Who Are the Good Guys? An Analysis of the Skyrim Civil War

[@nightangelx1513]

It really is a testament to the quality of Skyrim that even after 10 years we’re still making videos about it.

[@msihcs8171]

And a testament to the failure of any company to come up with something to completely dethrone it. There are other games that do each portion better (in some cases considerably better) but none seem to wrap everything into one package and just succeed in every regard.

[@Leviathan7777]

quality nah something yes

[@Andres_W]

Oh yeah.... Emil Pagliarulo is a genius! LOL 🤦‍♂

[@sit-insforsithis1568]

@@msihcs8171I think rdr2 might be that game

[@agk4589]

@@sit-insforsithis1568 Every time I play the intro and I get the part where I have to play a quick time event of Arthur Morgan repairing a wheel on a carriage I always think to myself yeah this is the apex of gaming.

[@ED11169]

The most ideal scenario would be having a dragonborn human unite the realms by presenting himself as the second coming of tiber septim and then proceed to unleash the Numidium on top of the summerset isles like Todd Howard unleashing an unwanted skyrim update on my mod setup.

[@vacuxamunita]

LOL" those updates.

[@90snetworkproductions79]

Very relatable that last part. But the only way for the war to stop is for the Dragonborn to never come back from fighting Alduin. Both sides agreed to cease hostilities, so if you never came back, the war would be indefinitely delayed. Of course, you'd have to get plenty of the guilds you can join to vouch for you, claiming your, "return," taking an unknown amount of time due to it being in another realm that operates on a different timescale. (One hour in Sovengarde being a year, for example.) All while you paid a visit to the face sculptor in Riften and had some surgery done. Its either that, or let Herma Mora do some nasty things with tentacles to you to amp the bend will shout to be as powerful as Miraak's was. Both Stormcloaks and Imperials would be mind-controlled, but they'd stop fighting, and be loyal to the Dragonborn, who would lead them in battle vs the Elves.

[@jacobbown]

@@90snetworkproductions79 same for the last part, except vampires instead of herma mora. Heck, probably both, i usually save dawnguad for last.

[@RegiusEques]

Lol, yes that would be the perfect outcome.

[@taibasarovadil]

​@90snetworkproductions79 this feels like the main quest of Morrowind

[@chriscloninger2355]

Anyone else think its chilling a guild of time travelling wizards appeared after thousands of years of silence to stop the thalmor from obtaining a piece of a god?

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

That... is a good point. They didn't even appear to stop the Mythic Dawn, that's a testament to how insane and concerning the Thalmor are.

[@thalmor_justiciar]

Damn them stupid wizards!

[@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271]

Dang I forgot about that,thalmor must go

[@Private-Potato]

It’s like when Switzerland stops being neutral. You know the situation is serious.

[@infebris]

@@Cyrus_T_Laserpunchbecause akatosh, the god of time, got there first to defeat mehrunes dagon, time works weirdly for timeless beings, think of it as if they don't *have* to do anything, they won't

[@spyrofrost9158]

Empire: I don't feel like fighting the Dominion anymore. Hammerfell: Fine. I'll do it myself.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

And then look at how the Argonians of Black Marsh do. First they win the Oblivion Crisis by themselves. Including invading the Deadlands. (Yes, they were so badass, they kicked Mehrunes Dagon's butt so hard, they started invading the planes of Oblivion) And since they're on a run, they invade Morrowind. Then they decide that the Empire can get lost and go independent.

[@sheogorath6834]

@@HappyBeezerStudios "First they win the Oblivion Crisis by themselves. Including invading the Deadlands. (Yes, they were so badass, they kicked Mehrunes Dagon's butt so hard, they started invading the planes of Oblivion)" That's just argonian propaganda.

[@KopperNeoman]

Empire: And we'll help! Just don't tell the Dominion. Take all the credit.

[@HillbillyGamer7]

Exactly why I think empire is done. I would love to see the empire fall and provinces begin to start doing their own thing. Hell if Hammerfell Highrock and Skyrim United they could definitely beat back the Dominion.

[@nacetucker4939]

I really hope we get a chance to play that in tes 6

[@GreenMan1999]

The Argonians are kept outside because of the tension with the dark elves. Many of the dark elves are refugees because of the Argonian invasion.

[@infebris]

thats right but what does it have to do with this?

[@nexerkarigum4031]

Sounds like a good excuse

[@jackgrove4621]

uh no. they are refugees because of the red mountain.

[@GreenMan1999]

@@jackgrove4621 Both

[@james51529]

The Dunmers we see in Windhelm are refugees via the Red Mountain eruption. The Dunmer that ran from the Argonian Invasion likely went to Cyrodill instead. If they went to Skyrim we would have seen a large population of refugees in Riften.

[@sebisultana5603]

2 Random Aldmeri Dominion soldiers chatting: "Are we the baddies?"

[@varthalgamekiin4931]

The other one turns to the first, "Um...Yeah? How are you just now realizing this?"

[@dashua1735]

@@varthalgamekiin4931 And then the both of them laughs

[@devinm.6149]

I know I recognize this but I can't remember the name of the Duo it came from.

[@sulliedpat]

@@devinm.6149That Mitchell And Webb Effect

[@devinm.6149]

@@sulliedpat thank you muchly.

[@highlyopinionated5611]

Although I doubt Bethesda did it intentionally, for me the civil war is one of the best written quests in the Elder Scrolls period, simply on the bases that there is no right or wrong side here. Both Empire and Stormcloaks have valid points, but also glaring flaws that make them unsuited to rule. The only right answer would be to remain neutral and protect Skyrims people as a whole, but the game pretty much forces you to intervene eventually, after defeating Alduin. Wich forces you to pick whatever you see as the lesser of two evils. It gives me major Game of Thrones vibes (the early seasons) and I love it.

[@chakatBombshell]

The right decision is to unify Tamriel and destroy the Nazified elves like Pelinal Whitestrake intended.

[@edot7266]

Actually you can avoid it entirely. You can set up a peace council at the throat of the world with thr greybeards and they'll agree to a ceasefire until the dragons are dealt with

[@highlyopinionated5611]

@@edot7266 Exactly. Until the dragons are dealt with. Once you defeat Alduin, a couple of in-game days later if you return to Whiterun and speak to Balgruuf, the side you picked at the beginning of the game will request him to finally commit to their side. The ultimatum is spoken and the battle of Whiterun takes place, just as it would if you play the civil war quest intentionally.

[@robinsondermann6715]

The Story behind the civil war is great, but Not how they dod the quests

[@highlyopinionated5611]

@@robinsondermann6715 👍

[@Angelikatosh]

Love the thought at the end, about every character being their own person and having separate world views and beliefs - that’s how you really get the most out of an RPG, and that’s the right way to play a game like Skyrim. Great video!

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey, thank you so much! I appreciate that like crazy. And yes, exactly! I get so freakin hyped about playing RPGs that way. It is definitely the best way - make a character and make choices based on what that character would do. It’s so much more immersive and fun, and it opens you up to other possibilities and perspectives that you may have never entertained otherwise. Cheers!

[@thalmor_justiciar]

Of course, there are many different ways to go about it, but if you go against the Thalmor then you're wrong.

[@POINT69.................]

​@@10pointsofslashingsimp

[@Camelsarecool-tz6xp]

There's an EXTREMELY rare but highly important dialouge Tullius will say after the armistice with the Graybeards. He basically says that after dealing with Ulfric, He'll regroup the legion to drive the Thalmor back.

[@joemcdermott1213]

It doesn't make sense because Ulfric would be fighting the Thalmor if he wasn't dealing with the Empire. If the one and only priority for Tullius is the Thalmor, he could choose to withdraw from the civil war... but of course, he doesn't.

[@popcornyumm]

@@joemcdermott1213 you cant just withdraw from war, ulfric would just gain more land

[@yoshida.azumi.]

​@@popcornyummYou're onto something. Ulfric mentions upon Stormcloak victory in Solitude that he expects conflict and movement even outside Skyrim. And considering he is extremely cunning and opportunistic with his actions (him challenging Torygg being a prime example), I'd wager he would without a doubt push past beyond Skyrim's borders and towards Cyrodill or other regions if possible or allowed, just to inflate himself further, and grab a random excuse on the way to justify his actions, like "trust me bro, I'm anti-Thalmor".

[@RPGTKingpin]

Something I didn't hear mentioned is what Tullius says if you end the quest siding with the Stormcloaks. The specific phrasing escapes me at the moment but the jist is he heavily implies this is exactly what the Dominion wanted, and that this war was always about breaking up the empire to make it easier to conquer. On its own this can be seen as a case of guilting you into regretting your decision. But that only makes sense in a meta sense, if Tullius is aware he is part of a story. The more likely case is that he knew all along that the war against the Dominion wasn't over. How couldn't he? He's a senior Imperial General singularly tasked with bringing one of the Empire's strongest provinces back under control. The Blades may be gone but the Penitus Oculatus has taken their place as the Empire's intelligence branch. The Thalmor, their beliefs and their objectives have to have been at least hinted at over the course of the war and ensuing cold war that followed. They outright boast of Elven supremacy, and will likely have done as much during the war and during interrogations at the time. They refer to the Great War as the First War against the Empire (also likely well known to Tullius and the Penitus Oculatus.) Then there's the Synod. They were actively trying to get hold of artifacts of power independently of the Thalmor. Bringing the strongest artifacts in Tamriel together in the Imperial City; the heart of the Empire and the last place to fall in any upcoming war. All this tells me that the Empire is trying to consolidate their power quietly for the second war against the Dominion, and the signing of the White-Gold Concordat was just a placating gesture to buy them time. Combine that with the assassination of the Emperor (who was widely known to be relatively weak and disliked, especially after the war) by a member of the Elder Council and the fact he was neither surprised nor particularly saddened by it, and it paints another interesting image: His death is part of the plan. Dying of old age and handing the throne down to a successor he's chosen will only extend that legacy of weakness and unpopularity. But being assassinated by an unknown party would instead galvanize the Empire's citizens. It would make them angry, defensive, eager to strike back, because that's how faction mentality works. It's "us" and "them". By attacking the leader of the Empire and killing him, it's the highest form of hostility that can be committed against the group as a whole. Rather than weaken the empire, it would have everyone in an uproar, calling for the blood of the one who attacked them. It would *strengthen* the next Emperor's grip on the Throne. Collectively, these points paint a compelling picture for the Empire's next move. They're preparing for war, and it's likely going to blow up in the Thalmor's pointy snobby faces.

[@gregorysmith1402]

Well if you read ulfrics dossier at the high Elfs party..it will say that they are using him to do exactly what they need without his knowledge. They want the stormcloaks to take out the imperials and so that they can get what they wanted from them in the first place

[@reffa2858]

I understand what the empire is doing but I dont agree with the way they're doing it.

[@RPGTKingpin]

@@reffa2858 What alternative would you suggest, based on the abovementioned theory? What would be the better approach in your mind?

[@reffa2858]

@@RPGTKingpin well I think the emperor escaping from the Whitegold Tower, then taking it back from the Thalmor only to then sign the Whitegold Concordant was a mistake. Especially without consulting the people it would effect the most (Redguards/Nords). I think when they Escaped, they should've regrouped with Skyrim or Hammerfell. True, the Whitegold tower would be contested by the Thalmor (but it was already.) But as we can see, Redguards and the Nords can hold their own against the Thalmor. I think the imperials took the easy route laced with lies, betrayals, and false hope. The funny thing is that both the Thalmor and the Imperial Legion are so arrogant that they believe the other is playing right into their hands. But what gets me is Tulius saying Ulfric is dividing the empire when they themselves were sectioning off parts of it to the Thalmor.

