Whitestar (Babylon 5) - Fleetyards

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[@Tounushi]

Apparently there were three sizes for the ship. Ron Thornton (117.5m) “The original idea was for something small and compact (like the Millennium Falcon), with the majority of the ship being set aside for fuel, propulsion and weaponry. The little bridge on the top was supposed be the only really habitable area. “But after seeing the different sets that were being made for it we knew the ship would have to be much bigger. We tried to interface with John Iacovelli and his guys, but it was a strained relationship.” Tim Earls (262m) “When I first started drawing the plans for the Security Manual I had to somehow resolve the window placement of the bridge and the practical aspects of fitting the existing sets inside the hull of the Whitestar. The original dimensions made some parts of the ship far too small to walk through, especially after accounting for hull thickness, etc. This was especially problematic at the neck to the bridge module.” Tim Earls (475.6m) “Then in fifth season, JMS wrote a hanger bay into the script which had to hold at least 3 Nial class fighters. To make all this work I had to scale the ship up again. Even at 475 meters, the Whitestar's speed and maneuverability is still quite astounding for a vessel of its size. The new scale was officially approved by the producers and is now the size to which the animators must scale.” Makes sense that the bridge pod looks like it's the only really habitable part of the vessel.

[@nicholasdickens2801]

Tounushi That’s all very true. I thought how they’d get to the bridge through that neck was a bit far fetched.

[@KuraIthys]

Same problem as the Defiant huh, but for different reasons. With the Defiant it just seems to come down to nobody bothering to sit down and REALLY work out how large the ship was supposed to be. It varies in size from shot to shot, sometimes changing scales in a single episode, just because nobody bothered to pin it down. It comes in at anything from 50 to 170 metres... Though 120 metres is the most frequently cited scale when actual numbers are used. (and it's the scale used in the diagrams seen in the technical manuals.)

[@2012blueridge]

Yeah I am currently working on a rough 2500 scale 3D model and I’m coming up with about 292m based on the bridge windows... I’ve already made the fighters on that scale and will have to see how they will fit

[@watcherzero5256]

Ironically that small personal transport would be revisited with the Blue Star design, AKA "The Snub Nosed Whitestars" I think in practical terms its supposed to be about the same size as the Defiant. a small crew of around 50 and a mostly automated ship that can be flown by a single person.

[@Jack_Stafford]

To me the windows always tell the story, despite what producers try to force on a ship later on. We can see the windows from the outside, we can see the windows from the inside, so the entire structure is significantly smaller than the saucer of a constitution-class, with radically less actual living space since there are a lot of curving thin pylons, flying wings and fins with, besides the bridge, only a thin Central spine and the bulbous front for some interior volume. So, much of the size is actually Wing structure and interior-wise has no near the living capacity of even a constitution-class saucer. They can print whatever they want in a to sell it but you can't tell me not to believe "My Lying Eyes". Imagine that window being roughly the size of a person standing and you need not explore any further. Any talk of shuttle Bays or anything else would have to be the front part of the ship completely hollowed out specifically for that purpose or the shuttles parked in very shallow compact spaces with low ceilings internal to the central spine or completely arranged flush to the exterior of a ship like an escape pod, Dropship or captains craft. Which isn't a bad design, we just can't think of a hanger Bay being this huge room with uselessly high ceilings all the time. That's wasted space, in space. Maybe the fighters somehow are almost flush with the ship much like a captain's yacht and a membrane enclosed over them. Otherwise they would have to be hollowed out from engine room space or living space at the front. The size is the size, producers are not experts at spatial relations nor _spacial_ relations. They just want to make an episode work to make money, they may not even be fans or even knowledgeable of Science Fiction. So their opinions don't mean much to me.

[@biglogan6142]

re: DS9 vs B5 It's been acknowledged by Majel Barrett that DS9 was a rip off of B5 (CBS had a copy of the B5 bible before B5 while JMS was shopping the show around). This is why Majel did a guest appearance in the B5 episode "Point of No Return" (ironically as the deceased emperor's widow lol ... a reference to Gene?) and why Bill Mumy did a guest appearance in the now legendary DS9 episode "The Siege of AR-558" ... each doing a sort of "diplomatic exchange" to try and help heal the rift in the two fandoms.

[@dappercrow1454]

Update from your post. JMS(J. Michael Straczynski) has after your post published a memoir, In it's implied that even more questionable acts were done to copy from B5. P.S. the memoir Becoming Superman is one of the most depressing things I have read, JMS' s family were mostly (with some exceptions) scum, and in the case of one a human monster.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Well, to be precise, the PITCH was likely stolen by Paramount, along with some names from the series bible.

[@TheRealCobraBurnout]

Babylon 5 was a great series. Ahead of its time in what was needed for special effects but at the time I didn't notice. Loved it back when it aired.

[@brianberthold3118]

the space sense are still great

[@gawainethefirst]

Where the FX are concerned, it was ahead of its time seeing great strides in television CG.

[@MechaRandom42]

Merry Christmas! I love seeing a Babylon 5 video in my notifications! The White Star is actually pretty awesome with the artificial gravity and being able to open it's own jump point. I have to disagree with you captain Foley, I think all the B5 ships fit really well with the species that they belong to. The Narn ships look Narn, the Shadow ships look like they belong to the Shadows, etc. 😊

[@kamenriderblade2099]

I concur, every species ship designs were very unique.

[@jame3shook]

As I recall, the White Star class were a combination of Vorlon and Mimbari Technology...to combat the Shadow ships.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

Your are correct sir. But it is very awesome tech for the universe it resides in.

[@litesaber54yi3]

agreed. each species has a design language that just works sooooo well.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

Yup, you can easily tell which ship belonged to which species =D

[@AdegaOutlaw]

The Vorlons learned to regret helping build those ships.

[@Matej_Sojka]

No they did not. Their feud with Shadows ended and they all went off to reunite with their bretheren in the void. They got what they wanted in the end and they reminded Shadows of who they are. Win-Win for everyone.

[@AdegaOutlaw]

Before the end of the shadow war, in order to get the Vorlons and the Shadows together at Corriana 6, the whitestars took out Vorlon outposts. So ya, but it was a small detail.

