Where is God in Suffering? Jon Steingard & Amy Orr-Ewing

Amy Orr-Ewing, co-director of OCCA and author of ‘Where Is God In All The Suffering?’, discusses the problem of pain with Jon Steingard, whose own doubts around Christian faith were triggered by seeing the suffering of children in Uganda.
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[@Frodanatee]

Two genuine interactors who seemed to genuinely understand each other. Beautiful show. From an atheist x

[@AlphaQee]

Love Jon steingard, he's just so appreciative and open to everyones input in these discussions whilst still thinking for himself and being honest with his thoughts and opinions, as challenging as they are. He's clearly very sincere in his position wether you agree or don't. Mutual level of respect is what these discussions need when talking about such serious topics.

[@joaofarias6473]

I really appreciate all of you for having this conversation! Thank you

[@giamo645]

I like your channel and my respect to you Justin. At the age of 13 I suffered the loss of my father despite my heartfelt and tearful prayers for a recovery during his 7 months lasting agony. This lead, after my father's death, to first blame my father to have abandoned me, as if he did not fight the illness enough (I remember the feeling but not the precise reasons for it) , then the 'deaf' god for beeing utterly unjust to a woman and 3 kids. This kind of experience can take one to strenghtening the faith which heals the pain of the loss with the hope of eternal life or as in my case, getting rid of religion and all that goes with it starting in my teens with the thought that the existence of a loving god is, to be fair, argueable while a 'not loving' god is not worth of consideration. We raised our unbaptized children (they were so lucky to be born sinlessly) with ethic values such as solidarity, generosity, respect for all races and sexual orientations and, as far as I can see, it's a pity that these principles are only seldom shared by christian/religious communities.

[@equinoxproject2284]

I've never been a believer but the thing that slammed the door completely for me was the suicide of my Nephew. He was a sweet kind and gentle boy that was messed up and in allot of emotional pain. As an unbelieving adult when he died, am i to understand that after a life of pain, he is now going to suffer an unspeakably torturous eternity because an all Good God, that could have but didn't, draw my Nephew to him?

[@chindi17]

I love this discussion and how civil it is. Many just try to win the argument. If our goal as Christians is to bring people to Christ we must listen more and speak less. We should also try to understand where the problem is coming from. I grew up in Kitwe, Zambia and has seen extreme poverty and suffering and even faced it though i consider myself blessed to be where i am at now. I was an atheist for a long time because of that suffering and the what i saw. For example my experience seeing 5 year olds begging for food with absolutely nothing I still wrestle with that as a Christian. How can God allow such suffering? I have not got an answer to this in my prayers So when i hear people try to think sophisticated argumentation will convince someone. It normally doesn't. It is the holy spirit that convicts us. I understand Jon. I am praying that God will speak to him. But i totally understand where he is coming from. I have been there and it took me years. I appreciate the way Amy conducted herself in the discussion. She was not trying to win the argument. She was listening and then presenting her side. That is civil discourse at it's best and it is how we Christians should conduct each other. It's kindness that lead people to repentance not winning arguments. It was kindness of a Christian friend that convinced me

[@DarnellFamily]

Wow. I’ve been to the slum outside of Kenya that they talk about, it left a similar impression on me and basically messed me up... had a lot of faith reconciling to do after. Love what she says afterwards, just encouraged me all these years later.

[@jackforeman2742]

Do you know if there is an ongoing effort to help?

[@SterlingTate]

My wife gave me something to chew on recently. She is a licensed counselor and assistant director for an assisted living facility for those with disabilities. Many of us can ascribe meaning to suffering, but often those with mental disabilities cannot. What meaning might there be for those suffering with mental disabilities?

[@tonywilliams49]

We have to do better then wait for supernatural help when our fellow man suffers.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

Agreed. It is our responsibility to change other people and show them their errors. But that doesn't mean that God isn't with us in these trials.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

@Scott Scotty I 1000000% agree with you that none of the gods that mankind has created have any evidence or power whatsoever. 1000000% agree. Maybe even 2000000%. BUT... That doesn't mean that there is not one true God. The God that Christians worship is not a created god. He is a metaphyscially necessary being beyond space and time. Do some SERIOUS research on the crucifixion and resurrection(supernatural) of Jesus Christ. You will find that there is an incredible level of evidence for that event which means that there, in fact, IS evidence for the supernatural. Heck, even look into the research done on NDE's. There is empirical evidence for the supernatural.

[@a.i.l1074]

That's the innovation of Christianity though, right? Universal salvation. And indeed, it's far and away the world's most diverse religion. These people had all visited slums in Africa through the church, places they never had to think about. Even if you're not convinced, you can work with Christians in your mission brother. Where you want to do good, we'll be there

[@mickeyesoum3278]

@Scott Scotty we can never let go of the supernatural - that would be to accept that reality is a horrible tragedy since all those who suffered horribly will never be compensated or helped in any way. We must focus on helping others, but we can never let go of God, or else we will be accepting a horrendous tragedy.

[@mickeyesoum3278]

@Scott Scotty yes, I think there's a genuine problem there. We shouldn't both accept that life is a horrendous tragedy while also pretending we can be happy. I don't think God or religion is fantasy - I am rationally convinced it's true, really -, and I think that if someone really thinks it's fantasy then it's hopeless. But for someone who is at least agnostic or finds enough wiggle room for a kind of developed belief to emerge, there are ethical reasons to motivate such a belief.

[@robdavis9643]

Great talk, Amy is awesome as very few churched leaders can talk in such a real grounded and understanding way. I really feel for Jon as it must be so hard to grow up in evangelical church where the hype is so loud but the still quiet reality of relationship with God can be easily lost in the loud evangelical church culture which seems exciting but may lack depth if you have not already found deep connection with God. I have seen so many other churched people like Jon wrestle with the same issue as they attempt to make sense of real life as opposed to the church life they grew up in that in a way sheltered them from reality. It is very normal what Jon is going through so that he can find a deeper real relationship with God and I would say well done Jon for doing it publicly.

[@cvsree]

God is always there. We seek him only when in trouble. That's what makes it difficult to get access to help. If we practice contemplating God everyday, we will be better equipped when we are in trouble

[@Chrisaaron5342]

Well said

[@remalim9471]

Amy is brilliant. John is going on and on. He needs to grow more in the faith. And have more encounters with God.

[@onionbelly_]

Do you have any idea how condescending you sound?

[@rl7012]

true.

[@RAFAEL27769]

Profound discussion,! Amy was brilliant, and I love Jon's humility and the thought-provoking questions, questions we all ask - particularly during these challenging times.

[@anupagnanakan9645]

I was listening to this podcast on my morning walk, here in Bangalore, India. I happened to walk past a young boy asleep with his parents on the pavement. As a mother of a young son, seeing this little boy in such conditions, broke my heart. I said a quick prayer asking God to give them a home. I know this is nothing compared to the other sufferings and injustices that are happening around. And it was totally coincidental that I was listening to this podcast on the morning that this happened. I do wonder where God is.

[@pwoods100]

Would it be so bad if there was no god?

[@oliverwinks168]

Also, the claim that the rejection of cruelty is a uniquely Christian idea is just total and utter BS. It's quite astounding, and a little terrifying, that Amy believes that!

[@neilcates3499]

I keep hoping that god will show up personally to set the record straight in one of the many Christian/atheist debates that I have watched. For some reason that never happens.

[@Iverath]

Isn't it weird that you can absolutely in 99% of the cases predict that god will not intervene or do anything detectable at all?

[@jonfromtheuk467]

he was probably busy "giving babies in Africa AIDS" ( Ricky Gervais)

[@catherinemoore9534]

😆 He/She'll set the record straight on Judgement Day.🤞🤞

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@catherinemoore9534 as usual the Christians like you gleefully look forward to people going to some infinite punishment for finite crimes. Even adding the fingers crossed to your post . Thats vile and I'm so glad that there isnt the shred of any evidence that such a god exist, there will be a judgment day where people are sent to two theme parks, one naughty one nice. Emancipate yourselves from such childlike notions.

[@catherinemoore9534]

@@jonfromtheuk467 Did you take in the emojis? It seems not... They pointed towards a light heated jokey reply, not the kind of heavy loaded message you got... Relax: taking everything seriously about religion is a total nightmare.

[@svenskaapologetiksallskape527]

I really get inspired by amy's attitude and perspectives! Thanx all!

[@blocker1954]

While I remain a Christian, I have abandoned a number of historical beliefs such as the Virgin Birth and Substitutionary Atonement but my main issue has always been the question of suffering. I have heard many of the leading Christians give their explanations and I have read many articles but none of them are satisfactory. Saying that God is with us in our suffering and that Hod knows suffering because of Jesus’ death is not satisfactory and doesn’t answer the question.

