When You Don’t Know When to Stop: George Lucas Screwed Up Vader

George Lucas is responsible for giving the world Star Wars, which is fantastic. However, that accomplishment doesn’t mean he’s incapable of making mistakes.
And, no, I’m talking about the prequals.
I’m talking about the changes he’s made to the original trilogy.
Let’s look at one of the greatest moments in the saga.
At the end of Return of the Jedi, Vader chooses to sacrifice himself to save his son after watching Luke get pulverized by force lightning. The lead up is beautiful, with the music swelling, the camera pulling into Vader’s face, quick cuts between him, Luke pleading on the ground, and the Emperor frying the fledgling jedi with hate-filled eyes.
The greatness of this scene is undergirded by the fact that the audience didn’t need to be told what was going on in Vader’s head. We knew he was battling with himself. And then suddenly the payoff.
But because George Lucas likes poetry, he had to make Vader scream "NOOOO!!!!" Just before he's saves Luke
Why?
So it could match Vader screaming "NOOOO!!!!" after Padme died.
This is what’s known as not knowing when to stop. The original scene was perfect, utilizing the tried and true “show, don’t tell” method of storytelling. Now, it’s cannon that Vader gave out this diseased sounding yowl before saving Luke.
Let me know what changes you hate in the comments below. And if there are some you like, mention those too.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
uppbeat.io/t/clemens-ruh/forc...
License code: M3PHXUO9QAQEXFVR
00:00 Intro
00:07 George Lucas makes mistakes
00:23 One of the greatest scenes in the saga
01:12 The scene ruined
01:22 So it could match this
01:27 Not knowing when to stop
01:56 Outro

[@ethan_webb]

Don't like the AI thumbnail

[@samcer1002]

While I cannot say enough how much I agree the change in the scene sucks - it is quite literally the worst change the special editions ever made - I disagree that it ruined Vader. It ruined a scene, not the character.

[@darthvader0219]

Vader: No.. Noooo! Palpatine: No? What do you mean no!? (Palpatine zaps Vader and Luke to death)

[@xd51000]

xD

[@thefollower2933]

Do I prefer him remaining silent over him screaming no? Yes Do I think that "screws up Vader's character"? No

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

How so?

[@truelove11.11]

I agree that Dart Vader's character is intact, but the "no" destroys the suspense for the audience. Before the "no", we didn't know if Vader was going to let the dark side win and let the emperor kill Luke, but with every "no" Vader utters we understands that he is going to stop the emperor if Palpatine doesn't stop himself. The suspense is lost before Vader picks up Palpatine, because with Vader's no he already signalled that he was going to do something. The moment when Vader picked up Palpatine in the original was so powerful because of Vader's silence before he took action, as we all believed that the dark side was just about to prevail! The "no" took away that powerful moment!

[@pntr92]

​@@truelove11.11I definitely agree with that sentiment and why I took issue with this change: Vader wasn't ruined, but it definitely took away from the suspension and I'd even go further by saying that it took away the subtlety of the conflict within Vader. This was definitely a case of a "show don't tell" moment as we could already infer what he was thinking given everything that led to this moment.

[@Bobby.2000]

I absolutely hate the adding of the 'noooo', at the end of ROTJ. Completely kills that truly epic scene. It doesn't need to be there, it worked perfectly without it and to add it to match a lesser film is just cheap. If a picture is worth a thousand words, that scene, ad it was originally, was worth a million.

[@braveboy1]

I like the original one better since it sounds odd when Vader sais no, pluss Sidius could hear it so he can screw up Vader with his Force lightning.

[@ashleysherlock5705]

You mentioned that George added the "No!" so it would match the end of Revenge of the Sith. This is true, however I'm not sure if you understand why. The first "no" is because he had just lost someone he loves and is helpless, having already failed. The second no is because he was about to loose someone he loves, but has the ability to stop it by making the right choice. Both relate to Palpatine's hold over Anakin - at first he was trapped, then he became free. It's such a beautiful recontextualization of the same simple word.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

So, it rhymes?

