Who Are the Good Guys? An Analysis of the Skyrim Civil War

Revisiting The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim to discuss the intricacies of the Skyrim Civil War.
#skyrim #elderscrolls #gaming
Chapters:
00:00: Intro
01:36: The Great War
03:48: The Markarth Incident
06:42: The Stormcloak Rebellion
07:13: The Imperial Legion
08:05: The Thalmor
11:10: What happens if my side wins?
14:01: Thalmor dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak
15:54: Who SJ sides with
17:39: Who are the good guys?
19:08: Bringing it all home
21:53: Do this in your RPGs
22:22: Thank you, please like and subscribe!
Music:
-The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim: Original Game Soundtrack by Jeremy Soule

[@a.j.carter2294]

So many refer to Ulfric as “racist.” Tell me: what has Ulfric actually said or done to provide solid proof of this? None of his dialogue so much as suggests this beyond bitterness toward the Altmer, more specifically the Thalmor, this being completely understandable. He continues to allow the Dunner refugees to live within the city even though he has every opportunity to kick them out if he hated them so much; instead they live there rent free and are split between those who actually try to assimilate/contribute and those who refuse. Ulfric only ever speaks of national sovereignty, which many unfortunately tend to associate with racial supremacy. It’s just not true.

[@10pointsofslashing]

@a.j.carter2294 Dude, thank you so much for this comment! I'm glad somebody pointed this out. I, personally, do not think that Ulfric is a full-blown, conventional racist. I think that he is just as proud of his race as everybody else in Elder Scrolls. It's just national sovereignty as you pointed out - true and absolute dedication to Skyrim and her people, which comes across as racism to some people. However, the issue that my characters have with him (the ones I referred to in the video) is his support of the segregation in Windhelm. I've heard the argument before that he segregates them to keep them safe from the Nords who really are racist - which just comes across to me as weak leadership. We know that Ulfric Stormcloak is definitely not a weak leader - and a strong leader, which he is, could just say, "no more segregation. If you have a problem with that, you can take it up with me personally" and all those truly racist Nords that worship the ground Ulfric walks on would either violently shift their perspective or just keep their mouths shut about it and do as he says. Ulfric is making a choice to support the segregation of the Dunmer and Argonians - which translates to those two characters as overt racism. Especially to my lawful good dude. However, again - I, personally, don't really think he's a racist. I think he has his hands full and is overwhelmed with the war, and just doesn't have time to help them. He mentions that in passive dialogue, albeit in a very dismissive way. I think that as a strong leader he's doing his best to keep that stress behind closed doors and away from the visibility of his troops - and his dismissiveness is easily mistaken for racism. Ulfric Stormcloak is just a dude who took a gigantic bite of a really big sandwich and while he's totally capable of chewing it, it's taking a lot more effort than he thought. But being that he's in a position of mega leadership and every eye in Skyrim and the Empire is on him right now, he's trying to keep his cool and focus only on chewing the sandwich. And when the other food on the plate is like, "hey, what about us!?" and he goes, "yo, I really can't deal with you right now", all of those eyes go, "damn, so he just hates other food. Got it." Do I think he could do more for them? Yeah, I do. But nobody is perfect and as I said he has a whole lot more on his plate than he anticipated. Do I think he's a full-blown racist? No. Anybody that wants to help Skyrim is cool by him. The love and support of his cause supersedes his treatment of people. Wouldn't be the case if he was actually a racist.

[@a.j.carter2294]

@@10pointsofslashing All good points, but on the topic of the Windhelm segregation, at least from my perspective, it’s the Dunmer holding themselves back on that account. Like I said in my original comment, only some of the dark elves are actually contributing to the local Windhelm economy while the rest stick to the Grey Quarter, so it makes sense that none of them have yet gathered the finances necessary to move out; I’ve never heard dialogue suggesting Dunner aren’t permitted to have property outside the Gray Quarter (TWO ALTMER hold property in the city which Ulfric detractors ignore), and a Dunmer character can purchase Hjerim. It’s also worth noting that both elven races are major players in the Windhelm criminal underworld. On account of the Argonians….well, if I were Jarl, I too would have qualms about allowing a race of fish-lizard-men ultimately controlled by an alien hivemind into the heart of my people’s most ancient and sacred city. No qualms about putting them to work though 💀 And they’re far more innocent than the Dunmer. Unfortunate for them, but Skyrim is for the Nords.

[@10pointsofslashing]

😂😂😂 top tier comment. Like I said, gigantic sandwich vs. fish-lizards? Lemme deal with this sandwich first. If that makes me a racist, whatever man. I make videos about my opinions and then post them on the actual internet, I’ve been called way worse.

[@Lorekeeper72]

@@a.j.carter2294 Another point about the Argonians, Argonians and Dunmer absolutely despise each other with a lot of Dunmer made refugees because of Argonian attacks; if Ulfric let them into the city that has a proud Dunmer population, a race riot would almost certainly happen and with the guard stretched thin by the war, its unlikely they would be able to contain it.

[@twiddlerat9920]

1. If he harbored no ill-will against the Dunmer, he'd let them live in other parts of the city 2. The Argonians straight up aren't allowed in. Please try to explain how Ulfric has no part in that decision 3. Conditions straight up improve amongst the dunmer and argonians once he's gone

[@ED11169]

The most ideal scenario would be having a dragonborn human unite the realms by presenting himself as the second coming of tiber septim and then proceed to unleash the Numidium on top of the summerset isles like Todd Howard unleashing an unwanted skyrim update on my mod setup.

[@vacuxamunita]

LOL" those updates.

[@90snetworkproductions79]

Very relatable that last part. But the only way for the war to stop is for the Dragonborn to never come back from fighting Alduin. Both sides agreed to cease hostilities, so if you never came back, the war would be indefinitely delayed. Of course, you'd have to get plenty of the guilds you can join to vouch for you, claiming your, "return," taking an unknown amount of time due to it being in another realm that operates on a different timescale. (One hour in Sovengarde being a year, for example.) All while you paid a visit to the face sculptor in Riften and had some surgery done. Its either that, or let Herma Mora do some nasty things with tentacles to you to amp the bend will shout to be as powerful as Miraak's was. Both Stormcloaks and Imperials would be mind-controlled, but they'd stop fighting, and be loyal to the Dragonborn, who would lead them in battle vs the Elves.

[@jacobbown]

@@90snetworkproductions79 same for the last part, except vampires instead of herma mora. Heck, probably both, i usually save dawnguad for last.

[@regiuseques6333]

Lol, yes that would be the perfect outcome.

[@taibasarovadil]

​@90snetworkproductions79 this feels like the main quest of Morrowind

[@sebisultana5603]

2 Random Aldmeri Dominion soldiers chatting: "Are we the baddies?"

[@varthalgamekiin4931]

The other one turns to the first, "Um...Yeah? How are you just now realizing this?"

[@dashua1735]

@@varthalgamekiin4931 And then the both of them laughs

[@devinm.6149]

I know I recognize this but I can't remember the name of the Duo it came from.

[@sulliedpat]

@@devinm.6149That Mitchell And Webb Effect

[@devinm.6149]

@@sulliedpat thank you muchly.

[@nightangelx1513]

It really is a testament to the quality of Skyrim that even after 10 years we’re still making videos about it.

[@msihcs8171]

And a testament to the failure of any company to come up with something to completely dethrone it. There are other games that do each portion better (in some cases considerably better) but none seem to wrap everything into one package and just succeed in every regard.

[@Leviathan7777]

quality nah something yes

[@Andres_W]

Oh yeah.... Emil Pagliarulo is a genius! LOL 🤦‍♂

[@sit-insforsithis1568]

@@msihcs8171I think rdr2 might be that game

[@agk4589]

@@sit-insforsithis1568 Every time I play the intro and I get the part where I have to play a quick time event of Arthur Morgan repairing a wheel on a carriage I always think to myself yeah this is the apex of gaming.

[@chriscloninger2355]

Anyone else think its chilling a guild of time travelling wizards appeared after thousands of years of silence to stop the thalmor from obtaining a piece of a god?

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

That... is a good point. They didn't even appear to stop the Mythic Dawn, that's a testament to how insane and concerning the Thalmor are.

[@thalmor_justiciar]

Damn them stupid wizards!

[@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271]

Dang I forgot about that,thalmor must go

[@Private-Potato]

It’s like when Switzerland stops being neutral. You know the situation is serious.

[@infebris]

@@Cyrus_T_Laserpunchbecause akatosh, the god of time, got there first to defeat mehrunes dagon, time works weirdly for timeless beings, think of it as if they don't *have* to do anything, they won't

[@highlyopinionated5611]

Although I doubt Bethesda did it intentionally, for me the civil war is one of the best written quests in the Elder Scrolls period, simply on the bases that there is no right or wrong side here. Both Empire and Stormcloaks have valid points, but also glaring flaws that make them unsuited to rule. The only right answer would be to remain neutral and protect Skyrims people as a whole, but the game pretty much forces you to intervene eventually, after defeating Alduin. Wich forces you to pick whatever you see as the lesser of two evils. It gives me major Game of Thrones vibes (the early seasons) and I love it.

[@chakatBombshell]

The right decision is to unify Tamriel and destroy the Nazified elves like Pelinal Whitestrake intended.

[@edot7266]

Actually you can avoid it entirely. You can set up a peace council at the throat of the world with thr greybeards and they'll agree to a ceasefire until the dragons are dealt with

[@highlyopinionated5611]

@@edot7266 Exactly. Until the dragons are dealt with. Once you defeat Alduin, a couple of in-game days later if you return to Whiterun and speak to Balgruuf, the side you picked at the beginning of the game will request him to finally commit to their side. The ultimatum is spoken and the battle of Whiterun takes place, just as it would if you play the civil war quest intentionally.

[@robinsondermann6715]

The Story behind the civil war is great, but Not how they dod the quests

[@highlyopinionated5611]

@@robinsondermann6715 👍

[@alexandertheprotogen6180]

As a writer I never liked the idea of separating wars into good vs bad sometimes it’s all just shades of gray

[@jonathandefoy6376]

I mean sure, but come on Hitler murdering three million jews is not good...

[@kibawhitefang7176]

And let the readers decide 😅Makes sense too hehe

[@totalygamingtemplar]

ye, they both have points, but uh, we can all agree whiterun are the good guys and we need to make the choices that benifit them the most

[@kibawhitefang7176]

@@totalygamingtemplar Question: how in the end do we defeat the Thalmor?

[@brawlgasm56]

The skyrim Civil War is entirely grey. Outlawing talks worship was unacceptable, but rebelling and fighting the empire because of it was also just strategically stupid. It's a war of pragmatists and idealists, strategy and tact over honor and tradition

[@pwn3ronetwothree]

