WHEN F1 RACED INDYCAR AT MONZA! The Story of the Race of Two Worlds (1957-1958)

[@AidanMillward]

Check out that photo credit at the start. Not so much when worlds collide, when MUTE BUTTONS FOR TRACKS DON'T WORK. Sigh...

[@eamonahern7495]

Batch-aga-loopy

[@blacktoothfox677]

I did wonder WTF Gilles Villeneuve had to do with it...

[@doctoronishispsychosislab1474]

Greg's vs Primark cracked me up AHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@danschwartz5293]

Just a quick note: Bill Vukovich Sr. had nothing to do with Race of Two Worlds, as he was killed on the backstretch in the 1955 Indy 500, going for his 3rd win in a row.

[@danschwartz5293]

@Aidan: This is a great explanation of these two races; and in fact, if IndyCar series owner RP didn't block it, the Indy cars could again run on the oval; but with several caveats you touched on in your other video: First and foremost is the Monza concrete surface: Having attended the IRL run on two of Dover Motorsports' tracks, at Dover in 1998 & '99 as a spectator and Nashville Superspeedway in 2001, 2 & 3 as a photojournalist for (the late) Forrest Bond's RaceFax DotCom. Unlike (relatively fresh) asphalt, concrete is Very Rough, even with track grinding. Also, the grip is lower; Second, the parabolic banking at up to 38.7° (arctan 0.8) is too much load even for the current Dallera DW12 suspension, especially with the rough surface. To put this in perspective with American banked ovals, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Texas Motor Speedways are all banked at 24° (as is Dover Speedway); and also NASCAR tracks at Daytona (31°), Talledega, (33°), and Bristol (before the repave lowered it) was 36°; Third, since the banking is not "flat" but elliptical in configuration, a yellow "out of bounds" line can be painted not only on the inside, as you see at Daytona & Talledega, to reduce accidents caused by suspension unloading, but also on the outside when the banking reaches, say, 24°, with penalties issued for crossing the line; Fourth is the track width itself: IndyCar can run on the 3/4 mile (1200 m) Richmond oval because it's 70' wide; but they had problems on the 55' wide Dover racing surface (in the pre-SAFER barrier era) as passing was all-but eliminated due to the narrow single groove. On The Other Hand, progressive banking widens the racing groove; but a critical factor is (are) the transitions onto and off of the banking, made more complex because of the banking variation across the width. Fifth, to add to an issue you point out, you'd need high, perhaps double, catchfences as well as the 3' in track width lost by the SAFER barrier -- which costs $500 to $1,000 per foot of length -- and costing millions of dollars; Sixth is insurance and speed limits: A few years ago, I heard Tony George say Indy is limited to 230 mph at The Speedway because nobody would provide coverage due to the (entirely rational) fear of cars going through the catchfences: 3 fans were killed in the CART race at Michigan in (IIRC) 1998, and a year later 3 more were killed at the IRL race at Charlotte. There's also an issue of g-forces on the drivers themselves: When in 2003 CART drivers were hitting 236 mph at Texas, all of the drivers (save Kenny Brack) were "greying out" like a fighter pilot in a hi-g turn, forcing the race to be canceled due to the speeds being too high. [Parenthetically, although the Boston Science Museum states it was the first race canceled because of excess speeds; but in fact the 2001 USAC Silver Crown race on the undercard of the IRL race was also canceled for the same reason during Thursday testing, as due to the test car's rear wheels spinning on the backstretch when going over 185 mph.] Can IndyCar run on the Monza banked oval? Yes; but it would take cooperation from Dallara and Firestone, and more importantly Chevy & Honda, as not involving the engine manufacturers was a **critical mistake** CART made at Texas to hold down the speeds to below 233 mph. Dan Schwartz, Atlanta

[@StreetLugeNetwork]

This is the race where Sterling Moss said he thought he was dead for sure when his steering column snapped. Moss said "my arms suddenly crossed and I knew it was bad... so I closed my eyes and waited for the end ..... then it was just a little hot and dusty.... and I thought if this is hell it isnt that bad" legendary

[@andymb601]

Massive respect for you constantly having to explain the copyright thing and still chipping away with these videos, don't think your work isn't appreciated bud 👍

[@jim874]

I agree.... what you have to say is more important than an old B&W photo.

