Which One?

Discord Link: / discord
A bit of a different video then normal, I do a deep dive into Discipline vs Morale in Eu4. I hope you enjoy!
Catch me on Twitch where I play Eu4 MP:
/ lemoncake101
If you enjoyed, a like and a sub would be very much appreciated.
Editing has been kindly done by www.youtube.com/@thekaiser-eu... check him out if you haven't already!
Video Chapters:
0:00 - 0:55 Intro
0:55 - 1:04 Self Shilling
1:04 - 1:22 The Problem
1:22 - 3:04 AI Solutions
3:04 - 4:15 General Advice
4:15 - 7:58 Discipline Build
7:58 - 9:57 Morale Build
9:57 - 10:22 Outro
See you next Video!

[@possumsquid50]

Morale wins battles, discipline wins wars.

[@LemonCake101]

You have to commend the British, lose every battle, win every war.

[@Junker-sq6pu]

To win a war against the british you must throw the tea in the sea.@@LemonCake101

[@LemonCake101]

@@Junker-sq6pu just be careful, you think you win, and then you look over your shoulder and they are burning down your fancy new white house

[@willferg7347]

Really REALLY love the quality of production of this video. Slay king

[@LemonCake101]

Appreciate it, thanks!

[@Penchh]

The main reason you want both is because stacking morale on morale and disc on disc is stacking additive modifiers, whilst stacking disc on morale and vice versa is multiplicative in effect

[@LemonCake101]

That is true, that is the issue with additive modifiers after all.

[@plebisMaximus]

Funny you brought up specifically Switzerland as the example of a country that might struggle. I've managed to punch far, far above my weight just stacking merc modifiers and discipline, then relying on laughably defensive mountain forts to really get the enemy disadvantaged. They probably have one of the best starts for dealing crazy amounts of casualties.

[@LemonCake101]

For sure, when you set up for it, but if you do start losing battles, you have to be careful!

[@andriusgimbutas3723]

Not something you'll pull off in mp

[@maikatideibaskapanaumrqlatupa]

​@@andriusgimbutas3723not everything has to be about mp

[@user-jh8xg2yg1q]

​@@andriusgimbutas3723 in mp swiss is strong.

[@andriusgimbutas3723]

@@user-jh8xg2yg1q If you have have discipline build and you fight France with 2 point of morale above you, you will lose battles. And with losing battles, you will lose the war because there isn't land behind you can retreat to

[@archimedes6154]

aight so been subbed for quite a while now and what I can tell is that bad boy just straight up making some high quality content started from just stacking tax evasion modifiers to whole fucking plot videos with animations and text Ngl based. keep it up my guy

[@LemonCake101]

Appreciate the support, thanks! Don't worry, I haven't abandoned modifier stacking.

[@evancaple3395]

Mercenary Manpower Modifier 💪💪

[@LemonCake101]

Might be an interesting one for sure, I will take a look!

[@matthewmcneany]

I've always thought of morale as the better early-mid game modifier and discipline as the better mid-late game modifier.

[@LibertyMonk]

Yeah, for a number of reasons, morale is important early on (casualties are low, countries are small, free morale sources aren't capped). Once you're well established, you've got morale covered by PP, Prestige, AT, etc, so you take discipline to avoid diminishing returns, and because you have enough morale anyway.

[@LemonCake101]

Liberty Monk basically answered that for me, so see above!

[@sealking1775]

The Video but Simplified. - Morale = How long you can Figth. (Requier many manpower) Gud Discipline = How Hard you can Figth. (Requier Big Army) Also Gud

[@LemonCake101]

That's fair!

[@crazeelazee7524]

It should be noted this mainly applies to MP games. In SP it's discipline all the way. AI rarely specs into either morale or discipline, so with >125% discipline you can pretty much melt your enemy's armies. I remember a pre-nerf Prussia game where with a 70k army I dealt half a million casualties to the catholic league because I just kept stackwiping them.

[@LemonCake101]

I mean I find in SP you don't really need either, but for sure I take Discipline advisor over Morale in SP more often then not.