[@jamiecampbell8855]

The idea that the vorlons reminded who the shadows are is wrong. The whole point was both ancient species had lost their way too. The vorlons were extremely manipulative appearing as angels to the younger races. They went ballistic in season 4 destroying planets just like the shadows. The exception being kosh. That's why the other ancients sides with the younger races a against both the shadows and vorlons. The shadows are evil and vorlons good dichotomy was revealed to be false.

[@Matej_Sojka]

@@jamiecampbell8855 They got what they wanted I wrote was meant as Shadows'question "What do you want?" Vorlons were forced to answer that question as well as "Who are you?" just like Shadows were. That neither of them had answers was what truly stopped the war.

[@wordwyrd]

The bladelike fins are gravitic engines, just like on the Sharlin Minbari cruiser.

[@christopherbrown5304]

I wonder how many people knew this...other than us

[@wordwyrd]

@@christopherbrown5304 the guys even mentioned them on that episode. 😎

[@SentinelBorg]

Yes, also the Centauri ships have them, as well as the human Warlock class later on.

[@kronnickusrex7832]

Ds9 was based off of the manuscript that J. Michael Strazinski pitched to Trek. They didn't want to do it but then caught wind that he was going off and making his own IP so they fast tracked it. Yes they are very similar because they have the same core I don't say this with any negativity as I think this led trek to break from its comfort zone and produce one of the best scifi TV series ever.

[@andrewparnell5566]

So I guess that explains why Defiant and Whitestar both appeared in the same year?

[@moguldamongrel3054]

Richard Griffiths so your saying if paramount wasnt worried about losing profit they could have had 2 of the best sci fi shows and made a crapton of money on?

[@moguldamongrel3054]

Richard Griffiths ahhh the fear of risk with something new so stick with whats sure to bring in the money. Like coming up with a "new" story but inserting it into an "old" title because on one hand your afraid of loss and risk, but on the other hand you want to guarentee initial fanbase to keep your statistical figures strong initially. Then as your "new" idea is so completely out of character for your "old" title, you wind up destroying your own franchise in the process. yes i can see how much sense, risk and loss makes from a business standpoint, in regards to new sci fi shows.

[@moguldamongrel3054]

Richard Griffiths Or the tried and true method of big business, wait for the little studios to create a fresh new idea, then swoop in and buy it out. no risk in loss, all reward. man business really makes logical sense.

[@moguldamongrel3054]

Richard Griffiths haha well thanks man. I tried q3ta myself but man aiming and shooting is such a chore for such a fast paced game on a touch screen, but those bots have a huge advantage without a mouse. I just found out they had all those ports from years ago.

[@alt-animefan3231]

Best B5 quote about the Whitestar. " they look like a plucked chicken"

[@davidbarnhart6228]

You beat me by 10 months. I just commented that.😭😭😭

[@cernstormrunner7263]

Always thought that the White Star was a beautiful, finely crafted sword. And the Defiant was a baseball bat with a couple nails in it. And I love them both

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I can remove your hand for your theft of our territory, and I will defend these people with my honor and soul. You can run, or I can beatcha.

[@johncunningham4820]

Defiant . Baseball Bat . Sisko design . Seems apt . LOL . Also Punched WAY above its weight . But I think a White-star would take it apart real quick . Like a Sword against a Bat . I also love Both Ships . They were Game-changers .

[@johnwiebe8581]

The bridge area, especially the helm reminds me of Seaquest DSV with the pod chairs and mini screens!

[@williammeredith8430]

The rear fins are part of the ships Gravimetric Drive system . The Minbari use engines that generate artificial gravity fields to propel the ship. It can also be used for artificial gravity aboard ship , the Centauri tried to use it to create force fields. The three engines you see are boosters for maneuvering and acceleration .

[@kamenriderblade2099]

The 3x large engines (Center, Port/StarBoard Pylon Wing Tips) are 3x large Ion Engines for Foreward thrust. The smaller Yellow engines along the wings Foreward and Rearward edges are for RCS action, ergo the superior rotational and banking capabilities of the vessel.

[@darwinxavier3516]

I never saw the forward yellow bits as anything other than an aesthetic choice. With the gravimetric drive being responsible for the entirety of the fine maneuvering. Would be neat if those were actually streamlined thrusters.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

I thought it was always the combinated of Gravimetric + Ion Engines spread throughout that gave the White Star it's Fighter Craft like performance.

[@h2ksup3rm4n]

@@kamenriderblade2099 I think you are right about that.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

"Ah, Mr. Garibaldi!!!" Man, do I miss Jerry Doyle!

[@Adam_Boots]

I always loved the whitestar design. If I remember correctly Babylon 5 was the first series to use exclusively cgi with no physical miniatures at all, considering when it was made it was quite an achievement. Loved seeing an offshoot of the Whitestar in the final episode which was called the Bluestar I believe which was a small scoutship. My most memorable scene is when Sheridan see's the fleet of Whitestars while being told the Whitestar was never meant to be a one off.

[@deponia]

Yes that's right, iirc the initial pilot episode was made using Video Toaster Hardware on Amiga's (that takes me back) before they switched over to more PC based hardware. It was mostly driven by budget constraints as they just could not afford to use physical model filming on the budget they had at the time. Pioneering work for sure between them and Mainframe entertainment CGI software and techniques advanced considerably at that time. In terms of scale of battles nothing else done with physical models could really touch them until much later on. DS9's battle scenes from season 5ish forward came out much later I think.

[@kinggoten]

yes it was the first to use all CGI, which honestly was probably smart the initial cost is more but once you have all the models etc you just reuse them, well same goes for minatures but you destroy minatures when you do combat so they have to be remade... however because of the CGI sadly is why visualy the show hasn't aged extremely well, still probs my fav SCI FI show love Trek etc... but B5 was really something special hope we get to return to that universe some day. **edit the other thing about CGI is you can have scenes with hundreds(or more) of ships without adding to the cost of said shots very hard to do that with minatures.

