was WILD. Basically the gist of it is that he hooks up with Therese, who gives birth to 4-5 of his kids. Therese was a seamstress who supported her large and lazy family (siblings and mom). He and Therese's mom persuade her to give up all their kids to a foundling hospital/home. Therese's mom doesn't want the kids to get the resources she was sponging off them. Rousseau claims he's too poor for kids (despite actually being rich), but he tells someone later the real reason he made his gf (yes, he only married her 23 years into their relationship in a fake ceremony!) give all their kids up was because he didn't want her and her poorly-educated family to raise his kids to be equally stupid or badly behaved, so sending them to a foundling hospital meant they'd have a better upbringing. Even more insanely, we know this because he told on himself by writing about it in his autobiography (btw he only went to the hospital to ask about his son 10 years later, and they had no info). In conclusion, Rousseau was a condescending MFer who was somehow charming yet made enemies everywhere he went.

[@mppi]

@@kaamn1829many kids in orphanages still had living parents, so it wasn't out of the ordinary to send your children there

[@kaamn1829]

@@MarieLehleitner wth that's so wild, I agree with his theories, but I don't think I can take him seriously anymore, lol. thanks!

[@raicrush]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who liked it but wasn't 100% on the movie. Rachel's voice is STUNNING but her southern accent was boarding on a joke and I wanted so much more from Snow and Tigris! Such interesting and deep backgrounds that didn't get enough love. I wish this movie had been a 4 or 5 episode show with 1hr per ep. I think we could have gotten a lot more from it like we did with Squid Game. Still enjoyed the movie! I just wish there was more for each character!

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I think this COULD be done in like, 3.25 to 3.5 hours really well with a bit of reworking to get us in his head more. It's definitely in an awkward in between where the material is a bit too much for a standard movie unless we start cutting more on the top half, and a bit too little for a proper mini series unless you start adding things. An extended cut would be cool

[@raicrush]

@@AmandaTheJedi That would work as well! I don't know how many people would have gone to see a 3.5hr Hunger Games movie (tbh I would being a feral fan of the OGs). An extended cut would be amazing to get more of what was left out

[@genericwhiteguy2910]

She wasn’t doing a southern accent but an appalachian accent. I found her accent pretty accurate to one.

[@bluebay1031]

@@genericwhiteguy2910 Same

[@Icycold21]

@@raicrushthey did have a 3.5 hour cut of the film but the test audience who saw the movie early said the movie was too long and they didn’t like it being so long and so they had to cut it to 2.5 hrs so the general audience wouldn’t Be too upset.

[@phoebelam5761]

I lowkey expected to hear the magic phrase more "Snow Lands on Top"

[@hannahedmond4388]

I think Sejenus remembers a very different life in the districts because he was so young… he idolizes his version of district 2 before the war when the rules were less strict. I also don’t think she set the snake trap and it was purely accidental, also when she was “shot” it was her reaping dress so it’s pretty obviously a hallucination.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I don't know if he idealizes it so much as he feels bad that they didn't help other people. District 2 is already one of the better off districts but I think it's more guilt from him to have gotten out. I did go back and check though, she's not wearing the reaping day dress when he thinks he shot her through the trees, just something with polka dots - I think he hits the tree then something hits her by the look of it

[@shouldbewritig]

There’s two things that come to mind for me with Sejenus, 1) like Amanda already replied, he feels his family should’ve helped others more, and I think 2) the Capitol has always had a way of putting on airs and being all about the way you present yourself to the world that seems pretty unique to the Capitol, though we haven’t gotten a good look into the richer districts. I think he dislikes that and maybe longs for a sense of community without the pretense that may have existed in 2. In the book his district rejected him because his family essentially sold out so there might have been a closer knit atmosphere there during/before the war when he was a child.

[@JNDReacts]

Yeah, if she was gonna set a snake trap you’d think she’d use a venomous one. In the book it was even more clearly a coincidence, since Snow just finds a scrap of the scarf on a bush, and when he reaches for it a snake jumps out at him from the bush.

[@XmunkeypieX]

you are wrong. go back and scrub through it :)

[@AmandaTheJedi]

@@JNDReacts I feel like I should have said he assumed she set a snake trap in that movie. I feel the movie leaves it more ambiguous and in the book he's just completely losing his mind at this perceived betrayal that didn't happen.

