Skyrim's Civil War is more complicated than you think...

[@ParadigmShiftInc]

At this point, all I want in ES6, is 3 NCP's named Scott, Michea,l and Drew, who sit in a Tavern all day and debate Tameielic history. you guys, as well as other KZbinr, like Camelworks, MXR, and Imperial Knowledge have helped kept the fanbase alive for years, and I think it's only right that Bethesda honors you guys with at least a shoutout in the next game.

[@soldiergigas14]

Patience is a great virtue friend. I have been distracting myself with Pokémon, God of War, Elden Ring and recently, Black Myth Wukong. 👍❤️

[@leannemedhurst9662]

They should be the new bards college

[@slixkkdemon17]

fuck a shoutout, they need to be given JOBS in the creative team.

[@AlternateUltima]

Watch the fan animation "THLMR 4 - Tavern" by AllinAll, you get basically exactly that, even if it its is technically noncanon

[@moskaumaster1594]

I doubt Bethesda would want to bring much attention to MXR

[@cap_junn6397]

The issue ive always had with skyrims civil war is how despite its narrative implications, it never felt like it was actually happening

[@GarlicPudding]

Check out the Open Civil War and Warzones mods. They add a lot of spawnpoints for Stormcloaks and Imperials to fight each other. Plus a ton of other faction skirmishes (Forsworn, rogue mages, etc)

[@grilledleeks6514]

Yeah mods fix this on pc

[@Grandmaster_Dragonborn]

As far as skirmishes in the world? I think that’s 2011 gameplay limitations, not an actual fault on the game. Otherwise, you do get the feeling through in-game dialogue from characters of all kinds, it’s interesting how whether it’s a blacksmith, war general or the leaders themselves, you can talk to them and hear their perspective, it makes it feel like a real conflict with real people.

[@lexaray5]

Huh, really? I have the exact opposite impression. NPCs talk about the civil war as well as how it's impacting them and Skyrim as a whole nonstop. The first decision you have to make in the game is who to go with through Helgen Keep. The biggest visual consequence of the game is the permanent damage caused to Whiterun. It felt like it was far more central to the world and even the game story than the actual main quest.

[@Nathan-zw7nq]

@@GarlicPuddingyeah I have some kind of skirmish so that is very common to see in the distance a group of 30 or so imperials and stormcloaks having at each other. Usually what happens is only a 2-4 survive and go their own way. That’s how Bethesda should have handled it

[@MrYotosun]

The craziest thing about this is that people can see and understand all of this deep subtext in a game but are absolutely incapable of doing the same in real life.

[@greenreptile5650]

yeah but Skyrim is actually cool, the real modern world of today sucks.

[@noahjones1192]

@@greenreptile5650 you’d be surprised. Lots of interesting things have happened in history. It’s just not packaged neat and nice like Skyrim is

[@yarus5889]

​@@noahjones1192 For real, just read about any ancient general

[@ATOMIC_V_8]

Because they're separated from it and have access to all of the Info in a convenient format.

[@ATOMIC_V_8]

​@@greenreptile5650 yes exactly, real life politics is boring and depressing

[@anthonyolavarria1653]

Ulfric is being heavily influenced by Galmar Stone-Fist, I believe he convinced Ulfric to kill Torygg. The first time you enter palace of the kings Ulfric is hesitant on what to do with Whiterun and Balgruuf and ultimately decides to try a more diplomatic approach but Galmar is insisting violence right of the bat and encourages Ulfric to kill him. The way Ulfric is acting here isn't like someone that would kill a king when he had other options. Most of their interactions Galmar's first impulse is to fight and gets exited before civil battles while Ulfric comes off as he doesn't seem to actually want to fight until he feels it's necessary. It looks like Galmar is a warmonger that usually gets his way. In the end they are Ulfric's choices but I believe Galmar had a huge role to play in starting the war.

[@danielbriggz]

GUYS, ITS A LORE VIDEO!!!!!

[@zauvimoo]

The lore Muppet has been missed

[@alexsao1105]

Another lore video before Elder scrolls 6

[@crabbuckets7506]

A rare occurrence.

[@donwald3436]

Orange still bad tho.

[@jmw1500]

Thanks my redguard.

[@nickstod5789]

God I forget how much Ulfric practically begs Rikke to go away and leave Tullius. The Civil War could have been so much more nuanced seeing moments like that survive development.

[@KyleDGrizzly]

I feel like we need A Skyrim Modlist from Fudge Muppet because this whole video is gorgeous and I love curtain details like Irelith wearing Dunmerian armor.

[@somberflight]

I love the armours in this video. We need the mods

[@KyleDGrizzly]

@@somberflight A lot of the armors are NordWarUA mods but the armor general tullius uses is Titus Mede I armor which gives you the option to have it be general tullius’ armor when you install it. I’ve been researching. 😅

[@somberflight]

​@@KyleDGrizzlythanks. They seem decently realistic, apart from a couple

[@urbonx]

I love fudge visuals.

[@The.Usurper]

Certain*

[@masterronin776]

THANK YOU for clarifying the definition of "asset" as used in the Thalmor dossier. All these years and that is still the most common misconception I see in these discussions.

[@ThemoonsFullofgoons-qn9xl]

Imperials somehow get brainwashing and sleeper agent from uncooperative asset they always do this goes to show they can’t read dossiers or they think lying strengthens their cause 😂

[@stephenjenkins7971]

I agree with that. But the "made contact" bit is sus af

[@ThemoonsFullofgoons-qn9xl]

@@stephenjenkins7971 well it can be interpreted in many ways

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@ThemoonsFullofgoons-qn9xl Only if you're biased.

[@dutchpatriot17]

He didn't clarify it, Ulfric's status as an asset is not just due to him being valuable.

[@verymelonman12]

Honestly I agree with you. The Civil War questline may be underwhelming to play, but there's enough meat for players to spend a decade debating on. And that balance of two viable sides to argue for it's worth praising as far as writing goes.

