Wheel of Time Episode 8 (Deep Dive) The Weakest One

My thoughts on the eighth episode of #TheWheelOfTime.
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[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I really wish I liked this one more but I can’t wait to continue the conversation with y’all. Just please be kind to each other and respectful of each other’s perspectives. I’m probably going to take most of January off to focus on writing (yay!). But I’ll keep up the fantasy news for sure at least. Except for one week I’ll be traveling then it might not be possible.

[@Callmecel]

One small criticism of your critique - Jordan *literally* wrote Lan and Nynaeve like this, and that speech happened in the first book, along with Lan giving her his ring. Love hearing your opinions on these, though!

[@thecommoncliche5444]

Honestly it perfectly reflected the season: I had two moments (You can easily tell which) where I saw it, was so happy, and rewinded it just to see it 9839393 more times. And about 4 ish moments where I was equally negative and having to really convince myself that 'it was done months ago, they literally had no feedback yet, it'll be better in S2'

[@Finnssssss]

I think all book readers knew there was going to be some confusion to finish it out. We all know Book 1 is full of "early bookism" confusion for some things. Agreed though, this was the weakest of the season. Not that I thought it was bad exactly but what you touched on sums it up. Seemed rushed in almost all aspects. On another note...Square boats arriving...called it 2 weeks ago that it was going to be a fade to black moment right at the end so yah me at least lol You didn't notice Fain has the Ruby Dagger?

[@Alex.Holland]

I have this bizarre feeling on my take of this episode. Its both the weakest episode and clearly better than the ending of the book. My opinion of season 1 is that I look forward to season 2.

[@Finnssssss]

@@Alex.Holland In a weird way, it actually kind of is isn't it

[@tom-cz2jx]

I feel like having 5 untrained women kill off thousands of trollocs when earlier in the season a whole camp of trained aes sedai + warders couldnt hold off a few hundred humans is kinda unbelievable

[@LarenOz]

4 untrained. The Princess was trained.

[@DaleVieira12]

Aiesdie cant use the full strangth of the power on other humans by the 3 oaths and the untrained wemon on the other hand where not bound

[@David-un4cs]

I guess the assumption we should make is that Egwene and Nynaeve are THAT much stronger. Like I'm pretty sure the show made Nynaeve stronger than Logain.

[@davidmaxwell4696]

Nah, she didnt have the 3 oaths. She wasnt powerful enough to be full Aes Sedai. I get what they were going with, in that she was addicted to the raw power she got from Nynaeve but it still feels really weak to me...

[@emriksjliemoe1431]

@@LarenOz princess literally only got to the accepted stage. An accepted in a link with 2 powerful and 2 women barely able to Chanel should in no way be able to take down that army

[@TheLumberjack1987]

Moraine in the Blight: "Do not touch anything!" Moraine and Rand 10 seconds later: Touching all the trees and resting against them.

[@foxesofautumn]

That did make me laugh. Not much else in the episode did so I appreciated the chuckle.

[@RobertWF42]

Perhaps Moiraine was referring to the corpse they found?

[@TheLumberjack1987]

@@RobertWF42 She uses the words "don't touch anything" and combined with the knowledge from the books, where characters state that you shouldn't even touch the leaves of bushes I'm pretty certain that's what she meant. Trees can grab and gobble up people in the books if they get too close. The touch of a leaf can infect and melt a person. To me they tried to make a nod to the books by acknowledging that literally everything in the blight is deadly. But because they replaced the wasteland of the blight which only has an occasional tree and bushes with a version of the blight which is an actual non stop jungle, they shot themselves in the foot with that little bit of fan service.

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

@@TheLumberjack1987 i took it to mean that anything _could_ be deadly, even if maybe literally everything isn't, but at the same time sometimes you literally have to touch some things sometimes so it's kind of like playing russian roulette and something you really shouldn't do unless you absolutely HAVE to? (If that even makes any sense-idek) 🤷‍♀️🤔😅😁🤣 Loll

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

@@RobertWF42 also that, too - she definitely could have meant specifically just don't touch anything right there where someone else has already obviously been killed by something 😅😅🤔🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ Who knows.

[@MrBellsa61]

Can't help but feel like you need to be a book fan to understand what's going on, but also the show punishes book fans for trying to follow the action.

[@wokjock]

I think I know what’s going on as far as what’s been presented. Never read the books but my daughter and I love the show.

[@ICircuit64]

@@wokjock Same for me

[@NahlaAnwer]

Yes! I watch the show with my husband, I'm a book fan, he's not. At the end of every episode, I have to ask if he understood everything and explain the things he didn't. Some things really need you to have read the books.

[@Beast80001]

As someone who has read just the first 3 books, I like the show but im also not sure what's going on because of how many changes there are.

[@aj2563]

Valid point, I think we as book readers can forget just how confused we were on our first read throughs. That confusion is a huge strength of the series, really makes the world feels massive and emphasizes how many factions are at play.

[@TheLumberjack1987]

Seanchan in the books: "You can just surrender to us and we'll not really interfer with your life. If you don't agree to that expect no mercy." Seanchan in the series: "Child spotted, release tsunami! MUAHAHAHA!!!"

[@keto3883]

there were also some evil looking rock formations :-)

[@TheLumberjack1987]

@@keto3883 very evil and stubborn in their reluctance to bow to the empress, may she live forever

[@np9145]

@@TheLumberjack1987 ok that made me chuckle

[@Parasmunt]

LOL. This looks like another (Discovery coughs) expensive show being made by the dumb third kid of a rich Hollywood mogul as his birthday present.

[@joncohen8791]

Unless you’re a woman who can channel. Then the Seanchan will interfere with your life quite a bit

[@danlay638]

They did rand so dirty this season. Guy felt like a side character all season and I was ready to have his big moment to make up for it but nope, guy just spend half the episode making weird facial expressions in a dream state.

[@pavelowjohn9167]

I dunno, Perrin and Mat are strong contenders for who got treated the worst by the show writers in this whole season. Perrin in episode 8 really didn't impress anyone and as for Mat....RIP Barney, you were doing you're best and we appreciate it, buddy, hope everything is okay......

[@samgiroux]

I am pretty sure that is what Rand does for most of the Book series. :) Rand really does not talk all that much, it is SO much inner dialogue with him and Lews Therein.

[@Galohide]

@@pavelowjohn9167 Nah man this was the audience's chance to see the true power of the Dragon Reborn and instead they took Rand out of the scene and replaced him with the girls to have them do the heavy lifting yet again. The men have been nothing more than side characters in this series.

[@pavelowjohn9167]

@@Galohide Can't argue with that take. I can completely understand why people who haven't read the books think that Egwene, Nynaeve and Moraine are the main protagonists of the story. Why wouldn't they think that after watching these eight episodes?

[@saquibmohammad2860]

I really really really hate to say this because I'm all for female power but when moronic writers like this show has choose to reflect female power by ruining male characters it makes me want to punch them so hard and shove them in the misogynistic line. It's people like this who make this look like a zero sum game. Only one gender can win. We had 5 Amazing characters written well. Far from perfect yes but well written but comes Rafe and destroys it all

[@silversrayleigh1399]

This is where the "Who is the Dragon" conceit came back to bite the show in the ass. Why should we give a shit about Rand? How has he grown through the season? How is he equipped to do... anything? Flame and the void, weapons training with Lan, the long slog alone carrying Mat, the literally 20 times someone said "there's something special about you..." his growth has been nil. Now, out of nowhere, he's the most important person who has ever lived. We sacrificed his growth to follow others, and they get the starring role in the battle? He didn't kill thousands of Trollocs? What are we even doing?! The implications of this moving forward are potentially disastrous for any WoT narrative. If we aren't deeply invested in Rand, then we don't care about the series, end of story. Yes, I know that the Journey of WoT is about a wide cast of characters doing a wide variety of things, but if you don't have Rand at the center of it all, moving the narrative, it will fall apart. Maybe it already has.

[@kb-ih7ni]

Totally agree. I wish they only went for the “who is the dragon” just for first two episodes or so, then we get into Rand’s internal POV a lot more so we actually get invested into his character. I was NOT invested in a single person in this show. Awed by Rosamund Pike sure, but did I care about anyone, not really, not even Loial. Heck, I cared more about Steppin.

[@KabbalahSherry]

I'm not even a book reader, but everything you are saying here makes total sense to me, and I agree 100%. I LIKE Rand... but this show ain't made me LOVE him yet. 🤷🏻‍♀️😒 Sorry, but I honestly love other characters more, and that's a problem. I was more sad about the Ogier dying than I was about Nynaeve. (sp?) Not the actresses fault, mind you, because I don't have a problem w/any of the casting choices. It's the script. I can tell they have dropped the ball on so many things, and are focusing on the wrong stuff. Shame. 😬

[@wanted007ism]

Couldn't agree more, they have ruined it for me with this episode. Although I was hoping this finale would save the series but no. In real world you get yours hope crashed upon.

[@joetichenor3635]

it might be due to them rewriting the entire story to be about women. Did you notice the issue when they showed Lews? He was not the Dragon, the strongest and head Aes Seadi (spelling) but rather called the Dragon Reborn instead of the Dragon. Sorry but they made this story, whole tv series about Moiraine and the girls while making the boys, who the entire book centered on, secondary characters that were not that important.

[@Zetamen7]

The Dragon is one with the land, why wouldn't he be one with the show? No Dragon, no Wheel of Time, no matter how much Moiraine and Aes Sedai politics you try to inject

[@SmilingJack65]

I'm sitting here wondering if anyone explained to the show-writers that a channeler "burning out" was not a literal terminology, but a turn of phrase meaning that they'd "burned" the ability to channel out of themselves. It's supposed to be a self-stilling rather than a "I burnt my face off" kind of injury. I also 100% agree with Daniel that Egwene somehow healing Nyneave from death or damn near close to it with just about zero training was some plot armor bullshit of the highest order. I'm glad I looked up that Loial is alive in S2, but this raises so many questions on why he didn't melt on the spot after being stabbed with Fain's dagger. They also better not have flaming killed bloody Uno; he's the best bloody flaming garbage mouth boy this side of the flaming Blight.

[@belhanger8799]

Uno is filming season 2 I saw.

[@AverageAwesomeDude]

agreed, but i did kinda like the effect they did especially the last shot of Agelmar's sister, her face looked absolutely haunting

[@max8m1]

And here I was thinking people irl getting burnout were literally turned to ash from the inside out :

[@scottfree6479]

Rafe claimed to have read the books so much his copy of EotW was worn out. That was either a lie, or he spent all that time getting to know a story just to ignore it, subvert it, and otherwise disgrace the memory of RJ.

[@max8m1]

@@scottfree6479 my vote goes to: why not both

[@primebandet8937]

For me the worst part of this episode was the linking wilders somehow taking out an entire trolloc army, then defying rules set out in the books that you can't get burned out against your will while linked, and it also seems that burning out kills you. And then worst of all Egwene somehow heals Nynaeve from either death or stilling this is absolutely horrible. I do not have any faith in the show after this. If they are so willing to just throw away rules from the books and change stuff so willy-nilly with seemingly no idea how this will change things down the line then it just is not worth watching.

[@kristian-overguard]

Agreed, they have changed the whole story , its not even close to the books. The rights to make the tv series from the books needs to be sold to someone who actually know what they are doing and understand how this world works. It seems like the showmakers havent read the book series at all. Burn this show , sell it and start over, with epsiode one. to put this in perspective this book series is up there with Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones.

[@otsam1050]

Also why couldn't she also heal the other women not just Nynaeve or does she feel drained after just healing 1 person? 🤔

[@kristian-overguard]

@@otsam1050 In the lore the Aes Sedai can get burnt out in the meaning they cant channel anymore , their just spent. literally burning them is pure bshait. In addition the scene never took place in the books. Its Rand who is overflowing with power after tapping into the the eye that is a well not a stone tablet, and dosent know what the hell he is doing. he accidentaly teleports between the the trolloc army and the human army , he panics and accidentally burns down the trolloc army and then teleports again leaving the human army baffled and in awe. " was that the dragon ? holy shait is he reborn wtf" kinda awe. point is, the whole tv series is just some weird uncoherent bshait and ur better off just reading the books.

[@jonbaker476]

@@kristian-overguard agreed

[@domoarigato3000]

@@otsam1050 See you'd think that healing took a lot of energy, and that she was all ready drained from summoning that lightning.

[@lbds9555]

This show has absolutely starved Rand of ANY of his character growth, epic moments, and general story from the book, all for the sake of upholding the cheap "Who's the Dragon?" mystery. The fact that now, after we've finally had the reveal, they still rob him of Tarwin's Gap and give it to the women is absolutely unforgivable. That is HIS moment. That is the start of HIS real journey as the Dragon Reborn. To have deprived him of so much already, to then not even let him have that... No. Unforgivable.

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

Rand = white male, as such he doesn't matter. This show is about girl power.

[@victorvalandybernard7944]

@@user-bm3ts2ql6s oh please do t Start with That. I have my issue with thé show but dont Go there with the white make bullshit

[@lbds9555]

@@victorvalandybernard7944 It's not bullshit, it's an objective fact. All of the main male characters have been completely sidelined. Lan, the greatest swordsman in the world, literally doesn't use his sword after the first episode. Perrin's entire role was standing around, open-mouthed and gormless with the occasional grunt. And Rand has repeatedly had all of his best moments downplayed OR given to the female characters. Now let's look at the women. All we constantly hear is how amazing they are. Almost every episode they have some amazing, epic moment of unrivalled girl power. Hell, just look at Winternight; No women die on screen, but multiple men do. We have a shot of the old women taking down a trolloc in a forced "woman power" moment, but don't see any men in the village putting up any kind of a fight. The only male villagers we DO see fight back are Perrin (who murders his pregnant wife in the process), Tam (who has gone from being the second-best swordsman and taking down multiple trollocs in the books, to getting beaten by a single trolloc in the show), and Rand (who literally just shoots a trolloc in the back when it isn't even looking at him). Even Nynaeve, a woman with NO hand-to-hand combat experience, puts up a better fight than Tam the damn blademaster. And now, even the bloody DRAGON REBORN hasn't even been given his ONE single moment of power. His one epic moment. And why? So that it can be given to the women, letting them steal the show and make the men look useless once again. And that's not to mention things like Siuan, who was only in the show for a single episode, getting more screen time with her father than Rand got with his. The "white male" bullshit isn't bullshit. It's a fact, and Rafe confirmed as much when he explicitly stated that he was going to change a lot from the books to fit his feministic worldview. It's factually incorrect to claim this "adaptation" hasn't robbed all of its main male characters and massively overpowered all of the female characters into total Mary Sues. The show is painfully misandristic, and if the genders of the characters was swapped so that all of the female characters were getting neglected and treated so poorly, there would be absolute uproar.

[@stilljustaguy]

@@victorvalandybernard7944 the director said it himself. Open your eyes. They spent more effort making this show woke than trying to follow the novels.