[@Adam_Boots]

Considering Star Wreck was made a decade later with both more powerful hardware as well as people having a decade's worth of experience with cgi I believe it has held up considerably well. B5 was filmed in 16:9 although it was filmed as if it was going to be 4:3 which is why when you watch the dvd's everything tends to be centered in the middle of the shot. If it did ever get remastered every bit of cgi would have to be redone as there is no way of upscaling it decently as I don't believe they were rendered at a high resolution, just enough for standard defenition though they did get some higher resolution for the lost tales though I believe it was a different company that did the cgi for that (might have been ILM though I am not 100% sure). I actually found it odd watching the new cgi after getting so used to the cgi in the series.

[@KuraIthys]

Mmh. Mostly Lightwave 3d... I remember importing a few Babylon 5 models into that program - I sometimes wonder if the original studio models were leaked, or if it's just the usual fan recreation. I didn't get along all that well with Lightwave's modeller, but something that always really impressed me was how well it handled massive scale differentials. (and how if you zoom out far enough you get units like megametres and gigametres. Quite funny. XD) The thing about Lightwave was you could plonk down a model the size of an actual planet, then put a spaceship next to it, and it would all be properly in scale, and you really could shove things together that had a HUGE size difference, and the program just coped as if it was no big deal. (try that with 3d studio max or most any other 3d program and I guarantee you it will struggle to deal with that kind of stuff.) Certainly a very useful attribute for something that features a lot of space battles...

[@762rk95tp]

@@kinggoten Usually they had multiple physical models for ships in scifi shows back in the day. Things one huge hero model for high detail shots and smaller model for wide angle shots. Star Trek TNG is good example. They had huge 6 foot Enterprise D, 2 foot model for wide angle shots and later on they made 4 foot model to complement those because huge model was pain in the ass to film and 2 foot one wasn't detailed enough. They also used commercial model kits for damage shots among other things once those became available as merchandise.

[@brianrobinson5012]

Funny coincidence. The still shot with most of the cast on the bridge came from the Episode when they make sure Babylon 4 makes it to 1000 years in the past. I happened to just get home from Christmas Day celebration and was watching your video. Comet was running a Babylon 5 marathon with that exact episode on. I agree with you for once. The White Star is one of my favorite Sci Fi ship designs. It fits the story narrative and fit in with known Babylon 5 Technology. It was an advanced warship (curiously designed by a religious sect ) but was not overly advanced compared against its enemy combatants. A well done ship.

[@Matej_Sojka]

Worker caste built White Stars. I'd be very surprised if Religious Caste had much to do with the White Star project before Warrior caste refused to support the Anla'Shock and they had to crew the ships.

[@trekboy02]

I am grateful that you guys did this. I originally watched it on a small computer monitor when it first came on. I loved the ship, but could not see the detail that is on this ship. It is even more amazing than I thought.

[@ericlanglois9194]

Babylon 5 ships don't use energy shields of any kind. The bio armor used by the Vorlons and the Whitestars can "remember" energy signatures and adapt to them, rendering them less lethal in subsequent battles. Kind of like the Borg's method of adapting however the whitestars are not "linked" so each ship would eventually have different resistances dependent on what they were hit with during their various battles. The resistance was not complete however and could still be overwhelmed. Furthermore it added no real protection against projectile and missile weapons.

[@greenmachine949]

The Babylon ships all have very animal qualities to them. Here we have the White Star, which always reminded me of a salamander. The Vorlon ships were very squid-like and my favourite B5 ship, the Minbari warship had a very fish-like quality.

[@jwessel1969]

And the Shadow battle-crab

[@seanp8220]

The Drakh like wasps or bees. The shadows like spiders.

[@SpacialKatana]

Whitestar was based from the pelican.

[@randybentley2633]

There are so many stories left to tell in this universe, stories in which we could get to see more of these beautiful ships and a plethora of other designs.

[@helrod]

The whitestar. The ship that gave DS9 the Defiant . The Defiant was important as a new toy The whitester was important as a plot point and the signal of change to the over all story and actual I act on characters.

[@Lexi_Zone]

I _love_ the White Stars! I've always felt it was a shame that JMS described them as looking more like plucked chickens than he originally envisioned. Personally, I think they succeeded in making a cool ship that looks good from absolutely any angle.

[@litesaber54yi3]

The WS fleet is my favorite ship type in any show, from a show that has my overall favorite ship types. Vorlon, Shadow, Minbari....amazing

[@Duke00x]

The big flat parts in back are the hyperdrive (it is on the menbari big ships also) and it (hyperdrives) takes up a lot of room in the universe.

[@peccatumDei]

I'm very happy to see you talk about the Whitestar. There's a scene in the show, where Lanier explains that the ship employs a gravity drive.

[@djolds1]

The fins were for gravimetric propulsion. Similar to the normal Minbari and Centauri ships in B5, but far more advanced. Vorlon technology was organic, the Minbari used crystaline technology, the Centauri and Earthers were metal based with the Centauri being more advanced than Earth but less advanced than the Minbari. The Whitestar would be a crystaline/organic hybrid. Hybrid power systems for a jump drive on a "small" younger species ship for B5.

[@b54life]

Folks over at a few B5 facebook pages are loving some of the screen shots I took of the renderings, well done video!

[@smnash82]

400 some odd meters is small compared to the capital ships in B5. Hell, the Omega class Destroyer (still waiting on the full episode) is almost 2,000 meters long. Great briefing, guys.

[@MrPingn]

There is a fan design out there by an artist named Amras Arfeiniel designated a gunship. Has one of the cannons that make up the main guns on the Victory Class ISA Destroyer from the A Call To Arms Movie. It's looks beefed up with a single tail fin engine instead of two. With the forward guns shrunk just a bit and moved to the underside. Livable space still seems to be small. Primarily between the main gun and engine areas. There's even some more greebles. I love the white star. But I kinda like this a little bit better. You guys have talked before about technology advancement and how it can effect the size of a ship. For example the Stargate ship has big bulky engines that take up a lot of space. Then as the technology is fine tuned it can get smaller on the same design. I've always felt the White Stars have a similar situation being that it is new with combined technology. That would reduce inner volume too I think.

