The Global Race For Critical Metals! with Vince Beiser

[@markiliff]

~52:00 Counterpoint: In 1970 or '71 I did a holiday job in Veenendaal, about 30 km from Utrecht, and even then it was unmistakeably a cycling place: profusion of bike lanes, bike phase on the traffic lights, the family I was staying with had a spare bike I could use to get to work… the whole thing.

[@yagolf]

Thanks! Depressing as it is, it is still really worth watching and sharing. We need to educate ourselves so that we become less decoupled from the reality that surrounds us

[@ecospider5]

The number 1 way to stop people from stealing copper. Make sure a real job that pays more than stealing copper does.

[@klaxoncow]

The number one way to reduce crime: Eradicate poverty. That's a well-known statistical fact. When the economy tanks, crime rates rise. (I remember the Labour government getting in trouble for this when the 2008 Banking Crisis hit, as they sent an internal memo around to every government department, warning them of exactly that statistical fact - as the world economy was about to go down the pan, government departments should expect a rise in crime rates. The Tory-leaning media got outraged at this - how dare they cast aspersions! - but, like, it was a highly responsible statement-of-fact to prepare for what, by the way, inevitably consequently happened, however outraged the Daily Fail wanted to be about it.) Truth is, we all implicitly know this to be true. I'm going to offer you a choice, deliberately short on details. You can move home to a rich neighbourhood or a poor neighbourhood. That's all you're getting. So what's your choice? The overwhelming majority would choose the rich neighbourhood. Because, even without knowing exactly where it is, you already implicitly know that the schools will be better, the crime rates will be lower, the upkeep of the roads and parks will be better. We implicitly know the truth, even if we will not admit it to ourselves: In our societies, the poor are left to rot. I remember debating a conservative American who was talking about "lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps". And I challenged him that this was exactly what the drug dealer, prostitute, burglar, etc. were doing. Yes, these are illegal "businesses" that society would rather didn't exist. But they are businesses. The drug dealer sells products to make money. The prostitute sells themselves to make money. The burglar thieves to fence off those stolen goods to make money. They are "lifting themselves up by their own bootstraps". Just in illegal ways, being entrepreneurs in fields of illegitimate business, that society would rather they didn't. But, in fairness, if their retort is "society never helped me when I was rock bottom, so why should I care about what society wants in return?" then though we can't endorse that, we can certainly understand it. If society provided them the means to earn such sums legally, then they'd surely take it. They are "lifting themselves up by their own bootstraps" but just in all the ways that society doesn't want them to. There are some crimes that are not motivated by money. For example, "crimes of passion" where a husband, in a fit of rage, kills his wife and her lover for their adulterous betrayal. And some crime is not out of desperate need but out of greed: Such as white-collar fraud and corporate crime - as they're not sort on the cash at all, but are just greedy little sods to try to illegitimately horde yet more. But, if you tick off all the different types of crime that exists, then it's easily some 90+% of them are financially motivated. Such as bumping off a relative to try to gain their inheritance, call centre scams, stealing electricity or next door's cable TV. This is a well-known proven statistical fact, across countries, across cultures, across time - part of the Human Condition - when the economy nose-dives, the crime stats soar. Make everyone prosperous and watch the crime stats drop. There has been, overall, across centuries, a decline in violent crime - and an overall steady decline in crime - and this is because, through technology, even our very poorest live better than kings once did, centuries ago. There is a steady rise in the standard of living, just because we experience "better living through technology" overall, and the crime stats exactly match it proportionally. People like to act like there's some big mysterious reason - or genetic or cultural reason - behind crime, in order to excuse themselves from taking any action, on the simple plain truth staring us in the face, that all the numbers concur on, across every country, culture and time that ever recorded their numbers. The city of Ancient Rome. Where were crime rates highest? Yes, that's right. In the inner city. Exactly where its worst in our modern cities as well, despite two thousand years of time and a sea-change of cultural progress and difference. The pattern is clear and obvious, and there really is zero "mystery" to be found in the stats. Eradicate poverty and crime rates drop. No, it won't solve all crime - just, ooh, 90% of it in one fell swoop.

[@Mr.N0.0ne]

Your second sentence would benefit from a proofread in order to make sense.

[@geob3963]

How will you get a taxpayer funded return on your prison investments if there are no criminals to put into publicly funded prison system?