[@meganega123]

@@lbds9555 I noticed that, too. But I thought it might had been like that in the books and the show would just stay true to its source material

[@najeebhq]

The lack of any defensive strategy at the Frontline city against the Blight is appalling. The fact that they have something so important like the Horn of Valere buried under the throne of the city that would be the first to fall if there is a serious threat instead of being in Shienar's capital is mind boggling

[@rickkopfler8447]

I guess it kind of makes sense as that would be the first place you would need it. However if you really thought this was the last battle wouldn’t you have used it?

[@alienhexican8017]

They completely destroyed any chance of the mythos surrounding the horn. The Great Hunt would never happen and be immortalized in song if random Shienar soldiers know that it hangs out under the lord's chair. How will there be Hunters gallavanting around the countryside? Faile is hereby stillborn, along with 95% of Perrin's motivation.

[@mr_noob5931]

@@rickkopfler8447 that would make sense if they could use it, according to the show dragon needs to blow it.

[@Ras137]

@@alienhexican8017 I wouldn't call them "random Shienar soldiers" They seemed more like the King's personal guards.

[@rickkopfler8447]

@@mr_noob5931 interesting. I guess I’m not watching the show close enough to have picked that up.

[@markpolo97]

There was a weird thing with Moiraine talking about how she was forced to "seize" the One Power, and Rand being told he needed to "submit" to the One Power. Isn't that like completely backwards? Women have to submit to the Power and be filled with it, men have to grapple and wrestle it.

[@rowing-away]

THANK YOU! this has been bothering me so much!

[@sensur1]

It isn't possible in Hollywood to produce anything that will make women submit to anything or anyone. You can't produce an adaptation that is truer to the books because it has too many problematic gender issues that Hollywood producers won't dare to touch upon. They're caught in a ultra progressive woke bubble and we the book fans and viewers have to suffer contrived and subpar storytelling as a consequence. And I'm saying this as a leftie myself

[@rowing-away]

@@sensur1 i understand where you’re coming from, but the differences between genders in the books were really important. yes women surrender to the one power while men fight it, but women are also in control of almost every society & women’s circles / queens are the norm, & women can join the tower while men that can channel are feared & used as monsters in childrens stories. the gender roles are so important, & im kind of upset they haven’t emphasized them more

[@LordMaskin]

They never read the books, just the back covers. I think this is just an April fools joke that Rafe has managed to pull off on Amazon studio's. He read the back cover, and the synopsis of each of the books and said... yeah I have read the books and understand the theme; it's about GAY, and FEMINIST POWER.

[@johntraker766]

I might be giving the series too much credit, but I think he may have been manipulating Rand to try to circumvent him getting proper control of the power, like he was specifically giving him bad advice. However given the changes they've made so far it's clear that anything could be out the window

[@planetzdr]

I was really hoping they would show Rand being insanely OP like when he destroyed a huge portion if not all of the Trollocs at Fal Dara… by accident. Instead we get untrained channelers somehow being able to link and defeat thousands of Trollocs.

[@Frostflame29]

You forget the True Ressurection by an untrained channeler who if I recall in the books was not much of a healer

[@shanemeyers5212]

Couldn't agree more. That would have been the one thing 5o save the episode for me.

[@jeremyshaw5425]

I don't know who they are trying to appeal to. Noobies to the series are lost and don't understand what happened. Book fans are, or should be appalled. It is not Robert Jordan's wheel of time. If this director and writers think they are good enough to change the wheel of time they should write their own. I am very disappointed in the writing and directing.

[@planetzdr]

@@Frostflame29 yeah Egwene is an insanely good healer all of a sudden. Maybe even stronger than Nynaeve by the looks of it. We can have Nynaeve and Egwene being super OP but Rand is left just having a chat with Ishamael who is now The Dark one I guess. Plus Ishamael is now his other personality Moridin (I think that’s right) for some reason.

[@kingblackthorn4195]

I mean what would be the difference between untrained Rand and untrained channelers?

[@jodyb2924]

The futuristic look at AOL is actually what Ireland looked like before the invention of alcohol

[@KabbalahSherry]

🤭🍺 LMAO

[@faridmahnad4985]

Cuz there’s a family guy?

[@joshrivers5191]

Sounds about as believable as Wakanda.

[@jodyb2924]

@@faridmahnad4985 no...because us irish have making that joke since forever

[@faridmahnad4985]

@@jodyb2924 aha!!

[@owloko1349]

It's weird to me that this show depends so much on the watchers already knowing this world before they got in to the series, and at the same time seens like they don't care about the book fans, it's weird and feels like a soulless creation

[@radrose4864]

Agree 100% guaranteed to aggravate book fans, guaranteed to confuse and bore non book fans. Though I think newbies to the WoT world overall seem to like it more

[@Jabbah123]

Me as a book reader struggle with some of the changes. But I enjoyed the series overall. But my wife who never read the books really loves the series. So i dont think people need prior book knowledge to enjoy the adaption.

[@catc8927]

Rafe said in a Q&A that he expected to lose WoT book superfans because there’s no way to please them all, but that he was trying to reel in people who maybe read some of the books in the past, or people who are general fantasy fans but have zero experience with WoT. So your assessment sounds about right - someone who picked up a book or two years ago (or read the whole WoT Wiki, like me LOL) but isn’t a super fan is the level they aimed at. Not sure it was the right decision, but it’s at least intentional.

[@j.fragoso7451]

LOL, Yeah. One example of this is the Seachan in the show. As a book reader I know who they are and the implications of their arrival (and hate that the appeared on season 1) but why would show only fans care? They do not know the geography of the world. The don't know that people haven't been able to sail past a cetain point in the Artyht ocean and comeback, the don't know about Artur Hawkwing or his lost fleet. Why would show viewers care about their arrival if they know next to nothing about the world?

[@bille4889]

Agree w Owloko. It’s interesting that Rafe counted on losing super fans instead of hoping they could see why the changes were made. To me, it sounds like he’s aware he’s changing the story too much. I’m not a super fan but was excited for this series bc I enjoy adventure type series, not a fan of romance novels, and this series feels much more like a romance series than the books. No, not as graphic as romance novels, but the deep delving into the emotional backstory of characters and overall gushing of emotions (Lan obviously and Perrin pouting the entire series) just seems to be too much. Oh, hey, Rand channeled once or twice and blasts the main baddy away at the end…huh? Yeah angreal…I’m just not looking forward to the next season. We need more main character development, not love triangles. Perrin is just going to sit there and watch Loial bleed out while listening to a monologue from Padan Fain? If I accidentally killed my wife, no kids to live for, I’m looking for any excuse to vent that pain, and picking up a pole arm and berserker raging on some evil dudes is the perfect outlet. No care about dying either. Not this Perrin, just whimpers and shakes like jello. Meh is my attitude towards the series at this point and I’m sure it’s Rafe’s attitude toward me lol. Still love the actors/acting and sets, just wish the story and characters were truer to the books.

[@therenegadebard3971]

How did Nynaeve survive being burned out? She was wearing plot armor. Plot armor is tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It must have been hard for Egwene to heal her without training. No. Super easy. Barely an inconvenience. She used the power of sad. But her face was burned off. But see she's a main character. But she looked dead. Look. I need you to get all the way off of my back about that. Oh. Then let me get off of that thing.

[@nathanmorgan3647]

lmao

[@nilsbylander]

The entire season needs a screen rant for sure 😂👍

[@MrsTavington]

Ha, this is the best comment!!

[@elijahchavez4264]

😂

[@MrSoresu]

I slow clapped.

[@TheLumberjack1987]

Yellow Ajah: "You can't heal death." Egwene of all people: hold my beer

[@adrianbundy3249]

I was actually thinking of the whole thing with Rand, the dead girl in the stone of the tower, and Moraine trying to force Rand to understand "this cannot be done, not for all the power you are holding".

[@VespoLiveGaming]

Anakin: Could one learn this power? The Dark One: Not from an Aes Sedai.

[@ShanShan-kw9hi]

Book spoiler - but yeah. Major change from egwene’s talents …

[@ErikMoroni]

Hold my tear*

[@DeadwingDork]

Killing Loial is a change that non-readers won't care about, because he didn't get enough screen time for them to come to love him, and book fans will rightfully despise. It feels so cheap, done just for shock value and getting people talking. After that, no amount of cool Seanchan teases can wipe that sour taste from my mouth. I'm not opposed to little changes, and I think the inflexibility of some fans in that regard is a bit silly, but this is too far. He did nothing wrong he's never hurt anybody ;_;7

[@pavelowjohn9167]

I've seen some attempts by people to excuse his demise in episode 8 by saying "Oh, the actor is on set for S2, he didn't die". But that doesn't fix anything, it introduces an even bigger problem ie. he got stabbed with the dagger from Shadar Logoth. If he isn't dead from that, then nothing short of total disintegration will kill him. I just struggle with trying to follow the though process of the writers, it's so confusing.....

[@kimwarburton8490]

Plus loial is integral to the book Without his knowledge of the ways, many key characters wouldve died in the books. Iv not watched any, but does sound like too many changes for me to enjoy, unless i think of it as a different story in a parallel universe

[@TheTataxx]

What if it wasn't the Shadar Logoth dagger? I'm just curious because they never showed Fain stealing it.

[@poeticdreamer420]

Loial is confirmed cast member in season 2 he was moving around on the floor. He is not dead. He probably got stabbed in a book 😂

[@tusharjoglekar]

@@TheTataxx they show him with the dagger. I just double-checked.

[@RusTsea196T]

The Blight LOOKS creepy and Moraine SAYS it's very dangerous, but main characters walk straight through without so much as snagging their clothes..... Other people may be consumed to cinders by drawing too much of the One Power, but if you're a main character, another main character can just wish you (but no one else) back to perfect health in two seconds. If the plot armor is this heavy, why should I become emotionally invested in the characters? This show was plugged as the "next Game of Thrones" (and by that surely they mean the early seasons). I'll give it that at least it's not "last season Game of Thrones" but it's nowhere near it's pre-airing hype.

[@scottdouglass2]

Is it actually better than the last season of Game of Thrones? I'm not convinced.

[@TheDemontr1]

it's not where it would like to be thats for sure.

[@Nepthu]

I've always had a problem with the plot armor in the books. For example, if you're a main character, you're instantly more powerful than all other channelers and a better warrior than seasoned soldiers. Experience counts for far less than being from the Two Rivers.

[@robbybevard8034]

@@Nepthu Being Ta'veren is literally lore plot armor. The whole of creation is pushing its will through you to make certain things happen.. Jordan wrote the contrivance into the plot.

[@engineerforthefuture8593]

This guy gets it

[@johntraker766]

People have already gone into great detail about the specific things they were disappointed about but to me it just boils down to this: At the end of Eye of the World I remember Tarwin's Gap revealing that Rand is a powerful badass, and with these changes you simply don't get that. Totally undercut that character's arc and a big part of what makes him cool.

[@killcat1971]

Gee you mean they are undercutting a male characters power while making female ones Mary Sues? Where have we seen that before?

[@judasbarnet8604]

Because this isn't the story of the dragon reborn, he just happens too be in it.. this is the story about the two most powerful ta'veren the world has ever seen.. egwene and nynaeve.. and i didn't think i could hate them more

[@Jeneric81]

It's not a bug, it's a feature

[@johntraker766]

@@Jeneric81 How many powerful moments does Nynaeve need? Answer: all of them.

[@Julius_Smith]

@@johntraker766 dude it's also so fucking unnecessary... nyneave already has countless badass moments in the books that are earned... really no need to turn her into Ray from star wars

[@johanlarsson9805]

1:00 I was also happy about that, but then they called him "The Dragon Reborn" instead of just "The Dragon" and all my joy shattered.

[@MattRobison]

That killed me too. Do they really not understand *anything* about this universe? It shattered all hope for the episode, which, as it turns out, was a mercy. That episode was terrible.

[@NicolasClark7732]

My reaction as well. My first and immediate thought was "but he's The Dragon".

[@judyweaver4460]

I am so glad someone else noticed this too. As soon as I saw that, I knew the episode was doomed. Just like men reacting to and seeing women channeling.

[@neriumsuitedher]

That's the least of it. It seems like they made Lews Therin into a male Lanfear & the other Bore drilling guy. Except apparently that is not how the metaphysics of the Dark One work in the show. From what I understand, there was no Bore and the Dark One had always been free, probably resulting in humans having free will, including the will to hurt others. So Lews Therin decided to cage him, because mAlE aRrOgAncE, and that broke the world and tainted Saidin. This is what can be gleaned from the scene. I am... appalled. This goes beyond mere butchery of the source material. It's vile slander.

[@shootingstar5802]

I haven't read the book, can you explain me why that is a bad thing? Don't worry about the spoilers

[@Silentnocturnes]

I hated the fact Perrin was married and not showing that he’s an apprentice to a blacksmith. He was supposed to kill a white cloak after they killed a wolf he was friends with. That took away so much from his character. The knife from shadar logoth kills you with one cut, you don’t survive being stabbed from it unless you are possessed by it like Matt and fain are.

[@Genspirit45]

I agree with Perrin but I also think he isn't integral to the plot until later in the story so I'm hoping they are going to focus on building his character up in later seasons. As for the knife sure from the books we do generally accept it as fact that the knife would kill with one cut, but there isn't any strong evidence suggesting that is 100% true in all scenarios and assuming you are talking about Loial he's also not human so there's some logical wiggle room there IMO.

[@ramspencer5492]

Perrin's initial setup was so misguided.

[@tanvirahmad5893]

This episode shattared my faith in the series.

[@thelastjerkbender2505]

Non reader here. I'm scared shitless for the potential Mass Effect adaptation. It has its flaws but it's a series with such a great story at its core. I'm scared Amazon will butcher it, the series has already suffered so much from EA's neglect and greed. I couldn't bear to watch another company callously ruin it.

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

@@thelastjerkbender2505 if you ever decide to read the books you will realize just how bad this show really is

[@johnguion8141]

I felt that way a bit after the first episode, but felt that the next six held SOME merit, so I will just hope that this was an anomaly. For my sake and yours, Tanvir. Maybe the sting will be lessened in 10 months.

[@lsdeann_3293]

The power scaling of this show is absolutely broken beyond repair. Forget Rand (the writers certainly did!), how can the Dark One ever have a hope in hell of defeating Nyneave and Egwene?

[@David-un4cs]

It is weird. Imagine show Nynaeve and Egwene in a full circle of 13 full sisters with an angreal? If they could do THAT with 2 novices and an accepted who couldn't cut it.

[@thewaterwarrior9817]

because *book spoilers*

[@lsdeann_3293]

I love the books (well... most of them) and have no idea what you're referring to.

[@thewaterwarrior9817]

@@lsdeann_3293 book spoilers ******** because that's not the dark one that's a forsaken

[@lsdeann_3293]

Yes, I know who Ba'alzamon/Ishamael is. That doesn't have any bearing on what I said.