[@buck_maize111]

It's not a mystery or a difficult thing to work out on why we care about others suffering.. it's simple.. because we can imagine what that would feel like if it was us.. or our child or family member.. and we wouldn't like that to happen to them or ourselves.. we love our children and to think of them suffering makes us want to help or prevent those that actually are in that situation

[@brothercaleb]

Absolutely. And religion has little to nothing to do with it. 👍🏾

[@teachpeace3750]

I asked the heaven and free will question several times in seminary to my professors. It was disappointing to realize that no one could give me an explanation which truly grappled with the premise of the question. It always came down to a form of “God’s ways our higher than ours.” Considering most people don’t actually choose their belief system (i.e. it is often a product of their family or culture), the idea that we have a choice in these matters is not as simple as one would imagine. Further, the Bible seems to teach that we don’t have much of a choice either as accepting Christ as ones personal lord and savior is a gift through faith alone lest anyone should be able to boast of their salvation. Thus, it seems like god could have and should have simply created us in heaven. There is little use for this in between time that we live here on earth with respect to soteriology.

[@mattr.1887]

Did you finish seminary? What happened afterwards?

[@teachpeace3750]

@@mattr.1887 Yes, I did finish and was a strong Christian at graduation. I became a chaplain and working with people of different faith traditions highlighted a lot of things for me about the sociology of religion. Also, the trump years showed me just how little most US Christians actually cared about following the teachings of Jesus. The behavior of other Christians didn’t cause me to question the validity of theism, but it certainly helped keep the questions going as I saw faithful Christians follow such a terrible man.

[@vincent4644]

Pauls story in the Bible does an amazing job illustrating the pain he went through but still keeping his faith in God especially in Acts around the time Nero was killing Christians in Rome

[@littledeer1206]

Just a beautiful discussion, PERFECT. AMEN

[@blackdiamond2370]

Personally I think the argument is very weak. There's just too much of agreeing with each other and correctness involved which diluted any points made as well as taking away any strong argument to go by. Life is worth living regardless of whether you have a kid or not. Life is a journey and we continue to learn each day. My friend who has 4 kids committed suicide after not being able to deal with the depression, stress and mental developed after having kids. We are not on the earth just to reproduce and be reproductive robots. For anyone querying whether or not to have kids. The best answer is to focus on your personal growth and mental health.......truly taking care of yourself and wellbeing is so important in achieving a healthy, stable and happy life. This should be the main advice and focus for everyone.

[@michaellapalme1198]

Think of all those terrified women accused of being witches that were burned alive by mobs of paranoid virgins. But yeah, justice or whatever.

[@sallygator22]

Thank you for this excellent discussion.

[@walterseliga9676]

I've noticed a very unsettling thing. 41 min. 30 sec. into the video Amy is talking about humans asking God-Person this question: "How can you let this happening God?" And then, immediately refers us to the Bible to find the answer: "Bible presents the case that God is loving." So we have a nonsensical situation here; humans are directing questions to the living, personal Creator, and instead of waiting for HIS/HER/ITS answer start playing the game of deciphering the written text-Awesta, Vedas, Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible, The Book of Mormon, or what have you-as if a text was a substitute for a person. Nobody in their right mind conducts a dialogue with a text. The result of having a dialogue with a text is, for instance, 45 000 christian denominations, increasing by a new one every 10 hours. The same goes for islam, hinduism etc. If you address a question to a living person, why would you decipher some written text; that's very bizzare by my lights..

[@kevinrtres]

How about this question directed at you: Where does you life ( and that of all other living organisms ) come from? Did it really happen to start by chance? How? If you say you don't know but it wasn't God then you have blind faith in life having erupted spontaneously all by itself from non-living material without any intelligent and powerful agent acting on it.

[@walterseliga9676]

@@kevinrtres Dear Kevin. This kind of questions can be directed at the scientific community; they are experts. My humble task is to reason for myself and to ask reasonable questions. The motto of the Royal Society, 1660 AD: "Nullius in verba"-take nobody's word for it. This is my reasonable question: 1 hour 2 min. into the video Amy is saying this: "You and I can experience a personal relationship with the Creator-Person." So how come Amy and many others prefere instead a relationship with some written text. Something has gone terribly wrong here; one simply can not just replace a talking, living Creator-Person with some text, don't you guys see it.

[@fozzyami]

@@walterseliga9676 Hi Walter. It's a peculiar answer really. The bible is the living word of God. Which sounds like nonsense, and so I thought up in to my 30s, but my experience has shown this to be true. When you're reading the bible as a believer, even reading the same passages over and over through years, different elements will be more relevant to you, speak to you if you will. I don't know how else to describe it but your soul sings to read these things. If you think that something has gone wrong when we base our lives on human written text, then you've got a real problem with scientific white papers.

[@walterseliga9676]

@@fozzyami Dear Ian. What I am trying to say is this: If I read a novel say by Ernest Hemingway, I can not say that I am actually having a conversation with him. That's what I mean when I say that a text is no substitute for a person. I can not conduct a dialogue with a written text, can I? Your analogy with scientific papers is false because I don't read them in order to have a dialogue say with Albert Einstein. We read those papers to gain knowledge and not to "talk" to the author of the paper. When I am reading say Theory of Relativity by A. Einstein, I don't pretend that we are having a discussion. If The Bible is a living word of God and it is God who is guiding the reader how to understand the message, then you have even bigger problem. Because that's exactly what people have been claiming for ages, which is that Holy Spirit is telling them how to understand the hidden message. The result of this approach is 45 000 incompatibile,contradictory renderings of the same text/Bible/Quran/Book of Mormon etc. Then you are confronted with the conundrum: Who, if anybody, has successfully accessed the mind of the so called Creator-Person. Kind regards.

[@peterboos930]

Brilliant show. Bought Amy’s book.

[@rjames4497]

As a Christian I can honestly say the Bible doesn’t say if you are abused as a child you get a pass. It doesn’t say if you are abused as a woman you get a pass. It doesn’t say If you have a tough upbringing you get a pass. It doesn’t even say if you end your life because of depression you get a pass. Admittedly this is a problem and Jon is right for pointing it out.

[@stephengilbreath840]

We look at God sometimes like "why don't you do anything about suffering in the world?!" Sometimes I think God is saying: "I did. I made you."

[@B-Whittyy]

Good conversation.. Love how respectful both sides are. On the point of bringing a child in the world my question would be... if you lived in Uganda and had the foresight to see that your child was going to suffer tremendously and die a horrible death as a 25 year old atheist would you still bring that child into the world?

[@Matira269]

The poor still hope. They also see children as their wealth.

[@oxident-954]

Just a note that Amy's conception of karma, at least from a Buddhist standpoint, is deeply mistaken. Karma is considered a complex naturalistic process, it isn't some form of cosmic justice at all. It is blind and completely indifferent to the individual or concepts of "fairness" and no more just than a materialist account of disease.

[@coffeebreaktheology2634]

If God always felt a need to intervene, we would lose freewill.

[@RobbDepp]

This probably isn't the right platform but Amy looks more amazing than ever. Glad to see her platform growing.

[@gerhardg8101]

Wonder were Amy thinks God is in the suffering caused by the allegations against Ravi's sexual misconduct. After all, she is senior vice president of RZIM. Is it not time to lay the Ravi cult to rest?

[@ironlion805]

It’s interesting the Christians in slums cling closer to God because of their suffering while westerners who only go to visit the slums are sent into an existential crisis when they see it.

[@c.w_]

Agreed This is why James says faith without actions is dead.

[@robertl9812]

Fabulous, absolutely!

[@AndreasJohanns]

As Amy points out, the same word for Adam and Eve's "pain" in Gen 3:16 and 3:17 ("painful toil"), is also the same word for God's "pain" in Gen 6:6 ("his heart was filled with pain"). God remains willingly vulnerable to suffering, because he is committed to costly relationship with his image bearers, but his painful emotion and suffering does not undo him, as human suffering can be decimating to humans (see God's divine pain Hosea 14). As Jon noted, the alternative is Greek stoicism in their notion of deity--an "unmoved mover" in tearless strength. Thankfully, the God of Christianity chose to suffer with, for, and because of his sinful people (Ephesians 2), which is why John sees a "slain lamb" (Revelation 5:6).

[@AndreasJohanns]

@walter - I'm speaking of theological constructs within Orthodox Christianity. You choose deconstruction and snark. If there's no god, then don't even bother commenting on this video, as atheism wasn't even the topic.

[@B.S._Lewis]

@@AndreasJohanns One way to avoid all this painful toil would have been not to create and plant the tree of good and evil in the middle of the garden.

[@marlak1104]

Andreas, brilliant conclusions. Good coherent Scriptural interpretation.

