Where Did Goth Teen Subculture Come From and Why is it Associated With Roman Invaders?

[@TodayIFoundOut]

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[@Reverendshot777]

You know, Hello Fresh say they source locally but for the last month or two we haven't been able to get recipes containing sausage or minced meat in Northern Ireland because they couldn't get it across the new customs border. So I call the 'locally sourced' into question.

[@starblomma]

Uhm... HelloFresh is a German company that does serve the UK and other parts of Europe as well so not sure why you say you can't get it in Europe ^^

[@NBM397]

Siouxsie Sioux is pronounced "Suzy Sue". Her name was (is?) Susan. Look up the Sioux indians.

[@voidremoved]

try raman invadors

[@tamasmihaly1]

Si_ooxi Sue would approve.

[@Condorito380]

"If you're so goth, where were you when we sacked Rome?" -a shirt I owned in the 90s. I was really popular, as you can guess.

[@petenielsen6683]

I had to look it up. It's still available even now. I think I might order one.

[@akl2k7]

I want that even though I'm not Goth. Then again, I do study Latin for fun... It might be right up my alley even if I study the language of the invaded.

[@gregorywaynemartin9613]

That's awesome.

[@hunterflowerson4460]

Love it

[@the_kombinator]

The Visigoths will have some words with you.

[@betttrbeth]

I was goth when I was a teenager. I still love the music, The Cure, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie, The Damned, Sisters of Mercy, The Mission, and others. I also love gothic architecture, because if your buttresses aren't flying, are you even trying?

[@JNoMooreNumbers]

I liked that but I like all types of music. It's not just music and not put myself in a box. I feel like a lone wolf punk goth in a semi rural area. Phase? Nope. Neighbors probably think Im weird but never got to know me though they're rarely outside and spread out. Though grubbies working in the yard. With covid, lots of jammie days.😹 I thought goth was really more literature and architecture too.

[@Terri_MacKay]

Same!! The Cure is still my favourite band, and I passed on my love of them to my daughter, who is now 27. One of my favourite experiences was seeing them with her when she was in her late teens. It was such an amazing show...they played for 3 hours, and performed all our favourite songs. ❤️❤️

[@stevethepocket]

"...if your buttresses aren't flying, are you even trying?" OK, that one's going in the brain bank. It may come back out some day when the world least expects it.

[@JuxZeil]

I still got the hair to prove it..... Just not black. 😂

[@Johnnycdrums]

What about Grace Slick and Mariska Veres?

[@DesolatorMagic]

Really, Simon? You didn't get out the eye liner and black lipstick for this video? We all wanted to see it!

[@rickc2102]

If he'd mispronounced Siouxsie while wearing that, it would've burst into flames.

[@scottmantooth8785]

*i'm sure there's a phone app or after effects filter that would do the same thing*

[@blackc1479]

@@rickc2102 its like heathen holy water 😄

[@SatyreIkon]

I still want to see that. He'd look great in some well done makeup.

[@prschuster]

I would pay big money to see that.

[@mbcase]

SUKsie and the Banshees? "Sioux" pronounced as the American Indian tribe to give us "Siouxsie" pronounced as "Suzy". Pretty big English band at the time, but I keep forgetting how young Simon is!

[@betttrbeth]

I caught that too. I feel old.

[@robanybody4064]

Still, really Simon??

[@jctoad]

LoL so hard when he said that 🤣

[@jeffeppenbach]

@@betttrbeth I caught it so hard, I had to stop the video and hit the comments.

[@scottdrebus]

I cringed.

[@SpikeStarkey]

Not gonna lie. Would have loved to see Simon slowly changing into more and more "Gothic" style with every cut, with the final shot having him just depressed and with an undercut with long top wig on. Maybe next time....

[@MetalTrabant]

In the end, he should've been like Richmond from the IT Crowd :D

[@scottmantooth8785]

*perhaps in the Goth Revisited follow up*

[@blackc1479]

Enough people get behind it and we can make it happen🤘

[@burningpapersun1]

Now we have a new business blaze request

[@MrTaxiRob]

How do you know he's not depressed?

[@CJOwen]

You know you are getting old when people have to do KZbin videos explaining the history of a music movement that you saw manifesting in real time. "Tell us about the Goths again, gramps!"

[@eshbena]

Yeah... I feel that in my ancient bones. XD

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

"Well, you see, back in my day 2000 years ago..."

[@smartbecauseiam864]

While helping my college students to brainstorm a fundraising event one girl suggested an 80's prom. I told her that I attended an 80's prom in the 80's and I didn't know if the kids nowadays were cool enough for that.

[@crimestick6648]

We didn't sack Rome, we just made the dance floor our bitch.

[@Terri_MacKay]

And we have the photos to prove that we were there. 😂

[@stocktonjoans]

"Goth fasion is a profusion of black velvets, lace, fishnets and leather tinged with scarlet of purple, accessorized with tightly laced corstes, gloves, precarious stilettos and silver jewelry depicting religious or occult themes" . . . and that's just the men ;)

[@robbikebob]

Yeah, that pretty much describes how I used to dress.....

