Wheel of Time: The Finn Explained!

New to Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series? Waiting for the Amazon Prime show? Seasoned fan? In this SPOILER FREE video I give an overview of those mysterious creature the Finn! Information those tricksey Snakes and Foxes the Aelfinn and the Eelfin as well as their home dimension!
Intro animation Courtesy of @UnravelingWoT
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[@Violetsoul6]

The Finn are one of the most fascinating parts of the series, imo. Thanks for doing a video on them!

[@thane9]

I've always loved the Finn, how they're so precisely defined in some ways (just barely enough) but left so undefined and lost to time and remembrance in others. Truly a masterclass in storytelling from Jordan.

[@laurenweeks1051]

I only have one point where I don't agree. (Spoilers) I don't think the foxes get past memories. When Mat goes in and asks for his memory to be returned, they don't give him childhood memories, but the memories of adult men. My theory is that they develop a link with those they grant wishes to and take their memories from the time the person enters into an agreement until that person dies. Because Mat has many memories of men dying, but no memories of childhood or adolescence.

[@TurusDJava]

I agree

[@PsyrenXY]

Word of God is that he indeed got a bunch of random memories from other men who had dealings with the Finn before.

[@phnome123]

Kind of a really late answer to this but If i remember correctly (In ToM in my reread but not at that point yet) Mat figures that out and belive they can see everything he sees from when he entered the doorframe in Rhuidean and forward. I would enjoy more lore. the Finns, Shara, Land of madmen, Seanchan... The story is finished. There is a LOT of lore, but it's not complete. I havn't read the companion cover to cover but I still feel I lack some lore.

[@jamesrose3531]

I sort of thought the point of this was like a djinn... you make a wish, but they grant it in ways you don't expect or want... Matt asked for the holes in his memory to be filled, but he didn't ask for them to be filled with his own memory. They gave him something he didn't want. (Though it turned out to be useful, which may have something to do with his being ta'veren.)

[@Vincent-lw2sp]

I always picture the land of the Finn to look like M.C. Escher's art.

[@bobok5566]

Funny you say that. I never pictured the land of the Finn that way, but definitely Rand's early experiences in the world of dreams.

[@jamesrose3531]

Me too, me too! 😍

[@rd6416]

I love the Finn. They are unique to the WOT series, and their presence adds something like a wild card to the mix. I always felt that they don't like questions on the shadow because it risks upsetting the spinning of Wheel. It effectively stops a dark friend entering and asking "how can the dark one win the last battle". Which makes sense because their world may suffer as well if the status quo is disrupted by the dark one destroying Randland.

[@christophere.herbert418]

Just as Rafe ignored the green man and the whole eye of the world pool of power and the dragon's flag that Rand gets, I can see Rafe ignoring these twisted door ways for Mat's questions and gifts being ignored in the Wheel of Time series as something too difficult to produce visually for the tv series.

[@jeanmichaelmeme]

I think that if we keep watching and engaging and growing the fandom like we're doing for season 2, Prime Video will give the show more budget. Budget that will allow more to happen like the Finn

[@A.Martin]

The takeaway from the snakes and foxes game and what is required when visiting that realm, is the only way to win is to cheat.

[@blueeyedcowboy8291]

Another great video. I have been wanting someone to do a video on the Finn. They are one of the weirdest parts of the series, in a good way.

[@dredbane4056]

I've always wanted to start a campaign of snakes and foxes with friends and enjoy loosening every time! We need a board game

[@chrisrygh6838]

I want to play the board game.

[@beggon12]

I was thinking about this the other day.. perfect timing! Thank you, sir!

[@thomastheisman1751]

Thank you for this, @Wot Up!

[@Mangles91Tv]

Great video really loved it. Id love to see more "explained" videos

[@DavidKotschessa]

So many of your videos to watch now that I'm done reading the series!

[@cazgreene3055]

I would love this! So much scope to choose from. Of course Manetheren area at any point would be amazing - I can’t remember most of the original names etc

[@danalou_who7765]

I love your new spoiler caution at the beginning!!!😁👏🏼

[@sn1ckers100]

Another great and informative video.

[@andrewberenson5717]

Great analysis. I hope you and your family are safe and healthy

[@emrwtf]

great video. I agree with Lauren Weeks about the memories.

[@peopleschampiii584]

thanks for this video. helped fill in some gaps for me.

[@WoTUp]

Im glad!