[@samuel_boivin]

Indeed! 🙌

[@zuriks]

On this note, I have to say that I love these videos just as they are :)

[@robkeehner2204]

He can use copyrighted material... there is a way and it's the reason they exist.

[@andymb601]

@@robkeehner2204 you're obviously a new fan, he had 114 of these videos taken down because of the owner of the photographs used

[@donaldfedosiuk1638]

I remember the '58 race -- wasn't there as I was barely 10, but read about it MONTHS later in the pages of Road and Track. Back in the Neolithic era, the Indy 500 was about the only race you could get ota coverage of in the US, usually by tweaking the dial to some 15-watt AM radio station 100 miles away. I'd just discovered Formula One racing -- improbably enough via an article on Phil Hill that ran in a Fuller Brush Co. catalogue (!) a door-to-door salesman had pushed through the mail slot, and truth to tell didn't really understand what F1 WAS . But a passion was begun that day that burns still for me! A really nice piece, Aidan!

[@jim874]

That's right. I was a 10 year old in 1958 and knew nothing about F1. But the Indy 500 was a big in Cincinnati. as I morphed into a teenager, I discovered R & T and then F1. At first I didn't realize the results were months old. As for Indy, I listened to it on shortwave ... the Armed Forces Radio & TV System network... the feed transmitters were at the VOA site in Bethany, Ohio ... about 10 miles north of where I lived in Madeira.

[@adityairawan1843]

Monza's, along with old Fuji's, banking sections are straight crazy.

[@johnfitsch7781]

Every single one of your videos could be made into a movie. Easily one of the best channels on KZbin.

[@ondraspendlik9759]

I think Rally Monza actually always uses the banking. The last two years, the event became more well known due to being part of the WRC (not only that, the season finale as well)

[@CrunchyMotorsport]

I am a massive F1 history nerd and I have never heard this. I am very intrigued.

[@Durbanite2010]

I think the big factor of most F1 teams not racing at Indy was due to the timing of the Indy 500 being very close to Monaco - remember when Button filled in for Alonso for McLaren at Monaco a few years back? Monaco has always been the flagship race of the calendar, as well as having the biggest cash prize at the time, which would've kept most F1 drivers in Europe for that race instead of going to Indianapolis. Also, Phil Hill relieving Hawthorn in 1958 was probably in relation more to Hawthorn's failing kidneys, possibly exacerbated by the methanol fumes Aidan mentioned - it's strongly rumoured that his fatal road crash in January 1959 was caused by him blacking out behind the wheel due to kidney failure. He had already had one kidney fail due to infection, so it's a strong possibility in my opinion.

[@carlosfandango2419]

This remains a great place for historic racing. Thanks for the rest....................

[@theoddstrokesswimmingvideo1314]

Love the Powerman 5000 reference. Glad this obscure song and race got the credit it was due.

[@vaclav_fejt]

Your story time is much like when I talk about racing to other people, only considerably more coherent and better sourced. Just a pleasure to listen to.

[@benketteridge9150]

Nice to see that SOMEONE has actually played Spirit of Speed 1937 (to give it the full title). I wrote the original design document, but take no credit for the final product.

[@sabinespeed4146]

Never played it, but I loved the idea. I've always wanted to be Nuvolari, not Schumacher.

[@joshuastiegman7365]

Awesome video! I’m from Indy, so I love this history. I’ve been fortunate enough to have seen the winning cars from both races as they are in the IMS Museum. Great stuff!

[@greyone40]

I have read many books without pictures in them. I like to listen to your stories which don't have pictures, and then you still manage to find a few great pictures that you can include. Nice!

[@mrterp04]

Have you ever considered doing a Storytime on the old IROC series?

[@williamp6800]

Excellent idea. 👍

[@jgagnier]

Full layout Monza on Assetto Corsa with a Lotus 49 in VR… one of the best things I’ve ever experienced in sim racing.