[@crazeelazee7524]

​@@LemonCake101 I know this is preference but at this point most of my SP games are either meme builds or LARP. And Prussia is one of those countries that does both 😛

[@LibertyMonk]

Stacking only a single (positive) modifier is by definition a meme build because of diminishing returns. Stacking reductions is overpowered, 3 day siege ticks or 90% reduced AE is broken. But if the choice is to stack 30% morale from idea groups & advisors etc, or stack 20% discipline from the same, the discipline is the better idea, because you're already at 100 prestige, PP, and AT, and a Golden Age means diminishes returns from stacking morale % higher.

[@LemonCake101]

@@crazeelazee7524 no fair enough, and in SP you don't really need to build for either.

[@hiptoptoe4847]

I mean discipline modifiers are good for dealing damage but cannon only stacks are the far superior strat

[@LemonCake101]

Cannons OP confirmed

[@LemonCake101]

If you are interested in a Discipline or Morale Stacking guide, feel free to see them here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXe1e6F3msymea8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hoGbmWCrhb9soLc

[@sealking1775]

For a Morale Build i Would Recommend Teutonic order into Prussia (+20%), then Divine, Religious, Quantity & Defensive (+15%), policies are the Rel/Quantity (+10%) & Div/Rel (+10%), then with 100 prestige (+10%), 100 PP (+10%), 100 Army tradition (+25%) & defender of the faith (+5%) for a total of +105% Morale of Armies.

[@LemonCake101]

A nice one for sure, but at that point, you will be having a pretty decent supply from Prussia as well.

[@theorixlux2605]

Sometimes, our Lord posits questions unanswered for millenia such as "is there an afterlife?", "subbed or dubbed?", and even "moral or discipline?". And to the heathens that answered "no, dubbed, moral" i say to thee "DEUS VULT , LET US TEST THE METAL OF YOUR HERETIC IDOLS UPON THE FIELDS OF MY HOLY LAND IN OPEN COMBAT, VILE INFIDELES!"

[@LemonCake101]

A religious ideas enjoyer, I see.

[@plebisMaximus]

Could not disagree more. Hill of Megiddo at sunrise. Bring your own blade. I shall test your conviction in battle.

[@theorixlux2605]

@@plebisMaximus okay. I'ma spend the night at my friend emperor Alexios IV. That way I should be there in time for sunrise

[@LemonCake101]

@@plebisMaximus eh... no.

[@sealking1775]

For a Discipline build i would recommend *Gotland (+5%) into Prussia (+5%) to get the Prussian Government (+5% / 10%) and then go Offensive (+5%), Economic & Quality (+5%) then take the Eco/Quality policy (+5%) If you want to go beyond that i would recommend going to form Germany or Russia.

[@LemonCake101]

For sure, a Gotland start can also be great for an extra 5% until the end of the game.

[@civi4ever460]

Idea: how to stack enough monarch roll bonuses to guarantee a 6/6/6 monarch

[@LemonCake101]

You can't get there, but this was actually the first video I ever really did on the modifier stacking genre. If you want to see REALLY awful mic quality/editing, that video is your friend.

[@prestonmiller1198]

Love the higher production quality! Keep up the good work man!

[@LemonCake101]

Appreciate it thank you!

[@ehgolden6297]

Just found your channel, really fun euiv content, big thumbs up!

[@LemonCake101]

Ah thanks for the support!

[@alexandrugheorghe7974]

Love including the scene from Dacii in there.

[@LemonCake101]

Glad you noticed!

[@Hello-eq4db]

I like discipline just because I like seeing massive loss numbers in battle

[@LemonCake101]

That's fair, discipline is fun!

[@ondrejrichtr6835]

The sneaky outro sound, love it!! ❤

[@LemonCake101]

Glad you noticed!

[@NeXoN369]

I really appreciate the way you explain these things for smoothbrains like myself.

[@LemonCake101]

Don't nock yourself down, but thanks!

