What Would You Add To Your Lord of the Rings Movie?

[@lukerabon7925]

I'd have more dwarves play a part. Erebor was less than two centuries ago and in the books the dwarves are at the council because they've been visited by emissaries of Sauron trying to get them to join his side. The dwarves are harder to corrupt than men, never becoming nazgul even though Sauron still tainted their rings. And yet Gimli is the only dwarf we really see after the council. It'd be great to get more of them, especially since healing the feud between their kin is kinda Gimli and Legolas' whole arc. Let Legolas have a turn being the fish out of water. He's young by elf standards, he doesn't have to be cool 24/7.

[@RIP_Sinners]

A few dwarves, huddled in the darkness of Khazad-dum; exhausted, beaten, but unbroken. They have fought and fled the goblins, trolls and the fiery shadow for months in their ruined city. They finally reach the western door by creeping about the side passages, only to find it destroyed. Just as they begin to despair, they catch a glimpse of starlight down the main hall, and realize that they are not alone...

[@KanuckStreams]

Absolutely. It'd be great to see that! I'd love to see the Campaign in the North, with Sauron's forces vs Mirkwood and Erebor/Dale. I'd LOVE to see the campaign within Khazad-Dum before then, or even better, the loooooong War of the Orcs and Dwarves which was only briefly shown in the flashback to Azog's hate-on for Thorin (which also wasn't accurate to the books).

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Shadow of War did some great little additions and changes to LOTR lore. Some of the things that are inaccuracies honestly make more sense than what actually happened. The dates of certain events in Shadow of War are way off from the real LOTR lore, but in the real lore, that implies the Orcs took a city and then did nothing for 1000 years. My favourite completely new addition in that game, aside from the core concept of Talion and Celebrimbor and their battle with Sauron, is Zog. This little necromancer Orc who started as just some random grunt and came a hairs breadth away from being one of the most powerful characters in all of Middle Earth by resurrecting a Balrog in undeath. He would have had total control over a Balrog, and he himself is effectively immortal. This little pawn of the Witch King's decided he wanted to be his own master, and almost supplanted Sauron as the main antagonist of the game. Thats impressive, and it felt really thematic. Something of a recurring theme in those games is that the Orcs are in many ways being severely limited by their service to Sauron. They constantly show initiative and ambitions beyond what is expected, and Zog's attempts to become the new big bad of the setting really fit well with that.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I want to hear the story of the wizard who kept an entire orc army in stasis for a millennia in order to give the survivors time to reestablish themselves in the land as a force to repel them when they awaken

[@ASpaceOstrich]

@@twilightgardenspresentatio6384 Thats sort of the plot of Shadow of War. Fight Saurons forces to a standstill for as long as you can to buy time for middle earth to prepare. Its a shame most Tolkien fans are so hung up on the accuracy because thematically its a great story.

[@martingon9156]

@@twilightgardenspresentatio6384 heyy i did that in my dnd world! Well it’s skeletons instead of orcs, but it’s essentially the same thing

[@benjaminjane93]

I believe you could get away with a lot of stuff that would go against what the book established as long as it is consistent to the tone and the 'theme' of the original story. One of my favourite examples from the Peter Jackson films is the Elves fighting in Helm's Deep. It's not in the books. It might not great sense (Like no scout from either side spotted them marching into Rohan, a land that is pretty flat and tree-less?). But Peter Jackson did it in order to further the theme of togetherness against the coming darkness. And also in a world building sense to show the audience that the fight against Sauron affects all people of middle earth. Not just the men of the west.

[@robertfaer4522]

I can't argue that anyone not familiar with the original version doesn't find it awesome. I can't even say I don't like it. Learning that the elves basically gave up on Middle Earth really sucks the fun out of that moment.

[@jackplant6909]

Oh I really didn't like that, I think it's a fascinating piece of world building in the books that the elves DON'T fight for the most part. For me it really helped create the sense that this is a fantasy world inhabited by different species and they don't all have the same morality and priorities. And then that makes Legolas' choices and his friendship.with Aragorn and Gimli unique and wonderful. But I massively agree that it would be great to see more of how the war impacts everyone around the world. I think making a Lord of the Rings film or series that focuses on the lives of characters from lots of locations who have nothing to do with the ring but are all impacted by the war would be fascinating and would give an opportunity to show a much more diverse array of characters

[@georgewilson2575]

@@jackplant6909 The elves were busy fighting Sauron's forces in the Mirkwood and defending Lothlorien, but that was inconvenient for Jackson, so he shoehorned them in there where they didn't belong. I would have preferred that he gave the elves their proper due, as well as the dwarves in Erebor and the men in Dale who were also fighting Sauron's forces. For all the nonsense he found time to add, some reference to the fact that it was a "world war" of sorts would have been welcome, instead of him making it look like the entire war was fought in Rohan and Gondor.

[@Glorfindel_117]

The Elves showing up is one of the worst and most hated parts of the movies BECAUSE is discards the central themes and ideas of the whole legendarium. The Age of Man, the Fading of The Elves, and that thing they even included and NAMED in the movies, "The LAST ALLIANCE of Elves and Men"....

[@johnnybigbones4955]

Yeah I mean I don't mind the elves showing up but for me it goes directly against the themes of the book of the fading and growing irrelevance of the elves. But that's the fun of it I suppose, our different POVs. I'm wracking my brain to think of something "added" to the plot that I thought was better than the original. I can think of lots of things that Jackson took away that I agreed with or didn't mind. Hmmm. I guess I didn't mind Arwen rather than Glorfindel. Glorfindel was a bit more of Tolkien mining his legendarium whereas Arwen was an important character that otherwise wouldn't have gotten much characterisation. I guess the "glowing" was stupid there but the actual change/addition I think is fine.

[@TheNerdySimulation]

It took some of my closest friends YEARS to understand what I meant when I said the phrase "Something being your favourite is not the same as something being the best" partly due to this weird cultural consciousness that puts the original text in a position of aspirational divinity when adaptations are even mentioned. Part of loving someone else's art is wanting to alter it and make it your own as a means of connecting more deeply with it, not to uphold it as some infallible artifact.