[@jenniferwood144]

Great video

[@amandaofhouserobinson6707]

Thankyou , im 3/⁴ way through book 4 and that helps me alot !!! Thankyou

[@jenniferoroark7330]

Great show 👍

[@maddy6033]

Thank you

[@carolbriscoe9337]

Wonder who and when this world was first discovered. And who negotiated the treaty?

[@Psylento]

outro music is way to high.. nearly gave me a heartattack

[@janastancheva1804]

This was great, but now I feel even more confused...! Would You also do a spoiler NOT free video - to explain what actually happened with Mat. What were the thinks he wanted and what he ended up receiving..? If you haven`t done it yet..?

[@WoTUp]

Thats a great idea!

[@jameslangridge1674]

SPOILER WARNING: wot.fandom.com/wiki/Matrim_Cauthon I cannot remember exactly what book it is in, (I think it occurs in several, actually), but Mat mentions his questions/answers to Rand and to Moiraine at some point. The ter'angreal doorway took him to the land of the Aelfinn, snakelike creatures with oracular powers. After answering Mat's questions, and possibly in a panic about multiple ta'veren inside their world (Rand - as well as Moiraine - passed through the doorframe during this same time period), they prophesied that: He would go to Rhuidean. If he does not go to Rhuidean he will die. He would die, because he will have sidestepped fate and would be killed by "those who do not want that fate fulfilled. He then refuses to leave when told, and while he is fighting is given more answers for asking what fate they were talking about before being thrown out. To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons. To die and live again, and live once more as part of what was. To give up half the light of the world to save the world. He thereafter learned that Rand required an interpreter in the world of the Aelfinn. Mat, however, was able to understand the dialect of the Old Tongue the Aelfinn were speaking. A bit unnerved, he followed Rand to Rhuidean, in the Aiel Waste, along with Egwene, Moiraine, and Lan. When Rand was granted permission to enter Rhuidean, Mat also asked to enter. Only after Rand told the Wise Ones that if he were to enter, then Mat could enter as well, did they consent. In the city Rhuidean, while Rand discovered his Aiel heritage, Mat found another red stone doorway. Still feeling cheated concerning the answers he received from the Aelfinn, he decided to enter. However, this redstone ter'angreal brought him instead to the land of the Eelfinn, who resemble foxes instead of snakes. He was expecting to get answers to more questions from Aelfinn, so when the Eelfinn offered him wishes instead, Mat glared at them, feeling cheated. His wishes were: To have the holes in his memories filled, To be free from the One Power and Aes Sedai, To be away from the Eelfinn and return to Rhuidean if they would not answer his questions. Since Mat did not set the price, the Eelfinn set a price for him, apparently taking delight while calling him a fool. As granted, Mat now has the memories of countless historical military leaders, thus privy to over a thousand years of cultural and military knowledge; he has a foxhead medallion that causes flows of the One Power to simply dissolve when applied to him; and Mat was found by Rand hanging by the neck in Rhuidean, suspended from a black-hafted spear set across two tree branches. Rand managed to revive Mat; however, Mat still has a scar around his neck, which he constantly covers with a scarf when not alone. He also decided to keep the spear, actually a naginata-like weapon called an ashandarei, which has become his signature weapon. A side effect of his filled-in memories is that he is now completely fluent in the Old Tongue (whereas before he would only occasionally shout a few phrases in the language in the heat of battle), although often with varying accents. Mat is poisoned somewhere after Rhuidean from being slobbered on by a Darkhound, which Rand kills with balefire (undoing the actual poisoning to a degree and preventing Mat's death). Mat faces death once more during Rand's invasion of Caemlyn; he was killed, along with Aviendha and Asmodean, by Rahvin's channeling. However, shortly afterward, Rand killed Rahvin with enough balefire to undo those deaths and permanently kill Rahvin. This fulfills the first Aelfinn prophecy; therefore releasing Mat as the current Hornsounder and breaking his link with the Horn of Valere

[@janastancheva1804]

@@jameslangridge1674 And why they gave him the spear? Or there was no reason?

[@jameslangridge1674]

@@janastancheva1804 I haven't read the books in ages, but I recall Mat saying it was their joke or gift. He realises it right about when he desperately needs an exit from the Tower of Ghenji. I'll check and get back to you asap.