[@CJ-xm5kz]

Has anyone ever considered that maybe just maybe, humans are very egocentric and narcissistic as individuals and as a species and that's why we complain about suffering and ask why we suffer when literally all other creatures on earth go through the same thing. Maybe all of this suffering is just a natural phenomenon that results from being alive as a biological organism and it's really just as simple as that, maybe

[@TheDemolition2000]

Oh of course we weigh and juggle these questions nonstop. Firstly, I can promise you, although it is easy to simply dismiss anything that we can’t see in front of us as being unreal, that a realization of Gods presence and actuality is transcendent, NOT inferiority. It’s an expansion of intellectual awareness and takes work. I was once heavily agnostic, but he opens your eyes when you seek him. Secondly, How do you figure that discrete entities, such as atoms or quarks or strings, which by definition are quantized and distinct from one another, form a “whole” consciousness-a self? To scale up for an analogy: How many billiard balls on a pool table does it take before the “whole group” becomes aware of its surrounding and itself, and can feel? Believing that consciousness can come from the physical is untenable. Of course the collection of billiard balls would never become self aware, it’s impossible, because they are distinct separated bodies, both spatially and in being. Consciousness undeniably requires an immaterial “soul”. The consciousness that we know a priori, and apprehend more strongly than any other fact, as this fact is necessary to know any other fact.

[@aosidh]

Lady, I knew how to love another creature well before I ever saw a dead body. There's no way that suffering is the price of admission to love.

[@thoughtfulpilgrim1521]

Something I hoped would be mentioned but doesn't seem to come up is along the line's of Plantinga's Felix Culpa video/argument regarding the best possible world actually containing suffering rather than without any suffering ever occurring. Also the cultivation of virtues. While love is of course the greatest, things like generosity or courage or compassion seem to necessarily entail the existence of suffering in order to be expressed at all.

[@99Jeep2008]

Loved the discussion!

[@qwaxerty]

I have been asking myself the same question which is whether the goodness and experience of life justify the suffering. The answer is still no.

[@blorkpovud1576]

I don't understand the big deal about love. Some say that it's why we have free will. I don't believe in free will anyway. But if it did exist I'd gladly reject it, plus the love that supposedly relies on it, to forever end gratuitous suffering.

[@stacie1595]

I would really enjoy a conversation between Amy and someone who is well researched and knowledgeable on evolution and evolutionary psychology. She makes a lot of assumptions about evolution that I think should be addressed.

[@user-fj6kk1vo8n]

If Jon shaved off his mohawk, he would automatically be 20 years older.

[@jshauns]

I listened to it twice, did Amy really say it was new to her that Jon was insinuating that the bible was merely a description of life @52:60? That is a common theme of many atheistic speakers. Speaking as a Christian, the Christian faith is 50% victim-blaming. "Life is hard because you're a sinner... faith harder."

[@Xandy2dandY]

That's the Prosperity, Word of Faith false Gospel. They do say if you do this then God will do this for you, most often spouting promises His never made to us. The true Christian faith is about knowing you are not enough and God loves you anyway because of His Son Jesus. Whilst we were still sinners, Christ died for us, this means even at our worst, Jesus still chose to die for us. We can never do enough, we can only do as much as God has given us to do. I hope this helps. There's a verse in the Bible I love to go to when doubts assail me. Lord I believe, help my unbelief. Mark 9:24

[@timisa58]

It is ironic that we are talking about suffering in this world. The finite, inexplicable suffering....at the same time we must remember that this same god, saviour, is willing to burn/torture anyone for eternity for not believing in him. LOVE???? I don't see it. Jesus taking on pain, suffering, etc. Really? Did he (also god) really suffer as much as humans actually do???

[@catherinemoore9534]

'To be or not to be...whether it is worth'...etc...etc... Great suffering cannot be humanly acceptable. But it is our anger, our rage, our despair and our revolt which testifies that we are looking for God, needing God, calling for God. God is a concept born of rebellion against Him. Is God a bully then? Love can also be excruciatingly painful. Is God sadistic then? Out of the darkness must come out a light. That's all we have: words of wisdom, hope and love.

[@donnyh3497]

Oh I know this one! Things which are imaginary can't directly affect the real world!

[@jonnyw82]

We already have the answer to suffering in Job, right? God let’s terrible things happen to us to test our loyalty to Him.

[@brothercaleb]

How amazing… it’s like he doesn’t know “how much” loyalty we have for him. Then the corollary is , isn’t this god all-knowing? Does he not already know how much our loyalty we have for him ? How much testing does he need to eventually reach this loyalty level he seems to require?

[@suheilpinto6964]

How self centered can a religious person be. Its amazing that they don't recogonize it.

[@stephenlacysullivan2463]

Great show 👏 👍

[@janetdavis6473]

Just a question for Jon- how do you know God isn’t stopping tragedy all the time? How many times have you had a “ close call “ , narrowly avoiding a severe accident, calling it lucky when it actually could be God stepping in. I believe this world would be much worse off if God really does step back and allows us free reign. The evil you see lies in man’s heart, you and me included. We are all capable of terrible evil, but chose not to do such.

[@brothercaleb]

That presupposes there’s a god who is stopping “some” tragedy (clearly not ALL tragedies). But what does it say about an “omni-potent” “all-loving caring god”? Just an observation.

[@rl7012]

Good point.

[@martifingers]

Around 18.00 Amy talks about the Christian idea of sanctity of life and the centrality of social justice etc. I would be interested to know if she feels the history of Christian churches and the body of theology and practices they produced provide evidence of that. It seems to me that her conception of people's worth has more to do with Enlightenment and possibly Romantic ideas. Furthermore It would be interesting to look at why those slums and camps both speakers mention and ask how they came about and what ideologies, values and political forces brought them about. I have have no specialist knowledge of this area but it seems striking to me that the issue is framed in terms of moral evil rather than material political forces.

[@brettrobbins]

Justin, your "breaks" killed the flow twice in this video, most egregiously at the 59:30 mark.

[@kimmyswan]

I felt a little disappointed in Jon Steingards response (and lack there of) to Amy’s assertion that without Judeo Christian values we as humans would lack any objective morality. I found Sam Harris’ book “The Moral Landscape” very convincing with regard to objective morality. Also, the fact that he brought up 20th century atrocities in correlation with the decline of Christianity felt like a rookie mistake. An excellent argument refuting this very common assertion used by Christian apologists can be found on the atheist podcast “Counter Apologetics” called: “Atheism and 20th Century Atrocities”.

[@hairyairey]

Not many comments about Grenfell - but the cladding wasn't just to make the buildings look better but for thermal insulation. However unlike Scottish law there is no requirement for such cladding to resist fire. This will hopefully come out as a result of the inquiry. People didn't burn to death because they were poor, it's because shortcuts were made. Obviously that doesn't minimise the tragedy nor would it make it better if a block of luxury flats burnt in the same way.

[@fourteatwo]

I have to say that Amy's suggestion that the cladding was put on to make the tower look nicer for the rich neighbourhood in well in line with the rest of her arguments. Disappointing talk as clearly none of them understands the concept of original sin and suffering. Suffering is the discrepancy between our wishful expectation of reality and observed reality. The stance that there is no God because children starve to death or die of a disease is logically incoherent, as is the expectation that God would not allow suffering to occur if he is all loving. Jon believes in Santa, not God and should grow up (and so do the other two). If you read the story of Jesus you should understand that God in the solution to suffering and our selfishness the cause of it. If they do not get that death is not a punishment by God I wonder what they do understand about the bible. He did not say to Adam and Eve "if you eat from that tree I am going to kill you" but "if you eat from that tree you will surely die" as separating your self from the eternal existence in the father makes you mortal as a logical consequence of that separation as defining your self in the physical body subject to time makes you perishable as well. To live forever is the art to learn to live in Jesus heart

[@greglogan7706]

While I appreciate the lovely sentiments of the young lady, I believe she is not thinking historically. If one is to think historically, it seems the value of human life to other humans was pretty limited. I would suggest that the deeply engrained sentiment she feels is more product actually of secular humanistic development in Western civilization. The core value of secular humanism of course is the great value of human beings - a value not even really seeing in Christianity at least not in the expression found in the Western civilization - as especially demonstrated and expressed in the failure of American evangelicalism in the latter 20th and beginning 21st centuries.

[@JB_Emerson]

Yes. It's not like Christians have been uniquely kind amongst world religions. Plenty of Christians thought the transatlantic slave trade was just fine. Plenty thought the genocide of the indigenous peoples of the Americas was just fine. It's not like there was this large atheistic movement to enslave people and the brave christians were the ones standing up to it.

