Where Does Green Hydrogen Fit in The Energy Mix? | The Fully Charged Show Podcast with Yasmin Ali

[@kevinhodgson2085]

It seems like the oil and gas industry would very much want to develop a hydrogen infrastructure, and then state that green hydrogen is too expensive and quietly fill this infrastructure with other non-green forms of hydrogen generated from methane (as it is currently) and hope the public don't notice.

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

PRECISELY.

[@michaelrch]

You notice too!

[@nicholaskeenan898]

This is the current play book.

[@MichaelKing-bv4tv]

23 mins in - I thought that not knowing the electrolyser efficiency was pretty poor. Surely this is THE key thing for comparing the cost effectiveness of electrifying vs green hydrogen production. This is something that David Cebon addressed very well in an earlier podcast. Would have been interesting if you quoted him to her on green hydrogen being a bit of a smoke screen for other (blue/grey) forms of hydrogen. Having said that, it's at least good to see everyone on the same page with the most important first application of green hydrogen being to displace current hydrogen use for ammonia etc.

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

Actually this interview was conducted as if the interview of myself (Paul Martin) and of David Cebon, both members of the Hydrogen Science Coalition, never even happened- or didn't leave any impression on Robert as an interviewer.

[@michaelrch]

@@spitfireresearchinc.7972don't take it personally. He is polite, literally to a fault. The audience remembers, as you can see from the comments.

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

@@michaelrch we might have to accuse him of being Canadian!

[@MichaelKing-bv4tv]

@@spitfireresearchinc.7972 Hi Paul. Yes, forgive me, I remember listening to your podcast which I also thought was excellent! I appreciate Robert doesn't like to be confrontational to his guests, but when it's someone from the hydrogen industry (which this channel is generally (and rightly) sceptical of), there could have been a polite way of putting some of the facts that you and David discussed towards Yasmin for a more robust discussion. Anyway, some constructive feedback hopefully!

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

@@MichaelKing-bv4tv indeed most podcasters help to get to the truth of the matter by probing a guest's ideas, challenging them etc. I wish Robert would do that more. Being non confrontational is one thing, but it is quite another to acquiesce to the opinions of the guest without challenge.

[@nickcook2714]

I would suggest that if the hydrogen is being made from grid electricity then, at least until we have decarbonised all electricity generation, the hydrogen cannot be considered green, because if it is grid electricity then it could almost certainly have been used for some other use directly and more effectively. Saying that you are going to have power purchase agreements from renewable sources is green washing, that electricity could have been used to power a heat pump, an electric vehicle etc. and save far more carbon emissions than turning it into green hydrogen to displace grey, and the money saved on not building electrolysers could have been used to build more renewable generation, win-win. If we're really serious about reaching at zero we need to consider the energy system as a

[@Cyrribrae]

Yep exactly. If this hydrogen works presupposes a green world where nearly everything else is decarbonized... Great. Then let's not worry about it until we get that part done first.

[@3crowsfarm16]

"shipping wood chips from Canada is less carbon intensive than trucking them from Scotland" ignores the amount of trucking that happens in Canada. BC is BIG and the trees often come from FAR up a mountain before they make it to that efficient ship. Biomass energy can be useful and efficient when it is close to the forest as is the case with the Skookumchuk mill and co-gen operation whereas I have a hard time accepting the math to run a biomass power generation plant an ocean away.

[@richardwatkins6725]

Carbon Credits is what pays for it as in the UK its classed as Green energy. Biomass in the UK also grows food crops from the low grade heat and the high levels of Co2 in the greenhouses.

[@t1n4444]

​@@richardwatkins6725 Perhaps posters might now see the value of doing the fact checking thing as opposed to reaching erroneous conclusions. In short people don't really understand the financial manoeuvring involved.

[@nickcook2714]

It is also important to note that the atmosphere doesn't care whether CO2 emissions are from biogenic or fossil sources, just the difference between emissions and drawdown. Therefore, biomass for energy should only be produced from short (preferably annual) carbon-cycle crops, because long C-cycle crops, such as wood ,do not give any effective CO2 reductions for about 20 years or more. So as far as reducing atmospheric CO2 levels is concerned, the likes of Drax won't have any significant effect until probably about 2040 and beyond, which means it is of little use. The main thing the Drax is capturing is government funding.

[@michaelsmithers4900]

Agree, unless someone develops clean shipping that uses renewables

[@t1n4444]

@@nickcook2714 Ref Drax and now the possibility of Wylfa on Anglesey then it might be worth knowing HMG (of any colour) must engineer in a strategic method of generating electricity should a hostile third party amuse itself by destroying our offshore wind farms or the incomers from Europe and planned incomer from Morocco. We've seen that "a'" third party didn't have too much environmental concern or technical trouble destroying a certain gas pipeline only a year or so ago. Granted nuclear based electricity production conjures up the prospect of the dreaded nuclear waste issue but at least a government can claim they are "keeping the lights on" if the need arose. Yes it's lovely to think of the country going green but then we end up living in the "dark ages" a second time.

[@judebrown4103]

I've just got stuck on the production of ammonia for fertilizers... "because we have to have fertilizers to feed everyone". Yes we do because we abuse the soil, we cannot carry on doing that. There are crops which should be grown in rotation which naturally replenish the soil but that means we have a whole field not growing something for food this season. However that's the way we should manage the soil and it can be done, it's amazing actually it's been done since we stopped chasing animals for food. In fact if those animals are grazed on some of the fields in rotation fertilization happens naturally and we don't have to put up with the smell of slurry poured onto the fields that's been swept out of horrible indoor sheds where the poor things get reared. I don't believe that we must have fertilizers because there's "so many people to feed" anyway. We "must have fertilizers" because big producers don't want to reduce their profits by a tiny fraction while the soil replenishes itself naturally. I think it's perfectly possible to feed everyone using proper farming methods which don't kill the soil and which therefore have long term benefits. The thing that isn't possible is to provide vast amounts of "out of season" products to people who want everything "now"; what isn't possible is the over production of crops so that everyone can have the perfect shape potato. Along with all the other changes we have to make in the hopes of having a planet still fit to live on in ten years time, our faming methods will have to change because no matter how much fertilizer we keep putting on the soil we are rapidly running out of any that's remotely healthy! So there's a topic for discussion! Robert style rant over, I felt your brain fog and recognised it only too well! How shocking to realise that there are now mature, grown, wise people who cannot remember the smokey underground trains. Really brings you up sharp that when you haven't got kids to watch growing up! Excellent discussion, now to have a look for Yasmin's book.👍

[@simonwest9514]

I agree absolutely. There are plenty of nitrogen fixing plants (peas, soya beans etc) that in rotation make the soil perfect for plants which need extra nitrogen. Indeed, the "Three Sisters" way of planting (maize with a bean growing up it and a squash plant providing ground cover) makes all three plants produce more without the need for chemical fertiliser. Organic growing isn't easy to map from domestic to commercial, but it _is_ possible.

[@morosis82]

While in concept I agree, to have fallow fields and maintain growing capacity may require more land clearing, for example. I think food waste is a big part, we need to do better with making sure as much as possible of the food we grow makes it to someone's (or something's) plate in one form or another.

[@adrianupnorth]

After operating an electrolyser I've seen the huge amounts of fresh water required to make green hydrogen. Power needs to be stable and continuous, connecting to the grid highlights the main problem. Its too expensive to make, everyone wants it until they see the price. Increasing production or better efficiency won't make a difference. A handful of industries which use eye watering amounts of power might benefit it they own the process from start to finish.

[@mconnah1]

I’m disappointed about how you let her get away with incorrect statements that you know are incorrect, for example the comment about whether it is possible to run a heavy goods vehicle on batteries, when they are available, and more numerous and much cheaper to run than hydrogen vehicles. She seems a bit out of date about the issues with hydrogen.

[@vladx2]

This is all quite outdated. These points were debated 5 years ago, but the debate has been settled since and only echoes remain. I didn’t expect Robert to be so unprepared and host these echoes unchallenged.