[@coldmoonlight6361]

@@robbikebob nice bike bruh

[@pakde8002]

The artist formerly known as Prince (rip)

[@briansullivan5908]

Hard to pillage wearing that

[@robbikebob]

@@coldmoonlight6361 thanks...... If your serious...🤔👍

[@thecrowcook]

come for the teenage angst, stay for the pillaging

[@BracaPhoto]

I love how it's a Goth joke AND current events joke 👍👍 Yes, explaining it makes it less funny 🤣

[@benjaminforman8901]

FROM ROMAN "INVADOR" TO THIS? Daven, did you let Simon make the thumbnail this time?? LOLOL!

[@alfrede.neuman9082]

There’s been a fair few spelling errors from whoever does the thumbnails on Simon’s channels...

[@MisterPogman]

@@alfrede.neuman9082 For example?

[@alfrede.neuman9082]

@@MisterPogman well, “invador” for one...

[@MisterPogman]

@@alfrede.neuman9082 n0

[@LeviticusStroud]

An invader stole the 'e' key from his computer!

[@ladyalibat6564]

Granny Goth here (Robert Louis Stevenson is my great-great grand uncle). When you said architecture I yelled "flying buttress"! Thank you for making this amazing video ; it's really awesome to hear someone going into art and literature instead of talking about My Chemical Romance (they're not goth, I don't care what the Rolling Stone said 10 years ago 🙄). My 🖤 will always belong to Robert Smith!

[@ekc_sc.722]

I couldn't agree with you more about MCR, lol. It makes my dark heart boil when I hear them called goth.

[@robbikebob]

I'd insult EMOs but they'd only cry about it....but if I praised them they'd still cry about it....in the rain....in black and white.....

[@storytellingsnek5255]

They do pull from bands and regularly give homage to them.

[@williamcruz5403]

Emo's are acended goths

[@PeachysMom]

@@williamcruz5403 not ascended. Degenerated

[@malicemew]

As a goth in my 30s I spend less on goth clothes & more on decorating my place as a mixture of an old Victorian home & a Sanrio store 😆🖤

[@arx3516]

As an old goth i'm still tryng to learn how to wear togas!

[@AndrewAMartin]

There's a house listed on Zillow in the Baltimore area that is totally Goth, down to the coffin in the corner of the living room. Totally over the top -- but totally unassuming little house from the street.

[@stratosphere94]

Damn that sounds like me too! I'm in my late 20's and I've got the same decor going on. Think of a purple chaise lounge but add some Hello Kitty plushies lmao it's clusterfuck but it's MY clusterfuck🖤

[@viivii6767]

Mid 30's and saaaame!

[@rhov-anion]

My mom took me being goth well. She offered to buy me black nail polish, a black lace ankle-length dress that I still have to this day, every holiday she'd get me silver and turquoise jewelry, and when I wanted to dye my hair black my senior year, she said, "Why not go blue-black?" That's when I learned that my mom spent her teens dressed in black, dyed her hair blue-black, and listened to old school "gothic" music (Beethoven and Berlioz). 🖤

[@steves_thoughts]

90s Goth, here. To contribute to the lore, in the Toronto scene. Goth clubs, at the time... Sanctuary, Bovine Room, Velvet Underground, The Kathedral, and The Guvernment (large event venue). Thanks for the accurate dose of nostalgia, Simon and Team!

[@grimmace2131]

90's Goth from Cleveland, here, taking issue with the label "accurate" being applied to a video about such bands as "SuXsy and the Banshees." (j/k)

[@empirenow6068]

Shoutout to Anor Londo for making its way into this video

[@21Stryfe]

Ha that was a surprise

[@FrenziedRoach]

Yah, I got a small chuckle seeing that.

[@groundtodust]

Literally scrolling the comments to see if someone else picked up on that.

[@jonyholt]

came here to say this

[@Floridariedel]

Good, i'm not crazy.^^

[@ellaphx]

I remember my dad telling my edgy teenage self that if I ever came face to face with a real goth, they’d laugh their ass off at how I looked before killing me.

[@The_Murder_Party]

Just as planned! It allows you time to escape!

[@calebbean1384]

I wonder where you got the edginess from

[@ellaphx]

@@calebbean1384 years and years of extreme bullying.

[@NyctophileXIII]

As a modern goth and as a strong lover of classical through medieval history I want to thank you for this wonderful, thorough, and generous overview of both. And not all goths from the early 90's stop spending money on clothes.

[@TinyScorpion44]

Goths have definitely moves a bit past a youth culture these days. You can certainly still find baby bats, but you can also find goths who are 50 or 60 years old. I went goth in the early 2000s and remain so, albeit with somewhat less fancy clothes now. It's just kinda hard to get things done in a corset and full skirt.

[@MysticHeather]

Thank you for saying this, I get so sick of people relegating goth to teenagers. Once a goth always a goth in a lot of ways...

[@TinyScorpion44]

@@nharber9837 It really was a club based culture to start and minus the pandemic, really does remain so today. However, many of the early artists weren't much over the legal age, for example Siouxsie Sioux was still a teenager when she started in music. By no means is youth a requirement though

[@jrmckim]

Cant find good shoes in hot topic these days.

[@adriajawort]

You are an emo not a goth though.

[@kodakodiak3949]

I love that when he is talking about what makes things look gothic and shows a cathedral (about at the 4:25 mark), its just the Anor Londo cathedral from Dark Souls lol

[@user-ee9cz6mc1x]

Was looking for this

[@user-ee9cz6mc1x]

Bloodborne would have been a better fit for this.