[@BremsOfSlo]

Not really, it's just that Skyrim players are lobotomized troglodytes that don't understand the English language so they read 'asset' and their brains melt to sludge. Beyond that there's no debate to have about the civil war, either side you pick is a good choice because the worst outcome is the war dragging on. If the Empire wins they still have Skyrim as well as its manpower if the Empire loses it doesn't have to garrison Skyrim which frees up their soldiers in the province, that's it. The writing itself is non existent

[@lizrengaming5133]

​@@BremsOfSlorage bait much? I stopped playing Skyrim for about 4 years because of rerelease after rerelease, a lot of players feel the same way, so trying to get a lore dump is fine as long as someone does the research right. Also the reason why I'm calling you out for rage bait is calling people lobotomized isn't a good argument bud.

[@samburkey9962]

that's nonsensical buddy, it's made clear throughout the game that the empire is the canon and correct choice​@@BremsOfSlo

[@Kirasupporter1]

@@samburkey9962 Proof?

[@Kirasupporter1]

@@BremsOfSlo This 100 percent, They read the first few words and think the case is closed conveniently ignoring the part where it says a stormcloak victory is to be avoided and that he is uncooperative

[@dextersynesterformerlysorb5334]

Hearing you say "asset does NOT mean someone affiliated with the group" has just set to bed the demons raging in my head for the past 13 years at people who don't understand how intrigue works. people actually thought the big racist man worked with the thalmor with no other context clues but a bad definition of the word asset. thank you.

[@Nockgun]

I see uncooperative, so i see Ulfric is used like a pawn to cause a distraction for the Empire so Thalmor can be Thalmor

[@val9847]

they state that he started being uncooperative which implies cooperation

[@dextersynesterformerlysorb5334]

@@val9847 no, it says he has become uncooperative after first contact, which does not at all infer* previous cooperation.

[@kevinczaractual]

It's hard to avoid modern comparison, but the fact is that Ulfric acts in the better interests of the Thalmor, whether he means to or not. Removing him is bad for the Thalmor. He may not be a traitor, but he is a fool with power, and the cunning villains among the Thalmor can easily turn that into an asset.

[@dextersynesterformerlysorb5334]

@@kevinczaractual from the elves' perspective, he's breaking up the power structure yada yada you know why this is good for them - but really, is it? is it really an advantage for them to have nations independent of resource drain from an empire but united in their hatred of the dominion? i don't think it is. i think the empire is much weaker in it's clinging pretend state, like the byzantines were, than independent but allied former imperial nations, like the crusader states were. removing him ensures the dominion continues to wash over leaderless rebels instead of united enemies. you are, simply, wrong.

[@rontretta749]

It doesn’t get better than a lore video from the OGs. Honesty bethesda owes so much to you guys, Great video Lads ❤️

[@EchoEchoEchoEchoEchoEchoEchoEc]

This video made me realize why Ulfric is so against Elenwen's participation in peace talks in the quest: Season Unending. She's not just the chief of their inquisition squad, she's the person who tortured him in his youth during the great war, and the one who (probably) planted the idea it was his fault that the imperial city had fallen. It's like bringing a still-abusive ex into a therapy session. Tulus has the balls to call out Ulfric about 'good faith' multiple times but then brings that nightmare as an official representative. Also, considering this context, and other events Ulfric views himself as a failure for (not being there for his father's death while stuck in jail/that whole deal in Markarth), I can understand why he feels like 'I fight so that all the fighting that's already been done has not been for nothing'. He speaks both generally about the Nords/Skyrim and himself personally. Dude NEEDS a win, and this may be his last chance.

[@apostleianlovelette]

"It's like bringing a still-abusive ex into a therapy session." This right here. Another analogy is like going to the bathroom for a huge Taco Bell steamer, then trying to shove it right back where it came from. Imperial or Stormcloak, the common denominator is that Elenwen is a Thalmor THOT who has no business in ANY negotiation. Might as well invite a terrorist to a peace conference.

[@IPendragonI]

He doesn't need a win. He needs eternal peace, and I grant him that honour every time.

[@Czah5]

Tullius should have brought Ulfric before the Emperor, instead of Helgen, as was the original terms of surrender. I am beginning to believe that Tullius is the true Thalmor asset.

[@bigdiddyzp1762]

​@@IPendragonIcorny elf simp

[@LAZERAK47V2]

​@@Czah5 All throughout Skyrim, the Empire seems to have a blatant disregard for their own laws and honorable conduct. Heck, they sentence your character to the headsman's axe despite having no evidence against you. And Tullius doesn't even reprimand the captain for going against protocol. The Empire that Talos founded, which was also blessed by Akatosh, died the day Martin Septim sacrificed himself. The current empire is nothing more than a bunch of politicians and warlords scheming and plotting against each other. And an empire that can't protect its provinces is not fit to rule. The White Gold Concordat was an insult to every nation that supported the Empire, as the Imperials immediately surrendered the moment their city was threatened, but are more than willing to throw every other nation into a meat grinder.

[@Reign_Dropz]

Thank god Fudgemuppet released a hour and a half long elder scrolls video. Now I can finally sleep by the nine is been months

[@garrettlaturski6703]

The debate almost reminded me of Lawful vs Chaotic Alignments in D&D. Lawful Alignments tend to care more about order and structure, where as Chaotic Alignments tend to care more about freedom and self determination. Both have their benefits, and their downsides, and they are considered to be separate from Good vs Evil.

[@PatJWilliams]

This also perfectly describes the mindsets of Steve Rogers & Stark in MCU Civil War

[@bartofii]

oh man.. THOSE discussions were headache inducing because everyone had some serious issues about defining what it meant to be lawful or chaotic. Some real gems out there for people adamant that "following their moral code" was *lawful* because of their adhering to the rules of the code... just ignoring entirely if that code was something that was acceptable among the greater society

[@garrettlaturski6703]

@bartofii I would argue that societal expectations have little to do with that. Especially because what is considered normal/justified changes over time or changes from society to society.

[@bartofii]

​@@garrettlaturski6703 I personally grew to view law/chaos as order/disorder and how one acts in a society with differing degrees of enforcement to impose or depose the order. As such one's actions might be "chaotic" in certain context if they are acting openly against the standard set. the issue was when people instead viewed lawful as "following rules" and then mental gymnastic'd their way to viewing a moral code as a self imposed rule that can then make someone lawful if they follow it while ignoring the context of how those actions take place with respect to the society around them... like arguing batman is lawful when going around as a vigilante, breaking into homes/facilities, trespassing, assaulting... well breaking a host of laws in trying to seek out justice in Gotham, but still adheres to his avoidance of killing or showing restraint.