[@egregoros1898]

I think this begs the question; If you love it, why do you feel the need to change it? and if you have a desire to change it, do you really love it? If you are trying to connect with it in a deeper way, why are you altering it? Not to claim that the original work is a peerless paragon that should never be adapted. But I do find the idea of alteration to fit (you) a strange practice. If it doesn't work for you unless you change it, then it doesn't work for you. Square peg, round hole, etc, etc. Instead of trying to force that square peg, just find a square hole. Edit: Just want to add: find what clicks with you regardless of the medium. And if you can't find what you're looking for? Create it!

[@Ordoscc]

​@@egregoros1898When a person who isn't very aware of the complexities of creating an engaging narrative gets involved in a fandom, the first thing usually done is to make an Original Character (do not steal). That is already adjusting the world to fit this new character. But this person loves the fandom, but wants to feel like there's an interpretation of the fandom that lets them inhabit it in their minds. She doesn't want to be Legolas, but rather Legolass, Legolas's twin sister who's just as good as him and has a crush on Aragorn. Bad OCs are bad, yes, but lets not judge everyone by their preteen Sonic fanart.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

I would put a scene at the end where Elijah wood is sitting in a chair overlooking the ocean in the English countryside. He'll be wearing 1919 contemporary clothing, and he'll get up and walk towards a cliff with a gravestone in it and match cut it into frodo going into the west. Mr Tolkien will be spinning so fast and so long I'll be able to power the UK for decades. Everytime someone says, "it's an allegory" we'll get 10 more years.

[@TheTarv]

Dude, I've never thought about Smaug being brought back, but that would be sick. The Witch King riding that into the battle at Minas Tirith. If fear had not been stricken among the people already, then it definitely would have at that point.

[@edwardg8912]

Idk. Part of the reason Gandalf was interested in slaying Smaug was to prevent Sauron from using him. If Gandalf knew Sauron’s powers, he wouldn’t have gone through the trouble of killing Smaug if the undead dragon could just be brought back as a better servant.

[@TheTarv]

@@edwardg8912 while you are not wrong, this falls more under the rule of cool to me. Also, just in my opinion, there would have to be things that Gandalf didn't know about Sauron. Otherwise, he could have prevented him even becoming the threat that he was.

[@kingwildcat6192000]

@@edwardg8912 Dude theres necromancy, it could be in the future that the witch king learned or made a spell to reanimate Smaug or older dragons and boom lore friendly and bad to the bone.

[@tassiebushranger6233]

@@edwardg8912 Gandalf standing on the battlements of minas Tirith and seeing the undead Smaug approaching "I did not think of that!"

[@dadahound]

Gotta be honest, Smaug as a mount for another villain just kinda kills the interest for me. Like, what fuck is he doing in the South? Why isn't he flying towards The Lonely Mountain to take revenge on dwarves and Dale folk, reclaim his hoard and toy with the powerless survivors? And If the answer is "well, of course not, he's a mindless undead" then What. Even. Is. The Point? Smaug isn't memorable villain for being able to fly and shoot fire. Smaug the Golden was arrogant, cruel and sly! He stole and hoarded the ancestral wealth of an entire City. When faced with a Hobbit for the first time he played played mind games instead of immediately blasting fire in his direction. He boasted his invulnerability so openly he accidentally revealed his hidden weakness. To reduce him to just reanimated bones without personality? At that point he might just as well be another fellbeast.

[@malkav_ils]

Except the resurrection of Smaug basically undoes half of the victory of The Hobbit and half of the purpose Galdalf actually coaxed Thorin to go and reclaim Erebor - prevent Sauron from gaining the most powerful ally he could (second only to Durin's Bane maybe). Because you see - great authours like Tolkien weave their plots and stories in a way that if you start adding stuff without really thinking it though deeply with all the reprocussions up and down the line - will just make the whole thing crumble bit by bit.

[@johnnybigbones4955]

I think I would want to add some scenes from an Orc's point of view. Not really to "humanise" them, that's not the point of Orcs, but to show what life is like for them, to really show the evil of Morgoth and Sauron and also in a way the harshness of the Valar that punished the Orcs by putting the Sun in the sky to drive them underground. All the bits with dialogue from the Orcs, their opinions of the Nazgul and the little hints of what it was like to be a servant of the Dark Lord really fired my imagination as a kid reading LOTR. When I realised the Orcs had their own opinions and politics I just immediately wanted to know more.

[@MrocnyZbik]

Elric is one of my favorite series of books, there are comic books created by Julien Blondel (Titan Comics) that even Michael Moorcock commented "The saga of the Albino I would have written myself if I had thought of it first!". So yeah, there is a seal of approval and it's awesome.

[@Max3110]

The Blondel Comics were my first contact with Elric. They’re great

[@jamesbruce1975]

The Saboteur was your idea?! I loved that game! Shame you weren't the ones to execute the final game but the concept was awesome. It's what got me hooked on story driven games and by extension RPGs.

[@mcolville]

It was absolutely not my idea, but I was on the team that originally pitched it.

[@jamesbruce1975]

@@mcolville I guess I meant "your" in the figurative sense for clarity 😄 hell of a concept either way. Love the Nazgul idea too, shame that never got made.

[@CrumblierKey0]

This! I came here for this!

[@henrystokeswrites]

Matt, That's so cool you were involved in the pitch for The Saboteur! I've played a lot of games over the years, but The Saboteur is always one I remember well. It was so original, and resistance during war is a concept that isn't explored a lot. There are some real tales of bravery and heroism to be found. Sounds like a lot of your pitch made it through to the final game!