[@jagdteaguer]

Come for this 🤣 You Died

[@liquidvapour]

@@user-ee9cz6mc1x Anor Londo tho' 😅

[@stephaniesews6603]

And I was like.... Isn't that Dark souls? Nah. Damn. I was right!

[@rumrunner8019]

Here's a better question: when did Goth and Industrial start going hand in hand? There is a difference between army surplus, spiked collars, combat boots and angry music about cyborgs, violence, rebellion and the apocalypse and lace, velvet, eye liner, and music about sadness, loss, the occult and romance. How the hell did the two ever get mashed together?

[@Cabral24101972]

Look up Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, Cabaret Voltaire, ADF and Ministry. That should give you an idea or somewhere to start your quest.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I didn't realize they had been... that's what I get for last checking in on those subcultures 20 years ago...

[@brucetucker4847]

The real question is how they separated. In the 80s there really wasn't the genre specificity you started seeing in the 90s; bands and fans had different styles, but it was mostly one big subculture with someone more interested in some aspects and others more interested in others. The size of the fan base was much, much smaller than it was after the indie explosion of the early 90s and outside of the biggest cities (NY, LA, London) there weren't enough people to support multiple scenes. The only place you heard any of it on radio was college stations, which usually meant one per town.

[@rumrunner8019]

@@johnathanrhoades7751 It was always "Goth/Industrial" night. How did the two combine is what I'm asking.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

Goth is all about individualism and self-expression: Whether you express distain for authority and industrialism through army surplus, or mainstream conformity through corsets and collars - its all about expressing who you are. Of course, often it just comes down to what you think looks good, without the need for political subtext. It's what I love most about being goth: There's no rule that you *must* wear something in particular - you don't even need to dress in all black all the time, and lipstick/eyeliner is optional. Likewise there is no political philosophy or lifestyle that must be observed; libertarian or communist, wiccan, christian or atheist, anyone can be goth, because we are free people who value being different.

[@dafttool]

I used to go to a goth/alternative club in the mid 80s (The Vatican) that was 3 stories tall, & since it was owned by 5 college art students, every floor had rotating art exhibits, & constantly changing murals. The best club I’ve ever gone to, by far. Every weekend it would be completely remodeled, so you literally never knew what each floor, or even the stairwell brought you. When the students graduated, they sold it at a profit. One of them became a set designer for Pee Wee Herman’s Playhouse, which gives you an idea of his design aesthetics

[@EviusPistachio]

That sounds absolutely incredible.

[@dafttool]

@@EviusPistachio It was great. It was a bottle club, so they only charged a $5 cover, & you drank whatever alcohol you brought with you,... which meant it didn’t close at 2 AM, but instead around 5 AM. Most didn’t even arrive until after midnight. It was an incredible atmosphere. Progressive music. A rave bar before raves were a thing. We would dance & sweat so hard, that by the time you left, you had already sobered up. Very inclusive. Lots of interesting people. One night, I even met a Black skinhead. 😱 Lol He said he liked their music 😳 [Your name reminded me of the band that was playing that night. The Psychoviolents. One of my (platonic) pink-haired girl friends was dating the lead singer.] I will treasure the memories.

[@teodorapetkovic]

"... And Batman lives in GOTH-am of course" it all makes sense now

[@violetdusk1968]

Yes I think catwoman in batman returns was what pulled me towards this style before I even knew what it was.

[@harryface1633]

I was goth in 1982 in Topeka ks. When we wore straight black drank coffee & listened to punk metal.

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

How'd you drink the coffee? Black?

[@harryface1633]

@@DonVigaDeFierro black & as strong as possible.

[@brucetucker4847]

You left out smoking cloves.

[@harryface1633]

@@brucetucker4847 most chained smoked cigs but yeah we had our clove smokers & they stunk to high hell. Don't forget the caffeine pills that made our hair fell like it moved around on our heads.

[@harryface1633]

Believe the caffeine pills had ephedrine in them.

[@maxcorvus1174]

Goth is not only a teen subculture, many of us are 40+ and still enjoy our way of life.

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

Did anyone else noticed how "Invader" was spelled wrong in the title? lol.

[@PerryKobalt]

Your not the only one Mr Headshot President

[@martinwinther6013]

@@PerryKobalt YourE?? - sry, couldnt help it.. ;)

[@ericvulgate]

@@martinwinther6013 not sorry

[@joycejames8461]

You can learn a lot from Simon's videos, I now know that I've been misspelling 'invador' and mispronouncing 'Sooksy and the Banshees' for years.

[@PerryKobalt]

@@martinwinther6013 : D XD Funi lolq

[@macroman91]

You know what they say about being a Goth artist? It's a good way to go Baroque! (ducks!)