[@rrirving]

Propulsion of the Whitestar class was Gravity/Magnetic (gravitetic?). Was the best looking ship in the whole series. I think it was the best series at the time.

[@iclisious]

Just a minor correction. The only organics on this ship is the armor/Outer hull. And yes it is atmo capable

[@adrastos8401]

All ships made by race of Centauri advancement or above are atmosphere capable. In Legend of the Rangers we see the Valen which is Minbari/human made brick with engines almost the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer parked on the ground, and then take off from a ground based construction facility and we see Centauri Primus class ships in atmosphere in Lost Tales as well

[@jacobseime9923]

Not entirely correct. The internal bulkheads (walls) were of the same material. You actually see one of the walls 'healing' itself during a fight with an EA Cruiser.

[@captin3149]

Agreed on Atmosphere capability, it's shown in the atmospheres of Mars and Earth in the show. (It's been a while since I've watched it so it might have been shown in other planets' atmospheres as well)

[@adrastos8401]

@@captin3149 I think the only other atmosphere it was shown in was that of Minbar during the same construction scene as the Valen and Liandra were in

[@blackearthdreams]

Paul Apfelbaum / Actually, it was shown in Earth’s atmosphere in the episode where Sheridan resigns from the Earth Force (supposedly under duress and punishment) and announces the creation of the ISA (InterStellar Alliance), of which he was its first President, and the scene was punctuated by a very memorable, low-altitude mass flyover of Earth Dome by the ISA’a fleet of White Stars.

[@driftbandit4740]

Pure sexy ship. I always knew that the WhiteStar was bigger than the Defiant and it's pretty damn manuvablity for a ship it's size.

[@tzor]

I love the organic feel of the ship. It also tends to look like a smaller ship sitting on thg he back of a larger ship.

[@jasongillespie8933]

Ah, my favorite death frog. I loved that ship from its first frame in the 90s

[@travelswithsi8932]

One of my fave designs. I seem to. Remember that the fins at the back are gravity manipulators and we're the main drive for mimbari ships.

[@Davegvg3576]

2 favorite whitestar - scenes - the entry hall with the Microfusion or microsingularity reactors and the handbrake turn - a rare maneuver in Sci-fi and likely the first use of such move I can recall.

[@futurerandomness1620]

The front of the bridge looks like it came right off of a B1B bomber. I think that the position of the bridge could be explained and reasonable if you consider it being able to jettison as a type of lifeboat. The ship would have to have a launch bay of some kind as there was no transporter systems in the B5 IP. It would require some way to ferry equipment and personnel on and off the ship, without requiring it to dock or land to do so.

[@christopherbrown5304]

Few things: The Minbari do not make organic ships. The white star is only organic because its SKIN is organic. ONLY ITS SKIN. Its shields and "armor" is organic, coming from its skin. It IS atmospheric capable as well. You may also wish to not that the White star actually has two propulsion methods which make the ship incredibly fast. The White Star's speed was never surpassed in the show making this class of ship the fastest. Its propulsion system includes the usual minbari engines, (the fins) which are gravity based and are mainly used to orientation and direction changes. The visible engines are the white star's powerful plasma engines which are used for acceleration and high speed spins to point their weapons on target. These propulsion systems allow the ship to move and accelerate like a fighter despite her size. Its also imporatant to note that the White Star is the smallest ship which can open a jumpoint into hyperspace on its own. The White Star IS my favorite ship of Science Fiction. I really wish you guys asked questions before the video. Ive commited much of this ship's lore to memory Lastly, concerning the Defiant vs. White Star "What If", its hard to say but thing to be remembered, the white star must put its nose on target to fire, the White Star CAN keep up with the Defiant's maneuvers, and the white star DOES have shields. The effect of the Minbari sensors overloading other ships sensors should be considered as well...althought i believe a star fleet crew would work around that. The Defiant can also cloak. (FIRST VERSION DEFIANT ONLY)

[@heathward8826]

Are you sure it was only the first version of defiant that could cloak? And not any other class of ship. Although only the first ship had a true clock. But didnt the federation reverse engineer the cloaks and put them on other ships

[@modelysar]

Now we need Eaglemoss to start a Babylon 5 collection!

[@missyprime8198]

I've got 40 Eaglemoss Star Trek ships, if they ever released a Babylon 5 range I'd gladly sell my Star Trek collection to fund getting every B5 ship instead

[@chrissonofpear1384]

I currently only have some micro machines and a few Agents of Gaming builds.

[@ericbrammer2245]

At 15:25, you can start to see the 'reverse Thrusters' glowing in light-yellow. The Thrust sections on these ships are, somewhat-similarly to the Thunderbolt Starfighter, able to create Off-Axis Maneuvers while still flying forwards, but These Forwards-Facing engines allow for A HUGE Increase in acrobatics! Oh, and Cap'n, the Plesiosaur Fins are for HEAT Dispersal, and, NO, are not LIVING QUARTERS.

[@shadowqueen1701]

I have internal map of the ship. and they were done on a simple computer at the time. If you want the internal layout give me a shout.

[@simonoleary9264]

I think the Whitestar was designed to have the firepower of a large destroyer, but have the speed and manoeuvrability of a much smaller ship. As far as I was aware, no ships in B5 had shields. The intention was that the physics of the show would mimic real physics as much as possible, so the ships have momentum, inertia, no FTL in real space and no shields. The Whitestar had organic armour that could regenerate and radiate off a substantial amount of the energy from enemy weapons, making it very tough in combat, especially when combined with it's speed and manoeuvrability. If this were to face the DS9 defiant, I would have to give victory to the Defiant because it has real space FTL and shields. But take these away and things get more interesting. Lastly, it is a sad fact that none of the B5 rendering models exist anymore. Warner insisted on having all the computer files when B5 ended and would not allow any backups. Unfortunately they have lost the files, which is why B5 the lost tales actually used fan created models (pretty ironic considering Warner's legal war against fan websites infringing copyright).