[@davefroman4700]

People like you are going to have a tough time adjusting to the demise of this social/economic system. The first industrial revolution was actually the 6th time in history that technology convergences triggered the abandonment of an established social/economic/political system, and the birth of a new reality. Our Malthusian era forefathers did not foresee the arrival of the digital autonomous era we are now stepping into. Nor did they understand that their beliefs and idea's? Were not scientifically valid in the first place...

[@ecospider5]

Does exist. Thanks for the correction

[@TheDanEdwards]

It's not so much *we* _handed_ leverage to the PRC (though the guest assumes that is always bad for some reason), because of the raw material processing, but that multinational corporations did not want to pay the wages and taxes in Western countries. It's more profitable to have the PRC do the dirty work then buy the finished material to put into value-added products to sell.

[@BobQuigley]

Exhausted by endless china bashing especially when you consider what British in particular did to China, India, Africa and many other nations for hundreds of years. To my knowledge China has not invaded any nation for a long time. Didn't rape pillage plunder and kill millions. In addition China has no desire to destroy its customers around the world. China did not form an entity like NATO which acts lawlessly and against the needs and best interests of 8 billion precious humans. Here in US we've been at war non-stop for decades. We just elected a criminal, rapist, conman, crook, liar to the most powerful office in the world. Many of our allies are in decline.

[@bobwallace9753]

Put it more succinctly. China became the low cost provider. The market spoke.

[@thekaxmax]

PRC is involved==they have some control over what you are doing, particularly resource availability, therefore bad. There's not a way this is good, even cost in the long run.

[@karlInSanDiego]

Great guest and episode, Robert. Keeping it 100. The emissions and complexity of extraction is exactly the reason why we should be pivoting to electric catenary (not battery) rail and lean lithium powered micromobility. We are actually increasing the emissions cost of transportation production through industry with the transition to EV, while describing this as a win. I'm not making the argument for ICE, but instead understand that emissions reduction using a passing technology that won't survive through mid-century (full sized EVs) is a mistake. We need to look farther ahead and understand we can't all drive Tesla sized cars that are built and rebuilt, purchased and repurchased in 3 year lease cycles. Did you know that Rivian R1T exceeded its predicted production emissions made by GREET2, by 19.4 tons CO2e or nearly double? Polestar 2 exceeded its GREET2 production emissions estimate by 11 tons CO2e also nearly double. Those were figures Rivian and Polestar published. Yet much of our policy and belief that EVs will one day be sustainable is based on the work done using GREET and GREET2. We don't get to indiscriminately emit highly until 2050 as if there is no continuation of car use/production after that date. No one in the auto journalism industry is doing the math on producing large EVs under zero carbon emissions. It won't work. Redwood Materials was not the first and wasn't the largest hydrometallurgical recycler, despite their braggadocios claims. We know that company because JB Straubel was the early lead Tesla Electrical Engineer. Glad that company is working at this with a pilot with the assistance of the State of California, but this channel featured Helen touring Duesenfeld in May 2020. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKHIaXuXobuLfLc Some production figures-GREET2 is emissions transportation modeling from the USA's national Argonne Labs, commonly used in academia for policy decisions. Note lifetime mileage of the vehicles is not relevant to actual production emissions, but you need it to work backwards from the g/mile CO2e Rivian R1T: Rivian admitted 39.28 production tons CO2e in this report, though you have to use interpolation method to derive that figure as they obscured it in a graph without labeling the data point. Pg. 22. downloads.rivian.com/2md5qhoeajym/1B94cwRuIpsdG3zQuiUREG/8c925a8ea8f19bc34ce14af57659ccee/Rivian_2022_Impact_Report.pdf You must normalize the g/mile across Rivian's estimated 155,000 miles to get production CO2e. Here is Carbon Counter (MIT using GREET2 modeling) www.carboncounter.com/#!/details?cars=32 Focus on the vehicle and battery production and normalize across GREET2s universal estimate of 169,400 miles, to derive true production number of 19.84 tons. Polestar Impact Report pg 20: www.polestar.com/dato-assets/11286/1600176185-20200915polestarlcafinala.pdf CarbonCounter GREET2: www.carboncounter.com/#!/details?cars=36593 Polestar was obviously horrified that despite all their best efforts to build a LEED plant in China to produce cars, that it is the full supply chain, including their parts suppliers, whom they cannot effectively police or control, who made their cars appreciably higher emitting than the models had previously assumed they'd be. They say they have ambitions for zero carbon production, but as we can see from your guest's book, it's not as simple as inventing a EV mining truck. Capitalism, industry, and the race to the bottom or even just profitability at all, will cheat and resist at all turns, and you cannot be a clean car, zero production emissions Pollyanna and sell cars on the same market with those who don't choose to build a zero production emissions car, as if that will ever be possible (hint, it won't be). We should be using this time, these resources to build public electric catenary (not battery powered) mass transit rail and lean micromobility which will be sustainable if anything will. Don't wait until 2050 to recognize we must live under completely different rules. Understand that today and transition wisely.