[@webvader3006]

“It was a renaissance era burn to call yo momma’s house gothic!” 😂🤣

[@matthewstephens8630]

Was never into the Goth thing when I was younger, I fell in love with the punk scene though, so definitely had a fair share of Goth pals and a couple girlfriends into it. Really always found it interesting, especially those whom grew up but never grew out of it. Some of the very best, kindest people in the general public, are the ones walking around looking "weird". I never grew out of my "phase" and have respect for all who held onto it the same. Sorry for the novel. Cheers friend! 🍻

[@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980]

Goths, Punks & Metalheads despite the stereotypes. Tend to be some of the most passive & polite people who you'll ever meet. I think part of it comes from the sheer shock factor. When you see someone looking like they'd rip the head off of a kitten with their teeth. Helping a little old lady cross the road it makes people do a double take. It never fails to make me laugh inside to see people's reactions when a. Goth, Punk or Metalhead does something 'nice' or is polite in public. & watching how people's jaws hit the floor. 🤣

[@deboralee1623]

as i recall, the Python "Attila the Hun" sketch featured Eric Idle, in blackface, saying something about a "whole lot of Visigoths".

[@mikitz]

A great parody of the moronic sitcoms of the era.

[@jimsteele4017]

"Mister Hun Sir? There's a whole hoard of them marauding Visigoths to see y'all!"

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

Do Visigoths like Spam? Or were they Vikings?

[@byronofrothdale]

Because visigoths fought with the Romans and ostrogoths at Attila's side.

[@arte0021]

Blackface is unacceptable and wholly evil! Eric Idle should be ashamed of commiting such a despicable vile act equivalent to genocide!

[@indigop38]

Don’t forget rocky horror picture show’s major contribution.

[@honeybadgerisme]

😂👍🏽

[@robbikebob]

It's just a step to the left. .....

[@brucetucker4847]

@@robbikebob a JUMP to the left... and then a step to the ri-i-i-i-i-ight!

[@Milliardo5]

Still listen to The Cure, Siouxsie, Bauhaus, The Damned, The Mission, Sisters of Mercy, etc since the 80s. 51 now and never really stopped listening.

[@lucasahlberg4340]

nice to see another mission fan feel like we have a lot in common

[@GaudiaCertaminisGaming]

My favourite Goth hit is 'The Monster Mash'. That's Goth isn’t it?

[@LadyDoomsinger]

If you want it to be. Goths are very casual about what it means to be goth and what makes someone goth. Sure, some will inevitably yell "Poser!" at the slightest disagreement in style or philosophy, but on the whole goths are mostly about individualism and self-expression.

[@JNoMooreNumbers]

Goth isn't just music. I like all genres mostly.

[@bumpytoad4464]

I too enjoy "Monster Mash" thoroughly.

[@j0an-07-arc6]

@@JNoMooreNumbers goth is many things not just music

[@jimboAndersenReviews]

My first thought was: Wait, oh, surely not? But most of my counter arguments fall apart. I best pretend I never got on that thought train. I like to meet people, drink beer, go home and get invited again :3

[@zsoltsandor3814]

Nobody in Late Medieval Europe: Literally not a soul: Italian Renaissance: "OK GOTH."

[@leniepenie3419]

YAASSS QUUEEEENNNN

[@xp7575]

Ok Feuder 🙄

[@eclatshwartzbaumcybertune2063]

Laughs in goth

[@arte0021]

@@eclatshwartzbaumcybertune2063 laughs in "laughs in jokes are cringe"

[@IrilaR]

4:18 this was the last place where I'd expect Anor Londo

[@ursanbear]

LOL, "SOOKSIE".

[@itarry4]

Yhea, Simon the man of er... Little youth culture from any generation.. 🤔

[@ツイーリージェーダー]

I wheezed a little when I heard it

[@ilznidiotic]

Audibly said "you what?" Couldn't help it.

[@keirfarnum6811]

How can Simon not have heard of Siouxsie and the Banshees?

[@MrDragon1968]

Yeah, I laughed at that too. Today I'm going to talk about an era I wasn't around in and the goth singer 'Sooksie Sook'. In another segment I will talk about the 80's/90's Irish singer 'Sin-eyad O'Connor'.

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

The only reason why the Goths destroyed Rome was because the Romans never understood them.

[@TheCivildecay]

"It's just a phase"

[@brucetucker4847]

Theodosius the Great issued his infamous edict banning clove cigarettes in 394 and Goth-Roman relations never recovered.

[@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980]

@@brucetucker4847 ROTFLMAO! 🤣 Don't forget his inclusion of banning mascara, eyeliner & eyeshadow for men. Because it's 'too girly & boys don't wear that kinda stuff' in the same edict.

[@Power_Press711]

Lol that's pretty funny

[@zigzag913]

As regards goth as the music genre, it started off as people wearing vintage victorian clothing, it then morphed into the lots of black, purple clothes and white foundation and mascara, the music was the party on the titanic as she sank, or the stately home before the bailiffs moved in.

[@joanneoliver8610]

So, "New Romantics" Started it? Cool! :)

[@LadyDoomsinger]

It's not a "teen" subculture. I'm in my thirties and still goth (though toned down a bit, except for special occasions.)

[@TheCivildecay]

Time to grow up then!... Na j/k be what you want to be.

[@brimstonefondue]

@Robert Sears translation = Stop liking things that I don't like! I demand that you suddenly stop liking things that you used to enjoy! lol, found the 13 year old.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

@Robert Sears How is being confident in your own identity and standing by your personal beliefs not "acting like an adult"?

[@robbikebob]

@Robert Sears oh sorry, I'll start drinking, wife beating, insulting people and doing the other "grown up "things I'm supposed to do then....