[@ImTMZ]

I'm crazy interested to see Snow's inner thoughts strictly towards Peeta. He's pretty outward in his thoughts for Katniss but he's gotta be just screaming in his head at Peeta like, "YOU IDIOT. THERE WILL BE OTHER GIRLS. DON'T EAT THE BERRIES. I'LL TEACH YOU EVERYTHING I KNOW"

[@jasminewilliams1673]

They could have had him use a journal that the audience could have experienced his “ head voice”

[@Idontexisthihi001]

I like to imagine Francis Lawrence still having intense flashbacks of the reception of Mockingjay and REFUSING to split this movie in 2

[@JackoDaGreat]

I love the novels ability to remind you what an irredeemable asshole Snow is the moment you start to feel bad for him. I also want to share that I found it hilarious that one of Snow’s friends in the capital who was more on the anti-games side is named Lysistrata. That’s the name of an Ancient Greek play where the title character leads the women of Greece in a sex strike to end a war.

[@bairdsnow]

They should release the extended edition. It’s 3 hours and 37 minutes long - someone on Twitter has watched it, the tweet blew up so I’m sure many people know who it is but I’m not going to say their user because they’ve already faced harassment from people. They got to watch the extended because they have a friend in the film industry who is a screener, it is currently not out to the public. Here are some things that were in the extended: 1) Snow and Lucy gray kiss before going into the games (probably in the arena) - they also kiss at the lake (in and out of it) the one in the meadow which was in the theatrical is also there so that means they cut out a few of their kisses. 2) The forest scene is much longer, he spends a lot longer hunting for her. They cut it down in the theatrical. He said it goes on for quite a long time. 3) There is more sejanus and Coriolanus scenes in general. We see them training together briefly I believe. Although not for long according to the guy who has watched it. 4) None of the songs sung by Lucy gray are cut down they’re all full length. 5) There is a scene between Coriolanus and the parents of Sejanus. They interact. - Unfortunately no more Clemensia, I was hoping in the extended she might have more scenes since she became Dr Gauls experiment but they just cut that all out which is disappointing. She doesn’t appear again like in the theatrical. There’s probably more, but the guy can’t rewatch it again and he said he hasn’t seen the theatrical. if there was more information I would include more but this is all that I know for now. He also said that it’s fully edited every single scene is rendered and finished so I’m really hoping Lionsgate will release it.

[@Sarurah]

I love the new cannon that Caesar Flickerman is a nepo baby 😂

[@ksawerystan]

There is some added line, that Lucky calls down his booking for a family dinner in a restaurant, because of his involvement in the games, he mentions there: that he booked it for two adults and a child. Maybe this child was Caesar

[@petiteange08]

Love this analysis! My friend was talking about the sweet innocent young Snow who became evil after he was betrayed by Lucy. I was like what are you talking about???

[@a.songb1rd]

this is a small pet peeve of mine but thank u for calling her lucy gray & not just lucy

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I might have a slip up at some point but I did really try to make sure because that is her whole first name aha

[@hockeygrrlmuse]

That was the one piece of Missouri heritage my grandma kept, she hated being called Mary and constantly corrected people about it actually being Mary Ruth

[@anomaliecosmos]

"We are just missing so much from not being inside Coriolanus' head" is NOT the phrase i expected to hear - but you (and Collins to begin with) won me over, honestly.

[@petrosinella]

It really made me mad that district 12's mayor deliberately sent Lucy Gray to her death because his daughter was jealous of her. What a horrible family! I wasn't upset at all about Mayfair's death. At least the Capitol did one thing right in the following Hunger Games by sending reps to select the tributes.

[@EmeraldRich]

I just want to see how Tigris became a Tigress.

[@sarahellis6703]

I had a hard time seeing how Snow went from the guy at the end of this movie to the dictator he becomes, maybe I'll have to check out the book

[@AmandaTheJedi]

That was my biggest issue with the movie and I think the book adds SO much just from being in his head and knowing he's already so much in that mindset

[@nailinthefashion]

I think showing Lucy catching on was enough of a reminder that this isn't a love story and he's not a good person but the film could have ended on the next hunger games and him being heinous and I wouldn't have minded

[@katherinealvarez9216]

It's hard to get a young actor to make us believe that one day he'll be Donald Sutherland.