It's important to note as well, that Windhelm has a number of Altmer living in it that are in good standing with the community, and don't get flack from people like Rolf Stone-fist. If Ulfric or the Stormcloaks would have a problem with any of the elves, it would be the Altmer and not the Dunmer due to the Aldmeri Dominion.. And on the topic of Rolf Stone-fist, while he's crude, his suspicions that those loyal to the Empire are hiding in the Grey Quarter is actually true. Upstairs in the New Gnisis Cornerclub, the owner has a suit of Imperial Armor on his shelf. People often overlook the fact that of all of the cities in Skyrim, Windhelm is the only city with a sizable population of Dunmer, as well as the only city that actively took in refugees from Morrowind. Of course that's going to raise tensions in the city, but Ulfric saw it as important enough to give an entire quarter of his city to the refugees. After this happened, the Argonians showed up, and it takes very little knowledge of the lore to know that the tensions between the Argonians and Dunmer are HIGH due to the Dunmer engaging in slavery of the beast races for so long. The Argonians invaded Morrowind as retribution for the slavery. Ulfric keeping the Argonians out of the city is done entirely to avoid a small civil war from breaking out in his city. Moving onto the Empire, people claim that they're the good guys for trying to beat back the racist Stormcloaks, but lets look at Solitude, the headquarters of the Empire in Skyrim. For one, they outright BAN Khajiit from their city, much like every other city does in Skyrim, so they aren't better in that regard. And General Tullius, the man who is often regarded as an Honorable and Respectful man REGULARLY makes derogatory remarks about the Nords of Skyrim, disrespecting their traditions and acting as if Imperials are superior. And finally, since somehow people continue to get this messed up to this day, the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric refers to him as an Asset. This does not mean 'Agent' or 'Ally' or even imply that he's working with the Thalmor, simply that they have their uses for him, which includes allowing his war to rage on for as long as possible to keep the empire busy. This is the most misunderstood piece of info in the game, and as much as I think it's a genius plot point, I wish they hadn't included it because all it did was give a bunch of midwits on Reddit something to scream about for 13 years.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey, dude - so apparently there’s another video out there where some guy super duper hones in on the “asset” thing, and a bunch of people in here have immediately jumped in the comments section as soon as they hear me speak the word “asset” before watching the rest of the video to tell me I don’t know the difference between “asset” and “agent”. Which, by the way, is straight up hilarious to the people in my life that know me personally 😂 I never said that I think Ulfric is working with or for the Thalmor, willing or knowing. I said that the implication in the dossier is that A) the Thalmor have contacted him before in some capacity, and B) they allow him to operate because they see him as useful. He is absolutely an asset to the Thalmor because he’s destabilized one of the strongest provinces in Tamriel. And their uses for him may go far beyond the civil war. That doesn’t mean he has to be helping them directly - but he is, objectively, helping them indirectly. The possibility is of course there that their meaning behind “asset” is deeper than that, which I brought up in the video, but I don’t buy into that very much. And even upon a Stormcloak victory, Ulfric Stormcloak is still some type of Thalmor asset. There’s nothing misunderstood about that and it still feeds my ultimate point, so I have no idea why all these dudes are like, “well, he said ‘asset’. Gotta go quote that video at him now.” I’m sorry if this comes across as directed at you or anything like that, it’s really not lol. I sincerely appreciate your comment and insight, I’ve just had 40 million dudes tell me I’m stupid because I don’t know what an asset is and I’m frankly tired of it as they’re all putting words in my mouth and assuming I believe something I don’t because some other guy on KZbin had a strong point (that doesn’t apply here). I feel like all the “agent vs. asset” guys are just jumping down my throat without taking the time to digest my point. This video is about how both sides have flaws, racists (and I don’t personally think that Ulfric is one of them), and otherwise. Everybody is right and wrong at the same time, everybody is the good guy and we’re all ripping into eachother about it lol. So far everything the “agent vs. asset” guys have mentioned are all things that I agree with. I don’t think Ulfric is racist or being puppeted by Thalmor, Bethesda just put in enough threads to make you able to lean that way. I don’t think the situation in Windhelm is evidence of Ulfric being racist, I just think his hands are full with the war and he’s making the best decisions he’s capable of while embroiled in a province-spanning civil war. And I’m not a big fan of Tullius and his condescending attitude towards other races at all. Like, I’m on your side, man - I’m just not on your side in the fictional, video game war. And that’s the beauty of this storytelling.

[@pwn3ronetwothree]

@@10pointsofslashing I was not referring to you with the comment about the asset vs Agent thing. I watched your entire video before commenting and you didn't mess it up. I get that having a bunch of people bring up the same thing to you is annoying, but I wasn't pointing it at you directly. None of my comment was really a directed attack or anything like that, just adding to the conversation. I mentioned in another comment about PatricianTV's video on Skyrim, and how the section about the Civil war is a really interesting watch since you seem interested in the topic.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey man, thank you so much for that super gracious response. I got you, and I sincerely mean it when I say thank you so much for adding value to the conversation. I love the intelligent discourse that can come from this debate when two people who are on opposing sides of this war can come together and just talk it over. From an Imperial to (I assume) a Stormcloak - mad respect, dude. If we meet on the battlefield, Talos guide the victor ⚔️

[@northstar4601]

While they may be imperial supporters it isn’t nice to treat them so poorly. It is natural that there are imperial supporters throughout the land occupied by the rebels. Skyrim was a loyal province for a long time.

[@robloxmaker50]

Will say this and it may be due to me playing with mods (although I can't find the one that I would have had that changed the civil war??) Whenever I do a Legion/imperial run of Skyrim as any race but imperial, nord and I think Breton and red guard (I almost never play Breton or red guard so that's why I have to I think) generic imperial conversion (this is NPCs commenting when you talk to them or are near them) is almost always derogatory towards my character until after the stormcloaks fall, meanwhile unless I play a high elf (at which point it's the same as imperial where they start giving respectful comments after Legion/imperials is dealt with) for me stormcloaks about the time just after whiterun is secured I start get lines that are on par with being atleast respected/trusted. (By derogatory comments I mean it's statements such as "oh great a khajiit guess I have to tell the rest of the camp to watch their stuff" or "I'm going to need you to let me search for any skooma on you cat" which sometimes it's funny, but can be annoying when your getting khajiit/argonian lines when your play a wolf like race because of a beast race tag and it being drawn from beast race comments if you Don't have enough to draw from it seems lol)

[@YinzBurgh99]

The Argonians are kept outside because of the tension with the dark elves. Many of the dark elves are refugees because of the Argonian invasion.

[@infebris]

thats right but what does it have to do with this?

[@nexerkarigum4031]

Sounds like a good excuse

[@jackgrove4621]

uh no. they are refugees because of the red mountain.

[@YinzBurgh99]

@@jackgrove4621 Both

[@samueldesmondtuah1421]

The Hero of Kvatch and Champion of Cyrodiil would have been disappointed to see the Empire of today

[@Lavery760]

As the deadric prince of madness he probably really enjoys what he's seeing I'd think.

[@samueldesmondtuah1421]

Fair 😆@@Lavery760

[@stump4522]

The Empire in Skyrim isnt the same one as Oblivion. This Empire is an usurper that won the Cyrodiil Civil War.

[@Sgt_ioiwsl]

@@stump4522with the return of the Dragonborn it may become the old empire once more

[@shawnthompson2303]

And, you know…. *TALOS.*

[@xanderhuskie5172]

I always go empire for the exact reasons you do, with the added belief that a United and powerful empire is the best way to set up an ultimate future victory over the Thalmor

[@ChaoticGoodPeasant23]

There is literally no reason to believe the Empire would go against the Thalmor. They've bent over for them everytime to date, and will do it again. They aren't going to suddenly develop a backbone lmfao.

[@McHobotheBobo]

​@ChaoticGoodPeasant23 It's a matter of manpower not backbone, the victory in the Imperial City proves that. Mer have the advantage of living longer, men have the advantage of breeding faster. The longer is peace, the mightier is man. Worth noting as well the Thalmor did not have open agents in the empire until after Ulfric's convenient little outburst in Markarth......

[@MrRawrCEO]

@@ChaoticGoodPeasant23There are plenty of reasons why you should believe that the Empire would go against them...many in their military aren't happy about current affairs and very eager for round 2. That said there are also plenty of people in the empire who are corrupt as hell and don't want another war since it's "bad for business" so it could go either way.

[@regiuseques6333]

Agreed

[@martincostasvigliecca8984]

Nah dude, the empire are the Thalmor bitches. And they are just enforcing the Thalmor rules for them. So fuk the empire! (sorry for my bad english)

[@Jarikraider]

The Imperials are in the wrong but for the right reasons and the Stormcloaks are in the right but for the wrong reasons.

[@infebris]

no? the imperials aren't in the wrong for tolerating the thalmor over being completely wiped off the map, nor are the stormcloaks in the right for battling a battle of race superiority

[@HuhJuhWuh]

As a proud telvanni sorcerer and mycologist, i can as a matter of fact confirm that the barbaric stormcloaks, the arrogant aldmeri and the mongrel dogs of the empire are all villans.

[@totalygamingtemplar]

as a mercenary running from house redoren and got captured by the empire in skyrim, i can relate. tho i have taking a liking to a girl from whiterun who helps me on my travels(yes i downloaded a mod to make lydia have voicelines)

[@thalmor_justiciar]

"Arrogant aldmeri"? Do you want me to report this to Elenwin?

[@HuhJuhWuh]

@@thalmor_justiciar im a god! How can you report a god!? What a grand and intoxicating innocence.

[@Angelikatosh]

Love the thought at the end, about every character being their own person and having separate world views and beliefs - that’s how you really get the most out of an RPG, and that’s the right way to play a game like Skyrim. Great video!

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey, thank you so much! I appreciate that like crazy. And yes, exactly! I get so freakin hyped about playing RPGs that way. It is definitely the best way - make a character and make choices based on what that character would do. It’s so much more immersive and fun, and it opens you up to other possibilities and perspectives that you may have never entertained otherwise. Cheers!

[@thalmor_justiciar]

Of course, there are many different ways to go about it, but if you go against the Thalmor then you're wrong.

[@Grombrindal]

You aren't going to enjoy Warhammer if fantasy racism upsets you this much

[@jasonboehringer4583]

Race wars!

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

To know that all other races and cultures are inferior to the Empire is not racism, it's called being correct.

[@Paulo51297]

@@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch you fink dat 'umies are superior? Da orkz ar da bestest! WAAAGH!!!

[@varimatra2088]

​@@Paulo51297 i see you been hitting up the skooma my friend, its not good for you

[@Nate-bn5kk]

Lol or many other games for that matter, it's one of the easiest plots to put in a story: one side thinks they're superior than the other and they just so happen to be another race or ethnicity.

[@catwaffles9960]

What's not really discussed in this debate is that the imperial troops are pretty much all local recruits from Skyrim. It's Nords vs. Nords.

[@Cybernaut76]

Yeah. There are no actual legionaries in Skyrim. They are deployed elsewhere.

[@capcap184]

Wrong you can find imperials in the game especially in solitude

[@Cybernaut76]

@@capcap184 Are you talking about actual legionaries or inhabitants of Skyrim recruited to serve under Tullius?

[@capcap184]

@@Cybernaut76 yes

[@capcap184]

@@Cybernaut76 actual legionaries

[@90snetworkproductions79]

I used to think the Empire were the good guys, but lots of terrible things happened after the war. *The Thalmor knew the Nords would revolt about a ban on Talos worship, and it anyway, making it an, "empire problem."* *-Conveniently-timed disappearances of Nords who owned critically important farms/mines, courtesy of Thalmor Justiciars who NEVER stopped killing, abducting, and imprisoning Nords.* *-Maven Blackbriar exploited this, now even Riften's guards are criminals, and she's a slumlord.* *-Thalmor used abducted Nords to ransom wealthy families into ratting out Talos worshippers.* *-Said locations were then purchased by Thalmor-controlled foreigners, like that d!lldo Nazeem.* *-Now the Thalmor control most of Skyrim's money, evidenced by those at Elenwen's party.* *-The Empire enforce Thalmor laws on Skyrim's people, arresting and killing those who resist, in the name of, "peace." Only to preserve a dying Empire, that likely won't survive another war.* *- Elenwen was there when they were about to execute Ulfric, his troops, and The Dragonborn hero without a trial, which is a MAJOR war crime, (yes i know, a fair trial would've meant complete anarchy, and all of Skyrim would've went up in arms, it still wasn't right.)* *-In the dossier Elenwen herself requested Ulfric's torturer to place his cell outside her office...* *The Thalmor also admit to arming the Stormcloacks with weapons and armor, hence, "indirect aid." *The Thalmor want the war to go on as long as possible, maximizing casualties on both sides.* Can't root for that, even if the Stormcloaks also committed war crimes, its not as bad as the above listed. I also used to think Ulfric was a huge bigot, but in other games, the Dark/High Elves were next-level bigots. So in a world where everyone is a bigot, NO ONE IS.

[@wolves600]

Its stated in game that the Ban on talos was not enforced much provided it was not super blatant until the rebellion Also Ulfric literally also was involved int he markarth incident you know the thing that executed a ton of innocent people and banned their faith making him a hypocrite

[@Ackalan]

@@wolves600 Strange how the only thing that refences that massacre is an imperial propaganda book, and not a single living person anywhere in Skyrim. Yes, it was a bloody fight, but no one ever reference a massacre.

[@wolves600]

@@Ackalan you mean other than the literal forsworn you can talk to

[@Ackalan]

@@wolves600 Which ones claims there were a massacre?

[@wolves600]

@@Ackalan well one talks about them executing his innocent daughter Etc I never said their as a massacre just that they executed innocents

[@RPGTKingpin]

Something I didn't hear mentioned is what Tullius says if you end the quest siding with the Stormcloaks. The specific phrasing escapes me at the moment but the jist is he heavily implies this is exactly what the Dominion wanted, and that this war was always about breaking up the empire to make it easier to conquer. On its own this can be seen as a case of guilting you into regretting your decision. But that only makes sense in a meta sense, if Tullius is aware he is part of a story. The more likely case is that he knew all along that the war against the Dominion wasn't over. How couldn't he? He's a senior Imperial General singularly tasked with bringing one of the Empire's strongest provinces back under control. The Blades may be gone but the Penitus Oculatus has taken their place as the Empire's intelligence branch. The Thalmor, their beliefs and their objectives have to have been at least hinted at over the course of the war and ensuing cold war that followed. They outright boast of Elven supremacy, and will likely have done as much during the war and during interrogations at the time. They refer to the Great War as the First War against the Empire (also likely well known to Tullius and the Penitus Oculatus.) Then there's the Synod. They were actively trying to get hold of artifacts of power independently of the Thalmor. Bringing the strongest artifacts in Tamriel together in the Imperial City; the heart of the Empire and the last place to fall in any upcoming war. All this tells me that the Empire is trying to consolidate their power quietly for the second war against the Dominion, and the signing of the White-Gold Concordat was just a placating gesture to buy them time. Combine that with the assassination of the Emperor (who was widely known to be relatively weak and disliked, especially after the war) by a member of the Elder Council and the fact he was neither surprised nor particularly saddened by it, and it paints another interesting image: His death is part of the plan. Dying of old age and handing the throne down to a successor he's chosen will only extend that legacy of weakness and unpopularity. But being assassinated by an unknown party would instead galvanize the Empire's citizens. It would make them angry, defensive, eager to strike back, because that's how faction mentality works. It's "us" and "them". By attacking the leader of the Empire and killing him, it's the highest form of hostility that can be committed against the group as a whole. Rather than weaken the empire, it would have everyone in an uproar, calling for the blood of the one who attacked them. It would *strengthen* the next Emperor's grip on the Throne. Collectively, these points paint a compelling picture for the Empire's next move. They're preparing for war, and it's likely going to blow up in the Thalmor's pointy snobby faces.