[@robbikebob]

I always liked goth culture and only embraced it properly in my 30s. I know loads of goths that are in their 50s and even 60s....

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

Imagine being the worlds most powerful Empire ruling most of the known world only to be destroyed by a bunch of depressed teens. - This Post was made by the Byzantine Empire Gang.

[@travisjordan3853]

That sounds like the premise of a anime series.

[@mikecochrane1437]

That sounds like what’s going on today.

[@coldmoonlight6361]

@@mikecochrane1437 Accurate.

[@motherrabbit4991]

I was a goth as a teen, and still consider myself. Parenting caused me to tone it down just a bit, but it's still a huge part of who I am.

[@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980]

As a Goth as you get older you don't tend to buy clothes as much as you do furniture & homewares. These days I find I'm more interested in creating a comfortable 'Gothic Lair'. Than owning 20 different versions of the same corset.

[@davidharriss3792]

I am amused that the image for 'gothic architecture' is a screen shot (kzbin.info/www/bejne/g2W1hKGogZaEjsU ) of Anor Londo from the first Dark Souls video game.

[@ABadassDragon]

Recognised it immediatly

[@Jmack7861]

Surprised how accurate this is. Bringing up the bat cave and all.

[@MajesticSkywhale]

it came out one minute ago and you havent seen the video yet.

[@Jmack7861]

@@MajesticSkywhale I fast forwarded through the hello fresh ad, saw the bat cave and joy division reference as well as post punk reference. That’s all there really even is to know.

[@tedrex8959]

As a Goth from the early 80's the lack of The Sisers of Mercy is a big oversight.

[@keirfarnum6811]

Except the “Sook-see” and the Banshees bit. That’s just 🤦🏻‍♂️.

[@PeachysMom]

@@tedrex8959 amen!

[@Idono248]

This was the last place I would ever think to see Anor Londo 😲 Love it!

[@alexandrorocca7142]

In the 80s there were some goths in my Italian school, all girls. What was interesting is that at the same time there was an ever bigger subculture going on called "paninari" with kids wearing very specific brands, like Timberland and Vans (without shoelaces) mostly hanging out at fast-food restaurants. The two couldn't be more at odds.

[@cesargarduno7999]

I started with Bauhaus in the early 90's high school.

[@dansharpe2364]

Lipstick on my cigarette, frost upon the window pane....

[@pirateteaparty717]

The one goth band that hates being called gothic rock. Sisters of Mercy prefers being know as alternitive rock... Yeah whatever Eldritch 🙄😂

[@johnbrazier2272]

In modern Goth culture, the seminal track is usually regarded as Bauhaus' "Bella Lugosi's Dead". Goth also often retains elements of Punk (from which it grew): when you see a Gothette wearing a kilt that's where it comes from. The other thing that's fun is the typefaces Goths use: a logic took place where Original Goths = German, and the most famous typefaces from Germany are all "Blackletter", actually deriving from the "Gothic Script" used across Europe since the 1100s and used in the Gutenberg Bible, but also commonly used in Germany until 1945. So modern Goths always use Blackletter type in any production. Anachronism in action.

[@JL0ndon]

Lol Sooxy? I used to call her that when i was kid until a goth friend embarrassed me and told me it’s just pronounced like “Suzy”.

[@WakenerOne]

I can almost forgive him not knowing that - *_almost,_* (since "Siouxie" is one of the most obvious puns ever written) - but for a Brit to speak of "David BAU-ie???"

[@russell28533]

A goth girl broke my heart in high school. You never forget your first goth girl.

[@christopherh4701]

Legend

[@freedomfalcon]

No you don't.

[@WormholeJim]

"I can't believe a documentary tracing goth subculture as detailed as this had not even a mere mention of neither multi-artist and author Neil Gaiman nor of 1990's TV show Buffy the Vampire Slayer as profound influences on the evolution of goth subculture." -Quote Machine

[@BruceNunnally]

Ok, you had me at "...precarious stilettos". I enjoyed this exploration of the Goth subculture and the actual Goths.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

A pity he didn't go into any of the actual philosophies or misconceptions about the Goth subculture, rather than focus so heavily on the origin of the term. There's a lot more to being goth than wearing black and quoting the Raven.

[@mariusvanc]

@@LadyDoomsinger The video is about where it came from, not what people think about it, which changes all the time.

[@drbenwaymd]

“Teen” subculture... I don’t think it ever was just teens. I was a late 80s goth. Still goth inside.

[@mCKENIC]

Poe, Doors, Cure, Joy Division - ah! My people!

[@glenngriffon8032]

"Wildly evocative if terribly impractical edifices" I love that. I wish we could have more of that mindset in the modern day here in America. "Why did you build this this way? This doesn't serve any kind of useful function!" "I know, but it looks cool!"

[@tomfrazier1103]

That present architecht who slathers stainless all over his buildings.

[@mariusvanc]

What are some recent examples of these "evocative but impractical" edifices?