[@money1137]

I imagined a lot of people felt that way when I left the theatre, I also read the book and feel some parts were so confusing for people who hadn’t read it

[@eroe2742]

He didn't change at all, that's the thing. The movie just can't explain it properly. His desperation to be on top, to not be thought down on, and to he successful. Like it's all consuming in the book, even if he is thinking of Lucy gray, a part of his narrative always centers around how she can help him.

[@lauramichelle6976]

I heard a theory that Dr Gaul set the bombs in the arena to both make it more interesting and rile the capitol up in support of the games. OR highbottom did it in an attempt to stop the games And I think both of those make more sense than rebels actually getting into the capitol again, especially with how easily Marcus was found it feels unlikely they got in and managed to plant a bomb that coincidentally went off when capitol kids were in there. I don’t know if there’s enough text evidence to support it, esp since it’s claimed to be rebels anyway, but I like that explanation more 😅

[@Azayth103]

Ohhh Dr Gaul would make a lot of sense! She was a very big fan of killing every single tribute with her snakes after all to leave no survivors and punish the districts, maybe the show runners would have been in on that and that's why it took so long for Lucy Gray to be declared the winner!

[@jamiemorgan6490]

just read the book and to me it’s was pretty obvious that it’s the capitol that set the bombs. like glaringly obvious, i didn’t realise there was any doubt that it was them😂. it’s clear that sejanus was allowed to sneak into the arena to bury marcus’ body

[@JNDReacts]

My favorite thing about this prequel, both the book and the movie, is getting more world-building and lore for this series. And while some people don’t like the Maude Ivory theory, I personally love it! I love how it would explain all of the things that Katniss’s father knew, which was instrumental in her surviving both games. And how no one else in 12 seemed to know about the cabin and the lake.

[@shadycatz85]

i have to disagree about the end. i think it was done brilliantly, and i immediately could tell just by the emotions and few questions that she realised he killed his friend, and he knew she knew, and she knew if she stayed, she'd soon be dead too. i have never read the book. i think tiktok and social media has done a lot of damage in regard to subtle story telling, or having to think about a potentially open ended piece of media.

[@y3y364]

right!

[@grasshopperye3593]

I saw the movie and thought it was great--then I read the book and now, I do wish they'd done his character a bit more justice. It's still a good movie imo, but I see what others are disappointed by; his manipulative, possessive, single-minded nature is much more pronounced in the book. In the movie, he's just a bit softer, more sympathetic. I think it's still a good adaptation, but I wish they'd shown his claws more in the ending, which I think definitely did miss the impact and point of what we got from the book. I

[@z2yn]

Read the book - and to be fair, I was fine with it. I see the books similar to the HP ones as their own versions. What I loved in the movie was that part with the Hanging Tree, when they played the recording. Sejanus could have thought that someone eavesdropped on their convo and was scared for Coriolanus - but he'd been to careful for that. So he knew that second that somehow, without him realizing, his supposed brother and best friend had betrayed him. It was so brutal.

[@eccentricbooknerd]

The way they shot the Lucy/Snow sceen where she "betrays" him was not clear at all. My whole family was confused because none of us read the book. We were like, what just happened? This was such a great video to explain that. Thank you.

[@nyxldx]

overall with book adaptations I think film makers struggle to find a way to show the lead's inner thoughts. And in a story that's character driven it's quite vital, hence why in a movie adaptation it feels like something is missing. With that being said, the movie was still entertaining despite being very rushed. I still highly recommend the book though

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Yes

[@oblivious93massacre]

Can you imagine Snow watching the rebel broadcast of Katniss singing The Hanging Tree? How he'd instantly be transported back to that moment in the woods - that moment of perceived betrayal? I can just see the loathing look of hatred on Donald Sutherland's face. If looks could kill...