[@robertbrown8796]

Both the WS & Defiant are powerful, highly maneuverable ships, but the WS wins in the maneuverability category. The defiant has shields and a cloaking device which gives them a seemingly obvious advantage in a fight, if they can track the nimble WS. The Defiant would Need to get a hard first hit, because the Vorlon technology is able to adapt relatively quickly so the longer the fight goes, the less advantage the Defiant has. As for firepower, I feel the WS is notably more powerful... Unless the Defiant has an amazing weapons officer, the WS will be near impossible to his since it is nearly invisible to targeting computers. B5 used something loosely similar to the Borg slipstream for ftl travel. In the beginning, they needed a jump gate, but the WS could generate a portal without assistance. That being said, I cannot say for certain, which ship would be faster racing across the sector, but I’m guessing the WS.

[@ColpoRosso]

Babylon 5 fx, powered by amiga toasters. Awesome stuff

[@darwinxavier3516]

And to think the grimdark fanatics want B5 effects to be redesigned because they look too cartoony. I'll take this over their high rez bayformer junk bricks anyday.

[@Davegvg3576]

@@darwinxavier3516 It started on lightwave 3D and the latest stuff was done in softimage.

[@deponia]

Ah the White star...what did someone say on the show "it looks like a plucked chicken" lol that line still resonates for me as its just not one of my favorite designs. What I always found odd was that the Excalibur from Crusade (B5 offshoot series) was termed a "destroyer class white star" yet I quite like the look of the Excalibur by comparison which is pretty significantly different in shapes and colours to that of the White star classic.

[@Adam_Boots]

I think the comment about the Excalibur was refering more to the weapons loadout rather than in design, it featured the same type beam weapons as the Whitestar though had a lot more of them.

[@deponia]

@@Adam_Boots Hmm far as I know they referred to it as a ship class not a weapons class so I'm not sure how well that was all worked out in technical terms. I vaguely recall Sheridan being initially underwhelmed by the Excalibur's weapon loadout saying something like "It's barely more powerful than a conventional white star" until he saw them bring the main battery online which, while more impressive, was too much of a power hog leaving the ship pretty vulnerable between shots.

[@dougc190]

Seems like they called everything a destroyer. I never heard them call anything a frigate a Corvette a cruiser battlecruiser battleship dreadnought. Always bother me

[@deponia]

@@dougc190 Yeah, same. I like when a universe gets expanded upon with a nice vast fleet of different ships and roles for those ships to perform. Makes it far more interesting to me.

[@brentbartley6838]

Last season, Episode 4 A View From the Gallery follows a couple station maintenance techs, Mack and Bo. Mack calls it a Plucked Chicken at first, til the end battle when he said they looked like angels swooping in. Yes I'm THAT big a B5 freak.

[@Malryth]

I never saw the joker mobile angle...but holy crap you made me laugh older Star Trek guy. I'm 52 years old and I grew up with Original Trek...STTNG and all that lot...and B5 blew my Canadian Mind. Great vid! Both of you!!! YOU Have a new Subscriber!!!

[@NightOwlModeler]

Spoiler... it is used in atmosphere in the TV series! And it kicks tail! NOM

[@darwinxavier3516]

And in the same battle, performs the first known jump INTO an atmosphere. While in a previous episode, flies through the dense atmosphere of Jupiter and performs the only known jump while in an atmosphere.

[@ken61175]

Yup! I believe it was when they announced the formation of the IA that we hear the WS flying thru Earth's atmosphere.

[@AlphaRaptor2k6]

That's not the Daedalus, that's the Prometheus the predecessor to that ship.

[@SGUDistantHope]

I dont believe we call it the Deadelious :) timecode if we do

[@blackearthdreams]

Power543 Fan Films / The Captain refers to the Daedalus at 7:08.

[@SGUDistantHope]

@@blackearthdreams Oh...well thats Stuart and not me...i wouldent make such a mistake...Stuart is not actually a Stargate fan xD Im pretty sure i mention she is called the promethious tho in the video so thats fine :)

[@heathward8826]

Finally. Someone had to say it

[@heathward8826]

@@SGUDistantHope no you didnt. And this isnt the first video that this has happened

[@signorUebelst]

Merry Christams to you all. great show, but I must say that 400 odd meters is larger then I imagined buy in scale to other ships in the B5 universe it could fit. IIRC the Whitestar supposedly has largely the same propulsion system as the larger Minbari ships. so a Gravimetric drive system which AFAIK is normally housed in those back fins. But since its supposedly the fastest ship around amybe its mixing some other technology into it which explains all those glowing bits pointing to the rear

[@jasonfrenz8609]

the skin was made of a substance that absorbed 80% of an energy weapons blast

[@smilingjay9863]

I gotta agree with the Captain. I was in my mid teens when Babylon 5 was airing, and the White Star was one of my absolute favorite ships around that time. I always wished they had larger versions of it, if I'm honest, but it perfectly filled the role that it was designed to be in. A Heavy Corvette/Light Frigate kind of light attack ship. Fast and effective, easily produced in large numbers, where you could scale up its power simply in numbers rather than individual size. Either way, an amazing starship from an era where we were a little more curious, and a little more obsessed with space than we are today.

[@joshguyer4593]

Holy crap... FINALLY!!! The whit star is my all time favorite ship. I have been waiting so long for someone to pay it some respect. And on a side note, energy shields are not a thing in B5. With the exception of the movie Third Space, armor was the main defensive measure the any of the races had.

[@milliesdoghouse2340]

Not exactly a true statement. Both the Vorlon and Shadows use energy shieilds (along with many other races), but in a different way from star trek. They don't project from the ship. They are generated nearly against the hull and they dissipate energy over the length of the shields. It is easily seen when Lita uses here powers to hold the battle crab still while the whitestar hits the crab with its forward gun for a continued focused blast. That is why energy blast changes the color of the shadow vessels over a large area. Eventually, the energy cannot be dissipated and the crab shrivels up and dies.