[@edcroteau3237]

wondering about why not approach the issue of suffering from the standpoint of who we are because of the fall of Adam and Eve... would I not expect suffering in an imperfect world that we created? By definition, would we not need to suffer because we have now the potential to do evil (as well as potential to do good), BUT we are BASICALLY not good? If we did not have the potential to now do bad/evil things, God because of His character, who cannot be in our presence as we are, He MUST suffer in order to undo our wrong?

[@brothercaleb]

That presupposes that there is a Christian god.

[@sdh4557]

The conversation encouraged me. The comments below do not.

[@2Chron-20]

Hebrews 1:1-3 [1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[@donaldmcronald8989]

Trillions and trillions of living creatures that we will never encounter, ripping each other to pieces because a god made things such that it had to be the case.

[@c.w_]

The Bible says that we live in a fallen world because man chose rebellion and independence from God. God’s plan was for us to know and enjoy Him and his creation. However, we due to sin we battle entropy, death and chaos yet we seek a perfect world.

[@MrWholphin]

I agree it isn’t compatible with a good God. The solution is to throw evolutionism into a warm little pond and judge God’s testimony on its own terms rather than through the lens of a naturalistic myth

[@TheFlashfilm]

The difference between the two here is that Jon has been open to all sides and researched the subject extensively, and come to the conclusion that there is no god. Never the less he is still open to being persuaded that there is a god. That is the way to go. Amy on the other hand has made no attempt to grasp the nettle of the serious intellectual problems. She continues to hold fast to the faith that she acquired, probably through indoctrination as a child, which was emotional not intellectual. Same goes for Justin. They refuse to accept that there their beliefs may be false. They are close minded. Instead they try to shore up their beliefs with extremely poor reasoning. For example Jon brings up the issue of Heaven. If Amy suggests that love necessarily requires pain, then of course there is no love in heaven, or indeed free will as christian philosophers such as William Lain Craig have been forced to conclude. How do you deal with that ? Amy states that the 'excuse' people have come up with is that people in heaven have made some conscious commitment while on earth that magically changes things. Incredibly weak argument. What she fails to acknowledge is that for the vast majority of human history most humans died before the age of ten, or heck probably three. And for those that did reach adulthood, their chances of knowing who Jesus was are next to nil. So virtually no humans could make any commitment. These apologetic arguments are shown up for the nonsense they are. Jon, with his softly softly approach and razor sharp intellectual arguments, will lead many to atheism.

[@fourteatwo]

to start with the premise that there is no God because of suffering is a declaration of intellectual bankruptcy. Suffering is caused by the discrepancy between our wishes for reality and our observed reality, e.g. our judgement of what is good and what is bad. To those who define their self in their material body only the death of this body is perceived as the end of their self. To think that a loving God is incompatible with physical death, the event that actually brings us back together as to be no longer separated from him but with him - if we repent and let go of our selfishness - is nothing to do with researching a situation and being open to all sides but an irrational view of reality. The boy sounds like he eventually figured out that Santa does not exist but instead of questioning himself what made him think God to be a big wish fulfilling Santa he concludes that there is no God. And instead of asking God what he himself can do about the situation he asks why God does not wipe the bottoms of those kids instead. He does not fathom that God has put him in a place were he could do something about the situation - after all he had some following with his band, thus would have been able to run some action on this matter - he complains why God does not make everything paradise. Priceless :-). Looks like you expect Santa too.

[@TheFlashfilm]

@@fourteatwo You don't appear to have a grasp on this at all. Suffering does not disprove the existence of a god. It is a problem for Christians, it is not a problem for atheists. It is a real problem for Christians, not because they believe in god, but because they believe in a LOVING god. Suffering is strong evidence that their god is a Sadist. Ignore humans - just consider the extreme pain suffered by animals. The Christian god is evil. That is why Amy and other apologists have to try and explain away this obvious evil. Of course they can't.

[@fourteatwo]

@@TheFlashfilm Suffering is a problem for Atheists as they cannot handle it. That those guys are incapable of holding a logical argument puts them all together into the club of those who are clueless like yourself. They all mistake a loving God with an image of Santa that has to fulfill their wishes. This is forgivable for those naive enough to believe in the existence of such a God, embarrassing for those who try to defend it but even more embarrassing for those who demand it to be so. But then as atheism is a worldview like non stamp collecting is a hobby one should not be suprised by atheist making such demands.

[@marlak1104]

You can’t come to true conclusions without asking questions. Just because they’ve arrived at different conclusions doesn’t mean they haven’t done their research. Obviously Amy is a theologian who is articulate, sensitive, engaged and informed. Jon is questioning, would be wonderful if more professing believers knew why and what they believe instead of mentally disengaging and going with the cultural status quo.

[@alexlarsen6413]

Empathy isn't pity as she's saying, it's the ability to put yourself in another being's position, see the world through their eyes and feel the way they do. Doesn't even have to be empathy for human beings, we feel empathy towards others animals too. Every social species has this ability to empathize to some level, as well as the innate sense of justice. It's literally been demonstrated with chimpanzees, other primates...etc. He made an excellent point about it being dependent on how connected we are to the situation as well. That being said, we're also pretty damn tribal too. The Germans were Christians even as Nazis, they just thought God was on their side. And the British were Christians thinking God is on their side even as they were firebombing German cities knowing full well they were killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, children included. Or while engaging in slave trade and running their empire as tho they were superior to the natives. The Belgians were Christians as they were committing genocide in the Congo. Everyone was Christian in WW1. These arguments of hers are almost insulting to any intelligent person.

[@janwaska521]

“The Germans were Christians while being Nazis” They weren’t Christians at all. Just nominally, like many “Christians” are today. Claiming to be a NASA astronaut doesn’t make me one of them. Christians are not Christ’s fans, but His true followers. Sophie Scholl wasn’t misled by the Nazi indoctrination propaganda machine. It’s easy to claim being Christian when it’s popular, but not when it means being repressed and humiliated.

[@1000whispering]

"We dont have a God who presses the reset button"..... erm... The flood?

[@jonfromtheuk467]

yes and lets not forget, in the flood god killed people all over the world, including babies in their mothers wombs who had even heard the word, let alone disobey it.

[@MrWholphin]

@@jonfromtheuk467 yep and God judges based on what people know and what they’ve done so innocents, unborn and infants were not accountable for their parents and get their chance to be redeemed however God chooses to do that

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@MrWholphin you have lost all your human moral compass, you are actually prepared to excuse the killing of babies IN THEIR MOTHERS WOMBS in far flung countries who havent had the choice to even LEARN the word of God before He casually drowned them in an instant with mothers and fathers vainly holding on to their children ...........FFS. Whats wrong with you man? cant you take your bible goggles off for a second and smell the coffee?I utterly despair. Pete, look at yourself at the mirror...........seriously ........... and ask yourself if this is justifiable in anyones morality let alone an all loving Deity?

[@R3DASH09]

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. JESUS

[@CJ-xm5kz]

You say that choice is integral to love yet God Himself supposedly has an absolutely, perfectly loving nature which would mean that He doesn't have a choice as to whether or not He gets to love humans, so that would mean that God's love of humans is meaningless.

[@robdavis9643]

God made His choice by creating us for relationship with Him, we make our choice in whether we reciprocate a relationship with God. Both require a choice.

[@B.S._Lewis]

Evil is not required for free will choice. Adam and Eve were free to choose from any tree in the garden. Putting the poisonous tree in the middle of the garden was reckless for a being who knows the future. My struggle is how to view that as a loving act.

[@CJ-xm5kz]

@Simon Wood Fair point in making the distinction between what to love and having a loving nature but the point still stands that even if God chose to create and love us when He didn't need to create us for a loving relationship, He still has no choice but to love us. He can't hate us, so I don't see how a relationship with God is meaningful if He can't choose to not love humans

[@CJ-xm5kz]

@@robdavis9643 Again as with the previous poster, just because God chose to create us for a loving relationship doesn't mean that He has a choice as to whether or not He loves humans. He's still forced to love humans because of His perfectly loving nature and thus the relationship isn't meaningful since He has no free will in that regard.

[@CJ-xm5kz]

@@B.S._Lewis Exactly, God Himself can't commit evil and can only do good yet Christians believe that He has free will

[@greyback4718]

34:32 i hit my face so hard when she said that, how delusional can you be? I am sorry it's just so ridiculous I have to check again if she said that. Maybe somebody explain to me what she said coz I can't believe it , not being cruel to others is Christian or theist invention wtf

[@kevinrtres]

Perhaps you should also consider the thought @35:40 : Is there an objective standard for morality if there is no God? Or is it the case that without God anything goes - hence no matter how much cruelty or evil exists in the world, it's all OK. Which of course brings us full circle back to the whole idea - where is this supposed God, given all the evil, pain and suffering we see around us? A very nice excuse if you don't WANT to believe in God.