[@gregorysmith1402]

Well if you read ulfrics dossier at the high Elfs party..it will say that they are using him to do exactly what they need without his knowledge. They want the stormcloaks to take out the imperials and so that they can get what they wanted from them in the first place

[@reffa2858]

I understand what the empire is doing but I dont agree with the way they're doing it.

[@RPGTKingpin]

@@reffa2858 What alternative would you suggest, based on the abovementioned theory? What would be the better approach in your mind?

[@reffa2858]

@@RPGTKingpin well I think the emperor escaping from the Whitegold Tower, then taking it back from the Thalmor only to then sign the Whitegold Concordant was a mistake. Especially without consulting the people it would effect the most (Redguards/Nords). I think when they Escaped, they should've regrouped with Skyrim or Hammerfell. True, the Whitegold tower would be contested by the Thalmor (but it was already.) But as we can see, Redguards and the Nords can hold their own against the Thalmor. I think the imperials took the easy route laced with lies, betrayals, and false hope. The funny thing is that both the Thalmor and the Imperial Legion are so arrogant that they believe the other is playing right into their hands. But what gets me is Tulius saying Ulfric is dividing the empire when they themselves were sectioning off parts of it to the Thalmor.

[@RPGTKingpin]

@@reffa2858 If memory serves, there was a good reason for them to push the tower immediately. I don't know the details but I recall that the Thalmor were doing something there magically. And considering their end goal is the literal end of the world, it probably wasn't anything the empire could afford to allow them to do. Time was critical for that counterattack. I do agree that Hammerfell and Skyrim should have been consulted before the signing, but I feel like that might also have been an ultimatum, and while the Empire was exhausted and had no energy to keep the fight going, the Dominion still had more forces and resources to keep up the pressure. So I legitimately think the signing was a desperation move to give the Empire time to recover and rebuild its ranks, because refusing would have ended in a longer, bloodier war that would 100% end in victory for the Dominion. Or at the very least, it would have ended in the destruction of the Empire as a political entity. Any plan that goes "let's fight until we lose, and let our people figure out what to do after we've lost" is not a good plan. Because at that point, the Empire, its provinces, its people and their resources will be so exhausted that they're completely at the Dominion's mercy to do with whatever they wish. Considering it's the *Third* Aldmeri Dominion, speaks of racial superiority, and is willing to purge even other elves [The Wood Elves, for example], I think we can comfortably say these guys are a very blatant Third Reich allegory, complete with the eugenics, ethnic cleansing, probably concentration camps, slavery, and so on. So yeah, I think the Empire made the right call there. It's just unfortunate that it had some consequences for portions of the empire. I don't think the Empire is actually as arrogant as you think. They can't be, really. The Thalmor are literally walking through their territory with impunity. Imprisoning Imperial citizens, torturing and killing them, attacking wanderers on the road if they are suspected of being against the Dominion. Any illusion of arrogance is probably just that; an illusion. Because they know the Thalmor are watching, and their plan hinges on the Empire being able to blindside them. And that's already hard enough with them having to physically recruit men and build up their arsenals, siege weapons, magical artifacts, and so on. As for what Tullius said, I refer back to what I said earlier. The current situation with sections of Hammerfell being surrendered was probably never intended to be permanent. Same for Talos worship. But it was the only way to save the Empire from absolute destruction, so they agreed to it [knowing full well it was temporary and not intending to honour it once they had the ability to do otherwise], with the intention of reconnecting and reversing once they were in a position to fight the war properly.

[@Arwing65]

Great video. I play as a female khajiit treasure hunter and she doesn't choose a side. She's just out there looking for unique weapons and armors, using her dragonborn powers to achieve those goals. She has seen the dossier on Ulfric and finds that to be very interesting information and is always prepared to pack up shop and move on to other regions if things get a bit too heated.

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

Female Khajiit is the best choice.

[@300SonsofOdin]

I find it a little bit shallow that you as the Dragonborn can't just delete the Thalmor from Skyrim. Like kill most of their agents and capture most of their strongholds in Skyrim. I bet this would bring Ulfric and Tulius to the table and maybe even truce between the two could be achived. Imagine: the Empire gains one hell of a commander and a respctable fighting force to kick in some altmeri teeth.

[@chadmonty9967]

I don’t think that would have as big of an impact tho. The Thalmor aren’t just relegated to Skyrim most of their dealings there are by proxy or like you mentioned with agents. Killing all the Thalmor in Skyrim wouldn’t really weaken them enough to get the Empire to change their mind about choosing that moment to launch an offensive.

[@300SonsofOdin]

Well, like evry fighting force or military structure, the Thalmore need officers and comanders to uphold the chain of comand. If we as the Dragonborn eliminate a certain number of them, soldiers and offircers alike, we would plunge the Thalmor in Skyrim into chaos. Since we know the geopolitical situation of the Empire (that is in a state of cold war with the Dominion) we would significantly weaken the Dominions influence in Skyrim, and therefor give the Empire time to either formulate a counter offensive (be it in the form of military might or through the Oculatus in form of a cold war scenario). This could also be politically a good point since the Empire can say: Well, this guy/girl does not work for us. We have nothing to do with them! All the while it could be reason enough for the Stormcloaks to lay their weapons aside and return to the fold of the Empire, since the Empire does not forbid Thalos worship per se, but the entire thing is enforced through the Thalmor even in Skyrim. If Tulius is smart enough (which I strongly belive he is), he would seek out Ulfric and propose either a truce or an allianze, given the state of the Thalmor in Skyrim at that point. This would strengthen the Empire and significantly weaken the Dominions hold in Skyrim, potentialy leading to a massive L for the Dominion.

[@chadmonty9967]

@@300SonsofOdin I mean I agree with most of this but I think the issue is I don’t think Tulius can make major deals like that. 1 because he’s still under orders from his superiors and 2 because if he did he’d be putting the peace at risk if that info ever got out. Also you need to consider whether Ulfric wants to make that deal. To him the Imperial rulers are just puppets of the dominion so I find it unlikely he would reach out for that type of peace deal or if he’d even trust their word because Tulius can easily be replaced by someone who wouldn’t be as friendly. I think a deal would just end up the Imperial government going “hell no” and Ulfric probably wouldn’t even want to make the deal in the first place.

[@300SonsofOdin]

@@chadmonty9967 Well, it really depends on how you spin it. We know that Ulfric is actually ready to talk, as seen when the Dragonborn brings him and Tullius to the table to negotiate a truce. He only has a problem with the Thalmor, as evident when he sees Elenven on the table. This leads me to belive, that Tullius is also ready to talk. His mission, after all, is to bring Skyrim back into the fold of the Empire. And I also don't really think that Tullius has many higher ups, he is a general, after all. And generals tend to be quite high in the food chain. I also don't belive the Empire has general laying around and be like: You know what? Tullius is shit, lets send general Aquilonius the third up there. And while we are at it, let's just order the entire legion stationed in Skyrim to leave as well. This would boad bad for the Empire as a whole, leaving Skyrim undefendet and ready to split from the empire the second there is a chance. So, by eradicating the Thalmor and disrupting their chain of comand the Dragonborn, I would wager the chances of these two factions being at peace is quite good. Another thing the empire could do after the Thalmor are deleted from Skyrim, would be to officially denounce Skyrim as an imperial profince, giving it it's indipendance, while secretly upholding an alliance with them and asking them to come to fight the Thalmor in case of a breakout of war. This scenario, would be the most likely, as seen by the Hammerfell example, where the emperor denounced it, while leaving quite a good chunk of his legions there to fight the dominion. Only they where "discharged" from the legion. As the empire retreated from Hammerfell, they simply happen to forgett a functioning army and supplies there. I mean, it happens to the best, right?

[@chadmonty9967]

@@300SonsofOdin yeah I think I just disagree specifically about Tulius. He might be a general but there’s the emperor, Imperial council and other influential people who probably have sway. So Tulius can’t just do whatever especially with a whole province. Also I don’t see why they wouldn’t have extra generals hanging around. Most countries especially large ones have lots of generals and will sometimes replace them when they aren’t doing well or disobey orders. An example being MacAurther being replaced by Ridgeay in the Korean War when MacAurther was talking shit about Truman and giving some unwanted war advice. Finally I didn’t know about the Imperials intentionally leaving troops in Hammerfell and having a secret deal. I thought those actions were independent of Imperial command?

[@MrHildebrand]

Man I really hate when that vague dossier on Ulfric is a sticking point in an argument. Is he an asset? Yes. Does that mean he is a willing and a knowing asset? No. The Thalmor will try direct contact with Ulfric in a worst case scenario doesn't necessarily mean they have before or have easy access to him. If anything, as an assumption, they would send a delegate/spy who isn't a High Elf and use Ulfric without him knowing it's the Thalmor. All of that controversy aside, let me leave you with a harsh perspective in favor of the Stormcloaks. Now put yourself in their shoes and think about what the Thalmor are "Allowed" to do. Your official reigning government is allowing a foreign power, to kidnap, kill, and torture your countrymen, neighbors, friends, family. Not just allowing, but openly allowing it and you're told to deal with it or be punished by the law. The law that's supposed to be protecting its citizens. There is no reality where something like that would every fly with me. Greater good or not I would never expect anyone to tolerate it, let alone for 30 years. All the talk of racism, war crimes and whatever else. Those are all problems to be dealt with after the immediate threat has been taken care of.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Is there another video or something out there where somebody hones in on the whole “asset” thing? A lot of people are laser focusing on that and I don’t see the confusion around it or how people are misinterpreting my message there - I directly say that it’s unknown how deep his affiliation (whatever that may be) with the Thalmor goes, and I definitely didn’t say (nor do I believe whatsoever) that he is knowing or willing. It would be ridiculous to assume that unless you go the route of, “he hates the Empire so much that he’s willing to do whatever it takes, including supporting the Thalmor” but that’s straight up, absolute hogwash. All Ulfric cares about is Skyrim and her people. I’m not sure why the assumption is being made that I think Ulfric is directly helping the Thalmor. The possibility is definitely there - but I really don’t think that’s the case. But an asset is an asset, man. For whatever reason the Thalmor see Ulfric as useful to them in some capacity - probably because he’s destabilized an entire province. One of the provinces that would prove the most challenging to fight and conquer in future conflict. But as I said in the video, “…remains a possibility” definitely implies that they have before. Especially since they mention he’s “proven uncooperative” about it in the past or whatever. From the sounds of it, they have contacted him directly and it went pretty south - which makes complete sense given who the man is. The crazy thing about this - and the reason I absolutely love discussing this conflict with people - is that I agree with absolutely everything you’re saying. Truly. And at the end of the day, in black and white, I’m still siding with the Empire. Factoring the grey in, I’ll absolutely go Stormcloak if there’s evidence that Ulfric is planning on getting multiple provinces together to hit the Dominion in a way that is smart and isn’t just another conventional war as history has proven that won’t work against them. I’ll jump on anybody’s ship that says they’re going to hit the Thalmor. But until that day, my interest is in peace and not giving the Thalmor an excuse to steamroll the world again. That is the only reason I side with the Empire - and even then, in a roleplay situation, that character (upon winning the war) is immediately lobbying the Empire in secret to do something about the Thalmor because as you said - it’s been 30 years, man. It’s time to make it stop. Everybody is right and wrong at the same time. Everybody’s the good guy and we’re all at eachother’s throats about it. I love it and it’s beautiful storytelling. Thanks for the well worded comment, dude!

[@pwn3ronetwothree]

@@10pointsofslashing One of the most in-depth videos on the topic is actually part of PatricianTV's skyrim retrospective. It's 20 hours long, but the relevant part is just the last hour or so of Part 1 of that video. He goes into a lot of the misconceptions and misinformation about the Civil War, as well as bringing up some interesting cut content.