[@harrygroundwater2590]

Yeah same

[@crm114.]

Totally agree - Robert’s far too nice in these interviews and doesn’t call out the BS.

[@rp9674]

Hydrogen is a waste of time and resources

[@girowinters]

She seemed to be mouthing fossil fuel lobbyists talking points

[@RWBHere]

Oil refinery electricity use: When I was a teenager, in the 1970's, a representative of ICI came to our grammar school to recruit people into their industry. He came from one of those refineries in the Immingham area. His favourite brag, intended to emphasise the size of the refinery, was about how much electricity the refinery was using. He pointed out that that one refinery used slightly more electricity than the City of Coventry, and smiled. I wasn't impressed, even back then. Then Flixborough happened about a year later. We heard the two loudest explosions from Cleethorpes, about 22 miles away from the disaster, as the crow flies. I saw the wreckage some weeks later. It was horrendous. Since then, we've had at least one other major refinery disaster in England. It's very doubtful that he would retain his job after making that kind of claim today.

[@simonwest9514]

An interesting interview, but I think it could have done with a little fact checking. Im not sure why Robert didn’t pick up on the opinions that battery trucking and industrial scale heat from electricity wouldn't work. Both have featured heavily on Everything Electric and Fully Charged. Both are totally feasible and there are businesses already producing and selling them.

[@AndrewLanecptplanet]

In one episode I saw not too long ago, Robert drove a huge Electric Lorry! Perhaps it was filmed after this one with Yasmin!

[@Cyrribrae]

Remains to be seen. Working prototype or even low volume production technology is cool but not the same as commercially viable. I'm quite positive on battery electric heavy transport, but Yasmin is not wrong to say that it's not CURRENTLY there. Even the video about the Mercedes truck explained that with a few more revisions and the trucking break regulations, the drawbacks might soon be mostly mitigated. Promising, but clearly not a fully complete solution yet. But neither is hydrogen. We don't know the state of technology in 10 years. EVs will be better generally, but there may be some applications where hydrogen is superior enough to use instead. Maybe. That said, hydrogen research must not curtail, much less preclude, investment into electrifying as much as possible. We don't need to worry about the hard to decarbonize industries until we stop falling at the supposedly "easy" ones. Anyway, I think the simplest and best reason he didn't forcefully push back (and he did hint at it in his responses) is just being a good host that lets guests make their points fully on the show. His position is well known, already. And it's something the comment section can address too. Eh. NBD.

[@t1n4444]

I despair. What are you droning on about? Making battery powered HGVs is quite different to selling battery HGVs and making a profit. And, as we all now know, battery buses can and do self ignite. Who in their right mind is going to chance their arm on a vehicle powered by batteries which could self ignite and possibly destroy the payload? Have you no idea how customers might react to this? Clearly not.

[@CheddarKungPao]

@@t1n4444stop spreading FUD. EVs are far less likely to ignite than petrol/diesel vehicles including hybrids. You know what else will be more likely to ignite than a BEV? A hydrogen powered vehicle. Because ICE hydrogen is obviously just as likely to ignite as normal ICE (higher than BEV) and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle has all the parts of a BEV plus the hydorgen tanks and fuel cell, so that is also more likely to ignite than a BEV. So you are just spreading anti-BEV FUD.

[@Pottery4Life]

@@t1n4444 Well go despair over in the corner please.

[@matthewbaynham6286]

I think this woman should watch more of the Fully Charged show, particularly the episodes with lorries which are fully battery electric. The current lorries that are on the roads might be just a little short of the range required for very long range HGV's, but with the rate of development in battery technology it'll just be a few years and then we will have HGV's that can do the very longest routes with the very heaviest loads. So she is definitely wrong about the need for hydrogen in lorry's, it'll just be battery electric. Hydrogen is a good solution for airplanes and boats.

[@auspiciouslywild]

It’s not that good for airplanes without some kind of significant innovation. The volumetric energy density of hydrogen isn’t very good. And airplanes are both weight and volume constrained. The other problem is that traditional planes are designed to store fuel in the wings so you can use all of the body for passengers and cargo. But that’s not feasible with hydrogen. So we need a radical new airplane design which may be possible but will take a very long time.

[@t1n4444]

🤣🤣🤣🤣 There again perhaps the guest lady knows a bit more about the "science of battery trucks" than yourself? We'll all know soon enough ... most likely when a battery powered tractor unit is installed in the Science Museum under the "failed inventions" exhibit. Along with deactivated (disarmed?) lithium EV batteries. You know it's inevitable ... so kindly wake up and smell the hydrogen. Perhaps you hadn't quite twigged Robert is now including more footage on discussing hydrogen? He certainly isn't unmannered enough to argue with his lady guest "on air". Perhaps I could refer you to the term, "Damascene Conversion"? Google is your friend.

[@matthewbaynham6286]

@@auspiciouslywild right that's why Airbus are currently investing billions of euros into hydrogen airplanes.

[@matthewbaynham6286]

@@t1n4444 every main lorry manufacturer is building electric lorries without hydrogen. So I think they are all right.

[@t1n4444]

@@matthewbaynham6286 They will discover they are wasting their time and resources.

[@bellshooter]

Battery HGV tractors and powered trailers are currently available, I'm surprised Yasmin wasn't aware of that. Powered trailers are also useful as they can be powered around depots without a tractor unit. Hydrogen is a fair storage method for excess electricity and could be used for extra heavy transport.

[@AndrewLanecptplanet]

Battery Semi Truck aka Lorries are rolling in the States aka the Lower 48, Pepsi Cola has many rolling in California!

[@t1n4444]

Quite so. However simply because they exist in no way implies battery HGVs are the epitome of efficiency. It might be argued that the weight of battery pack eats into the payload. We'll know soon enough if there's a massive migration to hydrogen powered trucks. That's the only problem with fact checking as in keeping up to date. We used to read a lot of stuff on hydrogen which turned out to be history. R&D moves so rapidly some posters find it difficult to keep up.

[@jonevansauthor]

@@AndrewLanecptplanet well, there's a lot of companies making them, and they're all over the world not just America. America probably needs more per capita due to obesity (think about how much extra food gets shifted to keep so many countries obese and America is high up that chart) and because they were insanely stupid and ripped up even more of their rail which is how you *should* do the bulk of your container shipping on land. Obviously what they should actually do is rebuild the rail lines between the ports and other major hubs, and only use lorries to distribute locally. Even Tesla ships cars by rail :D

[@AndrewLanecptplanet]

Yes Sir, I agree utterly and completely! Since seeing Josh Tickell’s 2014 film “Pump” I learned how America destroyed much of her rails in order to build highways! So very sad! Yes Sir, I think rail should move almost everything from state to state or across multiple states then Lorries do the final 1-50 mile drive to the final destination or next to final destination, which is basically what Pepsi is doing with their Semi’s in California! Day runs delivering frito lay chips and I’m sure Pepsi itself! Yes I’ve moved to a mostly plant based diet and fresh and frozen plants at that! The key to human health! If we were meant to eat meat we would have sharp teeth like Sharks, Alligators, Bears, Tigers, Lions, Wolves…..

[@michaelsmithers4900]

I also wonder what size battery a hydrogen Semi will need between the fuel cell and the drive train. Remember Fuel cell vehicles are electric vehicles too.

[@OverlordActual]

It is also worth noting some datacenters running the internet use an obscene amount of water for cooling as well. Also, they prefer not to disclose the amounts for that either...and in some instances I remember reading or hearing are not very popular with the local population.

[@kevinhodgson2085]

I know of at least one location where the building of new data centres was outright banned. Because green energy projects were constructed, all that green energy was immediately consumed by new build data centres and the region was back to square one and requiring more new wind farms. They would have continued in this direction indefinitely if they hadn't have banned data centres, because these were massive multinationals just looking for the worldwide cheapest electricity and cold climate.

