Where Do Catholics and Protestants Agree? With Erick Ybarra

This dialogue between Gavin Ortlund and Erick Ybarra explores where Catholics and Protestants agree about atonement, creation, classical theism, and responding to secularism.
See more about Erick here: erickybarra.com/
Truth Unites (www.truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
03:29 - Atonement
26:08 - Creation
38:57 - Classical Theism
54:58 - Responding to Secularism
1:17:32 - Conclusion: Are You Still Watching?

[@thebeatnumber]

I like this non confrontational approach. It has much more of the Christian spirit in it than most other Catholic vs Protestant discussions I've seen on KZbin.

[@javierperd2604]

Great dialogue! Erick Ybarra is one of my favorite voices on the Roman Catholic side -- he's super smart, well-read, and always charitable to those he dialogues with from the other side.

[@freda7961]

@@NP-vk8de Then, you've either not met many (or have a bad Catholic circle), or you've simply ignored the charitable ones and selectively recalled the less charitable ones to arrive at your conclusion that most are uncharitable. I say the reverse is true. Most Catholics are charitable, as far as I could tell. On the other hand, some of the MOST uncharitable people I’ve met are Protestants, but I wouldn't dare to conclude that most Protestants are uncharitable.

[@KnightFel]

@@freda7961funny, some of the most toxic “Christians” I’ve met and also engaged with online have been highly toxic. The KZbin page “How to be a Christian” is extremely toxic. There’s toxicity everywhere, but the boasting of Catholics is insufferable.

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

@@freda7961 please tell me you see the irony of your response?! Go and read the comment again and this time - be as charitable as Erick when you draw your conclusions.

[@freda7961]

@@marinusswanepoel1825 Then, please explain to me why I was being uncharitable. My point was that it’s not true that most Catholics are “anything but charitable,” and that I'd say that most Catholics are charitable (that the reverse is true). But from my experience, I've met the most uncharitable ones among the Protestants (the same ones who would say that Catholics are pagan worshippers or devil worshippers, and use all the harshest descriptions you can think of, etc.), but I would never dare say that “most Protestants are anything but charitable.” Now, tell me, how am I being uncharitable? Where’s the irony?

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

@@freda7961 Your logic does not follow. You are denying the antecedent.

[@SethGullion]

We need more chill dialogues like this, thank you Gavin and Erick!!

[@koyo3376]

I say this as a Baptist, Erick is chill.

[@Chuck_McDon]

Fellow baptist here, if you wanna see just how chill Eric is, watch his "debate" with Jay Dyer.

[@joshuajaison9957]

@@Chuck_McDonwat happened?

[@Chuck_McDon]

@@joshuajaison9957 I'm inclined to say Jay Dyer was Jay Dyer and Eric was Eric lol. But, briefly, Jay resorted to insults and Eric was patient the whole time.

[@joshuajaison9957]

@@Chuck_McDon nice

[@Adam-ue2ig]

I love this guy...he is quite charitable.

[@padraicbrown6718]

Ultimately, I think we agree on far more than we realise. Excellent talk gents! And I think bringing you two together with a solid Orthodox apologist would really bear fruit!

[@javesuan]

In my experience, I watched many popular Roman Catholic apologists online. Erick Ybarra thus far is the most charitable and honest among them.

[@curiouslykristina]

Catholic here! This was a really cool interview :). Would love to see more like this.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I'm just at the beginning, and I love seeing how they genuinely like each other and are happy to be finding the time to do this together. I'm Christian, but not Catholic, and Eric is one of the most charitable and fair Christians out there, though I won't agree w/ him on a lot of deep Catholic theology, that unfortunately divides us. This goes to show though, the division don't have to be endlessly contentious. We can and need to just let Catholics be as they are, love them as they are, see them as the body of Christ as they are, and vice versa.

[@antpassalacqua]

Divine simplicity I think is found in the very name of God, "I AM": a complete sentence understood properly.

[@Dave_OGG]

Love these types of dialogues

[@kyoto8911]

i actually ran into Erick at a local bookstore here in florida a few months back. had a good little conversation with him. super cool guy.

[@logicaredux5205]

Our Lord loves you two guys!❤️✝️

[@CausingLewis]

Really enjoying this! Erick is an awesome guest.