[@hpbifta]

I was just finishing my Diploma in Computer Studies in 1994 which would have been just before the early modelling would've started for season 3 of B5, I was in the process of applying to Foundation Imaging as one of the possible avenues of employment after my course. When i handed my application to the employment agency they said that before my application would be sent to the company for consideration could they ask me a few questions, These questions basically boiled down to did I own an Amiga 4000 or could I get one as it would be required if I wished to work for the company and did I have experience BOB modelling on Amiga's and experience with ImageFX and dPaint. All the primary CG was done on Amigas and rendered on a farm of A4000's. Many people say that Photoshop would've been used but it only existed on the PC and Mac and was basically for grayscale work at the time and was not in anyway the package we know of today (Paintshop and CorelDraw were the bigger art packages of the time), Any work done in photoshop would've been ported over to Amiga then coloured and touched up in a custom edited build of dPaint (After all dPaint was the GoTo art package for the Amiga,) used by the studio so it would be ready for application to the final models and up for rendering. Sadly I felt I had to withdraw my application at the time as I just plain could not afford to buy the hardware I needed. It may not have strictly been necessary for the job (and not actually expected by the company at the time) but anybody who wanted a serious shot at a job of that stature of the time would've have had their own hardware to work on at home out of office hours just to have a serious hope of keeping up with the workflow. After all these were still the earlyish days of CG especially on TV budgets. Considering what the show became I wish I had just gone for it now. You never know I may have become one of the modelers for the Whitestar itself back in the day, (Though I expect as a junior I would've been lucky to get a chance to design one of the cargo haulers orbiting B5 which was always just sliding out of screen in one of the establishing shots hehe) and would have happily shared my experiences with you guys. Alas that is all I can tell you, I hope it helps.

[@alanhilton3611]

The fins at the back were part of the gravitic drive or gravity drive system that all mimbari ships use.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

The fins on the back of the Whitestar provide gravitic thrust. Mimbari ships utilize gravitic propulsion similar to that of the Vorlons.

[@TrueKoalaKnight]

The bridge section looks like it could be a lifeboat.

[@filmandpage1138]

Excellent video, I always liked the White Star ships from Babylon 5. The White Star always reminded me of the Romulan D'deridex class.

[@Kian2002]

I always liked the aquatic influence of the B5 ships: the Vorlon Squids; the Minbari Angel fish; the Centari Manta Rays. The more, comparatively, primitive the civilisation the more industrial and angular the design of their fleet.

[@seannewboy8612]

The original whitestar by the way was the first ship according to canon to open open a jump portal into a gravity well, this was able to be done due to an advance scout team on the ground able to give detailed/exact coordinates. I have always loved that ship. P.s. commander you called the minbari cruiser a "whale", I have always thought more along the lines of an angel fish.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

I thought it looked like a blend between a Sun Fish and a different type of fish.

[@darwinxavier3516]

I had a male betta fish that looked soooo much like a Sharlin.

[@seannewboy8612]

Darwin Xavier that was the other one I was thinking of.

[@seanp8220]

Why weren't the white stars used much in season 5 ?

[@decebal01US]

Cool looking ship, one of my favorite in B5. Wish they made a Blu-Ray remaster for this show :)

[@johncunningham4820]

These are BY FAR the most beautiful Ship Design in ANY Franchise . Elegant and Deadly . Batted WAY above their weight . This is Larger than I envisioned , however , being Organic in Origin they could probably come in a Range of sizes fairly easily .

[@RCTPatriot75]

It's not amazing that both shows did the same thing. I think DS9 is a great show that stands on its own, but, it's fact that the ds9 producers had the B5 Bible for over a year and stole the ideas. They settled with JMS for an undisclosed amount. In legal terms, that means all the evidence was there and they had no choice but to pay out big in order to save face.

[@madmonkee6757]

It does have a certain resemblance to the big green Romulan ships (nacelles on each side, an open space in the middle).

[@podemosurss8316]

The White Star is an undersized star destroyer. Really, despite its relatively small size (much smaller than the Minbari battleships or the Omega star destroyers), it has a lot of firepower. Also, its hull uses "organic" technology which means that it both learns from experience (deflecting better each hit) and also regenerates. They are crewed by the Ahnla-Sho'k/Rangers, which are an order established by the Minbari leader Valen to watch out the frontiers and help fight against the Shadows (an ancient race motivated by war).

[@HobbyView]

In reply to Manga comment at 19:40, the White Star actually has a passing resemblance to the ship in the Sol Bianca anime.

[@dswynne]

I wrote a story where the world of Babylon 5 and the world of Star Trek were in the same universe. The combine timeline still had an Earth exploration ship accidentally damaged a Minbari starship, which sparked the "Minbari-Federation War". The two sides were evenly matched in technology, since Earth (the primary target of the Minbari) had allies, with the Minbari having a slight edge in space travel technology (thanks to their "Jump Drive"). The funny thing is that Starfleet had already began to commission heavy cruisers, starting with the Constitution-class (circa 2045), but the war with the Minbari would force of the Ares-class (earlier than in the 'Trek Timeline). Thinking that the war had weakened the Federation, the Klingons would began a four-year campaign known as the Four Year War, running both "hot" and "cold", until the Klingon mysteriously sued for peace (see: STD). FYI.

[@Crimsonguyver]

I will also say the B5 ships don’t have Shields mostly they use point Defense weapons to intercept incoming weapons. The Whitestar uses an adaptive hull system white learns and adapts to incoming attacks after receiving them so subsequent attacks are less effective.

[@jamesfry8983]

ok you forgot to mention about the armour of the ship learns from each attack, the ship also has an automated repair system,

[@Montenick1]

Those engine fins on the back allow it to open the jump portals to go into hyperspace. Also the Mimbari never used Organic tech.

[@sw-gs]

White Star's organic parts of external hull are "grown" around core hull and integrate itself with ship internal systems. So not only armor of the ship is organic but how it is steered, that's why ship helm officers are neurolinked and capable of using limited telapatic abilities with eachother and with organic parts of ship to imitate brain to body comunication within limit of living being.

[@grandpaladin1701]

I believe/think that the Minbari fin elements on the White Star class/Minbari warships are supposed to be the jump engines.

[@darwinxavier3516]

That's been my theory, but I've never seen anything in show to support it. Just makes the most sense. edit: I read that wrong. Thought you said gravimetric engines.

[@alyssadraculesti]

They are part of the Gravitic Drive propulsion system not the jump drive.