[@robinl6659]

Greyback 🙄

[@greyback4718]

​@@kevinrtres well I know she made that point and i am not talking about it, I just can't believe someone would say something so delusional. And I am referring to that sentence, quote her words exactly "" before christian morality the idea of not being cruel to someone else just wasn't around, the desire to not be cruel is a sort of heritage of theistic you know christian and jewish inheritance ..... "" the fact that Jon said that he agree with pretty much everything she said made me think he is fake or didn't catch it. Jhon time when he agree is 36:50

[@robdavis9643]

@@greyback4718 You are right and she even seemed to lack confidence when saying that, nevertheless most of what she shared was amazing but sometimes the Church leaders as she is a Pastors wife can be a bit blinded and not understand that those outside of the Church also know and understand both cruelty and Love as well as God gives understanding of Love and wisdom to all who seek it whether you are in a Church or not.

[@marlak1104]

I think she was summing up what John Gray said. Continuing listening for her conclusions.

[@JB_Emerson]

I'm having a hard time with a lot of what Amy is saying. to say that we have no evolutionary reason to care about people we don't know doesn't seem right. we're HIGHLY social and our sense of empathy is capable of quite a lot. Me thinking about the kids in africa makes me bummed. But if I saw one of those kids? I might have a complete emotional panic. And how can she say that compassion and not being cruel is a uniquely biblical idea? She's telling me that not a single society in the entire history of humanity thought cruelty wasn't a great idea? Also, there are plenty of Christians who looked at african children and devised all sorts of unimaginably cruel ways to treat them. God does not stop his own people from evil, apparently. While nazi Germany was marching through Europe, Britain had colonized a large chunk of the world, causing untold damage to people on every continent. How can they look at themselves as uniquely good in that situation? Churchill let millions of people in Bangladesh starve to death, for crying out loud. Anyway, that's what's going through my mind as I watch this.

[@newcovenantguy610]

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” 1 John 2:19

[@annescholl420]

This is where we have the opportunity to show grace and mercy ! ✝️🙏✝️

[@aosidh]

Actual footage of John inventing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy before Scotland existed

[@newcovenantguy610]

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.“ Jesus, Luke 8:13

[@TheWorldsStage]

This episode is brought to you by blonde hair dye. Blonde hair with dark roots is just one bottle away with blonde hair dye.

[@inesgomezontiveros2227]

Dear Jon , you do not have to believe in God if you doubt. Belief is exactly the opossite.

[@inesgomezontiveros2227]

Shalom! If you believe in God you do not doubt. Hebrews 11:1

[@cygnusustus]

It takes true arrogance to claim credit for coming up with the idea of being nice to people.

[@zonda1968]

If you need free will to have love. So before Adam and Eve eat the fruit did they have love and free will?

[@patdainel9037]

So which is it? Amy, or Ewing? I’m confused

[@jennifer97363]

The oft heard apologetic response to questions about suffering,essentially: the word of god is inerrant, we cannot question him, he alone knows the reasons why, god is certainly above our concept of immorality, god is good, god loves us- is reprehensible. Utterly reprehensible for a supposedly moral human being to ever so boldly state. Full stop. Think~for~yourself. Is your fear of the finality of death/ existence on earth is all there is,so strong that you rationalize worshipping such a monster? It is nonsense.

[@Lightylight]

If “100 percent” was the percentage of all of the knowledge in the entire universe from the beginning of time then we would have to admit that we only possess 0.1 percent of all knowledge. So then why would we question an all knowing God with our limited knowledge? Jon’s doubts existed before he went to Uganda and the sadness he witnessed only fueled his preconception. What he fails to realize is that he is now abandoning any hope for these people by denying Heaven or the work of the gospel within their eternity. This life is so very short in comparison to the eternity to come.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

I didnt feel Amy really answered the question and she got the evolutionary point completely wrong in that its still good to help someone who cant help you back - therefore that proves God? Re Grenfell what she did was claim how we, as humans come together after tragedy but that completely ignores why God let it happen in the first place but sure , having some kind of communal sharing of grief can be very moving and cathartic, but that doesn't mean God is there does it? Everything she said was just humans doing their best to understand terrible events or situations and that is apparent no matter what stripe of Deity you believe in. Q. Why do good things happen to bad people?

[@wolves201]

But but...surely her point was that there is something inherent in human beings that seeks to help people in suffering. This is not prevalent in the animal kingdom. Where does this empathy, desire to help come from? How did it evolve? Why do humans want justice? Of course, if there is no god then there is absolutely no point in discussing suffering or evil or why people do what they do. The whole therapy industry is redundant. Life is just a random chance of events and there is no reason to it. In this case, perhaps Jon is right. Rejecting God or any notion of a superior creator is the best way to explain suffering. I just find it odd that people find suffering the go to reason to reject God but they never find good and goodness a reason to believe.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@wolves201 Not sure you are correct that altruism isnt found in the animal kingdom. Dolphins will protect humans from sharks, and birds can feed fish. Empathy and requiring justice are indeed complicated but both are also both found in the animal kingdom. Evolutionary wise it makes sense to help a stranger as as a species you never know when you may be able to help another person who you have no connection with but your memory of the help you yourself received could trigger an impulse. Its harder with the animal kingdom to always have an answer. Why if there is no God should we not discuss suffering or evil? - I can never understand this logic. We should discuss how to make a better just society and reduce pain. Worse still , its the utterly baffling concept if there is no God then life is somehow meaningless? Sure there may be some random elements but surely life it what we make of it? We make decisions and that affects the direction. But for me , the idea that there is seemingly no afterlife means that I should consider everyday as my last - to try and be happy and make others happy as well. To love my family and friends and anybody else I can along the way. Simply put I have everything to live for and nothing to die for. Speaking personally I just think the problem of evil is just one component of why I am not convinced God exist but there are a series of them and cumaltively they make we doubt the all loving God we have been sold for Millenia.

[@blorkpovud1576]

@@jonfromtheuk467 exactly. I'm tired of the notion that a sense of justice in one form or another is strictly restricted to homo sapiens. It may be KEENER in our species, but it's not completely non-existent in others 🤦‍♂️

[@1000whispering]

If God perfects Christians and they live for eternity on a new earth. And no suffering will exist, yet love will. Then what was the point of this universe? And if its about choice, no one would choose hell over heaven if they were given he choice prior to being created a being.

[@1000whispering]

@Trolltician his dismissal of the choice is that he didnt believe it existed. Knowing without any doubt heaven and hell are real, and being offered choice of endless happiness or endless suffering, no one would choose the latter.

[@1000whispering]

@Trolltician yes he may have said it. But he would not go through with it of shown a big door to a place of happiness and another which is just a massive fire. No one would throw themselves into fire in that circumstance.

[@1000whispering]

@Trolltician i am fully aware of your user name. But i think its plainly obvious. Fire or no fire. End of. (Answering for the sake of readers)

[@oliverwinks168]

I genuinely don't get this Christian idea that people are "sacred" because they are made in the image of God. So what? Why would that matter at all? If that's true then Humans are only "sacred" because God happens to like them. If he didn't like a person, like Esau, then that person would litereally have no worth, anything could happen to them and it would have no moral bearing at all! I much prefer the idea (and it feels so much more natural to me) that people have moral worth because they share something deep in common with me. They are another being that understands what it is to be human, they feel what I feel, they suffer in the same way, they think and love in the same way. This is something that not even God (if he exists, which I doubt) could understand. He's not Human, he's not in our position, he can't possibly put himself in our position (and no, the life of Jesus doesn't count) because there is no God above Yahweh, he can't truly experience Human existence because he would have to invent a more powerful God that he must worship in order to experience Human existence.

[@TheMirabillis]

The deeper problem of Suffering is Hell. The majority of Christianity believes in Eternal Conscious Bliss for the saved with God and Eternal Conscious Torment for the unsaved in Hell. If God truly loved every single person then He would not sit upon His Throne and watch the majority of His creation ( which is unsaved ) suffer and burn in torment for all of Eternity Future. Hell is not a demonstration of love and justice but one of extreme cruelty. No morally perfect and all loving God would ever create a creature whom He knew would suffer forever and ever in a Hell.