[@garrettlaturski6703]

I see self-imposed rules as almost the embodiment of law. You are choosing to build your own structure and follow through with it, so long as you actually remain consistent. That's what something like the Oath of Vengeance is. Don't take these replies as an argument. I am not saying you're wrong, I'm just passionate about my own opinions, and like discussing them.

[@welshmansays14]

Fudgemuppet: Skyrim came out in 2011, it's an "OLD" Game. And I took that personally

[@pyrojack8230]

13 years is pretty old brother. When Skyrim came out, Ocarina of Time was 13 years old and people already called it Retro.

[@vapingfury4460]

Yeah dude your an old fart now

[@joshuajefferson3504]

I like how people still debate the skyrim civil war till this day. 😂😂😂

[@gershwinwest]

And gon debate on it till Talos says something 🤝🏾😂😂

[@joshuajefferson3504]

​@@gershwinwest😂😂

[@chriscormac231]

@@gershwinwest Ulf in morrowind is one of Talos' mortal guises and he agrees that tge empire is due for replacement

[@spider-spectre]

Cause nothing has changed.....the story has literally been stagnant till they make something new that is after in the timeline.

[@SwooshJush83]

Hopefully the new game answers that question

[@TwoMana]

I am truly blessed, I had exhausted your whole channel of Skyrim content and now you have just given me an hours worth of content.

[@Mary_Beth_Reimer]

I play their videos quite often as background noise when I go to bed. I find I pick up on stuff I missed as I'm listening when I wake up.

[@JokinMichel]

​@@Mary_Beth_Reimerglad I'm not the only one 😅

[@TMatthews98]

A sovereign Skyrim allied with an independent Hammerfell seems very likely, the aftermath of the Great War left both in a similar position and both have a strong warrior culture. The Empire is also gearing up for war. This would force the Dominion to fight multiple fronts, it's possible Valenwood may revolt since it was conquered by the Dominion.

[@Duranous.]

I often wondered if several independent nations would fair better than a crumbling empire in decline. Obviously, Skyrim has many legitimate grievances with how the empire is treating them. The only way I could really see the empire recovering is if it got a new extremely powerful emperor, like the dragonborn. Either way I would think that if an ES6 occurs on the continent of tamriel it should encompass the second great war.

[@bloster_ant]

@@Duranous. Hopefully ES6 doesn’t follow the trend of taking place several several centuries in the future, where all we can do to learn about the aftermath of Skyrim is some books here and there. If it’s NOT mostly about the second Great War, I’m wondering if it’s even worth playing.

[@GunterThePenguinHatesHugs]

I'm terrified for TES6, like I really hope they do the fans justice and take into account all the lore, philosophy and politics? ...But I'm scared that Bethesda will ignore their own rich lore in order to _'Avoid making current-year-applicable political commentary'_ or something weak like that...

[@pfarnsworth84]

​@Duranous. That's essentially what I see as the proper outcome, and why I seriously dislike how dumb and limited the choices are in the civil war quest. The Dragonborn has the demi-god-like power and public influence to single-handedly stop the civil war by assuming control of the Empire, now that Mede II is dead, rebuild the Empire and form an alliance with Hammerfell, Skyrim, and any other province that is sick of the Aldmeri Dominion (at least Valenwood, but the Khajiit and Argonians have gotten the Altmer shaft as well). This combined 'Non Altmer Tamrielic Organization' would be a force to be reckoned with.

[@FrostDreki]

​@pfarnsworth84 The funny part is that, from a lore perspective, the Dragonborn doesn't need an army to fight off the Altmer. He could simply speak their destruction into existence without hesitation 😅.

[@butcherpete2286]

I cannot wait for this channel to get a boon of both content and subs when the next elder scrolls game releases in 2069

[@Nexter-Lie]

Honestly, considering it's been five years since the TEASER, maybe your guess for the date is accurate?

[@Seveinis]

Put around 600 hours into Skyrim in 2011 and played very little with creation club, finally decided to give it another play through now that I’m older and can really conceptualize the story, this video is so so good and really gives me another level of immersion for this play through

[@b0daddie]

If ES6 isn’t about destroying the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion, I don’t want it

[@jasperzanovich2504]

So far the assumption is that ES6 will e set in Hammerfell, so we certainly won't directly destroy the Thalmor.

[@yurigoncalves3727]

i think it will be set in a whole different era

[@litrogue6328]

why are you a racist like the stormcloaks?

[@Dev7.62]

I think they will include high rock. I don’t think hammer fell alone would please everyone. Hammer fell is a huge desert and I don’t think fantasy fans would be happy with that . If they included high rock it would please everyone I think. That’s the reason why we haven’t seen a game that includes black marsh or elsewhere.

[@bunnitomoe3866]

​​@@Dev7.62 Nah, we definitely only gonna get the entirety of Hammerfell with some special areas. Everyone thought that Skyrim will be just covered in snow

[@menialbee]

i feel like at this point even when elder scrolls 6 comes out, well still return back to skyrim

[@Mary_Beth_Reimer]

True, considering I still like to play Oblivion too, lol

[@KaijuSlayer54]

So, you're finally awake.

[@LoftOfTheUniverse]

Jeremy Soule won't be in ES6 sadly... and bethesda is woke. Skyrim was the last real ES game. Fun while it lasted.

[@connivingkhajiit]

We will just have to wait and see what ES6 holds. I have hope that it will be good, with the amount of time it's taken, but if it isn't I will not be too surprised.

[@GrievousReborn]

​@@LoftOfTheUniverselet me play you a song with the world's smallest violin

[@geoffreymiller9831]

I can never get enough Skyrim content

[@Dinglesmckringles]

I have ZERO faith that Bethesda will create a well-written Elder Scrolls 6

[@Duranous.]

After starfield I also have no faith.

[@drinnoshika4233]

That's why tabletop roleplaying, Homebrewing, and or stuff like Gurps or D&D 5e rules (or 3.5e)

[@eggbreath9631]

@@Duranous.Todd Howard’s magnum opus lmao

[@Duranous.]

@@eggbreath9631 I had no idea that a totally new Bethesda sci fi could be so boring and uninspired...