[@blairdunn2175]

1:25 Aidan, fuck the haters l. Your stories are awesome and your gameplay makes me laugh. Keep it up bro. Btw, nice F1 book collection behind you. Have you read JBs 2nd book 'How to be an F1 Driver'? Real page turner 👍

[@WoddCar]

We had a story about f1 on an oval that indy used to race on and now a story about indy on an oval that f1 used to race at

[@ianwynne764]

Hello Aidan: This is great. I hadn't heard of this. Stay well and safe.

[@longkeithdiablo8812]

Great stuff Aidan 👍

[@shawnmungur4875]

Every word of that opening sentence made absolute sense to me!

[@jonnyspa27]

As I recall, the 2001 USGP program from Indianapolis had an article on “Race Of Two Worlds” . Mind blowing stuff for the time! Also, Chris Economaki had at least a few pages dedicated to those races in his autobiography “Let ‘Em All Go!”. I think he was the English speaking Public Address /Play-by-play for the crowds at Monza. I really wonder how the F1 teams would have run with American based or inspired chassis. Does anyone know if a team grabbed a Kurtis-Kraft offset chassis and dropped a Maserati or Ferrari engine in it?

[@matthewlawrenson3628]

A lot of the European drivers were, to put it bluntly, shit-scared of running the Monza oval at that speed. Stirling Moss, no coward, said he was never going to do THAT again. Something unlikely to have troubled Foyt, Rathmann, Sachs etc. who drove and won on dirt high-banks at Winchester, Salem and Dayton.

[@paulotaveira9023]

Thank you for the interesting stories. You do a good job finding pictures you can use. I'd rather hear a good story than looking at a good picture!

[@Djarra]

There was a plan to refurbish the banking for Cart in the early 2000s although I think that Zanadi's crash put a stop to that.

[@dansmith6909]

Ignore the ignorant hate Aidan, You do the best You can and I think You do a good job. I can't give a bigger compliment to a youtuber than saying "if i'm eating a meal at the computer, your channel is one of the big 3 i check first for new videos to watch with my food". Your channel is one of the big 3 i check first for new videos to watch with my food. PS: baked black pepper chicken fillet sandwiches \o/

[@ajwasp3642]

I have read every comment, and not seen any hate. Are they being deleted? :(

[@dansmith6909]

They must be, Aidan's mentioned people giving him stick a few times now, and... KZbin comments is KZbin comments..

[@The359]

Always interesting to see my Wikipedia articles turning up elsewhere. I actually was spurred to write the article after the Indianapolis Motors Speedway Museum had an exhibit on Monzanapolis and had the two winning cars, so the photos are my own as well. It wasn't mentioned in the article but there seemed to be a bit of a difference in viewpoints between the American and European drivers over whether or not blocking was a sporting move. Also, the combined results for the heats aren't listed because I simply couldn't find them.

[@finneganmueller9775]

You’re videos are absolutely fabulous, been binging your channel all week since I found it

[@Mercman1010]

I was here pre copygate. I like the re uploads cuz i get to hear cool stories again

[@tomanderson6335]

Great synopsis of the Race of Two Worlds Aidan. It's worth noting that it wouldn't be the last time the best from America and the best from F1 would go head-to-head: In 1971, the Ontario Motor Speedway hosted the Questor Grand Prix, where the top F1 cars and drivers raced against many of the biggest names in both USAC and SCCA at the wheel of SCCA Formula A (i.e. Formula 5000) cars around Ontario's infield road course.

[@chipwhitley9407]

The alternative radio station here in Indianapolis, X103, played "When Worlds Collide" and "Freak On A Leash" non-fucking-stop in 1999!

[@ACasualRacer]

Have you ever looked into the Aspendale Racecourse? Some say it was the first purpose built race track.

[@sethlouden2529]

Great video love the historical stuff

[@mehmarcus1995]

INDYSTARS sounds like a great name for famous INDYCAR drivers.