[@allenniumfalcon]

Oh shut up it's ridiculous ! It didn't need the NOOOOOO because the build up to the moment was in the subtle acting. Noooooo, just made it moronic for modern audiences

[@ashleysherlock5705]

@@allenniumfalcon Rewatch the I am Your Father moment and explain to me why it's different when Luke does the exact same thing

[@MasterLauche]

@@allenniumfalcon you're on a mission. Find some help

[@allenniumfalcon]

@@ashleysherlock5705 Because Luke is in denial at the revelation. Not because he's echoing his father crying out at his wife dying of sad.

[@cledgefenrir5681]

I don't think that change screws up Vader, but it does feel unnecessary to add in all these years later. Perhaps if delivery was different, or since we have Vader's full history with the prequels. He says something like "No, not again" in some reference of losing his mother and wife it may of worked. Original version was better.

[@xd51000]

True

[@MasterLauche]

I like the No. Lines up perfectly, Vader loved his wife. And he loves his son.

[@allenniumfalcon]

So he needed a big dumb NOOOOO to make you understand that he loved Luke ? My god you people are lost.

[@MasterLauche]

@allenniumfalcon lol that's not what I said. U good bro?

[@allenniumfalcon]

@@MasterLauche It would line up to you Lucas shills if he also shouted "You underestimate my powerrrrr" as he tossed Palpatine into the pit.

[@MasterLauche]

@@allenniumfalcon get therapy

[@Gothicgirlscout]

@@allenniumfalcon "lucas shills" the guy doesnt even have control over the franchise anymore what are we shilling to?

[@user-ii5bo3pk8u]

Don't listen to what everyone else says. I agree that this part that Lucas added about Vader made the character look stupid. Yes he said it on Revenge of the Sith, but it felt a bit unnecessary to add it on Return Of The Jedi. It made Vader look kind of dumb

[@nobodycares5677]

yes but what do you mean he did it so it can rhyme, return of the jedi was released before revenge of the sith

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

The point was he made the changes to line up with one another. Lucas had been making alterations to the OT for several years at this point. The change he made here was a result of that.

[@ashleysherlock5705]

Sorry, this is my second comment lol but I just remembered that all of George's 6 movies have someone yell "no" in the climax. It's one of his many repeated motifs as he calls them. It creates a continuous theme where each time its said, it expresses something slightly different and makes a comment on the emotional underpinning of the scene. Do you feel that George holds your hand and ruins the climax of Empire by having Luke scream "no" when he learns Vader is his father? Or in Phantom Menace when Obi-Wan sees Qui-Gon get stabbed? Or when Luke sees Obi-Wan die?

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

That seems to add to my point. Structuring in a arbitrary motif so there is symmetry can cause a scene to fail, which in this case does. I stand by the idea that showing and not telling is better. I do see your point though. Well said.

[@ashleysherlock5705]

@@greatwhiteapereviews Well its not an arbitrary motif - it adds a layer of emotion due to the contrast of the no's having different meanings, like I've explained. Seriously though, why does no one take issue with Luke, or anyone else, screaming no? It's because people want Vader to be the cool intimidating villain, so when he screams no and shows vulnerability, people's subconscious causes them to think its silly and "bad storytelling" when in reality its no different to every other instance of someone screaming no, which no one even thinks twice about. Might I add that George is the KING of show don't tell. In every commentary he talks about how he designs the movies to work as silent films. All the emotion is shown - saying "no" doesn't change that, but it does add a deeper symbolic meaning.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

@@ashleysherlock5705 Whether it adds a layer to anything doesn’t seem to answer the question as to whether or not it’s arbitrary. The fact is the scene had emotional resonance shown to the audience, not told to the audience. At this point Vader wasn’t a villain. It has nothing to do with him brooding or being stoic. It’s about letting the actions tell the story. Adding the “no” is pointless, unnecessary, and it deracinated the moment.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

@@ashleysherlock5705 Simple, this video was about a scene that was changed retroactively after its original state had remained untouched for decades, replaced by something that was less than. If you’d like, I can make several videos about the various “nos” in Star Wars to see if they’re stupid. At the end of the day, whether Lucas wanted his movies to match is irrelevant to whether the change was a good one. Simply to match a motif, if it can be called that, is foolish. Instead, look at what you have and ask yourself, is what I have better? I genuinely don’t believe he did.