[@RPGTKingpin]

@@reffa2858 If memory serves, there was a good reason for them to push the tower immediately. I don't know the details but I recall that the Thalmor were doing something there magically. And considering their end goal is the literal end of the world, it probably wasn't anything the empire could afford to allow them to do. Time was critical for that counterattack. I do agree that Hammerfell and Skyrim should have been consulted before the signing, but I feel like that might also have been an ultimatum, and while the Empire was exhausted and had no energy to keep the fight going, the Dominion still had more forces and resources to keep up the pressure. So I legitimately think the signing was a desperation move to give the Empire time to recover and rebuild its ranks, because refusing would have ended in a longer, bloodier war that would 100% end in victory for the Dominion. Or at the very least, it would have ended in the destruction of the Empire as a political entity. Any plan that goes "let's fight until we lose, and let our people figure out what to do after we've lost" is not a good plan. Because at that point, the Empire, its provinces, its people and their resources will be so exhausted that they're completely at the Dominion's mercy to do with whatever they wish. Considering it's the *Third* Aldmeri Dominion, speaks of racial superiority, and is willing to purge even other elves [The Wood Elves, for example], I think we can comfortably say these guys are a very blatant Third Reich allegory, complete with the eugenics, ethnic cleansing, probably concentration camps, slavery, and so on. So yeah, I think the Empire made the right call there. It's just unfortunate that it had some consequences for portions of the empire. I don't think the Empire is actually as arrogant as you think. They can't be, really. The Thalmor are literally walking through their territory with impunity. Imprisoning Imperial citizens, torturing and killing them, attacking wanderers on the road if they are suspected of being against the Dominion. Any illusion of arrogance is probably just that; an illusion. Because they know the Thalmor are watching, and their plan hinges on the Empire being able to blindside them. And that's already hard enough with them having to physically recruit men and build up their arsenals, siege weapons, magical artifacts, and so on. As for what Tullius said, I refer back to what I said earlier. The current situation with sections of Hammerfell being surrendered was probably never intended to be permanent. Same for Talos worship. But it was the only way to save the Empire from absolute destruction, so they agreed to it [knowing full well it was temporary and not intending to honour it once they had the ability to do otherwise], with the intention of reconnecting and reversing once they were in a position to fight the war properly.

[@xanderhuskie5172]

I always go empire for the exact reasons you do, with the added belief that a United and powerful empire is the best way to set up an ultimate future victory over the Thalmor

[@ChaoticGoodPeasant23]

There is literally no reason to believe the Empire would go against the Thalmor. They've bent over for them everytime to date, and will do it again. They aren't going to suddenly develop a backbone lmfao.

[@McHobotheBobo]

​@ChaoticGoodPeasant23 It's a matter of manpower not backbone, the victory in the Imperial City proves that. Mer have the advantage of living longer, men have the advantage of breeding faster. The longer is peace, the mightier is man. Worth noting as well the Thalmor did not have open agents in the empire until after Ulfric's convenient little outburst in Markarth......

[@MrRawrCEO]

@@ChaoticGoodPeasant23There are plenty of reasons why you should believe that the Empire would go against them...many in their military aren't happy about current affairs and very eager for round 2. That said there are also plenty of people in the empire who are corrupt as hell and don't want another war since it's "bad for business" so it could go either way.

[@RegiusEques]

Agreed

[@martincostasvigliecca8984]

Nah dude, the empire are the Thalmor bitches. And they are just enforcing the Thalmor rules for them. So fuk the empire! (sorry for my bad english)

[@pwn3ronetwothree]

It's important to note as well, that Windhelm has a number of Altmer living in it that are in good standing with the community, and don't get flack from people like Rolf Stone-fist. If Ulfric or the Stormcloaks would have a problem with any of the elves, it would be the Altmer and not the Dunmer due to the Aldmeri Dominion.. And on the topic of Rolf Stone-fist, while he's crude, his suspicions that those loyal to the Empire are hiding in the Grey Quarter is actually true. Upstairs in the New Gnisis Cornerclub, the owner has a suit of Imperial Armor on his shelf. People often overlook the fact that of all of the cities in Skyrim, Windhelm is the only city with a sizable population of Dunmer, as well as the only city that actively took in refugees from Morrowind. Of course that's going to raise tensions in the city, but Ulfric saw it as important enough to give an entire quarter of his city to the refugees. After this happened, the Argonians showed up, and it takes very little knowledge of the lore to know that the tensions between the Argonians and Dunmer are HIGH due to the Dunmer engaging in slavery of the beast races for so long. The Argonians invaded Morrowind as retribution for the slavery. Ulfric keeping the Argonians out of the city is done entirely to avoid a small civil war from breaking out in his city. Moving onto the Empire, people claim that they're the good guys for trying to beat back the racist Stormcloaks, but lets look at Solitude, the headquarters of the Empire in Skyrim. For one, they outright BAN Khajiit from their city, much like every other city does in Skyrim, so they aren't better in that regard. And General Tullius, the man who is often regarded as an Honorable and Respectful man REGULARLY makes derogatory remarks about the Nords of Skyrim, disrespecting their traditions and acting as if Imperials are superior. And finally, since somehow people continue to get this messed up to this day, the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric refers to him as an Asset. This does not mean 'Agent' or 'Ally' or even imply that he's working with the Thalmor, simply that they have their uses for him, which includes allowing his war to rage on for as long as possible to keep the empire busy. This is the most misunderstood piece of info in the game, and as much as I think it's a genius plot point, I wish they hadn't included it because all it did was give a bunch of midwits on Reddit something to scream about for 13 years.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey, dude - so apparently there’s another video out there where some guy super duper hones in on the “asset” thing, and a bunch of people in here have immediately jumped in the comments section as soon as they hear me speak the word “asset” before watching the rest of the video to tell me I don’t know the difference between “asset” and “agent”. Which, by the way, is straight up hilarious to the people in my life that know me personally 😂 I never said that I think Ulfric is working with or for the Thalmor, willing or knowing. I said that the implication in the dossier is that A) the Thalmor have contacted him before in some capacity, and B) they allow him to operate because they see him as useful. He is absolutely an asset to the Thalmor because he’s destabilized one of the strongest provinces in Tamriel. And their uses for him may go far beyond the civil war. That doesn’t mean he has to be helping them directly - but he is, objectively, helping them indirectly. The possibility is of course there that their meaning behind “asset” is deeper than that, which I brought up in the video, but I don’t buy into that very much. And even upon a Stormcloak victory, Ulfric Stormcloak is still some type of Thalmor asset. There’s nothing misunderstood about that and it still feeds my ultimate point, so I have no idea why all these dudes are like, “well, he said ‘asset’. Gotta go quote that video at him now.” I’m sorry if this comes across as directed at you or anything like that, it’s really not lol. I sincerely appreciate your comment and insight, I’ve just had 40 million dudes tell me I’m stupid because I don’t know what an asset is and I’m frankly tired of it as they’re all putting words in my mouth and assuming I believe something I don’t because some other guy on KZbin had a strong point (that doesn’t apply here). I feel like all the “agent vs. asset” guys are just jumping down my throat without taking the time to digest my point. This video is about how both sides have flaws, racists (and I don’t personally think that Ulfric is one of them), and otherwise. Everybody is right and wrong at the same time, everybody is the good guy and we’re all ripping into eachother about it lol. So far everything the “agent vs. asset” guys have mentioned are all things that I agree with. I don’t think Ulfric is racist or being puppeted by Thalmor, Bethesda just put in enough threads to make you able to lean that way. I don’t think the situation in Windhelm is evidence of Ulfric being racist, I just think his hands are full with the war and he’s making the best decisions he’s capable of while embroiled in a province-spanning civil war. And I’m not a big fan of Tullius and his condescending attitude towards other races at all. Like, I’m on your side, man - I’m just not on your side in the fictional, video game war. And that’s the beauty of this storytelling.

[@pwn3ronetwothree]

@@10pointsofslashing I was not referring to you with the comment about the asset vs Agent thing. I watched your entire video before commenting and you didn't mess it up. I get that having a bunch of people bring up the same thing to you is annoying, but I wasn't pointing it at you directly. None of my comment was really a directed attack or anything like that, just adding to the conversation. I mentioned in another comment about PatricianTV's video on Skyrim, and how the section about the Civil war is a really interesting watch since you seem interested in the topic.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey man, thank you so much for that super gracious response. I got you, and I sincerely mean it when I say thank you so much for adding value to the conversation. I love the intelligent discourse that can come from this debate when two people who are on opposing sides of this war can come together and just talk it over. From an Imperial to (I assume) a Stormcloak - mad respect, dude. If we meet on the battlefield, Talos guide the victor ⚔️

[@northstar4601]

While they may be imperial supporters it isn’t nice to treat them so poorly. It is natural that there are imperial supporters throughout the land occupied by the rebels. Skyrim was a loyal province for a long time.

[@RedfootAllAmericanAnthro]

Will say this and it may be due to me playing with mods (although I can't find the one that I would have had that changed the civil war??) Whenever I do a Legion/imperial run of Skyrim as any race but imperial, nord and I think Breton and red guard (I almost never play Breton or red guard so that's why I have to I think) generic imperial conversion (this is NPCs commenting when you talk to them or are near them) is almost always derogatory towards my character until after the stormcloaks fall, meanwhile unless I play a high elf (at which point it's the same as imperial where they start giving respectful comments after Legion/imperials is dealt with) for me stormcloaks about the time just after whiterun is secured I start get lines that are on par with being atleast respected/trusted. (By derogatory comments I mean it's statements such as "oh great a khajiit guess I have to tell the rest of the camp to watch their stuff" or "I'm going to need you to let me search for any skooma on you cat" which sometimes it's funny, but can be annoying when your getting khajiit/argonian lines when your play a wolf like race because of a beast race tag and it being drawn from beast race comments if you Don't have enough to draw from it seems lol)

[@catwaffles9960]

What's not really discussed in this debate is that the imperial troops are pretty much all local recruits from Skyrim. It's Nords vs. Nords.

[@Cybernaut76]

Yeah. There are no actual legionaries in Skyrim. They are deployed elsewhere.

[@capcap184]

Wrong you can find imperials in the game especially in solitude

[@Cybernaut76]

@@capcap184 Are you talking about actual legionaries or inhabitants of Skyrim recruited to serve under Tullius?

[@capcap184]

@@Cybernaut76 yes

[@capcap184]

@@Cybernaut76 actual legionaries

[@Neuviletteiudexofmemes]

The one time I played a Thalmor was actually one of the more fun playthroughs I’ve done. Namely, because from the start I had his redemption arc planned out from the beginning. He wasn’t one of those low ranking scrubs who think this is about transitory racial superiority, but rather someone who knows that the Thalmor’s true goal is the destruction of Mundus and it’s false ephemeral existence to return the Mer to their rightful forms as divine spirits. True immortality restored to his people and freeing the mortals of Tamerial from their eternal pointless struggle against the Daedra slowly corrupting and then eternally damning them. A Thalmor who was so indoctrinated he truly believed that he was helping the pointlessly struggling humans by saving them from, in his mind, inevitable permanent suffering at the hands of the Daedra. But then he slowly sees more and more of the mortals, as well as the weaknesses within his own people, and, after having born witness to Sovengard itself and the events of the Vigilant Mod, comes to understand that Mortalkind is worth protecting, and casts aside his place in the Thalmor Ranks with the full intention of standing against them. Super fun time.

[@medicolkie3606]

awesome rp bro

[@eternalsummer8409]

What I find interesting in Skyrim is the surprising lack of war profitiers, everyone is usally moaning about the war but no one seems to be doing the usal thing by selling gear to both sides, If anything this just makes the both sides being thalmor puppets theory more possible to me

[@alexandertheprotogen6180]

As a writer I never liked the idea of separating wars into good vs bad sometimes it’s all just shades of gray

[@jonathandefoy6376]

I mean sure, but come on Hitler murdering three million jews is not good...

[@kibawhitefang7176]

And let the readers decide 😅Makes sense too hehe

[@totalygamingtemplar]

ye, they both have points, but uh, we can all agree whiterun are the good guys and we need to make the choices that benifit them the most

[@kibawhitefang7176]

@@totalygamingtemplar Question: how in the end do we defeat the Thalmor?