[@grandpaladin1701]

Alyssa Draculesti - Thanks for that, I couldn’t find specifics online about what propulsion system it was. Just that it was related to one of the drive systems.

[@alyssadraculesti]

@@grandpaladin1701 NP hon - if you ever want to read up more Mongoose Publishing put out a massive Minbari fact book for their table top RPG game (Im currently running a group in that Sci-fi universe).

[@grandpaladin1701]

Alyssa Draculesti - Excellent! Thanks for the recommendation! I’ve run/play tabletop RPG’s for years, and my FLGS never carried the B5 game line.

[@90lancaster]

Oh what a lovely Xmas Pressy - thanks chaps.

[@craigs71]

Looking at the scale compared to the Galaxy class, I can't help but wonder how big the Omega class destroyer is (fooking huuuge).

[@jamiecampbell8855]

Even without vorlon technology, the minbari were rumoured to have organic technology. That might explain the fins on minbari ships.

[@guardian1326]

It was a very interesting ship. The captain didn't have a private room, they slept in the bunk rooms with the rest of the crew. I remember, though I can't remember what episode, the were walking through a corridor, and behind them was the engines like the way the engine room of the Star Trek TOS Cony was laid out. The thing was huge. In the episode Ship of Tears, where they find the ship full of telepaths, we saw that it had tractor beams by use of magnetic fields. Great ship.

[@trevtall1094]

Babylon 5 is definitely an underrated show especially given how bad modern Sci-fi is atm. One of the first shows to be pre written as a 5 season tv show with a solid over arching plot and good character development who were more down to earth and relatable than Star Treks snobish idealism. Sadly due to DS9 coming out at the same time many TV watchers at the time dismissed Babylon 5 as a clone even though it was Trek and Paramount/cbs who copied from B5's plot bible given to them by the writer who was trying sell the show to a studio for years prior. It's time that the YT nerd community payed B5 and it's creator it's dues, especially given how poor current sci-fi is

[@Tounushi]

Minbari don't really have organic tech. Not in the way the Vorlons do. Minbari ships are made/grown from crystalline materials with metal structures inbetween.

[@rhorynotmylastname7781]

Why?

[@roygrutchfield5715]

The Liberator from BBC's Blakes 7 , 1978-1981 also had regenerating hull plus an AI computer like the Andromeda Ascendant from the Andromeda . Many early idea's that other shows developed, many due limited special affects and a limited budget from the days before computers.

[@davidhernandez9985]

MerryX-mas Captain Foley& Mr.Gottings!

[@762rk95tp]

It does fly in the atmosphere in few times in the show.

[@dk6419]

Excellent video the whitestar is such a unique ship I'm so glad you guys did a review. How will see the excalibur class soon as well.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

We need to see a FleetYards ep on the Victory Class Destroyer, that would be great =D

[@power543]

we dont have those 3D models so it's not on our list atm

[@kamenriderblade2099]

=(

[@carlace777]

whitestars did fly near mars surface when they strafed ground targets in season 5, so the wings seem to work

[@davidbergfors6820]

I didn't know this was an organic ship, when you said that I saw it in a new light.

[@missyprime8198]

The "skin" of the ship can dissipate energy blasts enabling it to take more hits than much larger ships, the White Star is atmosphere capable but thanks to Minbari anti grav technology it doesn't need to be aerodynamic. It's always been a work of art in my eyes, even now it's still the most beautiful spaceship ever

[@DaxVJacobson]

I kind of remember Babylon 5, digital production being connected to and dependent on the Amiga (1985) Photoshop (1987) and LightWave 3D (1990)

[@madmonkee6757]

I suspect that the White Star probably has similar interior space to the Defiant (aka, tiny). The White Star may be bigger, but I suspect that big parts of it are the engines (jump engines and gravimetric engines) and weapons. It's organic in that it has some self-repairing properties (and can adapt to certain kids of attack) but there's no indication that there are organs. The fins on the back are the engines. Ships in Babylon 5 don't have shields. (Shielding, of course, can refer to the protection on the electronics inside, and the Minbari ships do have that.)

[@raabaddler5802]

The fins are the (Wheels) of the primary reaction-less drive

[@jamesfry8983]

Babylon 5 was amazing I remember watching it as a child it started when i was 8

[@magicstix0r]

7:21 there's no way that scale is right. The Whitestar's bridge is completely visible on the outside and you can see the windows. Those windows show up in the show multiple times and provide a perfect reference scale.

[@dianavespid937]

It started as 117 or so meters. The latest official scale was about 450 meters and it hasn’t changed since.

[@milamber142]

Rear fins, I am guessing they are stabilisers for atmospheric flight

[@csconsul]

Anyone ever notice that sea quest dev is a white star with a foil. And it can fly in atmosphere when they attack mars shadow base

[@Adamwofford]

The white star also has the ability to adapt to enemies energy weapons to the point where it could become immune to them

[@darwinxavier3516]

Up to a point I imagine. We never see them shrug off hits from anything larger than Shadow fighters. And I imagine that the learned experiences of the organic hull are not shared between Whitestars. It would've been great to see these ships getting "trained" in adapting to different weapons fire.

[@Adamwofford]

@@darwinxavier3516 yeah, that would have been cool, maybe in crusade series, if it got other season, that's what we need more B5 shows

[@darwinxavier3516]

More shows would be possible but difficult since so much time has passed and the actors have aged so much. While some are no longer with us.

[@Adamwofford]

@@darwinxavier3516 true, but you could set later in the time line, and give us a end to crusade series and who was the new enemy from legend of the rangers tv movie

[@darwinxavier3516]

Crusade and Rangers require the other characters to at least exist somewhere in the universe. Handling that would be very tricky. But I hear Agents of SHIELD manage to not have any Marvel MCU appearances and still seem connected. Again it would be tricky, and there are more hurdles to avoid now than ever. Like the temptation to make the show more grimdark like newBSG, Stargate Universe, ST Discovery just because its the current bandwagon flavor of the month. Or visually rebooting existing designs to cater to the vapid sensibilities of the highdef-obsessed new technology fiends who think every single computer interface needs to be a 3D holographic display cuz ZOMG we have so much better right now than in this fictional universe. So any official attempt to revitalize B5, I'm gonna meet with extreme suspicion. I almost don't want anyone to touch B5 because of how bad other IPs have been handled.

