Whiskey Flippers Are the WORST! BRT 233

[@jlb9074]

Let’s be fair about this. I agree it’s about supply and demand. I’m not happy with flippers whether it’s individuals or the actual retail store. I agree with everything being said here. But, there is an ecosystem that drives demand - e.g. whisky tube influencers hype a bottle to create demand. Distillers allocate and release limited editions that tighten supply. This creates the opportunity for flippers, retail gougers, and the secondary. And then there’s the taters who’ll pay the high cost.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

So what is the solution, taking into consideration human nature and that people will not set their own desires aside for the good of the group.

[@jlb9074]

There really isn’t a simple solution - you’re deep in the industry - so you know every possible solution comes with significant downsides. That said, to bring down prices, either supply has to increase or demand has to decrease. My personal solution, I will admit, is universally hated. I believe the best way to address it is to take away the profit from the flippers. To do this, distillers need to price their product consistent with current secondary prices. In the long run, this provides capital to distillers to increase their supply of desirable product in the future. And, it will take the profitability away from flippers. We won’t eliminate influencers who hype bottles. So I have little hope that hype and FOMO will dissipate and cause a decrease in demand. The downside is obvious - prices rise for everyone until supply increases. I’m seeing some distillers toy with this on certain releases, and I’m curious to see how that impacts flippers and distillers.

[@jhamlin726]

Randy isn't being unfair.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

@@jlb9074 I agree with you logical capitalistic solution, but there is a variable that makes it impossible for all distilleries to implement. That variable is the lead time it takes to make more supply. If you are BT and you pull the trigger on 1.3 billion in financing to increase supply in 8-25 years, and you kill your demand with price increases, you bankrupt yourself when supply hits the market and you don't have customers for it. So when you see a distillery raising prices (like wild turkey) ask if they have additional capacity coming that would hurt them after the increase hits, and you will see the answer is no. For those that would be hurt, they are keeping prices relatively flat, only increasing NOT to current market equilibrium, but to what they expect would be market equilibrium after new capacity hits.

[@jlb9074]

In economics, it’s always about supply and demand. There is no solution unless those who are driving demand up change their behaviors if you don’t want increased supply. So, then let’s just settle in to more of the same. My point about this being an ecosystem is that everyone in the industry is looking for someone else to change in order to ameliorate the situation. But if no one changes their practices, there is no fix. Kind of a bummer, but that’s where we’re at.

[@luckyspag1346]

I can’t stand the stores trying to rip off the customers

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I have been a vocal opponent of price gouge stores.

[@dbealby]

9 of 10 stores I walk into have "allocated" bottles listed at a mark up. Flippers arent buying those and "flipping" them. The store is the issue in my area. Furthermore, the store owners now claim the distributor requires the store to buy minimum of a brand (Saz), so the distributor is an issue.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

This video covers the details of all you are talking about: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q6vMfGt_qbCEg7M

[@TheWhiskeyRambler]

#flipperssuck I refuse to pay secondary and I also refuse to shoot at the stores that sell very much above MSRP. There will probably be a lot of bottles I will never have.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

If you are looking for flavor you don't need to hunt. Hunting is for something other than just flavor.

[@robertshay9235]

I enjoy trading bottles. Makes it fun especially when both parties make out. Cheers

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I see no problem with that.

[@danmccarty6193]

I couldn't find Eagle Rare 10 year to save my life where I lived in Florida. And anyone who had one to sell near me always proved to be a typical flipper. When I moved to Georgia, Eagle Rare was in almost every store. And for $40. We're all in the same boat. Just different ponds. I personally have accepted the fact that I will most likely never get the chance to own an O.F.C Vintage or Van Winkle 23 year. Even my trip to Louisville this year didn't help because I wasn't willing to pay the crazy cost for a 1-ounce pour just to taste them. It's ok. I have more than enough that I love right here in my own backyard. No need for flippers! Keep up the awesome content guys.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Will do! I got offered an OFC one time at retail, and I had to turn it down. That is an expensive bottle.

[@barnardcs100]

In my experiece ALL of the high prices originate at the independant liqour stores. ALL of them mark up prices like crazy.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Not all, but it has become a problem. Unfortunately the wholesalers and producers are prohibited by law from doing something about it.

[@jmartinez4460]

I’ve heard from a store owner that the distributor told them what they could/should sell a certain bottle/s because they are making them buy a lot of less popular products in order to get certain things. Idk who is to blame but no one is innocent in this problem. Some or all distilleries are using products to sell cheaper products.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I cover this subject in these videos: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q6vMfGt_qbCEg7M kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWKsnGOIect8fsU

[@frankrivera1666]

I’m new to bourbon and the area where I live, it’s really hard to find certain bourbons or it’s ridiculously expensive. When I do get the opportunity to acquire an allocated bourbon, I sometimes buy an extra bottle, especially if it’s one that I really enjoy drinking.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

We are glad to have you as part of the community. Have you seen this? It might help: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3famqqge5uCkJo

[@Miller_man]

I feel like there’s a limit to your “ bourbon bucks” scenario.. with say Blantons or eagle rare.. it’s occasionally findable on the shelf. But there are those who buy the whole lot knowing they are going to trade it all for a bigger bottle.. mean while someone who just wants one to drink can’t get it because you bought them all . I have a problem with that to. do you agree?