[@roberthill2219]

What a great episode even with the lack of photographs, thank you! Here's 2 suggestions since you are on a Indianapolis kick lately, the Indy cars raced at Daytona a couple of times, with predictably tragic results. And then there's Ferrari tackling Indianapolis itself. And guess who was the driver? Have at it, Adrian!

[@darrincunningham2142]

Another great video!

[@jimz68]

Always enjoy these history stories. Thanks!

[@JakobM325]

a cool story is also when Mr. chapmann decided it would be a cool move to go to indy and take on the 500 with one of his cars, pls Aidan doo a storytime about that

[@garymeredith2441]

Aidan you did a beautiful job of describing what went on on the oval I'm definitely a formula one fan I never been to Monza but if I did go to Monza I would love to see that over just to walk around it and to see it that must have been something to see F1 cars compete with Indy cars I would love to go back in time and see that for myself so many people here in the US they think that Indy cars and Formula 1 cars are the same but yet they're so far different personally I think the Indycar series is putting on a great Series right now Formula 1 on the other hand with their hybrid engines I personally can't stand them .

[@eamonahern7495]

The original pre war banking at monza was a similar angle to indianapolis. It was only when it was rebuilt that they made the slope what we see today.

[@y_fam_goeglyd]

Honestly, I'm here for the story, not the pics. The pics are nice, don't get me wrong, but they are incidental to the history. Really good story, btw. No wonder they had big tubs to sit in, they needed the space to accommodate their balls. That was one hell of a list of names you rattled off. If talent could be weighed in kilos, that lot would have broken any scales you care to mention!

[@ianchezzog8057]

The 'Greggs vs Primart' thing completely threw me to the point of googling. I have now ordered myself some Sausage Roll undies. Damn your product placement shenanigans, sir.

[@JohnSmithShields]

Excellent video. Not a chance it could happen, but using the old combined curcuit again would be amazing

[@minibus9]

awesome video as ever

[@chrisrose4407]

Don't often learn much from another Holbeach expat, but thanks for that. Very informative, will watch it a few times.

[@jim874]

Interesting that none of the F1 teams showed up for the first race. Also when did F1 start to schedule Monaco on the same weekend /day as the Indy 500? I always thought they did that to keep their drivers away from Indy.

[@AidanMillward]

It was a Bernierule(TM). When Hulkenberg used a gap in the schedule to do Le Mans on a free weekend he tried to book F1 races on the same weekend as Le Mans too.

[@jim874]

@@AidanMillward OK... I guess he had a reason, other than being a jerk?

[@ajwasp3642]

@@LETSTALKENTERTAINMENT ,........... and IMSA raced at Lime Rock too, that weekend.

[@foreverinteriors]

Man, did Jim Clark win in every new event that he entered?

[@AmsterdamHeavy]

Funny, I just listened to that album about 10 days ago for the first time in 15 years.

[@fnafboy-fnafgirlssistercar685]

Wow that's a dam cool idea

[@Holden308]

Never say never, but I'm one of those fans who would love to see F1 race on an oval. And its not like there aren't any around the world they can race on. There are obviously numerous ovals in America that would be suitable. And internationally there is Rockingham in the UK (maybe not), EuroSpeedway in Germany, Phakisa Freeway in South Africa, Calder Park in Australia (I've left out Motegi due to the earthquake damage).

[@dee3368]

I've always been fascinated with the oval at monza ...the giant balls required to race on that track ...I am not sure how the drivers fit in the cars 😆

[@billkuduk1159]

Indy and nascar, should this money at monza to refurbish it and hold a 500. Could be one of new jewels in Indy’s triple crown if it comes back

[@taufiqutomo]

A1GP stories, please...

[@wbradburn8871]

Bill Vukovich could not have participated in the Race of Two Worlds, having been killed during the Indianapolis 500 in that terrible year of 1955.

[@KayDizzelVids]

It was probably the cost of making a car that was built to run at ONLY one race that made teams not do Indy back in the day the most, even when there was a decent amount of time between races, like in 1950, where the Indy 500 took place nine days after the previous F1 race

[@DrBenIngle]

My btcc podcast got hit by a strike from goodwood so I can relate, even when we demonatized the video they still came after it.

