Which games are the MOST COMPLEX and DEEP between DotA 2, Age of Empires, Warcraft 3 and Starcraft?

[@acksOldPeople]

In my experience most Dota 2 players have a complex of some kind

[@JohnnyTightIips]

Superior Inferiority complex, who can be the best at being inferior?

[@wanderer8038]

i have a happy winning complex and angry losing complex 😂

[@TylerSmith-oz7ry]

I have a sick gaming complex. I call it “My Moms Basement”

[@juohan]

Its unfortunate that most people only get to know dota through these people online, its a damn well made game

[@demikelis11]

😂😂😂❤❤❤

[@duanelong9853]

My wife could tell when I was playing dota based on my anger levels…

[@pussnuts]

When you level up, she will be able to tell when you're winning or losing dota2 by your anger levels 🙂

[@ShadeReason]

have you tried fifa?

[@vnABC]

My wife told my kid to stay away while I'm playing dota. That's one good reason I stop playing lul

[@lazylonewolf]

That's literally what happened to my friend and thus he stopped playing, even though we were just playing unranked 😐 Some people can't just handle being calm (and not being toxic) with these types of games. And yes he's a mid Pudge player 🤣

[@andreic8786]

well i'm like an addict. been playing dota since warcraft 1 i think like 2005-2006 and i finally quit this year. it feels like my biggest achievement. toxic game all around and def i was toxic when playing. i moved on to other games and i'm not as angry now

[@alexmcon8696]

Didn't know Benedict Cumberbatch was an avid gamer

[@KimmyR3]

as a former DOTA2 player, i wanted to get back to it but I can't. just thinking about the million mechanics that's been added since I stopped is daunting. the different interactions of items used by X hero on Y hero can have their own little quirks. ward placement have its own thing. even the uncontrolled creeps in the game can be influenced to favor your team. there's just so many things going in the game that it's anxiety inducing and hard (or at least will take a long time) for a new player to get into.

[@confleyz5315]

lmao stop, it isn't that hard, hadn't play dota since 2016, just started playing again and made it to ancient no problem

[@qqq3230]

game will put you in a low rank if you didn't played in a while. you dont need to worry about those things too much in lower ranks you will learn them on the way.

[@duyanhtran4049]

@@confleyz5315 I think under Ancient 5 is 80/20 case. that get Ancient is just highest of AVG ppl on this game. My experience with top 500 is most of avg player just play good some meta hero and the left of the game they don't. So the win they bring in that field often come up with someone can play so good with huge gap to other and bring the win to their team. In high rank when the depth and complex he said on video is for who want to reach highend game. Just see ppl stuck in Immortal number rank and you will see the 20 percent left.

[@ricobacalla1891]

If i stop playing for even atleast 15 hours, i'll play so bad when i play again lol

[@lucianobarreira5012]

it's only anxiety inducing because you are afraid of failing, because you don't want to look bad. We don't normally feel the same about non-competitive games that you come back and catch up on new content, it can feel like a whole new world to explore if you don't care about looking bad or failing. And isn't even that much, people get used to new mechanics pretty quickly, you just gotta play and who cares if you suck, when you have fun.

[@YY-mk4ti]

In Dota 2, new players will only either be naturally skilled people who likes a challenge or naturally stupid people who's brave but lacking. Any sane minded people would just play another game.

[@ljubomirjakimovski3899]

Hah! Kinda true 😄

[@leonknitis]

Brave and lacking only play limited heros !!

[@mancamiatipoola]

HAHA! Tnx bro. I feel so sane now. Yeah, i used to like playing PVP games a lot in my 20s, but i was a very sore loser so in time i toned down PVP games. Now im a 40+ gamer and i prefer chill RPG games or creative games. Sometime i play with ma boys and we do some MMOs or coop RPGs. PVP games are a young man's game, but are generally more toxic because people become too invested in a bunch of pixels :) When you stop caring about winning or beating others in games then you can just play games for fun, like we did when we were kids.

[@minimino9878]

Id rather play a challenging game since it feels satisfying after you get good at it.

[@danielgrizzlus3950]

I think it's not as binary as that, even the naturally skilled people would need to put in consistent hours for many months and years to get to a high level, it takes a long time to get from the trenches of really emotionally juvenile teammates that you cannot predict the behaviour of and as a direct result cooperate with them optimally. If you don't have the patience for awful people, and a life that allows you to spend 5+ hours daily on it, then regardless of how naturally skilled you are, Dota isn't for you.

[@rusfeedernoob5441]

I think hots isn't cherished enough for its unique quality of respecting your time: They made a solid game with heroes having their basic toolkit right from the start that advances throughout the game by talents and ultimate choice. You don't have to spend 20 minutes in the jungle and if it goes wrong, be trapped in an uphill battle for another 20+ minutes. Even after a poor start, your tank can still tank and your healer can still heal meaningfully. They basically skip the early game without losing the skill-influenced factor of building advantages but usually also not get too unfair. It became and still is my #1 choice.

[@angamaitesangahyando685]

That was true for 2015. But now we have Mobile Legends. (I know that PC gamers refuse to acknowledge the existence of mobile games, but it's honestly the best experience, lying in bed and pwning "nabs", as they say.) - Adûnâi

[@SadFace201]

I agree. And they still manage to capture the essence of a MOBA with all the unique kits the heroes have. Loved HOTS to bits. I'm sad that it was underappreciated and did not have the longevity of other MOBAs.

[@TheBinaryHappiness]

aka it's a casual game for casuals

[@Frodo1000000]

as a DOTA lover, i agree. HOTS was unique in this regard. I actually moved to HOTS until the very end, but then blizzard ditched it. Worst company ever. Among MOBAs there were 2 best mobas: DOTA if u wanted pure competition and complexity, and HOTS if u still wanted competition but wanted to respect your time a little more. Never was a fan of LOL. Always loooked like a dumbed down version of DOTA, in all the bad ways as well.

[@valentines92]

video is about most hard to play

[@johndoe-rq1pu]

Coming from a brood war lifer, it has basically infinite depth. It hasn’t had a balance patch in 20 years and the meta changes from month to month still.

[@jobo5300]

I don't really disagree with brood war being a very deep game but I don't think an ever changing meta is a good indicator for that. In game theory there is the concept of an equilibrium when all players are doing the best move for them leading to no further strategy changes. All the ever chaning shows is that brood war has no such equilibrium. This in itself is a good thing for a strategy game but I don't think it is an indicator of extraordinary depth.

[@mrcookies409]

@@jobo5300 Hmm I wonder to what extent maps influence balance. Does pro BW change maps often ?

[@kakarrru]

SC BW is th deepest game in this list, and it hurt my feelings Grubby thinks that DOTA is.

[@thinkata]

@@mrcookies409 to great extent

[@thinkata]

last balance patch 23 years ago

[@nafg115]

Aoe2 is though. Lot's of build orders and you've to pick the right one for the one of the 40+ civs you picked, but you have to play taking account the strengths of your opponent's civ. So, you pick Franks and you jave to do a scout rush build order or a fast castle two tc full knights. Your oponente pick celts and surprise! He will go picks, monks and siege. Depending on your skill levels, your knights are now to little or no use. So now you have to switch to light cav for the monks, your own mangonels and maybe some xbows or skirms.

[@thedevilneveraskstwice7027]

yeah aoe still sticks to this plain rock, scissor paper system and Its brain retiree community doesn't even mind lmao Kinda says a lot.

[@Jazzeinberg]

Played both Dota and League. A lot. But what I would add to your remarks, which I 100% agree with ( dota is way more deep and satisfyin), it is that League has a kind of hyper dynamic feeling that makes it very addictive, all these skill shots, dodge without the turn rate, low cdr spells, one shot combos, make it a very fast paced moba, and I think thats why the formula had more success. When complexity lies on inner instinct and reaction its easier to get in rather than when it lies on knowledge and situation analysis. Hope to see you back on both and thank you for the great content ! 😊

[@mrsnulch]

I actually prefer watching GrubbyTalks over Grubby's main channel haha. Watching him haul ass in WC3 and talk strategy is good fun don't get me wrong, but I'm actually more interested in seeing his perspective on various things like these gaming video essays, ramblings, tier lists etc. This channel is the real deal 🤌

[@NineNoRouge]

Same, I love the analysis he gives.