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Yes, If I have an open and a bunker of a bottle like Blanton's or Weller 12, and a store offers me one, I pass. I tell them to use it to reward another loyal customer.

[@waynefialo9492]

Secondary pricing sucks. But what you said about people from the liquor stores working with them is the worst. I hate walking into a store that I hear got a delivery of something to be told they sold out, but someone who works there offering to sell me theirs for 3 X's the price.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I bet if the store owner knew about that they would get fired!

[@darrellsimon235]

Liquor stores in my area rarely get allocated bottles so flipping isn't really a thing here. That being said, it does suck when a clerk at the store tells you he has a friend who is a "collector" and just bought 7 of the 8 EH Taylor Single Barrels the store received. #flipperssuck

[@WhiskyForBeginners]

If the clerk's doing that the least he could do is not grind it in.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Most stores don't allow this, but the ones that do chap my hide.

[@buffalowhiskey8553]

No samples needed, you guys provide enough content to stir those away from doing so. Love the content and keep up the good work, I have been collecting since 2008 and hate that the prices have gotten to the place they are. Would love to share a glass together one day and look forward to the opportunity.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Look forward to the opportunity as well. Best of luck to you!

[@nickp5511]

All the individual stores around me overcharge. Example Stagg 350.00-550.00 ET Lee 450.00-650.00 Parkers Heritage 900.00

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Those stores do not get my money.

[@r2skyvader]

There is a problem with the supply and demand concept when price is not allowed to fluctuate with given demand. Take Stagg for instance. If BT would let the price rise to match demand, there would be more tax revenue, less demand, and dis-incentivize flippers because the margins would not be there. However, I get BT’s long term philosophy in that they will have to lower prices when production increases, which would be bad marketing. BTW, I recently left a bottle of ETL on the shelf because I don’t care for the juice and left it for someone wanting it more.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Sounds like you have a better grasp on the concept than most, it's cool of you to have left the bottle for someone else too. Cheers.

[@Rocky-cx6qz]

Went to buy a bottle of prideful goat at total wine. At $65 its a no Brainer. At $110 plus tax I'll wait it out. Maybe a try before you buy now idk. Everything is being priced secondary. Wild turkeys camp Nelson non age stated at $300 after tax . Generations at $500, mid winter at $150 . Let's see what this tariff does in January

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Buy TPG online. It is cheaper. There was a wholesaler who has an import division that sold some TPG bottles to TWM in states we don't have a wholesaler. They took wholesale profit, import profit, and then the wholesaler took profit, so by the time TWM got the bottles and added their margin the bottles were nearly double SRP. I have noticed that distilleries that did not increase capacity are starting to test pricing limits, which is the good capitalist thing to do. As long as they don't chase off their customers for their everyday products they are likely making a wise business decision.

[@robertharper2158]

Big Ditto on every word in this episode. Thanks Randy & Wes!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Just wait until the flippers see this. Comments are going to be 🔥

[@robertharper2158]

@@BourbonRealTalk I can't stand them. I'm sure they will be butthurt!

[@RingerDaClown]

Thing I hate more than flippers. Are liquor stores that charge secondary market prices. Buffalo Trace shouldn't cost me $50 at a liquor store.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Agreed!

[@MichaelSullivanCincinnatux]

Another solid video, gents! I tend not to get too worked up over flippers. I have no interest in socializing with them because they're more interested in discussing market values of bottles and I am more interested in talking about flavor profiles and whiskey news in general. Having flippers who scoop up all the rare bottles is frustrating but I can't stop them from doing what they do and I can still find tasty stuff sitting on the shelf so I'm good. I agree with your argument that flippers are toxic to a healthy marketplace, but I think they're going to fade quite a bit in the next 5 to 10 years as the market levels out and people tire of overpaying for bottles. Flippers are a byproduct of a market out of balance. In the meantime I have better things to do with my time than dwell on broken things I can't repair. Slainte!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Could not have said it better myself!

[@gamercs21]

For sure I agree with the comments in this video. It's super frustrating to see local places offer up prices that are clearly just secondary+ #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thank you for watching!

[@jameslenaburg4378]

What about people that see something new on the shelf and buy THREE bottles? Store doesn't limit but it's a relatively unusual and not common bottle? They going to drink it or? How do even know if they like it if it's a new Single Barrel? 😮

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I can't fault the person who bunker's a bottle that isn't allocated. If the store doesn't limit it to one, and the stock is there I just see that as people spending their money they way they like.

[@Mojoe70]

I see the mark ups all the time, mostly with the Buffalo Trace stuff. I have seen Stagg Jr as high as $500, EH Taylor for $200, Eagle Rare for $125. Also seen Pappy 23 for $4,000. It's crazy

[@Mojoe70]

Btw #flippers suck!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I hate museum stores!

[@ericpevey2636]

Not only flippers but those retailers that price gouge. Love the video, keep 'em coming!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thanks! Will do!

[@nribaudo255]

Interesting perspective on the situation, many things I align well with. It's an ongoing problem and many of us have contributed one way or another...

[@BourbonRealTalk]

That is fair!

[@williamjoiner8840]

I will never buy on secondary market even if it means I only drink OWA or EHT by the glass at a bar.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

It is a noble stand!