[@JNDReacts]

17:07 I’m glad a fellow queer woman is finally reviewing this story so I can share my current crack!ship with someone who might appreciate it: Lucy Gray and Tigris. A while back I was on the Hunger Games subreddit and came across a comment that pointed out how everything kind that Coriolanus did for Lucy Gray came from Tigris’s suggestions. Granted it’s not much to go on, it’s really just Tigris being sympathetic towards the districts and both her and Lucy Gray wanting to believe people are inherently good, hence why I called it a crack!ship.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I can see that! I love the fic communities

[@JNDReacts]

@@AmandaTheJedi Alas, there doesn’t seem to be any fanfic shipping these two (yet)!

[@melobski4]

I completely agree with you in that for us who didn’t read the book, snow’s transformation at the end of the movie was because Lucy leaving him, we did get some glances of what person he truly was but ultimately he came off as a heartbroken immature man. If in the book he was always presented as someone who only loved when it was convenient for him we needed more of that in the movie

[@fofosyrie3798]

I literally just finished watching it The odds were indeed in my favour

[@abbeymoulton3345]

Same here!!

[@fofosyrie3798]

@@abbeymoulton3345 I like watching a review after the movie to see what I missed while everything is still fresh in my brain

[@MeredithHagan]

Maybe it was because I read the book right before seeing the movie, but I never felt the movie romanticized Snow. He is jealous and possessive of Lucy in the movie and spends the first half of the film mocking Sejanus. Also, we don’t see the same personality traits in Tigris because she KEPT so much of their suffering from him. She absolutely did resort to sex work during the war to fend for their family (and remember, she would have been 10 years old when the war ENDED). She is still working diligently during Game 10 to help Coriolanus - their family’s “future” (why isn’t she when she’s the older one and clearly on a path to becoming a Capitol designer) - maintain his appearance. It was their grandmother that made the deal that kept them fed throughout the war and Tigris was bringing in income from selling herself. And he didn’t know about any of it until years later, when his entitled personality was already formed. I have a LOT of Tigris feelings. One thing they avoided entirely in the movie is that Coriolanus recalls SA-Ing a girl in the Capitol, while goaded on by a classmate. It’s just a brief mention and he thinks of it as a “romance” but Collins clearly meant it to be assault.

[@spongecakes1986]

How is it that I got home from the theater seeing this movie only to see this. If I had a nickel for every time Amanda put out a video about a movie WHILE I WAS SEEING IT, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice (the first time was Black Widow).

[@colorfulcaro]

Something I like about the book is how fast you get that he's a control freak. And you can see his desire and need for control only growing, to the point where even nature is disgusting in his eyes.

[@notyournormalg1]

That makes this movie so much more clear! I love how you put together some of the loose ends that were left out of the book.

[@fusionspace175]

Actually, in the end, the book and movie are unclear on if Lucy really set a snake trap, or if Corio just found a random snake, got bit, and assumed. The turn is just as wild in the book though, I went back a few times trying to figure out his thought process. I liked that the movie played her as possibly a threat, in the book that feels like pure delusion, but it's more dramatic this way. I never felt like she betrayed him, so much as she figured it out quick and got out of danger, as she'd been doing all book long. The tragedy is that if he'd just gone with her and chosen love, all that history might have been different. So I think it's very impprtant that she bears no actual blame for his evil turn. Also The Hanging Tree (that Katniss knows) was about the events earlier when he arrives in 12. We see the actual hanging but don't know its importance until later.

[@z2yn]

His disdain of nature and a simple life made it clear that he wouldn't have lasted though. And not even their love would have prevented him from either bailing on her or things going haywire.

[@baby.nay.]

I’m not a hunger games connoisseur, but have seen all films , this felt like 2 frickin movies , thank you for that validation. I watched it bootleg alone tbh ,and I remember pausing it near what I thought was the end , and it was the half way mark ? I was shook

[@lindsey3600]

I think that lucy gray looking like she was going to betray him in the final moment was one time that we really saw through snow's eyes. His paranoia made him think she was going to tell.

[@daniellewillis2767]

Should have been a series. So much more room to deep dive on lore and side characters and just storytelling in general.

[@roxann6561]

I absolutely love when you do movie reviews based off books! You have a great way of merging the two together while being funny with your commentary. I was honestly super confused when I watched the movie but now feel like I have a better grasp on everything. Thank you!