[@elijames3041]

Grate racing

[@atherstone55]

The Listed Jaguar was a special one off single seated Jaguar powered car

[@mikel6989]

I saw powerman 5000 just a few years ago at the machine shop. Super small venue and by far the best show i've ever been to. Go check em out if you can

[@kevincorbat7084]

The machine shop is amazing!

[@mikel6989]

@@kevincorbat7084 It truly is. My favorite venue by far.

[@chrisguardiano6143]

I would like to see what would happen if NASCAR & Supercars raced against each other at Daytona/Talladega or at Bathurst especially to see how the Supercars would handle the high banks of Daytona & pack racing or how stock cars would handle the Bathurst 1000. If Indycar & F1 could do this back in the 50's there's no reason why NASCAR & Supercars could do this today.

[@chrisguardiano6143]

@@marklittle8805 then we should have a Trans Am-Supercars race at either Bathurst or at Laguna Seca.

[@danielroth8738]

Check out the Questor Grand Prix. F1 vs. F5000

[@mbgmadbull1141]

Aidan I know you don't wanna get smacked by copyright. Which is why I'm wondering why you don't attempt to recreate certain images. It should be worth considering

[@joribremer5260]

How about the 1981 Pocono 500 ?

[@amelierenoncule]

No mention of the 'NOVI-powered' Yankee cars ?

[@robertkeefer1552]

European teams have run Indianapolis from the beginning. The INDY cars of that era would touch 170 MPH on the straight stretch before having to slow down. The contests in 1957 and 8 are intriguing with two dissimilar types of cars competing. Ferrari tried Indianapolis in 1952 without success. A reboot was tried in 1971 with the Questor Grand Prix in the United States with Mario Andretti taking the checker in a Ferrari.

[@kevinprior3549]

So it was like the Ryder Cup of motorracing.

[@AidanMillward]

But heavily biased to the Americans.

[@shorty808100]

They do some rallying on it here and there

[@flashgordon3715]

Is there a racing game that includes the oval at Monza

[@GregBrownsWorldORacing]

Not new to me, , but wow what a track, I hope they don't demolish it.

[@ajwasp3642]

Watch the movie Grand Prix, starring James Garner, for some good video.

[@therrydicule]

Because a 2.5 liter front engine F1 car would follow a 4.2 liter Offenhauser... The Masserati 250F is an awesome little racecar for the time. But you have a 2.5 liter engine in a car designed for that engine. Even the V12 changed the weight balance in a bad way, albeit it took someone like Fangio to get enough out of the straight 6. This is forgetting the suspension, brakes, tires. Let alone that the Watson was also a pretty good little car for the time. Not as good as the Masserati. It would have been more interesting, at the time, to merge the USAC and World Championship with common rules that are a with hybrids that make nobody happy (like 3.35 liter atmo).

[@sadwingsraging3044]

AJ for the Omnisigorythm!

[@duaneschonbergfishing1585]

World's Collide was also on WWE Smackdown vs Raw 😂 and a NASCAR game

[@ryder_williams]

man if this track was modern, it would be perfect for a whelen euro series race in nascar, the euros getting a chance at oval racing

[@PatrickSwayzeOnDbol]

THPS2 is the greatest game ever made.

[@ImInLoveWithBulla]

“If you crash and die, there’s nothing we can do about it.” Well, to be fair, what can you do for someone who dies?