[@michaelrch]

20:35 err wrong. There are new processes (granted yet to be commercialised) for producing cement that are carbon negative. And it was discussed on this channel within the last month from memory.

[@Yanquetino]

Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong, but methinks even "green" hydrogen (extracted with clean, renewable energy) is still too energy wasteful for use in cars. For example, a Hyundai Nexo FCV has a range of 354 miles from a full tank of 6.21 kg of H2. You'd need 342 kWh of electricity to extract and compress that much H2. Yet a Hyundai Ioniq 5 could drive 1,025 miles on that amount of electricity, i.e., nearly 3 times farther! I say: waste not, want not.

[@nickcook2714]

@Yanquetino Absolutely right. Furthermore you don't have to waste loads of money and resources on electrolysers and other hydrogen infrastructure. The green/hooray hydrogen Brigade show a distinct lack of systems level thinking. If you're in a situation where range and refuelling times really are show stoppers for you, then I suggest just you carry on using FF ICE until battery technology catches up with your requirements which I'm sure it will do, probably within a decade.

[@michaelsmithers4900]

You’d be correct. Too n many inefficiencies with H for cars. There are use cases for H in manufacturing where it can be produced and used in the same place reducing some inefficiencies assoc. with transport. The problem is it’s being used as a red herring of sorts to get attention away from BEVs. The reality is it’s very inefficient and mostly produced from Fossil fuel.

[@rp9674]

I wonder if it's an intentional distraction, a red herring

[@michaelsmithers4900]

@@rp9674 I think fossil fuel and to some extent incumbent auto want to put enough funding into it to distract people.

[@nettlesoup]

This isn't even "green" hydrogen. The idea that green power purchase agreements let you run electrolysers 24/7 to make green hydrogen is cloud cuckoo land. That's like saying because I buy my electricity from a green energy provider my EV consumes zero carbon. I don't believe that; why does she?

[@Cyrribrae]

Interesting. I do have to agree with the comment that there wasn't enough discussion on green hydrogen in this interview. Not for lack of trying on Robert's end. I don't think Yasmin is as far off the mark as some in the comments think. There are indeed industries where electrifying has proven to be challenging. Doesn't mean they won't work, but there may be a reason to look for alternatives. However.... This didn't really sell me on hydrogen either. We didn't get into specifics of the transport. Tell me about hydrogen pipelines! Can we really use natural gas pipelines as politicians say? Or is it actually a much more complicated and expensive process, as I think? Should have discussed those rules and regulations that the government has put on green hydrogen - or at least talked about what sort of support the project she's working on is getting. I feel like some of the pushback in the comments is a bit of a product of having not enough detail to dive into, so the discussion by necessity falls back to the general "hydrogen pointless" vs "hydrogen good" dichotomy. My worthless two cents. Though I have cluttered up this comment section with too many words everywhere already. So. I'll stop lol. Sorry..

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

☆ Selfplug-in V2G EVs parked 23hrs daily and driving building to building daily will only need trickle charge std wall power point. Rapid charging will be on the main roads and at corner stores, etc.

[@eclecticcyclist]

Don't worry about your beloved cheese, there's a lot of land in the UK which is not suitable for arable agriculture due to it being too steep for machinery,too wet or too thin soil so it's idel for grazing animals which turns organicaly grown grass into nutient dense meat without using artificial fertilisers made from oil or pesticides and herbicides which are devastating biodiversity but are all but mandatory for growing most vegetables.

[@AtheistEve]

Much, if not most, of the non arable land would be ideal for rewilding.

[@malcolm8564]

If we stop eating beef and sheep then we can grow timber which is currently all imported. Also we can stop shooting birds for fun and restore peat bogs which are a massive carbon sink.

[@t1n4444]

​@@AtheistEve Quite so. However not all rewilding projects are greeted with equal enthusiasm by all parties concerned. Country Watch tells us that the introduction of beavers, as an example, is splendid for controlling the flow of waters into urban areas downstream and limits flooding. However the water not flowing downstream has to go somewhere and we learn that farmers get quite cross because this water ends up flooding their fields. Who could blame them? Having beavers around is all very well for the tree huggers (there's irony for you) but the damage they cause isn't limited to gnawing off a few hundred trees. Perhaps whoever thought of reintroducing beavers might have been a bit more concerned with the impact issues further "downstream". Ditto battery EVs ... who knew that self igniting batteries would cause fire damage and emit poisonous gases free for all to inhale? In time we'll learn all about how the medical authorities discreetly monitored the health of the population local to those bus fires. For those of a sceptical nature there's nothing to stop you from researching how the medical authorities monitored the amount of lead in the blood of children living adjacent to Westway in west London. (When lead was added to petrol in order to stop engine "knock".) (Westway sort of became the end/start of the M4.) And, whilst on the topic of medical authorities, then you should know examples of human faeces are collected daily and frozen for future studies when there's an outbreak of disease for ease of tracing the source/index event. in fact it may be that medical observatories worldwide may be following the effects of battery fires toxic emissions, everywhere. This sort of research is completely and utterly beyond the comprehension of lithium battery huggers. If lead poisoning was monitored decades ago then you can be sure many other chemical compounds, including lithium, are being monitored even as we type. Google is your friend on this. It would be ironic if the toxic emissions from lithium battery fires added to the green house gases and was toxic to humans. So much for cleaning up the atmosphere.

[@AtheistEve]

@@t1n4444 Maybe, when we’ve rewilded enough land, you’ll have more space for that herd of conspiracy hobby horses you’re looking after.

[@t1n4444]

@@AtheistEve 😂😂😂😂 Trust you not to "get it"! I've no real interest in reintroducing anything in the fauna line and would certainly draw the line at wolves and aurochs. Some mad people are even contemplating a Jurassic Park thing with elephants and mammoth DNA. Why? Returning to yourself, it begs the question of if you ever attended school. Judging by your comments you're either a six year old or a backward seven year old. So which is it? All replies treated in confidence. More or less.

[@RichardFraser-y9t]

Using hydrogen for power makes as much sense as walking on your hands. It works but it doesnt get you anywhere.

[@AsphaltAntelope]

But using it for storage or for industrial needs is actually a great idea!

[@CheddarKungPao]

@@AsphaltAntelopebattery storage makes a lot more sense. Hydrogen is inherently leaky and fuel cells use more rare minerals than batteries. And hydrogen combustion has all the problems of combustion pollution.

[@nickcook2714]

Although there are possibly a few niche applications, rather like walking on your hands it's probably a good idea if you don't have any legs

[@nickcook2714]

@AsphaltAntelope Most current industrial uses of hydrogen don't store very much they make it as they need it. If you're thinking of it as a clean energy source to replace natural gas then most applications could be electrified, and would be significantly cheaper to run if the hydrogen is being made from the electricity in the first instance.

[@rp9674]

It's a great idea to completely abandon hydrogen, stop wasting time & resources on that distraction. As an overflow storage It's a silly Rube Goldberg device.

[@jeffreyherba8435]

Hi IPleeeeesssee Robert shut up every so often and let the guest tell us interesting stuff. I got so annoyed I didn't finish listening to this episode

[@arleneallen8809]

I appreciate the kind of optimism that keeps us moving along in the decarbonization endeavor. I've watched a few examples of what are referred to as "doomer" videos recently. It's not say anyone's perspective on climate is right or wrong, but I would much rather attempt to work on the problem rather than engage in silent meditation of a theoretically bleak future.

[@rp9674]

Hydrogen doesn't make sense, well explained by Michael Bernard (electrify everything)

[@michaelwinkley2302]

Green hydrogen only makes sense if produced from excess green electricity generation, and then only if used to create ammonia for fertilisers. All other uses make very little sense.

[@ferkeap]

Micheal Bernard is a tool on many more topics, a real opinion writer type.