[@MrHildebrand]

@10pointsofslashing Just some food for thought, the Thalmor are not as powerful as they present themselves to be. They lost a huge portion of their army at the battle of the red ring. By portion, I pretty much mean the majority. Then they lose even more people trying to hold Hammerfell. Also, if you really want to dig into lore, High-elves can not reproduce nearly as fast as the races of man. Rebuilding their army would be an incredibly slow process, but that's a different discussion. I'd argue the empire was in a position during the war to push into Summerset and finish it, albeit at a cost too high worth paying. So, to just give your enemy everything when you were in the position of power is ludacris. The Thalmor are clearly using divide and conquer tactics. To me, they just don't have the raw manpower to fully enforce their will. Signing the white gold concordant might have saved them more than it did the Empire. As you also pointed out, it would seem the Thalmors' primary goals are the towers, not dismantling the Empire. Maybe keeping the peace is a more viable option at the moment, but only because the Thalmor were given 30 years to lick their wounds, but too many people died to just let the Thalmor get everything they wanted.

[@alaskamark4562]

@@10pointsofslashing The "direct contact remains a possibility under extreme circumstances" thing probably refers to like how Elenwen can get to be a part of the peace council during the Season Unending quest. While attending she's making "direct contact" with Ulfric and the negotiations are "extreme circumstances" but it's not like he's taking orders from her, quite the opposite in fact. I see a lot of people online take issue with how Ulfric is outraged to see Elenwen at the start of the negotiations, but if you read the Dossier then you know that Ulfric was "interrogated" by Elenwen during the war and she's the one who tricked him into thinking he got the capital captured. Imagine you're a leader going into one of the most important meetings of your whole life, where you could potentially decide the fate of your entire nation, and then suddenly you're put face-to-face with the person who tortured and psychologically manipulated you, and they're demanding to be a part of the meeting. I'd be pretty pissed too. I think it's really sad, I wouldn't want to be reliving those horrible memories during a critically important negotiation either.

[@martincostasvigliecca8984]

Nah dude, the empire are the Thalmor bitches. And they are just enforcing the Thalmor rules for them. So fuk the empire! @@10pointsofslashing

[@elden_lord22]

I actually once role played a thalmor who goes through the main quest and setting up some "accounts" in solitude for the thalmor but after he found the dossier and then met and spoke to Esbern he then realized that everything he believed was flawed and so turned against the thalmor he realized thoe that tamriel would need to buy time to stand against summerset he was a key agent and knew much about their organization and so he joins the imperial legion tended to his capabilities as dragonborn turning that power against them once more preparing to make his own stand and remove those flaws he now sees

[@carbonmonoxide5052]

The Empire has had 26 years to do something, but they have cowered to the Thalmor. Most of their (human) officers below the rank of General would have been trained in a postwar period, and basically all of their enlisted personnel. On top of this, Cyrodiil is too easy to conquer to make a good seat of the Empire during times of war. The Imperial Isle is easy to defend, but the rest of it is weak. Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell are all considerably easier for the natives to defend. The Illiac Bay would be a much more logical place for the seat of a human empire. Stormcloak Skyrim would result in High Rock being cut off from Cyrodiil, accessible only by ship from Anvil or over foreign land. This would, in time, confine the Empire entirely to Cyrodiil, and create a power vacuum across northwestern Tamriel. Such a vacuum could easily be filled by a new human alliance, a confederation of humans against the Aldmeri Dominion. Cyrodiil could join, but they would no longer be the seat of the the human empire, at the cost of the human empire no longer being able to control non-human lands (besides Orsinium and maybe Morrowind since they hate the Thalmor too).

[@10pointsofslashing]

Mad props to this comment - I just pointed out in another reply that it doesn’t even have to be the Empire that we know now that takes down the Thalmor and the Dominion. It can be some kind of new alliance in Tamriel that moves away from the current Empire’s way of doing things. This is exactly the type of thinking that I hope someone currently in a position of power within the Empire is tossing around. Either way, no matter who takes down the Dominion, I am of the opinion that it absolutely has to happen and there absolutely needs to be reform within the Empire - whether that is a complete dissolution and the beginning of some new kind of governance or just a shift in the way they work right now.

[@turbotortoise7336]

That's an interesting concept: to consider moving the Imperial capital to High Rock or Hammerfell. Would be interesting to come up in Elder Scrolls 6.

[@TheSniper721]

I personally believe that an Empire should work together of humans to take down the Dominion i however believe the current Empire is to weak and to complacent to act as nothing but puppet for the Dominion to how much time has past. I jsut do not belive the current Empire can or rathetr would take the night to them. Now, an independent Skyrim working with other states that broke off from the Empire could work together as a new Empire, a non Cyrodiilic centered Empire. Cyrodiil must learn it can not remain the heartland of humanity as the capital in order to bring the fight to the Dominion. I side with the Stormcloaks because i believe at best the Cyradlic Empire currently is Vichy France relationship at best, as it is one that would never liberate itself. The way forward is for the old Empire to fall and a new Empire to rise. @@10pointsofslashing

[@sulliedpat]

@@10pointsofslashingthe possibility of an international alliance is the determining reason I support the Stormcloaks. You probably know in-game Ulfric is seeking alliances (sent to High Rock). But on the other hand the Empire has burnt bridges with its former colonies. Hammerfell hates the Empire for abandoning them to the Thalmor after the Great War. Morrowind hates the Empire for abandoning them during the Oblivion Crisis (or there abouts) ultimately leading to the Argonian Invasion. At least half of Skyrim now hates the Empire following it violently asserting its entitlement to rule, with the other half of the population grudgingly accepting despite disagreement with certain new laws. I see the Stormcloaks as being a far more viable option for facilitating international cooperation.

[@frederikferguson2571]

Another point about the empire is that Tullius himself state that they may very well start a new war with Thalmor. The empire simply is lickng there wounds and buying themselves time As for the the Thalmor there biggest interests is for the war to keep going (Delphine for all her faults is one of few people who actually understands this as she points it out after you have battled the dragon at Kynnesgrove.) So no matter which side you choose you will have made (albeit a minor ) struck to the Thalmor

[@McHobotheBobo]

The mer may live long lives, but men reproduce more quickly and a productive peace in the Empire should mean future victory

[@frederikferguson2571]

@@McHobotheBobo sp true it the empire may would surely heal quicker of they stopped fighting within their own borders. Weather it actually takes longer for elves to reproduce than it does for humans. Well I have no idea if that's true or not dl the best so the best I can do is take your word for it All this actually makes me wonder if they could end the war by simply explain the things to Ulfric. Thou then again that man is one of of the most stubborn person in the whole game so I obviously doubt it

[@McHobotheBobo]

@@frederikferguson2571 I'm fairly confident they can have the same number of children but it's more spread out over the first ~200 years of mer life. The Thalmor are particularly brutal eugenicists though and their infant mortality is much higher than normal because of it. I suppose it depends on if someone can wield Adamantia or Whote-Gold tower against the power of the Crystal Tower

[@Lonkshi21]

Delphine is trash

[@totalygamingtemplar]

i have to protect whiterun i love those people

[@Chessi_flowarts]

Perfect timing as I am a new player thank you for making this

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey, that’s amazing! I love seeing new people get into the things I’ve been passionate about for so long. I’m jealous of you - the joys of experiencing this world for the first time are absolutely incredible and I wish you all the best in your journey in Skyrim, Tamriel as a whole and beyond. Welcome to one of the best RPG worlds in gaming!

[@totalygamingtemplar]

xbox or pc? you should get some good lore friendly mods that make the vanilla experience so much better, i would love to experience skyrim for the first time with mods

[@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271]

Am jelly of u😢

[@sassageflair257]

On the one hand the two armies are fighting to defend their homes, since the Thalmor would be unhappy with the empire if they allowed Talos worship in Skyrim. On the other hand, the emperor let Hammerfell go to decide its own fate and likely could have done the same with Skyrim. Obviously that would greatly weaken the empire’s influence, however it would prevent needless imperial deaths. All this to say: the stormcloaks fight a necessary war while the imperials fight an unnecessary one.

[@Trelitty11]

Logical choice for the Empire would be to establish relations with Hammerfell again and listen to Ulfric . Joining forces imo seems like the best canonical choice if they go that route

[@a.j.carter2294]

@@Trelitty11My thoughts exactly. If the Medes would have swallowed their pride and worked covertly to foster secret alliances with the races of men instead of using force to keep their young dynasty’s empire intact then they could have avoided these extremely costly rebellions entirely. Why balk at the temporary loss of territory when your heartland and the whole continent is at stake? But I think the Empire’s dead either way.

[@twiddlerat9920]

@@Trelitty11 The empire controls all the wealthy parts of skyrim, I doubt they care too much especially since most of the soldiers they have there are local recruits

[@NamelessKing1597]

​@@Trelitty11 I think they will.

[@jakubkotas3617]

If it was not necesary for the empire to controll skyrim they wouldnt try to put the rebelion against the empire. They lost to the altmer once with hammerfel and skyrim support, if skyrimu and hammerfel were both anti imperial governments the second altmer invasion would be the empires doom for sure.

[@terakhan6656]

Redguards and Nords also have history of elven genocide. The redguards with the 'left-handed elves' of Yokuda, and the nords' ancestors, the atmorans, with the falmer/snow elves. Both also currently carry a great deal of discrimination against elves. So this point could also be the reason for the shots fired at those respective lands.

[@alaskamark4562]

I don't think the "Ulfric is racist" argument holds water. You can play as any species and still join the Stormcloaks, joining as a non-Nord might raise an eyebrow from Galmar but that's about it. As for the Dunmer having to live in the Grey Quarter and Argonians being kept outside of Windhelm, we have to remember that these two peoples fought a very bloody race war against each other. The Dunmer are notorious for enslaving the Argonians (and Men BTW) and the Argonians committed mass murder against even innocent Dunmer and are the reason they're refugees in Skyrim in the first place. I can understand why the Nords wouldn't want to deal with foreigners crap when they have their own problems.

[@juanfisi]

Finally someone said it! Dunmer enslaving other races is never talked about!

[@datboi9648]

It is a game at the end of the day. Could you imagine a quest being blocked to you for your race.

[@juanfisi]

@@datboi9648 That would be awesome, you would have to create different characters for different quests, would be really immersive and would give players more insentive to experiment with other races.

[@deantrail6789]

​@@datboi9648 That actually sounds cool.

[@damianmorningstar3150]

@@datboi9648yup there are games that do it

[@eugenie4075]

Two things, maybe a few more: 1. Tullius speaks about attacking the Thalmor after the war is finished, so those plans are also to be taken into account for the decision, not just as a hypothetical 2. The Nords are doing what the Redguards did, albeit a more violent separation from the empire, but still. If the Imperials could let go of Hammerfell, why now put up a fight against the Nords when they should be dedicating resources to push back the Thalmor? 3. I’ve always sided with stormcloaks, and always will. The forceful oppression of Skyrim will not go unpunished. The Thalmor are hunting Talos worshippers and slaughtering them like pigs, while the Empire says “eh just let it happen, we’ll do something about it later.” 4. Talos worship and Dovahkiin go hand in hand. Shor, Talos, Shezar, and Shezarines. Long story short, Shor is Shezar is Talos is you, all beings called Shezarines. You really gonna side with the people killing your fanbase? Not cool 5. The Thalmor want the war to continue because they can do their shady stuff in private with all of their enemies’ resources being focused on a war that hardly involves them. They know once the war is over, either way, they’ll be center stage again. 6. I’ve heard so many of my friends talk about the Ulfric interrogation in their arguments. I haven’t been up on the lore in half a decade but last I recall, the beliefs they instilled were what caused this war to explode, and they wanted it to happen to further weaken the Empire for more devious plans to come to fruition. Either way, it’s exactly what happens. Less Nords or less Imperials, it’s a win win, and on top of that they get a time cushion to concoct and enact more of their strategy for world domination. I’d assume the further contact bit is to give him strategic intel in case the empire is close to winning, just to perpetuate the war. They already can drop off intel on Tullius’s desk without raising suspicion so there’s no need for it to be in writing in the game. 7. I’ve seen other comments here but I’ll include it anyway; Ulfric is not the big mean racist you may think he is. He gave a section of his city to Dunmer refugees, the Argonians aren’t allowed in because they made the Refugees, and likely would create a conflict in his city. Any race (idk if altmer can lmao never played as one) can join his side and buy the house in Windhelm. Several elves have homes outside the Grey Quarter. He’d stop that process obviously if he truly was. He commends the player if they’re not a Nord for joining his side and fighting for the liberation of Skyrim, even though you’re not originally from Skyrim. I always play Khajiit, so I’ve heard it a million times. Everything I’ve witnessed Ulfric do has a cause. Distrust of altmer comes from the dominion. Argonian ban comes from Dunmer citizens’ protection. He constantly speaks about “Skyrim and her people” -very inclusive for a racist don’t ya think? Other Nords say “Skyrim is for the Nords” mid fight, which even then doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a racial attack, more of a get-out-of-my-home-empire kind of jab. I think that’s everything but that’s why I side with the Stormcloaks, I could never be friendly-even remotely- with the Thalmor

[@infebris]

the empire isn't saying "we'll deal with it later" for no reason. you really thinka ragtag group of rebels stands a chance against the full force of the empire let alone the thalmor? the empire is playing the long game while the thalmor get comfortable, in the end the stormcloaks and the empire will have to team up at some point to defeat the thalmor.

