When Autism and Narcissism are Combined with Jodi Carlton

Have you wondered, "Is this Autism, Narcissim or Both?" I used to think the two were mutually exclusive, but with additional research and talking with colleagues, it is possible to have both. My guest and fellow autism specialist, Jodi Carlton discusses the difference between the 2 when someone has both or possibly had a narcissistic parent and is mimicking narcissist traits.
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[@silverriver7866]

It seems to me that the combination is more common when the person is undiagnosed and trying to hide or mask their symptoms using manipulative tasks. They may not have the personality disorder but use the same tactics habitually. (Yes, the narcissistic script!) I agree they often have been raised by a narcissistic parent and learned those techniques from parents. Another time it appears is when the anxiety in an ASD individual overrides everything including their NT spouse.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

I see that as well in undiagnosed and I see a high volume of this in Christianity as well behind the entitlement men have been taught in marriage- that combined with undiagnosed autism to me creates the most difficult autism- narcissism connection in Christian men.

[@user-wb3qo5mh9w]

I am 34f, I believe I am AuDHD, was abused growing up and my parents were always at each other's throats fighting growing up. my mother for sure is a covert and I believe my father is where I got my AuDHD from. This describes their dynamic perfectly. I also think that having 6 kids before age 29 affected her brain development, not to mention being a high school drop out.

[@sherlockhomeless7138]

I'm an autist and I'm absolutely sure I'm a covert narcissist as well. People just won't suspect it, because as an autist I've learned to adapt and hide things at a young age. About treatment... I think it's possible to behave 'normal' for a while, but if your motives are always bad, then the root is probably never gonna change. Except if God intervenes in a supernatural way. It looks like I really don't care about other's feelings. BUT... people won't notice because I do act like I care, because God watches me and because criticism from others hurts a lot, so I don't want to be criticized. Next month I see a psychologist.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

Do you think you are NPD or like Jodi suggest possibly masking or mimicking NPD traits?

[@marjol3in]

​@@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536 unfortunately no answer from that person. I was curious as well.

[@annap2523]

You mean to say stupid people don't notice and you have found your cozy corner probably by reigning among unintelligent people you (intentionally? Who knows, maybe not) surround yourself with. Hahaha so funny! The arrogance of the narcissists is always so deliciously amusing. Also God will intervene? Hahahaha

[@zacara8469]

Hey there, I'm AuDHD as well and have gas lit myself into believing I was a covert narcissist due to the overlap in traits. I don't think I am now, but I definitely have narcissistic traits coming from a mentally ill family and having a borderline mother. I'd really like to hear your response after your visit with a psychologist.

[@sherlockhomeless7138]

@@zacara8469 Hmm. Maybe in a private conversation I would let you know. Not here

[@ziggypip2938]

I researched it for years and years and talked to specialists. My ex definitely 💯 had ASD AND NPD!!

[@tobynfinn123]

I'm a year still figuring and I'm totally convinced, he is auadhd and hugeeee narcissistic. I could feel a hugeeee disconnect and that there was a facade, he would say I really care but the action was odd and I was able to tell it wasn't asd at all! I can't believe it's taken me so so long to dissect him, although I'm not with him!!!

[@laurainrevison1162]

Apparently you could have autism and a cluster b, which would include NPD...so yeah. Most probably have borderline, especially if they were not diagnosed. It all stems from trauma. That's like all the people that were diagnosed with ADHD only and they find out that Autism, and ADHD can be comorbid. It can. These doctors need to go back to school that actually teaches reality.

[@sarahjaye4117]

I feel like I have that, bpd

[@irisknapp2759]

Really good thought provoking conversation on neurodiversity and narcissism. You gave much needed clarity.