[@Evoleo]

I'm not even subbed to the main channel, but these videos on the second one are an absolute gem

[@_Old3n]

i found out just now that this is not grubbys main channel lol

[@KingJames-lm8go]

Artosis is screaming at this video

[@diegobuenovillafane869]

I am currently playing SC1 and W3, and find both of them veeery diferent and complex. Both are awesome. I feel that W3 is more open in the sense build orders and ways to counter things. That said, is like comparing apples and oranges, SC1 is enormous in so many ways. Nice video! thanks!

[@gundarsdzerve711]

I am also screaming.

[@Playboipete]

​@@diegobuenovillafane869 i feel like playerbase is important as well. is if a game is difficult to master but the player base is all casuals or no top tier pros. then the competition wouldnt as difficult compared to a game that has a huge pro scene. im not saying this is the case for these two games i only casually know of the bw pro scene. is there a wc3 pro/competitive scene still? maybe this not might even matter for such legacy games as these because same guys might have been playing them for 20 years lol.

[@galopus2707]

The problem a lot of people have is that they think complexity = fun and complexity = depth. You could add a bazillion different mechanics in a game but it’s not really fun if they don’t merge in any way whatsoever. Speaking for experience in game design (board games for me though), the most arduous task in any game design is always reduction. It’s like having a marble statue that you need to chisel at until you’ve got a finished sculpture. Just because you’ve got a bigger slab of rock or with more elements doesn’t always mean it’s more pretty or better.

[@ancy1205]

Exactly this. This become a serious self gaslight problem for Dota community to cover for their insecurity of their failing game. There may be more that you have to be mindful off in practice outside of the text provide so simple ability doesn't mean that character have no depth. And even then, it's a player vs player. Not player vs mechanic.

[@Ren-xv8xo]

Both are great games. I've quit DotA and just play Wild Rift mostly. Excessive mechanics 100% doesn't make DotA better. But I feel objective players that play both games excessively will mostly tell you that DotA has Soul. It's those quirky mechanics, the unappealing turn rate, those highly unconventional heroes, those weird additions and changes that sound shit on paper and a lot more shenanigans. It really adds depth and frequent minor frustrations. It really feels like an indie game made by an indie company. Which is why i quit the game, sometimes you'll get a balance patch after 3-6 months. League's wayyyyy better in that department and also the game related media & games that explores League's lore.

[@mithrae4525]

@@ancy1205 I don't think Dota is mechanically all that complex, and from what I gather some of the things which are brought up in that vein (in comparison to LoL for example) like turn-rate, backswing and high ground are A) legacy features from WC3 rather than introduced to create artificial complexity and B) more realistic anyway, for what that's worth. IMO most of the complexity falls into the categories of 1) heroes and items, 2) forced objectives or 3) EMERGENT complexity from the simpler rule-set: For the latter example the camp stacking and lane pulling mechanics which Grubby mentioned, along with others like creep blocking, 'orb-walking' and so on. Actually a bit surprised that he used those as examples, because the only difference between emergent complexity and tactical depth is perspective: Do you view lane pulling as part of a basic rule-set that you need to know, or is the game something you can enjoy without it but then it's an additional, situational tool you can add to your understanding later? Apparently Ana was playing professionally for OG before he learned how to use creep aggro mechanics to his advantage in a lane, for example - the aggro mechanics themselves are fairly straightforward, even if not written down in game anywhere, but working out how to manipulate them to last-hit better is another level (which I may reach one day!). 'Forced' objectives (roshan, power runes, bounty runes and now wisdom runes and tormenters; arguably catapult waves are in the same vein) are a bit of a mixed bag, put in the game to force potential teamfight points and theoretically add more excitement to playing and viewing versus a farming snoozefest. Individually they don't add much complexity, but they do add up together. It's the constant addition or major changes to heroes and items which really bugs me, constantly increasing the entry barrier for new or even (perhaps especially) returning players and making game balance and mechanics interactions exponentially more complicated. I suppose Valve probably knows what they're doing, have data on how the play habits of both casual and regular players change throughout 'stale' patches and after big shake-ups, and wouldn't do the big shake-ups if they didn't disrupt downward trends and at least temporarily restore overall engagement. But in that sense it seems likely that they're slowing the decline while locking out any possibility of an absolute trend turnaround - though to be fair that possibility has probably been dead and gone for at least a couple of years now.

[@full-timepog6844]

Wouldnt a complex game be similar to a human sculpture technically? Depth inherently comes with complexity, though the levels of depth aren't consistent.

[@Maxim.Nazarenko]

31:43 - one of the best advices to many players across different games. I understood that long time ago, incredibly helpful.

[@Khantia]

I feel like for HotS, the decision making, whether to take the objective or prioritize something else instead, feeds the depth instead of the complexity. Learning the objectives of each map would be "complexity", but knowing how to use them correctly is supposed to be "depth".

[@AnthonyJClink]

yeah I think the depth is broad.. not dota2 depth... but how you macro in hots is very difficult to learn.

[@mackparker9064]

@@AnthonyJClink i think macro in hots is so blatantly easy that even when you're losing you can say "and now they do this and this and this and we can't react because we're a man down or a talent down or we don't have vision" and you just lose the game. Ever since i hit gold in the old hero league it was quite easy to tell that. Curiously enough, when you play quickmatch, everything's out of the ordinary, since all of a sudden you can win down a talent tier or a man down because of team comp (Granted both teams don't have tanks or heals) and all what you know on macro has some new meaning. However this way of playing the game reduces to who has the most broken hero that can sustain himself, clear waves and have decent fighting power.

[@florianvanloo4109]

​​@@mackparker9064And I think that might be where you were wrong. No offense but Gold is pretty low for HoTS so I doubt you knew of a lot of angles of play. Even in high master or GM there were many different angles you could play, many again you had to make in split second decisions as a team. Hots is obviously still on the low end of complexity but still higher imo that you make out.

[@Playboipete]

hots was so fun.

[@JohnnyTightIips]

33:27 "Like poop through the intestine." A modern day Shakespeare.

[@joeschmoe3665]

Jonny Tightlips I thought you never said nothing?

[@Blizniak666]

Great video. I think there's more complexity to league of legends personally but I generally agree with your assessment of the other ones I played.

[@benhayward2597]

Man, I'm so glad Mechabellum got a shoutout, I've been playing it for about 4-5 months. One thing I would say is that there is definitely a wall when you start playing against actually good players, but once you figure out the counterplay its a great game.

[@sorenwestwood1514]

It was really interesting to think about the games Chess and Go given your definition of complexity and depth. In mathematical terms, Go is extremely "complex" by it's branching factor and possible board positions, but given your definition the rules are actually quite simple, and its the depth that's really what's so astronomically high. I'm very appreciative of the good energy you bring. Thank you.

[@Urza26]

Go is too tough and intimidating. Well beyond dota and chess. In those two games at least even if you aren't great, you can listen to commentators and get a rough feel for what's going on. Go is so abstract.

[@StrobeFireStudios]

"Move together, like poop through the intestine" - Grubby, 2024.

[@Ibrahim_Orhan]

This is one of the few golden contents presented to us, gamers and to humanity by KZbin about the most beloved mastermind games. We are grateful for sharing your experiences in a harmony with encyclopedia-like information to all of us. Keep up your good work and contents. Thank you again!

[@exalted-champion-of-grinch]

You may not need a PhD to play DotA, but you sure as hell need one to wrangle your teammates...

[@baranaygul3071]

Dota 2 is hard to learn but if you open minded person and love to reserch, its getting addictive. Dota 2's learning process never ends. ( 17 years wc3 dota1 & Dota 2 player)

[@alicehaze3858]

Now Grubby needs to get into fighting games to complete the hard games journey

[@HatsonFGC]

I'm not so sure if it's the type of game he would enjoy. You have to have a specific mindset to actually get anywhere with them, to a level where you could even begin to make comments like Grubby does in this video. Because the fact is most people know absolutely nothing about fighting games and whatever view they have on them, before actually learning them, are all totally wrong and juvenile / naive. That being said, Fighting Games are extremely rewarding to improve at. However, you NEED to go to offline locals and events if you actually want to experience the best things Fighting games have to offer. There is nothing better in fighting games than the offline scenes, it's a very social experience, despite all the introverts that play these games. Watch the recent EVO highlights. Watch channels like Core-A-Gaming. If any of those things look or sound cool to Grubby, then maybe he could enjoy one of those games.