[@karlInSanDiego]

For those who cannot internalize the seriousness of 11 tons CO2e or 19.4 tons CO2e missing from estimates or that they actually involved double that intensity, the world's per capita emissions in 2023 was 4.67 tons CO2 and USA and Canada's per capita is 14.3 tons and 13.98 tons respectively. But those aren't transportation emissions. That includes food, shelter, clothing, shared infrastructure, shared buildings, and excludes very high military emissions. We need to get to ~2 tons CO2e per capita for all countries by mid century (26 short years from now), so high production emissions from EVs won't fit in that world, especially not if we have to fight over these limited/bottlenecked resources which we most certainly would do.

[@0KiteEatingTree0]

You need to get Chris and Mellisa from the Dutch Cycling Embassy on the show as well as NotJustBikes

[@frejaresund3770]

I have been enjoyed, so thank you for sharing.

[@Mr.N0.0ne]

Who enjoyed you? A lover?

[@frejaresund3770]

@Mr.N0.0ne no comment, that's confidential.

[@Paul-yh8km]

The Torx 'star' shaped keys for Torx bolts and screws can be bought at DIY stores. They are similar to Allen keys.

[@NAY2GAS]

18:45 the issue is that everyone is complicit. Every single person in the modern world uses cobalt. Not just electric vehicles. It’s in so many different products that are in your house right now That shiny surface on your mugs and dishes are made with cobalt Tires and airbags in your car are made with cobalt They refine gasoline with cobalt. The only way that you won’t use it, if you live in a clay hut that you made yourself

[@bobwallace9753]

We can get cobalt out of EVs. LFP batteries do not contain cobalt. And EVs will stop the use of cobalt for gasoline refining.

[@thekaxmax]

There are lithium and cobalt mines in Australia. It's down to the tech and manufacturing companies to use responsible mines.

[@thekaxmax]

A Brit company has an ev motor that uses no permanent magnets, no copper, no rare earths (except for a tiny amount in the control electronics), and doesn't cost a load. Selling for commercial vehicles first, though

[@keithoneill6273]

Sounds interesting.

[@SeekingBeautifulDesign]

I've seen the huge bicycle lot around Amsterdam Centraal as well as in Beijing. In Beijing I was the only one with a helmet but people rode so slow that accidents weren't serious. Feet were often used for braking. Seats much too low for efficient pedaling. But Amsterdam had taller Dutch cyclists going much faster with better seat height. Oddest factoid resulted-bicycle initiated accident severity much worse in Netherlands than China.

[@pinkelephants1421]

Robert's comments about people who try to cut themselves off from the modern world reminded me of a clip from a documentary about the Taliban and the young son of one of their top officials in Kabul. The kid said to the videogragher that his dad thought education was a sin - as this kid rode to (school) in a high-end luxury car of some sort. Without many people having had an excellent education, all of the modern day conveniences that him, his parents, & the rest of the Taliban automatically take for granted & enjoy without giving them a second thought, they simply wouldn't exist. No small irony there then, is there. The same goes for the new technologies that so many people love to be critical of, but haven't given a 2nd thought to where all of the 'stuff' in their lives originate from; it all has to to be grown, or dug up, transported, processed, and transported again to the end user, usually in multiple stages.

[@Steve-co1ic]

How far the human race has advanced should always be measured against the fact we still dig holes and bury our waste, make more of the same products we just buried and repeat

[@ajemohaltom3560]

It turns out that lead acid batteries are very easy to recycle. It's just a bit hazardous. If a small scale SLA recycling kit could be sold on the residential level, it would make up for their short charge cycle life.

[@bobwallace9753]

Lithium batteries are very highly recyclable. I've been off the grid for about 30 years, many of those years with lead acid batteries. Thick plate batteries designed for off grid use. LFP batteries are far superior. And they are just as recyclable as lead acid.