[@tonlito22]

So Gollum says some shit that implies, or at least implies to me that Sauron is growing himself a new body, like in a science tube. One of the things I would want to do is show more flashes of the diabolical stuff the orcs and Nazgul and bad guys were doing to Gollum and have it play into Sam accidentally retraumatizing him and also Frodo being corrupted by the Ring. Heck give Sauron a glow effect when he has the Ring and have that effect appear on Frodo, especially when he consciously uses the Ring for evil. I originally thought that Ukruk-hai helmets were supposed to have visors with like fangs on them, so they'll have those. Get some gruesome steel bite attacks at Helms Deep for sure. The Rohirim are described as singing in the battle of Pelenor Fields. Absolutely use that. Set the whole damn Ride of the Rohirim to Musical rules: talk until you have sing, sing until you have to dance (or in this case fight). Also have as much of the extended dialogue between the orcs as possible. I find the chapter "The Uruk-hai" to be fascinating because Tolkien introduces and characterizes like a dozen new bad guys all at once and entirely by dialogue. Then there's the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag where we have two evil guys that are effectively good friends who in about ten hours time will be killing each other and all of their men for booty and promotion. Tolkien has professionalism as a sort of "Evil Virtue" and that's something that can be worked with. Another one: more monsters. Like get some medieval manuscript critters like Lyndwurms fighting with bad guys. Have giant snakes crawling up the walls of Minas Tirith during the siege, or werewolf leading the Wargs on the other side of Moria. Finally: have the Fellowship finish off the Nazgul while Frodo and Sam and Gollum take care of the Ring. I don't care how you would have to morph the geography of the battle to have that happen, maybe the Nazgul try to cap Gandalf due to Sauron's spite, but I want Aragorn, Merry, Pipin, Legolas, Gimili, and Gandalf each to bag a Black Rider in that final battle. Leaves two to get blasted by the eruption of mount doom.

[@kennethfender3518]

During the last battle in the movies there is that weird part where Aragorn is almost killed by some random troll and Legolas is struggling to get to him, replace that with a bunch of Nazgul and maybe add that Aragorn already took an arrow or something (since we already saw him fight off the nazgul in fellowship) and then have the rest of the fellowship come to his rescue and BOOM that becomes an incredible bit, instead of odd.

[@Eshajori]

"Show more flashes of the diabolical stuff the orcs and Nazgul and bad guys were doing" I've thought about this a lot. Every time I see that tower... like... what goes on in THAT place? How does Sauron impress his will upon his minions? Whom does he directly communicate with? What's going on up there?

[@robhardingpoetry]

I think this is one of the differences between book and film. In the book it's never explicit that he doesn't have a body. It's very easy to read it that he does indeed have corporeal form.

[@robhardingpoetry]

@@kennethfender3518 That random troll fight is precisely because they shot a sequence where a corporeal Sauron stepped onto the battlefield, all glowy and angelic. But they realised it distracted from the tension of the story and was just confusing so they pulled it and cg'd a big troll over the top. Which still shows Aragon as a mighty warrior who'd taken on a troll alone.

[@benjaminholcomb9478]

Honestly, just knowing that Bill made it, was enough for me. *holds back single tear*

[@manicmonarch2608]

The problem with "playing with the toys in the toybox" to create your own stories in the universe is you're supposed to be creating something for the fans of the source material to enjoy. You're not playing in your personal toy box of LotR figures, or even sitting around a table playing a TTRPG where your version of events happens. I'm sure everyone has an idea of what should happen in Rings of Power. In this case, the writers should have put the toys away, highlighted some passages, did some "homework" and delivered a show that did not spit in the face of established lore, or make up strange new mythological origins of a metal.

[@alvarobrudiaz9826]

Dwarves from erebor and Elves from mirkwood come to the blackgate after defeating the dark armies in the nord. So all the free people of middle earth march to the blackgate to serve as bait and give frodo a chance to destroy the ring, not jsut the men of the west. Also I would have filmed some paranoia inducing scenes of frodo caused by the ring, fearing a betrayal form Sam and stuff, building up that conflict.

[@deriznohappehquite]

Nirnaeth Arnoediad 2.0.

[@nickbeutler]

A couple months ago I was thinking through basically a step outline of the hobbit/lord of the rings in an alternate timeline where Bilbo doesn’t find the ring and the dwarves have to kill Gollum to save him. Smaug’s skeleton being risen and mounted by the Witch King (wielding the One Ring in defiance of Sauron) was the original image that inspired this idea. Cool to see I’m not the only one thinking about undead Smaug.

[@personguy8839]

In b4 "a dialogue insert of why the Elves were leaving"

[@RobertWF42]

I'd add scenes from Sauron's POV to the movie, at least a monologue describing his motivations & plans. The Nazgul game sounds awesome. Always keep some Nazgul (or Orcs) guarding Mt Doom in case the good guys actually try to destroy the One Ring!

[@lord6411]

@@morgothable Sauron is a tragic good guy. He is entirely for perfection in creation. He believes he is perfection and that all must succumb to him to achieve it. The funny part is: he’s right. If everyone shut up about freedom and listened to Sauron, middle earth would be perfect, but men can’t do that. So we get the third, and fourth ages.

[@lord6411]

@@morgothable I would say that from Sauron’s perspective, he has not changed at all. The means to his ends have changed, but the ends themselves are still the same. It’s why he never loses his powers unless directly attacked by Eru himself. The Maiar can lose power if they stray from their purpose on middle-earth. The Blue Wizards and Radigast slowly weaken because they lose focus, Gandalf and Saruman do not (until Saruman does and is subsequently stripped of his power). Sauron sticks to his goals, and he never waivers, despite countless opportunities to change his path. The countless ways to read into Tolkien’s work, and the multiple different internal perspectives on key figures, make it just so fascinating to explore alternative readings of his work. Sauron is as much a fallen hero as he is a tyrannical monster. He almost seems to symbolize the danger of lost faith more than just “Evil” itself.

[@TheLemonFox]

What I also like about this is Gandalf's fireworks dragon now becomes foreshadowing for this happening!

[@ardanblade641]

Why not a story about the recovery period of Gondor, Rohan, and the north? I could see the struggle to rebuild, bands of Orcs roaming and burning things aimlessly, abandoned Elven settlements being explored, etc.. could be very interesting.

[@CatastrophicDisease]

I would explore the Orc question far more. The way they did with Adar in Rings of Power (which in general I didn't like, but really appreciated the addition of his character). Hell, beyond even Orcs, I'd explore the fact that the Easterlings and Haradrim are the enemies of Numenorians and Rohirrim, and that Faramir (one of my favorite characters in the books in general) is blatantly racist when talking about those Men.