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Honestly, after reading the book, I was glad that Snow got torn apart by the mob

[@ericaa.1934]

I watched it without having watched the other movies. I think I empathized with Snow in regards to how fear and the trauma of poverty can lead people to do things that are morally grey and even bad at times. I felt his friend was a great juxtaposition in that his wealth and proximity to power shielded him so he was better able to try to do the morally correct thing (even if he was naive about it). I personally hated his friends ending but I do think it was realistic and made it more impactful. I also saw his relationship with Lucy Gray as offering an opening in him to grow and allow himself to care about something outside of escaping his life circumstances; however, whenever he starts thinking about bringing her to district two it was clear he hadn’t grown much of at all. It seemed pretty clear that the idea that she would want to follow was silly and indicative that he didn’t really see her as a full person outside of how she made him feel.

[@LilacSreya]

You haven’t seen any of the movies? Didn’t read the book either, I assume? Your interpretation is very useful to show how this movie looks from a fresh perspective. Would you tell how much of the Hunger Games did you know before watching this movie?

[@crystalpritchard5065]

I read about a 1/4 of the book before seeing the movie and I have to say I enjoyed the parts of the movie I hadn’t read more than the ones I had. I was mostly disappointed with how much of before the games they removed, like when they have Brandy’s dead body hanging above the tributes at Arachne’s funeral. That was hard to read in the books, seeing it in the movie i think would’ve helped further the narrative about how harsh the Capitol was to the districts.

[@Aurem15]

YES, I was anticipating that scene so much it was a little disappointed they didn't add it. Also how they made Clemencia less of a friend to Snow and didn't show what the snake bites caused and how Lucy weaponized them

[@crystalpritchard5065]

@@Aurem15 I also can’t decide if Gaul was more menacing in the book for not telling Clemensia that the snakes would bite her until after her hand was already in the container, or in the movie when she told her beforehand and almost dared Clemensia to still retrieve the page.

[@misstoridanielle30]

I wish this would have been a limited series so that things could have been fleshed out more

[@Tucker12456]

This made me pick up the kindle copy and i find it beyond hilarious that Coryo's father's middle name is Xanthos - greek, meaning golden, fair or yellow. His name is (and i cannot put enough stress on how much i adore the wordplay) CRASSUS YELLOW SNOW. Good job the Price family didn't get to his corpse huh

[@LilacSreya]

I don’t get it. “Crassus Yellow Snow” what do you mean?

[@Tucker12456]

@@LilacSreya Crassus just sounds like crass. Yellow snow... well, we know what not to do with that

[@JC_Cali]

I think the biggest arguments for it being 2 movies/limited run series is that the movies completely overlooked Clemnsia and The Plinth parents relationship with Coryo. Plus of course Tigris. Though my biggest question is could they have done narration well? In what way?

[@MrBonsaiBones]

idk why or if this is right but I vividly remember a line in Catching Fire about there being a previous female champion from district 12 who died only a few years previously? during the explanation for why Katniss was going to the 75th games no matter what? it's implied the previous champ was from the somewhere around the 10th games and lived to an old age so... I'm just going to choose to believe that was Lucy. She lived :3

[@AmandaTheJedi]

I fact checked and Katniss just says there's three existing Victors, Two Men, One Female (herself). So it's just implied that the previous victor passed. They do mention there being a second winner in the first book but never specify, just say that Hamich is the only one still alive. I assume Lucy Gray never made her way back to District 12

[@JNDReacts]

@@AmandaTheJediI recently listened to the audiobooks read by Tatiana Maslaney (highly recommend) and in the first chapter of the first book Katniss thinks about how District 12 has only had two victors, and only one, Haymitch, was still alive. But there’s never any indication that she knows anything more about the other victor, which I think makes sense considering Gaul had that season destroyed, and how most people in 12 didn’t even watch the 10th games because their TVs barely worked and it wasn’t mandatory viewing back then. Also the victors weren’t treated like celebrities, they were just sent back to their regular lives.

[@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462]

That victor most likely was not Lucy Gray because all mention of her was scrubbed from history as well

[@JNDReacts]

@@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462 There could still be stories in 12 that they had a winner before Haymitch. Like the few people who knew that Lucy Gray had won would talk about it when the games started becoming more of a spectacle (and when the winning district started receiving more food, like “hey, we never got that when our district had a winner”). I think what most likely happened is that when Suzanne Collins sat down to write the prequel she remembered that she’d briefly mentioned a previous District 12 winner who wasn’t Haymitch, and whom she had given no other detail about, so she could do whatever she wanted with that character.