[@MrsLympha]

I have a family member who is in an abusive relationship. The GF claims to be ASD, ADHD, but her actions scream narcissistic than any of the others. She controls his every action. She needs him to cater to her every whim because she is very high functioning (if at all) ASD and needs him to make sure she is not overstimulated in any way. Meanwhile, she works at a makeup counter at a local department store. Part-time, of course, because she's ASD. He works over 50 hrs a week to support them and has no free time for anything except to run her places because of her ASD. Not work though, she can drive to work. They live an hour away from her family and 3 hours away from any of his. He had not seen us in over a year and hadn't spent a holiday with us in two years. He walked into our home saw how happy we were to see him and turned and left the house. No matter how hard he tried he couldn't get her to come back into the house. The house consisted of 8 family members, all of whom she had met before and were told would be there. Somehow it was all his fault. He should have known better and done better to prevent her from having an episode. I have friends, who have children with ASD. I have never seen or heard of them behaving in this way. But I'm an evil person for not accepting her ASD. My thought is, Im respecting the ASD community because I can see through her manipulation - not masking. Too very different things, IMO.

[@silverriver7866]

My ASD SO doesn’t change highly ingrained scripts. He tries and “gets it” for a moment but the new thought “escapes” very easily and he goes back to the original script.

[@iamthechangemaker]

I learned to use neuroplasticity to literally change my mind. It took A LOT of introspection and positive affirmations to get from being oblivious to other people's needs to the point of being a high-empath.

[@gingertaylor246]

I love learning from Jodi! Very informative.

[@iamthechangemaker]

holy frick, this was so enlightening. It also made me very aware of the patterns/scripts that my autistic friend has from her narc mom and that she will act out in weird ways in order to make herself feel better about her own situation.

[@liveyouryoga]

The one with the narc script mirrors the narcissistic mother and stepfather, but even still, the person showed more emotional empathy, i.e when called out on behaviours. The mother was my very very bad boss who exploited a disabled senior. Power of Attorney financial abuse.

[@infinite10045]

I suspect that my family was neurodiverse, and there were also PDs in the mix. Tons of abuse. It makes for an abuser who is very broad in the way they handle things. They're very obvious, and then are ashamed of being "seen" which makes them lash out more. So it escalates the abuse due to their inability to be charming. They can be hugely effective at work, but not really well liked. But they can be extremely successful. Think Elon Musk, not trying to discuss whether he's a bad person. But he works 80 hr weeks I've heard. They can be a lot more popular than other types of autistics, because they have low standards in the quality of people they want near them, and are likely to seek out status/influence. They join cliques and that can protect them from being bullied themselves. But I think frequently they end up loners, shut ins (even if successful), maybe perfectionists due to their egos. This type of abuser can end up a monster more quickly than other people. Because it makes them more vulnerable to trauma, they're more likely to punish their bullies or take their anger out on vulnerable people/animals. I've always suspected I myself am on the spectrum and don't think I'm like this. I think empathy is an important motivator, whether you are oriented to try to do better and avoid hurting others, and to be able to form healthy bonds.

[@shinebabyshine.]

this comment is so on point

[@rachelmartin2424]

This was very interesting & enlightening.

[@IndigoAngel1448]

I want to engage in treatment!!! I'm autistic and I'm also a narcissist, it's taken me a year to get psychology!! All f*cking year!!! It's hard enough being a hypervigilant autistic and I don't need my OWN sh*t pulling me down every f*cking day!! I just want someone to listen to me and understand where I'm coming from without judging me!!! I DON'T want to be this way!!

[@vanessak.2353]

Hi Stephanie, I just looked this up and this popped up. I know my spouse is both, thanks for covering this, especially since I emailed you this question last year. Its quite the combo, smh. I miss the group and I love seeing how God has expanded you guys' ministry. 💜 -Vanessa

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

Thank you for the question- we do try to answer as many as we can with experts who can answer those questions!

[@annap2523]

Of course, both can co-exist. One of my friends is one. They are SO annoying sometimes and when that happens I give them a piece of my mind. I don't think they co-exist often though... Non-autistic people must have heightened narcissistic traits a lot more often.

[@liveyouryoga]

Very very good.