[@alyssamccarthy7413]

I really dislike how they're portraying Egwene, Nynaeve, and their ability to use the one power without training - it cheapens the entire reason for people to receive training and the Aes Sedai in general. Also, what was that with Lolial? Sure he maybe in Season 2, but isn't the whole 'takeback' thing cliche and boring, especially when stabbed with the dagger from Shadar Lagoth?

[@judasbarnet8604]

Because strong independet woman...

[@otsam1050]

For some reason the woman Savior theme seems to be very strong throughout this series as well

[@daneg]

@@judasbarnet8604 maybe. I do think this series tries way to hard to be diverse or progressive, but to this specific point (basically the mary sue argument), there just isn't screen time to dedicate to the training of the women. Rey in The Force Awakens is totally mary sue material. you could argue that that one scene in the cave was as well. but the absence of the girls in the tower training and learning to harness the power was, imo, just missing in the same way that every character in the show is devoid of characterization. If you get one 5 minute scene per episode dedicated to fleshing-out your character in this show, you've gotten well above the average. it's just way too much plot to do justice to any character, imo.

[@MrSmokinDragon]

It is Rey all over again...

[@vanphoenix676]

When the episode started with Lews Therin being called " Dragon Reborn " I knew it was going to be bad

[@yoseansei]

Exactly. I'm surprised no one mentioned this until now.

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

Good point

[@shaikuritzky5173]

THANK YOU! That bugged me so much.

[@srdjanvitorovic5795]

That annoyed the hell out of me!

[@titshavenoeffecton12]

Yeah, not a good look.

[@the_well-known_stranger2275]

I have NO IDEA where the 80 million dollar budget went, did Rafe blow it all on cocaine?

[@MarielaQue]

This show should have been given another 10 million and two episodes. Directors, Cast Members, Set Design, Post Production, and other expenses ate away at that budget

[@NigelGrab]

None of it went to cg apparently. God those trollocs looked like shit in this episode.

[@opalhealer]

and hookers, dont forget the hookers

[@aaronc4899]

Yes, if by cocaine you mean Rosamund Pike's salary.

[@MellowHypez]

My biggest problem with the episode is that the confrontation between the dragon and the dark one was shockingly underwhelming. I was expecting some absolutely insane power and all it ended up being was a flash of light and the dark one fading away. It felt very cheap after all the hype.

[@MerinSun]

On this point, don’t stress ;) it was underwhelming for a reason.

[@brednbudr2406]

The tipping point was remembering how perfect Egwene was. Truly, the most pure incredible entity to ever exist in the universe. I think "the dark one" smirked at the end because he realized this turning of the wheel's Dragon was an absolute simpy bitch.

[@Wanderlenz]

As someone who hasn’t read the books, this scene was so underwhelming that it resulted in me having no idea what actually happened

[@ironmonkey1512]

Personally having a psychological warfare instead of CGI fireworks was one of the things I hated least about this episode, although having just finished the witcher series it did seem like more of the same...

[@williammullinax6130]

@@Wanderlenz don't feel bad, even as a book reader who has read through the series twice, I had to think for a bit and rewatch the scene to make sure I understood it.

[@M4tt888_]

I was so excited when I heard they were making this show. I thought this would make the WOT more well known and popular and I could find more people to talk about and enjoy it with. But now I'm embarrassed to even recommend it to friends. Its been building all season and after this I have zero hope that the people making the show are capable of adapting this story in a good way

[@JJ-nu8qi]

Yea i wouldn't it either.

[@joemeatballs3694]

It’s a damn shame

[@LordMaskin]

I hyped this show up so much; now I am just ashamed of myself. I should have known better, Rafe is why we can't have nice things.

[@Junya01]

They fucked up the finale on purpose. That... makes no sense to me. The original three books would have made an AMAZING tv adaptation, but they're bringing in change for the sake of change. The last two episodes were the worst so far, I'm so disappointed

[@LaurenWatkinsArt]

My husband hasn’t read the books and he said he didn’t really care about rand and was more concerned about other characters. Also he said he felt like he didn’t care about the characters enough or know who they really are by the end. Part of what I love about Jordan’s writing is how much detail and personality he put into his characters. You spend time with them and got to know them and care about them even when they were irritating you. This show missed the human connection with a lot of its characters. That said there are a lot of things I liked and and am hopeful for the next season.

[@KabbalahSherry]

Even if they hadn't made the mistakes they did, the fact that they tried to cram a whole book's worth of worldbuilding & character development into just 8 episodes, is a huge problem. They should have only covered about half of the book, so that we could have spent more time on Rand, especially. All that time mourning Warders/people (us newer viewers) didn't even know. It was well done, don't get me wrong, but in the end, who cares about Steppin?! I got more of a glimpse into his character than we did Rand's. And who even cares that Rand is the dragon... when people like Nynaeve & Egwyne are so powerful? 🤔🤷🏻‍♀️ Such a weird choice to make, and not enough episodes to tell everything correctly.

[@LaurenWatkinsArt]

@@KabbalahSherry I totally agree!

[@Ren99510]

@@KabbalahSherry Agreed. 45 minute episodes with eight to a season just isn't enough for a series this massive.

[@hardlife3844]

@@KabbalahSherry Not enough episodes and too short. Why would they lock themselves into some ridiculous time constraint. Wasn't the point of streaming services to disrupt the industry? Instead we get more of the same

[@sevnenteenloco]

Well not carrying about Rand is kind of a issue. The show failed if you don't care about him.

[@fredrickbass4994]

If they really killed Loial, I would lose tremendous respect for the show.

[@fenncarr5602]

You see him move his legs when Perrin walks into the room. It could mean he's still alive or the actor just failed to stay still. I'm also really annoyed that uno is almost definitely completely dead

[@KabbalahSherry]

Same, and I'm not even a book reader, but I know that he is around longer than this, and is a much beloved character. Even 1st time viewers of this show/world, are sad & feel betrayed. What are they thinking?! He's the only bright spot in the whole team.

[@the_well-known_stranger2275]

I already lost respect for it.

[@paulstanley86]

Shadar logath dagger sooooo.... he gots to be dead.

[@MrEmpirestate714]

He's too expensive to be left alive!

[@stephencruickshank3868]

Biggest issue…how far exactly did they think Rand and Moraine could travel in that sense of forest in 12 hours. Or the fact that neither of them nor Lan ran into…the massive Trollope army or literally any other blight creature. Second one? 9 fully trained Aes Sedai are overrun by Logan’s army of a few hundred. 5 non Aes Sedai knock out an army of over 5000 trollocs and…60 fades? What?!

[@Ayeshteni]

Trollope army. Heehee, now that's an episode I'd watch.

[@strat5520]

lol because our lord and saviour Nynaeve was there. Killer of Men, Trollocs, Expert Tracker Teacher of Lan.

[@SeanHillaby]

@@strat5520 Well, it was supposed to be Rand that did that, so.......

[@Yattien89]

As much as I hated the fight with the Aes Sedai being overrun by Logain's army, I think there is a reason for it. The Aes Sedai cannot kill or use the one power as a weapon except against Trollocs etc. or in the case of life and death. I cannot remember exactly but I think they only used indirect attacks to defend themselves because, while a terrible situation, it wasn't the final straw, it wasn't LIFE AND DEATH until at least the Warders were killed. Against the Trollocs there is no such issues and thus they could use the full power of the Power. Again though, I found that fight vs the army to be very stupid and I fully agree that 5 non Aes Sedai shouldn't have been able to do that...the only tiny excuse they have for it is that whatever her name was was fully Tower trained, apparently.

[@Ayeshteni]

@@strat5520 Because the women never did anything amazing in the books.

[@Sandman_113]

I'm gonna just simply ignore the fact that there is a series called "The wheel of time" and be happy with the memories that I had throughout reading the books. This season just felt wrong and I'm not optimistic that it's just gonna get any better with the path that they have chosen.

[@hardcorasapotinazaret1959]

Same here. It's done for me

[@jackmiller1405]

I agree. I'm just going to re-read the books and forget this show exists.

[@Sal3600]

As a non reader i really liked. I have already ordered the books.

[@spiderjerusalem7720]

It's the worst fantasy show I have ever seen, and that's saying a lot.

[@J_A_M_]

so the greatest swordsman on the planet never uses his sword, except in episode 1? how can you let that happen? and how would Lan not know how to track Moiraine? i have so many issues that i'm trying to work through (and about this adaptation too *bum tiss*) a woman who couldn't get the shawl would not in anyway ever be able to channel the amount of the power that egwene and nynaeve would lend to her, so why not let the Dragon actually be the Dragon in the scenario? i just don't understand the decision making

[@BlissfullWulf]

Not to mention that I don't think linking is taught to non Sisters, and on top of that I'm pretty sure that linking buffers the linked channelers from burning out...

[@peakflow1169]

I feel the show is terrible, their decision to not use any of the scenes from the book just boggles my mind, but when channelers link in the book, weak ones can become powerful from sharing the power

[@1lobster]

The whole show sucks

[@markodumencic8734]

Gotta have girl power yo. Someone should inform Rafe he can write great female characters without ruining the male characters.

[@J_A_M_]

@@BlissfullWulf good point on the buffer from the linking but that may have also been attributed to heavy angreal use toward the end of series, i'm not sure.

[@adamrivers3250]

Healing is something that needs some serious work as a concept in this adaptation. Just feels way too easy with AOE heals and untrained people Healing what appears to be severe damage. What was cool about it in the books (to me at least) was how Healing seemed to be an invasion of the body using the One Power, that required a decent amount of mastery as not to harm the recipient. It’s a dangerous weave and not to be taken lightly.

[@carsonbrink47]

It doesn't make any logical sense. They reduced the stakes for the ENTIRE series just to have a few "character moments" early on, but the character moments didn't really land because we haven't spent enough time with the characters. Like Nynaeve healing Lan would've been powerful, if it was the end of season 2.

[@JoaoVictor-rg3fo]

Yeah, super plot armor and anti death stuff just for "reasons"

[@nathanmorgan3647]

It's World of Warcraft inserted into WoT by a failed tv show contestant, now failed tv show writer.

[@brednbudr2406]

It was actually one of the most skillful weaves and complex as well. It drained the healer and the patient far more than other weaves. It had an entire Asha dedicated to that one use of the power. That says alot. But the show makes it seem trivial.

[@Xunre]

Rand heals Bela during the ride to Taren Ferry in Book 1 without without knowing what he is doing.

[@faridmahnad4985]

You need to remain true to the rules you set yourself, it is established that even touching stuff in the blight is dangerous, but one minute later they sit down and have a picnic.

[@damp2269]

I laughed pretty hard when Moraine said that, how are they supposed to walk through all of that without touching it.

[@elgranqenk2]

My God, I'm glad I wasnt the only one. That last episode was awful.

[@Miroshen]

All the episodes were awful, let’s be honest.

[@81llzvn]

@@Miroshen I am glad I am not the only one. As a book reader, this series does nothing for me.

[@elgranqenk2]

@@Miroshen Well, despite the changes, I enjoyed the first 5 episodes. The last 3 were bad. With the very last one being terrible in all ways.

[@halfmoon2069]

This show has a weird amount of hype towards it for absolutely no reason. It reminds me of MTV's show the Shannara Chronicles that died after 2 seasons. I mean sure the first few episodes were okayyyy at best but nothing really stood out in an impressive way to really keep my attention. I kept asking throughout "is the hype part coming yet?" and I kept pushing forward waiting for those moments of why it was even trending on social media in the first place. Don't get me wrong though, I can see why the books would shine

[@jasonc3749]

Agreed. As a book fan i really wanted to like this... but i cant. Nothing against the actors, i think the acting is fine, but the changes just leave me more and more disappointed.

[@Qutut]

Honestly, my main criticisms of the Episode after the first watch - The Books specifically state that Death CAN NOT be healed. Someone more powerful than Egwene tried and miserably failed. WHY is Egwene able to basically resurrect Nynaeve? Resurrection ALWAYS cheapens the impact of Death, so ANY death from now on is gonna feel so much weaker. - Age Of Legends being very sci-fi is is cool and all, but from the context of their conversation, that scene is at the VERY high point of the War of Power. Things should not be looking as peaceful as they are. - The Horn is just...there and people seemingly know about it? WTF????? - THE CGI OH GOD IT'S BAD PLEASE STOP IT PLEASE. - There seems to be 0 distinction between Saidin and Saidar, as (Man whom I shall not name) can seemingly see Moiraine's weavings. Not as it should be. Honestly, this Show needed about half an hour more runtime on each episode, or 2-4 more episodes and a LOT more time in post-production.

[@krennorec8861]

hey, based on the series, Egwen is more powerful than Rand. "Girl power" and stuff...

[@leoramirez3356]

@@discountskeletor3326 Thats fair, but then there's Logain reacting to Nyneave healing, which shouldn't be possible unless she also healed him.

[@WhitefirePL]

If anything, it should be Nynaeve that does the healing. There's so much wrong with that scene that it's hard to even begin complaining. I assume this is not resurrecting, anyway.

[@neiltaylor513]

Yeah, healed her, but bugger the other poor buggers, they don’t seem to matter

[@tobi79777]

@@WhitefirePL Not even Nyneave should be able to fully res someone. Who let this happen?? Why do a cheap kill-reserect on their only healer? Why was it even necessary for her to burn out? Also you cant take the burn from another, that doesnt make sense. I thought Brando Sando was supposed to stop lore breaking stuff

[@oisinmcphillips2090]

This needed at least 2 more episodes, and better focus on the actually important characters. We wasted so much time on Steppin, while Rand and Perrin got absolutely shafted in terms of development. I had many big issues with individual episodes, but this one was present all though the season.

[@kb-ih7ni]

I loved Steppin but I agree that we spent way too much time on him. I also think we spent too much time with the Tinkers and not enough on Perrin’s wolf-thing and therefore his own arc. Totally sidestepped his character. Then Rand’s coverage was writers went “oh crap we forgot about Rand”

[@kastrooutlaw]

make it 4 episodes...a show of this magnitude needs at least 12 eps...what happened to the era when shows had 22-24 episodes.....

[@akrkwood]

Definitely we needed at least 2 episodes more in this season and 4 more in future seasons.