[@bobwallace9753]

It would be helpful if you included the mess created by oil. And how oil gives outsized political control to Middle Eastern countries. Unfortunately we do not have a perfect solution for transportation. We cannot force people to use only their feet to get from place to place. But with EVs we can produce the raw materials in multiple countries. And we can largely recycle EV materials over and over as opposed to 'use it only once' oil. We are opening lithium and rare earth mineral extraction and refining outside of China. It's a process.

[@thekaxmax]

There are also companies storing energy and co2 as manufactured oil, carbon neutral, for things like aviation.

[@OenkePoenke]

Congo (and that is just one example) is also a source for oil. The conditions in that country are generally terrible, in all industries. That we only hear about "new"-energy related mining problems is not (at all!) because it doesn't happen in other industries aswell. Should I start talking about everbody's shoes, clothes etc (we all know that, don't we?) produced in SE-Asia and China? I know from the people themselves. Sometimes people care, most of the time they don't. But there are people and organizations (guess who) interested in always pushing about problems in EV and renewable related mining. And btw, big oil doesn't need to care about children in their production chain, they have them slaughtered and expelled in the countless wars and conflicts that have been (and still are and always will be) ignited by demand, dependence and profits. And that applies to all digging and mining (and agriculture and ...), of course.

[@SisGuitarGAS]

A hard-hitting episode. Thanks for not shying away from the topic

[@bobwallace9753]

There's no nickle in LFP batteries. The EV industry is rapidly moving to lithium iron phosphate batteries. Highly recyclable.

[@TerryHickey-xt4mf]

no cobalt either.

[@theunknownunknowns256]

Some lithium was made in the early universe before stars formed. Per John Greens' Crash Course Pods: The Universe.

[@TerryHickey-xt4mf]

when you look at the periodic table I was surprised to see how close lithium was to Hydrogen, the oldest one of the lot.

[@jthefishy]

50 kw will be fast enough for a place like that. But the price means I've never used thoughs chargers, also they are at the furthest point from any shop on the car park

[@bobwallace9753]

That is starting to change. Merchants are starting to realize that when EV drivers plug in they typically hang around for about a half hour. And they don't need to "stand by the pump", but can come inside the store/restaurant and spend money. Much better than selling gas where you hope the drivers will fill, pull into a parking spot, and come inside.

[@grottyboots]

I recall walking around downtown Kolkata, near an Air India office, and seeing a man squeezing lighter fluid (the iconic Ronsonol tin can, of course) onto a ~1m high tangled pile of small-gauge wire, then lighting it on fire. Apparently the value of bare copper is worth more than insulated wire, environment be damned!

[@graham6t1]

Big on where metals like Cobalt and Nickel come from and the environmental and societal damage mining these ores does, and how EV batteries need these elements. No mention about Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries not using either of these elements, though smartphones, laptops, tablets, power tools, rechargeable toothbrushes all still do, and there are billions of those. No mention that even if EV batteries stop using Cobalt and Nickel, Big Oil will still consume huge amounts of Cobalt to use in refining crude oil, or that the Steel Industry will still use vast quantities of Nickel to use for rust prevention and for the manufacture of Stainless Steel! And, as for Lithium, that's an important medicine for the treatment of Bi-Polar Disorder!!! But, as far as raw quantities of these elements is concerned, that represent minute quantities in comparison to Iron. 2.6 BILLION tones of Iron is extracted every year in order to satisfy our insatiable demand for everything in our modern lives. You want to see REAL environmental damage? Go visit your nearest Iron mine! Not quibbling about what was actually said, just very disappointed about what WASN'T said. |t was really a programme designed to meet an Agenda.

[@lucianbakerii4047]

The US government is putting large tariffs on Chinese made products due to Chinese government support of Chinese businesses. But now the US government is supporting US businesses to improve US raw material supply chains. So the US tariffs are just making US customers pay for the lack of foresight and leadership in US government. Sulfur dioxide reacts with water in the atmosphere to form sulfuric and sulfurous acid. This precipitates as acid rain.

[@jasonrhl]

I thought he said shi*loads not ship loads. I had to rewind :D

[@knotknots6601]

"Star shaped screw" = Torx? The new standard drive for screws is just an upgrade from Philips drive. Much worse are the various plastic 'click-designs' that are not meant to be taken apart.