[@steveno7058]

Gotta be honest. The problem is the demand side not supply. Too many people are willing to pay stupid prices for allocated bottles. Flippers are just taking advantage of the situation. The only solution is for people to stop overpaying for corn juice

[@BourbonRealTalk]

You are right, but getting millions of people to put their own interest aside for the benefit of the community as a whole goes against human nature, so all my recommendations to solve the problem try to account for that.

[@ChefsResources]

I have a 60 mile daily commute to work and have found about 7 stores along the route that I visit almost every week because they get allocated products. All of them raise the MSRP by at least 100% (think Stagg Jr) or 1000% (Pappy anything). At least I've been able to find things like EH Taylor BP and Russels 13 at prices I'm willing to pay for great juice. But the bottles you have on the table are always $1,000+ in my area, so yeah, #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Sorry to hear that. I would suggest you keep looking, but I keep hearing this same thing from people in different areas of the country.

[@gfrank9772]

One of the greatest feelings is loving a bourbon that either the community underrates or “dislikes”. It’ll just sit on the shelf and you can grab it when you want. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

If you are drinking for flavor alone, this is not a hard thing to accomplish!

[@TheZinnmaster]

I agree with what you said. I love how Bourbon Outfitters has Weller Special Reserve for $89.99. 🤦🏼‍♂️ #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Not a fan of that pricing!

[@CarlosTorres-cw6bj]

What's better than bonding with friends and family over good bourbon? It sucks that so much good bourbon is so hard to get, but I'm grateful for the good stuff that remains on shelves. Great show, thanks! #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Truth is there is always plenty of good bourbon available on the shelves!

[@anthonyavila4027]

I love going on the hunt to walk into a store and seeing a bottle I've been looking for on the shelf or behind the counter and getting the price , than making the decision on buying it or not . I have never bought from a flipper and never will ,but most of the stores here in southeastern Massachusetts get allocated bottles and price them at secondary anyway so flipper needed. For the first time I couldn't get Elijah Craig c923 because of flippers and it flames my ass when I can walk into a store and find any of the older ones just sitting there and because some ass clown thinks he can make fast money I'm losing out on one of my top five favorites

[@BourbonRealTalk]

That sucks! Hopefully you find one, but as the days tick by it is less likely. Maybe a store held some back for a big christmas release or something.

[@stuartrollings602]

Howdy Randy! Nice show and only flip into my glass! By the way I have bought two Prideful Goat Ryes and 1 bourbon. Like em both. This week I got another Rye and it had dropped from 69 to 39 at Total Wine…what gives? Market or corporate decision ?

[@BourbonRealTalk]

It is very complicated. My wholesaler (who we fired) gave specialized pricing to TWM's competitor, and charged max price to TWM. The competitor cut their price, and TWM had to cut their price. They were not making money. They put is in a disadvantageous location on the shelf, and stopped their staff from promoting it. We got discontinued, and they are clearance selling their inventory. The new wholesaler should have it back in stores next year, with more than just the rye.

[@stuartrollings602]

@@BourbonRealTalk the joys of retail…too many middlemen…thanks and be well!

[@jmarcum75]

I live in KY and there are very few stores that sell at MSRP and the ones that do you have to be a “buddy” to get them. It drives me nuts how they price this stuff.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Sorry to hear that! We are lucky in TX to still have some stores that use bottles to build relationships.

[@jmarcum75]

@@BourbonRealTalk I’ll be traveling to San Antonio in the next few weeks for work and hope to hit up some places there. Any stores there you would know of that would be a good spot? Definitely looking for a Prideful Goat in its natural habitat while I’m there.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

@@jmarcum75 You should be able to find a TPG. Spec's is a good source. Total Wine might have it on sale.

[@rsvpurgt]

Great talk. Whiskey has never been as expensive as it is now. It's not just because of inflation either. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

So true! Cheers!

[@MarkDuff-o8v]

I absolument refuse to pay secondary market prices. There are a lot of great whiskeys out there without the outrageous prices. I occasionally find the good hard to find stuff at MSRP and don’t mind at all to pay that. I wish the ATF would crack down on these “flippers”

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Sadly, there are not enough resources for them to investigate these transactions.

[@ryguy6974]

If everything was easily obtained then there would be less fun in celebrating the hunt. There would be less enthusiasm around bourbon. However I am hopeful it will be a little easier to get those allocated bottles in the future.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I agree. I got to pick up a Parker Heritage yesterday, and the joy I felt was ridiculous!

[@Just4funinthesun]

You guys rock, I hate flippers, they suck for the little guys that just want to taste, sip, and tell stories as they enjoy good whiskey. Whiskey is for sharing and enjoying. There will always be more great whiskey coming out of some wonderful distilleries.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Great outlook!

[@lfd_eng9219]

#flipperssuck The problem impacts all of us. Never thought about the taxes being missed...and like everyone else, not a fan of paying them, but they are a necessity! Yes, it would be great if everyone would stop paying the ridiculous prices...even had a very short discussion with a liquor store owner wanting $700 for Stagg, $150 for Blanton's, and $99 for Eagle 10...told him the MSRP is way lower and that those prices were ridiculous...and those that pay them are foolish. Won't be back there again! Thanks for keeping it real!!! Cheers and happy holidays all!!!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I give zero dollars to price gouge stores.