[@LadyScaper]

I greatly enjoyed the movie, but I never thought heartbreak is what turned him into the President Snow as we knew him in The Hunger Games series. In the movie, he never ever sympathized with the tributes or ever thought the concept of The Hunger Games was wrong. He fell for Lucy, in spite of his innate horribleness. He was always headed down that path, and once he realized he wanted Lucy Gray, he was hoping to change her to his side. Even when in District 12 he wasn’t shocked or surprised by the treatment of the people. He just noticed that the peacekeeper food was better and he wanted to go back to The Capitol. Even though he cried over Sejanus, he very quickly rationalized it. Due to your review, I now want to see the movie again and you convinced me to read the book. I think the reaction to a 2 part film would be pretty negative. I was fine with a really long film. While I would have gone to a part 2, I don’t think most people would. If the book was release in 2 parts, then a 2 part movie would have some credibility I think.

[@JNDReacts]

I saw the movie before reading the book, which I think is actually the way to do it, because I loved the movie and then I read the book and loved that even more! Though there are some aspects from the movie that I liked better, such as Tigris’s final line, and the fact that we got to see what Lucy Gray was up to throughout the games.

[@money1137]

I read the book first and finished it a few days before watching and agree. It actually ruined the movie for me because I just kept comparing notes the entire time

[@animedragons9998]

My main complaint about the movie was it feeling rushed. Especially at the beginning cause it gives no context about a time skip until you're in the room with Snow as an adult.

[@ForgottenCharacter]

I keep thinking of Hadestown’ song “Now That the Chips are Down” (that literally starts with Songbird Vs Rattlesnake) And how the Fates’ advise seems to mirror Snow’s assumptions and paranoia And that I’m pretty sure was from before the prequel was written

[@Skye_Writer]

I agree that it needed to be either 2 more or better yet, a series.There was just too much truly important stuff that was left out or seriously rushed, and the movie was STILL 2-1/2 hrs long. They don't spend any time with Snow building an ACTUAL bond with Sejanus; after going through basic training and spending a couple of weeks in 12 and finding out he won't get paid for a MONTH so he can't send money home, Snow literally IS at his lowest point and considering suicide, so when Sejanus shows up in 12, it's truly a relief and he actually finally becomes a real friend to Snow. (Also, I'd have loved to spend time with them bonding with their fellow Peacekeepers and seeing them get their squad nicknames, "Gent" [Snow] and "Bullseye" [Sejanus].) And then the slow buildup and the little bits and pieces that happen as Snow discovers Sejanus is lying about being broke and finding out bit by bit what he's actually up to. And even though he sent the jabberjay to Dr. Gaul, after the whole dust up with shooting Mayfair and Billy Taupe and all that, Snow looks for ways to get in touch with Sejanus' parents to let them know he's getting himself into some trouble, in the hopes that Mr. Plinth can buy some people off and bring Sejanus home to get reassigned (and the movie never makes it clear that Snow doesn't think Sejanus will get in serious trouble for his treason plans, either, believing that Plinth can buy his son out of that trouble, too). There's just too MUCH of that early Game of Thrones-style political back and forth and intrigue going on, especially in the last half of the book, to try to cram it all into the final 40 mins of the film. And all that time you spend with a young Snow, it has an effect on the story. I mean, I went in to this book KNOWING what Snow becomes and convinced I wasn't going to like him and root for him, but I DO, and I can see where he might have become a better person; I can see him gain empathy and understanding, while at the same time there is this hard part of him, this nugget of entitlement; the more people call Lucy Gray "his girl" (how they refer to her as a Tribute, as "his" tribute, his songbird, his girl), the more possessive he starts to feel over her, so that when he shows up in 12 he's jealous of Billy Taupe because Lucy Gray doesn't "belong" to Billy Taupe anymore, she's _his_ girl now. Despite the fact that he hasn't even spoken to her in weeks. We didn't get the time to see that develop, to see him go from a young man we can believe has the chance to take another path, to change his life for the better, to the evil, controlling dictator he ends up being. It's a tragic turn that you can see coming, an inevitable predestined fate for the character, but a wonderful commentary on the destructive forces of conformity, materialism, and shallow interactions instead of real empathy and friendship. It needed more time.