[@RandomGuy-nm6bm]

And green steel ​@@michaelwinkley2302

[@rp9674]

Even Michael Bernard's predictions & speculation are gold

[@Stephen-Jones]

Quite an interesting discussion, I only wished this had come out before Harrogate & known what day Yasmin was there as i can imagine it was quite an interesting panel session.

[@urbanstrencan]

Hydrogen is great solution for big transport and transfer like trains, ships, .... Keep up with great work bringing us new inventions from green technology 😊❤❤❤

[@charleswillcock3235]

If only electricity could be used for powering trains, I guess hydrogen could be the answer, to make them cleaner.

[@Orange_Manbaby]

Hydrogen trains. Really 😅

[@charleswillcock3235]

@@Orange_Manbaby The irony the London underground, the first electric train was introduced in 1890, 134 years ago!

[@michaelrch]

23:25 aargh. I'm out. If you don't even know the comparative round-trip efficiencies of hydrogen vs batteries etc then you aren't qualified to discuss this

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

She discredits herself by claiming that hydrogen made from electricity would provide a better source of heat to boilers than electricity itself. That is just pure unadulterated nonsense. The number of industrial applications that need actual fire rather than heat is quite small, and almost all industrial heating applications can be served directly by electric heat for far, far less cost than trying to make hydrogen from electricity to supply that same heat.

[@rp9674]

See the research of Rube Goldberg

[@judebrown4103]

Did she say that though? I thought she just said electric boilers were expensive to run, referring to a domestic setting. Please understand my brain fog is worse than Robert's so happy to be corrected. No time yet to look back on the part where she referenced electric boilers. I don't think Bobby's interviewing technique (?!) really allowed her to get into her stride to be fair. Bless him I think he needs to sort out how he does these chats. It's lovely hearing his waffles and stories but he really should ask a question wait for the answer, then if that answer doesn't expand as he wanted then ask more leading questions so that the person is encouraged to expand. Poor Robert seems to panic at those times and just attempts to fill the air!

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

@@judebrown4103 I replied to this but don't know where it went. Yes, if she implied that making hydrogen from electricity to heat a home was cheaper than heating a home with the same electricity, then she was really beating a dead horse. Not only is electric resistance heating cheaper than it will ever be to burn electrolytic hydrogen made from the same electricity, but you could also use that electricity to run a heat pump with a coefficient of performance of 3, i.e. pumping 3 joules of heat for every joule of electricity fed. Hydrogen not only wastes energy, it also requires expensive equipment that users of that hydrogen must pay for. The end result is that hydrogen is both a terrible battery and a very uneconomical way to produce heat.

[@mattipeltola4934]

Dialing in to listen a month after the episode came out, but oh boy, was this worth listening to! Such great insights. Could I get myself to read the book 🤔 Thanks for the content! ❤

[@Jaw0lf]

A great chat and it was a pleasure being at Everrything Electric North and seeing Yasmin talk and give her views.

[@MrAdopado]

For an energy specialist not to immediately be able to quote the average efficiency percentages for ICE is somewhat concerning.

[@zapfanzapfan]

Very interesting guest. Making the hydrogen produces quite a bit of waste heat but if you have a use for that heat locally, like a district heating system, then the total efficiency gets close to 100% so I hope the electrolyzer plant is placed somewhere where the waste heat can be used.

[@nickcook2714]

All plants produce biomass but some biomass is more bio than others. 》 We currently produce a lot of biofuel for adding to diesel and petrol for land transport which should be used for aviation, or possibly shipping, instead, because we have other clean options for land transport EVs especially. 》 Note: the atmosphere doesn't care whether CO2 emissions are from biogenic or fossil sources, just the difference between emissions and drawdown. Therefore, biomass for energy should only be produced from short (preferably annual) carbon-cycle crops. Long C-cycle crops, such as wood ,do not give any effective CO2 reductions for about 20 years or more. 》 Miscanthus giganteus: > Can be grown on poor quality land so doesn't need to displace arable crops, but could be grown on rough pasture. > Can produce approximately 14t dry matter/ha/yr That's equivalent to about 23t CO2/ha/yr captured. Similar quantity also captured by roots/rhizomes and stored in ground, giving a total potential capture of about 46t CO2/ha/yr. > Farm Gate price of M. gianteus £50/t approx > Therefore, cost of CO2 capture: = 14t x £50/46t(CO2) ≈ £15.30/t !!!!! > DACC predicted (guessed for the purposes of maintaining the illusion that it could be cost effective in order to continue to receive funding) to be $100-$150/t CO2 (≈£100/t) in 2050!!! Current cost ≈ £1,000/t CO2 ! > M. gianteus ~45% C, Jet-A1 ~86.24% C & 13.76% H2 .'. 1t M.g about 0.52t hybrid/biosynthetic Jet-A1 Carbon cost (excluding transport & pre-processing) ≈£100/t Jet-A1 currently > £600/t !

[@ralpharmsby8040]

Some of the wood from Canada is from old forests and not plantations created for harvesting - not great!

[@oakfieldfarm4131]

For gods sake Robert, let your guests speak! She may have been really interesting but unfortunately, we’ll never know. Plan your questions beforehand, ask one and then shut up and let your guest speak until they have nothing more to say on the topic, then and only then ask your next on-topic question. Take a leaf out of Lex Fridman’s book - that’s how to interview someone :) x

[@rp9674]

No

[@judebrown4103]

Bless him, I just decided it was a great advert for Yasmin Ali's book! 😅

[@alistairedw]

Terrible interviewing style. Too much focus on Robert’s personal anecdotes/history and not enough time space for the interviewee to impart facts & opinions.

[@robertduncan5912]

?? ​@@rp9674

[@robertduncan5912]

Yep! Not the first time I've commented on Robert's intrusive interviewing style. Love you to bits for what you do here, Robert, but ... let your guests speak more (guided by you with questions or simple responses to their answers) ... please?

[@carkawalakhatulistiwa]

Hidrogen for cargo ship. And Aircraft

[@chrisb508]

Fascinating guest. I like how she is so pragmatic. Energy production is not black and white or green and blue for that matter. It's a complicated subject that the world will eventually have to take a more realistic look at.

[@johnbridger5629]

Why does everything have to be so extreme? I remember a Greenpeace (I think) quote something like getting 80% of all people to recycle 50% was far better than 20% recycling 100%. Surely aiming for a 50% reduction in meat consumption would be a far less contentious aim? Similarly the goals for removing ICE cars and gas boilers. Aim for these targets within the lifetime of most humans alive today and the push back would be so much less then the next generation could set similarly challenging targets that might be unthinkable now.

[@Cyrribrae]

Yea. You're probably right. Though, I do think there are many times when pushing through the big ambitious plan through the initial resistance allows people to get used to the change, such that even with the pushback, you end up further than if you had tried to do 5% 10 separate times, pushing through resistance each time.

[@jonevansauthor]

Because evangelist vegetarians and vegans don't care about reducing the number of animals eaten. They want to stop it entirely, as they labour under the mistaken belief that it's immoral and tantamount to normal humans being a murderer. They can't even conceive of the fact that if they helped people go from obese to healthy weights, we would be eating far, far, fewer animals full stop. There's no acceptable level of being a human being to them, we must simply cease to be human entirely. The difference with cars is that ICE fans don't have a valid reason to use them day to day because they are inherently inferior. Whereas vegan cheese... not so much and not-bacon definitely not. But no-one is calling for an immediate 100% ban anyway, that's just FUD. The ban is on new car sales that's it. Most of us would be long dead before you couldn't easily get an ICE car.

[@CheddarKungPao]

We have been taking the half measure or quarter measure approach since the 1980s. We are now in a climate emergency. Look at the news. The deadly impacts of climate change are already well under way. We can no longer afford to keep coddling the people who don't give a s--- about the rest of humanity. We need to move the planet to renewable power (including all forms of transport) right now. Hydrogen is another half measure meant to provide cover for the polluters who prioritize profits over the planet.