[@laurence_lookmyr]

I honestly don’t even remember who steppin is… clear indication to me at least he/she got too much time lol

[@kewlztertc5386]

@@kb-ih7ni Stepping was cheap. The show has a large but tight budget. Brandon Sanderson, said they wanted to have Matt fight a Trollocks (to show his ingenuity), but they couldn't get the studio to budge in giving them 5 minutes more budget to do it

[@earthlingphilosophy3531]

Honestly I am a gal and even I can see that one of the foundations of everything that has gone wrong this season is the strange wish to say that women can be the Dragon. Females cannot be the Dragon because they don't pull from that side of the source and other source reasons. It would have been fine if they just made them all ta'averen that I understand although I actually like that Nynaeve is NOT ta'averen bc it gives a sense of free will and individual determination to how far she goes and all she accomplishes. Having only the boys possibly be the Dragon as it was in the books would have fixed a lot of the problems because then they would have been able to actually dive into these characters as a way of trying to figure out who is the dragon, their past, trauma, desires etc. Having Caemlyn instead of pushing the white tower would have also made the plot for season one make more sense and give characters actual development. Rand in particular, after all he IS THE DRAGON REBORN THE SERIES CENTRAL CHARACTER and we should at least feel like we know him as a person and care about him, but we don't. Problems with this episode specifically 1. Killing loial is a big NO, why tf are you killing your only non homosapien species character other than the ones exploited wtf. Loial is like the heart of wheel of time and is such an interesting character. 2. Agelmar should not have died wtf is happening 3. where are the forsaken, the forsaken are what made the finale of EoTW interesting and we could have had some good acting 4. where is the green man?? I get taking him out i guess but not the forsaken 5. there is really no reason to gentle Moiraine other than SPIOLER to speed up that one plot w Nynaeve 6. where is the pool of saidan, making the change to have it be a ta'angereal makes no sense, literally no reason for that 7. where is the dragon banner and why the hell is the horn underneath the throne. 8. let Perrin have a goddamn plot point thanks bye 9. The women channeling in the way they did makes no sense for the Characters, they don't have this capability or experience 10. I actually think they should have had the other characters come along and fight the forsaken 11. so power problems with Rand 12. Rosamind Pike's great acting cannot save this awful episode 13. WHY did Nynaeve die this is a hot mess Going Forward 1. FOCUS ON RAND AS A CHARACTER, his values, desires, development PLEASE 2. please focus on the two rivers five PLEASE more development 3. please actually try to follow the books even while combining and improving 4. sorry to break it to you Moiraine cannot be the focal point of the story p.s. please excuse my bad spelling random people on the internet who read this

[@marsanna]

Totally agree with all your points!!

[@5quepasa]

Except for Loial being dead (he’s clearly not), I agree with your points. Many shows don’t find their footing in the first season. I can point to half a dozen that didn’t hit their stride until season 2 or 3. That includes Parks and Rec and the Office, and the Expanse took 3 or 4 seasons to turn into the best version of itself.

[@redbeard365]

Amen

[@hankfrance4559]

I mean, why not gentle moiraine? Her primary purpose going forward is to advise the ta’veren. She doesn’t need the one power to do that

[@RandWoT222]

@@hankfrance4559 exept killing dark hounds with balefire, a forsaken with balefire, lanfear and bracelet fight, the whole mirror frame with the foxes and snakes, etc. Besides she is not stilled just shielded and tied. You cant feel the source still when stilled like ishy said.

[@synegg9414]

Considering the great battle scene we had in episode 1, was expecting a mini Helms Deep for the finale (I'm not a book reader). Shadiversity is going to have a field day explaining what happens when massed infantry assault a massive fortification like that, with no evidence of siege weapons, ladders, rams, magic, giants or flying units. Some boiling oil, rocks or other measures would have countered a Trolloc anthill and bought time for Aes Sedai or other reinforcements. Leonidas basically held a gap that size for days. Maybe we have been spoiled by the traditional GoT big battle near the end of each season, but this finale was underwhelming in so many ways. Still hopeful for season 2!

[@tom4115]

I laughed out loud it was so ludicrous. I mean if that is the bad guys level of battle tactics how could it possibly be a challenge. At least 100x trollocs would have died to Shienarians with their idiotic zombie climbing assault. the dark one does not, actually, have infinite numbers of troops.

[@joemacri5588]

Couldn't our heroes (the women) wipe out a Trolloc army from on top of fortifications? Why stand out in the open?

[@Silentnocturnes]

Zero thought went into this battle. Nobody read the books or consulted some experts on how to defend positions or key fortifications. The shiener have been doing this for many centuries. The books describe how everything they build is to defend against they blight. From walls to towers to how houses are built. Every little detail is important. The walls were weak at tarwins gap.

[@keto3883]

it s clear the trolocs play a lot of mincraft. you can see the pickaxe aof some trollocks and later on the entire wall vanished in the "5 strong woman" scenes.

[@adrianbundy3249]

I do wonder though, what happened in this situation where they would have book trollocs, something described a bit more fearsome than the ones we got in the show? You know, the ones that were twice the height of a man (as tall as they were to Rand and Tam, the were not that tall by half). The ones who had several feats of rather powerful strength and were hard to kill by even veteran warriors, even if the warriors had the advantage of winning, hard to entirely dispatch. They might have had the endurance against oil, and with that strength speed and size, jumped up quite a while. They would have had to use big boulders, and a lot of them. You know what I am most disappointed at though? The Myrdraal. They should be kicking some serious tail, but we don't see it. That would have been an answer for sure, if we got them in the show like the books, in that battle.

[@sohamj21]

I have been very supportive of the show and excited to see where it goes. But I really do not like this last episode. I hate the fact that they are changing major parts of the lore in this episode. [Book Spoilers ahead] Ishamael told Rand to surrender and not fight? The dark one was always free? Humans did not free him? And worst of all, you can burn out someone else by drawing too much through them? I distinctly remember that that should not be possible. Nynaeve explains it to the windfinders. All this with the bad direction, obviously weird decisions by the characters, damping down Perrin, and so much else, I was constantly pausing the episode and ranting..

[@tillalarrien9924]

Ishamael is a father of lies.

[@ChairmanSteel]

Telling Rand to surrender in order to channel was maybe the low point of the entire season for me. It's mentioned literally every time anyone channels in the books - saidar = surrender and flow, saidin = seize and control. Either generic, lazy writing, or else a fundamental misunderstanding of the magic system.

[@packatk7431]

What happened to the Flame and the Void? Rand figured that out with Tam and it was never even brought out. I'm with ya man on all your points. Some things could be over looked for budget or time but they really neutered the story with the decisions made with Rand. He's the main character and so many people I know that haven't read the books have no idea how important he is... he's a side plot in their opinion... so sad.

[@aj2563]

@@ChairmanSteel I know, I myself am baffled. Unless this is Ishy trying to lie and confuse Rand, but in that case, he wouldn’t have been able to channel at all right????

[@damp2269]

@@ChairmanSteel they have melded saidin and saidar since episode 1, not sure why though. also moraine implies she could teach Rand but just doesn't want to. really dumb. And finally they just broke the one limitation of the one power, cannot cure death. Not that hard guys... you had one limitation in the whole magic system and they wrecked it.

[@damienspectre4231]

Exactly what did LAN achieve by leaving the foretress and finding moraine by the wierd Nyneave mojo we've not heard of before? - He didnt contribute to defense of the fortress - He didnt engage in a single combat if any trolloc or fade - All he did was reach Moiraine and cradle her head.

[@tom4115]

Show Lan is a useless wimp.

[@sensur1]

All the men are useless or near-useless in this adaptation. This is a feminist power fantasy

[@mindartis4081]

This show sucks bad.

[@emilyk244]

@@sensur1 Men are so sensitive and emotional

[@Miroshen]

That’s not Lan, it’s an imposter.

[@joelstuckey3685]

Oh man I was so excited to watch the season finale. I was even having dreams about it the night before. But it was such a let down. My thoughts of this episode (and the season as a whole) can be summed up as “but why?”. “But why” have Amalisa defeat the Trollocs instead of Rand? “But why” have Egwene healing Nynaeve from death? “But why” remove the distinction between Saidar and Saidin? “But why” make it seem like LTT went to fight the Dark One for funzies instead of as a last ditch effort in an apocalyptic war? I understand a lot of changes are necessary to speed things along or to condense so many characters or because we have a new medium, “but why” take away the cool things from the books? The books are cool for a reason! I hope that future seasons touch on the important character defining moments, even if they need to condense the other stuff. Stop rewriting the books just for the sake of making this a new turning of the wheel. Edit: thanks for all the comments gang! I love the Wheel of Time and have high hopes that the show will pay off in the future! I’m just a bit let down at the moment but I’m sure I will get over that by next season. Thanks for the comments! 🙂

[@arjunr2645]

They COULD get away with all this if they do a shit ton of explaining over season 2, but... I'm not hopeful

[@damp2269]

removing the differences between saidin and saidar has been the cardinal sin on this show. no reason whatsoever to do this. Why even use the ying-yang at this point?

[@kityhawk2000]

Lol you missed some - But why have the horn hidden under a chair in Fal Dara But why wouldn't they have used that super powerful weapon even when the whole city is a stake But why would Ishamael allow Moiraine to live? But why would Moiraine let the person who can save the world who she's been searching for her whole life just wash their hands of everything and stroll off into the sunset????

[@TheWendelle]

These are some of the most salient points I've heard about the faltering effort they're making with the show. Bravo.

[@minothemandarin5167]

What I'm pretty sure saidin and siadar still exist there's a whole animated short explaining it and how come male channelers go mad if the dark one didn't corrupt saidin?

[@garrett892]

Tarwains gap and the fortress that has never fallen seemed a little too easy to break through. They held for like 5 minutes.

[@khanshiranyor3974]

"the city that has never fallen" this makes it like fal dara has stood against trollocs for thousands of years...which doesn't make sense b/c just 40yrs ago there was a whole nation between them and the blight.....

[@dimitrythomas4158]

Never fallen but goes down in 5 mins. By an army that gets taken out by a few novice Aie Sadie in another few minutes. Makes no sense

[@JacobMinger]

I think the whole conceit of “Who is the Dragon Reborn” really hurt the character development in this first season, and after seeing all 8 episodes I really feel like episode 5’s focus on Stepin also hurt. We only got bits and pieces of Rand throughout the whole show and he felt like a side character.

[@Skabanis]

Yup

[@Xamanez]

They had to shoe in “women can be the chosen one” while completely destroying how strong woman actually are in this story. I’m really salty about the tone. It feels like they have purposefully gone so far off the deep end to push an agenda. “The arrogance” line from the beginning episode and how they are trying to tell the story of Lews Theron should tell you everything you need to know. Makes it dumbed down to “men are stupid should’ve listened to the super duper smart woman” frustrating man. The original tone of men and women needing to work together for ultimate success and that even with the best intentions (like the dragon and his 99 companions) we cannot win unless we all work together. They weren’t “arrogant” they were desperate to save the world.

[@bretts8070]

@@Xamanez The show has become yet another scalp collected to push THE MESSAGE at the expense of faithfulness to the story being adapted.

[@adamlgiroux]

I like the idea of worldbuilding episodes like episode 5 if you have more episodes, but yeah there it took too much time

[@Jabbah123]

@@Xamanez there are plenty of issues with the show. But the complaints about pushing some agenda are just silly.

[@sandbags06]

My favorite moment from this adaptation was when Rand had his outburst at Moraine in episode 2 because it hinted at their relationship in later books, and I was excited to see how that played out on screen. The show establishes that Moraine has spent 20 years looking for the Dragon so that she can help whoever it may be prepare for the Last Battle. Now that she knows that Rand is the Dragon and that their encounter with Mr. Fire-eyes is just the beginning, my assumption is that she would not let Rand out of her sight and begin to prepare him for what's to come, and thus would commence their rocky relationship from the books. Instead, she just lets him leave, and I am left wondering if what I was most excited to see adapted will be limited to one outburst in episode 2. This change is.... concerning.

[@MrBreakdownBoy]

Lol, you do realize she lets him go his own way in the books in book 2? Then she meets up with him again at the end of book 2 just to lose him again in book 3 and meet up again in book 4. They are apart a couple of time before they really stick together longer than Eye of the World.

[@sandbags06]

@@MrBreakdownBoy This is fair, especially with how they are condensing everything. I was just expecting there to be some mentoring before Rand went off on his own. Plus it would have been nice to see Ran train at the blade with Lan at least once before going solo.

[@brown9779]

Ioooo

[@HoHhoch]

@@MrBreakdownBoy While yes, she let's him go in the second book, their relationship is MUCH more clear in the books and it doesn't hide that she's pushing Rand along to think of himself as more than just a shepherd and to accpet his role as the dragon reborn. I didn't really get that here. Plus, he's accepted it already. In one scene where Rand is shooting arrows, he makes a faster realization than it takes him an entire book agonizing over. The show has really, really, really undersold what it means to be the Dragon and all it's implications.

[@KalCraig]

@@MrBreakdownBoy She didn't let him go by herself and the context was different.

[@Moridin44]

At this point I don't think this show can be saved. An arrogant script writer who thinks he is better than the original author ruined a one in life chance of having a Wheel of Time TV series. I can't describe how disappointed I am.

[@Dome0824]

They really need to have more episodes per season, especially if they are going to add parts from multiple books. If not, in my opinion, every season will feel rushed and confusing.

[@kingblackthorn4195]

I do feel bad for the showrunners because they asked for more episodes but Amazon said no

[@joelnallo7252]

Touche! And I 100% agree! This is easily one of the worst adaptations i have seen. Despite it having such a massive budget.

[@joelnallo7252]

Changing from 8 to 10 episodes wont help this show. The show is fundamentally flawed and chooses all the wrong things to focus on. I have more belief in an armless person winning a push up contest, then Rafe fixing this mess.

[@coryjorgensen4648]

I'd prefer if they had done 8 fewer episodes

[@rhuanv]

A lot of writing is based on trust toward the one creating it. But that need to be earned, sometimes very slowly. Sanderson talks about how he is able to write giant books and people will be excited, but new authors do not have that luxury. So what happened here is that they tried to use the trust earned by Robert Jordan, while trying to transform it into their own. Basically they were trying to jump the queue, but they were not able to do it. What took three books to explain, they tried to put in two chapters, romances, dramas, angst, everything was rushed, and then the outcome is bland, because they abused the trust of the watcher. That's my understanding, at least. The series is not absolute garbage, but it's very amateurish and show a lack of depthness that was very, very easily found in the books. So, in the end, there was no real emotion to some things. Lan saying his classic line to Nynaeve? A joke, they already had sex, it was absurd. The sacrifice of the warriors? They could used the aes sedai first and maybe survived, so just stupidity. Moiraine 'losing' her magic is obviously not happening, so dumb. Allowing Rand to walk away, and saying to Lan that it was just the first battle? Dumb. Nynaeve dying to be alive? Dumb. Perrin being the most useless of all characters ever? Dumb. The horn below the throne? Dumb. Loial being stabbed? Dumb. I don't even know, man. It's a lack of understanding on how to write that is mindboggling.

[@radrose4864]

It was jaw-droppings stupid and frustrating. This isn’t even Swiss cheese levels of plot hole density, this is full on army camo netting

[@evanflynn4680]

The bit from the books that I miss was where the Dark One didn't know which of the three boys were which. Their dream selves were blurred. I liked it when the Dark One put out figurines of the boys, kind of roughly made, except for their weapons. So when Rand picked up the figurine that had a sword, the Dark One had an "ah-ha!" moment and it ratcheted up the menace a bit. Like, now the Dark One knows who he is! I also dislike the lack of reaction to the heron marked sword by everyone in the show. Sure, Rand wouldn't know about the significance of it when he first saw it, but in the books everyone who looked at it outside of the Two Rivers seemed to know what it meant and reacted to it. They should have at least reacted to it in Fal Dara. Like, not letting Rand even enter without both Lan's and Moiraine's assurances that he wasn't a threat to anyone. Heron marked blades are given to sword masters, for non book readers. Lan qualifies, but his sword is an heirloom from his family, so he wouldn't replace it.