[@brawlgasm56]

The skyrim Civil War is entirely grey. Outlawing talks worship was unacceptable, but rebelling and fighting the empire because of it was also just strategically stupid. It's a war of pragmatists and idealists, strategy and tact over honor and tradition

[@samueldesmondtuah1421]

The Hero of Kvatch and Champion of Cyrodiil would have been disappointed to see the Empire of today

[@Lavery760]

As the deadric prince of madness he probably really enjoys what he's seeing I'd think.

[@samueldesmondtuah1421]

Fair 😆@@Lavery760

[@stump4522]

The Empire in Skyrim isnt the same one as Oblivion. This Empire is an usurper that won the Cyrodiil Civil War.

[@Sgt_ioiwsl]

@@stump4522with the return of the Dragonborn it may become the old empire once more

[@shawnthompson2303]

And, you know…. *TALOS.*

[@Arwing65]

Great video. I play as a female khajiit treasure hunter and she doesn't choose a side. She's just out there looking for unique weapons and armors, using her dragonborn powers to achieve those goals. She has seen the dossier on Ulfric and finds that to be very interesting information and is always prepared to pack up shop and move on to other regions if things get a bit too heated.

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

Female Khajiit is the best choice.

[@imisstheoldyoutube9845]

I side with the stormcloaks for several reasons; one the empire tried to cut my head off without reason or a trial Two the war is over a principal. The land belongs to the natives and should be allowed to govern themselves as well as worship who they please.

[@dubiousbrick4483]

My ancestors are smiling on me imperial, can you say the same!?!?

[@JohnnyNatrium]

Won't be anything left of your name or your beliefs if you weaken your own resistance against the real enemy by fighting against the ones who were begrudgingly forced to sign a treaty none of us liked, but needed to agree to in order to buy time, to have a chance at building up a stronger alliance between Skyrim and Cyrodiil, and the rest of Tamriel, which is the only chance anyone on the continent has at not being ultimately swiftly crushed by the Thalmor. Can you look at the big picture, Nord? If so then pray in secret... for now.

[@dubiousbrick4483]

@@JohnnyNatrium tldr milkdrinker

[@Original-Alastor]

@@JohnnyNatriumHonestly, I think the Empire will win and no one is gonna remember the Stormcloaks in history much 💀

[@noconsequence4486]

​​@@Original-Alastor "Hey remember those dumbasses that struggled against one legion of the Empire while the rest if its forces were trying to prep up for a sequel war against the real enemy?"

[@Original-Alastor]

@@noconsequence4486 Exactly 😭✋

[@300SonsofOdin]

I find it a little bit shallow that you as the Dragonborn can't just delete the Thalmor from Skyrim. Like kill most of their agents and capture most of their strongholds in Skyrim. I bet this would bring Ulfric and Tulius to the table and maybe even truce between the two could be achived. Imagine: the Empire gains one hell of a commander and a respctable fighting force to kick in some altmeri teeth.

[@chadmonty9967]

I don’t think that would have as big of an impact tho. The Thalmor aren’t just relegated to Skyrim most of their dealings there are by proxy or like you mentioned with agents. Killing all the Thalmor in Skyrim wouldn’t really weaken them enough to get the Empire to change their mind about choosing that moment to launch an offensive.

[@300SonsofOdin]

Well, like evry fighting force or military structure, the Thalmore need officers and comanders to uphold the chain of comand. If we as the Dragonborn eliminate a certain number of them, soldiers and offircers alike, we would plunge the Thalmor in Skyrim into chaos. Since we know the geopolitical situation of the Empire (that is in a state of cold war with the Dominion) we would significantly weaken the Dominions influence in Skyrim, and therefor give the Empire time to either formulate a counter offensive (be it in the form of military might or through the Oculatus in form of a cold war scenario). This could also be politically a good point since the Empire can say: Well, this guy/girl does not work for us. We have nothing to do with them! All the while it could be reason enough for the Stormcloaks to lay their weapons aside and return to the fold of the Empire, since the Empire does not forbid Thalos worship per se, but the entire thing is enforced through the Thalmor even in Skyrim. If Tulius is smart enough (which I strongly belive he is), he would seek out Ulfric and propose either a truce or an allianze, given the state of the Thalmor in Skyrim at that point. This would strengthen the Empire and significantly weaken the Dominions hold in Skyrim, potentialy leading to a massive L for the Dominion.

[@chadmonty9967]

@@300SonsofOdin I mean I agree with most of this but I think the issue is I don’t think Tulius can make major deals like that. 1 because he’s still under orders from his superiors and 2 because if he did he’d be putting the peace at risk if that info ever got out. Also you need to consider whether Ulfric wants to make that deal. To him the Imperial rulers are just puppets of the dominion so I find it unlikely he would reach out for that type of peace deal or if he’d even trust their word because Tulius can easily be replaced by someone who wouldn’t be as friendly. I think a deal would just end up the Imperial government going “hell no” and Ulfric probably wouldn’t even want to make the deal in the first place.

[@300SonsofOdin]

@@chadmonty9967 Well, it really depends on how you spin it. We know that Ulfric is actually ready to talk, as seen when the Dragonborn brings him and Tullius to the table to negotiate a truce. He only has a problem with the Thalmor, as evident when he sees Elenven on the table. This leads me to belive, that Tullius is also ready to talk. His mission, after all, is to bring Skyrim back into the fold of the Empire. And I also don't really think that Tullius has many higher ups, he is a general, after all. And generals tend to be quite high in the food chain. I also don't belive the Empire has general laying around and be like: You know what? Tullius is shit, lets send general Aquilonius the third up there. And while we are at it, let's just order the entire legion stationed in Skyrim to leave as well. This would boad bad for the Empire as a whole, leaving Skyrim undefendet and ready to split from the empire the second there is a chance. So, by eradicating the Thalmor and disrupting their chain of comand the Dragonborn, I would wager the chances of these two factions being at peace is quite good. Another thing the empire could do after the Thalmor are deleted from Skyrim, would be to officially denounce Skyrim as an imperial profince, giving it it's indipendance, while secretly upholding an alliance with them and asking them to come to fight the Thalmor in case of a breakout of war. This scenario, would be the most likely, as seen by the Hammerfell example, where the emperor denounced it, while leaving quite a good chunk of his legions there to fight the dominion. Only they where "discharged" from the legion. As the empire retreated from Hammerfell, they simply happen to forgett a functioning army and supplies there. I mean, it happens to the best, right?

[@chadmonty9967]

@@300SonsofOdin yeah I think I just disagree specifically about Tulius. He might be a general but there’s the emperor, Imperial council and other influential people who probably have sway. So Tulius can’t just do whatever especially with a whole province. Also I don’t see why they wouldn’t have extra generals hanging around. Most countries especially large ones have lots of generals and will sometimes replace them when they aren’t doing well or disobey orders. An example being MacAurther being replaced by Ridgeay in the Korean War when MacAurther was talking shit about Truman and giving some unwanted war advice. Finally I didn’t know about the Imperials intentionally leaving troops in Hammerfell and having a secret deal. I thought those actions were independent of Imperial command?

[@elden_lord22]

I actually once role played a thalmor who goes through the main quest and setting up some "accounts" in solitude for the thalmor but after he found the dossier and then met and spoke to Esbern he then realized that everything he believed was flawed and so turned against the thalmor he realized thoe that tamriel would need to buy time to stand against summerset he was a key agent and knew much about their organization and so he joins the imperial legion tended to his capabilities as dragonborn turning that power against them once more preparing to make his own stand and remove those flaws he now sees

[@Paradox-es3bl]

The Stormcloaks are the ones who would actually fight the Thalmor, though, dude.

[@HuhJuhWuh]

As a proud telvanni sorcerer and mycologist, i can as a matter of fact confirm that the barbaric stormcloaks, the arrogant aldmeri and the mongrel dogs of the empire are all villans.

[@totalygamingtemplar]

as a mercenary running from house redoren and got captured by the empire in skyrim, i can relate. tho i have taking a liking to a girl from whiterun who helps me on my travels(yes i downloaded a mod to make lydia have voicelines)

[@thalmor_justiciar]

"Arrogant aldmeri"? Do you want me to report this to Elenwin?

[@HuhJuhWuh]

@@thalmor_justiciar im a god! How can you report a god!? What a grand and intoxicating innocence.

[@sunflower_ace]

I was legitimately sad when I learned it wasn't Lucia 😢

[@ItsChevnotJeff]

As the owner of a blue furred farm tool, I can relate, neither me nor my property appreciate these three menaces, especially the n'wah Ulfric stormcloak

[@lt_hammerfist5532]

One thing you didn’t mention in the difference between the two victories, is if the stormcloaks win, the Thalmor agents are hunted down and executed, starting with ondolomar in Markarth as you can find his remains in the crypt of Markarth after the siege. But if the empire wins the Thalmor keep their presence in Skyrim, they don’t loosen their grip as you suggest, they still capture people to torture and kill.

[@Sage_Popo]

The Dragonborn invites the empire and stormcloak forces to discuss a temporary truce to trap a dragon in whiterun, the thalmor are present and continue hindering a conclusive truce. The dragonborn realizes that there will be no truce and much less an end to the war with the thalmor around. In his name as dragonborn he denounces the thalmor as instigators and accuses them for enslaving the empire and refusing to recognize Talos as a divine. Because of this the empire leaves the negotiation table at the request of the thalmor, with no choice the dragonborn pleas with the stormcloaks to hold off on any attacks against whiterun in hopes that it will be enough to convince Balgruuf to go forward with the plan, but Ulfric refuses noting the inclination Balgruuf has to join the empire. The dragonborn pulls an uno reverse card and challenges ulfric to a duel like he did before with the previous high king, a battle of words spoken in the language of dragons. The dragonborn defeats Ulfric, and assumes command of the stormcloak rebellion with little opposition, hardcore nords compose the rebellion and little oppose their dragonborn as leader as he promises to end the war. Balgruuf knowing the dragonborn well trusts him and allows the trapping of the dragon with the dragonborn's promise to leave whiterun out of the war. The hero defeats alduin, and with the newfound respect from the dragons and Paarthunax, the blades whom the dragon dared to attack Paarthunax under penalty of death, and the now under his command stormcloak rebellion the dragonborn declares himself the next emperor as he carries dragon blood within him like the emperors of old. He flies atop Odahviing along with other dragons who had chosen to follow him towards solitude, the blades storm the thalmor embassy giving them satisfaction in revenge, even previous blades members who were in hiding joined the cause, as the stormcloak forces high in spirits for being led by the hero who rid them of Alduin, stood by in case the empire refused the demands the dragonborn was about to make. The dragonborn lands in the courtyard outside the Imperial headquarters demanding the acceptance of his claim, Tulius refuses and is devoured by Odahviing, at the site of many dragons no imperial soldiers make a move, Tulius's legate accepts the demands and the thalmor declare war on the once again unified empire, with the strength of dragons now as well opposing them. Elder Scrolls 6 is set.

[@Sage_Popo]

I see this as the ideal ending, by the endgame you're pretty much a demigod and carry the blood of a dragon which is one of the main things that defined the septim line of kings and was the reason they could wear the Amulet of kings. Both tulius and ulfric are arrogant and should be killed off to solidify the dragonborn as emperor. The blades were not just dragon slayers they were the personal guard of the previous kings and accepting the claim would force them to obey the dragonborn to not kill Paarthunax, if the dragonborn can earn the loyalty of Odahviing he can earn the same of other dragons which would be awesome in the dragonborn quest to see armies of dragons duking it out for their masters. The stormcloaks are hardcore about their Nordic traditions and would no doubt follow one of the biggest influences in their culture at the time. The thalmor clearly have a military presence in skyrim and wiping them could be both a great end to the game and a great start to the story of the next one.

[@RobT192]

This would actually make great lore in the Elder Scrolls universe, well put together and fits in without breaking the main story. This should be the story of the Dragonborn in the 4th era

[@Zorrin1995]

This would be amazing 👍🏻

[@KopperNeoman]

You had me until the killing Tullius part. My boy Tullius would absolutely be down for this.