[@rp9674]

It's 100% too late for hand-holding, begging, hoping

[@davidbittner4674]

A few thoughts, and I plead total ignorance here, so be gentle with me... 1) We manufacture Hydrogen from water. Can't use sea water. Where does the water come from? Rivers and lakes. So does that mean fuel rationing during a drought? 2) We then transport the hydrogen to places where it can be used in vehicles. 3) The 'only' tailpipe emission is water. Great. 4) So, we have traffic jams full of vehicles dripping water onto the road - perpetually wet roads? 5) The water is absorbed into, under, next to the road. Great for plants. Some evaporates into the air and magically finds it's way back to the river/lake it came from and not into the ocean where it can't be re-used to make more hydrogen? 6) Humidity in heavily trafficked areas is higher due to the evaporating water. 7) In colder climates the water hits the ground and pretty much stays there. While I understand that there is research into extracting Hydrogen from Sea Water, right now, not a thing. A few cars running on hydrogen, yeah, great. Pretty much all of them dumping water onto the roads after the hydrogen has been extracted from water from somewhere else... I'm seeing problems.

[@michaelwinkley2302]

For a 55m podcast about green hydrogen, there was very little discussion about green hydrogen. Green hydrogen is a non-starter. The only people talking about it ate people that work in the fossil fuel sector, like this lady who works for RWE. Before it can become viable we need to be not at all reliant on foosil fuel electricity generation. Even then, our electricity grid needs significant improvements, and we need to have fully transitioned to electric space heating (heat pumps) and EVs. We're nowhere near enough to reaching any of those goals, so talk of green hydrogen is pretty much pointless at this stage. That talk about creating synthetic fossil fuels from green hydrogen and carbon that was carbon-captured ignores the fact that when burnt that synthetic fuel still releases carbon dioxide. We'd be creating green hydrogen for the sole purpose of doing the doing the one thing that renewable energy generation was designed to replace.

[@Cyrribrae]

Yea. I'm more sympathetic to the idea that physics might suggest a solution more akin to hydrogen than batteries for some applications. And all that depends on whether battery chemistry hits a Renaissance and transforms at some point. But the green hydrogen argument makes little sense and as you say the synthetic fuels idea makes even less. Both depend on environmental measures to be in place and successful at scale before they come into play at all. It's introducing another technology for the pure sake of keeping fossil fuel-era equipment in a world where better electric options not only exist but are the standard. It makes little sense - EXCEPT as a way for people to skirt certain regulations on technicalities.

[@t1n4444]

You know and understand very little of what you drone on about. More research for you my lad before you even dream of replying. You could even buy the book Robert waved in our direction. Perhaps you'll see the error of your thinking? Suggest you flog your fossil fuel holdings as quietly and quickly as you can before you end up penniless.

[@salibaba]

@@t1n4444ah so you’re on here too belittling people for seeing sense. Funny, there’s a heck of a lot more installed infrastructure supporting battery tech than Hydrogen. But hydrogen is still the best thing since sliced bread. Get real. Who’s paying for your Hydrogen drumbeat?

[@t1n4444]

@@salibaba ??? I can presume only that English is not your first language. And we'll leave it there.

[@Cyrribrae]

@@t1n4444 you are terrible at this. They're paying you too much 😢

[@charleswillcock3235]

I have not listened to this podcast. When I see hydrogen in the title I look to see what the comments are. Robert drove an electric artic truck a few days ago which was battery powered. The latest London buses with a 400 mile range are totally electric and should demonstrate that electric is the future for buses and other large vehicles. Even if Elon's electric Semis are only 80% as good as he says, that would give those a 400 mile range. It is said they can achieve 500 miles and in the UK, you would be doing well to drive more than 450 miles in one day. Therefore, electric vehicles are going to win through and hydrogen will just be a total waste of money and a total distraction in the vehicles industry. Maybe there will be some exceptional cases but 99+% of vehicles will one day be electric. Robert should know this unless his memory has been destroyed.

[@WilliamLeigh-cl9bq]

Oh dear Robert you said that Labour are going to ban meat. You do realise that it will be front page news in the Daily Mail tomorrow.

[@paulwoods1950]

The most salient points missed. Transport of hydrogen, cost of compressing the lightest gas in the universe. Cost of containment, fugitive emissions cost per Kwh from production to use verses any other fuel source. An hour of fluff lacking real information. Sorry missed opertunity.

[@RWBHere]

Thanks to both of you for this very interesting and educational conversation. 🙂👍

[@RAHellemans]

There is so much wring with hydrogen and non came out. For those who missed their secondary school physics lesson to make 1KG of Hydrogen you need 10 litres of clean water, this means that for the 100MW plant she referred to they need 1000m3 of water!. That how EU burocrates pay for the hydrogen pipeline Barcelona-Marseille when there are drought conditions in Barcelona. Next the hydrogen bus experience in france Pau and Rouen working from 2017 and pulling out despite heavy hydrogen subsidies, reason maintenance of the storage unit is non sustainable. H2 is a carbon industry stay alive scam.

[@MrGMawson2438]

Morning Robert and Yasmin

[@judebrown4103]

Ah Robert....cheese....have to tell you my digestion has never felt better since i gave up dairy. Had to do it to get better from an awful food poisoning episode which went on for a month until a young doc said stop drinking Complan, its got dairy in it and your body can't tolerate it after being stripped out by those horrid bugs. Got better within twenty four hours and continued to avoid it. I've lost a couple of stone, gone from XXL to M clothes. Everything dairy can be replaced by perfectly palatable, in fact delicious alternatives. There are even specialust vegan cheese makers which just about quench that craving. I'd be interested to do a blind tasting actually, reckon it would be hard to tell for some of them. In the interests of honesty i had begun to think about not having a glass of wine with dinner every day and after a month without i didn't resume that either so might have had some impact. This was four and a half years ago btw and I'm still slim, its amazing. 👍

[@markumbers5362]

I like Robert but got 38 minutes in and was so frustrated with the load of waffle that Robert went on with instead of just to asking simple questions. This interview could have been 10 minutes long. What about writing the questions down and just asking them. If this was an assignment handed in at university it would have got 2 out of 10 because it was so bloody long winded.

[@ferkeap]

Hydrogen in large transport and industry is where it useful. Investigate the topic of steam electrolysis. Useful for large scale and high efficiency production of hydrogen.

[@salibaba]

Another bot like response spamming the comments. What the heck is steam electrolysis? Lemmie guess “Do some research” HTE still requires you to use a primary energy other than electricity to make it work. We don’t have spare nuclear capacity to bother wasting unless it’s built with a nuclear reactor; making it even more complex and expensive. Not operational.

[@flemlion13]

Round 40 minutes they're speculating about among others an FCC (fluid catalytic cracker) I think

[@MrCoophi]

Glad to see EE trying to include H2 industry, and Robert keeping the rants out of the conversation. However, I feel there were some points left uncountered. I wonder how this would've gone with Imogen?

[@RWBHere]

'Green' Hydrogen, produced by electrolysis, is a process which can never be more than about 66% efficient. Using it in a fuel cell is also no better than 66% efficient. So, ignoring the preceding electricity generation losses, at best, the efficiency of those two steps alone is (0.66 x 0.66) = 43.56%. On top of that, you have to factor in the energy required to liquefy it, compress it, transport it from factory to point of sale, maintain the cryogenic conditions needed for its storage and account for leakage. And Hydrogen has such small molecules that it leaks through almost any container walls, pipes and valves. Once it's in a vehicle (for example) and has been used in the fuel cell, the electricity is stored in a battery and then discharged from the battery. Those processes might be 90% efficient, giving water to useable electric power efficiency of (0.4356 x 0.9) = 39%, ignoring the cooling, transport, pressurisation and leakage losses. After that, you have to think about losses between electricity and motion in the vehicle. The net result is that overall efficiency, from electricity to H₂ to electricity to work done, is around 25% efficiency, if all goes well. This is almost no better than the inefficiency of burning Diesel fuel in a CI engine and moving the vehicle, under otherwise ideal conditions. So, yes, there is a need for some form of combustible fuel, for the present, especially if it is essential to fly from place to place, or to fly rockets carrying satellites into LEO. But in many cases it's far more efficient to generate electricity, transport it by wire to a vehicle, store it in a battery and then move the vehicle. The overall efficiency is still not stellar, being up to about 75%. But that gives three times the amount of useful work done for the energy input, compared to using 'Green' Hydrogen. Now, how 'green' is it in reality? Honest answers are appreciated greatly.