[@Dumdragoon]

as long as it gets you that sweet sweet W all is fine

[@LemonCake101]

As you yourself said, winning is all that matters ;)

[@meta671games]

In choise "extra moral or extra discipline" the keyword is EXTRA

[@alexandersen1987]

This was very helpful

[@LemonCake101]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@charliecharlotte360]

Hey guess what, its that time again, Algorithmic comment

[@LemonCake101]

Appreciate it!

[@davidcrotty9617]

Great quality video. Reminds me of a ruined campaign I had recently as Bosnia where the Ottomans popped the +20% Morale advisor event and their golden age on top of their usual bonuses in the initial war and 1v6'd myself, Poland-lith, and an Austria with Bohemian and Hungary. Let's just say that campaign was restarted.

[@LemonCake101]

Oh it can be annoying for sure when its the AI on the side of getting the fun buffs

[@HypercopeEmia]

I think it's also important to say that since both discipline and morale have the same amount of impact on morale demage stacking them both in equal amountas would lead to dealing more morale demage overall over a pure morale or pure discipline build

[@LemonCake101]

I don't think its exactly a 1 to 1 ratio, whatever that may be, I will need to double check the game files before I can really comment.

[@HypercopeEmia]

@@LemonCake101 well I'm going on numbers from the wiki but they may be outdated

[@SteliozJ]

ur goated Mr. Cake

[@LemonCake101]

Ah thanks!

[@Rayechel]

Seige ability build beats all tbh, good video btw!

[@LemonCake101]

Thanks! But siege ability loses to both - you cannot siege if your army is dead.

[@Noobmaster-of3xk]

I like focusing on getting disepline because i like making terminnator infantry that can wipe out anything in sight Also the ideas and missions that gives diepline almost always tend to give morale to so my amry is a hybrid of morale and disepline but prioretises disepline

[@LemonCake101]

A mix the best answer, but a focus on discipline also never goes amiss.

[@Taerus]

Great video. Succinct and funny

[@LemonCake101]

Appreciate it, thanks!

[@thebeardman7533]

I personally like running morale builds as Russia since you have so many men and can still get a decent amount of displine form orthodox and the mission tree

[@LemonCake101]

Russia is pretty strong on current patch for any build to be honest

[@thebeardman7533]

@@LemonCake101 true I also like stacking displine as Russia since you the you don't even need to many forts just because of the shear size of the provinces not as good as defenceble as the baltistan region tho

[@LemonCake101]

@@thebeardman7533 Fair enough, although with Russia I think you are big enough to just expand into defensive terrain.

[@the90thhunter92]

Russia also has 25% ICA from govt reform so you'd still hit hard even if you are doing a morale build as Russia

[@LemonCake101]

@@the90thhunter92 That is true I guess, but I find that more of a testimony to how Russia is OP in current patch, and less how morale builds overall behave.

[@anonguy6523]

Hey, saw a Reddit post about a person trying to overcome +300% liberty desire from development vassal. Not sure if you take video ideas, but have you thought of maximizing liberty desire reduction to see how much can be overcome?

[@LemonCake101]

Might be an interesting one to look at, but I find the AI doesn't ever really dev enough for that to be a problem in practice

[@RandomCasualPlayer]

Before starting, I want to clarify that I will be talking about MP Vanilla. In my opinion, at single-player, you don't need to fight a single battle; it's enough to scare the AI away from you usually (the first part of "IA Solution" shows how this can be done relatively easily). And for modded MP, it heavily depends on the specific mod. In my opinion, you forgot to mention the main reason why morale is so strong in this current patch and why it is considered a moral patch. Morale casualties taken by the backline. Since morale has a much bigger impact here than discipline or cuality in general, the side with more moral will force the cannons of the other side to leave the battle first, which will cause one side to do a lot of damage at the end of the battle. This is especially bad if the side with no cannons doesn't notice and forgets to reinforce stacks with cannons. Also, if one side does not have cannons, this means they will do less damage, and the cannons of the enemy will stay in the battle for a longer time, creating a snowball effect. Ironically, this mecanic can make, under the right circumstances, morale more important in causing casualties than discipline. Even in a battle where both sides manage to reinforce perfectly and have the same troops but one side has more moral, and the other more discipline (5 disipline vs 10 moral difference; usually moral are given by the game in bigger numbers), more moral means the cannons from the other side will eventually retreat first, and at that point the other side will have to abandon the battle manually or suffer a lot of losses.