[@jesusjones3014]

I don't blame the flippers... I blame the people who pay secondary prices. If they would hold steady and drink rare breed/of 1910 or 20 till they find msrp allocated bottles the flippers would have no demand! Prices would go down. I don't mind trading though but valuations can be "flipping" if they over value their bottle which happens all the time.

[@DD-lf2ew]

Some of us want stuff other than the shelfers. Here it’s often get lucky in a lotto or camp out for multiple days to get a bottle without paying secondary. I’ll enter the lottos and hope for the best on the “sale” price but full expect to pay secondary value for stuff

[@BourbonRealTalk]

People paying secondary are not "idiots". Do you think it makes sense for Elon Musk to camp outside a store for 3 days to get a bottle of pappy 23. Everyone's situation is different, and I try to hold space for others who are doing what they do and not harming anyone.

[@jesusjones3014]

@@BourbonRealTalk regardless, secondary buyers inflate prices and it hurts 98% of the community. Really, Elon and a 300 msrp bottle as an example? Lol. For Elon a 30,000 dollar bottle is a waste of time. He could buy 8 million 30,000 dollar bottles.

[@MrFreethinkin]

i’m in an area that has nothing but secondary on the shelves and flippers run rampant. it seems everything is a unicorn, but it’s led me down the store pick path. i do get fomo on some of the stuff but have learned to appreciate the ones available. thanks for helping curb this problem! #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Of course. As someone who gets to taste most things, the truth is a good store pick is so close to as good as the best allocated items, that it isn't worth worrying about. That is, unless your motivation for owning the bottle is something other than chasing the best flavor, an then all bets are off regarding allocated bottles.

[@mR_LoPeZ86]

Down with all these darn Flippers. Love the channel sir. Cheers🥃

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@Brendon321]

Flippers absolutely do suck. Here in Ohio, we had a massive big ticket drop yesterday (12/09) and since yesterday, I have personally seen 12 people post Weller CYPB for $550. That being said, FLIPPERS SUCK!!! I was able to get an OHLQ Rittenhouse Rye B-i-B, which I am thrilled about, but just to know that the store I went to got 18 CYPB and there's no telling how many we actually got in my area, but 12 people have them listed for $550...it's just sickening. Thank you gents for making this video, the news needs to get out!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Control states can be great because you can get products as MSRP but the downside is that they are powerless to get them into the hands that deserve them.

[@Brendon321]

Amen to that. I have several friends in my local whiskey club who have wanted to own their own Eagle Rare, Antique 107, Stagg, etc. but flippers make it near impossible. I was able to get an Antique 107 for a friend recently, and that's been my only luck in OH. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact I "can" get these bottles at or close to MSRP, but it is so difficult to get them before the flippers do. They have made it a full-blown job, not a hobby...

[@BourbonRealTalk]

@@Brendon321 The downside of control states rule that they can not mark up beyond normal margin AND they can not discriminate on who they sell to is that it attracts flippers and rewards them. Add in limited distribution to control states and corruption, and you have a recipe for disaster.

[@mesa50w]

My local stores charge over 100 bucks more than secordary.. Owa here 200-250 .. stagg jr 399-499, reg ol BT .. 75-100 , Weller 12 325-350 so I can jump on fb groups and buy stuff cheaper then stores down the street 🤦‍♂️

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I have shown a store secondary market listings to negotiate them down on their price.

[@andreslucero4976]

A few years ago Blanton's and Eagle Rare dominated the bourbon shelf in my local store, now they're impossible to find at MSRP in my area without joining a rewards system and racking up points and being limited to one allocated choice every three months, which really sucks when you use your pick a ER10 and they release a Stag single barrel pick the following week. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I must admit I would much rather have a Stagg SiB than a ER10.

[@michaelmirabal3809]

Arbitrage, that drives the secondary market. If MSRP is multiples of the price under market, then flippers sell the bottles to make money. Some shops look at the secondary for pricing and it becomes a self feeding loop. Look at Whistle Pig, they price high on their product and there is almost no secondary for those. MSRP is low for most distilleries on their allocated items. if MSRP is kept insanely low (George T Stagg MSRP is around $125) then the secondary and shop prices will rise wildly. The reason why distillers are not upping the prices is that it feeds their brand and gives distributors mountains of leverage to move other product like Fire Ball.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

You are correct, but you can not overlook capital investment for production capacity expansion. BT can't raise prices, because they just spent 1.3 billion to increase supply to satisfy demand.

[@ncdorito213]

#flipperssuck couldn't agree more with the options expressed. Please consider building relationships across the bourbon community, if not local, to avoid overpaying where possible. Many communities like this channel support responsible consumption, spending and promoting positivity that adds value, both literal and figuratively. Great video gents

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thank you!

[@Robloxyt445]

Seeing great bottles at depressing prices is the worse

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I hate museum stores!

[@silverpunk2427]

#flipperssuck That's unfortunately how it is in any hobby. Flippers know how badly collectors want something to add to their collection. I personally don't buy secondary. And it pisses me off when I go into a store and see the museum of bottles behind the counter collecting dust with ridiculous markups on them

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Same! There is so much the stores could do with those bottles that would benefit everyone in the system, but they are too lazy to do it. They are the prostitutes of the liquor world, selling themselves to the highest bidder instead of putting in work to form relationships with their customers.