[@SeekingBeautifulDesign]

Sure...a standard in construction, but various MacBooks may use torx security (torx with center prong) and/or pentalobe. Can get those screwdrivers, but yet another thing to get and very uncommon for the majority.

[@knotknots6601]

@@SeekingBeautifulDesign In most cases, that is probably more a design feature than a flaw...🤷

[@Silversqueeze2025]

Silver is the first element on the periodic table that will become extinct in industrial quantities which means by the availability of metric tons of it

[@patrickmckowen2999]

👍

[@infraredsprouts2073]

Another book word reading, Cobalt Red: by Siddharth Kara.

[@keithoneill6273]

And Material World by Ed Conway.

[@theunknownunknowns256]

Robert I adore you but for the love of Flying Spaghetti Monster let the man talk some.

[@garysmith5025]

These interviews are getting difficult to listen to for exactly that reason.

[@scotteladd2537]

Isn’t the majority of cobalt used for removing sulfur from diesel fuel?

[@bobwallace9753]

I don't think it's the majority. But some cobalt is consumed in refineries. And that cobalt cannot be recovered and reused like the cobalt in batteries.

[@garysmith5025]

About 10% of cobalt is used in oil refining. It's often claimed that the cobalt catalyst is recycled, true in that it gets recycled to keep the process efficient, but in reality all the cobalt eventually ends up in fuel. Our business manufactures air sampling systems. We recently started trialling units that can detect/collect 0.01micron particles and analyse what they are made of. One of the big surprises was the presence of cobalt oxides and nitrides in concentrations too high to be erosion from turbochargers. Cobalt isn't actually much of a health risk, but my point is that it simply ends up in the environment and will never be recycled.

[@TerryHickey-xt4mf]

no cobalt in LFP batteries, or nickel.

[@xlargetophat]

Rio tinto is majority owned by China apparently.. so thats am interesting fact

[@pabloxavier1085]

Yh we’re screwed

[@ecospider5]

I hope starship enables asteroid mining.

[@TheDanEdwards]

"they... us"

[@BiohaZd5]

Ahh South Africa…. 🇿🇦 sad news as always.

[@BiohaZd5]

“Democratic” republic of Congo

[@adrianaspalinky1986]

*American I'm being clever glasses ala Roy Schneider Little Miss Muffin played poker And my was she good at bluffin' Along came Roy Schneider Who sat down beside her And he used his Big rubber shark 🦈 To frighten her away

[@gordybishop2375]

The energy transition is bad? So he wants the status quo that was not damaging earth? Lol

[@bobwallace9753]

Gosh, renewable energy and EVs are not perfect. Let's stick with the worse stuff we're using now.

[@gordybishop2375]

@ exactly

[@emergingloki]

If vegans would examine the wholesale slaughter of wildlife required to maintain the monocultures needed to provide exotic produce, and the air miles required to get it to them before it spoils, they would be rather less holier-than-thou.

[@Mr.N0.0ne]

80 to 90 percent of crops are grown to feed animals to make meat. If you genuinely care about harm to wildlife killed through monocrop agriculture (you don't) you would stop eating meat today and switch to a plant diet, which uses fewer crops, thus harming fewer wild animals. The caloric efficiency of beef, for example, is at best 10 percent. You need to feed a cow 20,000 calories to make one burger. You need to feed it about 30,000,000 calories before you can turn it into meat. The majority of the land on Earth that is used for crops is used for cattle. I won't even get into the water, electricity, fossil fuels and drugs required to get a cow from birth to slaughter, or the negative effects the meat industry has on human health and the environment. And there is no point bringing up what it does to the animals themselves as you will not care. It is wise to educate yourself before using an argument that is false, otherwise all you are doing is parroting someone else's mistake to make yourself feel better about the awful things you do.

[@SeekingBeautifulDesign]

Of course consider local perennial based polyculture food systems where where food miles become food steps, agriculture inputs trend to zero, animal numbers and diversity increase, diet diversity increases...definitely more fun for vegans.

[@SeekingBeautifulDesign]

But consider local perennial based polyculture food systems where food miles become food steps, animal numbers and diversity increase, inputs trend to zero, soil health increases, diet diversity and resilience increases...fun for vegans.

[@garysmith5025]

Read what Our World in Data has to say about that subject. I'll give you a heads up, you're not even close to being correct.

[@keithoneill6273]

@@Mr.N0.0ne Excellent post!