[@stevelueb7787]

You didn't say, "JAAAAAG"

[@klepetar]

aidan..you gotta change your font.. it makes things hard to read and looks Formula3

[@deanfarrimond7543]

3 videos and still no name drop on the patreon list……… #FeelsBadMan 😭😢🥺😩

[@AidanMillward]

I update it end of every month

[@Javadamutt]

I wish they would revamp the oval and have a round of indy championship in Europe. With Alonso's foray there is possibly enough interest. Heck, get a few Ovals and have a European Indy championship the top team qualifies for the Indy 500

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

we had cart/indycar races in europe . not enough interest to sustain them . if they ever go back again 100% likely to on street/road circuit . ovals just don't pull crowds anymore

[@murraywagnon1841]

Bachiagaloopi :-)

[@TonySpike]

You know, i have come to the conclusion recently after seeing this kind of issue happen to a few channels i watch, that the current breed of commenter is either frigging deaf as a post, an idiot, or just likes to whine, i mean you constantly explain your copywrite issues and they still complain, its kinda unbelievable

[@MsZeeZed]

Internation Union of Professional Pilots unable to perform resurrections debacle

[@garrettthejedi]

Just here for the jazz. Seriously though it blows me away that someone would take the time to type some dumb crap like that 1:24 instead of just moving on to another video, baffling. Cheers Aidan

[@heliumtrophy]

Google Translate Italian guy says "Batchaggaloopy"

[@thirdwheel1985au]

3:35 Let me try... Ba-cha-ga-loopy. Probably still wrong, though.

[@ImInLoveWithBulla]

Baa-chah-gah-loopy.

[@stazz316]

wait which primarch is fighting greg

[@AidanMillward]

All of them. They teamed up for clothing and there's a Greggs in the Primark in Birmingham.

[@stazz316]

@@AidanMillward lol. Thanks for the vid, man. Its great as always. Ive been an f1 fan for a long time and ive never heard of this race before today.

[@blacktoothfox677]

Rogal Dorn. He killed TDF winner Greg LeMond. It was a big misunderstanding between himself and a chap who told him to "destroy the world" in French.

[@blacktoothfox677]

If you cant find appropriate pics; your 'pretentious' talking-head, a self sealing stem-bolt in one hand, a good glass of Kanar in the other, and I'm happy! Hope all is well with you mate. Am hyped to see all the new cars testing today.

[@thekaper]

You had me at self sealing stem-bolt

[@blacktoothfox677]

@@thekaper Rumour has it, the Millward family desk is actually the shitty white one Nog tried to palm-off in Sisko's office...

[@danilomancini]

Bacciagaluppi = "batchagalupih"

[@peteh5636]

A J Foyt had just started his Indy career at that point, so calling him a big draw is a stretch.

[@scottl.1568]

WHAT KIND OF WITCHCRAFT IS THIS

[@dyslexiksteve2488]

Is this layout in a racing game?

[@zakgautier2906]

Annoyingly it is in project cars two... But there's a chicane... A stupidly small and tight chicane

[@fourutubez7294]

It's in Assetto Corsa , could be mod though.

[@adityairawan1843]

rFactor has one by default, but with one stupid chicken.

[@kevincorbat7084]

@@adityairawan1843 bruh that autocorrect is amazing lol

[@adityairawan1843]

@@kevincorbat7084 nope, it's not autocorrect. I intentionally typed it that way.

[@LadyAnuB]

Scared drivers facing an oval? Romain Grosjean has company then although it was 63 years before he faced the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

[@LadyAnuB]

@@lostalone9320 Definitely. but I think he would be hesitant without that incident as it's not a racing style he grew up on or even near.

[@ajwasp3642]

Schumacher refused to do it. Alonso proved F1 drivers could do it.

[@gooddypm]

Stuff them. The talking head stuff is great.

[@Steamy_ray_vaughan]

Ye

[@Steamy_ray_vaughan]

First

[@skojuzija]

I think it was a cool idea but it wasnt very well executed and it lacked interes from european manufacturers. Aand it also wasnt safe so, yeah😅.

[@cosmostrek2001]

and indy car dominated. f1 wanted them to leave.

[@AidanMillward]

They ran out of money, more than they got showed up.

[@ImInLoveWithBulla]

I have played Spirit Of Speed. I love the concept. But the game itself SUCKED.

[@Appetite4Rose]

Tbh I don’t care about photos being on the videos… I listen to plenty of podcasts and just like your quality content, nothing is lost from not having the photos… if people really want to look at them, just advise how they can find them (I.e. what to put into Google image search)