[@STBarnhart]

I completely agree on every point! I would love to get my hands on an occasional allocated bottle at MSRP, but until the bourbon bubble bursts, there are gems available on shelves. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Most of the allocated bottles are that way for reasons other than flavor.

[@williamhall1517]

#Flippers Suck - Awesome vid! I hate flippers and refuse to pay more than a reasonable markup on bottles - secondary hurts everyone. Cheers!!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thanks!

[@davidkendrick9774]

Try living in UK only can buy secondary with a few exceptions which we can get readily like BT or Eagle Rare but nearly everything else totally unavailable but loving the chase

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I keep hearing this from our viewers over seas. If you come to the US you gotta stock up and bring it back with you I hear.

[@pinkymandel1530]

If I came across a BTAC bottle at MSRP, and as I walk out of the store someone offers me 1K over what I paid, I don't know that I wouldn't do it.... In general I'm anti flippers, buuuut

[@BourbonRealTalk]

If you ever had an open bottle at this level, you would know the connections and memories it helps create are going to last a lot longer than the profit on a flip. The memories last forever, but the money usually gets spent on something you don't remember.

[@dustinpeele2748]

#flipperssuck…I live in a state controlled area. We don’t really get much that’s worth flipping. This forces lots of people to buy online otherwise we wouldn’t be able to try allocated items.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I understand the draw of being a buyer, I just wish the sellers weren't using it to pay their bills...

[@Josh_Stringer]

I’ve traded with friends before. No malice. No price hikes. Like trading baseball cards back in the day 😊

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I think most people have no problem with that.

[@miketelfer9228]

#flipperssuck but I did enjoy this video and I agree with your main points about flippers. Individuals seeking a specific bottle seem mostly fine, but I really dislike seeing cases of Eagle Rare or OWA for sale on the secondary really rubs me the wrong way. I never thought of them being a literal illegal liquor store because they’re friends with a store owner, but I’d believe it!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

That is how the State ABC sees them. Thanks for watching!

[@scottsmart8009]

#flipperssuck sometimes I do pay secondary to get something. Like you said, I don't have the time so I'm willing to pay a little extra, but not ridiculous prices.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I support people spending their money the way they want.

[@MrJCBishop]

Wow the give aways a much appreciated. The education is even better. Leaving Houston tomorrow. I had a great time. Went to Giant. They have some great stuff there.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

So glad you had a good time!

[@jesseauer7649]

Flippers do suck. I hate missing out on a bottle I want, but hate it less when I think/feel/know it's going to someone who is going to drink and share the whiskey.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

That should be the attitude of all whiskey lovers.

[@colbyshaw2256]

#flipperssuck. The real issue is the stores. If you were allowed to buy bottles directly from the retailers this would be far less of an issue. Granted, things like sneakers have a secondary markup but nothing like bourbon because Nike can sell you sneakers. Buffalo Trace cannot. Hence, the new Jordan 5’s markup might be $100 on GOAT. It’s not 5 times the prices often.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

The other issue is lead time to produce more. Nike purposefully makes some things rare, but BT doesn't have a time machine to go back 23 years and make more Pappy.

[@markpoani2558]

Flippers are the worst. Getting allocated stuff at msrp just to turn around and flip it at secondary pricing. Flippers and the secondary market are what’s wrong with bourbon.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

It certainly is not helping!

[@Bshop007]

Ok I saw a Stagg for 300 in a local liquor store would you put stores who drastically overprice in the same boat with flippers?

[@brendenkutchko9668]

I would

[@timkida5237]

I would not. First it is the manufacturers SUGGESTED retail price. And second I don't know how a for-profit entity leaves money on the table.

[@brendenkutchko9668]

@@timkida5237 I disagree. They are a for profit BUSINESS and I’m sure they are a business that would still like to be able to sell their products in the future. It damages the market, like they mentioned in the video. If a producer suggests a retail price it’s because that’s what they deem the product to be worth. When you overinflated the market you MIGHT sell that bottle for a pretty penny one time, but when the market is over saturated when the producer starts making more because of the false demand, stuff will sit on shelves and you won’t even be able to sell it at msrp. Going for the quick buck but damaging the market you depend on is short sighted and a dumb business practice if you want your business to survive. Plus, when you overprice the product like that, you earn a bad reputation and ruin your own business. People would rather go support the other store that sells their products at a fair price than pay 5x the price at your store.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I go into details in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpuXi4Cjetp8bbM

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Since the stores are protected from influence when retailers engaging in pricing strategies that damage the brand, I disagree. I go into details in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpuXi4Cjetp8bbM

[@ScottW4631]

#flippers suck. Love your discussion of false demand on the bourbon producers.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

It is a serious concern. The last time the industry read the tea leaves wrong in the 50's, it ushered in a 4 decade long period of destruction of the bourbon industry.