[@Jebact]

Ok, you lost me on Faramir being racist. I just spent the last five minutes trying to Google it because I don't remember that.

[@TheKingCrow1]

This is the best answer I've seen. I'd like to see Tolkien in the desert.

[@CatastrophicDisease]

@@Jebact Re-read the section in the Two Towers where he's talking with Frodo and Sam - he refers to the Haradrim and Easterlings as low men, calling them wild and cruel. In the same conversation, he speaks at length about his and his fellow rangers' noble Numenorian descent and bloodline.

[@Jebact]

@@CatastrophicDisease I appreciate the reply. I'm not sure one comment about how he perceives the men he fights in war is blatant racism. I think it's pretty common an understandable how in war we only see the enemy as cruel and us as the nobles. But on top of that Gondor really is descendents from Numenorean nobles so there's that. Someone commented how faramir and his scout make a distinction between "the enemy" and the haradrim which makes it feel there is sympathy for them.

[@CatastrophicDisease]

@@Jebact It's true that his sentiments aren't out of the ordinary for a warrior's opinion of the people he's fighting. Faramir is a noble character in general, so of course there's conflicting feelings there, and yes I am sure there is sympathy mingled there too. All the same, he clearly has a fixation with "blood" (Aragorn too for that matter, though I don't recall him using that point to denigrate other Men as inferior), and Faramir mentions that specifically in discussing the Easterlings' supposed inferiority to the Gondorians.

[@idontno6d105]

I definitely think about that sort of thing in certain pieces of my favorite media more than others. I quite like media that's built around a narrative and that narrative feels conclusive so I think "well, I can't really add on to this."

[@briansmaller7443]

One thing - I would add Tom Shippey to the team AND LISTEN TO HIM.

[@Valtremors]

While others here are contemplating how perfect Tolkien was and how sacred his work is (oh nooo, you can't touch and do anything about this and that).... Yeah, I think it is an interesting subject to talk when adapting, interpreting and building upon someone else's work. And there definitely is space for what if scenarios. As for me, I would love to see what was happening in the other parts of the world. And not necessarily from heroes point of view, but I would like to see what other forces were doing in the meanwhile.

[@Xenibalt]

this is what made that one dune game (dune 2? it was called battle for arrakis on the sega genesis) so good they just invented a 3rd warring faction and i was down for it ordos were cool even tho they dont need to be there i just felt like it was cool to have ANOTHER opportunist get involved

[@walidovofsiddharthatan6130]

thought the aforementioned stream clip video was gonna be the thoughts on andor, but this is great too

[@mcolville]

Man I got a LOT to say about ANDOR but I think we'll wait until the season is done.

[@ProudNitro]

@@mcolville I can't wait to hear it. Next week!

[@MgFalcon]

Elrond was a Hobbit the whole time, who would have guessed? :O

[@Yora21]

I think the barbarians in the mountains between Gondor and Rohan could be seriously expanded on. From what I remember, The Return of the King is seriously lacking in the adventure and exploration of the earlier parts.

[@doppelkammertoaster]

I had an idea for an campaign in Middle-Earth once where the players would start as kings or noblemen in the Second Age and in the run of the plot become the Nazgul. And for a game where you are the Nazgul I would prefer to do it in a similar way. Let the player experience where they came from and what their motifs were and experience their corruption firsthand.

[@MIchaelArlowe]

I agree on telling the story of the Nazgûl, I feel like there is a great story to be found there. There’s hints that the Nazgûl started as some of the best people of their time, before their slow corruption.

[@slampotato2120]

This might be a bit silly, but I'd want to see more of the diegetic songs and music, to the point that it basically becomes a movie musical!

[@Dialethian]

Orc/Dwarvish song battle?

[@brunopinto6178]

oh god, no

[@sclair2854]

I think this goes to a disconnect between audience and writer, most audience members do tend to be looking for a faithful adaptation with good cinematography, music and dialogue (mostly because corporations hoard IPs so jealously that people haven't got a lot of patience for the new iteration to be experimental). But in general writing teams seem to always want to insert cool new 'improvements' which can sometimes be awesome, but if the overall bones of the adaptation aren't very well done then the changes instead feel like the team are too into their vision and not into sharing the original adaptation. To raising Smaug specifically though, I think thats a 6/10 movie idea, an 8/10 TV how idea, and a 11/10 Video Game idea.

[@Kane_the_Newschool_DM]

Good orcs. I could explain why, but it'd take forever, so I won't if nobody asks. Thanks for another good, thought-provoking video!

[@WhyAmIGlowing]

100% agree. I really would love to see the story of a good orc unfold in Rings of Power.

[@deriznohappehquite]

The Eagles are basically that already. Eagles are to Manwë what orcs are to Melkor.

[@Kane_the_Newschool_DM]

@@deriznohappehquite I actually don't know what you're talking about! Care to fill me in?

[@deriznohappehquite]

@@Kane_the_Newschool_DM Basically, the Orcs and Eagles (also Huan the hound, and Dwarves in their initial incarnation) do not have independent free will or a rational soul (Fëa). They are rather driven by the will of their masters. They can speak because a greater spirit is acting through them. Orcs are able to rebel because they retain then same traits as Morgoth. The Eagles don’t constantly intervene in the affairs of Middle Earth because Manwë is loath to interfere in the free will of the Children of Iluvatar (Source for most of this: Morgoth’s Ring, also some conjecture.) The Dwarves were the same way when Aulë initially made them, against the will of Eru, to be like Men and Elves, but Aulë repented and, seeking to destroy them, discovered that Eru gave them Fëar. (This is pretty similar to the Binding of Isaac) Tolkien never really nailed the nature of Eagle/Orc/etc. souls down, but that was what I believe he was operating under when he wrote LOTR.