[@eshbena]

@@mariusvanc Anything by Gaudi. XD

[@CZedby]

@@mariusvanc look up Streamline Moderne, that craze in the 30s and 40s to make buildings look like they were designed to achieve light speed, and led eventually to Retro-futuristic as in The Jetsons. Those architectural fins served no function but looked so cool :)

[@tomfrazier1103]

@@mariusvanc An art museum I went to in Los Angeles, which was brand new some years ago. The Stainless Steel guy had designed it. The Denver airport, a movie theater in Honolulu, near the old IBM building, and the tram stops on the elevated rail project in Honolulu, not yet complete. The last three are made to look like umbrellas or sailboats.

[@brianartillery]

I was a Goth from late 1981, until the early 1990's. Still love the music, always will. Amusingly, I was once refused service in a rural pub, in the mid '80's, for the heinous crime of wearing black nail polish. 😆😆😆 Good video, Simon, although 'Siouxsie' is pronounced exactly the same as 'Susie'. I'm only wearing black until they discover a darker colour, by the way.

[@eshbena]

So, Vantablack then?

[@xp7575]

Sushi Sue and the Ban-sheez

[@brianartillery]

@@eshbena - Wouldn't that be incredible for clothes? They'd look great, but be stiflingly hot. And damned expensive. I had the "I'm only wearing black..." quote on a t-shirt. Black, of course.

[@brucetucker4847]

Fuligin.

[@brianartillery]

@@brucetucker4847 - Good old soot, or what I saw for sale in a rather highfalutin' garden centre, expensive, and labelled as 'Bio-Char'. You couldn't make it up.

[@msfortuknit]

You just named most of my favorite bands!❤

[@briangarrow448]

Partial to Vandals and Visigoths myself.

[@darkstardruidess1110]

So what does "teen" have to do with it ? Isn't it just goth subculture?

[@Heyitsallgoodman]

Maybe 90% of the active Gothic fans are teens?

[@CarolineCarnivorous]

@@Heyitsallgoodman Definitely not! People have been getting into goth since it started, so there are goths in their 60s and maybe even older! There are teens today getting into it too, I hear there's a tiktok community for it even. New music is coming out all the time too, so it's very much alive - or.. undead ;)

[@Anonymous-wb3nz]

@@Heyitsallgoodman Uh, NO. I am 35, and the majority of Goths in my city are even older than I am. Teens don't like Goth music for the most part, they like Metal music, and they shop at Hot Topic. That's not Goth at all.......

[@morganbillings7498]

the most ridiculously in-depth analysis of the goth subculture. Totally awesome.

[@bongo_baggins]

I know that music isn't the focus of the discussion, but I think credit should be given to the Stones' "Paint It Black" as a proto-goth rock song.

[@InMediasRes_vo]

Fun Fact: Alaric can be translated to ruler of all/god king. TFW titles become the only name we have.

[@brucetucker4847]

The same is true of Theodoric - it's a combination for an older, traditional German term for king (thiuda, which also meant people or tribe) and the Latin-derived rex.

[@3323e39]

I want to say that I truest appreciate today I found out for expanding my volume of trivial knowledge and adding to my libraries of history. Thank you Simon.

[@ekc_sc.722]

Hello from a goth in her 40's. Writers, please don't refer to the subculture strictly as a teen one. The title of this video made me cringe. I know people all the way into their 60's that are goth and have been since the 80's. If you truly appreciate the music, literature, architecture, etc., you never "stop" being goth. It's inherently a part of you and not something just for teenagers. People of all ages are openly welcomed into the wonderful subculture. But thank you for correctly presenting the origins of the subculture and touching on the various sub-genres of the music! You almost never see that in videos. Overall this was a great video. Kudos!

[@moodylittleowl]

shhhh....we can all pretend to be ageless and looking like the teens. the wrinkles are not there if we just deny them 😄

[@TheMalkavianmadman]

Most likely it is seen as a teen subculture because the most out there members people see are teens/young adults. Just a thought.

[@moodylittleowl]

@@TheMalkavianmadman at this point its not true, goth it not a super popular subculture with young people, and looking at who attends festivals and gigs - we deffo have one of the higher average ages amongst music related subcultures

[@hooligan3821]

For some unknown reason listening to Simon teach me the origins of the goth subculture just really makes me giggle and happy

[@Cons1337]

I have always wondered about this! My student fraternity is called "Gothia" and we members are called "Goths", but have obviously nothing to do with goth teen subculture.

[@ericvulgate]

@Robert Sears go play in traffic sparky.

[@InMediasRes_vo]

You should probably fix that. Goths tend to be academics who also know how to party.

[@xp7575]

@Robert Sears good lord little boy, I'm sorry you can't get that goth gf that you want, not sure why you lash out at them though, I'm pretty sure every other girl rejects you too 😅☠😂💩🤡💩😂☠😅

[@AndrewAMartin]

@Robert Sears For a 33 year old, you sure do comment like a petulant child... Just saying, kid.

[@ryanrizzo4869]

Man, I'm back in high school all over again. Great content! -A Loyal Subscriber

[@clintparsons3989]

In Japan there are lots of subcultures that dress in unique ways, but goths in Anerica are the only real group I can think of that dress in thoughtful costumes and I always appreciated that.

[@brucetucker4847]

The funny thing is as far as I can tell the Japanese Gothic Lolita subculture has nothing whatsoever to do with gothic music.