[@sunnyday6465]

I was almost killed by an autistic brother who over years had picked up dangerous 'scripts' from another disturbed narcissist relative. I had not seen him for many years and was totally taken by surprise. I am now no contact with both.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

I am so sorry to hear this! That is awful

[@juliekong5013]

It seems there’s a presupposition here that “narcissism” is a physiological condition that one “has,” that one is born with? A neurodivergence, if you will? I see “narcissism” as a *character* issue- one that is formed, molded, affected by all kinds of experiences etc…… and on a spectrum common to all of humanity. One can be soft-hearted, hard-hearted, and everywhere in between. Humble …… to arrogant and prideful. Does autism *contribute* to character formation? It *can*, just like past trauma, or church/social culture, etc But it’s not *determinative* of one’s character. The heart is determinative. A soft heart is willing to consider possible contributing factors and desires to grow and mature in character, even in the face of what might be limited neurological capacities or bodily ailments. A hard heart …… is not willing. When there’s evidence of a soft heart, despite any limitations/biological conditions, some degree of a healthy relationship can be possible. That’s my take.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

Autism is definitely neurological wiring. NPD is not a clear this is what it is- some suggest neurology, some suggest trauma, some said environment and how raised. Personality pathologies are very difficult to treat but there has been some treatment success in personality disorders with the right specialist

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

If I sense any narcissism I refer first to a specialist- right now I send people to Dave Hawkins- Marriage Recovery Center if there is any suspicion of narcissism or traits.

[@liveyouryoga]

I know two people, one with a narc script and the other where ODD turned into narcissism.

[@lingbex]

My dad is a autistic grandiose narc. You can see it in his eyes.... his autism is oblivious but his narcissism has an evil glint of intentionality.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

That is a very difficult combination!

[@laurabeigh283]

Both the aspies in my life are also narcissists

[@autisticautumn7379]

Its nearly always sensory stuff that triggers me . I try to explain this so there isn't so much push back that I either shut down or get angry .

[@vanessak.2353]

Yup, i fell down while pregnant about 7 months and he took his time picking me up off the ground and then said "Look now everyone is looking". Didnt ask me if I was okay and proceeded to keep walking. I said I need to go to the hospital and he looked bothered. We went and as i layed on the bed, he sat in the corner or his phone. Another time, I fell and he asked why didnt i watch where i was going. Driving recklessly when i confronted him on a lie with our newborn in the backseat. I left with our child and he went to family court the next day and filed for custody. Just evil. He is now in a rush to divorce and he's already engaged. This will be his 3rd marriage. ASD- he lacks eye contact, secretly stims, watches baskerball all day BUT gives me the silent treatment, removed his ring for months, and withheld sex from me. Didn't like sudden changes in routines and took the same route home, everyday. He would hide my keys when I finally wanted to go out. Wouldn't eat the lunch I prepared. We would go on picnics and I would spend time making sandwiches and he would go and order Chinese food after I packed everything. Very specific about time. I say it's 10 of, he would say "no, it's 10:51". Hopefully, all these examples can help someone. Thoughts? I wish you weren't so famous now, because i need a session😂

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

Thank you for these examples and I am so sorry you experienced them. There are some referrals on my site- I think you would love Dr. Mary.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

drmarycoaches.com/

[@shinebabyshine.]

wow, he def sounds like both

[@zacara8469]

Mmm yeah, that does sound like both.

[@liveyouryoga]

An autistic who gets narcissistic supply. This doesn’t seem to be common, but again it depends on circumstances.

[@kathyhartnell6544]

Im leaving the man you described ! 51 no family, never married, self employed HELP

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

Leslie Vernicks CORE class may be a great fit to help you on that journey and David Hawkins When loving him is hurting you

[@liveyouryoga]

ODD in childhood can turn into narcissism depending on parenting style. I have someone like that in my family.

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

I can see that sometimes can turn to conduct disorder or even more anti-social or sociopathology behaviors

[@user-ey4rc5tu4t]

Think about narcissism psychopathy , sadism Machiavellian …

[@liveyouryoga]

Autistic narcissists like John Doe and the van attack.