[@HowManySmall]

Skyrim itself isn't even that well written,games only got lore and not a good in game story

[@georgehouliaras7239]

We are back, sons and daughters of Skyrim.

[@madisonsosa21]

The true sons and daughters of Skyrim

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

We are SO back

[@ViewtifulBeau]

I am the Eternal Champion

[@3TYKX]

We are the true heirs to the Empire of Talos.

[@TheHK_47]

​@@3TYKX and the rightful rulers of skyrim

[@ganondoofd4281]

GET OUT OF MY WALLS!!! I just started a new survival character on legendary with some civil war mods trying to be a merchantile character to get immersed, JUST hopped off and less the 30 minutes ago you posted this. Bravo amazing timing I'm scared

[@Alexanderofthe9th]

We are all synced. This happens way too much for it to be coincidence anymore imo

[@codyschuppert4984]

I did the same thing last knight

[@piqle]

i just picked the game up again too out of the blue, 3 days ago

[@CatHasOpinions734]

The sticking point I keep coming to with Ulfric is when he chooses to be ideological vs when he chooses to be pragmatic. It would have been no less traditional or honorable to have a conversation with Torygg, but instead he put him and by extension the entire capitol city into a carefully calculated no-win situation that, while in keeping with Nord traditions, is also the sort of political machination more characteristic of Boethia than Talos. He's capable of both pragmatism and idealism, but he seems to pick and choose on the basis of what's more glorious for him, rather than what's best for the ordinary citizens, or even what would make things worse for the Thalmor.

[@itsQuintcy]

Good point. I think it's because of this: For Ulfrick it's essential to boast himself to show that he can be the high king, the true nord. That's why he has to put himself in the spotlight always. He thinks that being the manlies nord is the true way to be a good high king for your people. That's also what I dislike about him. He is the personification of "we only need a strong leader and all will be good"

[@CatHasOpinions734]

@itsQuintcy absolutely. It's frustrating because we know he can be pragmatic, but when we see him choosing between actually making things better for the people of Skyrim (or sometimes specifically Windhelm) or becoming more glorious (or otherwise closer to whatever ideal he has in his head), he'll pick the second option. And to be fair maybe that's because he thinks that if he becomes an ideal king his peoples' problems will just magically be resolved, lots of leaders have fallen for that kind of thinking and it doesn't make them evil. But it DOES make them incorrect and less likely to actually be good for their citizens.

[@itsQuintcy]

@CatHasOpinions734 yes I totally agree on the citizen part. Ulfrick is that kind of guy who creates this glorified personality cult around him. He gathers all the people that have hatred for the talmor, the whole white-gold concordat and all Talos fans. Then he proceeds to buy into this problem around who is the high king at the current moment and tells some ideological fiction about freeing Skyrim by having a true son of Skyrim on the throne. The killing of high king Torygg and this calculated no-win made him the senter piece in what many conservative nords in Skyrim already wanted to believe. Let's say he "frees" Skyrim. Now they are basically at war with the Altmeri Dominion and the Empire.

[@zaydmuminuun]

So Ulfric is… Trump?

[@CatHasOpinions734]

@@zaydmuminuun there are definitely some similarities, but Ulfric gives better speeches.

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

Important notes on random things: Talos actually has a totally reasonable and non-conflicting explanation behind his racial identity. He's thought of as an Imperial, but the Imperial race(s?) of Colovia and Nibenay are known to include ancient Nordic blood. The mention of "men of Kreath" as Ayleid slaves confirms this at the least, along with intermeixing throughout centuries of good relations. Typical Nord and Imperial people are racially so close, even assuming a racist pair of people you'd get intermarrying a lot. He's described as being short and has been called "manmer" suggesting Breton lineage, but we also know for sure that his original name was Hjalti Early-Beard (Ysmir is a title also shared by Wulfharth he later becomes part of the Talos being and also by the Dragonborn in TES V and other unknown characters likely had it). Based on all of this, and the fact that a person can inherit racial traits from a father but is usually the race of the mother overall, one could safely say Hjalti was a Skyrim-born Nordic man with Breton blood possibly related to the ancient Nord invasion of High Rock and the potential of average Imperial blood but in total was a Nord. A Nord with some mixed blood, making it fitting that he became the spirit of human undertaking. Chim-el Adabal is not actually the name of the Amulet of Kings, rather it's the name of the red diamond which holds all its magic. Red because it's magically infused blood from Lorkhan, which absorbed Aetherial power from an Ayleid well and was further enhanced by Akatosh's influence. This does not directly conflict with ebony being Lorkhan's blood because that could be the result of his normal blood 'drying' in a metaphysical sense and when his heart formed Red Mountain it likely spread through incredibly deep underground movements by means of magma flows, explaining the incredible magical power of such magma as seen with the Aetherium Forge. Titus Mede II knew he would be assassinated, and there's evidence he may have partially orchestrated it himself, although not totally confirmed. We also have some confirmation that a replacement emperor immediately sits the throne, because the characters in places still refer to one, and the detail was even put in place that Tullius administering the oath to the Dragonborn slight adjusts his words to reflect the death of Titus. This probably means that his son, a man who would most likely be in his forties, inherited his throne.

[@anyashindler3781]

Wait, we’re going to ignore that Ulfric was ok with child murder? Yeah, sorry that’s why I don’t side with him regardless of his history

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

@@anyashindler3781 He's also quite comfortable with letting Argonians live like abused slaves, letting the Dunmer in his city live in a trash heap that guards barely pay attention to, and is very irrational in thinking Skyrim would stand any chance against the Dominion without help. Considering his forces would have almost no mages if they had any at all, and one talented wizard could burn or electrocute a whole column of Stormcloaks in the right situation, he's clearly a bit crazy on top of the reality of how bad he'd be as a ruler. We already have an example of how bad he is at running one city, so running all of Skyrim he'd make it a bad place.