[@jameslangridge1674]

@@janastancheva1804 The spear is the way for him to '"be away from the Eelfinn", which is his 3rd and final "wish" or request. So he uses the spear to carve his way out by making the wavy sign of the snake and foxes game.

[@tyrvinodinson9790]

I wish people would stop caring about spoilers. If they didn't want spoilers they should have read the books

[@gizmoochi]

One thing I never understood about the Finn....If they don't like talking about the Shadow, they are obviously somehow affected by it. If so, why weren't they at the last battle?

[@jamesmacleod9382]

Maybe the Dark One is too much a force of chaos that interferes with their ability to see time. Chaos is randomness, a fixed future is order

[@TheGriple]

They are, refer to Perrin’s fight when he kills slayer and is shifting from the world of dreams back to the real world

[@phnome123]

@@TheGriple How did I miss this in any and all of my rereads. Soon to be at the Tarmon Gai'don chapter in aMoL. I have to catch this.

[@schwarz9199]

Thank you, they always threw me off a bit.

[@NewtonDKC]

Great video but what is up with the Closed Caption track??? Its like reading a totally different video/channel instead of your actual video!

[@cabalpaxiarch7239]

SPOILER ALERT!!! Is it really "telling the future" if you say "you will lose have the light of the world" when you yourself are planning on gouging out that person's eye? In that case I predict I'm having spaghetti for dinner today since I just bought it and have every intention of preparing it. I was surprised by how accurate this video was. There was still a bit of speculation that isn't based at all on the books like how evil or not they are or how they feel about humans, but nowhere near as much as I thought there would be. Most of it was pretty spot on. A very wholesome summary of this concept.

[@jamesrose3531]

They weren't telling the future when they said this. They were quoting the price for the release of Moraine, and for the foxes not to harm the party on the way out. (Mat forgot to mention the snakes, thats why they were able to chase and try to stop them.) The PRICE was half the light of the world. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn speak in riddles when bargaining, so they don't give away the gruesome nature of the price.

[@cabalpaxiarch7239]

@@jamesrose3531 In book 4 they were prophesizing his future. To lose half the light, to marry the daughter of the nine moons etc. Of course you can say they were naming their price as it turns out, but officially it was supposed to be a prophecy. I'm also speculating that Jordan hadn't decided at the time why he'd have Mat lose an eye. For all we know the Moiraine thing was Sanderson's idea. And in any case it was early enough for me to ponder whether he had that arc so clear in his head.

[@jamesrose3531]

@Cabal Paxiarch ahh, ok, I see what you mean. I suppose calling it a 'prophecy' at that point is reaching a bit. 🤣 Although... they did technically tell him his future... Perhaps the Finn simply knew that he would lose an eye, but not that it would be at their hands? How they see the future isn't exactly well-defined, perhaps they can only see some things based on the questions asked, and so they could see Matt without an eye, but didn't look to see why because he never asked. I could think of other plot devices that might explain it... but it is sort of like the Finn, really. They hold to the letter of the bargain, not to the spirit, right? I have a hard time believing that Jordan didn't have the eye planned out. He was the type of writer to do that. I think initially his contract was for like 3 or 4 books, but as the story progressed they allowed him the liberty to expand it because it was so good, if I recall properly... can't remember if that was an article or maybe foreword/afterword to one of the books.

[@cabalpaxiarch7239]

@@jamesrose3531 They knew exactly how and why it would happen. They can't actually see the future it's just that time works differently in their dimension so they've seen things happen that haven't in our regular, linear, timeline. It's hinted at in the books. But yes, they are intentionally vague and that's because they're contractually obligated to be honest but their interests don't align with humans' so they manipulate however suits them. Yes he had it planned that Mat would lose an eye. He had been hinting at it since much earlier than book 4 in Egwene's dreams. But for example in one dream he was putting his eye on a scale, which has nothing to do with what happened (unless you stretch some sort of metaphor by the ears like his eye vs moraine's life). They also say "give up half the light of the world to save the world." But he didn't save the world with the eye, he just saved Moraine. And yes Moraine helped Rand win so you can stretch that too if you want. If you try hard enough you can make everything fit any narrative you want. But simply based on logic and probability, it's pretty clear, to me at least, that he hadn't planned the Moiraine thing, as it relates to Mat, at that stage.