[@timmaddock2672]

A privilege to see my favourite Protestant and Catholic apologists dialoguing! I would welcome more dialogues, particularly on your disagreements.

[@EyesontheBible]

Thanks for a great dialogue! As an Anglican priest I greatly appreciate the instinct to look for the via media and common ground.

[@robertotapia8086]

Thanks @TruthUnites for having @Erick Ybarra YT channel @Classical Christian Thought on your channel. Your Catholic brother Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 🇵🇷🙏🏼

[@sergioayala4379]

This is by far my favorite Truth Unites Video Podcast. Both Dr. Ortlund and Erick Ybarra bring to heart the lens of the Authentic Christian Lens. In 2025 there Will Be a Gathering at Nicea in commemorating the Council of Nicea I in 325 A.D. The concerns are that in Christianity there are very fundamental views afflicting all 3 Branches of Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant) in regards to Traditional Family Values that are being challenged by Same-Sex Marriages, Other Sexual Orientations and views that are in Sharp Contrast to the Gospel Life. Chrisitians in each of these branches need to clearly and consistently return and explicitly proclaim the Gospel Life for Christians within Family Life as a guiding beacon, because many families are experiencing the chaos of our confused culture and world views.

[@sotem3608]

Very interested in this, both of you are great examples for me in dialogue and how to act in the faith.

[@johnmontoya4047]

Amen!! My brothers...

[@theepitomeministry]

Always great to see a friendly conversation across the lines that divide us! Really enjoyed this! 👏

[@bookishbrendan8875]

Oooh, a pleasant surprise. Great to see you both dialoguing.

[@StayFaithful13]

This was amazing! The next one definitely has to be on differences but maybe instead of a long video on various topics you guys can do one Topic at a time in each video. That will produce so much fruit!

[@jonamber]

This was so good. Thank you to you both.

[@makeda6530]

Always fun to hear from our roman catholic bros~

[@ubespam5477]

I re-dedicated my life to Christ 25 years ago and am now reviewing my own particular faith community's beliefs with more mature Christian eyes under a more biblical, theological, and historical lens. Your videos are helping me in the process as I discern authentic Christian doctrine and practice coming from the writings of Sacred Scripture and the Early Church Fathers. Thank you!

[@Burberryharry]

Great video Gavin and Erick!

[@Sonic2Chronicles]

I love Eric Ybarra, so glad to see him on your channel, Dr Ortlund

[@DarkHorseCrusader]

Very enjoyable dialogue. Great job to you both!

[@DDCrp]

Thank you!

[@catkat740]

This was awesome! I 100% prefer this to a debate. I wonder if this could even be a new way to do debates? Start from common ground and then move into where you interpret things differently. Because at the end of the day it’s all differences in interpretation.

[@williamcarter6893]

Thank you brothers in Christ. Our confusion is in our terms Catholic, Protestant etc. It seems it would be better understood when thought of as Roman Catholic, Protesting Catholic and Orthodox Catholic. The same Christ , the same Faith, and we all bring important perspectives to the Holy Body of believers.

[@SimeonFM]

Wonderful conversation. Thank you both. False dichotomies abound in so much needless and ad hominim disputation. We can all learn from one another. To love one another, as Jesus first loved us, we must learn to listen to one another. It is time for the Remnant Church to stand with the Lord In His John 17 prayer. There is a place of fellowship and unity in Christ, without compromise, across the denominations. Lord, have mercy on your Church. We worship you.

[@JosiahTheSiah]

Protestant, non-young earther, checking in 😁

[@forehead949]

Two absolutely charming genttlemen

[@DarkHorseCrusader]

I think the name of this channel says it all: Truth unites. On the other hand, the evil one divides.

[@bigtimesully]

The best that each side have to offer

[@barrelagedfaith]

1) When it comes to penal substitution, I think most Catholics & Orthodox would be okay saying that Christ bore the curse for us (curse-bearer model), but we would be very careful to reject the popular models of R.C. Sproul, John Piper, and many other contemporary reformed authors who present a wrath-bearer model where the Father pours out His wrath upon the Son or he experiences our damnation in Hell. 2) I don't think Catholics would embrace Calvin or Luther's model of atonement as they are different from the fathers, Anselm and Aquinas. Dr. John Joy's book is able to make clear distinctions between Anslem and Aquinas and Calvin/Luther.