[@vaguehonk]

@@HatsonFGC Why not? Fighting games are turn based strategy at their core, it's just that that turns happen very fast

[@WikiHL]

Grubby The King of Fighters arc

[@shibizzen9175]

@@HatsonFGC what fightning do you play?

[@HatsonFGC]

@@shibizzen9175 Mostly Street Fighter but dabbled into others too like Tekken, Guilty Gear, Marvel vs Capcom, etc.

[@Currywurst4444]

For complexity it is not only about the amount of decisions but also about how much they differ in their result. Neglecting this lead to overestimating the depth of some games in the video. I am going to write about starcraft because that is the game I know best. There are three factors that contribute to depth. The starting point is that all of these things already have to be active decisions without a singular best choice. -Build orders that can completely change the unit set you work with and your posture during the game. -The second bit of depth is the possibility of tricking your opponent with unit control and how it can lead to your units being out of position on the map. -The third bit is balancing micro and macro. Neglecting macro doesn't have a strong effect immediately but you accumulate a sort of dept that you have to fix later. The biggest factor by far with these is the build order. The thing that allows the build order to have such diverging paths is that it is based on hidden information so there can be abrupt shifts with new information discovered. There are many other factors that also interact with each other but generally, the amount of hidden information that doesn't rely purely on randomness has a very large impact on a games depth. For example this is mainly what gives Magic the Gathering its large depth. A game with less hidden information is Slay the Spire which is given too much depth in the video. This shows itself through there being a large number of little decisions but a lot of them don't affect the following decisions or the outcome of the run. I don't now enough about them but Mobas like Dota2 have less hidden information too but they might have other systems similar to the others mentioned for starcraft that make up for it.

[@Thunderjerky]

Chess would have a complexity of 3 with a depth of 10 lol

[@nomooon]

Especially Go

[@DomenG33K]

@@nomooon Go has a wierd complexity rating. Its both a 0 and 10...

[@alfonsstekebrugge8049]

Yes, but this is also why people conflate the two terms, because with the added depth comes added complexity because suddenly the simplicity of the game at face value is lost on a mad branching depth, so it just fades away in a complex context. For sake of argument I feel like setting the two terms apart temporarily is fine though.

[@srkbhayo]

chess complexity is near infinite

[@srkbhayo]

think of this, AI has mastered Dota 2 heroes, mostly. Also mastered Go, but AI is still improving upon chess

[@Pmon21]

as a gamer.. playing these games is an absolute pleasure. regardless of skill cap or difference of each one of them. we appreciate the analysis @grubby and the developers behind the scenes.

[@BigSadSky]

Variables add complexity which cater to experimentation and creativity while reducing redundancy. If it has a large amount of depth with complexity it has longevity because there are more things to do and try as long as it holds interest. Complexity is sensitive because it can also be a deterrent. If it's too complex people will put it down without accepting the learning challenge or if they do accept the learning challenge it may still be too difficult for them to actually enjoy. Different strokes for different folks.

[@QwertyQwerty-uh1cq]

I wish you could play Duels in Hearthstone. This mode was so much more fun. But it was removed due to low popularity. This mode was allowing you to play pvp dungeon run where you could build your deck and extend it during the arena-like run. Sometimes it was awesome. All of the depths with different combinations and unique mechanics were making almost every run fun. Best thing ever happened to Hearthstone.

[@dunkin9443]

As a dota player who started league in january, i feel like both games are complex, but in different aspect. Dota has more of this "Sandbox" mindset, where you have way more agenda over what your hero can do and become, thx to the items/talents and heroes not being set in standardized roles (Tank/Support/DPS/Assassin), thats the main reason dota feels so complex i would say. There is way more things going on on the map aswell in dota. On the other hand, Dota (mostly) got very straightforward characters will a lot of point and click spells. League is much more set in stone when it comes to character type and roles, with a few exception ofc, but for the most part, tanks are tanking, assassin are assasinating, mages are throwing spells, ect ect... In addition, Items building is very simple, u buy the type of items for your class, tanks buy tanks items, carries buy damage items, mage buy mage items. The complex part of League is managing your own character, league's gameplay revolved around hitting your spells, which are skillshot for most of them, dodging enemy spells, comboing your own spells. In short, dota is focused more on items building and map mouvement/teamplay, while league is focused more on characters and skill expression/execution. On the actual difficulty of games, well it depends imo. Dota feels more draining for me, even tho managing your character is simpler, the fact that the games are longer and its more teamplay oriented than league make the games more weary. Death in dota in other hand are less punishing, you can die a few time in lane, and still win your lane or go even and in late game, you have buy backs. League is less draining for me because you can focus on your match up and lane for a good chunk of the game, but dying in lane is a make or break, each death is very important. If your opponent got too much of an advantage, the game will be very painfull for you and there is no jungle for recovering bad laning phase like in dota.

[@duds_sn]

Just got here, but I'd say that Path of Exile, even being a different kind of game, also deserves to be in a great video like this. Nice content!

[@ivanjelenic5627]

Starcraft 1 being lower in depth than most games listed is wild. It should probably be a lot higher in complexity too. There is depth in every single little thing you do. You can follow many different paths to mastery and winning.

[@damonblack1495]

I've played hearthstone off and on over the years and generally I agree with you. Especially in it's current meta of post perils in paradise release. However there has been times in the past some decks were very complicated to play. But even now if you play the meta deck, which I think is virus control warrior, almost every other deck in the meta is teched or made to beat you. I find that winning with the "strongest deck" can be pretty challenging because the rest of the meta is wrapped around that deck. But again, agree generally speaking. A game with a ton of depth that usually is not found within it's genre is Path of Exile. It just recently launched a new league/season. You should def give it a shot.

[@MilkyMaN691]

As a dota player of 15+ years i totally agree. It's the most beautiful game ever created in my opinion and when you understand most of it and get to a certain level i tell you just have those moments when you are happy you can enjoy such things in life. BUT! The complexity is too high for a newcomer and majority of my friends who tried it gave up very early. Also i tried LoL recently and carried first 2/3 games. Its very simple but "skillshot based". Much tenser than dota in that aspect.

[@kurrwa]

lol is not good game, some champions are dog water and never buffed while other get changes every patch. Thats create unhealthy champion pick so you end up wiht champions that you basically never see I. The game 😂

[@confleyz5315]

yeah lol it's garbage compared to dota, I've played for a good time, almost got to master in league, I don't know how I played that garbage for too long, the worst f2p game that has ever been created

[@dankvada4588]

beautiful dota (everyone doing their part) is the most beautiful game ever created, shit dota is combination of being helt hostage and waterboarding for 40 min

[@ancy1205]

Lol is much better than Dota in the game design philosophy. Hence, the landslide differences in popularity. It simple on the surface yet have much more depth, follow the basic rule of "Easy to learn, hard to master". But it's popularity also make the game worse, since it collect all kind of new player who have no idea how Moba work. So the worst League player is much worse than the worst Dota player. It's just goes to show that the true difficulty in a good MOBA game lie in Player vs Player. Not player vs the system. There was a clip of 3 Pro League player wrecked 4 pro Dota player + coach in a Lol match, that supposedly much easier than Dota according to dota fanboy.

[@confleyz5315]

@@ancy1205 league game's design better than dota? did I play a different worse version of league of legends? brother I've seen the video you mention, the dota players were just trolling and making fun of league. lol is ass, not even worth comparing to any game, poor balance, spaghetti coding, trash visuals, bugs that were turned into game mechanics because they refused to fix them, trash monetization, new heroes releases being an exact copy of an already existing hero but powercreept, boring pro scene, lack of interaction between players. Offmeta is strictly forbidden (all games are played the same), you can only play a small pool of TOP heroes, small pool of jungle heroes, small pool of ADC heroes, and if you play something different other than those designed for each role you get flamed or can even get you banned, and if your pick were to be hidden meta, it gets nerfed so only it's played on it's intended role. League ain't even esport ready.

