Where did the BOUNCE Go in BLUEGRASS Music?

[@AustinScelzo]

Great points and a really important lesson, especially for banjo and guitar players. One thing missing here though is that there is a different shuffle feel that can be achieved with straight eighths by accenting the off beat. Fiddlers do this all the time and it's built into the common shuffle bowings. If you add this shuffle feel to straight eighths on guitar it can make the groove feel much better. Michael Daves executes this and talks about it quite a bit. It's worth noting that Bill Monroe often played with a straighter feel than many of his bandmates- Many of the early bands didn't always agree on the feel. My general sense is that later bluegrass bands achieved good feel through off beat accents and straight syncopation, whereas earlier (or more swing influenced bands) achieved it through swung 8ths. Many good modern bands that recognize this record albums that include songs with both of these feels. I love thinking about this stuff and think this video is stellar, just wanted to throw this out there as food for thought .

[@mandohat]

@@AustinScelzo great perspective from a fiddle player here.

[@78tag]

...different rhythms can be very hard to pick up on when you are learning on your own. It's a big advantage to have someone to work with and keep you honest to the music.

[@lordofthemound3890]

That’s interesting about Monroe and his band. Chuck Berry often did the same thing: he was playing straight 8ths while the band, particularly the drummer, played swung 8ths. It’s the main reason most bar bands playing “Johnny B. Goode,” for example, don’t come anywhere near the feel of Chuck’s studio-recorded version.

[@lxgmusic5274]

I've felt this difference for a long time, but I never put it into words. Thanks for deconstructing this, demonstrating, and explaining it so well!

[@kw9172]

This is spot on - the lack of swing in "mainstream" bluegrass (combined with a focus on higher tempos and other elements) explain why many bands sound almost interchangable to me. Great players, but the lack of variety in grooves dimishies the enjoyment considerably.

[@skaybaltimore]

We might be saying the same thing. I think "shredding" has destroyed music in all genres. And specifically here, I think all the damn bluegrass competitions have undermined the inherent holiness of the bluegrass (and country) genres. It's become more about egos than music. Just my take.

[@chrischarles1468]

I don’t know what I love more, your playing or your teaching. Both are excellent.

[@mandohat]

@@chrischarles1468 thanks for watching!

[@zekehutchison5672]

Flatt and Scruggs.Their rhythmnic chemistry,bounce ,swing is most eloquent.The sheer amount of variety was awe inspiring.

[@skaybaltimore]

For me it's the clarity and purity of Doc Watson. Everybody seems to be chasing him, but no one has ever really caught him.

[@DubClark]

As others have said, this is really spot on. When I began going to bluegrass festivals (1968) there were often Saturday morning workshops where people like Mike Seeger and Ralph Rinzler would interview Monroe and other performers. Bill would often talk about "the timing I put into my music." Sometimes,Bill would demonstrate his timing and say something like "if you're not with that, you're not playin' right." I can hear his voice in my head as I write this. The feel of the music was everything to Bill. I think it’s useful to remember that lead guitar in a bluegrass band was still rare in 1968. The rhythm guitarist was often the lead vocal as well and, together with the bass had to keep the band on track, rhythmically. Keeping the band’s timing together was (is) a tough job. I've seen Monroe, right in the middle of a song, walk around behind one of "the boys" and chop that F5 right in his ear until he got back in the groove.

[@sterrBurr]

I come from playing blues and metal. Recently started learning bluegrass about 3 months ago and was having trouble with straight fast fiddle tunes until I slowed down, started approaching them more like blues songs with a swing feel. Much more comfortable for me and this explained why that is very well, thank you.

[@tedlivermore6955]

Cool,never thought a metal guy would take up bluegrass.

[@fucket]

@@tedlivermore6955 Another one right here.

[@tedlivermore6955]

@@fucket Yeah awesome,gotta love bluegrass

[@johnmurret2290]

Thank you for laying this out for us. This is wonderfully insightful and you made it easy to hear these differences. The triplet rhythm is also something I never really knew to listen for. Thank you for pointing that out

[@ysocky]

Wow. There are many modern bluegrass songs that I've listened to and felt that the rhythm and breaks were very ~robotic sounding, but couldn't quite put my finger on what I didn't like about them. This is it. I've never thought about it this way but you hit the nail right on the head. Bluegrass just isn't the same without a tasteful swing rhythm.

[@skaybaltimore]

I feel that most when I listen to Bryan Sutton. His mastery of playing notes is unquestionable, but I always leave with the feeling that something important was/is missing in his playing. Soul.

[@Guitarinthewoods]

I’ve listened to Norman Blake’s Whiskey Before Breakfast and Arkansas Traveller etc many times, for the joy of listening and to learn what he’s doing. He’s swinging hard !