[@Sage_Popo]

@KopperNeoman maybe, the only reason I said it was because he doesn't really understand nord traditions which is made obvious in the game and he appears to be a hardcore loyalist that wouldn't support basically a coup

[@Chessi_flowarts]

Perfect timing as I am a new player thank you for making this

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey, that’s amazing! I love seeing new people get into the things I’ve been passionate about for so long. I’m jealous of you - the joys of experiencing this world for the first time are absolutely incredible and I wish you all the best in your journey in Skyrim, Tamriel as a whole and beyond. Welcome to one of the best RPG worlds in gaming!

[@totalygamingtemplar]

xbox or pc? you should get some good lore friendly mods that make the vanilla experience so much better, i would love to experience skyrim for the first time with mods

[@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271]

Am jelly of u😢

[@frederikferguson2571]

Another point about the empire is that Tullius himself state that they may very well start a new war with Thalmor. The empire simply is lickng there wounds and buying themselves time As for the the Thalmor there biggest interests is for the war to keep going (Delphine for all her faults is one of few people who actually understands this as she points it out after you have battled the dragon at Kynnesgrove.) So no matter which side you choose you will have made (albeit a minor ) struck to the Thalmor

[@McHobotheBobo]

The mer may live long lives, but men reproduce more quickly and a productive peace in the Empire should mean future victory

[@frederikferguson2571]

@@McHobotheBobo sp true it the empire may would surely heal quicker of they stopped fighting within their own borders. Weather it actually takes longer for elves to reproduce than it does for humans. Well I have no idea if that's true or not dl the best so the best I can do is take your word for it All this actually makes me wonder if they could end the war by simply explain the things to Ulfric. Thou then again that man is one of of the most stubborn person in the whole game so I obviously doubt it

[@McHobotheBobo]

@@frederikferguson2571 I'm fairly confident they can have the same number of children but it's more spread out over the first ~200 years of mer life. The Thalmor are particularly brutal eugenicists though and their infant mortality is much higher than normal because of it. I suppose it depends on if someone can wield Adamantia or Whote-Gold tower against the power of the Crystal Tower

[@Lonkshi21]

Delphine is trash

[@totalygamingtemplar]

i have to protect whiterun i love those people

[@Jacerio]

It's important to note that skyrim would almost definitely nor fight the thalmor alone if they beat the empire, they would most certainly ally the red guards and maybe even black marsh

[@riceplatter8102]

"Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more, can they not see that his anger floats on a sea of tears?"

[@Iceaxehikes]

One thing is certain; All three words of Storm Call Shout are spoken in the courtyard of the Thalmor Embassy on every playthrough. Love me some barbequed Thalmor.

[@alexcedeno966]

I want this guy a general in my army👏

[@toxic_shr00m]

I was playing an Argonian rogue, so I was originally going to side with the Stormcloaks to cause some chaos. I went to Winterhold and was called a lizard and a dog, so I left and joined the Empire.

[@ValensBellator]

One thing not mentioned here is the Thalmor were reeling a bit too after their loss at the imperial capital and years of war and defeat against the red guards. The empire still posed the biggest obstacle going forward, and so their goal was to continue to weaken it from within. For that reason I’d say only the empire has a real chance of protecting Skyrim. If that wasn’t the case, the Thalmor wouldn’t be covertly supporting the stormcloaks.

[@TheZombifiedGuy]

While I'm still not sure exactly where I fall on the Stormcloak vs Empire debate, I 100% agree with and endorse your point about taking characters you've made for one game or setting and trying them out in others. I've done the same thing, though probably on a smaller scale, with a number of games, and it's not just fun, it's also a good creative prompt. It helps prompt deeper thought about the character and how they might react or develop differently depending on the specifics of a setting or even one particular event. It's good advice.

[@sethhoward9161]

This was an absolutely incredible video. I recently got into elder scrolls by starting in Skyrim and the lore has absolutely fascinated me, but watching this gave me a lot better insight on what’s going on and has developed an even higher interest in the lore of Skyrim so thank you!! 🙏

[@10pointsofslashing]

@sethhoward9161 Dude, thank you so much! I really appreciate that - part of the overall goal of this channel is to inspire people to dive deeper into these games, so it makes me feel really good to hear that we accomplished that for you. And welcome to the party, pal! I'm envious of you, I've always said I wish I could wipe my memory of all things The Elder Scrolls and experience it again for the first time. I hope you enjoy the adventure even half as much as I have. It's such an incredible journey. There's absolutely a very stark difference in gameplay, but if you're interested in the world itself, definitely pick up The Elder Scrolls: Online. You can play it completely solo if that's your preference, and its a blast as far as diving into the world. -SJ

[@MrYEETman9820]

I remember as a kid, loving Star Wars and being greatly inspired by it, which made me always hate the Empire and side with the Stormcloaks. Growing up for me was finally realizing the Thalmor were the real enemy lmao

[@infinitedeath1384]

Yeah the Empire was pretty much forced to be enemies with Skyrim. They were too weak to fight off the thalmor, and they are dishonorable. They captured the dragonborn who happened to be in the vicinity of ulfric, and was made guilty by association, even though we weren't part of the stormclaoks at the time. Pretty much we were nearly executed just for trying to cross the border, which I believe in real world terms would be called "cruel and unusual punishment." I never liked the imperials from the beginning, and it had nothing to do with star wars, just from how they treated the dragonborn at the beginning of the game. They're nothing compared to the thalmor though, their villainy is up there with the Roman Empire. If you've looked into any of their history, you'd know that nearly all of their emperors were cruel and vicious, cared nothing for their own people and as a result, most of the emperor's the Roman Empire had have been assassinated or killed by their own guards. From what I saw in the thalmor embassy, where a man was locked up in their basement, they clearly aren't against torture.

[@carbonmonoxide5052]

The Empire has had 26 years to do something, but they have cowered to the Thalmor. Most of their (human) officers below the rank of General would have been trained in a postwar period, and basically all of their enlisted personnel. On top of this, Cyrodiil is too easy to conquer to make a good seat of the Empire during times of war. The Imperial Isle is easy to defend, but the rest of it is weak. Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell are all considerably easier for the natives to defend. The Illiac Bay would be a much more logical place for the seat of a human empire. Stormcloak Skyrim would result in High Rock being cut off from Cyrodiil, accessible only by ship from Anvil or over foreign land. This would, in time, confine the Empire entirely to Cyrodiil, and create a power vacuum across northwestern Tamriel. Such a vacuum could easily be filled by a new human alliance, a confederation of humans against the Aldmeri Dominion. Cyrodiil could join, but they would no longer be the seat of the the human empire, at the cost of the human empire no longer being able to control non-human lands (besides Orsinium and maybe Morrowind since they hate the Thalmor too).

[@10pointsofslashing]

Mad props to this comment - I just pointed out in another reply that it doesn’t even have to be the Empire that we know now that takes down the Thalmor and the Dominion. It can be some kind of new alliance in Tamriel that moves away from the current Empire’s way of doing things. This is exactly the type of thinking that I hope someone currently in a position of power within the Empire is tossing around. Either way, no matter who takes down the Dominion, I am of the opinion that it absolutely has to happen and there absolutely needs to be reform within the Empire - whether that is a complete dissolution and the beginning of some new kind of governance or just a shift in the way they work right now.

[@turbotortoise7336]

That's an interesting concept: to consider moving the Imperial capital to High Rock or Hammerfell. Would be interesting to come up in Elder Scrolls 6.

[@TheSniper721]

I personally believe that an Empire should work together of humans to take down the Dominion i however believe the current Empire is to weak and to complacent to act as nothing but puppet for the Dominion to how much time has past. I jsut do not belive the current Empire can or rathetr would take the night to them. Now, an independent Skyrim working with other states that broke off from the Empire could work together as a new Empire, a non Cyrodiilic centered Empire. Cyrodiil must learn it can not remain the heartland of humanity as the capital in order to bring the fight to the Dominion. I side with the Stormcloaks because i believe at best the Cyradlic Empire currently is Vichy France relationship at best, as it is one that would never liberate itself. The way forward is for the old Empire to fall and a new Empire to rise. @@10pointsofslashing

[@sulliedpat]

@@10pointsofslashingthe possibility of an international alliance is the determining reason I support the Stormcloaks. You probably know in-game Ulfric is seeking alliances (sent to High Rock). But on the other hand the Empire has burnt bridges with its former colonies. Hammerfell hates the Empire for abandoning them to the Thalmor after the Great War. Morrowind hates the Empire for abandoning them during the Oblivion Crisis (or there abouts) ultimately leading to the Argonian Invasion. At least half of Skyrim now hates the Empire following it violently asserting its entitlement to rule, with the other half of the population grudgingly accepting despite disagreement with certain new laws. I see the Stormcloaks as being a far more viable option for facilitating international cooperation.

[@filthycasual8187]

The Dominion would not allow Imperial shipping to take place, they'd immediately capitalize on the Empire being effectively split in two. Skyrim won't work with the Empire in a second war against the Dominion, neither will Hammerfell. And without the Empire, humanity's days in Tamriel are numbered. I'm personally not about a fantasy setting where elves are the only playable races, so... I'm pro-Empire.

[@90snetworkproductions79]

I used to think the Empire were the good guys, but lots of terrible things happened after the war. *The Thalmor knew the Nords would revolt about a ban on Talos worship, and it anyway, making it an, "empire problem."* *-Conveniently-timed disappearances of Nords who owned critically important farms/mines, courtesy of Thalmor Justiciars who NEVER stopped killing, abducting, and imprisoning Nords.* *-Maven Blackbriar exploited this, now even Riften's guards are criminals, and she's a slumlord.* *-Thalmor used abducted Nords to ransom wealthy families into ratting out Talos worshippers.* *-Said locations were then purchased by Thalmor-controlled foreigners, like that d!lldo Nazeem.* *-Now the Thalmor control most of Skyrim's money, evidenced by those at Elenwen's party.* *-The Empire enforce Thalmor laws on Skyrim's people, arresting and killing those who resist, in the name of, "peace." Only to preserve a dying Empire, that likely won't survive another war.* *- Elenwen was there when they were about to execute Ulfric, his troops, and The Dragonborn hero without a trial, which is a MAJOR war crime, (yes i know, a fair trial would've meant complete anarchy, and all of Skyrim would've went up in arms, it still wasn't right.)* *-In the dossier Elenwen herself requested Ulfric's torturer to place his cell outside her office...* *The Thalmor also admit to arming the Stormcloacks with weapons and armor, hence, "indirect aid." *The Thalmor want the war to go on as long as possible, maximizing casualties on both sides.* Can't root for that, even if the Stormcloaks also committed war crimes, its not as bad as the above listed. I also used to think Ulfric was a huge bigot, but in other games, the Dark/High Elves were next-level bigots. So in a world where everyone is a bigot, NO ONE IS.

[@wolves600]

Its stated in game that the Ban on talos was not enforced much provided it was not super blatant until the rebellion Also Ulfric literally also was involved int he markarth incident you know the thing that executed a ton of innocent people and banned their faith making him a hypocrite

[@Ackalan]

@@wolves600 Strange how the only thing that refences that massacre is an imperial propaganda book, and not a single living person anywhere in Skyrim. Yes, it was a bloody fight, but no one ever reference a massacre.

[@wolves600]

@@Ackalan you mean other than the literal forsworn you can talk to

[@Ackalan]

@@wolves600 Which ones claims there were a massacre?