[@stefannicolaescu294]

for me StarCraft Brood War is the perfect combination of complex and deep. Not too complex but not too simple. You have enough options for races but not too many, just enough possible strats that your race allows, just enough types of units and everything is perfectly balanced. Not too many resources types, not too many upgrades, so you can chose to rush and play fast or to defend and play the long game. Has a map editor and a huge community that contributes to the map database. The game even allows skilled players to do flashy things - i remember the good old days of Slayer's Boxxer - the emperor of Terran - when he did the siege tank drop'n pick-up, or the drop'n pick-up of Reavers. Ofc i may be bias as it was one of my first games :)

[@Qwizzyx]

SC1 is for sure higher in both complexity and depth.

[@alf_duc]

As someone who spent his life playing Warcraft 2 & 3, Starcraft 1 & 2, and Age of Empires 2. It was an incredible revelation discovering Total War Shogun 2. It's by far for me the best strategy game. I actually feel like I have to think and strategize in battles. Blizzard games feel more like combat is purely based on Tactics instead of Strategy. I really reccomend you try Shogun 2. (Dont play other total wars, they work differently and they are not worth playing).

[@Aiveq]

oh? whats wrong with medieval, rome or warhammer for example in your mind?

[@infinitybrain7336]

@@Aiveq honestly i agree with this guy, at this day and age and for a first game, Shogun 2 is the best TW game to date, I'm a huge fan of Medival TW and Shogun TW (Dont like rome2 , never tried Med 1) I Agree that all else are either outdated or just not a TW game anymore ( WH2 TW is the bast game but WH3 killed it by making it easier)

[@alf_duc]

Sorry I meant the ones that came after, I didnt want to make the comment even longer. But I do believe that Shogun 2 is the peak of the old Total Wars

[@alf_duc]

I've only played Warhammer 2 and I always play on Legendary. 1. Morale doesnt matter. 2. Morale shocks dont matter. 3. Lethality is non existent due to healthbars. There is a youtube channel called Dishonorable Daymio on youtube that goes in depth on the importance of lethality and how all total wars from Rome 2 screwed it up. I agree with mostly everything he says about that if you want a long explanation!

[@Aiveq]

@@alf_duc i prefer warhammer 2 due asymetry it offers. i also found morale quite noticable fighting against bigger sized armies. i do agree Shogun might be better as competetive but as WH fan and wanting to have some fun, WH 2 seems to offer more. more durable units offer more cinematic experience and time to react so that plus in my book. low time to kill is frustating to me. i prefer WC 3 over SC2/AoE for same reason

[@RolfReibach]

Good points! My opinion regarding AOE2, WC3 and DotA: I remember when you said DotA wasn't that complex/deep and I was sure you would change your mind after a deep dive since this game offers an addictive variety I have not found in any other game so far. On the other hand the meta can feel a bit stale/predictable at times, depending on the draft system. Regarding WC3 and AOE2, I remember my first online games. Aoe went ok and was more readable for most parts while wc3 felt sooo hard to figure out compared to PC opponents. The items, strats, creep routes, etc felt more complex and deep. Basically every map must be learned whereas aoe has less complex maps, but more randomness due to map generation. I love both designs 😅

[@DarkMSG]

i can tell you did not play any AOE2 in 20 years game is changed A LOT. Also you don't know that because you did not played aoe2 at high level game is complex but has enormous depth because even pro players who played it for over 20 years of AOE they learn new things every time new strats etc.

[@RolfReibach]

@@DarkMSG good guess but it's wrong. High lvl aoe has little tactical options 1vs1 when you know the match up compared to wc3. In recent years it was obvious what to play against civ x. The pros say, e.g. no man at arms due to walls and other factors. The openings get switched up depending only on the maps, that's all. The pathing was so bad for some patches they did not play any archers on open maps in castle. In wc3 you see way more flexibility because of expo, upkeep, creep routes and items.

[@DarkMSG]

@@RolfReibach game depth is not only openings nor flexibility just because aom aoe3 or aoe4 having has more openings doesn't mean game is so deep. Also you are saying because of 1 bug after a patch "pathing is bad" go play again see if it's bad and compare that to other RTS that keeps getting updates lol. Games can be simple at start but can be very depth Skill gap and game depth in aoe2 is something different you don't see that very often for example Quake arena 1v1s game is very simple not many weapons and simple maps not many items but skill gap and game depth is on another level or for example counter strike but i would say Quake is higher on that and i played very high level in those games i was not even close to some top players. Let me give an example. I am 1700-1800 elo in 1v1s AOE2 i discovered a strategy when playing Sicilians fast castle risky strat donjon/tower rush but can be very strong i was beating high elo players above me while using the worst civ in the game (sicilians were considered bad before this) nobody knew this then 1 year later youpudding and red phosphoru came with this my strat come up with better timings and changes they were beating even pro players

[@DarkMSG]

@@RolfReibach go look up Youpudding and red phosphoru sicillian rush strats. pros didn't know that some random 1500 elo player like me discovered it and up his elo to 2000+ and beated pros (i did it 1-2 year ago earlier before sicilians changes made but they made it better strat with the worst civ in the game)

[@RolfReibach]

@@DarkMSG I don't think it has no depth, surely the balance changes and patches over recent years added a lot to a vivid gameplay. The game offers a lot of fun and I prefer playing off meta for some surprises most of the time too. For the pros though it seems a bit stale sometimes. Hera stated that in the past. The lower the lvl of play the more strats become viable because people don't get their counters and timings down. The symmetry in the tech tree helps to get into the game a lot and still there is a lot to learn later on. That's great about aoe2.

[@Harpreet06]

The point you said about meta in football with the example of the goalkeeper. There are definitely meta's in football and one of them currently is to have a ball playing goalkeeper who's good at distribution and is essentially an extra player.

[@jerryguo2695]

StarCraft 1’s meta is literally evolving with 0 balance patch. To say it has less depth than Warcraft 3 that still has balance patches is kind of a stretch

[@jesuisintrinsequementpolar3242]

Grubby is super biased on this topic

[@WikiHL]

Wow. What's been happening with SC1?

[@jerryguo2695]

@@WikiHL I guess I will give you a quick example with just the Terran vs Protoss match up. I started watching ASL (premier BW tournament) during covid lock down(2021-2022). During those times the meta for Terran was upgrade Terran, which is like two or three factory quick armoury with fast upgrades but low army supply. You turtle and use a low supply but upgraded mech squad to try to get a fast third expansion, and push Protoss with a fast 2/1 upgrade. Than a top Protoss player named Snow developed a reaver build which decimated low supply Terran army. This effectively killed the upgrade Terran build and the meta became 2 base 5 factory build pressure because Terran needed 5 factory to push back the reaver. The pressure is either used to kill the Protoss or go to a third base. Now the last month Flash started playing seriously on ladder again, and he is basically forcing the upgrade Terran build. He was getting destroyed, he even lost to deWalt who is like the best non Korean player, but he’s not Korean and Flash is Flash. Now flash is adjusting the upgrade Terran build so instead of forcing a fast third, he delays the third to have 5 factories while still getting quick upgrades before getting his third. Flash being flash is now doing quite well and people are now bouncing back to this new upgrade Terran build by Flash. 0 patches and the meta can shift and bounce because of two players making innovations. Now that is infinite depth.

[@humanbeing2282]

This is true to a point, but remember brood war is still getting new maps which is where the balancing occurs. Examples being the neutral eggs to allow for 4 pool defense and the minimum rush distances between bases to allow for sunkens to be built.

[@jerryguo2695]

@@humanbeing2282 the thing is map “balance” is literally reacting to the self evolving meta of brood war, and a few maps like Vermeer or Polypoid is not changed substantially but the meta continues to evolve. Point is they are making new maps taking account of meta, but the meta is evolving even in older maps.

[@CxzLyll]

I remember when we were younger newbies and first started watching some wc3 pro games we didn't know why the games ended, we speculated wether the tournaments had rules for buildings, units, hero kills but enjoyed the hype nonetheless^^

[@RevoRPM]

Do not show Artosis that SC1 ranking

[@yangpaan453]

It may be accurate for depth, but what makes starcraft quite possibly the hardest game in the world is not just it's depth/complexity but its mechanical demand at the same time. None of these other games come close to how much you need to multitask.

[@pouriya8587]

Agreed with almost all of these. Funny how some games that appear simple can have so many hidden mechanics.