[@LemonCake101]

Oh for sure, in SP when you are good enough to scare the AI away, and you know what you are doing, the strongest modifier is 'core creation cost' and the greatest military buff is 'take tech ahead of time'. As for the morale backrow damage: yes. That is a big reason as to why it is a morale patch, but I felt like starting to get into Morale backrow damage may be an unnecessary addition to an already pretty long video with a simple question/answer: you want both. Another reason that really buffs moral is they added morale damage received as a modifier, and hence reworked how morale was calculated, which ended up buffing morale bonuses compared to discipline, which also helped this become a 'morale' patch.

[@supro3415]

trade goods, and prod. efficiency build + how is it calculated in production income pretty please?

[@LemonCake101]

The TLDR is there is a base value called goods produced, you get 0.2 per production dev. This value is then multiplied by goods produced % modifiers, like 10% from ideas. The final value is then multiplied by the production efficiency to get the production income. As for making a modifier stacking video on it, I did goods produced already, production efficiency may not be that interesting though.

[@micahbonewell5994]

One factor absent from the video is that additive bonuses become weaker the more of them you have. So one: You want to pursue both discipline and morale bonuses rather than pursuing only one. Two: You want to pursue discipline over morale as there are far fewer natural source of discipline. Prestige + PP + Army tradition + DotF + Golden Era = 60% morale of armies that's before Ideas, national ideas, religious buffs, government reforms, or advisors Therefore any buffs you get after those will be less effective than an equivalent discipline buff. Therefore in your national ideas, ideas, religious buffs and advisors you should prefer discipline buffs. As they are harder to get and therefore more effective.

[@LemonCake101]

Additive bonuses to become weaker, that is correct, which is why I still stand by the 'you need both' although that is more of a debate for another day. But yeah, discipline is for sure harder to get 'generically'.

[@JK-qi7pp]

Even in MP there are the rare instances in which mercenary builds are viable and of course colonial builds. If you are playing in any lobby where colonies have free choice of ideas there is nothing more fun than having one of your colonial nations play a build fully focused on siege ability. You can fully focus on discipline, while your large colonial nations will do moral plus manpower builds and then have your California or whatever do siege ability. For single player there is also the forbidden tech of going the full naval build with sailors instead of manpower. It's surprisingly good for a few patches already.

[@LemonCake101]

Marine builds are honestly a touch more viable now, especially with the shock damage being reduced to +10% instead of the 25%, so that is something to consider there.

[@user-jh8xg2yg1q]

My opinion. Mercenary build is the strongest build right. It just merk + infro is better then quality + eco for 90 % of countries.

[@LemonCake101]

@@user-jh8xg2yg1q it can be quite strong, I just find you run out of merc companies.

[@BobbiusRossius]

@@LemonCake101 And mercs can be a bit janky with attaching cannon stacks to them They really need to make them mergeable

[@LemonCake101]

@@BobbiusRossius the old merc system was quite simple, you could build merc infantry/cannons/horses that where more expensive but used 'merc manpower' which was infinite. Very powerful, but it meant you could avoid using manpower if you wanted.

[@syarifagathon4809]

imo any country that can get bonus to manpower or sailor (if you can use marine) should go for morale stacking of course don't ignore other combat modifier if you can get them

[@LemonCake101]

Eh, I mean neglecting either is a bad idea, but for sure Morale is nice if you have the manpower to back up the losses.

[@sasi5841]

What was you uni major? Its definitely something that required taking a calc2 course i am assuming. So either CompSci, any Engineering, Physics, or statistics.

[@LemonCake101]

None of the ones you mentioned, but I did have to do all the fun Calculus stuff, and more.

[@rimanpele]

the philosophers in the thumb should be parmenides and heraclitus though

[@LemonCake101]

I am sure they aren't going to be too offended to be left out. Maybe in another video!