[@rjfarris8324]

⁠@@UnswimmingFishYTthe Argonians aren’t let into the city for the safety of themselves and the Dunmer. The Dunmer constantly enslaved the Argonians through out all of Tamriels history. Black Marsh invaded Morrowind shortly after the eruption of Red Mountain, slaughtering countless Dunmer. Ulfric is trying to keep the peace as best he can in his city walls. It’s an unfortunate circumstance but it’s something that is best for both of them. Windhelm was also the only city in the province to let in Dunmer refugees after the eruption and continues to welcome Dunmer still immigrating from Morrowind. Again the only city in Skyrim that lends a helping hand to their eastern neighbors. The state of the Grey Quarter can be justified in a multitude of ways. The general state of Windhelm isn’t great. Hell the state of the entire province isn’t great considering Skyrim, and all of Tamriel for that matter, currently exists in a post apocalyptic state. The Oblivion Crisis coupled with The Great War and The Red Year gutted the continent essentially bringing every province to its knees. Skyrim could hold off the Thalmor just fine. Hammerfell held them off by themselves with no outside help, a province with a similar warrior culture like Skyrim. To assume Skyrim wouldn’t ally with the remaining imperial nations is just wrong. High Rock would likely send forces, as well as Cyrodill, and possibly Hammerfell. The Great War isn’t as surface level as the Empire versus the Aldmeri Dominion. It’s a race war, Men versus Mer so it’s very likely the races of Man would unite against the races of Mer even if the empire exists in a fractured state.

[@Brandelwyn]

Dunmer refuse to assimilate and work with other races thats why they're so poor. And argonians not being allowed inside makes perfect sense considering all the inevitable lizard on knifeear violence ​@UnswimmingFishYT

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@anyashindler3781As if the empire hasn’t murdered any children throughout its history lol. Nobody’s hands are clean.

[@CosmicFreedoms]

A point about "Empire needs to be whole to resist the Aldmeri". The Redguard are doing just fine.

[@jextra1313]

Holding Hammerfell isn't a necessity for the Aldmeri Dominion, it was just a place to assault the Imperial City's tower from. My opinion is that they saw it as a waste of troops to hold Hammerfell after the the White-Gold Concordat was signed, so they put up little fight and fled, to make the Redguards think they could stand alone without the Empire. Altmer are cunning like that.

[@varlak9061]

​@@jextra1313like the Dominion literally seem like they're trying to divide and conquer so that could be the case, hard to take hammer fell when they're spread out would be easier when they control everything and only have hammer fell to fight

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@jextra1313Actually Hammerfell was the priority of the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War because they wanted complete control of the Abecean Sea, not Cyrodiil and at the time it was experiencing a civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears. However they united and managed to repel the Thalmor even without imperial support and they still stand to this day. This proves that the Thalmor do not have the resources and manpower necessary to occupy a human province.

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@varlak9061Except divide and conquer doesn’t work when the independent polities are focused on fighting the Thalmor. Neither the Stormcloaks nor the Redguards will allow the Thalmor to occupy Cyrodiil and the Thalmor have been proven to lack the resources and manpower to occupy a human province.

[@frankmessina4470]

@@teyrncousland7152 actually Tullius remarks that the only reason the rebellion hasnt been defeated is because the Empire cant spare a single legion to fight Ulfric because the legions are on the boarder prepared to fight the dominion and if they could Ulfric would fall within 2 weeks. Ulfric backs this up if the emperor is in solitude before the end of the civil war remarking that they cant risk an actual war with the empire. it stands to reason the thalmar are in the same situation and cant risk sending an entire army to take hammerfell because theyre preparing for another war. After all they refer to it as "The First war against the Empire"

[@Mikuday]

This is very put of the blue but... I didnt remember how Ulfrics voice sounded... Im so jealous of that VA

[@deveshbhagat2732]

i feel like he doesn't sound like that in the game. not sure, but hadvar definitely sounded fifteenth

[@deveshbhagat2732]

different, not fifteenth

[@Mikuday]

@@deveshbhagat2732 I haven't played in years so I genuinely don't remember

[@Rockstar-bq5fm]

Vladimir Kulich. He has a very recognisable voice. The 13th Warrior was one of my favourite films as a kid and hearing him in Skyrim was a real omg moment lol

[@rhysnichols8608]

I forgot how badass his voice was

[@mildlyfrostedbegels]

This video truly shows how the Civil War storyline could've been amazing. They had all the building blocks already there. When you listen to all the conversations between the military leaders after each quest, it shows great attention to detail and potential for conflict. All the characters were well developed, they had already worked on sieges, camps, politics, etc... Only thing is, the actual gameplay was trash, just go from one fort to the next, on and on. But it could've been so much better. Just look at the quest in High Hrothgar and the infiltration of the Thalmor Embassy. Those main story line quests show how great the Civil War could've been if given the same level of attention, resources and care. It's just a shame.

[@mmmmmmmm1942]

To be fair. It was 2011 lol

[@Geeler]

Even though Balgruuf would be the most sensible, and he's a good ruler, he's a bit of a fencesitter. The reason why he's not an option is because he might not help anyone in the end, since it's difficult to please both people who want to live in relative peace (at first), under oppression by the Thalmor, and people who want freedom against near impossible odds. Ideally though, now that I think about it, Balgruuf would be excellent in uniting Skyrim and joining the Empire against the Thalmor

[@ThisUserNameWasNotTaken]

Ol' gruffy balls the fencesitting nord

[@slendemanthetraitorcreepyp4519]

Balgruuf wouldn't be a good leader, think of the city itself the walls are crumbling. He goes out to drink a lot and doesn't care enough about his stewards advice on not doing that. He lets bandits roam his hold and giants attack the farmers cows.

[@BP-dn9nv]

I wouldn't call him a fencesitter as much as he didn't like either option. Siding with the empire would mean accepting thalmor interference, which he's strongly against. When it came clear he had to make a choice he goes with the empire but was sure tulius agrees to conditions he sets.

[@JLM-y5g]

"The World's Most Laughable Centrist"

[@TheLastKentuckyIrregular9524]

Idk. His own advisors point out that he was easily bought. And when he loses Whiterun, his main concern is that he will have to pay a ransom for his family.

[@unibrowsheepZ]

IMO the empire should just let skyrim seperate and then broker a mutual defence treaty (skyrim, cyrodiil, highrock, and hammerfell). Skyrim will be independent and cyrodill won't lose precious resorces on quelling the rebellions. The thalmor may try to make the empire fall, but if the empire's former territories stand with it against the thalmor anyways, then their scheming wont matter. Hammerfell has shown that the elves can be defeated. The Thalmor are not as strong as they want you to believe

[@georgevirtus]

It does disconnect the empire in two if Skyrim is independent. Humanity might have a lower chance to defeat the Dominion.