[@davidlemire2467]

As an American expat living in New Zealand, I've been to the LoTR film locations, and those visits got me thinking of how I would adapt Lord of the Rings. I researched Tolkien's background and ideology, which led me to Spengler and Nietzsche. Please find below a beat-sheet for the opening screenplay scene. The Fellowship of the Ring Act I, Scene 1 Nazgûl group at twilight overlooking a shallow ford across the Baranduin River. Several send aloft their Fellhawks. These soar across the water and spy out the opposite banks. They detect enemies taking covert in the woods there. The Sons of Elrond call their own flying allies, and these tawny eagles with white heads charge the Fellhawks. The latter fly south to safety above the Nazgûl grouping. The Witch-King repels the eagles and orders a subordinate to reconnoiter the ford. This lesser Ringwraith dismounts, utters an incantation (in chorus with others), and transforms into the shape of a huge dire wolf. The creature lopes downhill toward the river. The Sons of Elrond call orders to stand fast as the werewolf breaks into the open and glares across the river at them. They are Grey Elves, able to stand against wraiths. The human allies of Elladan and Elrohir, however, are Middle-Men, having not the bearing to master their fear. When the massive wolf howls, several, but not all, break and run. The Sons of Elrond stride into the river, the former calling to the werewolf, “Listen, Hound of Sauron, the sons of Elrond are here. Fly, if you value your fowl skin!” They fire arrows at the creature. The dire wolf springs away from his enemies’ arrows, transforms into half-man/half-wolf, and slings a “black dart” in response. This sorcerously evil cubit-length missile strikes a Dunedain standing very near the elves. Quick and quiet is his death. The forces protecting the Shire send a hail of arrows at the werewolf, which retreats with howls of pain and rage (anger that such inferior beings should deign to stand in its way). Out of the forest to the south comes the Witch King and his seven mounted companions. Three others, some sort of slave-servants, bring the werewolf’s horse along. The werewolf himself joins the grouping as all cry a sorcerous incantation, stressing the name “Ar-Pharazôn”. A wave of terror strikes the forces of good. Horses go mad. Squires crawl and faint. The wave builds and crests; even Elladan and Elrohir give way and surrender the ford. The evil of Sauron has won the crossing. Water slows the passage north of the Nazgûl. The creatures seem nauseous while crossing the ford. The Nazgûl and their three Servitors ceremonially circle the dart-felled Dunedain. In the Black Speech they cast a spell that turns the dead ranger into an undead under their control. to be continued . . .

[@jfio4873]

I think resurrecting Smaug goes against a major theme of entropy in the books. Magic is leaving Middle-Earth, and wonders of magic are becoming weaker and less frequent. Raising an undead dragon would be a net increase of magic in the world.

[@Keovar]

Dracolich Smaug would be cool, but the simplest thing I’d want for LotR is more relevant female characters. Arwen being given Glorfindel’s part was good, but the part was still tiny. Galadriel’s part was mostly background and Eowyn was better, but she comes in at the end.

[@misterright4528]

For the Hobbit I would add a scene between Thorin and Beorn which would help explain why Beorn would go to rescue Thorin's body during the battle of five armies. I always thought it would be nice to make that moment more poignant.

[@jordanbachmann7002]

A group that mods the old BFME games came up with an amazing idea for a character, the current leader of the dunland tribes who attacks Helm's Deep under the influence of Saruman, but is spared and forgiven by Aragorn. I think the films and even the books are a little dry when it comes to the actual inhabitants of Middle Earth outside the large strongholds for each race. The regular folk could have more representation.

[@33Raylight]

Wait hol up, Matt was involved in the pitch for Saboteur? Thats fucking wild.

[@highlanderwins3328]

I'm gearing up to run a The One Ring game. My BBEG is now going to resurrect Smaug. Thank you, Matt!

[@fanboykc9140]

I never really thought about it for LotR. I came into it right before Return of the King came to theaters. Now at 38, my current friends treat Tolkien as a sacred text and I just never thought about "what would I do" or "how would I change it". However!!! I grew up on Star Trek, Star Wars, and Stargate and have my own "What if..." and What happened to..." stories in each of those universes. Fantastic idea and video though! Undead Smaug! Brilliant! I'll have to come up with something now.

[@spacesandshark2418]

Matt swearing feels like your parents swearing. I don't know how to feel about it.

[@luckyfire313]

So to the PJ movies I like the idea of adding back in Fatty Bolger and using him as a foil to Sam. He stays behind even though he was originally going to go with them. I would keep that scare with the Nazgul and then have the scene from the books where they rest at Farmer Maggot's house. They're invited for dinner, but Frodo says they can't stay. But Fatty says he's going to. This is it, they take the Ferry and they're out of the Shire. And he can't handle it. Sam realizes he can. So Farmer Maggot takes Fatty home and the rest move on to the chase scene at the Ferry. To the books? Honestly even if I don't add anymore significant female characters, just add more background ones and give them a little life and some lines. Show how women are people affected by war and terror just as much as the men are. Show more women characters that want to DO something and not just cower, how they want to fight or support the soldiers. Hell show some cowering to emphasize that feeling powerless is it's own hell from being made to fight, because I don't remember the books super well (I haven't read them in a while) but from what I do remember there aren't even many background women talked about, other than maybe as a big grouped lumped together as the "women and children".

[@trychydts]

What I would add is a complete Denethor timeline from the point the brothers receive the prophecy. He was a genuine badass who could not been bent like Saruman, so I would like to see more from his viewpoint: what does he see in the Palantír, how he governs, prepare for war, worries for his son etc.

[@GregKoziol]

My favorite moment from this stream that somehow didn’t get included here: Chatter: how do the good guys defeat a Nazgûl riding an undead Smaug? Matt: They don’t. In my version, Sauron wins.

[@Thatoneguy927]

Great points, I honestly feel like so many people have passing relationships with stories, which is fine if that's the level of dedication that you want to have with them, but there's so much depth that can be explored in these worlds.

[@Bluecho4]

Okay, now I want to run a DnD campaign where the villain forges a bunch of black rings, and dispenses them around the land to the corpses of dragons. Reanimating them as undead dragons, under the villain's control. (Fans of Green Lantern might get a kick of that. Black rings, bringing things back to life. "RISE!") Thirteen rings sounds like a good number. It would be like the next step up from the rings of LotR. Three for the elves, seven for the dwarf-lords, nine for men. _"Thirteen rings for the dragons slain, that they may rise again."_ It's a kind of inversion of how fantasy narratives go. Heroes go around slaying dragons and stealing their treasure. In this, the dragons are bequeathed a treasure and are unslain, then go around burninating the countryside, the thatch roofs, and the peasants.