[@wolves600]

@@Ackalan well one talks about them executing his innocent daughter Etc I never said their as a massacre just that they executed innocents

[@Merica1776o]

I used to side with the Empire because I believed in their rhetoric about “we’re the only thing keeping the Thalmor out”. But in actuality they’re facilitating Thalmor activities, meanwhile the stormcloaks will arrest or execute Thalmor. The Empire is also on its last legs with Cyrodill. Meanwhile the Stormcloaks could theoretically forge a temporary alliance with Hammerfell and Morrowind against the aldmeri dominion, but even Skyrim itself would be a nightmare to conquer alone. Especially when you consider that the stormcloaks have the greatest weapon of all: the endgame Dragon born with all his factions, dragons and the ability to bend the will of mortals. Which granted them a decisive victory against the Empire and is a major threat that the Thalmor were not anticipating. And if I was Ulfric, I certainly would not allow the Aldmeri dominion or Cyrodill any time to recover. But the wise move in my opinion would be launching a counteroffensive with the Dovahkiin spearheading the attack. The Aldmeri dominion would get absolutely annihilated with dragons, stormcloaks and hammerfell warriors behind him. Perhaps they could enlist imperial citizens for their new Empire, while Ulfric is cast aside by the Dovahkiin.

[@i20coyote85]

I go stormcloak pretty.much everytime, if hammerfell can beat the dominion so can skyrim, the empire is dying and not the empire of the septims, let it finally pass and the rest of the lands of skyrim become independent and deal with those damned golden knife ears

[@somecatyoudontknow6471]

Hey, I'm an American. I heard "Freedom" and my ears perked up. Thats why I went with the storm cloaks.

[@SuperLumianaire]

Mother fucka spitten facts!

[@Hubilicious90]

Very fitting then to choose the segregationistic, racist nationalists.

[@jamesstrickland517]

I found this great as one of my major campaigns as the Dragonborn is my total decimation of the Thalmor fort next to the vampire fortress Volkihar as well as the complete overrun of the Thalmor Embassy.

[@MrHildebrand]

Man I really hate when that vague dossier on Ulfric is a sticking point in an argument. Is he an asset? Yes. Does that mean he is a willing and a knowing asset? No. The Thalmor will try direct contact with Ulfric in a worst case scenario doesn't necessarily mean they have before or have easy access to him. If anything, as an assumption, they would send a delegate/spy who isn't a High Elf and use Ulfric without him knowing it's the Thalmor. All of that controversy aside, let me leave you with a harsh perspective in favor of the Stormcloaks. Now put yourself in their shoes and think about what the Thalmor are "Allowed" to do. Your official reigning government is allowing a foreign power, to kidnap, kill, and torture your countrymen, neighbors, friends, family. Not just allowing, but openly allowing it and you're told to deal with it or be punished by the law. The law that's supposed to be protecting its citizens. There is no reality where something like that would every fly with me. Greater good or not I would never expect anyone to tolerate it, let alone for 30 years. All the talk of racism, war crimes and whatever else. Those are all problems to be dealt with after the immediate threat has been taken care of.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Is there another video or something out there where somebody hones in on the whole “asset” thing? A lot of people are laser focusing on that and I don’t see the confusion around it or how people are misinterpreting my message there - I directly say that it’s unknown how deep his affiliation (whatever that may be) with the Thalmor goes, and I definitely didn’t say (nor do I believe whatsoever) that he is knowing or willing. It would be ridiculous to assume that unless you go the route of, “he hates the Empire so much that he’s willing to do whatever it takes, including supporting the Thalmor” but that’s straight up, absolute hogwash. All Ulfric cares about is Skyrim and her people. I’m not sure why the assumption is being made that I think Ulfric is directly helping the Thalmor. The possibility is definitely there - but I really don’t think that’s the case. But an asset is an asset, man. For whatever reason the Thalmor see Ulfric as useful to them in some capacity - probably because he’s destabilized an entire province. One of the provinces that would prove the most challenging to fight and conquer in future conflict. But as I said in the video, “…remains a possibility” definitely implies that they have before. Especially since they mention he’s “proven uncooperative” about it in the past or whatever. From the sounds of it, they have contacted him directly and it went pretty south - which makes complete sense given who the man is. The crazy thing about this - and the reason I absolutely love discussing this conflict with people - is that I agree with absolutely everything you’re saying. Truly. And at the end of the day, in black and white, I’m still siding with the Empire. Factoring the grey in, I’ll absolutely go Stormcloak if there’s evidence that Ulfric is planning on getting multiple provinces together to hit the Dominion in a way that is smart and isn’t just another conventional war as history has proven that won’t work against them. I’ll jump on anybody’s ship that says they’re going to hit the Thalmor. But until that day, my interest is in peace and not giving the Thalmor an excuse to steamroll the world again. That is the only reason I side with the Empire - and even then, in a roleplay situation, that character (upon winning the war) is immediately lobbying the Empire in secret to do something about the Thalmor because as you said - it’s been 30 years, man. It’s time to make it stop. Everybody is right and wrong at the same time. Everybody’s the good guy and we’re all at eachother’s throats about it. I love it and it’s beautiful storytelling. Thanks for the well worded comment, dude!

[@pwn3ronetwothree]

@@10pointsofslashing One of the most in-depth videos on the topic is actually part of PatricianTV's skyrim retrospective. It's 20 hours long, but the relevant part is just the last hour or so of Part 1 of that video. He goes into a lot of the misconceptions and misinformation about the Civil War, as well as bringing up some interesting cut content.

[@MrHildebrand]

@10pointsofslashing Just some food for thought, the Thalmor are not as powerful as they present themselves to be. They lost a huge portion of their army at the battle of the red ring. By portion, I pretty much mean the majority. Then they lose even more people trying to hold Hammerfell. Also, if you really want to dig into lore, High-elves can not reproduce nearly as fast as the races of man. Rebuilding their army would be an incredibly slow process, but that's a different discussion. I'd argue the empire was in a position during the war to push into Summerset and finish it, albeit at a cost too high worth paying. So, to just give your enemy everything when you were in the position of power is ludacris. The Thalmor are clearly using divide and conquer tactics. To me, they just don't have the raw manpower to fully enforce their will. Signing the white gold concordant might have saved them more than it did the Empire. As you also pointed out, it would seem the Thalmors' primary goals are the towers, not dismantling the Empire. Maybe keeping the peace is a more viable option at the moment, but only because the Thalmor were given 30 years to lick their wounds, but too many people died to just let the Thalmor get everything they wanted.

[@alaskamark4562]

@@10pointsofslashing The "direct contact remains a possibility under extreme circumstances" thing probably refers to like how Elenwen can get to be a part of the peace council during the Season Unending quest. While attending she's making "direct contact" with Ulfric and the negotiations are "extreme circumstances" but it's not like he's taking orders from her, quite the opposite in fact. I see a lot of people online take issue with how Ulfric is outraged to see Elenwen at the start of the negotiations, but if you read the Dossier then you know that Ulfric was "interrogated" by Elenwen during the war and she's the one who tricked him into thinking he got the capital captured. Imagine you're a leader going into one of the most important meetings of your whole life, where you could potentially decide the fate of your entire nation, and then suddenly you're put face-to-face with the person who tortured and psychologically manipulated you, and they're demanding to be a part of the meeting. I'd be pretty pissed too. I think it's really sad, I wouldn't want to be reliving those horrible memories during a critically important negotiation either.

[@martincostasvigliecca8984]

Nah dude, the empire are the Thalmor bitches. And they are just enforcing the Thalmor rules for them. So fuk the empire! @@10pointsofslashing

[@Theboogie97]

I always end up siding with the ulfric for the simple fact that I’m getting ready to be killed by the empire for no reason other than wrong place wrong time

[@jerry12314]

I think Windhelm has the most establishment run and owned by Elves in all of Skyrim. If Ulfric Stormcloak is what some people accuse him to be I think all these shops and farms would have closed down after two decades of him in power and replaced with Nords only. Several of these establishments are even owned by Altmer/High Elf.

[@cryolitegem]

The Thalmor having the foresight and planning of Houseki no Kuni’s Aechmea is honestly chilling in how dreadful it is

[@ryanhillbom792]

Something I actually love about this questline is the very fact that it has the moral gray that cones with war that the people who fight in war are heroes fighting for their cause, it's stuff like this that makes me love a show like star war's the clone war's because noone is the bad guy they are just unknowing puppets of the sith

[@totalygamingtemplar]

saving whiterun is not gray for me but i see your point

[@infebris]

@@totalygamingtemplarfr i hate anyone who plays stormcloak purely for the fact that they destroy whiterun and imprison jarl balgruuf

[@Cybernaut76]

You are not absolutely correct. I mean if I remember correct, Tullius at one point of the game whispers to the dragonborns ear something implying the Empire is not as loyal to Thalmor or The White Gold Concordat as it seems on the surface. Like General Tullius knew something about possibly up and coming second round of The Great War an ordinary Imperial grunt does not. I was left with the impression that at least General Tullius, perhaps even Emperor Titus Mede, is looking for an opportunity to strike a dagger in Thalmors back. (If they are wise, they will refrain from doing so while Skyrim Civil War is still ongoing).

[@infebris]

they are, it is not implied it is literally stated in the game that they will strike against the thalmor so you are correct

[@JimGreen569]

Yep. Tullius also blatantly says that most imperial forces are on the border with the dominion, which is why they seem stretched thin in Skyrim.

[@Keira_Blackstone]

if you do the empire storyline, they specifically state they're trying to end the rebellion as quickly as possible in order to prepare their forces to overthrow the Thalmor. they just need Skyrim on their side in order to do that.

[@Natethesax]

Oh so a little religious oppression is ok we long as it's justified by "we were gonna". No. And this video wrong in my opinion

[@emirlerdtm6774]

Its fine if in the end Thalmor scum gets killed. ​@@Natethesax

[@Theonlyjtd341]

@@Natethesaxhave fun when the empire falls and the thalmor continues their actions against Skyrim. Lord knows no one will come to help Skyrim that way. Consider long term consequences

[@Extella_Nights]

Hey, cool, I have a rotating cast characters, too😸 When I got BG3 I recreated my main Skyrim character. Story is that he was trapped in Apocrypha and used the infinite wealth of knowledge to find a way to escape, thus landing him in the Forgotten Realms. The latest addition is a Sword Dancer of Eilistraee

[@johnprager662]

If I were a Nord, I saw Thalmor agents in major cities hanging out with pro-Imperial Jarls, and I heard about them kidnapping and murdering people for worshiping Talos with impunity, I would be very skeptical of the Empire's ability to stand up for the Thalmor. Giving your sworn enemy who you claim you are the best equipped to fight unfettered access to murder your own subjects would make me hate you and join up with the first guy who dedicates himself to driving you out. ESPECIALLY if I was a veteran who lost countless friends fighting the Thalmor. I like to say that I join with the Stormcloaks almost every playthrough because they didn't try to cut my head off for no reason, but the real reason is the continued Imperial cooperation with Thalmor agents that makes the decision easy for me. Tullius knows about the Thalmor torture dungeon and seems fine with maintaining it. How many Imperial agents are doing the same in Alinor? If I were a Nord, I would see that as an enormous betrayal from the faction that treats it as a given that they'll be able to defeat the enemy. I don't have to think Ulfric is perfect to follow him, just that his cause is righteous. In terms of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks being racist (especially towards the Dunmer), I wonder how many people who make this argument played Morrowind. I don't get insulted by every guard in Skyrim for being an outlander, and I don't see any Nord leaders sanctioning the slavery of other races. I also don't get a huge disposition penalty with elves for being an Argonian like I do in Oblivion. Even in Skyrim itself, the Thalmor say to my face that they are superior to the races of men. For the standards of Elder Scrolls -- both previous games and lore -- the racism of the Nords is pretty tame.

[@dutchpatriot17]

If I were a Nord and knew that the Justiciars only started to show up after Ulfric made the Empire break treaty terms at Markarth, I would hold Ulfric responsible. Your ''counter'' to the racism in Windhelm is not a counter, but a fallacy. ''Oh the racism of Ulfric is okay, because look at these different Dunmer from another part in Morrowind, and look at the Thalmor''. It isn't a counter argument.

[@durandol]

You know, seeing as how we are.. you know, the *DRAGONBORN*, shouldn't we be the ones on the throne? Being of the dragon blood, we would have the most legitimate claim to it?