[@inlinesix1187]

Apparently most didn’t listen to the full episode. Numerous times they both said if it can be electrified it should be and green hydrogen would be used in short term until it could be electrified.

[@juliancouch5891]

Electrolysis of water produces one kg Hydrogen and eight kegs of Oxygen. Who values the Oxygen?

[@Jeddin]

Electrolysis means Electro = electricity and lysis = break. i.e. using electricity to break a hydrogen molecule. Yes, you could do that or you could simply store the electricity in a battery and use it directly, which is much simpler and cheaper.

[@rp9674]

​@@Jeddinbingo & yahtzee

[@ArmandBarbe]

I’m in Texas. If i don't keep the AC and therefore the engine running while waiting in the car I die. But got the point.

[@michaelsmithers4900]

You can roll down the windows. I lived in San Antonio. Roll down the window and you essentially have outdoor temp with shade. Throw a sunshade in the front window if you’re going to be stopped for more time.

[@rp9674]

Gotta live

[@johnstubbe3113]

Appoint that needs to be made about hydrogen, that the entire green world has been running on hydrogen cycle ie water splitting for billions of years the oil companies also are working with a hydrogen cycle, splitting hydrogen off of carbon and then putting them back together again in hydrocracking and hydroforming to give us new hydrocarbons whatever we want. With a hydrogen system, we can achieve long-term seasonal storage at a better cost effectiveness than batteries. Short term is still Battery territory. By electrolyzing urea, we can save vast amounts of electricity and urea is the worlds largest waste product . Urea uses 1/3 the voltage that normal water electoral is ation uses so it’s 300% less electricity to make the same amount of hydrogen. According to Robert Murray Smith on his KZbin podcasts.

[@jaybird2023]

Why is Fully Charged still giving oxygen to the poison pill distraction that is hydrogen? This debate has already been settled for a long time. We need to stop wasting our time on non-solutions and focus on what works. Please do better Fully Charged! I know you can. I hope this is not the start of a hydrogen redemption tour on your part.

[@MrGMawson2438]

Green Hydrogen isn't the future

[@Pottery4Life]

The next 50 years of wind, solar, and battery build outs will provide the excess renewables required to power Green Hydrogen. This will be (IMO) a trailing, secondary technology.

[@hoffinger]

It might be white hydrogen. That gives the oil companies something to do. It is a renewable resource.

[@rp9674]

Even rainbow hydrogen would be a waste

[@dandantheideasman]

Would love to engage with Yasmin over the potential of converting Methane/LNG into Hydrogen with Carbon as a byproduct for the use in graphite manufacturing etc. I call this Yellow Hydrogen - as it is for the thinkers 🧐🤔 It involves 0 - Z E R O - emissions as it can be done through electroplating and one third of the Hydrogen produced can be used to generate the energy to produce more. ♻️ The real (black), gold in this process is the Carbon, as it is very expensive on the open market. 🤑 P.S. Steam reforming is totally bonkers! 😤🤯

[@jamesdubben3687]

Find a data center that is reusing and/or selling by-product heat.

[@alistairedw]

Some bitcoin mining data centres pipe the heat generated into greenhouses.

[@RandallSlick]

Well I for one welcome a hydrogen-fuelled flight on a budget airline one day. This was a fascinating conversation but I'm afraid that this seems like some sort of RWE greenwashing, as charming as the lady seems and doubtless well-researched and written her book is. For some strange reason, I somehow find it difficult to believe that a powergen co that still relies on strip-mined lignite for to a considerable extent might be trendsetters in green energy. Good luck to Ms Ali, and I hope she can find a better employer soon.

[@emilenossin5098]

80%+ of forest destruction (carbon sinks) is to grow food to feed livestock, not humans directly. There is far more cattle than wild animals and humans combined (in kg), so something to consider in the fertilizer argument as well.

[@ren2704]

It would be interesting to make a show about white hydrogen as well.

[@MrAdopado]

Ludicrous to suggest that bringing virgin forest biomass from Canada could be a good idea as against trucking it from Scotland! How does she think the stuff in Canada gets to the dock side in Canada? Scottish biomass is all from specifically cultivated trees that are currently ready for cropping and replacement ... thus completing the carbon cycle (I see it all happening from my sitting room window). Yes, it's a long term carbon balancing act when we really need quicker solutions but if we are going to use biomass at all let's keep it home grown.

[@richardwatkins6725]

Green Hydrogen once the UK and Europe gets its Salt Mine storage infrastructure built it will speed the transition from Natural Gas. The UK really needs to push install solar and local battery install everywhere and like Germany drive energy prices negative. Low cost energy allows low cost Hydrogen production that can then be used for heavy industry and as Yasmin points out Ammonium. Keeping UK industry competitive is important to keep production local and benefit from not having to ship things from around the world.

[@robindumpleton3742]

Grid scale batteries are still a long way off along with Nuclear Fusion. Ammonia is toxic and every step in the process as Yasmine says uses energy. For Robert 2006-2010, Saab bio and E85 is far more popular in France and never took off in UK. Fertilliser captures all it's CO2, which then goes for carbonated drinks, food preservation and welding gases.

[@jonevansauthor]

@@robindumpleton3742 ummm... there are grid scale batteries all over the UK and you've missed that every home battery is also a grid scale battery and it won't be long before every new battery bus, car, and truck is also a grid scale battery. Nuclear fusion other than the sun, doesn't exist even in the lab as an ongoing reaction and we have no way of predicting when we'll have the first successful reactor - but it's always 10 years away.

[@MrGMawson2438]

Cheers Robert and Yasmin

[@EvEvangelist]

It’s a repeating theme, intelligent academics don’t seem to be in touch with what’s happening NOW in the real world (Tesla Semi) . IMO Hydrogen for transport will only work Depot to Depot where refueling justifies the investment - to imagine common connectivity and access for Passenger vehicles is ambitious , to say the least . It is my understanding that Electrolysis is too expensive to arrive at a viable cost - but HEY, it will come down in price through economies of scale but where is the “Scale” coming from ?

[@jonevansauthor]

Completely correct. We've had actual chemists on the show before who carefully explained the truth which is making steel, making fertiliser and perhaps some smaller niches in the future but all powered by renewables. Maybe some niche vehicles might use it when energy is abundant. But not passenger or heavy goods vehicles. Rockets? Possibly.

[@judebrown4103]

Certainly not a banana. Only Dull Men will get that reference, how many are here I wonder.🤔😂

[@ObsidianWalker]

Interesting comments here. Wonder what is the future for longer distance HGVs

[@MichaelKing-bv4tv]

BEV

[@jonevansauthor]

It's electric but it's the current, no pun intended, because every HGV manufacturer that will still exist is already building them. Even Volvo makes them. There are zero downsides as long as you are capable of running a small business and can understand some basic maths.

[@danielmadar9938]

Thanks

[@r.a.monigold9789]

What is the source of isolated Hydrogen? Does isolating Hydrogen require energy? What is the source of that energy? What is the NET result of Hydrogen extraction? Commonly called rusting iron is scientifically termed Iron Oxide. Water - Dihydrogen Oxide - in common terms is rusted Hydrogen. The "natural" state of Oxygen is a pair O2 - not O. Oh...