[@Advent3546]

Gotta appreciate them doing a throwback to the Era of YA adaptations. Hopefully the Children of Blood and Bones movie will have the kind of legs this movie had.

[@TheNightdream11]

I've been thinking about it and this is the perfect place to share: What if "Flickerman" is an earned name, more like a title for being the weatherman, or host of the Hunger Games.

[@prettyroach]

wait that be so satisfying! officially adopting this headcanon

[@songbird6414]

Seeing the Tom Blythe thirst makes me feel like he’d be great live action Astarion if that were ever a project to get off the ground(please god don’t ever let it).

[@lucianacarvalho3136]

I'll have to check the movie after reading your comment, but from the trailers alone, I don't see it. Maybe because Neil's just too amazing as Astarion

[@Almanatrix]

One of my favorite parts of the book is where Snow is trudging miserably through the heat of 12, thinking to himself that he's not cut out for romance...he just wants a cushy desk job that leaves him plenty of time for tea parties. I hate the the movie wasnt able to show that prissy side of him very well. I also thought the games in general were very rushed. Some of the things that caused feelings of dread, anxiety and even slight horror were just fumbled or dropped entirely. Suzanne Collins has a dry sense of humor that i love and it really irked me that they lose that in the movies... I saw it with my boyfriend. He liked everything but the singing because it felt kind of awkward but I, who read the book, didnt care for it at all. The actors were great...i was surprised that I'm one of the few that didnt like Lucy Gray's actress...or Sejanus. But everyone else was really good.

[@jilligo]

I would have digged the movies to be in 'You' Style, you know hearing the inner Monologe of Snow - that would have showed how messed up he is perfectly and totally fits the vibe😂

[@toothless3835]

I just thought of an interseting way to have got inside Snow's head like we did in the book. Had him talking to himself in a way of a mirror, a representation of him talking in his head. Not a diegetic way of talking to himself, so the other characters don't notice. An off the screen/double imposed on the scene, and as the movie progresses and as his conflict with doing the terrible depletes, so does the super imposed thoughts. As he accepts and throws away his guilt. The ending scene of killing his teacher with no conflicted thoughts.

[@LB-xz9ub]

Seeing the perception of this movie shift in real time is so fascinating...I do remember when the movie first came out, I was one of the few people on twitter pointing out that the actor was way to teen idol looking to be acceptable as a villain. Those who hadn't read the novel seemed all too disappointed when Snow turned presuming he switched out of nowhere 😂. I also believe some people thought they were watching a love story lmao. But people seem to be coming to my side now so I'm gonna zag again, and ask: isn't that the point? There's a reason why a lot of religious iconography show the devil or Lucifer as attractive and not 'ugly'. I do accept the 3rd act was rushed though and more focus should've probably been given to the breakdown in coryo's mental state during his peacekeeping years. Alas. I do hear there might be a 4 hr cut though so in the end, we might see it one day.

[@mizknack5082]

I appreciate that the actor is hot, because it gets across the novel's premise that all the Snows have left is appearance. They have nothing of value left but what they can scrounge up through guile, luck and a remembered past glory.

[@arbyswitch5580]

Late to the party bc I finally watched the movie but I think it was a very refreshing and maybe even bold move to have the villain origin story be like "well actually he was an asshole already to be honest, this was always going to be his path"

[@shrikeofterven6006]

Wish the book had done chapters from his point of view and chapters from hers because we never see how much she truly feels and how much is manipulation to survive.

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Yeah I get the impression that her performances extend to performing to people around her at times. Not in the same way as Coryo, but I think they have more similarities than people think, though Tigris does suggest that, but definitely meant it in a different way

[@thepuzzleoracle6760]

Honestly? The fact that the true meaning of snow’s character gets so miss interpreted, to me, is beautiful irony and elevated to movie for me. The fact that so many did exactly the same thing that most of the characters do and misjudge Snow is exactly why I love the movie so much. My friend and I saw it together and came out with WILDLY different opinions on the end, and I think that drives home the point. Despite knowing what he becomes, people still fall for his charm anyway.