[@timelordomega5914]

9:56 Considering that these are the upsides, wouldn't it make the most sense to make use of Cav as once you have a number's advantage on the front line, you can start stacking up damage on the outside units?

[@LemonCake101]

Oh for sure, but how to use Cav, and why Cav is really underestimate in the community (even outside Hordes) is another video on its own.

[@jarvee9407]

I find that morale doesn't do much unless you have substantialy more of it than enemy or way less.

[@LemonCake101]

True. Well, a 5% morale swing in absolute terms is much smaller when its 3.15 vs 3.0 moral when comparing to say a 5% discipline swing of 105% to 100.

[@LibertyMonk]

The biggest reason you want both is because stacking positive % modifiers to the same bonus are additive with each other. Why go for your 6th 10% morale when you could instead go for your first 5% discipline or manpower etc.

[@LemonCake101]

Oh for sure: honestly I am thinking about making a video discussing additive bonuses vs reduction bonuses, and how one scales better then the other.

[@lesnoyelf228]

Ok but what advisor to get when I'm microing sniping 1-6k stacks with my 20k army in the first 10-15 years of the game? Like when fighting Moscow as Novgorod in 1445

[@nunyobibnes7822]

Morale I would say.

[@LemonCake101]

Early war like that on the open? Morale, Losing battles hurts more then 500/600 extra casualties, and those are higher limit numbers.

[@Kobzar69420]

after my eranshahr campaign where i singlehandedly won ottomans (400k troops) with 100k troops but 135% discipline, im going with it but i dont think u really stack either morale or discipline. with high discipline i also had high morale automatically, but maybe its just cuz of the nations i played (eranshahr, branderburg/prussia/germany)

[@LemonCake101]

Those nations to have Morale buffs to be fair, with 15% and 20%, and since Morale kind of stacks 'when you are doing well' (high prestige, high power projection) that can certainly happen.

[@Kobzar69420]

well, then i guess im just not a complete noob lol@@LemonCake101

[@LemonCake101]

@@Kobzar69420 oh don't worry about that, ive seen player being a lot worse.

[@vladislavkorol902]

btw does ai considers merc discipline in decision making?

[@LemonCake101]

most likely yes, but I can't confirm it.

[@taoflo8015]

Morale is like a health bar and discopline is the amount of damage

[@LemonCake101]

Pretty much, discipline does also effect damage received though.

[@kylewright7596]

This relating to troop quality, can we look forward to a video talking about how important it is to fill out ideas or change tactics based on your tech group/tech group you are fighting? I know there is a lot of videos talking about what units are the best at each tech for the different tech groups but im sure newer players would be looking for tips to counter the ottoman’s bs unit pips.

[@LemonCake101]

It would be an interesting one to consider, but honestly I feel like if I want to go all in on combat guides, well we will end up with a 4 hour documentary.

[@craigstephenson7676]

I prefer discipline for sp because it’s a more efficient use of manpower, reducing casualties in battle. High morale can end up draining your manpower if you’re not careful. That little bit of extra manpower can go a long way. Of course, I appreciate any moral buff I get, and either way I almost never take mil ideas before the third group. It’s pretty much always dip/influence/espionage into admin/religious for me

[@LemonCake101]

Well, certainly a preference, but for sure I can't deny discipline is 'fun'. But in SP you should only take ideas that help you overcome barriers to your goals, and if you goals are to blob, I would wager that dip/influence/espionage/admin are more helpful then a pure military buff, for sure.

[@sonwig5186]

I go discipline because I like the roleplay. I also never slacken recruitment :D

[@LemonCake101]

Honestly understandable, high discipline is fun for sure!

[@mitchellmeijers5710]

Stack Fort Maintenance cost, stack Fort Defense, stack Garrison Size. With the Power of Defensive Ideas, Infrastructure Ideas, the policy from both, Noble Castle Rights government reform and the Nobles Privilege for the fort and rampart in provinces, you can easily afford a very defendable fort in every province, with a massive garrison that will dissuade any and all breeches and assaults; as the garrisons damage scales off of local defensiveness. Rampart for that +1 dice roll and attrition; the meme-levels of attrition. And the funniest of them all; every fort you take from the enemy, becomes a living nightmare for the enemy to retake.