[@DM-dk7js]

I think the easiest and most straight forward answer is simply that god does not exist...that's why suffering exists. Or he simply doesn't care.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

I'd also say it is the least sufficient answer and lacking. Here's a better answer: If we are given true free will, meaning the ability to make independent decisions, then we can REALLY choose utilize that ability for good or evil. So if God gives us free will because he desires for us to love him out of our own choice, then it obviously follows that if we can do good, we can also do evil. If he intervenes in every situation to stop people's free will decisions, then he wouldn't be allowing true free will to occur which means that true love could never occur. Why don't we stop pointing at God for evil and point at each other. Then change and love the type of lives that God desires.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

@Scott Scotty I refer you, as well as anyone else reading this, to my response on the other comment thread. Created gods have 0 evidence. The metaphyscially necessary God that Christians believe in DOES have evidence. I refer you to the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[@imabeliever85]

How do you know that those are the only two alternatives?

[@ronaldmendonca6636]

@@SailingTheologicalSeas That may be one answer of many. But, it still holds true that the SIMPLEST answer is that there is no god.

[@SailingTheologicalSeas]

@@ronaldmendonca6636 not a reasonable response but sure. To say he doesn't exist has so many further issues beyond suffering that it truly isn't even an option. But if we are spouting nonsense for the sake of making a "simple" answer then okay

[@jacktraxler537]

Min 37-38 my man listens to Jordan Peterson!

[@billybradford]

Her claim that humans were not "kind" to each other, or did not care for each other until the cult of Christianity was formed is absolute nonsense. To make that claim with nothing to back it up is just terrible. You can look at Japan today, where they are roughly 90% non-religious with only a tiny fraction of people embracing the Christian cult. Are they kind to each other? Of course they are.

[@donniebrasco7243]

preach it brother. Completely agree.

[@MathiasMNielsen]

The Japanese before World War 2 had a terrifying culture. Without the heavy interference from America in their politics and school system etc, who knows what a prideful and dangerous land it would be? They might show kindness today, but it wasn't without cost and coinsidence or not it was a Christian nation that did the job. Had China been involved instead how do you imagine it would look in Japan today?

[@chindi17]

I will have to relisten. I do not think Amy was saying prior to Christianity people did not take care of each other. If she said that i disagree as one that is exposed to many African traditions of kindness. As a person who grew up in Africa, it is insulting to be told before Christianity my culture was this place that had no morals and did not hold dignity for a human being. I love my fellow Christians but let's be careful with those sort of statements. I am a Christian but i don't believe we have a monopoly on morality nor morality comes from Christian values. I believe that's complex and bit of nuancy here is helpful. In African tradition there is a culture of hospitality to strangers. This hospitality was usually exploited during colonization. I won't go into too much detail about how the Germans who were supposed to have had Christian values acted towards the Herrero peoples in Namibia during the rebellion in the early 1900s, while the Hereros who were traditionalist had rules of engagement that forbid killing of women and children, the Germans had none of that. This was indeed a genocide and one is welcome to google and research it. It is stories like this that caused my great grandma to completely reject Christianity and i totally understand that. Where morals come from is very difficult. I have tried to say God but then i run into the Euryphro dilemma. Thus, i will say i don't know where moral values come from but i am open to learn. I think Amy was asking a very sound question when she said why care if we are just atoms and chemicals ( i am paraphrasing) though?

[@donniebrasco7243]

@@MathiasMNielsen what is your opinion of the current right wing, Trump supporting bible believing Jesus is Lord christian in America?

[@MathiasMNielsen]

​@@donniebrasco7243 I think there's a big dilemma in American politics. Vote democrat and you indirectly support the abortion of what I call unborn children and other values that's incompatible with Christianity and truth. Vote Republican and you vote for values that you share in common, but you also let a very unstable person hold office. I don't support most of what Trump is saying or does. It seems rather complicated as to who I would support. You guys need a revolution or something, a bigger party system, a complete overhaul from bottom to top.

[@normaodenthal8009]

Submit to Being absolutely nails it. Ditch the small god and embrace Being, because that is what God is; not a being, but Being itself.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

more assertions - not even bad evidence has been presented.

[@normaodenthal8009]

jon fromtheUK There was ample evidence in the clip, but there will never be enough evidence since God is not an object that can be subjected to any scientific experiment, any more than you can determine evidence for love. Like Being, it can only be experienced and known directly. So you could say the same about love. It doesn’t exist; it’s just another assertion without evidence, unless it has been experienced.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@normaodenthal8009 Oh dear ......you just made my exact point for me - yet MORE assertions, this time its the evidence was in the video yet fail to point out what that is? ....... and secondly that god cant be subject to any measuring or empirical evidence because its not physical? Well my ( well actually Matt Dillahunty's ) response to that is that "any God that doesnt manifest in any detectable way, is indistinguishable from one that doesnt exist" and secondly Gravity is not an object yet it can, yes CAN be subject to scientific experiments. How about this, try walking off your roof and see if Gravity exist?

[@normaodenthal8009]

jon fromtheUK God does manifest in the world, but still can’t be measured, because you are merely measuring objects God is not gravity either. God is not an object that can be empirically measured. God can only be experienced on the inside. God is love, and given your recommendation to take a flying leap off the roof, it is abundantly clear why you find no evidence of God anywhere. The only way to know God is through love, and by becoming more loving. Just being kind would be a good start.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

​@@normaodenthal8009 ha! thats like saying I have an invisible pet dragon in my garage but you cant see him unless you really believe its there. Sorry but here is no other word for it - gullibility. You have been conditioned to believe this stuff because of, normally, the culture and geographic position in the world you were bought up in. If you had been born in India it would have been Vishnu, Pakistan it would be Allah is love and you have to experience them...... You basically go to Hebrews11:1 where is says you have to believe on no evidence , or worse still in the face of contradictory evidence , and still believe. Dont investigate , the book has ALL the answers. Seek and ye shall find etc Well yes, we are pattern seeking animals and we sadly prefer a junk theory than no theory at all. Its just Sooooo convenient isnt it that God cant measured in any way shape or form? ........its almost like he doesnt exist. Lastly how do you know God is love? If we take the bible as an accurate description of his character that is patently not true. Killed everyone except a 600 year old drunk? Killed babies in their mothers wombs? rejoiced as children heads were dashed across the rocks? killed 42 children for mocking Elishas bald head by sending two bears to maul them? He is racist and homophobic. Turns lots wife into a pillar of salt, and instructs people to kill everyone in town except for the young girls naturally for reasons best left un-described. You and I are more moral and loving than the God you worship you keep making excuses for him, not that he seems to exist anyhow.

[@2Chron-20]

Also, faith is a gift from God. We do not chooses to believe, God chooses us. Jesus said you have not chosen me but I have chosen you, that ye should bear fruit... ye are saved by grace, through faith and that not of yourself, it is the GIFT 🎁 of God. Maybe John steinberg you should pray for the gift of faith.... ask and it shall be given you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.

[@AndreaBeck123]

Where's the proof Jesus really said that?

[@2Chron-20]

@@AndreaBeck123 No proof shall be given you except the preaching of the death and resurrection of Christ. Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes shall be saved. He that believes not shall be damned.

[@greglogan7706]

She seems to be making a big deal about the simple very base and are understandable sentiment of human beings to feel a need for revenge... And she somehow is trying to sanctify and ornament a basic human sentiment... as a reason for faith in the creator. This is sort of disgusting...😖

[@blorkpovud1576]

Oh the part about evildoers getting a comeuppance? Yes I didn't find that convincing.

[@bakhop]

I wish the young man had chosen a different spiritual mentor that C.S. Lewis, who ultimately also lost his religion due to suffering a loss. I keep listening to non-Catholic theorists and they can't really go the distance to the deep suffering that life is and truly get all that Jesus brought and experience all the redemptive power. I don't think this is bias because I truly want to learn from those sources, but they just always miss the point in some important ways.

[@bonnie43uk]

Here's a question to honest Christians: Did God have any say in what is written in the Bible? ( did he oversee it's conception and progression into what we have today, eg the King James Version etc?) Does he agree with what is written in his Holy book, and could he make any improvements if he deemed it necessary?

[@jshauns]

Not a single human alive can answer this question with any authority.

[@jholts6912]

It's a difficult question to answer. I'd reccomend looking for a biblical scholar to help in that. However, from my point of view, He did. God likely actualized those persons who He knew would freely write what He wanted in the Bible under guidance from the Holy Spirit. Though the Bible is written by man it is inspired by God and the men who wrote it God created because He knew what they would FREELY write

[@jholts6912]

I suppose He could make improvements but it's likely that would do more harm than good

[@bonnie43uk]

@@jholts6912 Thanks for that J, I'm looking at that question from the perspective of a non believer. As I see it, there is no way a loving God would include such a phrase as "suffer ye not a witch to live" knowing that countless thousands of innocent men and mainly women would be burnt alive for being suspected of witchcraft. Also, when writing a list of 10 commandments, surely you'd include things like "Thou shalt not rape, or Thou shalt not inflict severe torture upon thy fellow man" Also, think of all the things Jesus could have been explicitly clear and unambiguous on.. things like homosexuality, abortion, rascim, slavery... esp knowing what happened to literally millions of black people from Africa. It's inconceivable to me that an all-knowing all-loving God could not have ensured that his Holy book wasn't clear and incontrovertible to any rational human being. As you rightly say, it's a difficult question, .. unless you look at it from the perspective that God did not have any say in the matter and that it was in fact written by mankind. Then it makes perfect sense that it's a hotch potch of lots of different writers/authors, ..all men.