[@thomasmasson7905]

​​@@infebrisskyrim is depicted in the lore as one of the most powerful provinces in tamriel. We must differenciate in-game size and in-lore size. Skyrim is ,lorewize, huge in territory and demography and has some of the most fearsome warrior on the continent. The empire priginate from tiber septim (which is a nord) and the nords of skyrim going on a rampage and conquering more than half of the continent. Altough I have to admit that it was many eras ago, it is important to remember that the only one describing nord warior as a "ragtag bunch of rebels" are the imperials during the civil war. With hammerfell out of the way, a unified skyrim do stand a chance aganst the full might of the empire Fun gimmic (completely out of lore) if you put 20 nord warrior against 20 imperial or 20 thalmor justiciar (15 soldier + 5 mages) in game via mod of cpnsole command, nord will win most of the time

[@domingokenner5922]

Just started playing this again. Been awhile since I did the imperial quest for the civil war. This video was awesome dude

[@acep3452]

Thank you, the story of the thalmor is greatly appreciated

[@durandol]

You know, seeing as how we are.. you know, the *DRAGONBORN*, shouldn't we be the ones on the throne? Being of the dragon blood, we would have the most legitimate claim to it?

[@crstph]

thrones aren’t just handed to people; if you want to be on the throne, you need to have the claim, power, and desire to take it. the real reason blood claims/“divine right of kings” usually hold water is bc inherited power usually means the blood relative of the last ruler is the person with the most power to hold onto it. does the dragonborn have combat power, and maybe a claim? sure. everything else…

[@rcbecker1]

If you follow the Alessian Rules which the empire developed from states that the Emperor has to carry the Dragon Blood which ties to the amulet protecting Tameil from Oblivion. This is why the current Emperor is seen as Illegitimate Emperor by many. The Grey beards recognize you as the new dragon of the north which is the title moving you in that direction. But Bethesda doesn't want a game where you fight the wars and then move to become the next Emperor with the support of the citizens who still want the old ways. They want it about the Civil War and the Thalmor. Not about you being the reincarnation of Talos or any other depending on you standing on that issue. Where I was disappointed is the Nord's and their people don't see what's right in front of them. Think about it you kill a dragon and save the town and the people just walk away with no knowledge of what just happened then five minutes later its back to who are you and why should I care.

[@miles9462]

My guy, pushing the “ulfric is a racist” line when his stance is quite literally Skyrim, home of the Nords, should be FOR Nords, is idiotic. It’s their ancestral land. The treatment of the Dunmer in Windhelm isn’t even necessarily about racial supremacy; it’s a group of refugees who’ve FAR overstayed their welcome. Red mountain erupted how many decades ago? Beyond that, after being welcomed in, and given Solstheim, the Dunmer are repaying the hospitality with cold indifference to the plight of the Nords. That’s even ignoring the FACT that Dunmer are by and large incredibly racist and far from personable. Ulfric just wants what’s best for his people. Going “he’s a racist asshole” ignores everything about the situation of outsiders in Skyrim. Also; since hammer fell on its own was able to body the Thalmor, the empire could have won had they marshaled their forces correctly. They didn’t. The empire is not suited to fight the elves.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Hey man, I definitely didn’t communicate it as well as I could have in the video - the characters that I built that I was describing at the end there believe that Ulfric is racist. I, personally, do not. I talked about it and explained more on that in the pinned comment - I think that Bethesda threw just enough questionable things into the mix to intentionally make people lean towards “Ulfric is a racist” but I really don’t think he is. If he is, he’s really bad at being one. As far as Hammerfell goes, somebody else in the thread brought up how while they were able to drive out the Dominion, they were only able to do so after the Dominion had been presumably exhausted from the war with the Empire. Even if fatigue has nothing to do with it, it may have been an “invading Russia in the winter” type thing and Hammerfell won based on familiarity with their geography alone. All that said, I agree, the Empire is not suited to take on the Thalmor - conventionally. But I also don’t feel that Skyrim on its own or even allied with Hammerfell can take on the whole of the Dominion either. I think it’s going to take a unified Empire (or some new alliance of all of Tamriel’s forces) acting quietly and behind the scenes in a more unconventional, guerrilla approach.

[@KarvenDizarm]

My brother in Lorkhan, Nords have commited two/three genocides during their time in Skyrim, they are not the ones to talk about ancestral lands. Also dunmer in Skyrim are not the same as Dunmer in Vvardenfel and are not really racist. Also also it's stated by Brunwulf, Ulfric's friend and war hero that he "doesn't care about outsiders".

[@jakubkotas3617]

Yea sure so by your point, the nords should pack their shit and invite falmer back. Nice

[@wyvernslayer4530]

​@KarvenDizarm I don't remember the nords actually starting it though. The nords just wanted to exist

[@KarvenDizarm]

@@wyvernslayer4530 1) So do the dunmer and the argonians, what's your point? 2) While the circumstances of Nord's arrival to tamriel are not 100% clear, they did genocide reachmen and falmers. I refuse to believe that there was no other way to deal with the situation

[@Cybernaut76]

You are not absolutely correct. I mean if I remember correct, Tullius at one point of the game whispers to the dragonborns ear something implying the Empire is not as loyal to Thalmor or The White Gold Concordat as it seems on the surface. Like General Tullius knew something about possibly up and coming second round of The Great War an ordinary Imperial grunt does not. I was left with the impression that at least General Tullius, perhaps even Emperor Titus Mede, is looking for an opportunity to strike a dagger in Thalmors back. (If they are wise, they will refrain from doing so while Skyrim Civil War is still ongoing).

[@infebris]

they are, it is not implied it is literally stated in the game that they will strike against the thalmor so you are correct

[@naji_aka_Tracey]

Great, insightful video 👍🏻

[@ryanhillbom792]

Something I actually love about this questline is the very fact that it has the moral gray that cones with war that the people who fight in war are heroes fighting for their cause, it's stuff like this that makes me love a show like star war's the clone war's because noone is the bad guy they are just unknowing puppets of the sith

[@totalygamingtemplar]

saving whiterun is not gray for me but i see your point

[@infebris]

@@totalygamingtemplarfr i hate anyone who plays stormcloak purely for the fact that they destroy whiterun and imprison jarl balgruuf

[@GhenTuongHB]

All hail to Ulfric! You are the High King! In your great honor we drink and we sing.

[@gamer47e17]

I can't say it's the same for everyone, but it feels like most of the reasons people join the Stormcloaks are very shallow and not well thought out. 1. The imperials were going to execute you. Yeah, thats a good reason to dislike the imperials, but they weren't taking any chances, they just captured their number 1 enemy and they were going to put down the rebellion then and there. They didn't know if you were a rebel or not, but they couldn't take that risk. 2. The empire bans Talos worship. This is only half valid, because it's established that before the Stormcloaks began fucking things up, Talos worship was really only banned on paper. It was pretty common to still worship Talos, just in private, hell even in whiterun theres the annoying loud ass preacher. 3. The Empire works for the Thalmor. Yes but Tullius reveals, or at least hints, that a unified empire is needed to finally attack and defeat the Thalmor, and they can't do that with a hostile power in the north. 4. Ulfric won the duel fair and square. No he didn't, sure using the voice might not be 'against the rules', but thats like agreeing to fight, both of you pull up your fists, then you suddenly shoot the guy. 5. Skyrim is for the nords, the imperials can fuck off. Skyrim belonged to the snow elves and dwemer first, but the snow elves were genocided and the dwemer vanished. Plus, racism is bad, and a lot of the stormcloaks mean it when they say skyrim is for the NORDS. 6. The Stormcloaks are cooler/the idea of fighting the empire as a rebellion is cool. Personal opinion, so kind of meh. 7. Ulfric is a great guy. No he isn't. He can barely run his city, barely run the rebellion, gets saved by luck, is power hungry, and is shown to not be a great tactician. He's petty, vengeful, and short sighted. 8. The Dominion wouldn't be able to beat Skyrim without heavy losses so they won't try/will lose. That's untrue. The Dominion would be more than happy ot just cleanse Skyrim. They won't spare anyone, they'll turn it into the Tamriel version of a crater. It'd be a headache to do coordinate that, but they'd have easy access through the Empire.

[@RunnelsESO]

Great concept! Love me some Skyrim

[@stump4522]

Short Answer: Stormcloak are the good guys. Originally the bad guy was supposedly be Uriel Septim V. He control dragon but they scrap it for Alduin.

[@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle]

We could have had an Septim antagonist?!?! DUDE THAT WOULD BE SO FUCKING COOL AND I AM A EMPIRE DICK RIDER SAYING THAT HOLY SHIT, NOW I WANT A SEPTIM VILLAIN FUCK

[@90snetworkproductions79]

Yeah, having the Emperor discover some kind of gimmick-ey mcguffin and now he has an army of Dragons, seeking to conquer the world already happened in the lore with the first Tiber Septim. He found the Numidium, which crushed everything/everyone it fought until everyone surrendered. So yeah, I'm kinda glad that got scrapped. Doesn't mean it won't happen through the Dragonborn and the 'Bend Will' shout, though. Gonna have to fondle some tentacles to get Herma Mora to buff it to Miraak levels, tho, with effects lasting a whole night/day.

[@Laura.Cynthia]

It’s hard to believe that he’ll do anything beneficial for Skyrim when he fails the Waiter Test: "If someone is nice to you but rude to the waiter, they are not a nice person." Ulfric cares nothing for racial minorities, the poor, former prisoners, etc. They are not his base. Compare him to someone like, say, Balgruuf of Whiterun, and you can see that Ulfric isn’t even marginally a good ruler.

[@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle]

@@Laura.Cynthia Balgruuf should be the high king, ngl, I like thst guy

[@MFenix206]

@@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle he is a nice guy, but too weak and indecisive.

[@KarmatheCorgi]

As a Khajiit it is difficult to choose... on the one hand I see Khajiit are not trusted in these lands. With their caravans being forced to stay outside of the cities, much like real life travelers. Plus, the Aldemeri DID supposedly bring back the moons, which would have been seen as "saving the world" in the eyes of the Khajiit. Nords as a whole seem very distrusting of Khajiit... which may or may not be unfounded as Khajiit are indeed excellent thieves and crafty folk. The amount of hoops this one has to jump through to gain the trust of many Jarls and have a home is frustrating indeed, when one's brothers and sisters can not have the same.

[@christinaedwards5084]

My khajit just wants revenge indiscriminately. Joined the dark brotherhood.

[@wyvernslayer4530]

Well the khajiit sell skooma that's why. It's forbidden in skyrim and yet they sell it.

[@KarmatheCorgi]

@wyvernslayer4530 Is not Khajiits fault the rest of you are... what was it again? Milk drinkers. 🥛

[@infebris]

@@wyvernslayer4530they sell it for their religion, but yeah it is a drug so whatever i guess

[@jamesstrickland517]

I found this great as one of my major campaigns as the Dragonborn is my total decimation of the Thalmor fort next to the vampire fortress Volkihar as well as the complete overrun of the Thalmor Embassy.

[@landonwiese6850]

“There is no such thing as a worthy cause in a civil war.” Skyrim’s message about that is unsaid, but clear.

[@bloodoftheunicorns2621]

I always thought the joining the stormcloaks was the correct answer. 1. If you join them you get to walk in the footsteps of Tiber Septim. He is the storm crown and you are the storm blade. 3. According to the law of Skyrim, he is the true high king, even if no one else wants to admit it. 4. All the political factions are guilty of racism, classism, torture and religious discrimination…sometimes. 5. Ulfric isn’t a double agent. He is an asset as long as he neither wins or loses the world. If he wins Skyrim is united and they will be driven out.

[@dutchpatriot17]

1. Tiber Septim fought to create the Empire. Destroying the Empire he founded is not stepping in his footsteps. 2. Ulfric is not the true High King. He murdered the previous one and refuses to let the Moot meet. 3. Most, yes. But not the Legion - definitely not to the extend Ulfric is. 4. His status as an asset has nothing to do with the civil war.