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

☆FSD, AI computer control on the roads means robotic vehicle manufacturing 24/7 in a 'small ' factory will be normal. USA 300million vehicles. Europe 500million vehicles ?? Australia 20million vehicles. 'Dirt cheap' big batteries on wheels. Selfplug-in V2G EVs parked 23hrs daily and driving building to building. Rooftop solar PV installed is cheaper than windows $/m2 in Australia. 32m2 Cold latitudes 66m2 or 100m2 or ... Vertical wall solar PV panels ?? Rooftop space available on avg is 220m2. A little fossil fuels used in mid winter weeks is nothing. Petroleum feedstock to petrochemical industry will continue. Natural gas is cleaner. Labour supply from shrinking populations will limit the need for workforce labour immigration. 😊

[@davidl.howser9707]

Maybe the EveryThing Electric Show would investigate the Swedes burning iron powder to heat home furnaces than recycling the iron oxide residue (known as rust) back into iron, to be burned again, and again. All non polluting activities. Then consider up-sizing the Swedes iron powder burning furnace concept by converting an existing UK coal powder burning furnace to iron powder burning which then will drive an electric steam generator once again while not polluting the atmosphere. Why then stop “ burning stuff ”, if non- polluting ? So with iron powder as a renewable fuel source used in this way, the UK can restart those mothballed, and maligned UK coal power plants to power the UK Electric Economy ! Oh note that the iron is mined just once before recycling the burnt iron to iron oxide locally back to iron powder near to the electric generation plant over, and over for reuse of the same iron. The iron, to fire the furnace the first time, is abundant. Available World wide.

[@judebrown4103]

This is interesting. I'm sure you'll correct me but isn't there always some pollutant particles released into the atmosphere when you burn anything? Or are you saying this is a completely closed system, in which case how does that work please? It sounds very industrial for a domestic setting, I'm sure I'm missing something obvious like a centralised system. In case you can't already tell by my daft questions, I'm not a scientist, just a reasonably intelligent but less educated interested bystander! Edit: also what is the process that makes the iron into powder in the first place, please?

[@davidl.howser9707]

@@judebrown4103 Google the text line "ESA-Burning Iron" "under Science and Exploration". There is a straightforward article that is genuine from a well known, and respected science based European Government Agency with many thoughtful "experts" with the most important skill to have, that being "expertise". When there at the ESA site, please take a monument to click on both the "Details" & "Related" tabs to read more. Then Google "The Metal Powder Industries Federation" & include in your text the title "Making Metal Powder". "The first step in the overall powder metallurgy (PM) process is making metal powders. There are four main processes used in powder production: solid-state reduction, atomization, electrolysis, and chemical." Hope this helps you explore this concept. Please reply again if you find something of interest to look into at more depth, but these articles should help to know more. Also many Google Patent searches on this topic bring up thoughtful ideas being explored of how to best commercialize, and move forward to powering our World with abundant electricity. Thank you for your polite questions. Nice of you to ask to know more on the topic.

[@williamarmstrong7199]

A newly designed and built oil refinery (takes 25 years to do) can do that. However one of the most important outputs from refineries (for the UK) is tar to be used on roads. This is why we sell all our North Sea oil (low tar) and fund terrorists by buying Arab oil (very high tar) so we have the tar needed for our roads.

[@leoyoung7547]

Hydrogen is odourless, colourless and explosive. OH! And the flames are invisible. Can you imagine being a first responder to an auto accident? You will not rush in to help the folks in the accident until it has been hosed down by the fire department. In the meantime the person in the vehicle dies for the lack of first aid. I am fine with hydrogen for stationary applications.

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

Can I say. ☆Grid itself is a massive resource with universal connection and cash flow. Grid is critical to rapid transition from fossil fuels to clean electricity. Grid electricity increased supply means more grid. And not more electricity in the existing grid. Grid needs all customers to share the infrastructure costs The irony. Grid too expensive to expand. And too expensive to abandon. And too expensive to keep ??? 😮

[@jammiedodger7040]

We’re gonna need to continue using natural gas for a couple decades and we will always need coal.

[@mikemellor759]

An interesting topic but not explained. You’ve interviewed Michael Liebreich and his Hydrogen Ladder - it would have been good to ask her to comment.

[@jammiedodger7040]

Alternative fuels are the future like Biofuel and Hydrogen.

[@frankcoffey]

Hydrogen is very inefficient. You have to use energy to make it and then store or transport it. It's so much better to just charge batteries. The only way it might make some sense is if you have so much excess solar or wind that you needed to use it up or it goes to waste. It would also have to be so cheap that's it's cheaper than electricity. However, consumers have learned from gas, ink cartridges, frig filters, etc. that consumables are a trap and the price will go up in time and for some made up reason.

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

☆Vested interests. Grid owners have a $TRILLION asset that is RENTED by the electricity customers. 5cents feedin vs 50cents invoiced. Electricity is DIRT cheap. Fossil fueled generation owners have $BILLIONS assets that make the $TRILLIONS asset, the grid, valued. Distant renewables electricity and nuclear electricity both need the grid. And make the grid valued. Rooftop solar PV and EV big batteries do not need the grid. We have a problem. A vested interests problem. 1,Grid owners, 2,fossil fuel owners, 3,distant renewables owners, 4,nuclear owners, 5,nuclear promoters, 6,central generation plant owners, 7,governments Garrentees locked in for 60years 😕🫤😟😮😱🥴 8,But not green hydrogen, unless they align with all the above. Unhappy 🙁 days, A little fossil fuels used in mid winter weeks is nothing. Petroleum feedstock to petrochemical industry will continue. Natural gas is cheaper.

[@roberthutchinson4473]

Yasmin talked about heat usage being important. Why do you! waste all the heat created from nuclear plants. Must be massive.

[@jamesgrover2005]

Robert I grow my own lettuce🤫

[@jasonrhl]

Do you use your own captured water?

[@jamesgrover2005]

@@jasonrhl yes.. It's just everything else that I eat that's a problem😉

[@rp9674]

Very green & possibly red

[@jasonrhl]

@@jamesgrover2005 LOL

[@johndunlop4790]

She doesn’t appear to be aware of the regenerative agriculture systems which generate their own nitrogen.

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

☆ FSD factory production 24/7/365 is 8,760 hrs vs 2,000 man hours per year and no holidays, sick leave, training days, std bye workers, weekends, public holidays, The factory can be 5 times smaller or 5 times more productive. 🤔 😮😊 'Dirt cheap' electricity off rooftop solar PV and 'Dirt cheap' big batteries on wheels. Expensive grid will not be needed.

[@kenndo9906]

She seems to have a blinkered knowledge...not her fault she should watch fully charged

[@highlanderapparel]

😮 Is that the. 1,000,000. U Tube, I see on your wall, The. Highlander

[@nosuchthingasshould4175]

I would say that even if you are yourself fully self sufficient and somehow decoupled from the entire economy (!?!), as long as you are not being murdered by roving war bands of scavengers- you are still relying heavily upon fossil fuels.

[@andrewb4539]

Unfortunately Robert likes hydrogen

[@knodie6694]

I don't believe that the Avocado is better than beef from the other side of the road. In beef production they add also CO2 for soybean production and hauling. But a UK cattle only gets UK gras and UK water. Everything else is already to expensive. Don't believe statics except you turned the numbers yourself

[@HughButler35]

We can change 80% by 2030. Just got to stop funding fossil fuel, and that money. Eg. India spent $40b on fossil fuel subsidies in 2023. $10b on solar and batteries per year for 4 years would replace all coal and gas in India. Be optimistic.