[@barrelagedfaith]

Propitiation means that Christ's death (and our baptizing into his death) appeased the Father's wrath meaning that the Father's wrath went away toward us and ***not that it was poured out on the Son. This is how St. Anthony the Great sees it.

[@benjaminledford6111]

Interesting that there is the aversion to using the word wrath. To me, I would see bearing the curse of God and bearing the wrath of God as describing the same thing. Perhaps there is a sense that talking about wrath would imply that the Father is angry at Jesus? If so, that's never how I have understood it. Evangelical/reformed teachers and pastors seem to make a point that we shouldn't pit the Father and the Son against each other in the Atonement, but that they both act willingly to accomplish the same end. I would also see Jesus' references to His passion as "the cup" that the Father is giving Him to drink as a pretty clear reference to the cup of God's wrath that is used in many places in the Old Testament as a metaphor for the judgment of God.

[@barrelagedfaith]

@@benjaminledford6111 I have no problem using the word wrath or that God is angry at us at all. Once we are changed at baptism and join the Mystical Body of Christ, his wrath subsides since were are now oriented towards him rather than against him. We are no longer a car driving on a one way street in a head on collision with God but , but have changed directions. So in Catholic dogmatics, the Son generally offers satisfaction to the Father and His wrath goes away. It is not literally poured out upon the Son. The Father does not actively 'damn' the Son like Sproul says. Now, if we say that Christ drinks the curse (death), no problem. If we are incorporated into His perfect act of sacrificial love to the Father, no problems there either.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I don't claim to fully know whether it's about penal substitution, or a propitiation for our sins, or whatever high brow distinctions are made. The bible can be seen to support any of these doctrines. What I know for sure, and what matters is a simple understanding that Christ made a sacrifice, a terrible and painful sacrifice on our behalf, so we can be reconciled to God. I think we all agree on that much. I'll leave further understanding of it to theologians to hash out. It can get like angels dancing on the head of a pin. People can get heated about, for no good reason. It does not affect our salvation, whether we have a perfect understanding of it or not. I suspect that whichever side thinks it's right, that when God explains it fully to us in glory, that we probably all missed it to some extent.

[@barrelagedfaith]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I think that's a fine way to do it. However, sometimes we have to go a bit deeper so we don't create issues in other areas of doctrine. For example, if someone said the Father turned His Face from the Son because the Father was all-holy and the Son became wretched and filled w/ sin in that moment, I think that has some problems. Wouldn't the Son also have to turn away since He is also God and all-holy? I am not saying the reformers said this, but I heard it a lot in my Baptist upbringing and even more in my reformed days under Sproul, Piper, etc. Its soaked in alot of popular preaching.

[@begelston]

Excellent dialogue. It is an amazing thing that Jesus took on the wrath of God toward sin. He became the object of wrath in our stead, on our behalf. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - Corinthians 2 5:21, also see Hebrews 10:11-14

[@joshuatrott193]

East seems to rely more on Jesus reconciling us to God in order to heal our souls. Jesus the healer n physician of souls

[@sotem3608]

Not sure if you'll read this Erick, but Hugh Owens from "the Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation" has a great amount of resources for the Catholic representation of the YEC side. There's also lots of scientists working for the Kolbe Center to bring expression to the YEC view from the Catholic side, they got really good content from as far as I can tell. Another less known resource would be Spike Psarris, he is a Protestant and used to work for the Nasa Military space program. He also got a big deal on YEC cosmology.

[@Anita-silver]

Can you do this with a voice from the EO church?

[@jax6815]

Id like to hear your take on the Book of Sirach. Since it was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls do you think everyone should get a Bible with it included?

[@LiamSGue]

Great video Gavin! I have a question, can we expect a video on Apologia Studios? I know they’re Reformed Baptist but in many of their videos they seem to deny that catholicity extends to non-Protestant traditions.

[@FalconOfStorms]

They don't, unless we're talking about high control groups like Mormonism and the Watchtower that are clearly outside the faith.