[@Campfire_Bandit]

You've already given me my answer to this question in a previous video: I'd love to see the damage caused by fighting the War of the Ring on the fellowship. Aragorn would have PTSD from the number of hours he spent listening for orc ambushes, same with Faramir but add in his traumatic upbringing. Many times what soldiers sacrifice isn't just the time during the war or their bodies but their ticket to participate in the world they create. I think Aragorn realizing that he isn't the right ruler during peace would have been the cherry on top of his character arc.

[@Washeek]

Sure would be interesting. But you would be going against the central theme of the story. The theme of LOTR is basically that the world is constantly getting worse, but amidst that getting worse, there's always hope. It would be closer to the theme for example if you left Aragorn's good ending intact, but showed Faramir being unable to integrate into the society he painstakingly helped create. Why you should not touch Aragorn? Because he is personification of the past being greater than the present. He's a walking talking relic of the past, that's what's making him so competent. I'm not saying you couldn't break that central theme, but 1 you should be aware that's what you're doing and 2 you have to provide something else instead of it (which you do in this case I guess).

[@Hazel-xl8in]

“My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!” if i were the witch king, i would absolutely try and get that dude on my side.

[@deriznohappehquite]

That’s exactly why Gandalf conspired to have him killed.

[@trekbody]

So I'm not a weirdo for imagining scenes they way they "should have happened" for Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.? Rewriting them in my head is OK? Oh thank God!

[@mikececconi2677]

I'd add a banger of a Phil Collins ballad somewhere in the middle, of course.

[@headachepuppy]

I would be willing to part with my freaking house if I could play that Nazghul Shadow of Mordor game you pitched... What an opportunity they wasted not picking that one up!

[@8bitMages]

I absolutely wish they had done something like that with ROP, like you can show us something completely new. the blue wizards, one of the flightless dragons of the first war etc. then every so often cut to celebrimbor pounding away at some metal at the end of every episode. he wouldn't even have to say anything just another ring for the kings of men or the dwarves being built.

[@フレドリク]

"They gutted my father's work and turned it into an action movie for 14-year olds" -Christopher Tolkien

[@zaceeyore]

I went on a 3 hour long tirade during a road trip last month about how badly I want to change the first Black Company so that they side with Soulcatcher. There were all these small but super poignant moments where Soulcatcher showed Croaker and the Black Company genuine concern and respect that never were paid off and it’s one of my biggest narrative disappointments.

[@krymsonkyng5573]

You might want to try Shadows of Forbidden Gods or whatever it's called. It's a digital board game on steam where you play an ancient evil and take over a randomly generated fantasy world

[@jacobsargent5367]

If I had been watching Return of the King for the first time as a teenager and the Witch-King flew into battle against Minas Tirith on an undead Smaug, I think my head would have exploded.

[@oldschoolfrp2326]

I would want to make a Glorfindel game - expand upon him fighting multiple balrogs and dragons across the collapsing ruins of the north; there’s even canonical precedent for him respawning after death

[@KajenIII]

I really wish the rings of power was actually about the blue wizards adventures slowing sauron down

[@philthoreson7283]

I love your work, Matt, but I would disagree with you a bit here. If your job was to make original stories set in Middle Earth than by all means, have fun with new stuff! If your job was to do an adaption of the books, then the adaption should be as faithful as the change in medium allows. As cool as seeing a Nazgul riding an undead Smaug would be, I would hate it if that showed up at the Battle of Minas Tirith and they fought Gandalf on an Eagle.

[@Ozai75]

If you want to simply have the book transferred to the film then *simply read the book* Adaptations are called *Adaptations* for a reason. Being slavishly beholden to a text is the height of Thought policing.

[@philthoreson7283]

@@Ozai75 Then at what point does a screen adaptation just become "inspired by"? Is any movie about orcs and rings considered The Lord of the Rings? Of course I can read the book but I want to see The Lord of the Rings on film. I want to see the text translated visually. Not A Movie about Orcs and Rings.

[@Ozai75]

@@philthoreson7283 You're missing the point, but I'm not surprised.

[@philthoreson7283]

Likewise

[@jackodonail1980]

@@Ozai75 How so?

[@GeezusMcGandhi]

Along a similar vein, I have always thought a bene gesserit The Voice but not as mind control like in David Lynch but more how it is subtle manipulations and double speak and identification of weakpoints in their character to exploit, In my head it is a bit like Fallout New Vegas meets Papers Please, you learn and study your target (probably as you 'level up' you get some coloration on some words or you can mouse over them to reveal more info) and then choose the options to manipulate them to do as you wish. You could even use spice as a powerful resource or lives or the like as you are using future site to see the reprocusions of saying a certain thing. Great video, got me thinking about stuff

[@blakemorris8162]

Did Matt just casually drop that he helped come up with THE SABOTEUR!? one of my favorite games of all time!

[@CrumblierKey0]

You mean to tell me that your team was behind the idea of The Saboteur? I LOVED THAT GAME SO MUCH.

[@chappyhall6682]

Nothing holds more truth than when Matt says he would have us by the balls, he would.

[@lanxreedalenlum3706]

id always felt that more sauron was needed, id hoped right at the end he could pull his power together to reform for a last stand, seemed like a shame we didnt see him much

[@MrJoshuakirk85]

Survivors of the Grey Company are tasked by Faramir, Steward of Gondor to carry out a series of quests. These include simple things like hunting down deserter Orcs all the way to recovering a loss Palantir. Maybe investigate why scouts are going missing around Minas Morgul, spoiler, it's a wounded Shelob picking off scouts to regain her strength. I'd actually like to run that as an RPG campaign someday, but I can't get anyone to bite.

[@jeffjacques6579]

Lord of the Rings Online had a raid where the final enemy was an undead dragon raised by a Nazgul in the Misty Mountains.

[@NicholasQualls]

I loved how the excerpt ends with having medusas on every ST bridge.