[@bloodoftheunicorns2621]

@@dutchpatriot17 1. Ulfric is fighting for the sovereignty of Skyrim and to make himself high king. General Talos Stormcrown fought to steal the sovereignty of other kingdoms to make himself emperor. Protecting what Talos built isn’t the same as walking in his footsteps. The stormcrown wasn’t a builder but a conqueror. 2. Ulfric is the true king because he defeated the previous king in a duel, for the ruler ship of Skyrim. He broke no rules in defeating the previous king, the shout was legally allowed, not that he needed it. The moot was trying to illegally make the previous Kings wife, the high queen. When her husband died, he and his family lost any claim to the throne. 3. If we look at the cities in Skyrim under the control/allied with the empire we see clear signs of racism, like how the khajiit can’t enter many cities. If you played oblivion, you would’ve known that there was lots of racial tension between different groups like the khajiit and argonian. 4. The Thalmor fear a victory for Ulfric as much as they do for the empire. Their dream is for the civil war to go on until they are ready for the next Great War. If either side wins, the Thalmor are likely to lose.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@bloodoftheunicorns2621 1. Talos was prophesied to unite Tamriel, Ulfric was not. Ulfric literally does the opposite of what Talos did - destroy the Empire. 2. Murdering the previous High King does not make you the High King. Unsure where this baseless narrative comes from. Also, using the Voice for anything other than veneration of the gods is blasphemy, and the conditions under which the duel took place already made it illegitimate. 3. Khajiit aren't barred from entering any cities, only the caravans are because they deal in skooma. It has nothing to do with race. The fact that you draw this conclusion shows either bad faith or ignorance. If you want to talk about racism you should look at Ulfric's treatment of the Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm. 4. The Thalmor do not fear the Stormcloaks, who struggle to merely halt the worst the Empire has to toss against them. They outright state an Imperial victory harms them, a Stormcloak victory is only to be avoided because it'd harm the Empire less than an ongoing war in the long run.

[@bloodoftheunicorns2621]

@@dutchpatriot17 1. Ulfric and Talos did the same thing declared war. Saying that one was prophesied does not make it any better. If we’re being honest, Talos was a power hungry warlord. He conquered people because he could Talos operated by might makes right. Ulfric can at least say he’s doing it for his people. 2. A challenge of rule in the "Old Nord Way" and that Torygg accepted the challenge. The duel was legal and to the death or surrender. Using the voice is not illegal in Skyrim, the grey beards have a tradition of only using it for worship. A tradition that is only known to them. Ulfric didn’t murder Torygg, he beat him in a legal dual using legal methods. Also, yes, the old way of challenging one to a dual is still a legal practice in Skyrim, but no one really uses it. 3. Khajiit are restricted from entering some cities, because they are believed to be drug dealers, thieves and bandits. Applying negative behaviors to an entire group of people is a definition of racism. Ulfric did nothing to the dark elves or argonians, it was some of the local Nords who caused problems for them. 4. The Thalmor are afraid of the civil war ending early. If Ulfric win he will have a united Skyrim and will declare war on them. If the Empire wins, they will have a united empire and will declare war on them. The red guards will naturally declare war as well because they hate them. The wood elves will betray them at the first opportunity because they hate them. If it ends early they are in trouble!

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@bloodoftheunicorns2621 1. Ulfric's not doing it for the people, anyone with eyes can see this. He uses everything as a smokescreen to get the throne. Talos had divine fervor and their prophecy, Ulfric has nothing. 2. There is zero proof that murdering the High King makes you the next High King. Literally nobody claims this is how it works. Using the Voice for anything other than veneration of the gods is blasphemy and has been for the past 3000+ years. 3. Khajiit aren't barred, Khajiit caravans are. Proof is in the fact that we, as a Khajiit, aren't barred entry. Ulfric literally wrote a decree forcing the Argonians outside of the city walls and forces the Dunmer into a slum. 4. The Stormcloaks do not pose a threat to the Dominion. As said, they're barely capable of halting the worst the Empire has to toss their way.

[@AGuyNamedRaf]

From an RP standpoint, during the Helgen attack the imperial soldiers and Tullius were trying to get everyone including prisoners to safety. The stormcloaks, especially Ulfric, tried to escape to save their own skins. I usually play characters than can put aside their personal grievances, including almost getting executed, aside if it means they can save civilians.

[@infebris]

the imperials definitely have more honor than the stormcloaks, thats for sure

[@thomasmasson7905]

Bruh did you forgot about the whole "who cares of he's not on the list" thing? And about ralof making sure you get to the tower allright and guiding you to the keep? The stormcloak couldn't follow you because they avoided direct contact with the imperials

[@t-d0ggofficial540]

Both sides have good reasons to join. That was Bethesdas point. That’s why we are STILL talking about this story 13 years later. It’s incredible if you ask me. Whoever wrote that story NEEDS to be proud of themselves. They DEFINITELY did everything a storyline writer is supposed to do. THAT is why Skyrim is Bethesdas BEST GAME hands down if you say it’s not you never actually played Skyrim. Personally I’m a stormcloak myself, because I WILL NOT be a thalmor bitch. Empire is weak and NOT the same empire as it was in the 1st and 2nd era. I will fight for something that means more than septims and wealth. And too much diplomacy in the empire for me. I’m not fighting for politics I’m fighting for my homeland. Since I play as a Nord almost every single time.

[@DillonDees]

This video is a straight banger.

[@warnockhowell]

thank you for breaking this whole thing down for people like me who enjoy the games but don’t understand/catch all of the smaller story points i understand the different points of view, but personally would side with the stormcloaks, as the thought of natives fighting for their land/freedom is a powerful thought, and the idea of personal freedoms are something that i find important, though i completely understand the empire, and do think they would be better in the long run

[@Cosmosdestructor]

Every RPG game I play where I get to create my own character, I play the same character. A true neutral, self-serving man who will do whatever benefits him the most, whether it’s good or evil, legal or illegal.

[@carlosfigueredo5682]

I always do the same the first time, a “main” run. But then in later playthrough I will constrain myself and role play something else

[@ericjimmerson3044]

Sounds boring

[@carlosfigueredo5682]

@@ericjimmerson3044 hence the variability in other playthroughs. But this method lets you do anything in the game without breaking immersion or character. It’s the “normal” run.

[@garlicg4532]

regarding your other nations being inspried to rebel, im not really sure which nations you mean? The only province left in the empire is high rock, other than cyrodiil of course

[@dravenwolvesbarrow5193]

Nice to see someone else can see the similarities between the Thalmor and the 3rd. They are crazy similar to the gestapo.

[@paragon_gaming]

I think a large questline in the next game should be the player character uniting Tamriel and taking the fight to the Thalmor.

[@PsychicAlchemy]

Personally I side with the Stormcloaks, but either side that defeats the Thalmor is fine by me. My guess for canon is that both Ulfric and Tullius die in the end, and the Dragonborn unites the two to take back Cyrodiil and become a new emperor.

[@infebris]

i personally think the canon ending would be exactly that but the dragonborn becoming the new emperor after his extremely unfortunate death, reinstating the empire of the dragonborns

[@TheMoinomedian]

No matter the Elder Scrolls game I always play Imperial, but over the years I've considered the Stormcloaks to be the right path. I'm a Colovian Stormcloak for life.

[@viyudobra9628]

I'm doing my first ever run of Skyrim (i finally grew and am able to buy my own games lol) And i really can see your point, but my game character is actually not caring that much about any side, as long as i get paid im helping anyone. So i think my character is gonna stand with whoever treats him the best at the end

[@merillerobichaux3994]

I played as a Thalmor night blade it was fun.

[@Raganui]

I don't understand how The Empire was getting it's ass kicked in so much that they had to do the White Gold Concordat but Hammerfell by itself kicked the Dominion's ass and there are apparently similar stories elsewhere. Anyways, from what I understand, the whole civil war is a lot of 'people doing dumb things and being manipulated into doing dumb things' that starts it.

[@NamelessKing1597]

Less land to protect, and the land is arid so the Dominion was probably just like "not worth it" and left. Also the Redguards are notorious for using guerilla tactics and having the only naval force capable of going toe to toe with the Aldmeri Navy while the legionaires are a large standing army that specialises in more conventional warfare.

[@what4521]

And don't forget one li-i-i-itle thing : redguards fought Dominion forces AFTER they've suffered heavy casualties in the war with the Empire, and had unofficial help from imperials with "former legionaries" going to Hammerfell to help them fight.

[@michaeltelson9798]

Ulfric also doesn’t follow the tenets of Jurgen Windcaller. Using the Thu’um in a duel is one of the cardinal sins by Jurgen as well as using it for military purposes. Jurgen came to those rules after the Nords lost the Battle of Red Mountain. He believed that the Aedra left them to their fate for misusing the Thu’um. Yes, there are many tales about great Nordic tales using the Thu’um but that all changed with Jurgen. Just reread the 10 stops up to High Hrothgard.

[@Samthebritishgent]

Mostly because of the orb of verminia. That’s gone now and the empires much stronger. The dominion has no chance this time

[@fligy39]

Put it this way: if you attack an empire and can get at its capital, you bring a full army and your best people to lead it. You don't do the same for a smaller province. On top of this, add the fact that Cyrodiil was defended by a mixed army of races from all over Tamriel, while Hammerfell was defended by an army of Redguards in their home turf where their power is greatest. It's sort of like, during WWII, attacking France vs attacking Russia in the middle of winter, only in this scenario, Russians have weird snow magic that their homeland is perfect for.

[@futurewario9591]

THE STORMCLOAKS ARE THE GOOD GUYS! TALOS BLESS ULFRIC!

[@juanfisi]

Hail brother!

[@Barmaglott17]

Lmao.

[@TheMeteoDragoon]

I remember that my last character I played full of through skyrim was a decendent of the Septim that disappeared on Akavir. When he returned to the Cyrodiil since the Septim Dynasty was no longer a thing He joined the Imperial Legion and snuck into the Dark Brotherhood to take out the Emperor who signed the Concordat then reunite the empire against the Thalmor revealing that the Septim family will oppose the Thalmor's plans.

[@johann323]

The idea they had some grand plan gives a new view to the Mages College questline

[@billymiles6870]

I think Bethesda is going to have the Stormcloaks win the Civil War. Just my feeling.

[@10pointsofslashing]

If they do confirm a canon victor, I 100% agree with you. Stormcloak victory creates the most immediate opportunity for additional conflict with the Thalmor. If the next game has anything to do with fighting the Thalmor, I’d wager it takes place shortly after Skyrim and that the canon victor was the Stormcloaks

[@JDWMotivation1]

I agree 👍💯 with you sir I'm a die hard imperial

[@Direwolvesbane2393]

Would have been cool if after storming the oppositions capitol they had the thalmor invade. Not only could it help give a clearer picture on the next game but, depending on when the thalmor strike could possibly see you teaming up with the opposition and getting to know them better

[@Mustafa-yt9gl]

Let’s goo 🎉🎉🎉🎉 I’m your 420th subscriber 😂

[@SHODAN-TriOptimum]

It’s not the imperials. And especially not the fucking high elves. Sure there’s issues with the nords, but you absolutely cannot defend the actions of the empire here and you can absolutely not blame the Nords for resisting the imperials. Like yeah, there have been some unsavoury attitudes towards outsiders by the Nords, but that is to be expected when outside forces ban worship of your god and impose rules on your region after you win a war for them. And yes, the Nords won together with the redguards. The empire might have lost but Skyrim remained untouched. And they were willing to fight the high elves until the end. There is no other way to put it besides the empire betraying the Nords, and the Nords acting as can only be expected.

[@vukodlak3962]

Yeah Skyrim remained untouched because Cyrodill burned. It wasn't the strength of the Nords that kept skyrim safe. It was The Imperial Legion.

[@SHODAN-TriOptimum]

@@vukodlak3962 no, the fuck it wasn’t. At best you can say it’s simple geography, but ultimately that’s the burden of the empire to bear, not Skyrim. My whole point was that the stormcloaks are justified in their actions. And even if there was any merit to what you said that would still be the case. But there isn’t. Surrendering to the elves after being victorious and letting another province, that fought and won btw, take the burden of a treaty is ridiculously stupid. Never-mind that it’s entirely unjustifiable to the point where it is no longer just an issue in the game and just Bethesda’s writing that is absolute rubbish.

[@sabnock31]

Ban on Talos worship was started being enforced only after Empire broke the treaty terms. And they broke them because Hrolfdir promised Ulfric free worship for the help in taking Markarth from Reachmen. Then Ulfric bunkered down in Markarth when Empire legions came to resolve the situation and wouldn't let anyone in until Empire allowed free worship of Talos. Which gave Thalmor leverage to invite their forces into Skyrim and oversee and enforce the treaty.