[@nethrelm]

A point on God's wrath: His wrath is not against people, but against sin. So when God's wrath is being poured out on Jesus, it isn't being directed at the person of Jesus, but at all of the sin He bore on our behalf. It's sort of like if you think of God's wrath like lightning and Jesus, by taking all of our sins upon Himself, becomes the ultimate lightning rod. Understanding that God's wrath is against sin and not people relieves any issues of disunity within the Trinity during the atonement since the Father's wrath is not directed at the Son, only at the sin the Son bore for us. That's my off the cuff thoughts on that.

[@ryanscott5019]

Great discussion. I’m interested in how you can say death is a punishment for sin if death pre-dated Adam? What am I missing?

[@TruthUnites]

thanks. HUMAN death is a punishment for sin: "on the day you eat of it you shall surely die." I don't think God meant biological cessation would initiate at that point. He says, "you."

[@tategarrett3042]

@@TruthUnites If you have the time, I'd be curious to hear more about your views on death before the fall and where/why you feel this view is supported in scripture?

[@ryanscott5019]

@@TruthUnites Hi Gavin, thanks for the response. I love the channel. My trouble with that is that it means Adam and Eve’s parents (& Cain’s wife?) died because of amoral biological processes but Adam’s death was because of sin. I presume you’d say Adams parents weren’t human even if they’re anatomically identical? Did they have the moral status of animals?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

​@@ryanscott5019Dr. William Lane Craig has a book on Adam and Eve that would answer you're questions!

[@ContendingEarnestly]

@@ryanscott5019 *My trouble with that is that it means Adam and Eve’s parents* Adam and Eve had parents?

[@ProfYaffle]

Come here for a break from hearing people supporting Hamas

[@alecfoster448]

On Penal Substitution: During the Passover, is the lamb sacrificed being punished? During the Day of Atonement, are either goats being punished? Why "must" there be a mechanism of Atonement?

[@user12jshf245]

Why did God instruct Aaron to lay his hands on the goat before sending it away? “And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself”

[@alecfoster448]

@@user12jshf245 The sins are layed on that goat that you reference, but that goat is very importantly not slain. It is sent into the wilderness to take the sins of the people back where they originated from (Azazel). It is notable that the goat that is slain, does not have any sins on it.

[@user12jshf245]

@@alecfoster448 but that avoids the question you asked. There is undoubtedly a transfer of guilt to that very goat. You are completely missing the symbolism during Yom Kipur and how Jesus perfectly embodies both the blood of the clean goat to cleanse us from sin and unclean goat as a guilty substitute for our sin.

[@user12jshf245]

@@alecfoster448 Hebrews teaches that these symbolic demonstrations were never intended to be ultimately efficacious, and thus singling out 1 of the 3 elements will never fully encapsulate the true fulfillment of the totality of Christ’s death. You must take all of them together and see how each element points to the greater work of final atonement by Jesus.

[@alecfoster448]

@@user12jshf245 you are projecting what you think that I think. Christ is both goats.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

Gavin, Erick spoke a bit on worship and are we worshiping the one true God. Question. Is the consecrated host god and is it worthy to be worshiped? If not, is it a false god?

[@caryyurk1388]

As a nearly 40 year resident of Hong Kong, China, we face certain secularistic and ideological challenges that are unlike what 1:15:25 the West faces.

[@JRey-re9rl]

Dr. Ortlund, if Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Church preach a false Gospel, how can they be brothers in Christ? Mariology and veneration of the saints is idolatry. So, how can we be united with them in Christ? You call them brothers and sisters in Christ? Doesn’t that mean you’re also promoting a false Gospel?

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

If penal substitution exists then answer me this, why does the son say to the father, forgive them father for they know not what they do,

[@user12jshf245]

I’m eternally grateful he did. This is a statement of his mercy towards sinners and his willingness to forgive sins both deliberate and out of ignorance. This does not remove the necessity of repentance, simply demonstrates the heart of God towards sinners.

[@251089soren]

On atonement: I guess many reformed protestants will see atonement as limited to the elect only. That would be a difference

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I think only the die hard predestination reformed. Gavin seems to be unique in that I'm pretty sure he once admitted to being a 5 point Calvinist in beliefs, yet I've never heard him make claims about limited atonement. Which I just can't see our savior dying for. The bible seems clear that he died and made a sacrifice for all, for whosoever will may come.