[@mcolville]

Medusans, not Medusas! :D

[@NicholasQualls]

@@mcolville That makes way more sense, but now my headcanon is going with Medusas.

[@kythytil7460]

Heard your pitch for the nazgul game and fell to my knees at the beer store because thats also my dream game.

[@SpaceSoups]

3:00 (ish) I believe the game mention is "The Saboteur".

[@J0llyGrn]

I would add something related to the two blue wizards and somehow make their actions have an impact on what occurred in the main story in the background.

[@Dudeman23rd]

I love your ideas, but did you rig your light fixture behind you to act as a waveform visualizer for your voice?? That's rad as hell, dude.

[@cooperton4949]

Id play the hell outta that Nazgul game

[@denysbeecher5629]

On Elric adaptations, friends of mine just interviewed Moorcock on their podcast. He mentioned that some Eternal Champion screen adaptations are in the works.

[@Desslosh]

Fascinating. Man, I constantly imagine scenarios whenever I'm watching or reading something I like, but I think I have never paid attention to that. I'll do the exercise of paying attention and taking note next time.

[@AMRosa10]

A part of me would want to have a redemption arc for Smeagol. Maybe Frodo and Sam reach the cracks of Doom and a Nazgul awaits them. Unaware, Smeagol has been tracking them and when he sees the ring wraith he screams "NO! He can never have the Precious!" and he runs and grabs Sting away from Frodo and kills the final Nazgul. Smeagol is mortally wounded by a morgul blade, and lays dying at the edge of the fire of Sammath Naur. Frodo kneels next to him, crying, and presses the ring into Smeagol's hand. Frodo caresses his cheek and says "Smeagol, you know what you must do..." Smeagol looks into Frodo's eyes, a sense of peace and humanity flashing across his face for the first time in centuries. "He can never have the Precious..." He extends his hand over the edge and lets The One Ring roll from his hand, into the fires of its creation. With his last breath, he whispers "Smeagol can rest." and breathes his last breath. However, I realize that this can't be, because that would change the moral of the story that Tolkien was trying to tell, that even the simplest and purest of hearts among us can falter and fail.

[@jeffreyellingson7839]

Y'all should try The One Ring RPG. It's good.

[@harjutapa]

This clip explains why you loved the original L5R card game so much. I use your video about it to explain to people why it's such a cool setting and such an awesome part of the history of gaming

[@ignatiusthethird5433]

damn how is Colville cursing so cathartic to me ?

[@Robinwinghood]

For me, I'd dig an underground orc resistance in Mordor, or maybe further out to the east. Tolkien discussed the idea of good orcs in later letters, he had written orcs as essentially evil, but over time had ran into the obvious theological problems with that. I could even dig throwing this out as a possibility: What if Morgoth LIED about how the orcs came to be? What if orcs were a naturally occuring species on Middle Earth, but Morgoth had seen to it that all knowledge of such was destroyed, but whatever orcish hero we're following in this plot finds some incredibly old cave painting and realises they're looking at orcs, not corrupted elves.

[@Pit_Wizard]

My friend ran a Middle Earth "Fourth Age" game. One of the plot points was that evil sorcerers were running around terrorizing people with a bunch of Smaug's scales, which they could use as a catalyst to do magic that was otherwise way beyond them.

[@dgatos42]

what would i add to my lord of the rings movie? the same thing every guy dreams about: a minigun at the battle of helms deep

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I would add the connection between goblin and elf and the path that goblinoids took to becoming themselves and their many forms.

[@Hedron-Design]

I always wanted the story of the two wizards that went into the east. Part of me see them meeting a horrible demise and I still think that story has so much potential.

[@hannabelphaege3774]

Okay so there's this poison that gets a guy up from mortal wounds and lets him fight a while. We have a badass orc who at one point literally pulls another orc out of a fire and we see this mad max-esque process where he's given the potion and branded on the forehead with a mark of Sauron. During the battle of Gondor after the badass orc is cut down by one of the heroes, the burned orc pulls him to safety in return. Then all way in Mordor we get the part where Frodo gets spiderd, Sam fights his way up a tower to save him, but this time they have to escape in a hurry and Fordo doesn't get a disguise. The two of them cross paths with this orc, who is watching the burned orc finally succumbing to the poison. It's a bad way to die. He's preparing the burned orc for burial, removing his armour. The last thing he does is take off the helmet, staring at the brand. It's then that the hobbits come in. Sam is in disguise and Frodo is obscured behind something. The orc seems suspicious but it's left ambiguous what he knows. He gets up on a peg leg, hauls the burned orc into his arms and just says "Armour going spare" before he leaves out the back

[@greatgod]

Awesome. I love having these types of videos as well, I think it really makes the whole channel have content for whatever I am looking for. these videos are great for when I clean my room.

[@iGregory67]

The Witch King on the bones of Smaug would certainly explain why the Eagles stayed away from Mordor...

[@MaxHimbigger]

Can’t believe EA never greenlit your Nazgul game, it sounds like it would’ve been fucking awesome

[@thenatural1sttrpg]

Muppets. I'd add Muppets. Thanks for another chat, and for inspiring me and so many others to DM/GM. I've still got a lot to learn and I don't think that will ever change, and I love that.

[@andrewlance3898]

Do you mean Muppets as in hire Jim Henson's Creature Shop, or do you mean Kermit the Frog plays the Witch King?

[@thenatural1sttrpg]

@@andrewlance3898 I'd go with the latter. Kermit as the Witch King would be fun. I think it could be a really fun concept overall. "The Muppets take the Lord of the Rings"

[@Shazibee]

I 100% love and support The Lord of The Muppets.

[@AHeckman118]

I’ve always thought that learning more about the lives of Tolkein’s orcs would be amazing, so if I could add something to the Lord of the Rings, I think I would add an orc to the Fellowship. And an extra Nazgûl, of course, to balance the 9 riders for 9 walkers thing. Imagine, the battle at the end of Fellowship. Boromir lies dead, as Aragorn and my orc come upon him. Aragorn collapses, grief-struck at the end of his dear companion, while our orc stands on guard solemnly. “It was a good death” the orc murmurs, his eyes scanning the trees and darting to the innumerable corpses surrounding his friend, “and a grand showing.”