[@ashleysherlock5705]

@@greatwhiteapereviews Identifying that it's a change to the original doesn't answer the question of why you believe the change makes it worse. If Lucas retroactively removed Luke's scream from Empire, would that make the scene better by your logic? I want to know why if you just look at the movies as they are now why Vader's no is bad but Luke's is good. Personally, I 100% believe the scene was improved because there are deep emotional underpinnings of it all beyond making them match superficially, as I explained in my initial comment about love and loss which I'm not sure you understood. Reread my other comment because that gets to the heart of why George made the change. It's not just to make them match, it's a deeply profound way to highlight the change in Vader's character by drawing attention to the two scenes being similar but different in a crucial way.

[@darthbane3937]

If he was going to add anything, it should have been "My son!" from the radio drama. Not needed either, but fits better.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

I didn’t know there was a radio drama. Is it good?

[@darthbane3937]

@@greatwhiteapereviews Pretty good. It does a better job setting up Leia in ep 4. She only gets to Tatooine at the end of ep 4 of that. Mark Hamel is Luke in eps 4 and 5, but I guess he couldn't do Return as well. The characters have to say what's happening with no narrator, kind of like a manga, though much much better than the Tales of the Jedi dramatization. Worth listening to. When Luke and Kenobi train with the Force it goes much deeper.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

@@darthbane3937 I need to look into that. It sounds cool.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

@@darthbane3937 good name, by the way.

[@james3876]

I remember as a kid watching that scene not quite sure what vader was going to do, the anticipation built in me as I watched him lift palpatine over his head, the only sounds a transition from luke screaming amidst force lightning to palpatine screaming, and then vader dumped him into the reactor core, never saying a word, just doing it. Then later when the prequels came out and they made vader into this emotional angst ridden brat. It was a character assassination of an amazingly dangerous, calculating and stoic super villain. Then Lucas added this to the best scene of return of the jedi, now that awesome experience I got to feel as a child is lost to future generations. They will never know what they missed.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

Luckily I have the special addition DVDs, so I never have to see that version of the scene again. I do give forgiveness to Anakin’s portrayal in the prequels, only because there is a large gap of time between the Anakin we see and the Vader we end up with. Personally, had they had a director who was better with comedy, that would have gone a long way to helping Anakin. A lot of his dialogue seems geared for laughs.

[@allenniumfalcon]

I heartily agree. I was there when Jedi opened at the cinema too and it was a tremendous buildup and coupled with that amazing John Williams score. The best payoff in the whole saga. I still believe to this day that Lucas added the "NOOOOOOOOOOOO" as a troll to fans who didn't worship his moronic prequels

[@Gothicgirlscout]

seriously? thats it? he clips in a sound byte and because of that you HATE it? its a bit off sure but the original scene still exists and most people arent going to care. honestly I thought this was going to be a video about how vader in the original trilogy doesnt thematically match up with angsty teen Anikan in which I was going to point out the fact that the original trilogy started with episode 4 for a reason and george had that in mind since the beginning

[@mlk27743]

Do one where Lucas screwed up the original Boba Fett from ESB - he took the iconic lines spoken by Jereomy Bullock (which was so menacing in his low gravelly voice) & changed it to match Jango Fett from the prequels. Which didn't match the original characters menacing voice.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

That’s a good idea.

[@aaronmays4355]

Agreed

[@rashuv4324]

I always thought the no matched Anakins “NO” when he chopped off Mace Windus hand Both scenes play out the same, both scenes show Anakin having to make a choice to continue on a path or that choice being made for him

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

Is that good?