[@LemonCake101]

True. Shame they removed Ramparts being buildable on the 'fun' provinces...

[@mitchellmeijers5710]

@@LemonCake101 You mean mountain, highlands, forest, and hill provinces? You can build Ramparts with full benefits in them still as they did not implement that proposed change.

[@snipolate4410]

sisterhood as france+french morale stuff=135% discipline and 10 morale by tech 26 which is super useful (sisterhood gives 5% discipline and a 10% land fire buff which is really useful aswell as it being a theocracy having insane morale buffs meaning that most nations are gonna go from 200k men to 20k really fast good video tho didn't know some stuff in it

[@LemonCake101]

No for sure, the sisterhood is an interesting government type that isn't talked about a lot, in fact I believe it actually lost the 5% discipline it used to have (or maybe other government types give more, I remember looking into this when discipline stacking)

[@snipolate4410]

@@LemonCake101 Found out it was a mod that gave them 5% discipline and 10% fire damage (legacy of the maiden) still incredibly useful with the +3 military mana points and theocracies being able to inflict disproportionate morale damage due to certain reforms. However, noone will want to stick around for the age of absolutism just to get it in base game

[@LemonCake101]

@@snipolate4410 ah fair enough, yeah mods can be pretty trigger happy with modifiers.

[@ishatmypants]

Wow, it's Kaiser EU4 in the video! Hasn't seen him upload since his Balkan countries and Byzantium guides. Hope he's doing alright.

[@LemonCake101]

I like to think so! He is still around on discords and things to be fair.

[@JosefZeethuven]

Discipline is undoubtedly the better build out of the 2 here. but only because morale is easier to get than discipline. so going the discipline allows you to have a multiplicative effect.

[@LemonCake101]

Well, as I said throughout the video: you do want both, for sure.

[@autaribarina7320]

When play morale build I like go Theocracy and take divine ideas for more manpower and another 10% from policies and government reform.

[@LemonCake101]

Fair enough, theocracies are pretty underrated to be fair!

[@therealmcromano319]

What about Zoroastrian Persia with Quality/Economic/Offensive/Defensive/Religious/Quality?

[@LemonCake101]

Zoro Persia for MP tbh is already pretty much a free win due to the admin points printing, also you said quality twice there chief.

[@therealmcromano319]

@@LemonCake101 I meant quantity for the last one

[@LemonCake101]

@@therealmcromano319 I mean if you are 7 ideas in MP, well everyone has taken every single Mil group by that point, so basically everyone is pretty much on an equal footing.

[@torgomaghanyan7633]

Considering new update full defensivnes if way to go now. You can stuck around 250 in Caucasus playing as Theocratic Armenia with afghan ideas ) you don’t need to fight if enemy will die out before it’s reaches you )

[@LemonCake101]

Be careful though, fort assaulting is really free on current patch so a player could really abuse that against a build like this.

[@torgomaghanyan7633]

@@LemonCake101 but not ai )

[@LemonCake101]

@@torgomaghanyan7633 no, but you don't really need any mil buffs against AI I find, they really struggle to put up a fight a lot of the time.

[@torgomaghanyan7633]

@@LemonCake101 well I don’t like microwave the armyes so I usually take 2-3 mil ideas

[@LemonCake101]

@@torgomaghanyan7633 no fair enough, in SP after all the best 'meta' is whatever you find fun.

[@nevets2371]

You forgot about the manpower build, doesn’t matter how good the enemy troops are if you have 100x as many

[@LemonCake101]

Both tags need manpower is the long and short of it, that just a given.

[@ps-qw1up]

What about combat ability?

[@LemonCake101]

That effects damage dealt, so its basically discipline without reducing casualties recieved.