[@251089soren]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I guess that would be nice if he elaborated on that.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@251089soren Yes, it would be. I find Gavin, unlike James White, doesn't push the reformed doctrines, and never seems to talk about predestination. He was asked at some point about his Calvinism views and admitted he was 5 point. We were all shocked. I think he's talked briefly about predestination, but I got the impression it wasn't the diehard view. He seems to focus more on broad protestant views we all agree on, plus the Catholic views we strongly don't agree w/.

[@DarkHorseCrusader]

God, by His very nature, cannot change. Change implies potentially which a perfect being cannot have. This means that if God is Father, then He has always been Father - He is Father in His very nature. He did not become Father at some point which would imply potentiality. It follows then that if he has always been Father, He has fathered the Son from all eternity. Therefore, the Son is eternal. If the Son is eternal, then the Son is God.

[@Seethi_C]

As a Catholic, I hope Gavin gets Erick to come around on YEC lol

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

It's really neither here nor there. I am surprised that so many Christians are back to YEC. Which I think is sadly part of similar trends of flat earth. It does surprise me quite a bit, w/ all we know these days. Being a minority view w/ a conspiracy twist seems to be an alluring thing now. I got caught up in it in different ways.

[@Mkvine]

I thought Erick believes in YEC

[@JDsGameInn]

@@Mkvine he does, Gavin doesn't :)

[@manny4012]

YEC is absurd really. I’ve never heard any compelling argument for it.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@manny4012 I've tried listening to arguments for it. It's crazy to think the earth is a mere 6000 years old. There's just too much fossil evidence for dinosaurs, plus every other evidence about being able to date core samples. I don't believe in evolution either. When I admit this, people think I'm some sort of young earther, but there is middle ground. I believe there's a gap theory between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 and I leave the rest up to God.

[@okj9060]

I’m just wondering Gavin, you believe in real presence, do you claim to have real presence communion at your church?

[@TruthUnites]

actually just recorded a video on this, will release in a week or so! :)

[@okj9060]

@@TruthUnitesok thanks. I’m catholic so I was wondering how that would work 👍👍👍

[@soulosxpiotov7280]

That Jesus is fully God, died for our sins, yes, we have agreements. How to approach God is not the same, and what I mean by that, most Roman Catholics are going to the Lake of Fire because what they depend upon for their salvation is wrong.

[@madrick2831]

12:00 Satan has no more power! Jesus said it best….. All Authority has been giving to him!

[@drummerhq2263]

37:06 because evangelicals take God’s word for what it is, infallible. Where is Roman Catholics Sorry to say, may be do not?

[@Ehinoa]

they didnt even speak about more important areas, yes the agree- Cain and Abel worshipped tue same God but one did it His way and one did what was right in their own eyez

[@user12jshf245]

It appears the point of the video was to highlight the points of agreement. He said many times that they were going to deal with justification for instance.

[@HillbillyBlack]

6 BOYS? ……BLESSED. Thats a testosterone army. MEN of God.

[@unschoolinghomesteader7395]

I’m confused. Is he Protestant or Catholic?

[@joeoleary9010]

He's sort of a Cafeteria Catholic. He spends a lot of time in the cafeteria, and also some time lamenting that people don't fast anymore.

[@annb9029]

He’s Catholic

[@BlueGiantMedia]

I appreciate the discussion of the common ground. However, I disagree with the notion that we have the same gospel. Galatians makes clear that adding any work to the complete work of Jesus as terms for justification means you do not have grace and are indeed teaching another gospel. Ironically the entire Catholic Church is anathema by Paul’s teaching for professing this gospel different than what was taught by the apostles. If you require sacraments to secure the grace of God then you do not have grace and you do not have Christ.

[@WC3isBetterThanReforged]

Honest question, can you guide me to the passage in galatians you are referring to?

[@BlueGiantMedia]

@@WC3isBetterThanReforged honestly the entire book of Galatians is specifically written for the purpose of telling the Galatians they must not listen to the people telling them they need to do anything from the law of Moses to be saved. Most relevant to your question is Gal 5:4-6 that says if you try to be justified by the law (works of the flesh) you are severed from Christ and you have fallen away from grace. So you are not saved if you are trying to justify yourself through any works. Gal 1:8 says anyone who adds to this gospel of grace alone is anathema Gal 2:21 says that if righteousness comes by the law (works of man) then Christ died for nothing Gal 3:2-3 says you didn’t receive the Spirit by works, but by faith. It is foolishness to think that the work done by the Spirit must be completed by you in your works. Gal 3:10 says you who rely on works of the law are under a curse (you don’t rely on works, you rely on Christ) Gal 4:9-11 says that returning to works to secure salvation is turning back to being enslaved to weak and worthless principles and Paul fears that his efforts to preach to them have then been in vain. Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews are all exceedingly clear that salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ alone. It is the most essential doctrine in all of Christianity.