[@northernprairiebluegrass4700]

Thanks for providing a table of contents with clickable timecodes in your description. Especially thanks for 09:25 Andy jams on "Don't Give Your Heart to a Rambler" 🤗

[@MichaelMarkGuitar]

Man, I never thought about putting it into words before, but "bounce" is the perfect way to describe that early Tony, New South kind of vibe. I've always associated that kind of bluegrass music with a certain "feel" (just listen to "I'm Walkin" and you hear it immediately), and that makes sense now that you explain it! It makes the music pound like a jackhammer. But like, a syncopated jackhammer.

[@ketch_up]

That guitar sounds absolutely fantastic

[@dustindevinemusic]

Great topic for a video. The song was actually written by the great Jimmie Skinner (like many other Jimmy Martin songs). Thanks for posting this!

[@ermancroney3805]

That 'bounce' is what I called it when my friend Jess Drumright played Tennesee Stomp on his banjo. Never heard anyone else play like that. Great feel and pleasure rich to hear it & play along. Thanks.

[@dannysmithmusic]

The last minute and half of this video is some of the tastiest picking!!! Thanks Andy!

[@stevelacombe5291]

Good advice & demo.

[@Otisleevonridge]

Thank you for that breakdown of the triplet feel and how it really changes the entire mood and feel of a song! Thanks again!

[@mandohat]

@@Otisleevonridge one of the best

[@johnlarkin8226]

This is perfect! I was trying to teach a friend what I meant by swing, and he was having trouble understanding (he could hear a difference, but it was subtle to him). This is the perfect thing to help him get it.

[@gam1471]

A very enjoyable video - well demonstrated! I've always enjoyed the late and much-missed Orrin Star's flatpicking - the pulse and bounce he put into his playing was a joy to hear.

[@skaybaltimore]

Great playing and great points. Thanks for this important video.

[@joemeersman23]

Awesome walkthrough of something that can be a little tough for people to grasp without feeling it. Thanks Andy!

[@BrianOates]

Kentucky Colonels version of “I Am A Pilgrim” is a great example of this swing feel. Clarence played with swing.

[@ivanrosemusic]

Practicing with a metronome feeling the clicks on 2 and 4 helps me keep a swing groove going!

[@jimmccarley9609]

Some of this, some of that. A good reminder to loosen up. Interesting thing about the triplets. Someone called St. Anne's reel, and kicked it off slower, with bounce, it was cool, it does seem to be speed related.

[@dirtworshiper2800]

Damn. Great playing and sound. I’ve always loved a swing even in drumming. Swing just adds a little Something. Thanks for posting.

[@DavidFlorez]

Wow, so much musicality on this lesson...

[@ed2956]

I’ve always noticed this in Tony’s early playing as well as Clarence White. Grier also has that and something else Griers playing has is a pulse. Good and important lesson. Thanks!

[@mandohat]

@@ed2956 yes! Grier has a really strong pulse in his music. Is it an accent on 2 and 4? Something like that.

[@billrogers5870]

Love the bounce!!!! I have tried to keep it in a lot of my playing...... I play at some open mics where most of the music is really straight and the people love the feel of it. When I was part of a bluegrass band that was one of our choices when deciding how we wanted to do a song Driving , bouncey or slow for ballads and stuff........great observation and great explanation

[@tomsmart1970]

Most of my favorite bluegrass fiddlers played swing before or in addition to playing bluegrass. Chubby, Benny, Kenny, Vassar and several others. It's probably not a coincidence that they're still considered to be the great ones. The contemporary fashion of playing nonstop, machine-gun 16th notes leaves me cold.

[@keithchilvers7434]

Exactly what I thought of when watching this video - I always thought it was an act of genius on the part of Bill Monroe to recruit Chubby Wise.

[@cytozin]

Another great lesson. Thanks

[@Cut2Finish]

When I think of bluegrass, the "bounce" is what I associate with it. That's what I'm trying to learn now.

[@johnking8888]

Fantabulous ❤

[@stevebenedict6260]

Great stuff Andy,

[@mandohat]

@@stevebenedict6260 thanks, Steve!

[@lucasmembrane4763]

"Don't Give Your Heart to a Rambler" is also the title of the autobiographical book of Jimmy Martin's long-time wife whom he never married. Required reading for any musician who wants to go to Nashville and be a part of the business.

[@sumner296]

I been thinking the very same thing not just about bluegrass but all music really. Everything just seems to stiff

[@mandohat]

@@sumner296 yeah, too perfect or something

[@skaybaltimore]

Exactly. It's like...where's the fire? It's a lot of ego.