[@davidcraine6721]

#flipperssuck. I agree it's not realistic to expect people to stop paying secondary prices; but I really don't see how the problem goes away until the willingness of people to pay those prices goes away. I think the main problem is that price is supposed to be an indicator of value. For example, when I look at a $500 camera vs a $5000 camera, that price difference should indicate to me that there is a significant difference in value. But when flippers start artificially inflating prices, that connection between price and value is broken and it becomes very difficult for consumers to make an informed purchasing decision.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

The truth is the most allocated bottle vs wild turkey rare breed in a blind would not win by much. It isn't a quality thing, just supply vs demand. People want it because it has value beyond flavor. This means that you could potentially fix the issue by balancing supply and demand without preventing people from paying a higher price for what they want. If the flippers were not taking the bottles from the drinkers, that additional inventory would cause prices to come down.

[@davidcraine6721]

@@BourbonRealTalk I don't disagree. My point is that flippers distort the market such that it breaks the normal correlation between price and value. In other markets, there's generally a correlation between price and value for the same type of product. People typically assume that if something costs more, there is some sort of additional value there over a lower priced version of the same kind of product. For someone new to the bourbon market, they might assume that a $1500 bottle of Old Rip 10 is going to be orders of magnitude better than a $65 bottle of Rare Breed. But as you point out, that is not the case at all. So you cannot apply normal price/value formations in the bourbon market unless you are become informed enough to understand MSRP values, secondary markets, etc.

[@davidcraine6721]

I think part of the issue is also that the bourbon market has partially morphed into a collectors market, where rarity is more of a determination of price than quality.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

@@davidcraine6721 There is no doubt in my mind that this statement is true!

[@TheWhiskeyPanda37]

Well, flippers suck! Also, stores who help those flippers are horrible, but also stores who decide to basically become a flipper by setting their allocated bottle cost at secondary market price are just as big of a problem! For crying out loud, a $60 bottle of Stagg is not worth $200-$250! But you see them on the shelf in museums all the time. Ridiculous how people pay MSRP and then turn around and screw someone because they got to the bottle first or the store sets the price at a crazy markup! This is something that outrages me on so many levels. In the famous words of MJ, “Stop it, get some help…”

[@timkida5237]

How much is Buffalo trace to blame? I hear a lot of people complaining about the price increase of this years Master's keep yet I don't see any on shelves or many on secondary. Has Buffalo trace increased the MSRP of their products to try to curtail the secondary sales? I am only jumping up and down on Buffalo trace because I don't know of a distillery that has more secondary sales than them.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

🤣

[@TheWhiskeyPanda37]

@@timkida5237 Ummmm…. Not sure what you are talking about as most BT products I come across are still reasonable. I got a EHT BP for $85. It’s Wild Turkey that’s raising up there prices, not BT. But they are just trying to see how much the consumer will spend, that’s their right. But the stores who just buy low and sell high like flippers are more of the blame. I can’t get mad at a distillery who put in all the work to want more if they feel like they deserve it. They are the only ones who have earned that right in my opinion.

[@TheWhiskeyPanda37]

@@BourbonRealTalk Glad you got a laugh out of it! I like using that MJ quote, that is funny! Was trying to be honest and have a little humor too. Normally don’t say much on this topic. Oh well! 😂

[@BourbonRealTalk]

@@TheWhiskeyPanda37 BT just spent 1.3 BILLION dollars doubling capacity, and can not raise their prices because they need high demand for the surplus that is coming. Wild Turkey does not have additional capacity coming, and needs to raise prices to balance supply and demand so they don't end up on allocation for their everyday products.

[@berkleycumbie6359]

What government agency do I need to contact to stop this problem?

[@BourbonRealTalk]

This will never be enforced. Who is the criminal? The buyer is the one violating their own state laws, but they are not a bootlegger. The seller is a bootlegger, but outside of the states jurisdiction. The federal government doesn't have the resources to care. On top of all this, regulatory authorities are wholly unaware that these transactions are taking place.

[@berkleycumbie6359]

@@BourbonRealTalk thank you for your input. You seem to be a good person. thanks again.

[@Ules8064]

#Flippers suck. Hey Randy,. You guys are doing great and I love the show. We have talked before and I really believe in the message your putting out. Thank you..

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I appreciate that, and you continued support!

[@christopherscuron2523]

Totally agree with all of these points! Unfortunately it seems like at bourbon drops in my state has now become more flippers than bourbon enthusiasts. At least in the past it was only a select few. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

That is why retailers who do something to make sure they are not selling to unknown people who could be flippers is so important.

[@scottreynolds]

Thanks for saying out loud what most of us are thinking. Well done, and of course, #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Our pleasure!

[@Lemontkd]

I’m in Minnesota and the allocations are super hard to come by unless you build that relationship. Otherwise you find stores way overcharging for bottles. I see flippers on Facebook all the time and I always wonder why they wouldn’t just leave it for people like me just getting into it. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

They want the little bit of profit to put into their household budget. If they spent the same amount of time on a legit endeavor they would benefit more, but they don't think that way.

[@Lemontkd]

@@BourbonRealTalk that’s so true. People trying to make a buck before they ask themselves if it’s an honest buck.

[@sainttrixx]

Only counter argument I can say is the “Value” that flippers bring is availability. Do you personally feel that liquor stores should be able to charge you any price for their products they purchase? Like you said the eagle rare is $100 at the store because “it’s worth it” Should stores be stuck at pricing out items at MSRP? Should Grocery stores do the same? Car lots? It’s a slippery slope. That all being said, I wish there was a better way to do this so I personally could get the items I want at a better fairer price. Try buying Pokémon or sports cards…. Let me know what you guys think?