[@leaflotus6726]

Me love crush weak nations fast, me bankroll all of Europe to isolate French, me think peacefully integrating german states takes to long Me wondering why i started as croatia, formed dalmatia (then formed croatia again but dal ideas and culture) then form byzantium then form hre or Rome (croatia can easily join empire) only to become disillusioned by big state and become isolationist for 100 years.

[@LemonCake101]

That's a quite a journey

[@larochejaquelein3680]

Wow Taylor series in EU4 😅 Engineer math classes finally paid off

[@LemonCake101]

Finally, a use of an engineering degree!

[@yamameeven967]

I really dont think this is a debate, you just go for both, its not that hard, i understand how they work ..The real question is..Infantry combat ability or Discipline?

[@LemonCake101]

Oh discipline, ICA only increases damage dealt, and late game artillery is doing most of the damage anyway.

[@VivaChandles]

Discipline is better for burning through your enemies’ insane manpower for late game and drugs are better for keeping for morale up the whole game

[@LemonCake101]

I wish you could give your troops the second option in game, unfortunately the best we have is a golden age :(

[@SpicyFiur]

So... my Ally with a 10k stack thinks he has a chance to win against this 30k stack with a 3* General?

[@LemonCake101]

Generals are part of the calculation, in fact you can 'troll' the AI by removing your general, letting the AI lock in, and then assigning a general last second.

[@doudline2662]

I'm low conscientiousness and don't like cosplaying, so morale it is.

[@LemonCake101]

Understandable, have a nice day.

[@simonking2150]

8:23 field priests, not "field soldiers"

[@LemonCake101]

^ fair enough, I do slip up here and there

[@Ratich]

Morale wins you battles discipline wins you wars combat ability kills more

[@LemonCake101]

Overall for sure, but be careful you don't run out of country if you are losing battles.

[@ModCraftServer]

Discipline is superior because it also increases tactics.

[@LemonCake101]

Well, yes, but I find that's kinda it main thing.

[@lucasaguirre5569]

alr

[@LemonCake101]

👀

[@BobbiusRossius]

Honestly, its crazy how busted zoroastrian persia is, great mil quality, 20% manpower in true faith provinces, you get the persian rug mission for absurd economy snowballing (more valuable than coal for 50 years lmao) and your a pain in the ass to fight lol

[@LemonCake101]

Oh for sure I think combined with the free dev button atm Persia is among the strongest if not the strongest MP tags

[@BobbiusRossius]

@@LemonCake101The biggest challenge with persia is what idea build do you take lmao? You have everything you need built in Hell, they even get dev cost reduction on mountains and hills from an estate Its power creep out the ass lmao

[@LemonCake101]

@@BobbiusRossius I mean, the more the merrier! In MP you take standart stuff and whatever build you follow Persia has you covered. Its not a jack of all trades, it is just strait up a master of all.

[@BobbiusRossius]

@@LemonCake101yeah honestly its probably the best tag at the moment its even funnier to form it as timurids, not like any mp game would allow that

[@LemonCake101]

@@BobbiusRossiusI think Timmy isn't allowed or is heavily nerfed in most MP's to be fair. But yeah I mean again the 6 dev for some dip button is pretty overpowered too.

[@jonmarkusringen1067]

The true answer is neither. All you need is enough men. You can be 5 techs behind and still win as long as you have enough men and reinforce correctly. But who wants to micro manage their troops, especially in places like Siberia.

[@LemonCake101]

Manpower is a separate debate: and it’s not really a debate, you need it.

[@anti-spiral159]

I think I just made a 5 year skip time in this channel lol

[@LemonCake101]

I am doing my best!

[@anti-spiral159]

@@LemonCake101 It shows! I hope it becomes a big hit

[@LemonCake101]

@@anti-spiral159 I can only hope too!

[@denizmergen418]

what about tactics

[@LemonCake101]

Mainly modified by discipline, so kind of that team if that makes sense

[@FogoPQ]

Discipline is for standing strong Morale is for standing long Right?

[@LemonCake101]

There is more to it I would say but that is pretty much 80% of the way there.