[@ishanjalan]

this is a crazy video for me because I was comparing Starcraft and Dota 2 in my head this morning. Thanks for the video!

[@dawre3124]

I have never heard of Mecha Bellum, but I'm sure being in this list of games must make the devs year

[@SirContent]

6000 hours on dota2, hundrds of hour on sc2, i think to me at least sc2 is way harder, the strategies you can implement with multiple units is just so vast, little detail u have to handle are just too many. for dota2, i just foucus on one unit one strat and excute it as efficient as possible.

[@tristan8922]

i think the mechanical difficulty and complexity of starcraft is second to none but the diversity of styles of complexity and various game states is absurd in dota which makes it a different kind of crazy. Definitely agree with you in general tho

[@joostleisder1956]

@@tristan8922 SC1 hasn't had a balance patch in 23 years and the meta still shifts. That means that 23 years down the line it's still not entirely figured out, largely in part of it being so difficult that something that seemed unviable before was made viable by someone with the skill to execute it. Leave a moba without a balance patch for a couple months and the meta will have been entirely mapped out and would not change as there would be an objectively superior strategy that can't be challenged by simply being better as the skill cap is too low, so too many reach it.

[@Freakattaker]

@@joostleisder1956 That aspect of a moba isn't necessarily true since there's NEVER been a stagnant patch for these games. They always get patched before a meta can develop past a certain point. It can't be proven that the skill cap is too low, but it also can't be proven that there is such a deep one available for people to climb to. For example a game like SSB Melee had tierlists that put Yoshi in the dumpster, but he's considered Mid Tier now after decades only because someone put in the time to get good enough at the character for them to be considered even objectively viable. In a MOBA, Yoshi would've been patched up and down with buffs and nerfs long before anyone honed to the level of making him objectively a Mid Tier character in his old million year ago patch state.

[@tristan8922]

@@joostleisder1956 that’s a really good point I hadn’t considered.

[@luismiguelferrufinopantoni2942]

How many mmr do u have? I think a 2-3k player don't see the game like an inmortal player does

[@wodzu4085]

It's worth mentioning that both starcraft 2 and warcraft 3 give you access to a tool being almost an entire game engine. Some custom maps are actual games (ex. Before Darkness Falls, Beyond Koprulu, etc.) which adds even more depth to the games imo

[@MyHydralisk]

Grubby: Complexity is not good HoI4 fans: So you have chosen...death

[@ghiffaribara2949]

I want Grubby to play Hoi4 and do Equestria at War run, that would be funny lol

[@Shonbon17]

EU4 fans put on terrorist watchlist the second grubby said this.

[@generalsdragons6952]

Darkest Hour the best HOI game ever.

[@PopcornMax179]

HoI4 is so complex it interger overflows into the depth value.

[@EmmanuelGoldstein322]

Wait until when you pick Crusader Kings or EU4

[@danieltsss]

I totally agree with you on this list, I played almost all of those games for a very extensive amount of time, specially Dota 2

[@Newbtuber]

Regarding the depth in SC1, I disagree with you. The game is vastly more deep then SC2. We are talking about a game that hasnt been patched in over 20 years and yet the meta is still shifting because new thing and timing are being discovered. 10 years ago, people thought that the game was mostly figured out and then someone realize that you can mid game as terran transition from bio to mech vs zerg as a late game solution. Then zerg found out how to counter this was Queen, one of the least utilized unit in the game. Nowadays, protoss are exploring gateway opening with Zerg now more then before as early way to create aggression rather then forge expand and find timing. We are even seeing Battlecrusiers in TvZ as a standard late game unit which is mind boggling. If a 25 year old game which hasnt been patched in over 20 years that is still developing a meta is not the peak of depth, I dont know what is.

[@shreder89]

totally agree. I think a case simmilar to this one can be made for smash melee...

[@GrubbyTalks]

That's great, I love to hear it and I believe you

[@JakeGittes84]

​@@GrubbyTalkslol. Sure grubby

[@jeromemartel3916]

It's just the meta going around in circle tbh. "most effective tactics available" is something evolutive over time and yield good performance but then an anti-meta strategy is found, gain traction and then become meta and get countered eventually. It's just a meta-game within a game. It adds little to the depth imo.

[@Jez4prez1]

meta always changings. It's the same in SC2, a patch might be valid for 1 year and the meta will change like two dozen plus times in that one year. So that isn't unique to SC1. In SC2 you can never have a perfect build, there will always be some flaw that can be exploited by an opponents build. So the meta is always shifting in SC2 also, you dinosaur. Difference is everything is faster in SC2, even the meta changes are way faster.

[@cgoldbac]

That yellow bar creeping up on Grubby! Watch out!

[@theRadBrad2022]

I think the one thing that hasn't been mentioned for Dota 2 is it is a snowballing game. Dota is similar to chess, in regards to snowballing nature. Like in chess, where one lost E/F pawn can decide the outcome of the game , in Dota 2 just one successful deny in midlane can determine the course of the game (your opponent level 2 first --> can harrass you out of lane --> fast bottle --> fast rotate --> owning). And i think that's the most beautiful (and the most punishing) aspect of Dota 2. Every decision you make (pushing/smoking/objectives/farming) have impact, as little as it is, over time that change the course of the game dynamically. And like chess, it is not very welcoming to beginners.

[@seanchina9902]

This applies more on high skill dota like divine+. Below that is more forgiving since they are less likely to punish your mistakes.

[@Buzenbazen]

@@seanchina9902 It always applies to an extent but the margin for error narrows down the higher up you go, divine is still extremely trash tier and you can make a thousand mistakes and still win.

[@msweeedo]

@@Buzenbazen Divine it not "extremely trash tier" lmfao yes theyre not the best but compared to the average population divine is extremely extremely high. Low archon is average so by the time you get to divine youre already 85+ percentile

[@samuelmontenegroserniotti7146]

26:43 Troll going afk seeing that throw is immaculate

[@FlaighDoh]

Need to add the "mechanical skill" skill column separately from complexity for better understanding. I mean, for example SC may be not as "complex" as Dota because of hundreds of heroes and emotionally juvenile teammates, but SC skill requirement makes it barely playable for most of Dota community

[@Paulo.Haller]

thats true, multi task games are harder mechanically speaking, souls game fall in there too.

[@Jet-ij9zc]

​@Paulo.Haller I wouldn't put souls game in that category at all. Mechanically, they aren't that difficult. It's just that they punish greed and overconfidence very harshly.

[@richardchristensen4116]

Not sure I’d say barely playable. Although I guess it depends on what you consider good at a game and “playable.” It may take some time to adapt but that’s doable. About 6 years ago when I was in college, I took a break from Dota (currently Divine 1) to play SC2 for about 3 months. I got up to mid plat which isn’t terrible given the time put into it. Maybe this is a perception thing that all competitive game communities have about their own game. But something I noticed in both SC2 and Dota is that people only consider top 1% of players as good and then consider everything else as trash. I would be no where close to good in comparison to a pro in SC2 but it was definitely playable and got decently above average in just a few short months. And same with Dota. I’ve played it on and off since 2013. And even at Divine 1, which is about 93rd percentile, people consider themselves as trash because only pro players are “good.”

[@FlaighDoh]

​@@richardchristensen4116 By "barely playable" I mean that most Dota players wouldn't even bother trying to learn to play SC just because playing a game like a piano session combined with a chess blitz is not what they expect and enjoy. The same way, I don't want to bother memorizing every item and hero in Dota simply because that's not going to be fun for me. I'm not saying one is good and the other is bad. Both are games, and everyone is free to choose whatever feels more fun for them. I do think that Dota is more appealing to a wider audience thou, because "mechanical" type of complexity, especially in 1v1 format, is not everyone's cup of tea.

[@chriss87878]

The reason why Dota is ranked so hard and complex though is beacuse Dota literally has SC2 and WC3 gameplay and apm level as a possibility. Heroes like Arc Warden, Meepo, Chen, Naga, LD etc all offer insane micro gameplay and controlling a bunch of units at once with insane micro and mechanical skill. I do agree most Dota players can't even play these heroes and would suck at SC2, but Dota 2 absolutely has these mechanics ingrained into the game already.