[@fourteatwo]

@@bonnie43uk The Code of Hammurabi, an 18th century B.C.E. Babylonian code of law from Mesopotamia, placed a death sentence on anyone who used magic to harm another: “If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.” similar in Deuteronomy 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, practices divination or conjury, interprets omens, practices sorcery, refers to the same issue as such practices placed an existential threat on the survival of their tribes. The witch hunts on medieval times were based on people reinforcing their authority and the problem with scripture is like with anything that its meaning can be distorted by humans to suit their own agenda. This is why the bible warns of the problem of false teachers all the time, suggesting one should apply critical thinking to what you see. When it comes to issues like slavery you will b pleased to know that the slavery you detest of was actually also under the death penalty in the bible. And Jesus was also explicit on his stance on homosexuality as well as heterosexuality as he declared both of them an abomination as the practice of copulation for personal gratification instead of responsible procreation is clearly an act of selfishness and not in the interest of creation. If someone needs that spelled out in more detail they fail in the critical thinking department. Clearly a "rational" human being should have no problem with the bible. The problem are the irrational human beings, but to them no form of communication will succeed.

[@maisy7926]

Why is Jon feeling the need to go round and have as many interviews as he can, to tell people that he no longer has belief in God ???

[@robcrochet2025]

I think a lot of people have asked him for interviews on this topic, because he was a very public Christian figure who is willing to talk about his deconstruction.

[@2Chron-20]

Jesus himself said blessed are the POOR in spirit for there’s is the kingdom of God... blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted.... In contrast, he said woe unto the rich for they have already received their consolation.... how hardly those who have riches shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Easier for a camel to go through eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In conclusion, Jesus said in to time to come, the poor and suffering would receive comfort where as the rich had already had their reward... Will not the judge of the whole earth do right???

[@robdavis9643]

Very true, it is in the tough times that we truly find Gods Kingdom. In the good times we need to beware less we lose our reward which is His Kingdom both here and in the next age. We should embrace hardship as tough as it is.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

So what you are saying that even if you are the most pious and empathetic human on the planet but are rich, you cant get into heaven and bad things/woe will happen to you as you have had a comfortably life? .......what nonsense you write. If a God puts someone into an eternal lake of fire for simply being wealthy then he isnt worth my worship and I would furthermore be more moral than that God. If the average serial child rapist who has spent his whole life creating utter misery and murder, with please note, God's full pre knowledge that each rape will happen as he is omniscient, and presumably is watching on with folded arms, but he can come to Jesus just before execution and can then spend bliss in heaven but someone who inherits family wealth is doomed to a lake of fire for eternity, then again that is a sick doctrine that any moral agent would see as disgusting and reject it. Do you?

[@robdavis9643]

@@jonfromtheuk467 unfortunately wealth easily blinds people from Gods deeper truths. Not Gods fault that people choose wealth first and God second if at all. You choose to live life on earth and life eternally either with God or without Him but you choose that path on earth. That's your choice but don't blame God for your choice. The last thing a hate filled person would want is to spend eternity with loving people all around therefore such a person would prefer eternity around others of like mind as they also spend their time on earth with others of like mind but in eternity both hate and love is magnified therefore the depictions of hell & heaven.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@robdavis9643 I dont blame God for my choices because I dont believe such an entity exist, and even if it were true that he was, if his character is as described in the Bible, is accurate I wouldnt worship him as I would be more moral than him.

[@robdavis9643]

@@jonfromtheuk467 Everyone has something that is god in there life whether religion, money, work or whatever however it seems that your god is yourself. Good luck with that I actually do want the best for you but I don't understand why you spend so much time trying to belittle other peoples choice of god. Live a life trying to allow Love to work in you as this is what most genuine people who say they are followers of God try to achieve. If you can achieve that with your own morality than good on you but for most people in this world we have found God as Love and therefore morality in God. Jesus so Loved the world that He laid down His life for us. You don't have to believe this and that's fine but I struggle to believe that your morality/love is greater than Christs. We are all different but you'll enjoy life much more if you try to find out what we have in common rather than waste your time trolling others who have a different view than you.

[@spurzo-thespiralspacewolf8916]

Submit to Being! I like that

[@jonfromtheuk467]

seriously in 2020 we are saying that Adam and Eve literally existed? Really?

[@RAFAEL27769]

Evolutionary scientists, acknowledge that all modern humans, regardless of ethnicity or geographic location descend from a single man and woman.

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@RAFAEL27769 citation required if you are going to make that claim. Peer reviewed papers would be nice

[@robdavis9643]

And you have a more believable theory?

[@jonfromtheuk467]

@@robdavis9643 well first of all I dont have to because in logic, the person that makes the POSITIVE claim has the burden of proof , so in this case @השראה is making the claim. Secondly I'm not an evolutionary biologist so am not qualified to provide alternative hypothesis however , I have read up some and I found nothing to think that there was an Adam made out of dust and and an Eve, made out of one of his ribs, who has a lucid conversation with a serpent who has neither vocal cords to speak nor ears to hear the replies. BTW - the serpent in this obvious fable was the one that told the truth - God said if they ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil "they shall clearly die" but they went on into their 900's ( snigger) Also , whilst I am here , God is omniscient and knew in advance with 100% certainty that she would eat the fruit , and he engineered the tree to be there in the first place so he was culpable and therefore the whole sin element is mute.

[@robdavis9643]

@@jonfromtheuk467 Normally the most obvious answer is usually the correct one hence humans come from humans is not so crazy and that these humans did not come from nothing but from a creative omniscient creator God is also very logical. Scientifically we know that intelligent matter exists. Mathematically it is statistically impossible for this intelligent matter to come about by accident. Therefore it is logical to believe in an eternal creator God. It may seem crazy that a serpent spoke to Eve but in a creation where all things are good such as the Garden of Eden and eternity as well perhaps we can all communicate through thought also with animals. Artificial intelligence will also likely make this possible on earth in the near future if mankind sticks around much longer so why couldn't God do this also.

[@1000whispering]

I think Jon did a good job of offering an evolutionary explanation, in brief. Im not sure i can stomach Amys claim that the idea of not being cruel to others came through Judaism and Christianity. Also its worth noting that oridanry Germans, Chinese and Russians would have been aghast at the atrocities of their govts, but powerless to change their circumstances. For example the Nazis assumed power and Hitler and his circle enforced a authoritarian and genocidal system of power, by force and secret service. If a true and open democracy was enacted mid ww2 i dont believe the nazis would have won the election if all the atrocities were openly discussed in a free media.

[@1000whispering]

@Trolltician is it? Ill have to look into that point. You could be correct. However, going back from the great civillisations, prior to egypt etc. Do we think this caste system keeps going back. That caste system must have started somewhere. Also, isnt there a caste system in the old testament. Ie slaves from foreigners can be kept for life and their children. And only the Levi tribe can make sacrifices.

[@smithblack7939]

@RichardLees "evolutionary explanation" is also a religious belief.

[@1000whispering]

@@smithblack7939 no it is not. It requires no supernatural involvement or a deity. And is a purely natural development.

[@kevinrtres]

@@1000whispering I think you might want to re-evaluate that thought, Richard. I believe that whatever gives rise to existence and life is your god, no matter how it came about. If that is what you believe, then that is also how you will live and what you will expect to happen in future. As for evolution - it's not just the darwinian biological issue - it's the whole story of origins - right from the big bang onwards. IT's got issues in it that have to be taken on pure blind faith - given that no science is possible with unrepeatable past events. That pure blind faith predicates a RELIGIOUS belief. Firstly the big bang postulates that everything came from nothing - which we know is impossible. To believe that you have to trust in absolute blind faith - there is no substance to it and you cannot go about showing how it can happen. No one can. Inherent in that theory of the big bang is the inflationary period where space and matter accelerate to speeds greater than the speed of light (supernaturally) and then again decelerates down to speeds less that the speed of light ( again, supernaturally, i.e. no known physical means exist to enact it) Secondly, stars can not form all by themselves from clouds of gas - in order to do so they would have to overcome the Jeans Mass limit. THis is very well known in physics and in all the simulations of star formation people just make the assumption that somehow it happens - it doesn't. Never been observed. Which is precisely why they now invented Dark Matter and Dark Energy to help overcome this very vexing problem. Yes, they have observed an unexplained acceleration of star bodies and have come to the Dark Matter conclusion, but they then make the leap of faith and apply it with just the right parameters to enable star-self-birth. There you go - using SUPERNATURAL, non-observed and unconfirmed entities to make their model work. Thirdly, planets can not form from clouds of dust all by themselves either. The normal physics just don't work. So the simulations again have to assume that it does. Somehow. Supernaturally. Fourthly - life cannot come from non-living material spontaneously all by itself - it has NEVER been observed to happen. Hence, once again - people have to assume that it does. After all, if there is no intelligent, all powerful agent to make it so, then the only explanation left is that life just kick-started it self into existence - SUPERNATURALLY! (Watch James Tour deal with the issue surrounding the chemistry involved in abiogenesis - it's all pure science - James Tour - the mystery of the origin of life on KZbin) Fifthly - the same issues that bedevil abiogenesis also bludgeon evolution - the inability to explain the mechanism that gives rise to the new functional units required for much more complex body forms. You can claim it's natural but you cannot show how it can happen except by invoking supernatural means......!!!!! Pure blind faith!