[@shorewall]

@@georgevirtus The Empire is not Humanity. When Skyrim leaves, the Empire is basically just Cyrodill.

[@jamesmccloud7535]

High Rock is still part of Cyrodiil and is quite loyal to the empire. Also half of skyrim is still loyal to the empire.

[@georgevirtus]

@@shorewall High Rock is still with the Empire. If Skyrim is gone how will the Empire function as a state if it's split? Anvil is useless due to the Dominion, going through the Topal bay would be considered dangerous due to Red Mountain, the Stormcloaks or the Dominion.

[@JamesTodorovich]

​@@georgevirtusthrough diplomacy with skyrim, skyrim isn't hostile to the empire, their hostile to the thalmor, who the empire serves.

[@kongilian]

The Gourmet will be missed more than Titus Mede II.

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

considering how more useful The Gourmet was than Titus the Incompetent not surprising

[@planetofthegames2843]

you guys clearly don't know anything about Titus Mede II

[@raph3699]

Calm down Amaund Mautierre

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

@@planetofthegames2843 the guy so hated; he participated in stolen valour (claimed he fought at the battle of the Red Ring but was actually the Forgotten Hero) lost Hammerfell, lost half of Skyrim and was assassinated by his own Elder Council. Yeah, dude has a legacy of failure

[@planetofthegames2843]

@@GenericUsername-qp1ww let's say Council did it for the Empire

[@ravendelacour1917]

The Empire in Skyrim compared to the Empire of the past is the Byzantine Empire to the older Roman Empire. It thinks it's the same Empire, calls itself the same Empire, but it's a fragment of the Empire that will slowly dwindle until it is a cultural remnant of a past age.

[@planetofthegames2843]

I'm reading about Byzantine Empire at the moment. It still was great and prosperous (not as Roman). I recommend to read about Belisarius and emperor Justinian. Byzantine Empire was not weak by any means

[@ethans9379]

Narratively, I think the Stormcloaks probably win, and gain independence for Skyrim, but this leaves the Empire potentially more vulnerable to the Thalmor

[@vonfaustien3957]

​@@ethans9379acurding to the CODA the Thalmor win wipe out the empire and than the Numidium pops back into normal time and wipes Nirn clean well the Dunmer and Khajiit hide out on the moons

[@ravendelacour1917]

@@planetofthegames2843 Since religious history is a hobby of mine and the Byzantine Empire was critical in the development of Christianity, I am familiar with its history. I agree that it wasn't weak, at first, but over centuries it dwindled until instead of a military superpower, it became a religious center and a trade hub for other cultures and eventually irrelevant. It was the biggest piece left after the fracturing of the Roman Empire and it held on for a long time but it was always on a downward spiral.

[@richter6699]

​@@ravendelacour1917 So it did what literally every great nation does. Amazing. The bloody Roman Empire did the same thing

[@donttrip8282]

How good is this game/franchise that you can still make engaging content like this years later and we are still here for it??!

[@excubitor3440]

Another thing that gets me with Rogvir...he's a guard on gate duty, the duel happened away from the gates (Blue palace if I recall correctly?). So he sees a man running from fellow guards, gets a few seconds to get things explained from Ulfrics PoV, and then opens the gate? No matter the legality of the duel, in that circumstance he is derelict of his duty in a major way.

[@abomination1753]

Well it’s probably the other way around. He didn’t open the gate for ulfric after the duel but before it. And ulfric most likely announced his intention in front of the gate.

[@Billabongbabalog]

"No matter the legality..." This man is a tyrant.

[@biscuitkeyboard]

​@abomination1753 I believe it is actually stated that he opened the gate after the death of the King. Crazy I never even thought about it though,could be a plot hole but guy was about to be decapitated so maybe he was convinced and just believes it was a fair fight because Ulfric said it was.

[@garrick3727]

Rogvir isn't an Imperial soldier, so his alliegence is to the king of Solitude, the High King. If the HK was killed in an honorable duel then Ulfric is the High King Apparent. Assuming Rogvir knows this, then he's not actually betraying anyone except possibly the Empire. If Nord law is that the duel was legal, then Ulfric did no wrong and can leave. If Rogvir prevents him, he's defying nord law. If he was ordered to not let Ulfric leave, then his guilt depends on whether you believe the Nuremberg Defense is invalid, "I was just following orders." In our world, if you know your orders violate the law, you can be held accountable if you choose to follow them. It seems likely the Stormcloaks would have executed Rogvir for this reason had he prevented Ulfric from leaving. From a nord perspective, however you cut it, it appears Rogvir did nothing wrong. His execution was a war crime. However, we don't know what the Empire's rules of occupation are. He could have been executed according to Imperial law. Which means he was damned whatever he chose to do.

[@garmrbanalras2579]

Isn't this simply an issue of conflicts between nord common law, and imperial law?

[@WonkyDonkus]

Can't overstate how much I enjoy these long form lore vids.

[@jaimeXDgo]

The civil war was the best written part of Skyrim's story by far. Not a mere power fantasy, or a good vs bad. No matter how you look at it, both sides are right in their own way.

[@JamesTodorovich]

Of course it was a good vs bad. You had the stormcloaks, and you had the sissy empire too weak to rule themselves but brand you traitors for wanting to rule yourself. The empire right now bends over and takes it up the ass from the thalmor, and yet tries to force it's control over others. I'll remind you the empire was winning at the end of the war, the emperor sold the empire out to spare cyrodiil the hardship of war, they even had to bribe local leaders such as jarls in order to keep them from rebelling. Hammerfell already proved the empire could beat the thalmor, they were simple too cowardly to try.