[@yamameeven967]

I am actually shocked! You didnt show a single battle after you did everything, also no actual gameplay?? This whole video was like an intro to a much longer video, dissapointed! (not gonna dislike dw 😂 it was still very interesting)

[@LemonCake101]

Well, it was more of an analysis of the concept!

[@jaksongraham9516]

E

[@LemonCake101]

That is a throwback!

[@donaldtrumplover2254]

this is still a debate? It is as easy as morale is generally better early game while discipline is better late game. As Romania I had 145% discipline and it allowed me to crush any army pretty much 10-1 without a any morale advantage against majors like Russia, Austria, Prussia, France, and the Ottomans.

[@LemonCake101]

Well, people certainly still ask, and to answer your question, well watch the video. 145% Discipline is pretty impressive for sure, but if you don't have the manpower to back that up you will eventually fall behind.

[@pelinalwhitestrake3367]

Discipline armies as Russia are super-good. Sure, they aren't as powerful as Prussian, but Prussia has like 1-3 armies, and I have 10 and enough manpower to wage war against half of Europe for decades.

[@LemonCake101]

For sure, I mean the main message is: you need manpower, whatever you are doing.

[@jonmarkusringen1067]

​@@LemonCake101after watching the grandest lan I learned that mercs can be really powerful. You can stack merc discipline with normal discipline, you also basically never run out of manpower and you can get merc militarization. And you can drill mercs with merc ideas and stay at 100% army professionalism. And the merc generals are even better. And almost every merc company gets their own general so you get so many generals without paying for upkeep. All you have to do is supplement with artillery mid to late game.

[@LemonCake101]

@@jonmarkusringen1067 mercs can be... interesting to build around, the issue is I would recommend you don't assume what Greastest Lan is = what is best. A merc build dies to someone with 300 FL and a couple million manpower in reserves since you just can't have 300k worth of mercs in the field without a lot of merc companies being modded in, and that's ignoring army quality/composition among other things.

[@jonmarkusringen1067]

@@LemonCake101 I'm fully aware the grandest lan isn't always meta, but there are a lot of meta play in there unfortunaly. I wish it were more rp. Besides eu is a sandbox so everything depends on personal goals. But in grandest lan Livonian order won against france with mercs. They won the attritional war due to higher discipline on the mercs from double militarization and a larger manpower pool from the mercs.

[@LemonCake101]

No fair enough, just saying from a personal experience, merc builds work for the first idea group, so you open merc and have a stab at someone, past the first idea set when a conventional tag can establish themselves with at least 3 ideas, they really fall off. I won't know about the Greatest Lan, I didn't watch the last one.

[@baseupp12]

Both are improtant but are still inferior to the true King Siege Ability.

[@LemonCake101]

The ultimate tactic, siege out the enemy before he notices you are at war

[@nikolaitregouet]

I mean… Taking defensive ideas is really cringe, so discipline is the way to go, at least in single player. Manpower will be ok by 1550 or so, provided you know what to state vs TC and which provinces to dev.

[@user-jh8xg2yg1q]

U are right Defense idea is bad for the 1.33 . But now Defensive is pretty good especially with eco and court. Its not stronger than quality its different.

[@nikolaitregouet]

@@user-jh8xg2yg1q honestly, the ideas themselves suck apart from the 15% morale. Whereas in offensive or quality almost all ideas are very useful. Even aristo is better. Why do I need to attrition my enemies when I can out-siege and out-fight them?..

[@LemonCake101]

Defensive isn't that bad, but you shouldn't really open it imo: its quite nice as 5th or 6th since to be honest I am a big fan of the 30% re-enforcement rate.

[@nikolaitregouet]

@@LemonCake101 ok, but why would I even unlock it if there are objectively better idea groups to take as 5th or 6th?.. I mean they are not as bad as naval or maritime, but I would take quantity as my third mil group over defensive any day

[@LemonCake101]

@@nikolaitregouet I meant more in MP, defensive is nice 5th. In SP you should not take any mil ideas really, maybe quantity/offensive for the FL to get early mil Hegemon.