[@1000whispering]

@@kevinrtres i was reffering solely to biological evolution. The repeatable element is that predictions have been made and verefied as to biological developments. For one. The big bang does not postulate that everything came from nothing. That is a false merger of creation from nothing and the big bang model. Its possible there has always eternally been existance of something, which is what i believe without evidence, but not resolutely. The imflation of the universe continues to expand faster than the speed of light and is still accelerating. Abiogenesis is not understood very well at all, nevertheless you may have seen there is now a good probability that microorgansims live in Venus atmosphere, which would suggest, if true, that life had stared twice in one solar system. Therefore more likely to have occured elsewhere. I am only laying out my understanding as far as i am aware. But if a God created this universe and life on earth, then very well. In fact i would comfortably refer to the creation of our universe as being by a God, in the loosest of terms, a power and existance beyond out comprehension. But to direct that cosmic grandiose image to a local deity of the 1st millenium BCE then that is where i will part ways at the first port of call. If you won't accept biological evolution or a material beginning of life on earth, or that a local deity did not in fact cause the cosmic inflation, then i will defer you to your own thoughts about it. Ultimately i am quite assured you will likely never change your mind. I have twice, i was a deist in my teens, a christian until 26 and now an agnostic atheist. But i will likely never change again. Fortunately the science i accept is mainstream. And unfortunately yours is divided by young earth, old earth creationists and theistic evolutionists. And none of these have made any great affect on the scientific community since early 19th century.

[@hexa1905]

16:18 it does evolutionary benefit you. this still improve the gene pull of humanity, including the 99.9% DNA you have in commun that's a part of group selection. you do not need the have biological kids to pass on your DNA.

[@hexa1905]

33:39 lol she know nothing about evolution but restate that as a fact x'D

[@zeenohaquo7970]

They are laughing their a.s..s off.

[@lorraine5800]

Answer: God is IN the suffering

[@leelandmooring9563]

Best answer in the comments and to this question of suffering. God condescending and putting Himself inside of human suffering.

[@lorraine5800]

@@leelandmooring9563 thanks Leeland, exactly! It's such a subtle but significant point.

[@gerhardg8101]

God is with those who suffer when they let him in. Suffering is the result of the discrepancy between our expectation of reality and reality. If you subject yourself to God that discrepancy dissolves.

[@1000whispering]

Did women choose who they married in the bible?

[@smithblack7939]

Well...you tell me a girl of 12-14 years knows better than his parents ( mach more experienced and wiser) who to choose? 🤣🤣🤣

[@kevinrtres]

By this do you imply forced marriage as Amy mentioned? Let's skip to a much larger picture - How would you love and get to marry someone who hated you, want you out of their life, be willing to kill you? That's basically what you're asking isn't it? Now that is precisely what God has done to reconcile human beings to Himself - He has chosen to love His enemies, those who revile Him, reject Him, hate Him. He chose to love them with an everlasting love. God made a divine choice. Does that justify arranged or forced marriages? Not necessarily. However, there are some very valid reasons for accepting arranged marriages. I have personally witnessed a guy from India (that I worked with) in the US, falling in love with another beautiful colleague of Indian descent, except she wasn't interested. So over time he started pining away and getting miserable and objecting terribly at his arranged marriage - he was in love with this colleague of ours. Then the day arrived and he got married to his arranged bride. Lo and behold - she turned out to be not just beautiful, she was also far more suited to his character and personality than our colleague could ever have been. He was ecstatic and his whole life changed around in the space of a month. His parents knew him far better than he knew himself. I'm not saying it always works out like that, but it just goes to show - there are valid reasons for having an arranged marriage as can also be seen in the bible.

[@smithblack7939]

@@kevinrtres hollywood movies/then tv /internet= brainwashed many generations with a perverted ideea of love. We see today the effect: no marriages just "live together", the few married became 50% divorced , pornography, many sexual partners but... finally not "forced" marriages. Everybody is happy... not. You can't call it forced marriage when your parents who love you( there are few exceptions of course) and want for you best partner and best life . A woman/man with multiple sexual partners will never be a good wife/husband . Exactly that happens and is encouraged now...Questions for one million dollars:why? 🤔

[@1000whispering]

@@kevinrtres okay thanks for upholding the virtues of arranged marriage. I am pleased you remain consistant with the old testament. I would love more Christian apologists to use your example.

[@1000whispering]

@@smithblack7939 do you think arranged marriages are acceptable? Or are you just suggesting that none arragenged marraiges often lead to break up and divorce and therefore your suggesting people appreciate their ability to choose more wisely.

[@iandavidson1]

It is a natural thing, there is not a choice to be made

[@kevinrtres]

Wonrg! There is indeed a choice available! Get convinced of God's existence ( start by watching James Tour on the Mystery of the origin of life - here on KZbin) then repent of your sins ( you have lied, stolen, used God's name in vain, committed idolatry, dishonored your parents, committed adultery - Jesus said whoever looks with lust on a woman has committed adultery already in his heart - etc.) and put yuor trust in the righteousness that Jesus wrought on the cross for sinners. Do not trust your good deeds to save you - it cannot.

[@margaretbarrett6087]

kevin ruiters I have repented - repented of the years I wasted worshipping your barbaric, bloodthirsty biblical deity; and I am now saved - saved from the shackles of crazy and abhorrent christian doctrine.

[@NelsonAerial]

Just on the possibility that you, Jon, might read my brief comment, I would ask you to consider this; God is the only Perfect Being. God cannot violate His Nature. God cannot create another God. God created us, this world, very good But Not perfect. Due to the imperfection of Gods creation, He Knew and ordained our condition of imperfection, and designed a method to give us perfection through Himself, thru Jesus Christ. The Gospel is that method. Beauty, Logic, Hope, Love, Music, and consciousness itself provide the basis for Faith. Not as a condemnation but as a plea in Love, Repent from rationalism. Trust in Christ. Read CS Lewis’ book, The Problem of Pain. Come to Christ. Ask God for the gift of Repentance.

[@charliebonifacio2587]

Hiddenness and Nature. Both aspects of what we define as "God" that need to be looked at VERY carefully. I'm not sure "all knowing, all loving, all powerful, omnipotent God" is actually scriptural. AND based on John 1:18, our Christian scripture says we are directed to see God in a completely different way, in how Jesus REVEALS him. I've also heard the argument that "if God is (all of the above descriptors), why didn't he create a reality where there was no suffering? But no one ever describes that world. To me, it is a world of theory, not actuality. Creation is actual, physical and has given rise to all the "rules" we've discovered about it. Time. Space. Energy. Matter. This is a world of specificity. We have a tangible existence in a world with matter and gravity. We are separate from one another. We are separate from the created world and from the "intelligence' that created it. We are separate from each other in both time and space. We breathe. Fire burns. Falling hurts. The earth groans, has quakes, erupts, sloshes around. All that causes suffering. But it gives us an actual, tangible, unique and relational experience with creation. Can we even imagine a better world that isn't simply theoretical ? A world where fire doesn't burn ? Falling doesn't hurt? We are never alone? We also have the intelligence to judge and choose. In that we navigate our way, learn and grow. We also cause, ignore and judge the suffering of others. Jon's question is good though, does the concept of God simply help humans to explain reality? Or is there a God that gave rise to this reality (the very ground of our being) and we are doing our best to understand him? When we ask, "Why doesn't God intervene?" I sometimes think of this passage Matthew 11:16-18. Seems we want God to be who we want him to be and don't have the wisdom to see him as he is.

[@scotthix2926]

Half way through both examples show the selfishness of man, and the evil consquences of mans choice. Is God supposed to stop mans behavior?