[@noodles24601]

One thing I don't see discussed a bunch which was kinda indirectly talked about here is that its very possible to be pro-independence without liking Ulfric. Personally I do pretty solidly prefer the Empire, but the Stormcloak side is full of people like Jarls Dengeir or Laila who have their misgivings about Ulfric personally but ultimately decide independence is worth empowering him. He definitely dominates the discussion, and understandably so, but in the end he isn't immortal or particularly young. Is that much consolation to the dunmer and argonians of Windhelm? No not particularly, but it is a part of looking at the conflict holistically. Another interesting idea is looking at the rebellion as something along the lines of a mercy killing or escaping a sinking ship. Like the video gets into even after everything that's torn the Empire apart its likely an anti-Thalmor alliance still forms from its pieces. So I could see an argument made that the Empire as it exists now is weaker than the sum of its parts as evidenced by their loss to the Dominion in the Great War and that an alliance of equals in its place wouldn't have the same points of failure that a united Empire would. Its does make sense that the Emperor in the Imperial City would sue for peace when that city was just barely defended. It was in fact, arguably the only acceptable course of action. However we see with the continued war in Hammerfell that just because Cyrodiil wasn't able to continue fighting doesnt mean the other provinces didn't have some gas left in the tank. Through this lens the Stormcloak Rebellion, if won quickly, uses the reprieve of the white-gold concordat to speed up the dissolution of the Empire in order to allow time for the now autonomous realms of men to reorganize and recuperate in a more durable form than they could have under a single emperor. I don't know that I completely agree with that reasoning and have enough grievances with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks at large to oppose them regardless, but I do think it gets treated as a foregone conclusion far too readily that a united Empire is necessarily better suited to fighting the Dominion.

[@shorewall]

I completely agree that a united Empire is weaker than the sum of its parts. Hammerfell drove the AD out and are still independent. That is what sticks in the craw of the Empire. If the Empire couldn't win when they had the belief of Talos uniting them, what will motivate them after 3 decades of heresy? There are children who are born and grown to adulthood with no knowledge of Talos. The Empire only seeks its own continuance, but it has no justification. Because it lost the war, because it signed the WG Concordant, it has abdicated its position as the defender of mankind. Because Hammerfell persists, because Skyrim is willing to fight, they show that the races and realms of men are stronger than the Empire. I'd argue that a nation of Cyrodil would also regain its vigor. The Empire became decadent and complacent. That is why they lost to the Thalmor. The fanaticism of the Thalmor needs to be matched by willing men and hardy. The Empire is similar to the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was considered the Universal Empire, under God and ordained by God. When it fell, it was because it couldn't get its armies to defend it. And in its place came new kingdoms, with vigor, who learned and took from the Roman Empire, but had the will to live and fight.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@shorewall Hammerfell did not ''drive the AD out'' - it struggled for five years to fight them to a standstill. It is canon that the entire Empire would've fallen without the Concordat. Also, Rome fell because it got fucked on all sides. It was literally located in Anatolia - a crossroads. They had the Catholic Kingdoms who fucked them from the west, and the Turks from the East. That comparison falls flat.

[@wolves600]

Ulfrics successor will likely be just like him due to the way the moot works And the stormcloak are framed for the assination of the emperor there is a good chance that destroys any chance of alliance between the two groups

[@OuhHey]

I don't think Skyrim would be weaker without the Empire Skyrim is borded by insane moutain range and other countries that the Aldmeri Dominion would have to cross first, before enterring Skyrim Skyim in itself is one of the least hospitable land in Tamriel and jts people are warriors and hates elves

[@apostleianlovelette]

Warriors who care more about their way of life than their coinpurses. Few people are as dangerous as one who doesn't care about getting paid to fight for what he believes in.

[@just_bladeok2041]

I wouldn't say that. While the moutains create a natural stronghold the cold land is an easily nullified aspect due to aldmeri magic and while skyrim has no shortage of willing fighters they lack funding and resources for equipment especially to deal with magic. We also have to remember the majority of stormcloaks are untrained due to being rebels they arent actual warriors and a majority of their funding comes from the aldmeri dominion itself

[@Priceluked]

The Dominion would attack via the sea most likely instead of the Pale Pass.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

​@@apostleianloveletteHistorically. Such peoples were always easy to conquer and annihilate.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@@just_bladeok2041 Magic isn’t that OP in Elder Scrolls on a 1V1 combatant basis. It’s also somewhat niche is not every caster is proficient in destruction or conjuration, as soldiers Altmer fall short on being physically able to hold frontlines for extended periods of time and wouldn’t be reliable to labor tasks that other armies can, they’d rely on Bosmer and Khajiit auxiliaries to be fodder. None of these do particularly well in melee where as Nords are exceptional warriors on average with a home field advantage. Also more importantly the logistics for a Dominion invasion of Skyrim would be abysmal, they’re on the other side of Tamriel so even coming in by sea would be ridiculous.

[@CrayonosaurusRex]

I always thought it would've been cool if, regardless of which side you chose, there would've been Thalmor agents showing up to directly interfere with the dragonborn trying to end the civil war

[@Emanon...]

I'm with the stormcloaks on this one. If I have to choose between denying what I believe at my core or destroy the integrity of an arbitrary state, I would choose the latter every single time. The empire can be rebuilt, people can rise up against occupation. But you can never take back betraying your core beliefs.

[@wolves600]

But the stormcloaks themselves also contributed to the outlawing of other religions so they are hypocrites

[@hoodie5004]

I’ll follow you to war anytime bud

[@koolaidman4869]

The Empire allows thalmor agents to kidnap Skyrim citizens for Talos worship and send them to what is essentially gitmo. That alone makes them unworthy of ruling Skyrim.

[@georgelove980]

I hope Skyrim and Hammerfell make a pact called the Sandy Snow Concordant

[@andynorth1776]

How awesome would it be for the Redguards and Nords to join forces, even picking up the Dunmer (who hate the Altmer also), and begin a massive conquest to push those filthy Thalmor back to their little island in the South.

[@james739123]

@@andynorth1776 this is one of the favourite potential stories I wanted told, with the Empire gone, Hammerfell reaches out to negotiate an alliance with Skyrim, and because of what the Dragonborn dose for the people of Solstheim, House Redoran and surprisingly House Telvanni are willing to throw their lot in to crate a new pact against the Dominion, Helgen can be re-taken and rebuilt as a trade hub since Helgen is between Falkreath and the Rift which are the closest to Hammerfell and Morrowind respectively, the borders between the provinces are open so we can advancer to places like Blacklight were you can stop a group of Argonian priest under the control of the An-Xileel harassing shipping routs and maybe broker a peace between them and have Black-March join this new alliance, or to Elinhir were you help the Crowns and the Forebears settle their differences once and for all so they can finally dive the Thalmor from Hammerfell.

[@prozoomy]

​@@andynorth1776if they did . Id hope they can get along. Because nords and red guards are like oil and water at times.