[@SirStrangefolk]

When we didn't get it in earlier episodes I was so sure Lan would at least comment on the blade after Rand pulled it on him because he thought Moiraine was gonna gentle Mat.. but nope

[@evanflynn4680]

@@NimmelTheGreat yeah, there wasn't much logic to changing it from the three boys being possible Dragon Reborns, to the five of them. I so want to go into why it wouldn't work, but that would involve spoilers.

[@evanflynn4680]

@@SirStrangefolk I was expecting the Whitecloaks to react to it the same way you do when you see someone walking around with a gun. I'm Australian, so this is a much bigger thing than in the US. I get worried when I see an armed security guard, because I know how little they get trained. I'm also former military, so I don't have problems with guns, just with them being carried around on the street.

[@krennorec8861]

@@evanflynn4680 no logic just woke BS. Which is really stupid, considering how Egwene and Nynaeve don't have to be possible dragons, since their story arc is great and the books show them as two strong women

[@damp2269]

@@evanflynn4680 it's specially mind-boggling when you realize that freaking Eamon Valda is one of the children that runs into Moraine's party. Freaking Valda of all people would know what a heron marked blade means. Also are they merging Valda and Asunawa into one character?

[@TheBakaPuff]

This episode had a lot of "WTF! No... Just no!" moments for me. Not only was Loial stabbed, but he was stabbed with _THE_ knife from Shadar Logoth

[@TheMightofDab]

Nyneave/Egwene will definitely heal him early in season 2. I know that doesn't make sense because it was THAT dagger, but the writers won't care

[@GarrettMerkin]

I'm most pissed off with Moraine being Stilled than anything else they messed up.

[@MsLaBajo]

Wait, what’s the Shadar Logoth?

[@TheBakaPuff]

@@MsLaBajo It's the city where Matt found the dagger

[@TheBakaPuff]

@@GarrettMerkin YES! I really hope that it is a tied off shield.

[@everydaydissociation]

The end scene was the perfect time to draw the map for viewers like so: Zoom out of Fal Dara, panning higher and higher to a low satellite view, then retrace the parties' steps with text on the landmarks and go westward, Tar Valon- Breens Spring- TTR etc. Then finish on Falme and the western shore, and go into the Seanchan ships as is done. I could write this episode better in a coma

[@hhoi8225]

Omg yes

[@matthewbrown8679]

The finish, in particular Rand's final confrontation, was absolutely underwhelming.

[@Berndr]

then the book would disappoint you even more because is completely no secret and Rand is annoying and whiny as hell ... The show made Nyneave and Rand likable... and that says much

[@Sphm-sl6wx]

@@Berndr i didn't mind book Rand, but you're right Nynaeve is definitely unbearable even 6 books in. However, the Eye of the World did definitely have a much better ending than this season and it's not even close

[@Berndr]

@@Sphm-sl6wx I disagree, the book ending made no sense, particularly how did Rand teleport from the Eye of the world into the battle in Fal Dara ... Jordan never explained that strange metaphysics ... the whole eye of the world plot in the book was confusing and served no purpose for the rest of the story... If you paid attention you would realize that the ending in the show was clever but sadly missed the climax because the audience was not given previous information about Ishamael nor about the seal to the Dark one prisons ... if they did .. the fact that Rand just has been tricked into destroying one of the seals for Dark one prison would have been much more climatic and in line with the rest of the books and story ... but issue with the show is the supersonic pacing that has no time to explain anything, instead we are given x-ray extras instead...

[@JustScrapHD]

@@Berndr Rand was in Tel'aran'rhiod. It would not be hard at all to move from the eye of the world to the battle of fal dara. You are right that the eye of the world part was weird and confusing, but the confrontation was still hype. Especially rand at tarwins gap.

[@Berndr]

@@JustScrapHD Yes but only because Jordan always worked hard to create a build-up to the climax, we were always given pieces of lore and information so when an actual event happens we are anticipating it because we understand stakes ... this is where the show fails badly, there is no decent build up ... everything is so rushed that you are unable to connect with characters and care nor we get enough lore and information to get truly invested ... and it all comes down to pacing that is supersonic and too little episodes per season so no character get enough screen time

[@Adam-ul2nz]

*Rafe takes off mask as everyone watches the episode* - "I win again Lews Therin"

[@donaldcatanzaro5318]

In multiple (several) episodes Moraine: Who ever goes to the Eye of the World with the Dragon Reborn will die. Rand: Hey didn't you say that whoever goes with me will die? Moraine: Yeah, I'm going anyway. E8: Did I say they would die *there and then* ? No I did not. I guess those people will die someday! I'm Aes Sedai, I cannot lie but I can fool you.

[@jeffmay2550]

After the whole season was about who is the Dragon Reborn there should have been some sort of payoff and shown some of his power. It's like the women are shooting off fireworks and he's on the sidelines holding a sparkler.

[@falagar4567]

That tidal wave in the end wasn't intimidating, it was pointless. It would be laughable if the rest of the episode wasn't so disappointing. You are right that stabbing yourself in the world of dreams should be fatal, but the same goes to shooting someone in the face with an arrow, even if they have flaming eyes.

[@Nepthu]

I agree about the Tital Wave. What was it going to hit? An empty beach? More must be going on than explained.

[@brednbudr2406]

Just another classic example of really shitty writing. They genuinely just wanted to show something "woooow ooooo aaaah" to set up season 2. This show was made for people that watch tictoks all day. Shiney things bouncing around = entertainment.

[@RosstheBoss6666]

@@Nepthu there was one small girl on the beach. They were like “fuck this kid.”

[@lukesdewhurst]

@@Nepthu false hope in incompetent writers

[@Nepthu]

@@RosstheBoss6666 LMAO. You almost made me piss myself. Yeah, they really hated that kid on the beach 🤣🤣🤣

[@dealspeed6756]

Why did they take away Rands moment? Seriously, he needs a dam moment! And they gave his moment to a bunch of untrained women. Why? Have women not had enough moments in this show? This was meant to be Rands to show you how strong the Dragon is; instead, we got that weak scene with Ishmael. It's an absolutely horrible episode. Screw this trainwreck.

[@brednbudr2406]

Agreed.

[@jenniferstorm4037]

That quote from Lan about hating and loving the man Nynaeve chooses is straight from Eye of the World, where it also did not feel earned, but at least then there was an idea that the romance had been going on off page.

[@MppMajik]

Instead we saw much, much more of that romance blossom on screen. That was one moment I thought the finale earned

[@aj2563]

+1 this, definitely agree, I think the show did waaaaay better then the book did with this romance

[@strydergategames7039]

They could have built the needed relationship development into that month of travel, but the most we got was the reference to her eating at the Warder's fire every night. Even after that month on the road together they're still just flirty? It was much better implied in the books, as with just about everything else in S1.

[@aj2563]

@@strydergategames7039 yeah hard disagree man, I don’t know what book you read. It came up so out of nowhere, like of course, felt very forced and like everyone in the party needs to have a romantic relationship with another. Not surprised by your reply, you seem to be one that doesn’t want to give the show credit for anything based on your other comments. Blind dogma to a book series that had tons of flaws, sad really. Be open to change and adaptation, or find the world passing you by

[@OhAlice1951]

I think the execution was the problem. The longing eye contact and hand holding made it all too heavy and really pulled me out of the scene. Too much too soon, even if the words were right. If he’d said it while watching the soldiers get into formation, as if realizing he may not live to say it later, or done a classic eye block to show the realization of his love was a heavy burden, I would have believed it more. It was the right scene, but with acting laid on so thick.

[@melanieg760]

My chief complaint about the show is if you arent a book reader, its very difficult to understand what is going on. Watched it with my sister who didn't read them and she was thoroughly confused. Theres no character development or growth, no reason to care about the lives of any of the characters. This episode specifically was just trash. Whole episode I just kept saying wtf. WTF?? Had they followed the book, it would have been SO much better. This episode felt like the creators read just the first book and tried to remake it with no consideration for subsequent books. I was SO disappointed. Wish they would have done a few more episodes to allow for more development.

[@kevlar1482]

Exactly. Like why would you give a crap if Loial got stabbed? Oh no, the big goofy looking guy with the deep voice who did nothing, had no character development, and no details on what even his race is maybe probably didn't die? OH NO!

[@Yetizod1]

This right here, does not get talked about enough. My wife watched it and has never read the books. She didn't understand why Perrin and Mat were even in the story. Thought they should've just been cut. Rand was a block of wood for almost the entire first season, so she'd have cut him too if not for the last episode where he suddenly is the chosen one. They are constantly not explaining things in the show as though they expect you to have read the books. She hated it.

[@kriplaniankit774]

When I first saw Lews, I was like finally the prologue, man was I disappointed.

[@KabbalahSherry]

Yeah I was hoping we'd get at least most of the background story told re: what happened w/Lewes, but like everything else, they rushed things. 😐 smh

[@steveo7265]

That prologue was the worst scene in the series for me. The female Aes Sedai knew his plan, didn't like it, knew it would fail without their help, knew he was going to do it anyway, decided they would try to pick up the pieces after his failure... Maybe help him come up with a different plan? Maybe help him with his plan if you've got nothing better.

[@kriplaniankit774]

@@steveo7265 Yes I totally agree, in my opinion RJ has a tendency to villify his female characters.

[@anomanderrake9899]

@@kriplaniankit774 Who said that was RJ’s work? That was what was presented in the show and not the book series

[@kriplaniankit774]

@@anomanderrake9899 they've amplified what's in the books, the women Aes Sedai did indeed deny LTT to help and went their way with that plan of overpowering the dark one, which in my opinion is really arrogant.

[@sfscspresidentjonschwark9428]

“This dumping of the heart, if it was toned down a bit, could have really LAN-ded” - Hahaha I see what you did there!

[@ffxivmage]

Read the interviews that Rafe did recently. He says he cannot wait to see the "deep pain" of the book readers when he starts to kill of characters from the main cast (says it is too expensive to carry them all). Also, they worked very hard on making sure this does not become "Rand's Story", so they reduced his role to give the others a chance to shine.

[@bryce0110]

This just feels like a complete misrepresentation of what Rafe said in that interview. He said he would be killing characters that don't die in the books due to not being able to keep actors for side characters for very long (we'll probably also see many characters just leave and never appear again for the same reason.) He did not say he was not trying to make this "Rand's Story." He said that the first book is Rand-centric and his goal was to make it more of an ensemble like the later books are to stay consistent. Whether or not that worked out is debatable, but it is a good idea for sure.

[@ffxivmage]

@@bryce0110 Quoted from the Comicbook TV article: "Judkins: One of the guiding adaptation points of the first season that we had was to take this from being *Rand's story*, like it is in the first book, and make it an ensemble story because the whole series of The Wheel of Time books are very much an ensemble story, not a Rand story."

[@bryce0110]

@@ffxivmage Except he's right. The books very much are an ensemble story. Yeah it's focused a lot towards Rand, but he did not say he was taking that aspect away.

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

@@bryce0110 That's exactly what I think happened. Rand is still obviously very central, and very important. But the other characters are also important too, just in other ways.

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

@@ffxivmage You literally just proved the other commenter's point, not yours. They didn't say they were making it any less about Rand, they just said they wanted it to be clear that it is also about the other characters too, and not JUST about Rand alone. It's like the difference between writing a book in third-person versus writing it in first-person. It doesn't necessarily change who the main character is at all, but it can absolutely affect exactly what or who all else (beyond just the main character themself) can or can't be seen by the outside-audience observing the story.

[@Theutus2]

Amazon has absolutely trashed a series I grew up with. It was a chore watching the last 3 episodes, I literally forced myself to watch them for completions sake.

[@GirlWithTheScarf]

Hey Daniel! Small request from a new book reader: when you do your spoilery series summary, could you please tag what books you’re spoiling in each segment (maybe on screen) so I know when to tune out/in? Managed to get through books 1-3 (LOVING IT) during the show release time and want to get into spoiler chat without being spoiled for the whole series! 😎 I was disappointed by the show but so glad it motivated me to get into reading the series after years of intimidation. Love your content- hope you have a great holiday season!! ❤️❤️

[@cottonbud7906]

Even a new book reader has seen how mediocre episode 8 was...Rafe shame on you!!

[@Lattro7]

Yes please! I’ve even been scared to watch the end of these deep dives as I’ve only just started book 4 and want absolutely nothing spoiled!

[@mavihs26]

I have commenter this also on previous videos I really hope he sees this im in the exact same boat!

[@alexeasley5931]

The show, as it stands, will spoil nothing for the books. The channeling and its rules are fundamentally different. The dreams and their rules are different. The Ways are fundamentally different. The geography is different. The history is different. The Seanchan are different (that hook at the end with the painted people? Yeah, I can tell who they're supposed to be, and I'm secondhand offended by it). Now that you know Rand is the Dragon, nothing can be spoiled. They're different stories.

[@danielrowley9358]

Yes, very good idea.

[@Temos_alMeara]

I was trying to watch the series as a different turning of the wheel or a portal stone reality. After this episode I’ve decided it’s being told by a future Gleeman trying to piece together a story from surviving fragments and rumor. The proliferation of gossip and rumor in the books being frustratingly close to reality. And as Thom tells Elayne: In the next age people might think someone else was the hero, even himself. (Thank you @Nikola Blagojevic for the lore correction.)

[@arenkai]

Your coping mechanism is well oiled. I like it. I am not as fortunate...

[@bnikolab]

If you're referring to the books with that last one, I'm actually just at that point in the books. It's in The Shadow Rising, and it's Thom talking to Elayne and telling her that a future telling might leave Elayne or anyone else as the hero of the story.

[@Temos_alMeara]

@@bnikolab Thank you! Might be time for another reread.

[@bnikolab]

@@Temos_alMeara It's kind of funny that I just finished that particular chapter. What are the odds...

[@bukay5861]

I get trying to justify it but if we have to go through this much mental gymnastics to try and explain the shows horrible decisions it might just be a bad show lol

[@afilthycasualplays4007]

Honestly, I can forgive most changes for an adaptation as long as the change makes sense. Meeting Min in Fal Dara? I can understand that as Baerlon was cut for brevity. Meeting Loial in Tar Valon? I can understand that for similar reasons, but the fact that he was still chased by the populace into hiding in a city that should (by book standard lore) know FULL WELL what Ogier are makes the choice a bit...baffling to me. That being said, altering the basics of the magic system the world is built on kinda pisses me off a bit. I cannot for the life of me find an example online for some reason, so maybe I'm remembering wrong but...I'm pretty sure there are safeguards in place (not made by trained sisters, safeguards LITERALLY built in to the magic system) to keep the leader of a circle from drawing in enough of the power through the other members to burn them out. The fact that this happened to serve a fake out death of Nynaeve showed me the writers have little knowledge of the source material. That, or the change was deliberately made despite constant reassurances that they were going to keep the "spirit" of the books intact. I REALLY hated this episode and this inclusion is making me judge the other changes much more harshly.