[@kavikkang9411]

The mocking nickname for this ship, that I think came from the production crew, was "Plucked Chicken".

[@saladinbob]

The in-universe reason for the lack of detail at the back is because it uses a gravitic drive as propulsion so there is no direct thrust. Also, if this follows the Sharlin design philosophy, the 'flippers' contain the jump engines. Obviously this is to get around budget and technical constraints which I think is a smart way of doing that.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

I thought the "Flippers" contained the gravimetric drive and the Jump Engines were located else where?

[@saladinbob]

@@kamenriderblade2099 If you remember during Season 2, I think it was, when the Tragati tries to escape, the second cruiser cuts the tail off thus preventing its jump. I can't guarantee the Whitestar's jump engines are in the same place, but it's a good bet since they're both of Minbari design.

[@darwinxavier3516]

The Sharlin's tail fin is substantially larger and could've housed the jump drive as well. But I think the fins are primarily meant as gravimetric propulsion emitters. The Whitestar's tail fins are far too thin to be jump engines that would normally be on a MUCH larger ship.

[@kamenriderblade2099]

I'm thinking the Jump Engines can be mounted where-ever they want since it probably consists of an internal capacitor / battery with a forward emitter mounted some where on the space frame. Maybe on the Sharlin class, the Jump Engine (Capacitor/Battery) is located in the tail fin while in the White Star, it's placed else where. For many episodes, they've stated that they can't jump right away after using a jump, it takes time for the "Jump Engines" to recharge until they have enough energy to use it.

[@Keemperor40K]

Vorlon Organic armor, puts most metal and crystalline armors to shame. The thickness of the armor is unknown, but even regardless of thickness it can deflect and absorb damage that would gut a Mimbari ship, made of Mimbari crystalline armor, for comparison. Mimbari crystalline armor is the best armor of the younger races, and it can again absorb and deflect damage that would gut a Human Omega class Destroyer. This I say so that you have a sense of power dynamics in Babylon 5. Vorlon organic armor is millennia ahead of anything the Mimbari (the most advanced of the younger races) can produce, and the only reason the white star has access to this advanced armor type is because the Vorlons gave the Mimbari the know how to produce a workable, but less capable version of the armor they use on their own ships. Not unlike how the US or Russia sell weapons to other countries, that are workable and effective, but simpler versions of the ones Russia and the US use themselves.

[@orillion3697]

the whitestar was reverse-engingineered from the vorlon and minbari tech it was built from ships having a much larger power reserves and greater advanced weapons...

[@milliesdoghouse2340]

It's a bit scary but the guy in the top left viewscreen looks just like a guy I used to do TKD with on the navy base where I'm stationed.

[@Quan10Mack]

I don't believe Babylon 5 made any reference to their warships or combat vessels having energy based defenses or shields. I always got the sense that there was just armor or organic hull regeneration like the Whitestar. In the B5 movie "A Call To Arms", when Sheridan is touring the new ships, the Excalibur and the Victory, there is dialogue that about the impressive armor of the new destroyers in that the crystalline armor used can reflect 80% of incoming fire. I don't remember anything in the show proper or spinoffs or movie that made mention of some kind of shielding like in Star Trek or Star Wars.

[@fredikleberg5056]

Whitestar was atmosphere capable. Jump in to Mars atmosphere and on Earth, Whitestar fleet atmospheric flyby. Whitestar had Gravitation engine so the back fins might be some kinda engine out put devises. Love The whitestar nice color and shapes.

[@shaunryan-izzard8110]

It would be nice if, when someone is commenting on a sci fi series, they actually know about the series. The Mimbari where NOT organic tech builders. They had an "organic" design aesthetic, but only two "main" species used organic tech in Babylon 5 , Vorlons and Shadows (White Stars incorporated Vorlon tech, and some advanced human designs used Shadow tech, but this was not either races designs).

[@gundamm5]

Whitestar vs Defiant now thats one spacefight that I would like to see :)

[@Jack_Stafford]

To me the windows always tell the story, despite what producers try to force on a ship later on. We can see the windows from the outside, we can see the windows from the inside, so the entire structure is significantly smaller than the saucer of a constitution-class, with radically less actual living space since there are a lot of curving thin pylons, flying wings and fins with, besides the bridge, only a thin Central spine and the bulbous front for some interior volume. So, much of the size is actually Wing structure and interior-wise has no near the living capacity of even a constitution-class saucer. They can print whatever they want in a to sell it but you can't tell me not to believe "My Lying Eyes". Imagine that window being roughly the size of a person standing and you need not explore any further. Any talk of shuttle Bays or anything else would have to be the front part of the ship completely hollowed out specifically for that purpose or the shuttles parked in very shallow compact spaces with low ceilings internal to the central spine or completely arranged flush to the exterior of a ship like an escape pod, Dropship or captains craft. Which isn't a bad design, we just can't think of a hanger Bay being this huge room with uselessly high ceilings all the time. That's wasted space, in space. Maybe the fighters somehow are almost flush with the ship much like a captain's yacht and a membrane enclosed over them. Otherwise they would have to be hollowed out from engine room space or living space at the front. The size is the size, producers are not experts at spatial relations nor _spacial_ relations. They just want to make an episode work to make money, they may not even be fans or even knowledgeable of Science Fiction. So their opinions don't mean much to me.

[@mattikake9859]

Yep. Shots on the show from the inside of the bridge looking out the windows is the only clue to it's actual size. It's much smaller than made out here. Also when a whitestar collided with the launch bay on a omega class destroyer used to launch star furies is a more rough clue. It's not very big.

[@dragonweyr44]

I wonder when scifi ships switched from the bridge going from the most forward part of the ship like in Firefly to a shit with the bridge being above and in the middle of the ship?

[@jasonpowers6092]

dragonweyr44 Star Destroyers put them at the topmost rear position. Bridges are all over the place, really.

[@garypalmer997]

Now i cant unsee it lol 19:09