[@ツイーリージェーダー]

@@brucetucker4847 Actual gothic lolita here, it does for most gothic lolitas. For us our main artist is Malice Mizer(and Moi Dix Moi) as well as plenty of other goth bands. In a lot of copies of the Gothic&Lolita Bible(popular magazine), there were sections filled with music recommendations, goth diy projects and gigs.

[@Condorito380]

There are a few subcultures that go all in with costuming, especially among women. Go to a little girl's quincieanera and you can see that kind of dressup. Part of the problem is that American dress is so diverse that it's hard to say what is costume, and what is a more regular wear. Some parts of the punk subculture, especially crustpunks do have a heavy element of costuming, but we don't look at it as such because their costume is "make your own vest with a pair of jeans and a screwdriver".

[@KaiCalimatinus]

Ironic using the term vandals to describe how some viewed experimental artists and architects without comment while rolling back on around to it again

[@jessiesratrods1210]

Life long metalhead, life long Punk. I love learning more about my goth siblings \m/

[@thomasdarnall8912]

Lifelong Goth here.... Approved this message Simon. 🤟🤟🤘🤘

[@keirfarnum6811]

Did Simon just say “Sook-sy” and the Banshees? 😆. It’s difficult for me to grasp that Simon has never heard of Siouxsie (like Suzy) and the Banshees. Really Simon?! “Sioux” is the Native American tribe name and it’s pronounced like “Sue”; so “Sioux-sie” should obviously be pronounced like “Sue-zee”. Edit: 🤦🏻‍♂️ (sigh)

[@saena971]

I know, right? I thought I was the only one who noticed.

[@susaniacuone5758]

There has to be at least one egregious pronunciation in each Simon offering.

[@rickc2102]

@@susaniacuone5758 it's his damned right as a damned Englishman to mispronounce any damned thing however he damned well pleases

[@CZedby]

Come on, It's not as bad as that time he pronounced Eurydice as "Yuri Dice" 😂

[@daveharrison84]

He's not American, he doesn't know how to pronounce Sioux

[@MJKarkoska]

I'm trying to bring back that really old-school style...where monks wore their hair in some kind of bowl/Moe haircut, with those brown robes and a piece of rope for a belt. Anyone else in? I see it really taking off.

[@dec0mposing]

I wrote basically this for a class I had to teach for my degree four years ago hahaha

[@evzone84]

So much history to take in, in such a short time. Well done as always.

[@SkipThorp]

fyi, Souixie is pronounced like 'soozy' or Suzy the short for Susan. The spelling coming from the Souix tribe of North America.

[@lestranged]

Sioux

[@robbikebob]

This made me grind my teeth too.

[@keirfarnum6811]

I stated exactly the same. Even if one isn’t acquainted with the band, the “Sioux” part is recognizable as “Sue” and it shouldn’t be difficult to work out that it’s “Sue-zee”.

[@echnaton192]

Have you been to Gothic Festivals lately? Every age group between 15 and 70 or even older... I am 52 and I do not need to separate my clothes by colour. Black jeans, black shirts, black pullovers, black hoodies. There are some dark electro parties with a younger audiences on average, but they still have a great variety. I get that some left being Goth as a phase. Many did not.

[@AnikaRoseCommunication]

Oooh I love nothing more than word and terminology origins! This is going to be a good one!

[@heronimousbrapson863]

My first aquaintance with the modern use of the term "gothic" was from the painting "American Gothic" by Grant Wood.

[@LRM12o8]

"active practicing of non-violence", that's a Paradoxon to my liking. Nice! It's generally hard to actively *not* do something, as not doing [x] is pretty much the definition of "passive" 🙃

[@NeovanGoth]

It not just about not being violent, but actively promoting the absence of violence as a fundamental credo of the scene.

[@crimestick6648]

Slow day in Simon's dungeon. "Grandpa, tell us again about the spooky kids"

[@purplealice]

When I'm seen dressed in black, purple, and silver, someone always acts "what kind of goth are you?" and I reply, "I happen to be an Ostrogoth" (I live on the East Coast of North America)

[@wolf762x51]

It was a bit earlier than the early 80s, around 77-78. Patricia Morrison had the complete look on many occasions when she played bass with The Bags / Alice Bags, under the name Pat Bags. She was really the first to have the complete "modern" Goth look put together, and to wear it not only on stage, but off, and have the attitude ( being herself in that way, not as a show only ) as well. Pat played bass for The Gun Club, then Sisters of Mercy, and The Damned most recently, and married The Damned's lead singer Dave Vanian. She's still Goth today.

[@Nick-te2zj]

Answering the important questions.

[@ButtMcDuck]

Your mother

[@jamescarter3196]

Such a compelling comment. We all think your life was busy and important before Simon ruined it.

[@Nick-te2zj]

@@jamescarter3196 ?

[@TealWolf26]

I feel smarter for having watched this. Thanks for all the research, Simon. I knew the Tribal Goths, Gothic Architecture and Teen Goths but not how the puzzle all fit together.

[@mikehydropneumatic2583]

Joy Division, now we're talking Simon.

[@Vaderi300]

AHHHH!!!! you mentioned the Crimean Goths! I'm disproportionately excited!

[@cruzcontrol1504]

Dave Vanian of "The Damned" started it back in the '70's, his stage persona was Draculesque' and it seemed to catch on...