[@hehmda672]

Me and my friends, back in school times in 2004-2005 hated dota because we considered it so primitive and stupid compared to Warcraft, and yet it was more popular

[@mighij]

The RTS genre really needs a C&C style game for onboarding new players into the genre, it's mechanics were fast, simple to understand but still a lot of fun; (in boardgame terms we would say beer&pretzel casual) But genres need these kind of games so people can learn the genre.

[@1InVader1]

I'd argue that's what AoE4 is right now. The controls are comfy, I've had a very smooth transition from Red Alert 3 to AoE4. People new to RTS are always slow, get overwhelmed by getting their attention span stretched, and fall into the pattern of trying to build impeccable defense vs. a predictable CPU opponent before attacking, because they can't handle both attack and defense at the same time. It's why people love something like Stronghold Crusader, because the whole point of the game is to just build a nice castle and THEN attack when ready. In AoE4 not only does that not work, the game's flow naturally leads new players to abandon trying to build the perfect defense and instead focus on steadily advancing through the map with the army. It's far from the dynamic plays at higher level, but it's sure as hell a lot better than turtling.

[@englishbeef7493]

stronghold is easiest no gatherers and builders to micro probably best rts to get into as a beginner i think also for people who like Sims. followed by red alert since it has that deploy mechanic

[@joojeyeraaz]

i hope d.o.r.f. gets released in the next few years

[@robin2thek]

I realy like these types of videos. I miss HOTS it was so much fun the first few years.

[@linkon1744]

Dota2 is the Nerd version of LoL, finally confirmed.

[@aninnocentcoconut855]

unironically, yes.

[@zickland8100]

As a Dota 2 player, yes, but I'm not a virgin

[@KradDrows]

Nah nah, LoL is the kiddie version of Dota for people who want to feel like a skilled player without actually being one.

[@homosapien-bk5rf]

Dota came first. League of lesbians was built by stealing ideas as well as developers from dota. Fuck Pendragon and his 10 generations

[@tomeeekcz]

@@KradDrows of both games, one is more focused on reflexes and quick clicking, so what gaming skill are you talking about in Dota? Let's face it, lol, it's simple in terms of rules, but the level of players at the top is objectively higher.

[@Vandicus]

Options, particularly very different options, add complexity. Means more memorization and makes the game less approachable, but adds the potential(not guarantee) for the game to be made more enjoyable. In a pvp game this can get somewhat exponential as each new option must be considered in combination with all previous options.

[@vaguehonk]

One of my biggest beefs in gaming is how radical changes to Dota are. I loved the game in 2014-ish time frame, and it felt like such a complete game, and it has changed so much it's a completely different game now and I don't think it's better at all, just very different. It's like if they suddenly decided to patch Brood War in 2024 and added heroes and 5 more races to the game. To me it's a prime example of unnecessary complexity. Just leave my favourite game alone :(

[@dapedaily]

the best way to enjoy Dota2 casually is full party of chill people and not took it too seriously, or just play ability draft

[@ira233]

Grubby should play Hearts of Iron 4

[@dizzyspindra]

i agree mostly, although I would say slay the spire is definitely less complex than hearthstone, specifically the barrier to entry. hearthstone you still need to read thousands of cards between your collection, starter decks, different mechanics that pop up, and cards your opponents play. Slay the spire was much more digestible and was easier for me to start playing.

[@Oridan1]

slay the spire is on another level design wise. It's so simple and yet SO DEEP. Beating ascension lv20 was insane for me

[@harbhub]

STS doesn't have nearly the depth you claim. SC1 has tremendous depth, yet you overlooked that drastically.

[@Audon4150]

Great video ! Only missing Age Of Mythology in my opinion, it gives something more/different than other RTSs. (Ofc you cannot put everything in every list)

[@miraclehuman5262]

This was a really good video I love listening to you talk about all the rts/mobas you play im mostly into mobas but its rare to see youtubers or streamers that talk anc compare all of them trying to be unbiased usually people are like ah yes dota 2 is the better game ah yes league bla bla bla. but there needs to be more nuance and its nice to listen to you talk about stuff like that even if you are quite new to league for me i am quite new to dota 2 but i love listening to people talk about both games and comparing them

[@bigwig8657]

Dota 2 is complex enough that open ai spent a billion hours of game time learning and still never figured out stacking and pulling.

[@rafawojcik2453]

Thats kinda misleading, OpenAI worked on DOTA in their very early stages, before transformers were invented by google, and Microsoft's $1bilion investment. With their current scale, and advancements in Deep Learning models, they'd probably do much better

[@philh2932]

@@rafawojcik2453weird AI apologist lol

[@rafawojcik2453]

@@philh2932 not sure how your comment is related to mine xd What is apologetic in my comment?

[@qroof.youtube]

@@rafawojcik2453 look up the word Apologetics. You are an apologist for AI.

[@rafawojcik2453]

@@qroof.youtube I'll repeat my question - what was apologetic about my comment? I stated that OpenAI didn't figure out dota, because it was working on it >10 years ago, before big investments from Microsoft and before biggest recent breakthroughs in AI. It's a statement of fact

[@SamSGLM]

Hots complexity is masked behind its intents. i agree with your ranking but i would like to add while there is not a shop and economy to manage like the other 2 (map economy is a thing in both), like you said about the different maps, the variation of talents for the heroes actually create an insane barrier to entry (specially when it wasnt fully unlocked from thestart) to understand what the player chooseto specialize and what will it mean in 10m if he goes all in for 1 ability or what he specs for you etc. each hero has their unique talents and there used to be more copy pasted type talents (giant killer, veteran marksman, bolt of the storm, nexus blades, attack momentum, block etc) and now most are unique for that hero to how and which abilities it works with creating a lot more complexity and some depth for what is expected.

[@r3mpuh]

DotA 1 aka DotA Allstars so complex, it's off the charts!!1 🤯

[@moebino2685]

DotA 1 is less complex and deep than DotA 2 though

[@bigwig8657]

​@moebino2685 Gameplay yes, but learning the game and executing the gameplay it was much harder(not a good thing)

[@moebino2685]

@@bigwig8657 it really wasn't people just shackled by nostalgia they control the same, it's just graphics is different, I played both for so many years even was one of those refusing to switch to dota 2.

[@skitidet4302]

@@moebino2685 It was unless you remapped keybindings which was not a default feature in wc3. Learning to play DotA Allstars with the default key bindings is incredibly complex.

[@moebino2685]

@@skitidet4302 even with legacy keys at that time before custom key binding became so popular the game was less complex and less deep seeing as the content it had was way less, less items, less heroes, simpler spells and way more passive abilities that don't have secondary active component. having to press different keys is not complex enough to make dota 1 more complex.

[@melodymondlicht8905]

grubbys laugh when he got the sacred site victory made me realise how much i miss him playing aoe :D thanks for the great video

[@game_jinx]

qualitative semantics that operate in a vacuum will never describe the success of a game. reverse engineering games with empty words....will result in trash

[@game_jinx]

programming games easier than payload integration systems

[@SpHxalen31]

come back to dota, grubby. we miss you so much

[@Ardell_Drelzexian]

The only reason I agree with Dota 2 is because you still need extremely high APM in situations where your teammates leave the match and a player has to take over control of that character's movement/abilities and that character's economy/items. I was a high APM player in RTS games and have won games controlling all 5 heroes. I will say that when it comes to controlling multiple characters that it's complexity can greatly increase.

[@KitsuneFaroe]

Except you don't really control their economy sadly. They are freezed since the moment they disconnect, so you can't buy anything more or even change item slots.

[@joaoaraujo6377]

This video is really well formatted and made, Congrats!

[@hamzaguellour7658]

Elden ring pve is indeed pretty straight forward, but the pvp is one of the most complex ones, hyperarmor, super armor, priority ,spacing, true combos, pseudo combos , you should give it a try if you're lvl 150

[@ixirion]

simple games like Street fighter have quite a depth too. that dont make them complex

[@sophiaperennis2360]

Single player can be like that too. Hyperarmor, priority, spacing etc is all important in PvE as well. Sure you can just blunder your way through victory against most bosses but once you try to master them it's a different deal. That said, PvE can never compare to PvP, that goes without saying. Depth of bosses is finite and limited to a set amount of variables. Sure, attack patterns are randomized but an algorithm cannot compete with an actual human intelligence.