[@annb9029]

Yes they are talking about the Old Testament works NOT the New Testament works , we do not do these works on our own we do them because Jesus said to , Jesus himself requires Good works are required by God because he requires obedience to his commands (Mt 6:1-21, 1 Cor 3:8, 13-15) and promises to reward us with eternal life if we obey (Mt 25:34-40, Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10, Jas 1:12). But even our obedience is impossible without God’s grace; even our good works are God’s gift (Rom 5:5, Phil 2:13). This is the real biblical plan of salvation.

[@annb9029]

All were instituted by Jesus to give us his grace thru them , Baptism John 3:5 - “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Matthew 28:19 - “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Confirmation Luke 24:49 - “But stay you in the city of Jerusalem till you be endued with power from on high.” The Eucharist John 6:54 - “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.” Sacrament of Penance [Confession] Psalm 41:4 - “Heal, O Lord, my soul, for I have sinned against Thee.” John 20:22-23 - “And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.’” Anointing of the Sick [Extrem Unction] James 5:14-15 - “Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.” Matrimony Matthew 19:4-6 - “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Holy Orders Matthew 10:1 - Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. John 20:22-23 - “And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.’”

[@BlueGiantMedia]

@@annb9029 I could take the time to look exegetically through every one of those verses and show you that there are genuinely no sacraments. Nothing must be done to earn your salvation. In fact if you try to earn any of it, you must earn it all. Just one to start, Galatians does not pertain just to the law. It was clearly stated that if you are justified (completely and past tense) by the Spirit, it is foolishness to think you must add to it with the works in the flesh. No mention of law. Likewise, you will not be saved by elementary and earthly principles. Either you say that is the law (the highest form of morality known at the time) or you say it does not and therefore it means any other good work done in the flesh. Hermeneutic principles demand that you use the clear to interpret the unclear. The passages you reference are largely not even talking about the principles you are using them to support. As such they carry little weight in the matter (especially given their context) when placed against clear passages that were written with the express matters in mind. Read Hebrews 10 for instance. It makes clear that Christ’s sacrifice is once for all, and that we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. The work is finished. Romans 4 says But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners…So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭16‬ ‭ What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. Romans 9:30 So if you pursue salvation by your work, you don’t have it. As seen in Romans 10:3 Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. ‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬ ‭ For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone. ‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭32‬ ‭ So no matter what you are disobedient. The only way is to receive His mercy. You bring nothing. I Corinthians goes on as well. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭17‬ ‭ For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭2‬ ‭ so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭5‬ Your justification and sanctification are all finished in Jesus. You need preach nothing more than Christ and Christ crucified because that is salvation. Nothing else needed. All the rest flows out as a result, but has no claim to the cause of salvation. If you think you contribute then you are responsible for all of your salvation and are doomed.

[@Travis-tx7um]

"spiritual midget" 😂

[@catkat740]

Haha I wouldn’t consider him a midget in any sense of the word 😂

[@amparohonaker5973]

Gavin, just come home to the Catholic Church 😊

[@davidjanbaz7728]

U come home to the authentic Christian church of Hebrews 12:22-29.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

God didn't pour out His anger on Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ FREELY laid down His Life for ALL humanity to atone for our sins! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@kimjensen8207]

Thank you, brother Kind regards Kim

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

The Trinity does not exist you waffle on with all these words trying to express the Trinity as though it could be understood, God is not the father eternally that is, before creation, and neither does the son exist before creation, if the father exists then the mother must also exist, you cannot have one without the other, father exists because of the masculine, mother exists because of the feminine, it has to do with the nature of creation that is man and woman, because God is I am that I am, he is I am, neither father or mother, but due to creation he becomes the father he also becomes the mother, remove the flesh you remove father and mother you also remove the son, the son exists because of the masculine, Son of God exists because the light of God within this masculine, thus son of god, this is why there is a separation, the word father and the word son are separated, thus expressing two different things, as you and I are separated, but the spirit cannot separate itself from itself, therefore, it cannot be the third person of the trinity, because spirit does not separate itself from spirit it is the one spirit, the moment you give yourself a concept, you have to justify or support that concept, but if that concept is a lie then everything supporting it is also a lie, the truth is simple and it is written right in front of your faces but you fail to see it,

[@davidjanbaz7728]

LOL 😂

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

@@davidjanbaz7728 have you not read, those who laugh will mourn.