[@CharlesBrown-xq5ug]

Technology may have advanced enough to release civilization from the confines of the second law of thermodynamics. These confines were imposed during Victorian England's scientific and religious cultural fascination with steam engines. The second law is behind modern refgeration needing electrical energy to compress the refrigerent to force it to release as waste the heat that it has removed from the refrigerator's service interior in the cooling part of the refrigerent's circulation. There is also discarded heat from mechanical friction and electrical resistance. Refrigeration by the principle that energy is conserved should produce electricity instead of consuming it. It makes more sense that refrigerators should yield electricity because energy is widely known to change form with no ultimate path of energy gain or loss being found. Therefore any form of fully recyclable energy can be cycled endlessly in any quantity. In an extreme case senario, full heat recycling, all electric, very isolated underground, undersea, or space communities would be highly survivable with self sufficient EMP resistant LED light banks, automated vertical farms, thaw resistant frozen food storehouses, factories, dwellings, and self contained elevators and horizontal transports. In a flourishing civillization senario, small self sufficient electric or cooling devices of many kinds and styles like lamps, smartphones, hotplates, water heaters, cooler chests, fans, radios, TVs, cameras, security devices. power hand tools, pumps, and personal transports, would be available for immediate use incrementally anywhere as people see fit. Equipment groups would be on local networks. If a high majority thinks our civilization should geoengineer gigatons or teratons of carbon dioxide out of our etnvironment, instalations using devices that convert ambient heat into electricity can hypothetically be scaled up do it with a choice of comsequences including many beneficial ones. Energy sensible refrigerators that absorb heat and yield electricity would complement computers as computing consumes electricity land yields heat. Computing would be free. Chips could have energy recycling built in. A simple rectifier crystal can, iust short of a replicatable long term demonstration of a powerful prototype, almost certainly filter the random thermal motioren of electrons or discrete positiive charged voids called holes so the electric current flowing in one direction predominates. At low system voltage a filtrate of one polarity predominates only a little but there is always usable electrical power derived from the source, which is Johnson Nyquest thermal electrical noise. This net electrical filtrate can be aggregated in a group of separate diodes in consistent alignment parallel creating widely scalable electrical power. The maximum energy is converted from ambient heat to productive electricity when the electrical load is matched to the array impeadence. Matched impeadence output (watts) is k (Boltzman's constant, 1.38 exponent minus 23, times T (tempeature Kelvin) times bandwidth (0 Hz to a natural limit ~2 THz @ 290 K) times rectification halving and nanowatt power level rectification efficiency times the number of diodes in the array. For reference, there are a billion cells of 1000 square nanometer area each per square millimeter, 100 billion per square centimeter. Order is imposed on the random thermal motion of electrons by the structual orderlyness of a diode array made of diodes made within a slab: ______________________ - Out 🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻 ______________________ + Out All the P type semiconductor anodes abut a metal conductive plane deposited on the top face of the slab with nonrectifying joins; all the N type semiconductor cathodes abut the bottom face. As the polarity filtered electrical energy is exported, the amount of thermal energy in the group of diodes decreases. This group cooling will draw heat in from the surrounding ambient heat at a rate depending on the filtering rate and thermal resistance between the group and ambient gas, liquid, or solid warmer than absolute zero. There is a lot of ambient heat on our planet, more in equatorial dry desert summer days and less in polar desert winter nights. Focusing on explaining the electronic behavior of one composition of simple diode, a near flawless crystal of silicon is modified by implanting a small amount of phosphorus (N type)on one side from a ohmic contact end to a junction where the additive is suddenly and completely changed to boron (P type) with minimal disturbance of the crystal lattice. The crystal then continues to another ohmic contact. A region of high electrical resistance forms at the junction in this type of diode when the phosphorous near the ĵunction donates electrons that are free to move elsewhere while leaving phosphorus ions held in the crystal while the boron ions donate holes which are similalarly free to move. The two types of mobile charges mutually clear each other away near the junction leaving little electrical conductivity. An equlibrium width of this region is settled between the phosphorus, boron, electrons, and holes. Thermal noise is beyond steady state equlibrium. Thermal noise transients, where mobile electrons move from the phosphorus added side to the boron added side ride transient extra conductivity so the forward moving electrons are preferentally filtered into the external circuit. Mobile electrons are units of electric current. They lose their thermal energy of motion and gain electromotive force, another name for voltage, as they transition between the junction and the array electrical tap. Inside the diode, heat is absorbed: outside the diode, an attached electrical circuit is energized. Understanding diodes is one way to become convinced that Johnson Nyquest thermal electrical noise can be rectified and aggregated. Self assembling development teams may find many ways to accomplish this wide mission. Taxonomically there should be many ways to convert heat directly into electricity. A practical device may use an array of Au needles in a SiO2 matrix abutting N type GaAs. These were made in the 1970s when registration technology was poor so it was easier to fabricate arrays and select one diode than just make one diode. There are other plausible breeches of the second law of thermodynamics. Hopefully a lot of people will join in expanding the breech. Please share the successes or setbacks of your efforts. These devices would probably become segmented commodities sold with minimal margin over supply cost. They would be manufactured by advanced automation that does not need financial incentive. Applicable best practices would be adopted. Business details would be open public knowledge. Associated people should move as negotiated and freely and honestly talk. Commerce would be a planetary scale unified conglomerate of diverse local cooperatives. There is no need of wealth extracting top commanders. We do not need often token philanthropy from the top if the wide majority of people can afford to be generous. Aloha Charles M Brown Kilauea Kauai Hawaii 96754

[@pete_dl1585]

Why does it look like a purple light is illuminating your face Robert ?

[@rp9674]

He's a human, why wouldn't he be 100% human

[@luciferdevil4725]

Hydrogen is future even small country accept hydrogen as fuel

[@t1n4444]

Crikey Robert! I do believe you're a closet hydrogenista! Anyway not a bad interview at all. Your guest was excellent from my perspective. Sincerely hope we'll see her again for updates when you can arrange such.

[@fredhearty1762]

Transitioning to renewable energy sources is NOT 'mind-bogglingly complicated'. It is, in fact, mind-bogglingly simple. Shame on you.

[@ferkeap]

Chaotic mess. 😢 Make Programm list before interviewing. Write down your new points. And Shorten your throwback memories.

[@dominicgoodwin1147]

Iàm stopping watching at about 35 minutes in. It is just too depressing realising the scale of the problem.

[@osopolarmovies]

Nuclear energy will take over. Fossil energy is OK with me, the gas of life, CO2 has made our Planet greener.😊

[@BillsCountrysideAdventures]

The bloody wobble on your camera is driving my eyes and head mad. Don't have camera on the table you are using

[@rp9674]

That's Law & Order technique, it's very cool to be nauseous

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

☆Do you think Tesla will build a Selfplug-in V2G EV ??? 😮 Most vehicles are parked 23hrs every day and drive building to building. EV battery is up to 10 times bigger than a home battery and is free with the vehicle. 😊😊😊😊 Building rooftop solar PV can run the home or work place daily, and EV can be peaker plants and through the quiet dark hours of the night. Lighting efficiency is exploding in the streets and homes and buildings.

[@addsfour3499]

Not criticising, genuinely curious. So if the vehicle is part of the grid overnight, what happens in the morning when you want to use it to go to work if the battery is depleted during the night?

[@addsfour3499]

Certainly can see cars being part of your home structure. My father in law uses his car as a backup for his house

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

@addsfour3499 I can see the vehicle being topped up daily. All buildings with rooftop solar PV panels. All buildings powered by their rooftop solar PV. EVs big battery is for the long drive. EVs' big battery is 10 times bigger than most homes need at night. Most daily drives are only 7kwh on avg. Rapid chargers will be on the main roads and at corner stores if required. Nobody does the maths. In Australia, 20 million buildings and vehicles. 660gWh daily generation and 2,000gWh in storage. Fossil fueled generation is 25gW or 600gWh daily MAXIMUM if you are lucky. So yes, both rooftops and EV's big batteries are more than adequate. In USA 300million of both. UK similar ratio.

[@TroggyPB]

@@addsfour3499 V2G does not commit you to offering the whole of your battery capacity. Part of setting up the V2G protocol is you telling the V2G interface controller (whatever that is) how much reserved charge is needed for the next day or how much it can take into the grid. These factors have already been thought about.

[@addsfour3499]

@@TroggyPB gotcha. I do like the sound of being able to plug my car to my house at night tho

[@johnmightymole2284]

Hydrogen, no thanks.