[@crstph]

thrones aren’t just handed to people; if you want to be on the throne, you need to have the claim, power, and desire to take it. the real reason blood claims/“divine right of kings” usually hold water is bc inherited power usually means the blood relative of the last ruler is the person with the most power to hold onto it. does the dragonborn have combat power, and maybe a claim? sure. everything else…

[@rcbecker1]

If you follow the Alessian Rules which the empire developed from states that the Emperor has to carry the Dragon Blood which ties to the amulet protecting Tameil from Oblivion. This is why the current Emperor is seen as Illegitimate Emperor by many. The Grey beards recognize you as the new dragon of the north which is the title moving you in that direction. But Bethesda doesn't want a game where you fight the wars and then move to become the next Emperor with the support of the citizens who still want the old ways. They want it about the Civil War and the Thalmor. Not about you being the reincarnation of Talos or any other depending on you standing on that issue. Where I was disappointed is the Nord's and their people don't see what's right in front of them. Think about it you kill a dragon and save the town and the people just walk away with no knowledge of what just happened then five minutes later its back to who are you and why should I care.

[@Mammothsaber-4457]

I believe their is a mod where your character can become high king

[@christatum3045]

Literally just walk to the castles, challenge them to honorable duel and shout them to death one by one until they bend the knee. And then go and light the dragon fires

[@alaskamark4562]

I don't think the "Ulfric is racist" argument holds water. You can play as any species and still join the Stormcloaks, joining as a non-Nord might raise an eyebrow from Galmar but that's about it. As for the Dunmer having to live in the Grey Quarter and Argonians being kept outside of Windhelm, we have to remember that these two peoples fought a very bloody race war against each other. The Dunmer are notorious for enslaving the Argonians (and Men BTW) and the Argonians committed mass murder against even innocent Dunmer and are the reason they're refugees in Skyrim in the first place. I can understand why the Nords wouldn't want to deal with foreigners crap when they have their own problems.

[@juanfisi]

Finally someone said it! Dunmer enslaving other races is never talked about!

[@datboi9648]

It is a game at the end of the day. Could you imagine a quest being blocked to you for your race.

[@juanfisi]

@@datboi9648 That would be awesome, you would have to create different characters for different quests, would be really immersive and would give players more insentive to experiment with other races.

[@deantrail6789]

​@@datboi9648 That actually sounds cool.

[@damianmorningstar3150]

@@datboi9648yup there are games that do it

[@Draconatus24]

I would honestly love it if they released a title where we can fight against the dominion.

[@oliearts8074]

Fingers crossed that when elder scrolls 6 is finally released, that’s a big part of the plot

[@LazyKudla]

That's the only video that made me clear what choice I want to make. Great material!

[@eugenie4075]

Two things, maybe a few more: 1. Tullius speaks about attacking the Thalmor after the war is finished, so those plans are also to be taken into account for the decision, not just as a hypothetical 2. The Nords are doing what the Redguards did, albeit a more violent separation from the empire, but still. If the Imperials could let go of Hammerfell, why now put up a fight against the Nords when they should be dedicating resources to push back the Thalmor? 3. I’ve always sided with stormcloaks, and always will. The forceful oppression of Skyrim will not go unpunished. The Thalmor are hunting Talos worshippers and slaughtering them like pigs, while the Empire says “eh just let it happen, we’ll do something about it later.” 4. Talos worship and Dovahkiin go hand in hand. Shor, Talos, Shezar, and Shezarines. Long story short, Shor is Shezar is Talos is you, all beings called Shezarines. You really gonna side with the people killing your fanbase? Not cool 5. The Thalmor want the war to continue because they can do their shady stuff in private with all of their enemies’ resources being focused on a war that hardly involves them. They know once the war is over, either way, they’ll be center stage again. 6. I’ve heard so many of my friends talk about the Ulfric interrogation in their arguments. I haven’t been up on the lore in half a decade but last I recall, the beliefs they instilled were what caused this war to explode, and they wanted it to happen to further weaken the Empire for more devious plans to come to fruition. Either way, it’s exactly what happens. Less Nords or less Imperials, it’s a win win, and on top of that they get a time cushion to concoct and enact more of their strategy for world domination. I’d assume the further contact bit is to give him strategic intel in case the empire is close to winning, just to perpetuate the war. They already can drop off intel on Tullius’s desk without raising suspicion so there’s no need for it to be in writing in the game. 7. I’ve seen other comments here but I’ll include it anyway; Ulfric is not the big mean racist you may think he is. He gave a section of his city to Dunmer refugees, the Argonians aren’t allowed in because they made the Refugees, and likely would create a conflict in his city. Any race (idk if altmer can lmao never played as one) can join his side and buy the house in Windhelm. Several elves have homes outside the Grey Quarter. He’d stop that process obviously if he truly was. He commends the player if they’re not a Nord for joining his side and fighting for the liberation of Skyrim, even though you’re not originally from Skyrim. I always play Khajiit, so I’ve heard it a million times. Everything I’ve witnessed Ulfric do has a cause. Distrust of altmer comes from the dominion. Argonian ban comes from Dunmer citizens’ protection. He constantly speaks about “Skyrim and her people” -very inclusive for a racist don’t ya think? Other Nords say “Skyrim is for the Nords” mid fight, which even then doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a racial attack, more of a get-out-of-my-home-empire kind of jab. I think that’s everything but that’s why I side with the Stormcloaks, I could never be friendly-even remotely- with the Thalmor

[@infebris]

the empire isn't saying "we'll deal with it later" for no reason. you really thinka ragtag group of rebels stands a chance against the full force of the empire let alone the thalmor? the empire is playing the long game while the thalmor get comfortable, in the end the stormcloaks and the empire will have to team up at some point to defeat the thalmor.

[@thomasmasson7905]

​​@@infebrisskyrim is depicted in the lore as one of the most powerful provinces in tamriel. We must differenciate in-game size and in-lore size. Skyrim is ,lorewize, huge in territory and demography and has some of the most fearsome warrior on the continent. The empire priginate from tiber septim (which is a nord) and the nords of skyrim going on a rampage and conquering more than half of the continent. Altough I have to admit that it was many eras ago, it is important to remember that the only one describing nord warior as a "ragtag bunch of rebels" are the imperials during the civil war. With hammerfell out of the way, a unified skyrim do stand a chance aganst the full might of the empire Fun gimmic (completely out of lore) if you put 20 nord warrior against 20 imperial or 20 thalmor justiciar (15 soldier + 5 mages) in game via mod of cpnsole command, nord will win most of the time

[@joemcdermott1213]

@@infebris A ragtag group? That's apparently also what the Empire thought of Hammerfell?

[@erroneouse1929]

⁠@@infebrishammerfell technically are rebels against the empire, so yeah

[@Trelitty11]

To be honest they’re both “good “ guys . The Thalmor are the enemy , and only indirectly helping the Stormcloaks in order too weaken EVERYONE . The Thalmor have manipulated the factions against each other so well only a few in Skyrim are aware of the broader picture . I hope in the next scrolls we find out the factions joined up against the Thalmor

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

Ya, people think the Thalmor are just zealots who enforce religion, the Thalmor are spies and saboteurs with completely insane goals, they are manipulating the Empire, the Stormcloaks, they manipulated the Khajiit, they're even manipulating the Aldmeri Dominion in order to reach their end goal. The Dominion isn't even the enemy, the Thalmor are, they're like an even more insane and capable Mythic Dawn.

[@Grombrindal]

You aren't going to enjoy Warhammer if fantasy racism upsets you this much

[@jasonboehringer4583]

Race wars!

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

To know that all other races and cultures are inferior to the Empire is not racism, it's called being correct.

[@Paulo51297]

@@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch you fink dat 'umies are superior? Da orkz ar da bestest! WAAAGH!!!

[@varimatra2088]

​@@Paulo51297 i see you been hitting up the skooma my friend, its not good for you

[@Nate-bn5kk]

Lol or many other games for that matter, it's one of the easiest plots to put in a story: one side thinks they're superior than the other and they just so happen to be another race or ethnicity.

[@Draconatus24]

16:56 You did say that they will get involved if either side wins, in that case, the instability of the empire taking over the unruly nords would help the thalmor. If the nords win then they don’t really have to worry about the imperials coming in and weakening them. Unless the thalmor turns them both against eachother anyways, then we’re all screwed.

[@Draconatus24]

Now, it absolutely should’ve been solved through diplomacy, up until the point of war, the imperials didn’t want to fight the thalmor, that’s the whole reason for the war, so why would they want to after the war?

[@TsukkiZaj]

The reason why I side with the stormcloaks is cuz they weren't trying to kill me when we first met. Sure hadvars like ooh dam you're not on the list, but he still goes through with the execution. For all he knows you're innocent but cuz they caught you they don't even give you a fair trial and associate you with the stormcloaks and immediately want to execute you. Like geez way to defend me hadvar atleast ralofs like hey lemme break you out. I've never joined the imperials, don't think I ever will even for role-playing purposes. I just can't put what they're fighting for aside to even think about joining them. There's no win joining the empire.

[@matro2]

You've sold me on the Thalmor.

[@Harold_Wilson]

As far as I've read, the main theory of the Thalmor's goals are to destroy the towers around Tamriel simultaneously to "unmake reality" and reclaim their former godhood that was stolen from them. A little explanation might be needed. The Aldmeri Dominion believe themselves to be the purest descendants of the Ehlnofey, who might be et'Ada (the Original Spirits, the kinda beings that the Nine Divines are) that decided to forgo their godly nature and remain on Nirn to populate it. The Aldmeri Dominion believe this to be a curse that shackles them to mortality, and want to return to their original states. The way they want to do this is by destroying the 8 towers that stabilise reality and the Aurbis so that they're "unmade" and can reclaim their divinity.

[@KarmatheCorgi]

As a Khajiit it is difficult to choose... on the one hand I see Khajiit are not trusted in these lands. With their caravans being forced to stay outside of the cities, much like real life travelers. Plus, the Aldemeri DID supposedly bring back the moons, which would have been seen as "saving the world" in the eyes of the Khajiit. Nords as a whole seem very distrusting of Khajiit... which may or may not be unfounded as Khajiit are indeed excellent thieves and crafty folk. The amount of hoops this one has to jump through to gain the trust of many Jarls and have a home is frustrating indeed, when one's brothers and sisters can not have the same.

[@christinaedwards5084]

My khajit just wants revenge indiscriminately. Joined the dark brotherhood.

[@wyvernslayer4530]

Well the khajiit sell skooma that's why. It's forbidden in skyrim and yet they sell it.

[@KarmatheCorgi]

@wyvernslayer4530 Is not Khajiits fault the rest of you are... what was it again? Milk drinkers. 🥛

[@infebris]

@@wyvernslayer4530they sell it for their religion, but yeah it is a drug so whatever i guess

[@HeyCarlosYTBR]

The thing is, doesn't matter who you choose or win the war, the Thalmor are going to get some kind of benefit from it, even if the Stormcloacks win. They want for the war to continue, if the Imperials win, they are going to be able to brainwash all of skyrim and destroy their religious beliefs (Talos). Many say that Ulfric is racist against elves, depending, all races but nords, but he has a reason due to the suffering the elves brought to the nords in history.