[@krennorec8861]

not to mention how it takes training to link together. Training that none of the women have, since linking is only learned when you are already accepted. But hey, who cares. Lets take the last chance to show how powerful Rand actually is and turn the whole battle (where men were destroyed in an hour) in a demonstration of "girl power"

[@damp2269]

I'm not entirely sure but I think what you mentioned is explained when Athan'an Miere are taught how to link. I have been reading the books back to back pretty fast so it all kind of blends but I know the safeguard exists so it can't be imagined if more people think the same thing.

[@call_me_koda5674]

I keep seeing this but in the last book, Graendal burns out multiple women in a circle bc shes drawn too much power. Maybe just a forsaken thing? I think when Ahvienda is linked she knows how far shes pushing people and holds back from doing that exact thing.

[@afilthycasualplays4007]

@@call_me_koda5674 See, I remember her exhausting them to the point where they can no longer hold the one power. This I can remember multiple times like when the bubble of evil happens in the Aes Sedai camp and Nynaeve is kept in a circle all night. I seem to recall Avienda's main worries were because she was in control of the circle, and that resulted in the other members getting ambushed and killed so she had to remain vigilant of their feelings to know if they were in danger. I still can't find an example online but I think @Damp is correct. I believe it was described in the Path of Daggers when they were assuring the Sea Folk that women couldn't be dragged into a circle against their will and couldn't be burned out by the leader drawing too much of the power through them.

[@Ellis_Hugh]

Alright, I have some questions (for those of you out there who champion this show or are able to make some sense out of it at all). So Nynaeve reveals that Moiraine has a 'tell' that allows her to be tracked, a tell that Fades and Lan himself seem to have missed over the past few DECADES but Nynaeve picked up the first time she attempted to track them. What was this 'tell'? Surely it's real thing that can be explained and not just some deus ex machina shoe-horned in to pull the writers out of yet another hole they had dug for themselves... Did Loial actually do ANYTHING in this first season, besides sporting a bad Orphan Annie wig? They didn't even use him to open the Waygates, since apparently you now need use of the One Power to do that... and does that mean that Padan Fain can suddenly channel? Are there actually any rules for magic in this version of the story? Apparently Nynaeve can heal people from the brink of death in some sort of healing 'wave' that doesn't even require her to know what the wounds are, much less actually weave the flows necessary to heal them... but now, apparently untrained channelers can also bring people back from the dead (despite the books going out of their way to expressly state that that was impossible). This opens up an awful lot of doors moving forward as everybody essentially gets a 'get out of jail free' card if there's a channeler around (even an untrained one)... that is, unless the writers later 'forget' that they introduced this reality as part of their new canon. Also apparently anyone can link, even if they don't actually know how to channel. I keep seeing threads of power coming out of the sky and flowing into channelers when they use their power (though not every time, it seems to be pretty random, depending on whether or not they are outside). Where are these threads coming from? Moiraine says that all records of the Eye of the World (which is apparently just a place in the Blight where one of the Dark One's seals is kept and nothing more) was purged out of the White Tower by darkfriends. So apparently that's a thing, darkfriends just running around in the White Tower committing all sorts of vandalism and destruction of property? Apparently the BA won't be much of a surprise after all... In an interview, Rafe said that he changed everything about the battle in Fal Dara because he thought it wasn't 'fair' that Rand got to do all of the cool stuff. Since what Rafe considers 'fair' is apparently the story's guiding light and not the actual source material, what other major events can we expect to be passed along to others? After all, Rand does some pretty important things and we have lots of characters whom have unfairly been given less to do than the Dragon Reborn.

[@stilljustaguy]

So Egwene can bring people back from death. With absolutely no training lol. Edit: I mean why would any potential channeler go to the tower? If they can just magically do anything! With out any training 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Salvationman51]

Damn wilders thinking they know best XD

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

Reminds me of the abortion we know as the newest Star Wars trilogy

[@rauschman3691]

Hence why this series will be detested by any real fan of the books. It's total trash that makes no sense. Totally mangles the story and creates the usual crap everyone hates, but of course, it'll be the fan's fault when it bombs.

[@JainaSoloB312]

@@user-bm3ts2ql6s Except for that's how the Force has always worked, the Jedi wouldn't take younglings away from their homes if those younglings couldn't accidentally level a city block in a sudden burst of emotion. You don't need training to use the Force, you need training to learn everything else about it. The One Power, it seems, is different, where you need to be taught how to open yourself up to the Source before you can do even the most basic forms of magic (unless your life is in danger? as we learned in this episode)

[@oskarpalus2846]

@@rauschman3691 technically, its not that it doesnt make sense, becouse show, unlike books, never established that very strong channelers need training just as weaker ones, with dragon cheating a bit in that regard. so they can handwave it as "oh, shes soo good she can do it all without any training" and they could still be internally consistent. Would that be accurate to books? no. Would that leave space for meaningful progression in future seasons? also no.

[@Accolonian]

The show killing Loial while Perrin is being scared off by a bat kinda sums up this episode for me.

[@MagusMarquillin]

Loial was stabbed and was lying pretty still, but I'm assuming he's probably going to be revealed to be badly wounded in season 2. It just seems like too much effort to introduce him only to reunite the characters and guide them through the ways, I doubt they're that dumb.

[@Bacchian]

@@MagusMarquillin Of course they'll Heal him. They just healed Nynaeve after her brain was microwaved. Getting stabbed in the heart with the Shadar Logoth dagger is barely an inconvenience.

[@MagusMarquillin]

@@Bacchian Well, I didn't say they weren't dumb sometimes, just a different kind of dumb. 😏

[@michaelvickery7390]

I think the fact that they aren't using any dialogue from the books is really troubling. It screams arrogance and hubris. Jordan was an incredible writer. You don't have to use nothing but stuff from the books but not using any whatsoever is ridiculous

[@KabbalahSherry]

Agreed. 😬 Game of Thrones was at its BEST when they would rip scenes/dialogue directly from the books, which were already practically perfect. The moment those stupid showrunners came up w/ideas on their own, and changed the story so much (Arya killing the Night King?!)... It ruined absolutely everything, and nobody gave AF anymore. 🤷🏻‍♀️😒 And that's honestly kind of where I am right now, and I haven't even read the Wheel of Time books. But I can TELL, just as a viewer, that they have changed the story *too* much here, and focused on the wrong characters. By the time they got to Rand being the dragon, none of Us could give a sh*t, cuz we have no attachment to this kid yet. They hadn't shown us WHY he's so special. They hadn't shown us any of his growth or development, and in the finale, gave his powers to others anyway. So who even should care about Rand?! What difference does it make that he's the dragon, when non-Aes Sedai like Nynaeve & Egwyne can channel like that?! ☝🏼🥴 LMAO

[@LaurenWatkinsArt]

Blood and bloody ashes they aren’t even cursing the same way they do in the books.

[@SeiShinCasios]

We have the scene between Lan and nynaeve in the last episode, that's almost directly from the books, but not infront of the 7 broken towers but just randomly thrown in without context after they just spend the night together..

[@joshrivers5191]

@@KabbalahSherry I knew when I saw the trailer's this was a cash grab by Amazon. But I had hope. I knew they were going to change a lot but this isn't even Wheel Of Time. Robert Jordan would be disgusted. This is like season 7 and 8 of Game Of Thrones but 10 times worse. I got Amazon Prime to watch this show and the moment I finished the final episode I canceled my subscription. Jeff Bezos ain't getting another cent from me. If you don't cancel your subscription they will know they can keep on putting out low quality content as long as they're ripping off a real artist's work that people already love.

[@samgiroux]

I personally feel the same way. Yet, I understand why they can't in order to get the audience size they need to be successful. WOT has a HUGE following, but it is still a large task to take on for those not naturally predestined to enjoy high fantasy. Bringing the language down a bit makes it more accessible. Also, remember that this is an adaptation and not a retelling of the series...another turning of the wheel as many are saying. So, scenes no longer happen the same as before and some details change, but the heart and soul of the series is there, and I am optimistic it will grow in season 2 and beyond. You may not like or want there and I respect that, but that is what we have.

[@joemacri5588]

**Spoilers!!! Lan never comments on the Heron Marked blade and never starts to train Rand. Nyneave has no block. Eye of the World isn't in an oasis protected by the Green Man. No Horn or banner at the Eye. Rand doesn't destroy Trolloc army (Girl Power!) Only one Forsaken shows. No Elayne or traipsing though Andor. Moiraine activates the Ways, not Loial. Mat disappears. Dagger is suddenly with Padan Fain. No Elyas to guide Perrin. Perrin is married, taller than Rand AND kills his wife. Perrin and Egwene are captured by Whitecloaks in the shadow of Tar Valon. Gay Warders. Moraine is stilled. It's too bad that the producers of this mess didn't have say, a series of books to base this on.

[@devtech2025]

You forgot the no Balthemel or Aginor and instead we got Ishmael ? huh

[@nickjunes]

If Moraine thinks this is just the first of the last battle then why would she let him go????

[@adrianbundy3249]

That is actually a book accurate dilemma at the end of the first book, the eye of the world. Damn, one of the few things they aced and I didn't even realize it. Well, in the book, there's a great explanation for that, but in this show, I don't think that same one will fly. But then again, she is shielded from the source in this one, so maybe it will be just as explained as, she can't.

[@nickjunes]

@@adrianbundy3249 No wonder people didn't like the end of the book either lol. It really does seem crazy.

[@adrianbundy3249]

@@nickjunes No, it made a lot of sense in the books, due to who rand was. And people liked that book... And it's ending. I highly recommend you read what happened in the books after the confrontation with the dark one at the end of the first book, so I wouldn't want to spoil the specifics here for you.

[@nickjunes]

@@adrianbundy3249 I read it about 20 years ago. I can't remember now.

[@adrianbundy3249]

@@nickjunes It was playing on like a book of build up from Rand and the two river's stubborn nature, and how they didn't really like listening to Moraine. She rightly divined that not letting him go his own way would cost them a chance with them later, with him rebelling outright and them losing him, in the dialogue between her and Suiane when they all got back from the eye. The amyrlin chided her for the risk of leaving him without an aes sedai to watch him, but she defended it at that stage, and she didn't send rand off entirely alone, she trained him up with lan a bit, and he went with some new heroes we got to meet like Hurin, which was a nice addition.

[@IJustWantToBeRune]

I was, and still am, pretty annoyed about where the Horn of Valere ended up being in the show. I recently read the 2nd book and Agelmar did not want the horn ANYWHERE NEAR HIM so to have him sitting on it for the past who knows how long really frustrated me.

[@bidossessi]

In the book, Agelmer wants to sound the Horn and blitzkrieg Shayol Gul. Moiraine rains him in. But I agree that the dialogue that goes with uncovering the horn makes no sense. If the horn was meant to be used by the dragon then who were they intending to give it to? because the apparent dragon had just left to the eye of the world to fight the last battle, and they probably didn't even know it was him.

[@LordMaskin]

@@bidossessi That wasn't Agelmar, it was a new Rafe creation. In other words a worthless thing crated by a worthless person.

[@ChristmasLore]

@@LordMaskin , granted. That wasn't Agelmar.

[@emilyk244]

​@@LordMaskin 😒

[@sistercedai9554]

@@bidossessi I thought they were protecting it. As they know they couldn't hold the Gap, so need to move it as they'll be over run by trollocs and then the blight like what happened to the 7 towers. They also had a switch up the scripts due to the actor playing Ingtar (as well as the other reasons we know of): he got a new lead role during the lockdowns, so when they resumed, he couldn't be Ingtar any more. I think that makes the men of Fal Dara of very strong moral character; they were going to protect it rather than blow it because their need was great. At least that how I saw it...

[@gingermedman8509]

I was so optimistic before this episode, despite the criticisms. This one went over a bit of an edge for me. I dont even know what one thing to nitpick about, there was just too many small and big changes i couldnt justify. I dont like to be critical, but this episode melted away all excitement I had for this show. This is how I felt after episode 3 of GoT season 8, I had been blinding myself with hope and it all came crashing down. Season 2 will have to do something bigger than i can imagine currently to make me feel like this is a respectful adaptation. And yeah, some of the CG looked like dated video game cut-scenes.

[@theabhorrentchef7226]

I was blinding myself for a while, trying to like this show. I had been so excited about it but had some trepidation for what they might do to it. My veil was no longer effective after the sad warder episode. I knew then that nothing would ever be right in this WoT lol.

[@spoonman76239]

I was hoping for the same leaving out Baerlon White bridge and Caemlyn I was pretty disappointed but I hoped they would end it right.

[@temdaro]

I needed 30sec of the first episode to know this series was going to reek. Those 30sec gave me the feeling of a b production. Where did all the money go? Honestly people need to start asking that. They will ruine the LOTR series also. They focus on all the wrong things, and this is what are left with. But hey, some of us have been saying this for years now. Most of you just did not want to listen....

[@futureboy314]

Daniel Greene: how can I backpedal from my slavish, fawning worship of this show without offending my corporate overlords?

[@tom4115]

critizise the cgi, the costuming and other completelly irrelevant things. But definately don't critize anything important like the plot!

[@radiantdwarf500]

I'm very conflicted on both the episode and season as a whole. There were definitely moments I liked, but at the end of the day I'm mostly left wondering where it's going to go from here. They made all these changes and none of them have payed off in any way for me, so I feel like the next season is going to be very important in deciding how I end up feeling about the show in general.

[@scottfree6479]

Yeah, I'm just disappointed. I don't think I'll be watching season 2. It just isn't bringing the books to life like I hoped.

[@gmsteele44]

My feeling exactly. And if I’m still feeling this way halfway through, I may just rely on Daniel to tell me what happened lol.

[@LordMaskin]

I hope it goes back to the drawing board. With any luck the show will get cancelled, and somebody who has read the books will get a chance at it in 5 years.

[@samsmom1491]

I've tried to give this show a fair chance. I've been open to quite a few changes. I've also really tried to defend the shoe and shrug off the criticism and haters, but I finally have to agree that I'm not sure what on earth this writer is doing. Way too much of the core story has been changed and not for the better. There's a damn good reason this series is so beloved and they've turned it into a different story with the same characters. It is as if the writers never read the original material. This episode was awful. Just awful. Nothing about this episode was worth commenting on. Lan and Nynaeve too close, way too soon. Lan had spent a lifetime mastering his emotions and his gushing over Nynaeve already rang false. There's so much more that just didn't work; the editing is bad, the script is bad, the special effects were bad.. I can't even talk about it anymore. The worst most anticipated season finale I've had the displeasure to watch. Please, please someone get this story back on track. Or is it too late considering season 2 is currently in production?

[@balluse]

The worst thing is that they're planning to shoot season 3 directly after the second one.

[@brednbudr2406]

Their hubris is profound. I've been doubting the show and raging ever since episode 4, so it's both nice others are waking up to it. But also I am sorry it sucks for you like it has for me now too.