[@SHODAN-TriOptimum]

@@sabnock31 but the treaty was the issue to begin with. The empire had no right to sign it and the only acceptable reason for them to do so writing wise, is that they decided a war with Skyrim is preferable to the continued war against the elves. But the empire itself is in the wrong, both morally and politically. The fact that this treaty was signed gives the Nords a valid casus belli, whereas the empire has absolutely none. Worst of all, it sets up to have the high elves to have an actual, exploitable casus belli against the empire. Which they use as you described, with the purpose of forcing a war between their two allied enemies. And I’m sorry to say this, but the reason why there’s this misunderstanding about right and wrong here has to do with people misunderstanding the authority of the empire, the provinces, and sovereignty. The empire might count itself as the main force of Tamriel, but each single province has sovereignty, with its own laws and rulers. The empire cannot possibly have any say in what any other province can and cannot worship. This decree is absolutely meaningless as far as the actual authority of the emperor goes, and can only be enforced with war. In which case, every other province would and should not only abandon the empire, but prepare for a war against them, if not outright ally together against them. This is not the United States, these are, effectively, different countries whose allegiance to the empire is not set in stone. “The thalmor are the true enemy” is an actually insane position if used to justify this nonsense. The only thing you can blame them for in this scenario, are their ridiculous demands for a treaty. Which are valid, in the sense that a demand like this should be read akin to stating that you want to continue the war. From their perspective, this treaty is better than a military victory at that point in time. It’s not purely bad writing, but when you consider everything, the main issue for Tamriel is that the empire is lead by complete morons. I mean feel free to disagree, but please explain to me why, because I really don’t think I am wrong here?

[@vukodlak3962]

@@SHODAN-TriOptimum Here's fact stated in game. Everyone in Skyrim was free to safely worship Talos in their own homes without fear of arrest because The Empire did not start enforcing the treaty until after Ulfric started making waves. He forced the Empire into the position where they had to enforce the treaty. He made things worse for Talos worshipers. You also completely ignore the fact that Cyrodiil was in ruins. And continuing the war would have meet the people of Cyrodiil would continue to suffer while Skyrim remained safe. The stormcloaks whine about the blood they spilled during the war while ignoring the blood Cyrodill spilled. The Empire wasn't standing on the beaches of the Summerset Isles they had barely driven the Thalmor out, that wasn't a victory it was a stalemate. Its a EMPIRE the ruling Government has EVERY RIGHT to sign a treaty and enforce laws on its provinces you think an Empire ruled by a Emperor is somehow less restrictive then a democratic government? Furthermore the MAJORITY of Skyrim is pro-imperial. If you look at the break down of the holds, Four are pro-empire, four are pro-stormcloak. (Whiterun being neutral and its population split) but one of Ulfrics allies is Winterhold which is basically empty after the great collapse. The Stormcloaks aren't killing Legions sent up from the south. He's killing fellow natives to Skyrim. Tullius complains he could end the war quickly if he got reinforcements from Cyrodill but the Empire won't pull troops off the boarder with the Thalmor. And Ulfric won't attack Solitude if the Emperor is there because he doesn't want a war with Cyrodill. So Ulfric's ENTIRE rebellion depends on on the fact Cyrodill can't bring its full force to bear against him due to the threat of the Dominion. Everyone agrees its only a matter of time until The Great War resumes which would have lifted the ban on Talos worship anyway. But Ulfric seems to think that after barely defeating his OWN province just to take control of it. He can somehow stand up the Dominion.

[@milward78]

interesting where you brought up on screen that talos could have been atmoran, but mistake me if I'm wrong but isn't just what the nords were originally called?

[@matiasvonbischhoffshausen1307]

The Atmorans are the race from which all the human races originated, if I remember correctly. They came from Atmora, a continent to the north of Tamriel, which is apparently suffering through a seemingly eternal winter

[@milward78]

@@matiasvonbischhoffshausen1307 i disagrees with the first line cause redguards come from yokoda before it was sunk in to sea, bretons are meant to be a hybrid species between the heartland elves and early nords but imperials I don't remember hearing where they orginally can from expect that they were always in cyridil (apologize for bad spelling)

[@matiasvonbischhoffshausen1307]

@@milward78 Youu're right, I forgot about Yokuda and the Bretons' origins. According to the Lore page about Imperials, they come from a race called the Nedes, whose origin is largely debated, while Nords come from the Atmorans, who had to leave Atmora because of civil wars and a "freezing" that turned the land inhospitable. Returning to the topic of Tiber Septim, I had heard he was a nede, but I don't know much about the lore

[@milward78]

@@matiasvonbischhoffshausen1307 yeah I'd heard of the early nede and how they were enslaved by the heartland elves but other than that not heard anything else

[@milward78]

@@matiasvonbischhoffshausen1307 tiber septium a nede? I heard he was a nord and a theory that he could of been a breton, but I not heard that he could be a nede? There is so much controversie around tiber septium

[@PowerfulRift]

Spot on!

[@BlackJar72]

One thing that became obvious to me after player through the civil war on each side, is that both sides were carefully designed to morally equivocal even to the point of mirroring each other in a point by point way.

[@ElBamfo]

If hammerfell could win their fight against the dominion I think Skyrim has a good shot on its own without the empire's help. To unite Skyrim against the Thalmor I Think the best is siding with the stormcloaks. An imperial victory would only make everyone complacent to the Thalmor and small rebellions would be quelled easily.

[@firenze6478]

Yeah, how can the empire rebuild when their enemies are given free reign over their territories to create unrest and sow chaos with the empire’s own reluctant aid?

[@stoonersan2707]

Hammerfell repelled an occupying force, without a strong third party to enforce Hammerfell's claim to independence then the Thalmor will just come back with greater numbers and the empire can't do anything about it without fighting the guys who just kicked their ass. If Skyrim also rebels, then you've got three bilateral allies maybe fighting the Thalmor instead of a unified force. Meaning even if all three could play nice, it will be easier than last time for the Thalmor to win, because the Thalmor can now create doubt which will gnaw away at them from the inside, they won't communicate with each other as much as they should, they won't share resources as effectively and it's harder to bring their full might to bear when the time comes for the decisive battle. They'll all try to hold something back so they can be top dog when their fight with the Altmer is done. All that said on a moral level I'm with the Stormcloaks, I just think they should break away after they beat the tar out of those nasty little high elves.

[@firenze6478]

@@stoonersan2707 the problem is that the empire is allowing the thalmor free reign to cause as much civil unrest as possible further weakening their hold. Also, cyridol as good as won the war, but would have lost the capital, so they threw their other territories under the bus to save themselves. They defeated the thalmor’s main invasion force and had their general captive yet signed a full surrender treaty that gave the elves everything they needed to ensure the empire couldn’t rebuild

[@stoonersan2707]

@@firenze6478 I see your point, but if I were the empire I'd rebuild in secret for as long as possible before breaking the treaty and going full ham on them. A treaty only lasts as long as you can enforce it after all. Losing fighters to a civil war in a province only encourages other provinces to break away. Also if I recall correctly high elves reproduce slower so if I were the empire I'd wait maybe 20 years before bearing my fangs.

[@firenze6478]

@@stoonersan2707 but what’s to stop the thalmor from creating another ulfric? They can kidnap and torture people freely, it wouldn’t be hard for them to create enough civil unrest for another rebellion of fed up nords to rise up seeking freedom. Also, what’s to stop the elves from breaking the contract themselves?

[@ashliferris]

Do you get to the cloud district very often?

[@KarmatheCorgi]

Oh what am I saying, of course you don't

[@xPhisch]

*quicksaves*

[@totalygamingtemplar]

*pulls out empty black soul gem*

[@itsnevertoolatetodotherigh3271]

This game for me is like a once in a lifetime thing, after 10+ years yet we still here... I really hope the es6 will be more than what Skyrim has been, whenever they decide to release it hopefully in our lifetime

[@davidnoel9355]

If I choose a side at all, I normally choose the Imperials for the reasons you listed. BUT most of the time, I choose neither and go the third route of making them sit down at the negotiation table in High Hrothgar. I kick out the Thalmor from the negotiations, make Ulric and Tulius come to a peace agreement, then get on with my business of saving the world and wiping out any Thalmor I come across.

[@GreybeardBiker1]

Interesting video, but my problem with an Imperial victory is that the Empire has already bent over for the Aldmeri Dominion, what's to keep that from happening again?

[@eidoneverchoosen1171]

That only haopen because the empire was exhausted. The emperor chose to talk instead of back hammerfall. Had he done so the war yes wpuld leave the empire weaken from exhaustion but stronger because the thalmor would ve outright crippled they would not be able to make the demands they did as while empire hit hard so to would the thalmor. I support the empire. Because another war will happen butbthus time the dragonborn will be their to stand with the empire in defense against the thalmor menace.

[@David_Alvarez77]

@@eidoneverchoosen1171 The dragonborn will likely disappear from the canon narrative, just as the eternal champion, the agent, the hero of Kvatch, and the Nerevarine. The events of the dragonborn dlc show the way it will likely occur. Herma Mora has taken the dragonborn as his new champion/thrall and the events of the lead up to Elder Scrolls 6 will develop independently of what our character did or could have done in Skyrim.

[@thomasmasson7905]

​@@eidoneverchoosen1171 the empire was fresh when the war vs the dominion started. They were at their best and were wiped.

[@Trelitty11]

To be honest they’re both “good “ guys . The Thalmor are the enemy , and only indirectly helping the Stormcloaks in order too weaken EVERYONE . The Thalmor have manipulated the factions against each other so well only a few in Skyrim are aware of the broader picture . I hope in the next scrolls we find out the factions joined up against the Thalmor

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

Ya, people think the Thalmor are just zealots who enforce religion, the Thalmor are spies and saboteurs with completely insane goals, they are manipulating the Empire, the Stormcloaks, they manipulated the Khajiit, they're even manipulating the Aldmeri Dominion in order to reach their end goal. The Dominion isn't even the enemy, the Thalmor are, they're like an even more insane and capable Mythic Dawn.

[@1212Diablo]

Playing D&D and Baldur's gate 3 with you must be amazing!

[@matthewhanson701]

I, too, have characters like yours, planeswalkers who are all members of the same guild, roving the planes to defend the weak from the strong, etc. Lots of fun. One of them goes all the way back to Ultima Online, currently playing him in ESO.

[@10pointsofslashing]

That is actually really oddly in line with the faction those two characters I mention at the end of the video come from in the DND campaign they were born in. That’s freakin rad, dude. Cheers!

[@ThePack49]

I chose Ralof every time at the start because he wasn't the one who arrested me and wasn't on the beheading team After that I chose Stormcloaks because the ending to the civil war where they wouldn't kill Elisif. I was fine with killing General Tullius because he was an a** and when I was younger I never liked his voice. As I grew up I did try to see the Imperial side but dealing with the Thalmor was always an annoyance so I just couldn't chose Imperial because of the high-elves. 😅

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

Skyrim is a big place, full of wilderness and so few settlements... a Thalmor patrol may go missing and nobody will ever know why.

[@DeusNova7749]

I always side with the stormcloaks for one simple reasons. The imperals try to chop my head off in the opening scene so fuck 'em

[@infebris]

dude

[@leonardomontealegre3284]

my personal character is an evil powerul vampire, he sides with the empire cause he is aware that the real threat is the thalmor and he wants the thalmor and empire to destroy eachother so he can take out the weaker side when the war is over and rule over skyrim

[@notqunt1671]

Idk what it was but your speech at the end made me have a sort of emotional breakthrough, i too used to play the same characters in different games role-playing as them and seeing how that character would interact in that wolrd. Idk why i stopped

[@reecegreyshock9646]

I think that the Imperials are both spiritually weak and politically weak. They’ve had roughly 25 years in between The Great War and The Stormcloak Rebellion. Are you sincerely telling me that they’ve had 25 years to regather their strength and arms, but they are still not ready?! The truth is, the majority of rich politicians and the once-king Horik are all puppets of the Thalmor; they have no interest in Skyrim or it’s people, but rather using the political instability to create large monopolies and putting themselves in the circle of control over the province. Soldiers on both sides have suffered the willful ignorance of The Empire. Ulfric while not a great politician by any means , is a warrior and a soldier who understands the importance of discipline and outward strength. Politicians are only good for talking, but a soldiers life is all about doing, and I prefer a man who is willing to take *some* action over the absence of it🐺🌊 Edit: Also the fact that there is no option to call out the Thalmor for playing both sides at the meeting with all important figure heads is a tragic loss to the story. The Dragonborn actively chooses to withhold information from Ulfric that could at the least bring self awareness. They could have written both Ulfric and Tulius to have known there being played. Yet, because both sides have become far to invested in this civil war it would be to late to turn back, and either side had to win!

[@10pointsofslashing]

Some of your points I’m actually discussing in the next video I’m working on! I agree that the inaction is completely unacceptable. And I think if more soldiers did some talking and more politicians did some doing, the world in general would be a better place. I hear you, but I’d caution against supporting action simply for the sake of action being better than inaction.

[@speedytypermananswers5551]

Nords and Redguards forming alliance? Ivory and Ebony living in perfect harmony.

[@jodiepalmer2404]

Reminds me of Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney song "Ebony and Ivory" song. I think that's what you meant to write.

[@speedytypermananswers5551]

Yes I cant remember all the lyrics. I don’t like today music I like those kinds from different generation.