[@FreedomIII]

I don't think "direct contact remains a possibility" means what you think it means here. As I read it, direct contact has not been made since his initial capture and escape, but was and still is a thing the Thalmor are willing to do in extreme circumstances. That small point aside, this is a great video and I agree with you that, big-picture, siding with the Imperials is the better play to try to thwart Thalmor plans ❤

[@ArkliteDC]

Growing up, I always chose the Stormcloaks because Talos awesome and I'm not gonna let some triangle lookin elf tell me what to do. However, as I got older, I found myself siding with the Imperials, and now I choose them almost every single time. The Empire doesn't like the Elves and have no intention in staying as their puppets in the long term. This is even hinted at by Tulius at the end of the war. One of my largest arguments against Ulfric, is what happens AFTER the Thalmor are defeated. In a situation where the Thalmor are finally pushed out, several independent nations are very likely to end up in conflict. With an Empire victory, the Thalmor being pushed out has much less likelihood of continued conflict. In addition, Ulfric's entire plan almost certainly hinges on Hammerfell being willing allies. The Empire does not require such uncertainties. The only thing it needs is time. Over time, the Empire will recover while the Thalmor continue to drain resources trying to enforce the treaty. In addition, under an Ulfric victory, all Imperial resources are going to be pulled out of Skyrim. Just because Hammerfell is victorious over the elves, does not mean Ulfric will be, especially considering how weakened Skyrim is going to be after such a divisive civil war. There is a very good chance that if the elves were to immediately attack Skyrim following an Ulfric victory, Skyrim may lose. Then, they would be under a certainly much more oppressive occupation of the elves directly. With an Empire victory, things will likely just return to normal prior to Ulfric's uprising. TLDR, my opinion is the Empire is better in the long run, while the Stormcloaks bring a huge amount of uncertainty for the future.

[@NonexistentIntellect]

I played a high elf that had defected. Any time I saw thalmor it was on sight

[@Cosmosdestructor]

Every RPG game I play where I get to create my own character, I play the same character. A true neutral, self-serving man who will do whatever benefits him the most, whether it’s good or evil, legal or illegal.

[@carlosfigueredo5682]

I always do the same the first time, a “main” run. But then in later playthrough I will constrain myself and role play something else

[@ericjimmerson3044]

Sounds boring

[@carlosfigueredo5682]

@@ericjimmerson3044 hence the variability in other playthroughs. But this method lets you do anything in the game without breaking immersion or character. It’s the “normal” run.

[@DeusNova7749]

I always side with the stormcloaks for one simple reasons. The imperals try to chop my head off in the opening scene so fuck 'em

[@infebris]

dude

[@MCB741]

No they didn’t that was one captains order.

[@VictorSivtsev]

And if you go with Hadvar, stormcloaks will try to kill you on the spot.

[@johann323]

The idea they had some grand plan gives a new view to the Mages College questline

[@psylentsage]

Ulfric being a puppet of the thalmor makes sense if you think of how Ulfric was reluctant to get the jagged crown and that the imperials were there somehow before the storm cloaks when the location was supposed to be a secret

[@DrakariZargon]

When you are a first timer you go straight to the Stormcloacks, but when you are more into Elder Scrolls you find yourself supporting the Empire, to the point you dont want to kill the emperor.

[@DjangoFatt]

I find that the longer I play Skyrim the more I support Ulfric, especially after playing previous TES games

[@AutistikWaldo]

Nords thinking nords are the best isn't racist. Nords hating everyone else for not being a Nord is racist. Only a small handful of nords are actually racist but almost every dunmer in Morrowind was racist. That's the difference.

[@vigbjornblaskeeg5813]

By it's very definition, it is in fact racist. And not just because beliefs inform actions. A belief in racial superiority is racist how the hell can you argue otherwise.

[@weler1]

but that's the definition of racism??

[@AutistikWaldo]

@@vigbjornblaskeeg5813 by your logic the phrase black power is racist? It's not. Look up the definition of racism and laugh at yourself

[@AutistikWaldo]

@@weler1 it is not, the definition of racism is hatred for someone because of their race. Not thinking you're the best one.

[@vigbjornblaskeeg5813]

@@AutistikWaldo If they believe by their race they are superior. pride in one's own race isn't the same as a belief in supremacy of that race. By your logic white supremacists aren't racists as long as they don't act on their beliefs. You can go ahead and laugh at yourself for your failed logic.

[@brutusmagnuson315]

Beat solution would be to make a deal where the Empire officially “surrenders”, but still gets all the logistical support they would’ve otherwise gotten and get a really good deal, as to reduce the Thalmor’s legal power without weakening the Empire

[@celestialclementine]

just started playing a week ago and i'm so obsessed. it took me a few days just to figure out what the hell was going on and alchemy etc. it's getting more fun the less "i care" about finishing the main quest and just having fun. It's definitely very overwhelming at the beginning but worth it. only level 13 but slowly getting there

[@thebadash4165]

The fact that deciding who is right and everyone having a different opinion just shows what good writing this game has. Take notes Disney. You don't even need to make a game, just the story part of it.

[@Jarikraider]

The Imperials are in the wrong but for the right reasons and the Stormcloaks are in the right but for the wrong reasons.

[@infebris]

no? the imperials aren't in the wrong for tolerating the thalmor over being completely wiped off the map, nor are the stormcloaks in the right for battling a battle of race superiority

[@hughmann9568]

No. I'm not typing this out for the 15th time but it's people like you who are exactly the issue in this matter.

[@Jarikraider]

@@hughmann9568 The overarching issue is the Thalmor. Left unchecked, the Thalmor would exterminate all of humanity, likely any outliers like the Argonians, and potentially any other elves such as the Dunmer or Bosmer. It is wrong of the Empire to keep a chokehold on Skyrim especially since they basically abandoned Hammerfell to fight against the Thalmor alone. It is also wrong of the Empire to enforce religious sanctions against Talos. However, the Empire is ultimately doing what is necessary not only for the survival of humanity but also anyone that the Thalmor would target. On the flipside, the Stormcloaks are in the right to fight for religious freedom especially given the fact that you don't see the Thalmor cracking down on Dunmer worshipping the Daedra, literally demons, Mephala, Boethiah, or Azura. If the Stormcloaks won the civil war and reclaimed Skyrim as an independent land, the Empire would be further weakened and more vulnerable in the inevitable upcoming war against the Thalmor. Although the best strategy for the Empire would've been to reject the Thalmor and unite all of Tamriel against them, apparently the Empire is simply too exhausted from the previous war to sustain such an effort. This means the Empire needs to play patiently and wait, for generations if necessary, until it is replenished and ready to combat the Thalmor. Skyrim's secession further weakens the Empire's military strength in the long-term and counteracts any hopes that the Empire would one day be powerful enough to defeat the Thalmor.

[@AkiSoraEnjoyer]

I know this is an old comment, but I don't see how the stormcloaks are doing it for the wrong reasons. Ulfric wants a free skyrim.

[@Jarikraider]

@@AkiSoraEnjoyer Wanting to liberate Skyrim and freely worship Talos is noble of the Stormcloaks. The issue is that it will further cripple the Empire's military power when the inevitable war against the Thalmor begins. If the Thalmor had their way, they'd destroy the Empire and Skyrim, and maybe not in that exact order.

[@callmephe]

0:12 i think the rebels are the good guy but jjust fror clarence im going to continue

[@ItsChevnotJeff]

I always seem to side with the Empire because their victory seems like the best outcome for preparing for the inevitable Thalmor War. Talos worship is, indeed, a small price for rebuilding arms for the conflict, and once they have been dealt with Talos will be reinstated or atleast be tolerated as a divine. In fact, had Ulfric not killed Torygg Talos worship would not have been cracked down upon in the first place, as said in Riverwood that the Empire didn't care so long as you woship behind closed doors. The Thalmor can't force raids in every Nord household unless they get a rebellion to justify doing so. It gets even more interesting when you consider the guild questlines. For the Dark brotherhood you can choose to swallow your grudge and side with the Empire to expand your operations, or strengthen your hold in Skyrim while taking revenge against the Empire or dealing the final blow after killing the Emperor. It ties back to cicero's journal where the Black hand was split between expansion or consolidation. Edit: Also, peopleshouldcut Tulius some slack. He has been around Tamriel and has likely been through alot during and following the Great War, so he hasn't been able to acclimate to one region for long. Also, being a general, his job in war tactics takes priority over culture, so he has Legate Rikke be his advisor in otherwise uncharted territory for him culturewise

[@K-dis_Boher]

the entire Stormcloak rebellion is just a roadblock preventing the people of Skyrim from uniting as one and regrouping for retaliation against the Thalmor; giving the Thalmor a false sense of "winning" (even if they plan for it) by siding with the imperials, puts Skyrim in a better state of unity as opposed to the Stormcloaks where there's all the toll of the war on top of instilling a new governmental regime (that is likely puppeteered even more than the empire already is) crush the rebellion before it's too late, so that Skyrim can spend more time preparing for the TRUE threat, the Thalmor

[@PsychicAlchemy]

Personally I side with the Stormcloaks, but either side that defeats the Thalmor is fine by me. My guess for canon is that both Ulfric and Tullius die in the end, and the Dragonborn unites the two to take back Cyrodiil and become a new emperor.

[@infebris]

i personally think the canon ending would be exactly that but the dragonborn becoming the new emperor after his extremely unfortunate death, reinstating the empire of the dragonborns

[@lysandergorisch1969]

The Stormcloaks are the side that make a Thalmor victory more probable. Devide and conquer and with a Stormcloak victory they have done the first half. The Empire is likley to fall and when the Thalmor are at the border there will be nobody to save the Nords nobody to support them.

[@terakhanthis]

Redguards and Nords also have history of elven genocide. The redguards with the 'left-handed elves' of Yokuda, and the nords' ancestors, the atmorans, with the falmer/snow elves. Both also currently carry a great deal of discrimination against elves. So this point could also be the reason for the shots fired at those respective lands.

[@eliaspanayi3465]

Objectively it's the stormcloaks morally, but logistically a united empire has a much better chance of kicking the thalmor

[@X3nnoha]

the redguards singlehandedly kicked the thalmor's ass into dirt, a nord and redguard alliance would put the high elves at the brink of extinction

[@CuteBoi.w.]

Wathever side wins in your playthrough has more chances since the Thalmor will be unable to do anything about the dovahkiin but we don't have any actual reason to believe the empire is gonna go after them so I'll always side with the stormcloaks

[@Nickelback8469]

The Empire while united already lost to the Dominion, while Hammerfell on its own was able to beat the Dominion back. A united Skyrim could easily do the same

[@bruhgod123]

@@Nickelback8469 The Redguards have curved swords meaning they are 10000x more powerful.

[@SalvationIsInChristAlone]

@@X3nnohathe ebonheart covenant, maybe?

[@redfireeverstar2651]

Quite the testament that even now in 2024 we're still talking about this game. I recently just started ot up again to check out and it's just as fun now as it was when I first got it. We've probably by now all have heard why so-so faction/character is dumb or that insert title here is better. Yet here Skyrim still stands. Its a unique experience and despite what many might say, it is a great and well written game worthy of its place as one of the greatest games of all time! Here's to another 10 skyrim rereleases on future consoles!

[@jordan1982]

They were very clever leaving so much ambiguity around these matters. Here we are still talking about it.

[@lordfarquaad8601]

It wasn't cleverness, it was poor, shallow writing. Why are Elves and Beast races allowed to hold titles and purchase land in Eastmarch with hardly a sentence of commentary about how unusual that is? Why are Beast race characters even let into the city?

[@kriegsmanjaeger5545]

Why is it that whenever people bring up Ulfric's dossier in the Thalmor embassy they always overlook that they state the if the war is to end because of outside factors getting involved that it must absolutely not be in the favor of the stormcloaks? Kinda puts a big hole in him being a Thalmor plant.

[@10pointsofslashing]

I’m not sure how that puts a hole in Ulfric being a Thalmor plant 🤔 especially when they straight up say he’s a Thalmor plant, lol The Thalmor just want Skyrim destabilized and in chaos. Ulfric accomplishes that for them. To the Thalmor, Imperial victory means things go back to “normal”- which keeps the Thalmor in absolute control. Stormcloak victory is an unknown and therefore a threat to their control - that’s why they prefer an Imperial victory. With that said, even with Stormcloak victory being an uncertainty, I guarantee they still have contingencies in place. They’re the kings of unconventional warfare in this world, and getting another force to fight your battles for you is page one in that book.