[@Viper0hr]

The show runner only ever read the first 3 books, 20+ years ago. People that support this trash are delusional, it's only going to get worse. I agree, there is no way they can pull the series together to the books in any resemblance from this point.

[@balluse]

@@Viper0hr Are you serious? I was just wondering why in the hell Rafe even decided to be the showrunner - as he clearly doesn't seem to like the books. These big changes couldn't have been made by a fan. But... he hasnt even read it? Wow.

[@cattheparamecius1125]

@@Viper0hr uhh sorry but based on everything i've heard so far i doubt the 'Rafe reading only 3 books' claim. i'm not accusing you of anything, i'd just really like to see the source

[@lenanana8]

As a non-book fan, I enjoyed the battle action sequences in this episode, but a number of things disappointed me: 1) As much as I loved Daniel Henney's emotional acting of Lan's feelings to Nynaeve, I felt (throughout the series actually) that their relationship wasn't built emotionally enough to have that be impactful to the viewer, 2) how did Nynaeve and Egwene just suddenly know how to link and channel the One Power without any training whatsoever? How did Nynaeve know how to unlike Egwene and how did Egwene just know how to heal her? Channeling here was portrayed like a some sort of instinct thing which I felt was just confusing as its evident that a lot of training is needed (i.e Moiraine, etc). I also had this problem with Rand - how is he just "supposed to know" how to channel, even if he's the dragon reborn? I don't think that's how magic works! 3) Loial getting stabbed was just so unjustified. They didn't develop his character nearly enough as I had hoped (and I could tell from book fans around me that he was a fan favorite). I also feel that Ogiers were well respected in this world but the show didn't explain that nearly as well. 4) The Rand chanelling dream sequence felt like it just ended flat with little to no climax so I was left really confused. 5) The part of Padan Fain and the horn felt so rushed. I could tell this was important but again, not even a little hint was given as to why. The fact that they had a horn that could turn the tide of battle (still don't know how that works, I haven't read the books) which was then stolen in 5 minutes flat was so anti-climatic. I wasn't given the time to appreciate the significance of this. 6) Fal Dara leadership in the Trolloc attack was just poor. Lord Aglemar dies anti-climatically within a few minutes of the attack and there's little done by the leadership including Lady Amalisa to encourage camaraderie in the face of death. I expected a Helm's Deep or Battle of the Five Armies type of hype and camaraderie and instead I got nothing. 7) General series complains: although the actors are fenomenal in delivering their characters to the screen, there was not enough screen time for any of the actors to develop their characters nor their relationships with each other strongly enough in only 8 episodes. Book fans, if my confusions/disappointments are a result of me not having read the books, that's completely fine. But I also felt that there was bad storytelling in this episode that was the result of needing to rush and finish within the run time and the episode contraint. Note: I'm also currently reading Eye of the World and it's quite different from the series, so I'm having a hard time divorcing the two from my mind.

[@lukexavier9770]

Great comment, rlly good and accurate criticisms - continue reading the books tho they’re great

[@kimcody7256]

No, you pretty much nailed everything. Very insightful commentary, I'm a book fan and feel the same way. If you enjoy audio books, I highly recommend the WOT Kramer/Reading performance. The 2 narrators really capture the characters, it's far superior to the show.

[@lenanana8]

@Luke Xavier @ Kim Cody thanks and yeah, will continue reading the books!

[@therecipegod1766]

Yeah that sounds about right haha this adaptation.. sheesh.. the only thing i would comment on though is that Rand does kind of just know how to channel complex things just from intuition alone most of the time, i feel like the scale of his power is very poorly portrayed so far

[@lenanana8]

@@therecipegod1766 Ah I see. I was very confused as to the extent of the powers of the Dragon Reborn, but this means that he is just very powerful instinctually. And if he cultivates his skills, he will be super powerful. Looking forward to so much more content with season 2, and also as I read the books.

[@jaredpoulter6762]

I agree, weakest episode. One way I would have improved it: when Rand channels to "kill" Ishamael have him start laughing and say "I win again Lews Therin!" At that point have the seal break and have the Forsaken start coming out starting with Ishy thanking him for freeing himself and the other Chosen. Rand realizes they have to get out of there, weaves a gateway to Fal Dara, then sees it still being over run by trollocks. This is when he channels to destroy the armies.

[@mongoose-jc1ug]

I bet you didn't take two minutes to think that up - and its better than what we got... 😭

[@jaredpoulter6762]

@@mongoose-jc1ug it actually took me about 10-15 minutes lying in bed this morning after watching the episode last night. Another little thing I would have done is have Nyneave gasping for breath when Egwene heals her just to make it clear that she is still alive, if barely, since death cannot be healed and Nyneave looked beyond dead.

[@HeruKane]

That is a super awesome ending and I think I am now imagining it as the one to happen. So headcanon accepted!

[@arenkai]

I'd argue this ending is even better than the one in the books. Understandably so, since RJ didn't know if he was getting picked up for a sequel when EOTW came out so the ending was weirdly conclusive

[@swarnendudas772]

When a random youtube comment has better ending for the season then u know u are doing something wrong.

[@newji3566]

honestly, i have not read the books, this series is my first interaction with the wheel of time. it's frustrating how rushed the series felt, i loved the it at first because it introduced me to this new world that i had not yet discovered but as you reach episodes 6 and 7 when most of this world has been introduced and set, the lack of development from the characters is way too noticeable. it would have felt more adequate if the show had been given 10-12 episodes to properly explore the relationship between the 5 and moiraine+lan, and how this journey has changed them as people and influenced their interactions with each other. overall, since i don't know much about the wheel of time at all, apart from what I've seen from the series, it's not a bad way to introduce people to it. it definitely hooked me and pushed me to read the books. if they had been given more time for filming and post-production, i feel like it could have been improved in many ways. anyway, thank you so much for these reviews and explanations. i've binge-watched most of your wheel of time content and it has been incredibly helpful. can't wait for your season 1 review :)

[@damp2269]

you are quite right on everything except the world being mostly set by ep 6-7. you haven't seen but a tiny fraction of the world and you are in for a nice treat when you read the books.

[@newji3566]

@@damp2269 oh that sounds amazing, it's honestly so wonderful how vast the wheel of time world is!!

[@damp2269]

@@newji3566 I'm not done yet.. i'm on book 11 but its a fantastic read through and through. just a small tease, when you discover how the Aiel society works and their values you realize how vast the world is. BTW Aiel are the white clad people fighting in the snow (rand's mom).

[@scottfree6479]

What's sad is that most of the world hasn't even been mentioned. The worldbuilding is nothing compared to the books. This show is a disgrace.

[@damp2269]

@@scottfree6479 being fair this is season 1, they have done a great job at world building for the time they had, in fact they might have made too much which has hurt character development.

[@milililiony]

To be fair, the conversation between Nynaeve and Lan was taken from the Eye of the World, and not later books. Like the sentence "I will hate the man you choose because he is not me, and love him if he makes you smile." is a quote from the end of chapter 48, when they poured their hearts out in the Blight. It can still feel like not enough development was made in their relationship, but it's not really an example of things being speeded up compared to the books. Also, I'm doubting Loial being really dead. We also see Uno and Ingtar getting stabbed while it has been confirmed they will be in season 2.

[@praalgraf]

i really missed the widow's black as bridepiece line in that conversation

[@olorin3815]

Also kind of a dick move have sex with her then dump her say you cant be with her KEK idk why they had sex lan should have been trying ti push her away the entire time

[@nathanmorgan3647]

@@olorin3815 Cuz 21st Century NYC intersectional values y'all!!!

[@brednbudr2406]

Lan and Nynaeve already having sex and THEN having that convo from the books, is why it didn't hit right. If theyd just stuck to the books their convo would have felt right, but now they should have not bothered at all. If Loial, Uno and Ingtar are going to be just fine after that stabbing and dying, then the season 2 will be even worse that I already expect.

[@olorin3815]

@@brednbudr2406 well im 90% sure uno and loial are alive LOL and i think moiraine is just shielded and its tied off and she gonna get rid of it, all that with nyneave fakeout death and egwane BS healing, this show is next level bullshit with all the baits and fake drama

[@sensur1]

The way this show have depicted men is bordering on misandry. Agelmar is an arrogant fool, Perrin has done literally nothing, Mat is an evil thief, Lan isn't stoic and the warders are being presented as being people with no hope or life before being picked by the Sea Sedai. And Rand has literally been a sidekick character doing nothing but slamming down a door before ep 8. Tam, a BLADE MASTER, struggled to finish off even one trolloc with his Heron blade. Now compare their actions to the women and think

[@danawinslett7505]

Welcome to Woke writing. Men bad, women fantastic. It's sad that we finally have the technology to present this story but have an agenda that feels the need to present men as weak while making women invincible. The imbalance weakens the story.

[@andrewmcdonald5900]

As a book fan, I really enjoyed the first six episodes (acknowledging and being “okay” with the need for certain changes). Episode 7 was where I started to have my doubts, and Episode 8 left me feeling kinda insulted. I really enjoy the end of EOTW in the book, and I really feel that if they had followed it more or less we would have had a solid season of WOT.

[@jpeg.jordaan]

episode 6 onwards has been super shit. Im doing a reread to further my anger

[@MrDomelast]

So unfortunately true... turned into utter trash. Do you think they are trying to destroy wheel of time like Disney destroyed starwars movies?

[@jpeg.jordaan]

They needed to follow the material and another 4 or 5 episodes. 8 episode season will just not work for this story. Hell 13 or 14 is still cutting it close. I didnt enjoy one single episode. There were good scenes in each but as a whole it all fell flat.

[@RichFreeman]

Episode 8 was pretty bad, but the book ending wasn't great so I was more willing to roll with it. A lot of my opinion is going to depend on whether they turn things around for season two which should be much more adaptable without changing everything. As bad as 8 was it isn't as bad as episode 7 was for me. That one got a little better at the end, but the first half was just one problem after another, starting with the terrible cold open. At least I didn't DNF it the way I did with Infinity Wars. :)

[@Book_Cloak]

My disappointment started early in episode 1 when they turned Mat's father into a drunken womanizer and Mat and a little more than a common thief. Perrin missing his axe throughout the entire season kills his whole storyline. And from there it has been nothing but disappointment ever since, the only thing that changes is the level of disappointment.

[@holdyourfire74]

Yeah, I've been lukewarm on most of the episodes this season. Trying to take the show on its own merits and the changes with a grain of salt. This one really left a bad taste in my mouth though. Moiraine left not being able to channel. Amalisa and 4 untrained channelers able to destroy the Trolloc army as if channeling through the Choedan Kal. Loial stabbed dead? Amalisa and Agelmar dead? Uno dead? If all of these characters are alive somehow then it diminishes the decision. I didn't mind the Rand vs. Ishamael stuff. I thought it was well done and a nice callback to another character's experience in the books. I still wish we had gotten the oasis at the Eye and Someshta, but that's more of a fanboy wish. Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but to me the worst sin was naming Lews Therin the Dragon Reborn. It shows either a complete ignorance or lack of care of the source material. LTT was the Dragon. He was named that in the Age of Legends. The Dragon Reborn is supposed to be LTT reincarnated, hence the "Reborn" added to the name/title. Yeah the Seanchan landing was cool, but no a'dams for the Sul'dam and Damane? I'll probably still give it a chance next season. Hopefully, some of the fundamental changes made this season will start to make more sense for the story.

[@beckydean4374]

My thoughts also, add in Rand wandering off alone with zero kit into the blight... not to mention Loial wasn't just stabbed, he was shadar logoth stabbed... stupid defence tactics like the chanelling women just stood at a random pre wall location... and why did Aglemar charge at the gap fort... it was still held at at that point, take your troops up without tiring them in a gallop! And the blight looks pants. I'm sad

[@blyssdavis1713]

Right! LTT was THE dragon! They botched so many things like that in this episode but that one hurt 😞

[@brednbudr2406]

We said "hopefully the massive changes will make sense, through this season" for an entire season. They never did, and it just got worse. Another season will be even further away. How'd you like the Damane sending a tsunami at a vacant beach for absolutely no reason? Lol These writers are so good.

[@Viper0hr]

The show runner only ever read the first 3 books, 20+ years ago. People that support this trash are delusional, it's only going to get worse. There is no way they can pull the series together to the books in any resemblance from this point.

[@temdaro]

Copium seem to be the norm here when it comes to this series. We where many that warned you all of this year's ago. The same will happen to the LOTR series sadly. I would really like to see where all the money went into, cuz we can clearly see it was not into the produktion of this b series.

[@BTdeltafan101]

Yeah honestly I started this season with a rating of a 7 or an 8, but I'm now down to a 5. It's just so far out there from the books and I know it's a reimagining of the whole thing but it's hard to get over how they went with things. I really wanted to like this show and I'll give season 2 a watch but man, did this feel really dissapointing. (Yes I've read the entire series)

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

I started at 1 and i'm at 0 now.

[@BTdeltafan101]

@@user-bm3ts2ql6s Yeah I feel you. I think my 5 rating might actually be a bit generous. If I try and look at it from a completely non book perspective I might enjoy it more. But as it stands it's too hard to seperate my own reading biases and how I envisioned the world.

[@saquibmohammad2860]

Same here. I was defending the first bunch of episodes and thr changes to the character Arc felt nice. Made them relatable. But Jesus, now I'm at a 3. Won't watch season 2 like i did this one. Will just watch at some point in the future if I'm boted someday.

[@antarchy1]

If they took one of the strongest books in the series and turned it into this what do you think they'll do with book two. Abandon all hope ye who watch this.

[@saquibmohammad2860]

@@antarchy1 I think we should stop calling them books anymore. It's jsut rafe's story now. He uses books to roll the joints he clearly smokes while writing tbe script cuz boy, it got holes bigger than grand canyon.

[@reganheath]

RE Perrin; I kinda agree with a comment I heard Brandon make, that they (Rafe etc) painted themselves into a corner with him. After starting him off with a massive emotional trauma he was effectively paralysed with self doubt and couldn't really "do" anything, for the whole season.

[@daneg]

"Grrrr. mmmmumble. tense up. stare. Grrr." sigh. killing his wife on accident was fine afaic, but I think his character is the most drained of all of them in the transition from book to TV. he really is just a prop in this series.

[@תהלהקאופמן]

So the problem here is paralysing one of your main characters.

[@cloutbakula9710]

This is the episode that finally got me interested in reading the books. I've enjoyed the show but it hasn't particularly blown me away but the concept of this age being a sort of dark age following a more scientifically advanced is an interesting concept. Also starting to see the scope of the storyline a bit better and interested in seeing if the books does a better job of exploring it.

[@Qnigz]

Didn't like the first book. The rest are gold though. That being said, the show butchered most major plot points for no other reason than to make male characters look stupid or useless. My biggest complaint is how they butchered the rules of magic.