[@1timeslime971]

My 39 yr old autistic son is learning a script from his sister, my daughter. I’ve been suspecting my daughter to have covert narcissism. Our ENTIRE family has always SEEN, known, accepted my son is slightly different due to his being a savant. Well, recently our daughter is claiming to be autistic. What the heck,I say to her, “No, I, your mother would’ve known that LONG before now”. My daughter says often she hates people, she’s got social anxiety, yet she plays D&D weekly ALWAYS at her house. She’s a,ways been so very selfish. She’s avoids parties and gatherings where the attention is on someone else. She’s sneaky, manipulative, smart, and silently plans her revenge. Hmmm, revenge for WHAT? She’s spoiled, we’ve always supported her. We’re great Christian parents, still together after 40years now! She won’t accept a no answer, and is addicted to control. Last May was her first Mother’s Day yet she said she was ONLY spending it with her spouse so that he could thank her PROPERLY for giving him a son,,,, WHAT THE HELL? I’m HER mother, yet Imdidnt get to see her on mother’s day. I was vocally expressing my hurt and BOy did she even launch a smear campaign. She became a victim. It was ALL LIES TOO! My husband and i and the entire family was shocked by her slander of me to the family. Anyhoo, she’s now plotting our son against us.

[@EsonIndustries]

If in fact she is covert NPD then she is suffering grievously down there and needs your help/approval/validation it looks at a glance like maybe she gets none of that. Its not your fault but you have power as the mom to reach her core as the only person in the world other than God who can validate her. .

[@infinite10045]

The person who commented sounds deranged. Any normal parent would take this type of thing seriously. Her boy was diagnosed, the girl was missed. It's not unheard of. The venom and self congratulatory attitude are huge red flags. My mother was like this. She herself was likely autistic but also PD'd. She was a first class psychopath, think Jodi Hildebrandt. Growing up, I started to try and seek support, advocate for myself and my needs, and although my mother pointed out my differences in order to get her disgusting needs met (she was sadistic), she staunchly discredited my raising my voice. She played the victim, and I will admit that I put her on the defensive because I called her out on her abuse, but she was just a very sick, very violent person who didn't want her scapegoat in the vicinity of professionals @@EsonIndustries

[@1timeslime971]

@@EsonIndustries she’s been validated her entire life…like daily. Giving a narcissist praise is enabling. They crave the worship.

[@EsonIndustries]

@@1timeslime971 Yes, for reasons. Like a drowning person craves air. Not worship. But validation, acknowledgement, encouragement. Its not just some drowning person, its your daughter. No one on earth can provide that like mom. After you die, thats it, she will be locked in and then the psychologists can bill her for decades if you didnt do your job, until then its your show.

[@1timeslime971]

@@EsonIndustries ok…I crave validation because I was abandoned as a young girl. I had an absolutely horrible childhood…but when I became a mother, I attached my daughter to me, she HAD/has that mother attachment bond that I NEVER HAD…I adored her her entire life….I supported her, encouraged her, allowed her try multiple things until she figured out her…I NEVER had that as a child/young adult. My was and has been given LOTS OF LOVE & affecti9n…..yet it’s NEVER enough. She’s very SELF focused, very selfish…I seen it even as a young girl….I’m an HSP, highly sensitive personality and VERY empathic. My daughter has said she’s apathetic towards people. She’s highly confident in HERSELF, whereas I, insecure and Need validation….IM THE One who NEEDS it like air, not my daughter cause she’s always gotten it.

[@livenotbylies]

This conversation is deeply uneducated

[@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536]

Are you a trained therapist or clinician with research background? Or personal opinion- just curious.

[@livenotbylies]

@@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536 are you invalidating my feedback with a passive aggressive implied credentialist ad hominem? Asking for a friend

[@livenotbylies]

@@dr.stephaniec.holmes3536 to be more specific, the information here about autism is hateful and backwards. It continues the damaging tradition of the Not See doctors who first pathologized people with hyperconnected brains. It feeds the gaslighting fire of the reversals with which the socially exploitative (dark personalities) use and abuse the socially vulnerable (such as autistics). It is very common for autistics to end up in such relationships (including with relatives, because the autistic traits are genetic, so, for instance, an autistic boy more likely to have an autistic dad who is more likely to have a cluster b wife) and dark personality people very frequently project dark personality labels onto their victims as the DARVO