[@allenniumfalcon]

Why does it all have to be the same and repetitive for you ? The tension and magic of that whole moment is lost when he blurts out those dumb nooooooooos.

[@azaleatree1519]

I think that this lines up nicely Is it necessary? No. Is it "not knowing when to stop"? Also no

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

How so?

[@stephanepoirier5582]

Adding the very paternal talk between Jaba and Han after Greedo tried collecting on the bounty. Forget about the lousy CGI Jaba. Lucas could not insert that scene anywhere in the movie before Greedo tried to collect on the bounty on Han? PS: Han shot first.

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

That's a good one. I know they had to use audio from that scene for Han’s encounter with Greedo. I’ll keep that scene in mind.

[@HSG4meR]

I don't like the young Anakin ghost, makes no sense for me.

[@thefollower2933]

Why not?

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

@@thefollower2933 Not to speak for HSG, but for me, changing the ghost seemed unnecessary. It feels like changing the ghost to Hayden shows little respect for the intelligence of the audience, almost as if the folks who saw the prequals couldn’t put two and two together. Why would he revert back to a younger state? Logically, it makes more sense that the aged Vader we see without the mask is the same Vader we see as a ghost. It’s weird otherwise. After all, Obi-Wan and Qui didn’t change to being younger.

[@HSG4meR]

@@greatwhiteapereviews that's why, the old Anakin after he has come back from the Dark Side was supposed to be the ghost, changing only him to connect with the prequels makes zero sense for the story.

[@thefollower2933]

@@greatwhiteapereviews he reverts back to a younger state because that was the last time he was a Jedi, it wasn't really a necessary change (and honestly only serves to spoil the plot of the prequels for first time viewers) but him turning younger when Obi wan doesn't makes total sense

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

@@thefollower2933 There is a case here. I’m just not sure it holds much water when when Vader saving Luke is considered his redemption moment. If that’s true, he would then be a Jedi, would he not?

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

The point is bad storytelling verses good storytelling. Handholding in a narrative is never good, especially at the crescendo of your final film. And, for this scene, it’s unnecessary. To your point about what you thought the video was originally going to be, well, I’m not sure. Thematically, I haven’t been concerned. If I’m to understand it, Anakin was 22 when the Clone Wars ended and 45 when he died. I think 23 years is sufficient time for someone to change. Any number of events could have occurred in that time period.

[@jeshus_deus_est]

Für mich geht es mehr um die Frage, ob man einen Ton möchte oder nicht. Es geht ja nicht um information. wen tragische Musik gespielt wird, weis auch jeder das es tragisch ist und niemand stört sich. Genau so ist auch bei "No". Ein Problem wird Dialog bei emotionalen Szenen nur, wenn es etwas oder sehr kompliziert wird und es dadurch die emotionen dämmpft.

[@Gothicgirlscout]

ehhh lets be honest if you are judging all star wars content by today's standards then im sorry to say but the original trilogy would not be popular if it was made now. none of it would be classified as "good storytelling" people would brush it off because it would be "too classic and predictable". luke is famous because he is "the original" also you didnt actually reply to the comment you just made a new one

[@blackwhiteclinician]

Why are you talking George Lucas's mistakes. Whatever "mistakes" he made look positive compare to Disney star wars. The worse films of Lucas is far better than Kathleen Kennedy star wars

[@pepe0999]

who cares

[@yahu5988]

the entire character of vader is trash and also his entire story

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

How so?

[@Carpediem357]

AI? Check Bashing over stupid shit? Check Spews BS? Check Just waiting for the woke and anti-feminists BS Do you even know what good storytelling is?? Cause wow this is hilarious. If you ever want bad storytelling just watch the new Percy Jackson show. If you want good storytelling watch the OT and Prequel Trilogy Edit: he likes Nerdrotic so he's one of the Grifters lmao. 😂😂😂

[@greatwhiteapereviews]

Grifters? How so? And to which part of the video are you asserting AI? Something I said? How the video was formulated? The thumbnail? Does the use of AI necessarily equate to bad?