[@TypingHazard]

When I was just starting out as a guitar player and even later in high school jazz band there was a real tendency for educators to advise against practicing swung 8ths. It's been around a long time; even old jazz guys like Barry Harris taught not to practice swung 8ths. My understanding is that they're trying to prevent it from being the *only* way you can play, but it does seem sometimes like the needle has moved a little too far in the wrong direction and now people tend to just play everything straight without any swing whatsoever. I don't think it's a quantizing thing, not solely anyway. Personally, I don't think I ever quit swinging, but I'm less likely to just practice that feel, it just sorta comes out as needed v0v

[@mandohat]

@@TypingHazard so interesting, didn't know that. I wonder if they were trying to emphasize bebop over swing era music. I think you have to do both, right? If someone gets stuck only swinging 8ths, they can always play all downstrokes, which is usually straight 8ths.

[@tommitri]

👌👌👌

[@ketch_up]

All the feedback I've gotten on my flatpicking from top people has been to play more "straight" and more even

[@mandohat]

@@ketch_upI think it's probably good to be able to do both, there's a place for each. Good to get direct feedback from good players, glad you have that opportunity

[@skaybaltimore]

Interesting. One of my favorite authentic flatpickers is Terry Barber, Billy's dad. (And when I say authentic, I mean he was never a professional guitar player but he blows them all away IMO.) When I listen to him his runs just EXPLODE off of his guitar. To me, he's kind of like the Leslie West of flatpickers. He doesn't fit the current bluegrass mold. I hope Billy keeps his dad's style alive in his playing. It's not necessarily "bouncy", but damn...it's explosive. (Slightly O/T: When I heard Sully trading riffs with Molly on 'White Freightliner Blues", I could hear that explosiveness in Sully's playing that reminded me of Terry Barber. Everyone else just plays these flat lifeless riffs and it's getting old.)

[@marksmith5206]

Sam Bush is the king of swing in bluegrass. I can always recognize him on a recording because he swings his a**s off. Also, nice explanation of how swing works!

[@skaybaltimore]

I hear that in Sierra Hull's playing. She has that perfect mandolin "lilt/chop", whereas a lot of other mandolin players sound like they're chopping wood.

[@kurt8805]

I found it more difficult to hear a difference in the strumming. What I heard was fewer strings being struck in the bounce version and more strings being struck in the even version. Tony Rice's strumming is often just striking a few strings, usually the high ones, in-between full chords (or bass notes). The mix of partial and full chords helps create the bouncey sound and triplet strums are more naturally or more easily done when just striking 2 or 3 strings of the chord. My two cents.

[@kurt8805]

Picking varied single notes of a chord in-between full or partial strums makes it easier to get the bounce sound, especially if those single notes are emphasized on the off beat.

[@bbowjazz]

Trad Bluegrass sounds like Hillbilly Bebop to me (definitely swings) … and I mostly grew up in the Ozark Mountains around it.

[@mandohat]

@@bbowjazz love this

[@THEBLUEGLOVE]

What is the archtop guitar behind you?

[@mandohat]

@@THEBLUEGLOVE it's a national. Looks better than it sounds, but it's ok

[@waynejohnson3214]

JD and Tony together had a synergy not commonly heard in any musical genre.

[@michaeladams2644]

Classical musicians can't swing , I had a friend hired by London philharmonic orchestra to help them to swing!😅

[@mandohat]

@@michaeladams2644 😂

[@BMarcJ]

I think the opposite is also true: it's harder to play fast with a swing. So if you want to play fast, swing gets lost. A real shame for hornpipes.

[@mandohat]

@@BMarcJ yes that's true for me

[@Theactivepsychos]

A lot of music had lost its soul thanks to playing to click and quantising.

[@mandohat]

@@Theactivepsychos 100%

[@Theactivepsychos]

@@mandohat I made 200 demos with programmed drums in the pandemic and the best thing ever was getting a real recorded drummer on my music. Cannot beat it.

[@groovelife415]

The true spirit of bluegrass is gone. It's more about people chomping at the bit waiting for their turn to solo. When I grew up in Kentucky, we all sat on the porch picking, singing, dancing, and having a good time. Now it's a bunch of nerds who have never stepped foot in Appalachia. They play at break neck tempos, just wanking off on their instrument during the breaks with no consideration for the melody. The worst thing that ever happened to bluegrass was jazz nerds coming in and using our music as another platform for their BS.

[@skaybaltimore]

I've noticed a real lack of "picking and grinning" these days from most modern "progressive" bluegrass players. And not only that...they look depressed af, and they only seem to come alive during their solos. Especially the female players. The thing is...to my way of thinking it was the style of the heavy metal electric "shredders" that somehow migrated into the bluegrass genre and now it's just a race to see who can cram the most notes in. And ironically, they're still nowhere near as fast and clean as Doc Watson. He found the right balance; most don't.

[@dged492]

It’s called syncopation.

[@fucket]

It's not, really.