[@BourbonRealTalk]

IMO Flippers reduce availability by taking bottles out of the hands of drinkers. This creates false demand and increases fear of missing out, which in combination push prices further than they would have gone in a free market. I am strongly against stores having the freedom to set their prices significantly above SRP, because the producer of the product is not free to decide to stop selling product to stores who are damaging the value of their brands with their pricing. People often misunderstand my message because they understand the principles of capitalism, and think I am against capitalism. If you dig deeper you will learn that my objection to almost all "capitalist" arguments come from the market not being "free". Buffalo Trace should be free to evaluate all the retailers and determine which ones are selling their products in a way that best serve their long term interest, and redirect inventory to those stores from stores who are harming their brands, but they are NOT free to do that.

[@thebrubakermaker2754]

#Flippers Suck I will pass on allocated bottles so someone else can have an awesome day! That’s what the bourbon community is about. Means more to see someone get an allocated bottle for the first than what it means to be to have another bottle. Share the wealth people!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Love the philosophy

[@jgon9751]

Preciate you guys talking about this! For someone with a very limited budget for whiskey, every purchase is important and never worth the significant markup. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

The good news is you don't have to spend a fortune to drink great whiskey! Cheers!

[@Mdsmw1985]

If the hype dies down and taters or flippers no longer is a thing because demand drops, what are the chances we loose the atmosphere of innovation and creativity of blending and finishing when the market slows down? #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

The barrier to entry for a small producer is very high. You can get a distillery running on a very small scale for half a million or so, but if you want to make column still whiskey you are well into the millions to get started, and that is before you have proof of concept. This means people will always be interested in buying surplus barrels from other producers, but that creates problems. Two non distillery producers could be releasing the exact same whiskey. To prevent this (and sometimes to comply with state law) they have to do something to "change" the whiskey. That is the driving force behind all the crazy finishes, and the barrier to entry for small producers will always provide the motivation for innovation IMO.

[@mikelester816]

Maybe the manufacturers should price bottles at the true market value.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

This is solid capitalistic wisdom. A detailed understanding of the industry and products you are trying to apply this logic to reveals why it isn't that simple.

[@erictonn9976]

i love sharing with my friends and family. Now the markup on some is insane. There are a lot of bottles out there that I will probably never get to taste due to the cost and availability. I tend to use Buffalo Trace as an example. Easy to find at MSRP right around my house. But if I go just 10 miles or more away and I've seen it for as much as $30 over the MSRP. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Whiskey is mostly about sharing IMO

[@ericseneff7507]

#flippers suck. I hate that this is a thing. I live in ohio where they do drops daily throughout the state. Because I can't wait in line at opening of stores getting the harder to find bourbon is almost impossible. It sucks going to a store and seeing 5 people in their cars taking pictures knowing it's going online to sell. Thanks for the videos. Have a merry Christmas.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

That is why I understand when stores choose a different distribution strategy than first come first serve.

[@shonyamashiro2203]

Flipping is out of hand in my State, people buying full cases of bottles and flipping. I always try to trade as oppose to straight selling. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

It is out of hand everywhere! Cheers!

[@keithlogan5748]

I agree 💯 I’m also a knife collector and flipping is a huge problem #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I particularly hate flippers of whiskey because the knife company could make more of the same knife to stop the secondary, but if Buffalo Trace wants to do it they have to invest 1.3 billion dollars and wait 8-25 years to see if the bet worked.

[@lisaburket6423]

Loved this! #flipperssuck. I wish more Bourbon drinkers would stop and put these people out of business. I keep hearing from angry liquor store clerks about them. This past summer I went to Four Roses at Cox Creek and some clerks there were talking about it with me too. These flippers are hurting the honest drinkers who just want to try different whiskeys.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Couldn't agree more!

[@taylom11]

As an economist I totally agree with this. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

So many people call it capitalism, but they don't understand it isn't a free market. Some people take advantage of the laws, and those affected are not free to do business with someone else. I appreciate you feedback.

[@umami0247]

Yes flippers are scum however if individuals pay those prices then they are to blame also. Again I have a limit on how much I pay for alcohol it’s 150 and I’ve spent that once. 99% of my bottles cost between 19-90. Part of the issue is being supported by the industry itself by keeping production down and I do believe that is happening.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Given that the people who make production decision would definitely get fired if they purposefully made less whiskey than they had customers for, and the theory runs contrary to all economic logic and self interest, what make you think this is happening?

[@ygulee]

Totally agree with everything that was said. To me it’s the flippers that sell for liquor stores that are the worst and ruin it for everyone in the bourbon community. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

It really sucks. The alternative is they price gouge, because they are too lazy to do the hard work and use the allocated bottles to form relationships with valuable customers.

[@TheNewRevolution]

I hate whiskey flippers. I've been drinking Bourbon over 30 years. I used to be able to walk into any liquor store in Kentucky and pick up what I wanted. Now I can never find what I want. I know it's not just the fault of the flippers. Anything that contributes to me not being able to enjoy whiskey the way I want is a bad thing. There's plenty of blame to go around.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Fair!