[@shouldbewritig]

Idk about anyone else but while many two parters feel like a cash grab, this one I think it would’ve made sense. The book splits the story into 3 major sections so splitting it up to take more time, especially at the first half of the movie, would’ve felt right.

[@JNDReacts]

I think a limited series would’ve been better, tbh.

[@tatehildyard5332]

Yeah. That and let’s be honest, no one really gives a crap about the District 12 part to just see that as it’s own movie. All the actual cool and intriguing stuff is just in the first 2 parts.

[@natatatm]

I guess it's frustrating bc I certainly think there's a place for stories like this. There are truly evil SOBs in the world who still view themselves as people who have struggled and feel justified in their motivations, and I think it's valuable to show how you can absolutely be that relatable person and still be absolutely evil. That's what holds the mirror up to ourselves to make sure we never try to justify our own evil bc we can see our own humanity too. The frustrating part is that if it's not handled *impeccably* it falls sort of flat and you have ppl who think someone turned evil bc they were rejected by a girl

[@grizzlygoldman]

I recently had The Hanging Tree stuck in my head for two whole business days

[@AmandaTheJedi]

my life for the past week my family is getting uncomfortable

[@grizzlygoldman]

Oh it’s a vibe, my coworkers actively requested I stop singing it out loud

[@grizzlygoldman]

It was apparently a “massive bummer” like ok losers sure

[@JNDReacts]

@@grizzlygoldmanI’m sure if my pets understood the words they’d be very concerned, since I’ve been singing verses at random for over a month now.

[@grizzlygoldman]

⁠@@JNDReactsplot twist they do and they are and they’re planning a barked/meowed/bird soundsed intervention (idk what pets you have)

[@chiefroo]

Great video, as always! Your point about the truth behind his father's death was fascinating. I also liked how you touched on Corio's faux-adoption by the Plinths in the books, it was so much more insidious. I'd love to hear your thoughts on them dropping certain things, like the snakebite effects on Clemensia.

[@dktro8831]

If i remember correctly i do think that Lucy is mentioned in passing. In that we are told there were two past victors from District 12, Hamish being one, but we dont get told about the second (Lucy), this tells me that at the least the people of the districts remember there was a second but not who it was.

[@jasmineelizabeth3342]

I’ve seen a lot of discourse about how Snow in the film doesn’t come across as inherently evil as he does in the book, but honestly I think that was a very conscious decision on Suzanne’s part. Some things translate better in a book than they do in film and I think in this case Snow having a gradual descent into evil worked a lot better than him simply being a sociopath and predisposed to badness. I personally don’t find those types of characters to be very interesting because they’re not relatable, whereas a person who starts out good and turns down a bad path is relatable.

[@Drieleven]

Thanks so much for this review. We didn't read the book before the movie and my and husband I had a disagreement about whether Lucy Grey's betrayal was the main reason Cori takes the path he does. I thought not but the quote about the things you love the most at the end seems to try and tell you it is all about Lucy Grey and not all the rest of the social circumstance +his natural outlook on life

[@pickled323]

The end of the book made me feel angry and conflicted towards snow, while the movie made me feel a little bit sad and pitiful towards him, especially when he's crying. It looks more heartbreaking like he's been driven to his breaking point rather than showing his already present inclination for becoming President Snow.

[@filmfangirls9163]

Great video!! Honestly this was a prequel I did not think I would be interested in and ended up entranced. The casting was amazing and the story answered alot of questions I had!!

[@papayapuffin4927]

My main problem of the movie was they cut out specific parts of the book that weren’t his inner dialogue but that showed how self centered he is. Like Lucy gray having to tell him to help Arachne, and Sejanus having to tell him that people in the seam don’t choose to be poor and starving.

[@lindseystein9676]

Now that you called him Corio (is he called that in the book/movie?), I keep thinking of his name as choreography

[@AmandaTheJedi]

Aha yeah they call him Coryo a lot in the book if it’s someone close to him

[@thebooklife7271]

love the long form! this explained so much to me. love delving back into my philosophy capstone for the first time since college lol