[@davidpeterson3147]

When playing as an Altmer, I enjoy RP as a Thalmor agent who is deep under cover as a double agent plant from the Blades assigned by urial septim and the elder council. Elves live a very long time and I usually also go vampire

[@TheUnseenPath]

You could also play a high elf defector someone who maybe was humiliated by the dominion or the Thalmor and thus wants to harm them by siding with the enemy.

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

The dynamic of the Dragonborn, the great hero of the Nords who is destined to crush Skyrim's enemies, being an Altmer is such a fun idea.

[@Fuskendov]

Imagine fighting under a banner only for you to get betrayed but the same people you fought with... Ulfric fought on the Great War, used his thu'um nobody asked or said anything about it... He used it in an 1 vs 1 DUEL and they named him murderer , traitor , barbarian ect... list keeps going on and on... Also he fought to liberate the reach, he's reward? Hand over to the Thalmor... He got tortured who knows how long or the intensity that he got tortured, he missed his father burrial he couldn't even mourn his own father imagine. He managed to escape and they welcomed him as a king of his kingdom without being ready to take such burden. He allowed the MOST RACIST RACE IN THE ENTIRE TAMRIEL inside his walls (Dunmer) , and also gave somewhat of a refuge to the argonians , ( Dunmer and Argonias are at odds with each other, who knows what would have happened if both of these races where put together?) The most wise decision to put the separately... Also argonias can breath underwater so they are invaluable workers for the docks and they can earn their living, Ulfric and the "Stormcloaks" Like everyone on Skyrim, hate Thalmor, not Altmer... there is 3 Altmer inside the city having bussiness, One stable , one Potions shop and one small (tent?) in the market area... If Ulfric or stormcloaks are recist... What all of these races doing in there in the first place... There is a war going on and Skyrim is in GREAT TURMOIL , normally in such situations nobody is go in or out but Ulfric welcomed them in. If you remember at the start of the game you are not allowed to go inside Whiterun because of a Dragon RUMOR. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you support because both sides have flaws, but you can't just go around and give one side more flaws that it has, is just not possible to hate one side because of favouritism.

[@firenze6478]

My biggest lean towards stormcloaks is that the empire hired ulfric to take back markarth and he agreed to on the condition of returning talos worship, succeeded and then was thrown in jail as soon as the thalmer caught word so the empire could save face, who then wrote a hit piece on him. ( its full of inaccuracies and praised the daedra human sacrificing forsworn as kind upstanding people.) The empire is near total collapse and will do anything to save itself, even at the cost of its other territories. What’s to stop the thalmer from creating another ulfric with how the empire gives them free reign over everything? How can they rebuild when their enemy can freely roam inciting unrest and atrocities while the empire plays accomplice out of fear?

[@NonexistentIntellect]

I played a high elf that had defected. Any time I saw thalmor it was on sight

[@travislizer9581]

If the Empire went after the Dominion before resolving the civil war, then they would be facing both at the same time. If the Stormcloaks shift to deal with the Dominion, the Empire could give some breathing room. Also the outlaw of Talos deprives everyone in Tameriel the buffs from the shrines. Thats better shout cooldown time, and the big one, cure all diseases. With Talos outlawed the Dominion can practice biowarefare unchecked. Skyrim is for the Nords.

[@user-ne5fv3yu9j]

Skyrim civil war bell curve hits me like a truck, First time playing I sided with stormcloaks because of unga bunga fantasy vikings swinging axes for freedom Then I become Imperial because for unity of mankind with Ulfric instigating the war from Markarth incident, inviting thalmors to Skyrim, until I finally realized that Thalmors does purges towards the people who disobeyed them, from what happened Malborn and Ondolemar would commit persecution to randomly purge anyone, I think Skyrim is best to be left under herself because after the war the exhausted legions is under rebuilding and handling dragons while Thalmors would take opportunity to purge the people of Skyrim and it's horrifying, and my decision to choose stormcloaks aren't including the terrible imperial government, sidequests, past history of how nords defeated the elves and their resistance against magic, Hammerfell alliance, and crazy stuff related to Talos divinity itself and Altmer desperation on their diminishing power otherwise I'll be a new elder scrolls youtuber to talk about this stuff

[@Koyomix86]

People say a stormcloak Skyrim would be alone but I can’t see a world where Hammerfell, another province who rebelled against the empire to fight the Aldmeri dominion (a fight they won), wouldn’t work with them. Two nations with the strongest warrior culture presenting a united front against the Aldmeri dominion is stronger than an empire with only a broken Skyrim, Cyrodil, and High Rock. Besides in the next war both Hammerfell and Skyrim would help the empire so I think in terms of just fighting the Aldmeri Dominion having two provinces free from their control is better than Skyrim staying in the empire.

[@wolves600]

Ifirc the redguards and nords have a lot of bad blood and the stormcloaks are framed for the asssination of the emperor so there is no way they will ever be able to work together

[@thomasmasson7905]

High rock would surely join their alliance too, as they would be completely isolated from cyrodiil

[@TwiggyShei]

The good guys are whoever i want them to be. Saturday morning cartoons have taught me that good guys always win, therefore whichever side I choose to make win must be the good guys.

[@XVERLXRD420]

I actually made a Thalmor agent character once. His main things were heavy armor, summon swords, and strangulation, and then I realized I made Darth Vader.

[@maltehoffmann2914]

I saw a meme about your very Argumentation: „Both the Imperials and the Stormcloacks want to get rid of the Thalmor, we are basically on the same side“ „You side with the Stormcloacks because you want to fight the Thalmor, I side with the Empire so I can keep killing Thalmor, we are not the same“

[@rumac16]

Empire is the Midwit Choice Stormcloaks is the low IQ and high IQ choice Politically Independent Skyrim is like USA rebelling from Britain. It works out well for both of them in the Long run

[@totalygamingtemplar]

yea but choosing stormcloaks will make life for whiterun worse because of the burning buildings

[@elseggs6504]

Or the Netherlands breaking off of Spain

[@sabnock31]

Except Skyrim is not across the sea from Cyrodiil and not even that far from Summerset Isles where actual enemy sits. America becoming independent was only possible due to it's being far away from any real enemies that couldn't ransack the place while it was weak. Siding with Stormcloaks is going to make both Skyrim and the Empire weaker. Skyrim gets no support from Empire, Empire gets no support from Skyrim, Thalmor swoops up and takes out both of them. Then your precious Stormcloaks will fail and Talos would be still banned and people worshipping him would be executed. Stormcloaks is low IQ choice no matter.

[@brokenursa9986]

I make a point of killing every Thalmor I see in every run I do of Skyrim. Even the few Altmer characters I've played hate the Thalmor. I sometimes make jokes that elves are the only people it's okay to be racist towards, and the Thalmor make that sentiment more than just a joke.

[@avoiceofreason8622]

Now you have to roleplay a Thalmor agent. Shadow work.

[@christinaedwards5084]

Entirely depends on if I’m playing a nord or an imperial. 😂 Skyrim is for the nords, I’m not a fan of immigrants either. For the empire, unified through a shared interest. We are legion. Joys of being able to play a character and not myself. My personal feelings don’t factor in.

[@10pointsofslashing]

Boom! Yes, exactly. One of the many reasons RPGs are absolutely my poison. Playing a character allows you to step outside of your own beliefs and worldviews and explore and immerse yourself in somebody else’s. So many of my favorite characters’ decisions and beliefs are so vastly different from my own and it’s just a freakin blast.

[@Ithyldr]

My biggest two points that put me on the empire side are the following: 1. We already saw how a war of all the human factions against the Aldmeri Dominion went. There is no reason to believe that a post civil war alliance of only humans stands a chance of beating the Aldmeri Dominion alone, regardless of which side wins. If the Aldmeri Dominion is going to fall, it is going to take an alliance that includes Elves, Kajhit, or Argonians. I don't see that happening with the Stormcloaks in charge of Skyrim. Their rhetoric is just too nord supremacist, too much like the Aldmeri Dominion, for that to ever work out. The Empire, on the other hand, has been cooperating with and trading with these nations for a very long time. If anyone is going to unite the world against the Aldmeri Dominion, it's going to be the Empire. 2. If the Dominion tries to take Skyrim, an Imperial victory actually leaves Skyrim in a better position to defend itself than a Stormcloak one. The empire has you clear out a bandit controlled fort as your test for entry, and they garrison it afterwards. This shows that their priority is reinforcing Skyrim, making it more defensible. The Stormcloaks, on the other hand, cripple Whiterun and imprison Jarl Balgruf, one of the wisest and most active Jarls in the game. A Stormcloak controlled Skyrim is significantly weaker than an Empire controlled one. Lastly, this is less of a point and more of an interesting tidbit, but in the siege of Whiterun, only one house gets destroyed and becomes unusable: The home of Heimskr, the illegal Talos worshipper. I think this makes for a great metaphor for the entire Stormcloak war effort. Despite their best intentions, the Stormcloaks are hurting the people they claim to fight for more than anyone else.

[@fligy39]

Just a quick challenge when it comes to your second point: How is skyrim better defended with the Empire keeping control of it when its armies are off fighting in cyrodiil (which, in the past, caused forsworn, a group mostly unorganized and tribal, to take over Markarth)?

[@shaokhanwins1037]

1. completely falls apart when you realize the Thalmor prefer to deal with the empire than have an independent skyrim. It is found in a document in the deeper parts of thalmor embassy. Empire with support from all it's provinces lost to the dominion. Now the empire is under a disfavorable treaty, hammerfell left the empire, High rock is hinted in-game to also not like the empire anymore, and skyrim does not like the ban of talos worship; stormcloak or not. These are the countries where the empire get the BULK of their infantry. The empire has to bribe skyrim's jarls to keep even half of them. An empire with big borders but unsupported by it's provinces is just a fragile empire stretched too thin. Now, three independent nations supported by it's people? That's something the thalmor does not want to see as written in that document. 2. can't happen anytime soon. I think everyone forgot that both the dominion and empire are at a very crippled state and are both just waiting for the opportune moment. If the dominion send an invading force to a country in the other side of tamriel, their borders will be defenseless. They have many enemies. They do not have the means. The empire is at a similar state, Tullius had to recruit locally. I don't think the dominion can recruit anyone in skyrim lol. 3. Yet Heimskr is very happy. It also shows a flipside; the people of skyrim are willing to sacrifice a lot to keep their way of life.

[@Ithyldr]

@@fligy39 The force fighting in the Skyrim Civil War for the Empire is not the Imperial Legion. It is comprised of Skyrim nords loyal to the Empire, and it is roughly equal in size and strength to the Stormcloak forces, leading to the stalemate at the start of the game. This means that these soldiers will be staying in Skyrim to defend it after the Civil War. Since the armies are roughly equal, we're left to look at what other differences affect the two factions postwar. These major differences are as follows. The Empire makes a visible effort to staff abandoned forts, while the Stormcloaks prefer symbolic shows of strength. The Empire allies with Whiterun and Jarl Balgruf, whereas the Stormcloaks must wipe out Whiterun's sizable guard population and imprison Jarl Balgruf. I'm not saying that the Empire necessarily makes Skyrim stronger, but the civil war plotline requires that the Stormcloaks cripple Skyrim in order to win, in a way that the Imperial victory doesn't. If Ulfric wins Skyrim, it will be a necessarily weaker Skyrim than if he loses because of the damage he has to do to win.

[@fligy39]

​@@Ithyldr While I jenuinly appreciate the arguments you make, I think you might be presenting the Empire's performance in a far too flattering way... The Empire is guilty of plenty, from sending prisoners of war into Thalmor camps (not just sanctioning, but actively shipping said prisoners there), to ignoring the non-military needs of people they wish to continue leading in favor of military conquest, to even outright politically corrupting cities for their own gain. Thalmor thrive in the type of politics the Empire engages in, which is why they got to where they are. Take the cut quest for the shrine of boethia, for example: originally you would kill Elisif, the Jarl of Solitude in that quest, after which the Empire places Erikur on the throne due to his business interests aligning with the Empire. The Empire needs Skyrim, sure, but Skyrim by no means needs the Empire, since Skyrim is geographically in an amazingly defensible position after Hammerfell became independent. Btw, for context, I genuinlty dislike both sides. Choosing between supporting Thalmor-controlled, uncaring government or a power-hungry warmonger is like picking which tooth to have a root-canal on. Looking at the outcomes, however, it's hard to justify why Skyrim should waste it's resources in defending an Empire who refuses to respond in kind.

[@Cyrus_T_Laserpunch]

Depending on how annoyed the Hist gets, Argonians could take down the Dominion alone.

[@alexanderchippel]

The direct communication with Ulfric probably refers to the implication that the Thalmor agreed to allow Talos worship specifically within the Reach if Ulfric helped quell the Reachmen rebellion.

[@mlmii1933]

I tend to play an Imperial who first tries to remain neutral, then reaches towards the Empire but finally finds her home with the Stormcloaks to defend the land she grew to love.