[@mariomene2051]

Boring

[@ContendingEarnestly]

Gavin, you do realize the rc position of atonement is that you can atone for your sin AFTER you've died right? CCC 1475 says that there are those 'expiating their sin in purgatory.' You know as well as i do that expiation is atonement. So you are atoning for YOUR SIN after you've died. That is the official catholic position. The same can be said for penance; ccc 1459. I honestly have no idea why so many 'christians' are going out of their way to be sympathetic to a false religion. Max Lucado is buddy buddy with Glen Beck a mormon. You seem to be sympathetic with the rcc. Yes there are disagreements but good grief if they don't have atonement right, or Jesus, or the gospel why are you even trying to find common ground? What fellowship does light have with darkness? You don't have to be unkind but at the same time you can't compromise the gospel. And if they don't have the correct gospel isn't it your place to share that with them? You have a platform here and from my seat you are placating them, not witnessing to them. Want to explain that?

[@Mach15-20]

Atonement here is not forgiveness. Atonement in those contexts just means paying off the justice of your sins. If a christian has stolen, raped, murdered or what have you and repents, you better believe that God will not let him off the hook just because he has received forgiveness by his repentance. He will still need to 'atone', bear temporal punishments for those sins, either in this life or the next.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

@@Mach15-20 *Atonement in those contexts just means paying off the justice of your sins.* That sounds remarkably like what Jesus did for us. He is our propitiation; Romans 3:25. *If a christian has stolen, raped, murdered or what have you and repents, you better believe that God will not let him off the hook just because he has received forgiveness by his repentance.* That is exactly what God will do. What kind of God do you have? 1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Wheres your verse? *He will still need to 'atone', bear temporal punishments for those sins, either in this life or the next.* Atonement has nothing to do with temporal punishment. And please provide the verse that says we still have temporal punishment we need to expunge after we die.

[@Mach15-20]

@@ContendingEarnestly Then you dont believe in the true God who is infinite Justice. You believe in a cosmic santa claus. The true God is Sovereign and punishes human beings everyday. If you want examples; David did an legendary repentance…YET his child was taken away from him and he was persecuted for years, all because of his sins, eventhough he was forgiven [of the eternal guilt]. Another example is Zachaeus who was a thief/extortioner, who when he repented said he will payback 4 times, andJesus was pleased with him. ”By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for” Proverbs 16:16 ”Store up almsgiving in your treasury, and it will rescue you from all affliction” (Sirach 29:12) ”As water quenches a flaming fire, so almsgiving atones for sins. ” Sirach 3:30 Give alms from your possessions... Do not turn your face away from any poor man, and the face of God will not be turned away from you. If you have many possessions, make your gift from them in proportion; if few, do not be afraid to give according to the little you have. So you will be laying up a good treasure for yourself against the day of necessity. For charity delivers from death and keeps you from entering the darkness; and for all who practice it charity is an excellent offering in the presence of the Most High. (Tobit 4:7-11)

[@rgrantconacher5300]

One thing for sure is 99.9% of both preach a false gospel.

[@lebleu8843]

Where would we be without you! I can't believe we were wrong all this time.

[@logicaredux5205]

@@lebleu8843 LOL!😂

[@WC3isBetterThanReforged]

Where might we find the real one? I prefer 1 cor 15 myself but if that's the wrong gospel, please correct me.

[@lebleu8843]

@@WC3isBetterThanReforged Only at Billy Bob's Baptist Bible Tabernacle can we find the truth

[@jordand5732]

@@WC3isBetterThanReforged yo! I play warcraft 3 too! Been playing for 2 decades. Glad to see another fan of both apologetics and warcraft 3.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

If penal substitution exists then answer me this, why does the son say to the father, forgive them father for they know not what they do,