[@Jarhead0093]

#flipperssuck Interesting topic. Now, I’ve never sold a bottle nor have I traded a bottle so don’t take this the wrong way. You mentioned that flippers don’t add value to the process. What about highly allocated bottles for charity? Meaning they sell tickets and pull in $10k for a $100 bottle. Are they a type of “flipper”?

[@BourbonRealTalk]

No

[@Jarhead0093]

@@BourbonRealTalk fair enough. Cheers!

[@derekolson6170]

I think I'm pretty lucky as my store will just put them in a glass case, limit one, first come first serve. They'll hold the really rare ones back for an annual lotto. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Sounds like a good store. They deserve the lion's share of your whiskey dollars IMO.

[@red5standingby419]

Great vid gents. I agree that #flipperssuck . I think it fair that you judge the buyers less harshly than the sellers, but they are still definitely a part of the problem. I for one have just stopped hunting altogether. The game the flippers have rigged is tiring and pointless so the only way to win is to not play. I occasionally go to the store and if I see something good or interesting I'll grab it as long as it's a normal price. If not I buy nothing. Cheers!

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Noble stance! I do not blame the buyers as much because I in the past had a bottle I didn't want, that had value, that I could not find a person to trade for.

[@bradleygomez7522]

For some of us who due to their market, will never see an "allocated", this gives us hope that someday the market will self adjust. Fingers crossed and great content guys! #flipperssuck

[@steveno7058]

Market will only correct when people stop paying stupid prices for corn juice. As long as there are enough buyers the stupid prices won’t end

[@BourbonRealTalk]

If you research production capacity investments with the major KY distilleries, you will see that there is an end in sight.

[@michaeltuthill6442]

#flipperssuck When you live somewhere that gets maybe one bottle of Stagg a year and think that cases might go out the back door it makes you less than happy. Thanks for this video.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

How about the two control states that had to fire all of their regulatory staff for taking bottles for themselves or awarding all the bottles to the same people last year. Bourbon mania is crazy!

[@ChuckSchmidt-mt5wj]

I have never seen some of the rare bottles in the NY State market at MSRP. Some stores seem almost as bad as flippers with their secondary pricing. Support the honest stores I buy to drink them. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

I hear NY is mostly price gouge stores, but if you find an honest store they deserve your business IMO.

[@CiboloDave]

Flippers suck! #flipperssuck Great topic. Agree with you guys completely. Just bought some items from your store. Love what you guys are doing.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thank you so much for the support! It means a lot!

[@agaricus]

Good perspectives around this topic, and a grounded view as well. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thank you!

[@dchevron77]

#flipperssuck Interesting video. I like the false demand section. Reminds me of tulip mania where people are buying from other people with the expectation they can resell it for a lot more down the road.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

My long term fear is that production capacity increases that were motivated by the false demand will bring about another bourbon dark ages.

[@scottbarnas5060]

Completely agree with your points on this video! Been loving your content. I am 100% on board for trading bottle with people if they cant get something in their market I can and visa versa. Its the secondary market and corrupt liquor stores that has made my once everyday bourbons no longer available. Which is why I appreciate the community that is willing to share samples and pours to let people's actual individual palates decide what is good bourbon, rather than the secondary and FOMO behind it. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

The whiskey community is amazing when it operates as it should!

[@henryh854]

I have seen flippers having mutliple bottles of one particular bottles which is ridiculous. I hate people that buys to make just a profit instead of sharing the love with the community. #flipperssuck

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Sharing is caring!

[@troyrowe505]

Well I am in agreement with you on this issue. I believe that the flippers ruined the whole market for everyone and to those who think they couldn't get a bottle of allocated stuff without them. You are sadly mistaken the truth of the matter is that you would find More allocated bottles. If the stupid flippers weren't out there taking it all. I buy bourbon to drink not to profit off of others.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Amen!

[@Themexibilly]

You guys are always doing good for the community. #whiskeyflipperssuck! #savesomeforthedrinkers

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Thank you!

[@padave7505]

#flipperssuck great video. I understand why you’re not as hard on buyers as sellers; however, the buyers definitely contribute to the problem. I suppose there will always be a secondary market for any product when demand outweighs supply..

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Very true! Thanks for watching!

[@kenheise162]

#filpperssuck and #museumssuck Between museums and flippers is very hard to find certain items. I’ve started to laugh at those who post stuff for sale at crazy prices online. I’m fortunate that I’ve found a few honest stores that sell at MSRP and that is where I go to shop.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

They deserve all of your business!

[@WhiskyForBeginners]

My view is that whisky is for *drinking* . That's why I buy it, and that's why distilleries make it. If someone wants to buy whisky just to have it (a collector), or to sell it on and make a little money (a flipper), that's his business - but I just can't feature it. Buying whisky and not drinking it makes about as much sense to me as buying a McRib and not eating it. #flipperssuck 🙂

[@BourbonRealTalk]

Cheers!

[@ChrisCarter-zu9qc]

#flipperssuck It’s really hard to find certain bottles in my area due to flippers and certain stores marking up the prices.

[@BourbonRealTalk]

The market will shift. I am just worried what will happen to all the producers when it does.