[@lordfarquaad8601]

The Thalmor say he's an "asset". If the CIA refers to someone as an asset, it could mean a spy or informant. It could also mean one who is blackmailed/interrogated into working for them, or a useful idiot. Applying this to the Thalmor, Ulfric is clearly in the latter categories, and is definitely considered to be a useful idiot. He incites a failed revolt in Markarth which the Thalmor use as a precedent to establish hard power in Skyrim. Ulfric's motives are irrelevant, as he has served the Thalmor's purposes. The Stormcloak's victory isn't an unknown: the targeting of Imperial loyalists (among which the Thalmor dwell) would begin immediately. The Thalmor would have to resort to building soft power in Skyrim, a very expensive and slow endeavor.

[@kriegsmanjaeger5545]

@@10pointsofslashing A stormcloak victory isn't an unknown; Ulfric will build up Skyrim's forces without worrying about Thalmor or Imperial intervention with it's borders being harsh mountain terrain to the South and West and the Sea of Ghosts to the North. If either party wanted to get at Skyrim they'd have to risk the majority of their forces crossing mountainous terrain filled with hostile wildlife, a sea that got its name for a very good reason, or going through Morrowind, which surprise surprise isn't too friendly with the Empire or Thalmor and is just as inhospitable thanks to the red Mountain erupting. But if by some miracle they get past all of that with minimal losses they still have to deal with Skyrim itself which in the lore is stated to be absolutely inhospitable to even the Nords, and they've adapted to live their.

[@garlicg4532]

regarding your other nations being inspried to rebel, im not really sure which nations you mean? The only province left in the empire is high rock, other than cyrodiil of course

[@billymiles6870]

I think Bethesda is going to have the Stormcloaks win the Civil War. Just my feeling.

[@10pointsofslashing]

If they do confirm a canon victor, I 100% agree with you. Stormcloak victory creates the most immediate opportunity for additional conflict with the Thalmor. If the next game has anything to do with fighting the Thalmor, I’d wager it takes place shortly after Skyrim and that the canon victor was the Stormcloaks

[@JohnDoe-xs5gv]

@@10pointsofslashing Bethesda will never make the Stormcloak ending canon for one simple reason. If the Stormcloaks won, the Empire would also lose High Rock and would cease to be an empire. A Stormcloak victory would almost assuredly result in the death of the empire. The reason why this matters is because the empire is way too marketable and Bethesda would never want them to cease to exist.

[@jamesmccloud7535]

You forgot to mention that the Empire helped hammerfell a lot in driving out the thalmor

[@qwertyshblong]

even my chaotic evil high elf hates the thalmor

[@OrkDiktator]

There are several videos showing how strong the empire really is. Cyrodiil was very weak as the Great War started. Still recovering from the civil war after Chancellor Ocato's death. Titus Mede became Emperor and his son followed. Since Summerset became independent during the Oblivion Crisis, the Thalmor prepared for the Great War and used Daedric magic to conquer the Imperial City As the Great War began the Empire had some 12 weak Legions. After the Great War the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordate to win time. Humans have a higher birthrate than Altmer. And the Empire could fill its ranks significantly faster than the Aldmeri Dominion. The Aldmeri Dominion lost its entire main Army in the Battle of the Red Ring. In Vardenfell still is a strong Opposition against the Altmer Occupation.. And as the events of TES 5 take place, the Empire has a military strength of some 17 fully equipped and professionally trained Legions. Nearly all of them are stationed at the southern borders of Cyyrodiil. The Empire is clearly preparing for a Second Great War. The Imperial Legion in Skyrim is one single Legion, freshly recruited from the local population. The Empire sent Tullius with a few hundred soldiers to Skyrim to solve the crisis with a Nord solution under Legat Rikke. Meanwhile, south of the Pale Pass, the Empire has at least 1, maybe even 2 fully equipped and trained professional Legions for the case Tullius fails. So the Stormcloaks barely can handle one improvised Legion. Even if they win, the empire will intervene with 1 or even 2 Legions and crush the Separatists. The Empire respects Skyrim and the Nords as the second core province and the second source people of Imperial power beside Cyrodiil and the Nedic Imperials. Every Human Empire since Alessia was built on the Alliance of these 2 countries and peoples. Talos was the founder of the 3rd Empire. The Stormcloak rebellion is serving the Thalmor. Every step Ulfric made since he he was POW of the Thalmor played into their hands. The Markarth incident allowed the Thalmor to send their Justiciars to Skyrim. They can better and nearly openly spy on the preparations of the Empire for the Second Great War. Before Markarth the White-Gold Concordat was irrelevant for normal people. Nobody cared if somebody worshipped Talos or not all of this changed with Markarth. The deeper you get into the lore, the less you can side with the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks are good people, but dumb. The Loyalists are good people but smart.

[@Wikiwi]

Played a Dunmer Stormcloak once and, once Skyrim belonged to the Stormcloaks, using a mod that expands Thanehood, I was able to systematically and uncompromisingly arrest and imprison the Racists who wander the Grey Quarter and shout Slurs and insults during the night. It was.. interesting, specifically considering most Dunmer who live in the Grey Quarter openly support the empire, while most outside-of-skyrim Dunmer (excluding the House Hlaalu) despise the Empire. After being a fighter/warrior.. h-he became a fucking stealth archer after I got a Respec Mod..

[@10pointsofslashing]

THE STEALTH ARCHER BUILD STRIKES AGAIN!

[@justdominik9812]

I have a few problems with this. First of all we can relatively reasonably assume the thalmor dont want world domination since they could easily seize parts of tamriel for themselves (morrowind mostly, which is so weak that they would stand no chance against the aldmeri dominion), and they could easily plot the high rock kingdoms against each other, but they dont do that and instead focus on hammerfell and secondarilly the empire. You also seem to have straight up ignored the part of the thalmor dossier that says that stormcloak victory should be also avoided. I mean I would say overall that the stormcloaks are better because they directly go against what the thalmor want (refering directly to the post MK made on the thalmor wanting to unmake the world).

[@rahovartiv3464]

Actually I think the dominion would probably fail horrendously trying to conquer morrowind. The only race more proud and arrogant than the altmer are the dunmer, the dunmer would be willing to probably send the entire population against the altmer and destroy literally everything themselves if it meant not letting the dominion have their way with their country. 2nd considering that a large portion of morrowind is now owned by the Argonians who also have proven to have a very strong military and in general are much better equipped to thrive in morrowinds climate would probably stop the dominion in its tracks. Remember black marsh didn't play a part in the great war so to be honest theirs a good chance their military at present is stronger or atleast equal to that of the empire.

[@justdominik9812]

@@rahovartiv3464 Morrowind is at it's weakest point at the moment, if they weren't fully capable to deflect the empire when the tribunal was around they won't be able to repel the dominion at their weakest point.

[@rahovartiv3464]

@@justdominik9812 Don't get me wrong I definitely agree with you about morrowinds current state but just judging from how they are socially I feel they'd be willing to throw themselves at the dominion solely to push the dominion out.

[@justdominik9812]

@@rahovartiv3464 they could do that but Morrowind only has the house redoran's armies at it's disposal, the dominion was able to crush the empire nearly into destruction and the empire was still fairly strong at that time. The altmer could probably easily genocide all of Morrowind if they wanted to, they really are weak without the tribunal.

[@chrisreed4065]

@@justdominik9812 Morrowind is on the other side of Tamriel from Alinor, You're talking about 14th century England conquering Japan. The logistics don't work out.

[@jettgray4074]

This is why you escape with ralof, then join the empire

[@nerooblivion]

Technically, the empire is right to want to break the rebellion and reassimilate skyrim and its forces back into the empire. By fracturing the empire, they're causing the entire empire to be weakened. Taking a loss for a bit while you regroup your might sometimes works better because you can reposition. Ulfric had the right to be upset about the outlawing sure, but had they pooled the people's of the empire against the Aldmeri dominion, they'd have a better chance of beating the elves back and removing the Dominion. Ulfric had the right of it to fight the elves because of their trying to kill basically all of nirn, but the imperials should've talked through things with Ulfric and united them instead of warring across the land ultimately weakening both the empire and skyrim. Its kinda a grey subject

[@heistbros8575]

The empire deserves to die. They sent even septims and they willing have land over whose inhabitants proved to be stronger than the imperial army. There's no reason to believe that Skyrim couldn't easily defend against the Thalmor. The empire is too corrupt and inefficient to beat the Thalmor. When people have something to believe in (Free worship of Talos) they fight way harder.

[@Raganui]

I don't understand how The Empire was getting it's ass kicked in so much that they had to do the White Gold Concordat but Hammerfell by itself kicked the Dominion's ass and there are apparently similar stories elsewhere. Anyways, from what I understand, the whole civil war is a lot of 'people doing dumb things and being manipulated into doing dumb things' that starts it.

[@NamelessKing1597]

Less land to protect, and the land is arid so the Dominion was probably just like "not worth it" and left. Also the Redguards are notorious for using guerilla tactics and having the only naval force capable of going toe to toe with the Aldmeri Navy while the legionaires are a large standing army that specialises in more conventional warfare.

[@what4521]

And don't forget one li-i-i-itle thing : redguards fought Dominion forces AFTER they've suffered heavy casualties in the war with the Empire, and had unofficial help from imperials with "former legionaries" going to Hammerfell to help them fight.

[@michaeltelson9798]

Ulfric also doesn’t follow the tenets of Jurgen Windcaller. Using the Thu’um in a duel is one of the cardinal sins by Jurgen as well as using it for military purposes. Jurgen came to those rules after the Nords lost the Battle of Red Mountain. He believed that the Aedra left them to their fate for misusing the Thu’um. Yes, there are many tales about great Nordic tales using the Thu’um but that all changed with Jurgen. Just reread the 10 stops up to High Hrothgard.

[@Samthebritishgent]

Mostly because of the orb of verminia. That’s gone now and the empires much stronger. The dominion has no chance this time

[@fligy39]

Put it this way: if you attack an empire and can get at its capital, you bring a full army and your best people to lead it. You don't do the same for a smaller province. On top of this, add the fact that Cyrodiil was defended by a mixed army of races from all over Tamriel, while Hammerfell was defended by an army of Redguards in their home turf where their power is greatest. It's sort of like, during WWII, attacking France vs attacking Russia in the middle of winter, only in this scenario, Russians have weird snow magic that their homeland is perfect for.

[@GhenTuongHB]

All hail to Ulfric! You are the High King! In your great honor we drink and we sing.

[@ashliferris]

Do you get to the cloud district very often?

[@KarmatheCorgi]

Oh what am I saying, of course you don't

[@xPhisch]

*quicksaves*

[@totalygamingtemplar]

*pulls out empty black soul gem*

[@XVERLXRD420]

I actually made a Thalmor agent character once. His main things were heavy armor, summon swords, and strangulation, and then I realized I made Darth Vader.

[@TheMeteoDragoon]

I remember that my last character I played full of through skyrim was a decendent of the Septim that disappeared on Akavir. When he returned to the Cyrodiil since the Septim Dynasty was no longer a thing He joined the Imperial Legion and snuck into the Dark Brotherhood to take out the Emperor who signed the Concordat then reunite the empire against the Thalmor revealing that the Septim family will oppose the Thalmor's plans.

[@AGuyNamedRaf]

From an RP standpoint, during the Helgen attack the imperial soldiers and Tullius were trying to get everyone including prisoners to safety. The stormcloaks, especially Ulfric, tried to escape to save their own skins. I usually play characters than can put aside their personal grievances, including almost getting executed, aside if it means they can save civilians.

[@infebris]

the imperials definitely have more honor than the stormcloaks, thats for sure

[@thomasmasson7905]

Bruh did you forgot about the whole "who cares of he's not on the list" thing? And about ralof making sure you get to the tower allright and guiding you to the keep? The stormcloak couldn't follow you because they avoided direct contact with the imperials

[@Ackalan]

The fact that they are five unarmed and tied up prisoners that were about to be executed without a trail isn't a factor in this at all to you?

[@johnathanera5863]

​@@Ackalanuhhh? No? 5 of them 100% dont need nor deserve a trial. We just get unlucky getting cought in the same battle/area.

[@Ackalan]

@@johnathanera5863 Thank you for you opinion, I guess you won't mind dying to a mob then.