[@jeanpaulkassdale]

Great video ! Would love to see an updated version with Chess, Counterstrike, Diablo and PoE.

[@Hostobi]

Elden ring pvp is very complex imo

[@Nevecus]

That's the place where you find the complexity, indeed. The sheer understanding of the game's mechanics and its exploits can lead to the oddest solutions. As always, it's down to the multiplayer component to create the best complexity and depth alike, just playing against a computer will never be the same experience.

[@Chris3s]

I would love to see you take a serious look at the C&C games and popular fighting games

[@onixdebian]

I played dota for 13 years and AoE2 for 20 years and and it took about 3-4 years to get into "better than 99% of all players", in League it was about 7 months xd

[@3xi1e]

…so u spent ur entire life getting better at mobas, and in turn it was easier to climb on a new moba game? Minds blown

[@onixdebian]

@@3xi1e aoe is rts and I started lol before dota

[@3xi1e]

@@onixdebian but when did you get top 1% in dota and league respectively? because while dota is obviously a more complex game, assuming you're talking about the recent years and not 10 years ago, the league's ladder is massively bigger and more competitive. u get that its hard to believe u had such an easy time climbing in league when it took u 4 years in dota

[@onixdebian]

@@3xi1e about 6-8 years ago yeah, now I suck big time 🤣

[@chriss87878]

@@3xi1e league is a lot easier to play and a lot less to learn though making it easier to climb.

[@danielsicko8593]

In Handball goalkeeper do sometimes join the offense in 7 vs 6 plays. This is a very viable strategy in Handball.

[@norberthiz9318]

sc2 and especially sc1 defeneitly should be much much higher in terms of depth. sc1 is by far the most complex and has by far the most depth from that bunch, it isn't even close, I'm personally not a fan of sc1, but it is clearly the most difficult. I actually don't think it even needs much explanation, no other game literally no other game has kept evolving for 20 years despite literally zero changes(apart from maps), I think that says enough. With sc2 grubby clearly is basing his opinions of his experience, the problem is the game changed so much since he was a pro, the game is so much more difficult then it was back then. Truth be told many of the difficulties and depth comes from mechanical difficulty, but even then how can you put dota2 that much higher when one has almost zero mechanical difficulty while the other is almost infinite. From a strategic depth is a bit more difficult to accureatly rate since sometimes the meta settles it becomes stale and figured out. But still on a large scale you just have to look at serral or maxpax or maru. They very very often don't win on mechanics, so many times I have seen serral just make the best players in the world look like idiots just based on strategy, serral is the number one goat by far, but mechanically he isn't actully much better then a clem or reynor or maru. He regularly gets outmultitaksed on ladder by clem and maxpax. But his deciosion making, scouting reactions are ALWAYS on point. He is literally the only player in the world noone can out strategise, if the strategic depth was not as high this wouldn't be the case. Maxpax's one gate expand pvp style is also telling imo. Sure partailly why it works is because his micro is amazing, but there is many other tosses whose micro is amazing and literally none of them can do it, becasue perfect micro is not enough to pull that style of as consistantly as maxpax does it. PiG said he often talked to maxpax about it, and he said that maxpax decison making was so weird and complex and based on the smallest possible detail, Maxpax just couldn't really explain his strategic decision tree he has in his head. I also think that this depth exists at every level, but that is a bit more difficult tot alk about, tho the fact that I couldn't even count how many times I have heard lambo crititsize professional caster's analysis is telling as well. But if I personally think if this depth exists at the highest possible level it evidently exist at lower level as well

[@ixirion]

I agree. Dota complexity comes from the team and number of unit variation. In Sc2 for example the complexity comes from doing 10 things at the same time, requires incredible reaction times + strategy. Its no wonder Dota is more popular its just easier to do. As RTS player I jumped in ranks in Dota in no time.

[@Absolute_Zero7]

@@ixirion The thing is that Dota is often complex not just in reaction times and strategy, but also how non-intuitive and outlandish many of its mechanics are. More than most other games, core gameplay mechanics are based on programming/design oversights and bugs that overtime became core mechanics that are necessary to learn, something that SC2 especially doesn't have. Understanding how the creep ai works and how to abuse it, understanding how neutral creeps work and how to abuse it, these low level systems don't appear in Starcraft.

[@Sapreme]

I think you're misunderstanding the rating. He's rating the games on how complex and depth the game are, not how mechnically difficult they are to play. I don't think brood war or sc2 is really THAT complex or deep in terms of strategy because like Grubby said, a lot of the games are repetitions of previous games. Most of the matchups are static, and you don't really deviate that much from them because a lot of strategies and units simply aren't viable if you're trying to win. Brood War has gotten to the point where if a player makes a single Queen, a single Dark Archon, or a single Valkyrie, its considered a major breakthrough. On the other hand, he put DotA very high up in both because of how many variables there are in the game, not because of how mechanical it is. What do you draft? What do you ban? Where do you lane? What items do you build towards? Should we pick (Off-Meta Hero) in this situation because its suddenly a very strong pick due to these specific variables? There is no correct answer for this because the answers all depend on what the other team is playing as well. In BW TvZ, I already know I'm going to build marines medics, I already know I'm building turrets because Mutas will hit at 6:45 and I'll be stuck in my base until Vessels, which forces the zerg off mutas and I'll have to play against Lurker Defiler until I win or lose depending on how much of the map I can take.

[@ixirion]

@@Sapreme Oh I dont agree at all. I can give you loads of examples: 1. In sc2 you often have multiple basses that needs tp be protected. which to get first or second, how many units to defend, wher is enemy army, how big is it, what is the composition etc. 2. In sc2 you often have 2-3 battles simultaneously, if you are defender, how many units you will have to send tp each encounter, what is enemy attack force. is it ok to lose one battle but keep the army together 3. Lets take one unit as oracle for example as energy based unit you have to jugle its energy and decide - should I go and harasse enemy workers, with how many oracles?when should I return them to defend or should I sacrafice them for economic dmg, should I use relevation or not, when, where? you do and have way more decsion in much shorter time while simultaneously doing much more apm. what to ban and which lane to go is just... not a compare.. each race have 50 different openers from proxy buildings, to canonrushes to greedy expand etc. I am also talking Sc2 pvp only. If we add coop each commander play totally different, if we add campaigns its another case if we add some modes like for example Nightmare edition etc Dota is tiers, and tiers bellow cos we have now hundreds and hundreds of different units.

[@mrmistmonster]

SC1 and SC2 are different conversations but I still feel like you are not quite listening to what Grubby or the other commentator is saying. He's saying a very precise thing from a very precise perspective.

[@MilowskiMasalami]

about the example you did about the Soccer, there is a mexican Jorge Campos he was a striker too lol

[@louisroche9574]

Follow up question would be: how much can you remove from a game without hurting it's depth? Could we remove half of the heroes in dota 2? Or even 75% of the heroes?

[@charlotte_0_0_0]

slay the spire deeper than magic! ? no way . loved the video though :>

[@СергейКлочков-ф4у]

Does it mean that chess is the perfect game - low complexity, infinite depth?

[@917rommel]

That is chess, all rules on one A4 paper. Dept so deep that it has no rng and perfect information and no machine can solve it.

[@peterdieleman303]

Better yet, Go

[@tomokokuroki3783]

BatChess

[@EtherealHOTS]

Go is even deeper

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

​@@917rommel Every possible position with 7 pieces or less has been solved and the size of the data base is about 140 Terabites lmao. Now that is *DEPTH*

[@TheSrbBrownBear]

Off topic, but you should try Godsworn, its currently early access, two dev studio rts im having a blast with ( when not no lifing wc3 ) and it is a lot more new player friendly in their building system as workers are automatically made and you assign them etc, i feel like grubby's imput would majorly help the devs and id love to see em make a new hero styled rts.

[@Lucitaur]

All WC3 heroes being 'guns' is a virtue, not a flaw. Units produced can be changed on the fly, allowing you to adapt, yet you can't do that with heroes. Meaning people would quit even faster if they noticed their hero got hard countered (and I refuse to explain why having mechanics which encourage leaving is a bad thing). On a side note, hard counters are one of worst features in a MOBA (LoL, to ve more precise) because there is nothing worse than having your pick get counter-picked and then be forced to eat shit for the next +20 minutes.