[@vhsqueen]

Started it? As said the doors were one of the first, a 60s band, the sex pistols were headlining for the damned when they debuted and The Cramps, while releasing their first album in 76 like The Damned, were formed much earlier than the damned and had a more serious goth image as opposed to the dracula look of dave. And we can keep going with acts predating both like Iggy and The Stooges, so started, no... Early pioneers, definitely.

[@shawnkeeling8646]

The zeitgeist birthed ‘goth’ from many seeds, including, but not limited to, Siouxsie Sioux, John Beverly (mr.Vicious,) Robert Smith, Bauhaus, The Cure, the Damned, the New York Dolls, John Lydon, Malcolm Mclaren, sisters of mercy, gothic architecture from Dracula, The FEELING of The Smiths if not in sound and many MANY other sources.

[@brucetucker4847]

@@vhsqueen The Cramps had a goth look and goth-friendly lyrics but their music is too rockabilly for me to consider them a goth band as opposed to a goth precursor. That's even more true for the Doors, their lyrics explored very gothic themes but they looked and sounded more like a 60s psychedelic blues-rock band. And the Stooges were a lot more proto-punk than proto-gothic.

[@vhsqueen]

@@brucetucker4847 well the discussion is how the look evolved, not the sound.

[@florentinogutierrez5461]

Cough 😷 when read the title Teenage Goth Subculture most of us don’t consider it a Teenage Goth Subculture I know started in my Teens still in Goth Subculture in my late 30s Goth Subculture is Music Based I enjoy the Goth Music my favorite is Darkwave and Deathrock subgenres of Goth Music met online Goths not in their in their teens said in order be Goth gotta listen to music and you still enjoy other types of music as well . I came here hear his opinion about The Goth Subculture.

[@bumpytoad4464]

The title is very inaccurate and offensive. Goth is not a teen subculture-- neither is Gothic, Darkly-inclined, Darkly-inclined Alternative, or Alternative identities in general or the expression of these identities. Please respect us.

[@RosiePosey5150]

I got into goth in 1st grade cause my sister ran away and came back gothed out and my parents decided to let her keep it so she didn't run away again. She helped me find clothes from good will. 👍

[@jwmcq]

Q: "Who has time to cook a full meal from scratch these days?" A: Everyone. Almost literally everyone. We've all been stuck at home for, like, a year, haven't we? And home is where the kitchen lives.

[@brucetucker4847]

Yes, my household has definitely been eating more healthily in the time of Covid.

[@PinataOblongata]

"No one has time to prepare a meal" and apparently 30 minutes of meal prep is somehow not the same thing? Most meals don't take longer than that, so this Hello Fresh is no different from ordering your usual supermarket shop online - except supposedly more boutique and thus likely more expensive.

[@arturkarpinski164]

Depeche Mode

[@steves_thoughts]

Rebuttal: KMFDM

[@rickc2102]

I like my Depeche like I like my apple pie... a la Mode.

[@yootoobsuks4210]

Lords of the New Church?

[@Lomi311]

I’ve got to say one of the gothy old west girls from the Personal Jesus video is kind of my dream girl. As a teen in the 2000’s I didn’t know that emo/goth look was around so early.

[@arturkarpinski164]

@@Lomi311 I just watched the video, I think I know the one you're talking about and I agree.

[@davidcashin1894]

Fascinating as always, even to those of us who have already studied most of this history. Thanks so much for putting a fresh face on the subject!

[@PinkSheepification]

4:26 is that Anor Londo in the image? Cause it looks a lot like the bridge where you fight the gargoyle then climb to the left towards the rafters with the Painting Guardians. Any Hollows out there care to speculate? Edit: from Dark Souls 1 btw

[@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980]

Goths, Punks & Metalheads despite the stereotypes. Tend to be some of the most passive & polite people who you'll ever meet. I think part of it comes from the sheer shock factor. When you see someone looking like they'd rip the head off of a kitten with their teeth. Helping a little old lady cross the road it makes people do a double take. It never fails to make me laugh inside to see people's reactions when a. Goth, Punk or Metalhead does something 'nice' or is polite in public. & watching how people's jaws hit the floor. 🤣

[@moodylittleowl]

me, a 28year old goth looking at the word "TEEN subculture" :D

[@nyghteshadow7393]

*laughs in 40 years old*

[@LadyDoomsinger]

30s.

[@brimstonefondue]

@Robert Sears Because everyone should stop liking things that they formerly enjoyed at this odd random age that I just made up. How dare you older humans keep liking things. Stop having fun ASAP.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

@Robert Sears Does anyone else appreciate the irony of people telling other people to "grow up" while acting like high-school mean girls dissing your outfit?

[@Hallu91]

​@Robert Sears I bet you're fun at parties.

[@davidjockers355]

"Eating out can be dicey." -Simon Whistler 2021

[@nocturnalmisanthrope8584]

So many people today think goth is just expensive black clothes and eyeliner, but it's so much more than that. It's really awesome to see someone go more in depth on the history and different aspects of the subculture, and as a goth I think you did a great job!

[@RedactedATS]

Never thought you'd mention Bauhaus. Hot damn, I loved them. I was in the 5th year at secondary school, so 15-16 years old, and as 5th year students, we had our own common room with a record player. We played the shit out of Bauhaus. Good memories. Thanks, Fact Boi