[@jocke6703]

Why use an existing IP if you want to change stuff? I mean don't you want to make the movie for the fans of that IP? Show the IP and the original writer the respect it deserves. If you want to do another movie, just make up your own world and history, do not ruin an existing one.

[@10kRats]

If you want the exact same thing but this time it's a movie, why not just read the book? That's a pretty boring world you're describing, where respect stretches so far that nothing ever changes. D'you think Tolkien would respect the vision of someone trying to copy him perfectly?

[@jocke6703]

@@10kRats That's a stupid answer. A counter would be if you want something different just read another book! There is enough lore in Tolkiens original work that they could make a ton of different movies without breaking exisiting canon. If you are desperate to change the lore, you could make a "what if...."-kind of movie. But don't try to push it like it is the real deal.

[@10kRats]

@@jocke6703 I dunno, treating original material as sacred is rarely the interesting part of an adaptation. I think it's a valuable exercise to re-examine the things you like and evaluate their different elements. Take a show like A Series of Unfortunate Events, that had really great elements being bogged down by ahering so closely to the material. Or for a show that has the benefit of having the original author on board, The Sandman made a lot of cuts to material that really didn't need to be there. A lot of what made The Sandman work was that only the most important elements were kept in, and the pacing really carried it imo. Or take a show like The Boys, that has made some pretty substantial changes from the comics, largely to its benefit! I think I also disagree about adaptations being "pushed" like they're the real deal, but I really don't have any substantial arguments for that position (/▽＼) Either way, fans aren't a monoculture and don't all want the same story retold. Aknowledging what doesn't work is pretty important if you want to appreciate something fully, imo. I can't really say that my favourite things on this earth are flawless, and that's alright. Hope that wasn't too much, this is important to me. You have a good day either way :)

[@jocke6703]

@@10kRats Yeah I think it might depend on the feelings you have for a certain IP. I have extensive knowledge about Tolkiens works and to me they are almost "sacred". And for this discussion I am probably a bit too influenced by the catastrophy (in my opinion) that is The Rings of Power. But still changing canon should never be an option, you can add to canon (carefully) and you can chose not to show certain parts of canon in the adaptations but you do not change it. That being said, I certainly do not mind changes to IPs I don't care as much about that is for certain and I can enjoy them. But We can disagree without either of us being right or wrong as it is our opinion :) You have a good day too Olav.

[@meowmixphd]

My first thought was that Bethesda owes you a credit for a central concept in The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim! I always wanted to see Faramir (my favorite from the books) be given a free hand, as the Steward of Gondor, to go out and bring peace to places like Umbar or the wilds of Arnor!

[@VundalI]

After being forced to watch The Twilight Movies, i had a similar thought to expand that series and continue the story ; to have a Young half human half vampire child, and her werewolf guardian try and track down a long disappeared Edward Cullen. Love the idea of the Nazghoul game.

[@adm5618]

Honestly, I’d have loved to see it as 4-6 films. I don’t mean, split the extended editions. But (and some people might find this odd given how epic it already is) I’ve always wanted the journey to seem longer and more arduous. Especially Frodo and Sam’s journey across Mordor.

[@JonathanMartinez-ei4up]

I love the idea of a resurrected Smaug (especially as a mount to The Which King), Brilliant. Something I would love to show in LOTR (and I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tee), would be to show that Morgoth in order to flex his power to the other Maiar, and convince those that followed him in his fall, is that he overthrows another world. A world separate from middle earth that is now shattered into a visible constellation in the night sky. And go even further by saying that the only surviving refugees of that neighboring planet came to middle earth in a ship that is now just seen as a mountain (because its so overgrown and imbedded in the land). “It was a city made to sail the sea of stars, a ship to carry the children of a broken world to a new home. Survivors of Morgoth’s betrayal. It was an arch made of mountain and crystal, Carrying trees and waters within its belly. It fell to Middle Earth as a burning star in the sky, and over time it’s people lived nearly indistinguishable from the other children of middle earth.

[@mitchellcaldwell6745]

I always wanted to see a RTS where you can play as the vampires, werewolves spiders and other nameless things from Tolkiens world as a race. That to me would be THE JUICE. Or make your own Maiar and customise it like in the new Warhammer games... oooft

[@antoniorezik4072]

Keep up the great work dnd and non dnd related. I greatly appreciate the enthusiasm for your company and content.

[@ayyohwinning]

that Nazgûl pitch sounds FUCKING RAD!! from what it sounded like it’d be a sandboxy almost total war warhammer-esque strategy game but instead of piloting armies and fighting with them in battles you’d be doing it with individual characters! i imagine some sort of rpg progression or something with different items and such for each character, that sounds super amazing. i mean to put it in colville terms, who wouldn’t want to play sauron’s death commandos??

[@kereminde]

I don't know what I'd ADD to 'Lord of the Rings'. off the top of my head. I've never really thought myself capable of adding anything which wouldn't sort of detract from the focus. Tolkien intimidates me. And the fans *terrify* me of what they'd do if I strayed from "the one true way". ... now Star Wars? THAT I have answers for. I'd absolutely want to see more Force-users who aren't as clear on "Light Side" and "Dark Side", even if I fear it would break the setting. (I'd also absolutely be game for *begging* someone to adapt Michael Stackpole's "X-Wing" books. WHY hasn't that happened?!) Hell you'd probably catch me just adapting the LucasArts flight sim games, and I'd ignore people calling it unoriginal or derivative of "Top Gun". (... because it'd be derivative of Ace Combat.) Then again, it's not the first thing (or second) I'd try to work on as an adaptation.

[@popedeavones6199]

Saboteur was like my favorite ww2 set game. I wish there was a way to conveniently play it on modern hardware I own. I’m constantly trying to get a group to do a resistance oriented style game.

[@ianboreham454]

Yeeeah... That's not talking like an adult. It's talking like an adolescent.

[@danacoleman4007]

My thoughts exactly

[@WallsofCorn]

I remember being a child and day dreaming about being a hobbit or a wizard or living in the video game worlds that I was playing in.