[@ZeRasseru]

I don't know for RTS-RPG games but I have to disagree on the MOBA side. Being countered isn't an end per sé. It will make your game more challenging but you have many, MANY tools at your disposal in order to overcome it. Plus, never forget: it's a team game.

[@SadFace201]

@@ZeRasseru he might be talking about League of Legends. In contrast to other MOBAs, League is notorious for terrible balance and part of the snowballing problem they have is also because of a lack of tools available to deal with issues like hard counters.

[@Lucitaur]

@@SadFace201 You are right, I was talking about LoL, not MOBAs in general, mb

[@SadFace201]

@@Lucitaur As someone that plays multiple different MOBAs, I've seen both the strengths and weaknesses of League. I highly recommend branching out to other MOBAs. Each gives a different flavor of the genre that is refreshing to play. You'll have your eyes opened with how other games are balanced and the cool things that are possible within the genre. Don't be like the 90% of League players (which is to say all of my friends) that for some reason only ever play League.

[@simeongeorgiev1107]

Brilliant video Grubby! Thank you for making and uploading it.

[@chongli297]

I think the rankings here would be very different for a new player to both the RTS and MOBA genres. The initial learning curve of an RTS like WC3 or SC is way, way higher than any MOBA. DOTA2 may have a ton of complexity that you unlock over time but if you're a new player you just pick a random hero and your team will tell you what to do. Figuring out how to play any one hero (and you really only need to learn one hero at a time) is much easier than learning to play a race in WC3 or SC

[@GrubbyTalks]

Hmm... it is possible I have a blind spot about RTS because I am familiar with the concept of an RTS. You're probably entirely right in this... if you knew nothing, would it be harder to begin playing WC3 or DOTA2? How many minutes would it take an expert to teach you how to play? Or would your metric be "how good of a job does the game itself do to teach you?"? Then complexity is partially down to the quality of the tutorial.

[@zekko5]

@@GrubbyTalks The biggest difference between RTS and MOBA is in micro and macro imo. In MOBA, micro can be boiled down to knowing how to best use your ONE character's resources in any given situation while macro is focused on one singular map that is always the same with it only being in different states (different objectives depending on time of the game, different amount of enemy team objectives to take etc.). In RTS, micro considers every single unit you have, from workers, fighting units to heroes (which you can have more than 1, each with 4 different abilities just as in MOBA) while macro considers many different maps which can also have many different states (different creep camps being taken, different expos left to be occupied etc.). I'm not saying MOBAs are easy, I've been playing LoL for 11 years and I still don't know many things, but in RTS you have to learn so many different aspects of the game all at once because improving in one part yields much less final improvement while I feel that in MOBAs you can improve on one single champion in only micro let's say and you will be able to play much better and win more with only that. Ofc you'll need to learn macro at some point to go the distance but it is not necessary to see the results while in RTS you can be good at micro but why would it matter if you're on one base for the last 20 minutes, on T2 with UD, have no production and are food blocked.

[@invoker6219]

Cool story except DOTA 2 is a combined of both MOBA and RTS. This video is correct because DOTA 2 is way complex than other RTS games. DOTA 2 is far from other MOBA games. What MOBA games has a slow pace like DOTA 2? What MOBA games has a macro like DOTA 2? No to mention DOTA 2 has other complexity stuffs like the delay of cast animation, facet, talents, neutral items, 100+ variety items, 100+ abilities from aghanim shard, counter picks and other more things. You think items only just to boost your stats/spells? Think again. There is an item that can be dropped when you got killed. Also there are like 5 objectives in DOTA 2 (capture the outpost, destroy tormentor, kill roshan, destroy buildings, protect buildings, warding)

[@1InVader1]

Warcraft 3 has a single player campaign which teaches you the ropes and gives you clear objectives. Definitely easier to pick up then DoTA, where you don't even know what your objective should be at any given time. Some people still don't know even after 1k hours.

[@zekko5]

@@1InVader1 campaigns in wc3 and sc2 dont teach you jack shit for multiplayer, with all due respect sir.

[@joakinfrati7867]

I think a good way of viewing this is how are IA developments on the games are, i know for example IA on starcraft are really good, mainly because what u describe in the video, infinite min maxing APM really relevant, and in AOE2 most IA develped in voobly times or now are crushed by 14+ players which are abit above avg, because decision making is so much more important than anything else

[@urskrik6353]

Red Alert 2 is the most complex game of all time. I'm not joking, if you guys only knew

[@terry1357913579]

I am a long life fans of Red alert 2. May I hear your explanation on this?

[@EdeYOlorDSZs]

Loved this analysis by a fellow Dutchie 🇳🇱 :)

[@tw33kish]

elden ring depth being below specifically HS standard physically hurts me. please grubby, play just one hour of elden ring pvp and coop and one hour of hs standard and i am almost certain you would change your mind instantly. still love your stuff of course, just a sincere and somewhat exaggerated opinion :)

[@confleyz5315]

pvp in elden ring is trash, and I love invading other players, but the depth of the game narrows down to just who has the better L2 and the meta weapon

[@tw33kish]

​@@confleyz5315 it allegedly being trash doesn't directly contradict my gripe in any way. If you hate on ER PvP for being too samey i dare you to play HS standard

[@geraldbriceno7425]

I've just played three games in my life. SC1, WC3, and Dota 1/2. I didn't know I'd gone so high in the complexity chart. I should try one of those low complex games for a change.

[@Maxim.Nazarenko]

Good analysis.

[@cynicle]

Great video Grubby. I love and play all of these games and generally agree on most points (although I think having DOTA and LOL separated by such a magnitude is a bit comical) I do think you really shafted Elden Ring though (and I get why, you never experienced PvP or got deep into builds and playstyles on stream). I think you focus to much on 'beating' Elden Ring as single player game rather than the total complexity that is provided by the replayability and PvP aspects of the game. Slay the Spire for example is also very shallow if you play one character, don't play around to much with your deck and go for a simple victory without modifiers. Elden Ring has hundreds of weapons all with different movesets and stats that are optimal in different situations, hundreds of items, tens of talismans, multiple character builds stat wise, etc. There are many more combinations for your 'build/playstyle' in Elden Ring than are possible in say Slay the Spire. I think Slay the Spire is more accessible and lends itself for better replayability because Elden Ring is so big it's daunting for a lot of people to replay after 1 playthrough of hundreds of hours but that just shows in another way how much content there is on the complexity side for Elden Ring. Competitive PvP imo will almost always make a game more complex inherently than singleplayer, and the Elden Ring competitive PvP community goes almost silly in it's testing and analysis of crazy technical aspects of the game. There's some great over views of the skills and knowledge needed in that community if you're ever interested (I only view as an outside observer, I've only dipped my toes into it as it's pretty overwhelming). Anyway that's me commenting out of love for your analysis on this topic :)

[@LinhNguyen-zf9ww]

In dota 2 , beside enemies, you need to read 4 idiots who playing with you and do the right thing to win or they will rage quit and troll the game , that the most complicated thing ever seen 😂 , it's not game it's life experience

[@stambe8605]

Sir, you absolutely NAILED it 😂

[@MaxMusic1000]

because everyone is an idiot except you.

[@kurtstar5425]

Well looks like Dunning-Kruger effect is in action.

[@misos1393]

I really can't agree with anyone saying elden ring is a 10/10, seems disingenuous to say it's an unimpeachable masterpiece that could not be improved upon when on average people play it 30 hours and never play it again.

[@Robbatog1]

Huh? That's a strange take IMO. Is it disingenuous to say The Godfather is a masterpiece when on average people watch it for 3 hours then never again? A game that offers 30h of great content is a great game. A game that offers 10000h of great content is also a great game. Some (most?) people prefer not to play the same thing for thousand hours.

[@misos1393]

@@Robbatog1 How pathetic to think people don't rewatch that movie over and over and try to base an argument over it and still fail to make any point whatsoever. A great game isn't a 10, it's not a masterpiece. When some dude gives 15 games a 10/10 rating every month, you sit there and keep eating it up pal. Diablo 4 got 9 publications to give it a 10/10.

[@PawelCizi]

The negative space in these columns is also the graph for FUN.