[@ChristmasLore]

That said, you won't get much of "the age of Legends" in the books. The concept is prevalent, indeed, but we never get to spend time there- except at the very beginning of the series- in very special circumstances.

[@cloutbakula9710]

@@ChristmasLore That's fine I'm more interested in exploring how the events, actions, and tech of the previous age are felt and interpreted by the more primitive society. And how the characters armed with these legends attempt to change the outcome of this turn of the wheel.

[@rauschman3691]

Tread lightly. If you want to continue to like the series, don't read the books. Reading the books will show you just what a piece of garbage this show really is.

[@rauschman3691]

@@Qnigz Perfectly said about their choices concerning male characters. Overall, this is some woke garbage. What bothers me most about the wokeness is the fact that it is totally unneeded in Jordan's world. Females hold the power in multiple lands and are the only ones that can really channel, so there was no reason to bash men to a backseat role or downgrade their importance. And diversity was a huge part of Jordan's world, so no reason to mess with that really either, but they kinda did.

[@michaelh9649]

Yeah, as optimistic as I was for this show, and as accepting of all the changes, this final episode solidified the first season in my mind as a big ole “meh.” My excitement for it peaked with episode 4 and valleyed with the silly shout of the sul’dam in the final scene of this episode 😕 This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, considering everyone praises this particular aspect of the show, but…I’m not a huge fan of the acting. A lot of it may be the dialogue given to them and much of this complaint is directed at side characters, but the lines delivered often feel corny or as though I’m watching actors playing a part instead of being immersed into the world with them. Last big complaint that probably won’t be popular: it somehow feels cheap. And I don’t even know how that’s possible considering the budget for this show. This has nagged me since the beginning, but the aesthetics, the sets, something I can’t put my finger on, makes it feel like a set of a television series instead of a real world. It reminds me a lot of Firefly for some reason (a great show, but a show with a budget). Look at the bar scene of Episode 3 and tell me that doesn’t have Firefly aesthetics vibes. Totally fine for a show with a budget, but not fine for this show. The Witcher and GoT trounce this show when it comes to that slick, cinematic, immersive world. In my opinion. Fingers crossed for season 2

[@honkingantelope557]

It definitely doesn't feel like an immersive world. I don't know if it's the acting or costumes or dialogue but I just can't buy into it and am constantly aware that I'm watching a TV show instead of being immersed in the narrative.

[@radrose4864]

Yeah feels like watching actors in a set. Lame. I got so fed up with ep 8 I walked out halfway through, only popping my head back in the room when the sound got loud & dramatic. Def felt cheap

[@xcBlackDiamond]

Your 2nd paragraph is spot on imo. I havent been able to put it into words yet.

[@michaelh9649]

@Honking Antelope I honestly think the costumes are a weirdly large part of it. Some of them are just so…silly. I’m sorry, but Uno, Ingar, and the rest of the Fal Daran merry men look like they are cosplaying.

[@TheCritter001]

Poor set/costume/CGI design continuity and integration.. The world doesn't really have a lived in feel, and unless the Sisters are channeling those clothes clean and pressed- most everyone looks too well kept during traveling. This looks like a poorly programmed MMO simulation, not WOT. This show should at least look as good as the Witcher; it falls short.

[@emerynoel567]

For episodes 1-6, and most of 7, even though they changed every scene, they kept close to the _spirit_ of the books, so it still felt like Wheel of Time. Most of the characters were exceptionally well-acted (true to their book spirit). I liked every addition they made, including Stepin and the explicit Moirane/Siuan relationship. I accepted most of the changes. It was reasonable to squish Rand's and Mat's journey into a single town, to postpone Caemlyn, to cut (or postpone?) Elyas. Yes Valda became a Questioner, Fain became more suave than insane, Liandrin got a bigger part, and Min moved to Fal Dara. The "who's the dragon" thing was pretty cool, and I don't even care about the gender complications of it. I liked that linking didn't provide a safe buffer. These things are OK because they still fill in the story of the world, and ultimately don't detract from the overall story. These episodes suffered because of abhorrent pacing, and even though the characters were well _acted_ , most were criminally underused. Especially Thom and Loial. The visuals of the One Power were terrible (both the air-bending motions and the wimpy white wisps), although the black sheathing on the men's was a really nice touch. Almost every scene felt _isolated_ , from Logain taking Ghealdan (there were 4 actors?) to Shaiel's fight (5 actors?), both of which were supposed to take place in the middle of wars. They also killed off just _everybody_ who wasn't going to be in a later season, like the Grinwells, Agelmar, and Valda. All of the above, that was all OK, I could accept it, especially because it was season 1. But the last episode ... what an atrocity. For all of the above problems I was expecting a really big payoff. Instead, not only did we not get a payoff, we saw thing after thing just ... go wrong. Lan sleeps with Nynaeve then immediately goes into his spiel about how they can't be together, like some kind of emo college bro. Nynaeve teaches Lan how to track Moiraine. Lan doesn't even _try_ to track Moiraine on his own, even if he didn't know how, HE KNOWS WHERE THEY'RE GOING. Agelmar was changed from an honorable lord/general to a little bitch. The battle in Tarwin's Gap was a complete waste of screen time. 5 untrained women stood in a field, instead of on a wall, and the Shienarns didn't even give them an honor guard? The trollocs didn't have arrows? How did Nyn and Eg even know where to go? When they linked, why weren't the streams coming from Nyn and Eg much bigger than the others? 5 women just CAN'T wreck an entire army of shadowspawn, but even if they could, why weren't they the first line of defense? If Amalisa was trained in THAT MANY of the Aes Sedai weaves/secrets, why wasn't she bound with the oath rod, why wasn't she bound to the tower? What kind of damage could she do with that knowledge? You can't go from "I can light a torch" to "I can kill all the shadowspawn with just a small boost". Why bother to have Nyn die and Eg resurrect her, when you could have just shown Nyn saving them both? Nyn could have wrenched control from Amalisa, she could have blasted or stabbed Amalisa, she might have squeezed Eg out of the link and endured Amalisa's abuse. Why have NYN die, and EG heal her, when healing is NYN's thing? Why change the purpose of the Eye? Why waste such an amazing plot device to differentiate between clean and corrupted saidin? Why not show that no matter how Rand channeled, Ishy would have the upperhand because of the taint, forcing Rand to use up the Eye to win? Why waste putting Nyn and Eg on the battlefield for Ishy not to SHOW them to Rand, to add more weight to that perfect world? Why NOT have Rand use the eye and the angreal to destroy the Trollocs? Sure, put the 5 women out there, make them kill SOME shadowspawn, but put them in danger when Amalisa begins to be overrun, and let Rand break through Ishy's lies while destroying the shadowspawn, saving his friends, drawing on the Eye, and blasting the seal/Ishy? Why why why why why?? It was all RIGHT THERE!! Did Fain have the dagger or not? If so, where did he get it? If not, what the hell is he doing there? Is he still in the DO's thrall, stealing the horn at his behest? Were there people in the room playing Myrdraal, or were they completely VFX? WHY KILL LOIAL??? Not only did you completely waste him in Tar Valon, you wasted him in the Ways, you didn't even SHOW him in Fal dara. What an utter, _utter_ waste of that character! "Did him dirty" doesn't even come close. When you see Nynaeve die, Loial die, Moiraine get stilled, the entire Eye completely rewritten, the wasted opportunities, and you see Mat apparently go evil, what a series of just ... shitty blows. The book EotW ended on a mostly upbeat note. Yes Rand used up the Eye that was supposed to help defeat the DO, but you got that kind of New Hope/Ep 4 ending. Finally ... the Seanchan. Not an a'dam to be seen, the damane wear gags, and the sul'dam also channel? And why did they raise a tidal wave? First, there was nothing there to crush, it was an empty beach. Second, they came to RECLAIM, not crush. It would have been 9000x better to put that blue sitter (Magda?) on a ship, maybe 3 ships from Falme, and have the Seanchan start channeling and destroy the ships. Have Magda give us a little exposition on what to expect? Like, "Oh Light, they use the One Power as a weapon!" Something. ANYTHING. Fuck. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK. I needed to get all that out.

[@LW-ee4yw]

You’re not alone, i agree with pretty much everything you said and so much more. Even if there was no source material I don’t think this would actually work as a show. I love the additions but can’t forgive everything they’ve taken out. I understand the need for compression but DAMN

[@steveo7265]

Linking without safety buffer or having any ability to separate yourself. She raped those women to death.

[@ChristmasLore]

Great sum up, thanks.

[@paulhudgins]

The reason the ending sucked was simply a cumulative effect of all those changes you accepted. It will only get worse, each change will continue to have an impact and take the story further away from it's source material,

[@brednbudr2406]

@@paulhudgins agreed. I enjoyed episodes 1-3 with a few obvious grievances. But after 3 I could see what they were doing and how bad the season was going to get. To be honest, it was worse than I expected. Episode 5 blew my mind how bad it was, the character suicide they forced on Lan. Everything has been numbingly terrible since.

[@jawbreaker9240]

The thing that bugged me the most was that in the books it is very clear that through linking you are insulated from burning out, in the scene with the female channellers fighting the trollocs, there didn’t seem to be any kind of insulation and it was relatively easy to be burned out. Also Agelmar’s sister seemed to be very comfortable using the flows for a half trained accepted.

[@henriktronstad7050]

Hot take… Barney Harris read the scripts. Read several of the WoT books. Got confused. Read the scripts yet again, and… “Hey, what is this? What are they doing to WoT? I don’t want to be part of this anymore…” Backed out a side door… Left, never to be seen again… 🤔😵‍💫

[@alexbarker2360]

I think you're being generous with your score to be honest, I was 100% fine with things being changed for the show, they needed to be. I hand waved a lot of stuff I wasn't super happy with in the earlier episodes but this one they needed to get right, and it missed by a mile in my opinion.

[@Miroshen]

They’d have to start using something from the book in order to “make changes.” This was a total rewrite perhaps loosely inspired by the material.

[@mplovecraft]

Now that the season is over, I think that it's pretty clear that the writing wasn't worked through enough. Some things were clearly underdeveloped and other things got way more time than what was reasonable.

[@Ellis_Hugh]

That's what happens when you radically change 90% of what you were supposedly 'adapting'. Everyone knew that changes were going to be necessary, but - seriously - maybe 5% of what made it on screen was actually in the books. That's unforgivable.

[@tom4115]

yeah I mean we had lan wailing like a fool over some irrelevant warder nobody even remembers the name of for nearly a whole episode.

[@danawinslett7505]

@@Ellis_Hugh True. And with this much deviation from the story arc at the beginning, you have to wonder just how far afield they will go by the end?

[@robertpower8374]

I'm trying to split my reactions into general cinematic/storytelling issues vs changes from the book issues. It's tricky because they often blend into each other but it helping me maintain my sanity and focusing on the general TV/storytelling issues is easier. My summary of the changes from the book issues: Someone needs to print Brandon Sanderson a massively oversized and ornate copy of his laws of magic. This needs to be taken into the writers room and used to beat everyone over the head until they understand how magic systems interact with storytelling. With this episode in particular the general storytelling problems went through the roof, it felt like it has as many problems as the rest of the episodes combined. Every time you say X and then present Y it creates inconsistencies, and (book readers or not) your audience are not idiots. They will notice them and each time they do it takes them out of the story. As some quick examples: - The two main characters in this episode were in the most dangerous part of this world (established within the show) but the only obstacle they face is one that we are already familiar with (a dream). We know the dreams were dangerous outside of this biome, so the viewer is shown nothing that this makes this new thing dangerous (rotten and creepy sure, but not life threatening in any way). - Two major items were introduced in this episode which hadn't even been mentioned in passing (even as a concept that existed within this world). These two items were both involved directly in the outcome of major plot points (Horn and sa'angreal). This means they landed as deus ex mechanisms because they weren't set up beforehand. - Fake out deaths are bad. Not much explanation required for this one. - Characters show powers with zero justification for why they have them other than the plot demands it (see soft vs hard magic systems). - Antagonists are made to seem more competent due to unjustified decisions by the protagonists. Agelmar is introduced as prideful but competent (has been doing this for generations, has well set up defenses) but shows no strategic skill and makes no use of his defender's advantage. The channelers stand in the open (but aren't punished for it). Good storytelling means that both sides are competent all the time, not just the side that needs to win a given engagement. - Without even basic siege equipment attackers would have no reasonable way to breaching that kind of fortification. They would take horrific casualties from range and even with the design flaw of the fortifications they can only bring ~20 Trollocs to bare at once (through the through the lowest level of arrow slits, they clearly can't climb the entire wall). Each arrow slit can be guarded by multiple men, who are trained, armoured and in a massively superior position. I saw one reaction channel mentioned that this entire episode should have been set over multiple days instead of one. That would instantly make the fight at the gap competitive (i.e. they actually run out of ammo and can't withdraw in good order) and the journey to the Eye more treacherous. Outside of that from the books perspective your continuity is completely gone. Most of the deviations from the books would probably have been fine if they had 'stuck the landing' with this episode but because they didn't it's all over the place. From here we are going to be looking through a kaleidoscope for future books, some characters are on trajectories which will probably cause them to overlap parts of their book stories but the butterfly effect of changes are beyond comprehension at this point. For example if Rand heads to the Waste now you can make some of his story work (things happen in different orders etc) but it means skipping both Egwene and Mat's character defining arcs with the Aiel.

[@dethspud]

Weakest? Agreed. Calling it "underwhelming" would be an understatement. An epic tale reduced to a thin pastiche of fan fiction post-it notes.

[@Atromite]

This whole season has been a disaster... I cannot imagine this going on for more than 2 or 3 seasons before they finally give up on it and move on to the next fantasy franchise to ruin.

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

Well stated

[@barbeeska]

I'm betting the same

[@MrBellsa61]

The "who is the Dragon?" mystery completely destroyed what potential the show had. I wanted this to be good, and it came close in moments with episodes 4 and 7. But good lord I'm just not excited for the show anymore. Sad day.

[@MarielaQue]

It's interesting. The mystery of who is the dragon lead non-book readers to the series. I think people forget how difficult it is to sell this type of series to a large audience.

[@thelastjerkbender2505]

@@MarielaQue as a non reader, I actually did like it but it will ruin the rewatchability of the first season, since we know who it's gonna be. Also that flashback scenes where Rand's dad is rambling about rescuing him just didn't happen in the pilot so that was really weird.

[@aaronc4899]

@@MarielaQue They didn't even do it very well. They could have used it as a way to flesh out the characters and make them more interesting. They could have had them showing more special abilities earlier, and then they could have rewritten the prophecies to make it seem like truly any of them could have been the dragon. For instance, In Book 1 Mat speaks in the Old Tongue spontaneously. That would have been a red herring, but it would have been true to the book.

[@davidgalland3070]

I think one of the biggest problems of Book to TV/Movie adaptions is that magic systems tend to end up looking like wish-fulfillment rather than an earned skill-set. The TV WoT series also falls into this trap and I think there would be ways around it with a little thought. Channelers are too busy looking at their targets rather than at their weaves for one thing....