[@jamesrose3531]

@@cabalpaxiarch7239 well, we know what Jordan told us about them, and we know what the characters speculate about them. None of those include a direct claim that they can see the future in its entirety at all points in time. It just seems like you're reading things that the characters say about them as being true, but the characters even say that they don't know how it works, and that they are guessing the entire time. You can't really say the Finn were planning to take his eye, just that they knew he would lose it. The narrative works, and they DID tell him his future. If the Finn can see all of the future at all times, etc. etc. Matt never would have escaped them... it can't be had that they are omniscient and omnipotent, elsewise they wouldn't have lost. There are all sorts of narrative devices that can explain this, and it is the omission of direct explanation that makes characters like the Finn possible in stories. If we knew too much, it wouldn't make sense.

[@aharris206]

I always understand their world as non-euclidean. Look up an example of "Non- Euclidean World Engines" here on KZbin c:

[@andrewberenson5717]

How did the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends learn about the Finns

[@Negentropy369]

They traveled between worlds, the multiverse itself, and even knew how to enter bubble universes with different laws of physics and time. I assume they merely came across the Finns world in their studies of the greater pattern.

[@bruceh9780]

Who's to say the Aes Sedai made first contact and not the other way around. The Finn can see the entire pattern, answer any question and grant any wish they want. It stands to reason they'd also have the ability to reach our world. Maybe they approached Age of Legends humans (probably raiding for humans to take back before the treaty).

[@A.Martin]

I think the fins have been around far longer, the tower has probably existed since the very beginning. But someone who went through the tower must have created the treaty that each door frame has.

[@rickd7373]

So the Eelfinn get to keep your memories... sorta like Facebook?

[@jamesrose3531]

🤣🤣 exactly like FB, actually. You don't lose them, they just 'feed' on the emotions from them. Lol

[@pexrinne5144]

The only Finn in the tvshow is going to be Peter Franzén.

[@WoTUp]

Lol

[@dkmoon7543]

** Spoiler** I was a little surprised that only Mat went through the Rhuidean doorframe. Moraine and Rand never even seemed to consider what that doorway might offer even if they didn't know it was wishes. I would think they would both consider wishes to be beneficial. We don't see Moraine's perspective in Rhuidean, so we don't "know" if she entered, but her entering later with Lanfear suggests she hadn't previously entered. Perhaps had Moraine entered at Rhuidean, the later time with Lanfear would have only allowed Lanfear and Moraine would have simply passed through air and fell on the ground (saving her from being lost). Stuff we just don't know.

[@Violetsoul6]

I actually believe that when Rand and Moiraine went through the first doorframe, they were told something about the other one in Rhuidean. I think Moiraine was told that she would be going through it, but exactly how she does. Not sure what they would have told Rand, but maybe he was told NOT to because of who he was? Just a thought.

[@jamesrose3531]

Interesting thought... but it would have changed the story a LOT. So I suppose we can say they didn't for the glory of the plot. 🤣🤣

[@athomenotavailable]

I don't think they will appear in the show, at least not unless the show fail to portray all other book elements well enough to hook audiences and have to keep on throwing in new things to maintain viewership.

[@hammargaidin3233]

Blood and bloody ashes! 😂 u do your research. How do you find the time?

[@WoTUp]

Usually when I'm supposed to be doing something else ... lol

[@andrewberenson5717]

IIRC, they speak in the old tongue to males; but common tongue to females

[@nestrior7733]

Actually no. Both Rand and Moiraine had interpreters present in the Tear door frame, only Mat didn't.

[@nr63kish]

You're not going to spoil any plot points or story archs as they don't give a fuck about the books.

[@mre677]

sell me shirt

[@tedl2711]

At 10:27 separation of iron and steel is stupid. Steel is usually high content of iron. So in snakes and foxes steel would have same effect of iron. Obviously this man didn’t do well in chemistry

[@jamesrose3531]

How do you know the addition of carbon doesn't negate the effect that iron has on the Finn? You don't. 😊

[@Bruced82]

It's a nod to fae folklore, which specifically states iron or 'cold iron' as a weakness to them, steel is not pure enough in the scope of legends.

[@mmccrownus2406]

no, they are quite bad, selfish, unlawful, unkind. EVIL

[@Spthomas47]

Not that I feel you're necessarily using it as such, but "makes sense?" is _generally_ a condescending phrase. Enjoyable video otherwise.

[@MrCyberMuffin]

Urgh, really?

[@jamesrose3531]

Disagree. 😊

[@GaysianAmerican]

Kitsunes are foxes and snakes are naga