[@ReplicatorFifth]

\m/

[@ElderVault]

There’s one side of the fight for skyrim left out here: the forsworn. I really think that much like the great war, the forsworn plot line is being saved for the next elder scrolls game, especially if it’s hammerfell and high rock as many people suspect. Maybe it will be a DLC or something where we see that unfurl. Regardless, I would love to see a video like this one that talks about the future of the reach and the forsworn.

[@Jamseth_Ingramious]

Hammerfell and High Rock together? Daggerfall already did that. Personally, I'd like the next game to take place on the Summerset Isles so we can dismantle the Dominion from its very core, maybe even join the Psijic Order. A game set in Summerset would definitely need a revamped magic system, though, given how much it's been watered down over time.

[@teyanuputorti7927]

Great video thank you for keeping the community alive

[@bacd-nn2lg]

"By the Nine, I hate the waiting, the goddamned waiting."

[@gregharper6382]

15:02 as someone who likes to use analogies in day to day conversations I’m glad you did to make that clearer!

[@dephtons]

I can't believe you guys still do stuff, it's amazing. I've grown so much but you guys a still here, thank you for still making content

[@nonamegiven202]

Honestly I'm about 80% sure TEV VI is going to be us reforming the Daggerfall Covenant, circular stories and all, so for that alone my money is on the stormcloaks winning the civil war.

[@ReplicatorFifth]

I’d rather slit my wrists vertically than play another DC storyline.

[@adamtwamley293]

Great Video I look back fondly at a time when Bethesda was capable of complex and thought provoking story telling

[@alyailithyia]

These long videos give me life

[@christianproctor9582]

Its mentioned the empire isnt utilising all its resources to fight the stormcloaks, which means its totally possible the war hardly crippled the empire in the event of a stormcloak victory, and that a possibility of a later team up is still there. How many imperials died, lore accurately in the event of a stormcloak victory do you think?

[@mutegrab666]

Tullius even mentions he was only given half a legion to retake Skyrim. Minus the Battlemages Alduin killed in the beginning of the game.

[@miniman649]

@@mutegrab666 that is basically confirmed in the game. I think it is Legate Rikke who mentions they mostly rely on native Nords to fill their ranks, rather than soldiers from the empire.

[@danielsantiago3273]

If the stormcloak ending is cannon the post game starts with imperial legions marching in to bring order and crushing the fledgling state which probably ignites a new great war

[@JamesTodorovich]

The majority of losses are skyrim citizens, the imperials are losing maybe a 10th or 5th of their forces even if every single imperial soldier dies in skyrim, most of the men there are skyrim citizens raised for stormcloak or imperial cause.

[@JamesTodorovich]

​​​@@danielsantiago3273unlikely, the stormcloaks winning means a united skyrim, the empire would have to use the majority if not all of their legions to beat it, legions don't just magic themselves all the way across the world, if they could than skyrim would be easy to put down. What you see now is local militias, jarl troops, and levies of half of skyrim fighting half of skyrim and a legions or two of imperial troops. With a united skyrim they could raise a full proper army, and the empire would struggle to get through chokepoints to fight skyrim, that is why they can't send reinforcements right now cause of a storm blocking way or something if memory serves. If the empire fights skyrim, it means the death of the empire, they know it, skyrim knows it, the thalmor knows it. The blind and deaf even know it. The empire isn't capable of sparing more than a token force without risking half of the empire being overrun.

[@lucaalduino-kq9ww]

Historically the biggest problems for the high elves have been when the races of men stop squabbling and remember who the adversary is

[@rebornlich]

BABE WAKE UP, NEW FUDGEMUPPET ELDER SCROLLS CONTENT JUST DROPPED!

[@ErikrNorthman]

Ulfric and us Stormcloaks either wipe Skyrim clean, or we die trying. Ulfric is either victorious, or can be found in Sovngarde. He is speaking true, and is justified. However, I believe the Dragonborn may be the bridge that brings both the Empire and the Stormcloaks together. Perhaps we will see. Either way, victory, or Sovngarde. Skål! 🍻

[@pwesiti]

I love that you can still make content of this game this many years later.

[@Capt-Bloodbeard]

The Skyrim civil war is one of the few times I get so invested in politics I wish it was more than go to a fort and fight enemies.

[@SunsetStarship]

"Forget the list. He goes to the block.". The Captain chose for me. If you don't want to be my enemy, don't try to chop off my head.

[@chillycharizard5985]

So great to see a nuanced discussion that doesn't appear to take any bias. I'm so sick of hearing "Empire is cooked" and "Ulfric is racist."

[@6StimuL84]

The Empire tried to murder me for simply coming home to see my family, they picked my "side" in the struggle......

[@leekent3587]

I remember playing skyrim a good while back , and remember seeing information in the dossier when you go to the thalmor embassy that the thalmor do not want "Either" side to win the civil war so basically they're admitting that if the empire wins it strengthens the empire for round 2 and also if the stormcloaks win it means skyrim will probably launch a pre-emptive strike on the high elves/thalmor and catch them off guard perhaps?. Either way , i doubt in ES6 that the thalmor/high elves would of taken over tamriel again..don't most ES games take place 100 to 200 years after the last one or something like that?.

[@james739123]

ES Arena and Oblivion take place between 35 years of each other with the events of Daggerfall and Morrowind happening between them, Skyrim takes place 201 years after Oblivion.

[@scoliosis9478]

yea Skyrim is the only one with a major time jump like that. The first four all take place during the reign of Uriel Septim

[@mewillson]

By far, this is the best video you put together based on "The Elder Scrolls" lore. I have watched and listened to a lot of your lore and story based videos cover this subject area but this has been so well done. Very coherent, very well thought out, very interesting to learn the various perspectives that most of us never consider while playing the game. It is one reason I love the Rigmor Series by Jim. They are real stories based on interesting characters with lore, and depth and cover a lot of possibilities that could have been based on the lore that has been accepted as canon or close to canon. Thank you for the continuing this as I know it takes a lot of work to put these together. "May you live your life through moments, may those moments help you to discover treasures of true value, may those treasures sustain you in happiness all the days of your life."

[@PixelCupFootball]

Your guess that Ulfric is not the eldest child of his father because he was sent to the greybeards seems false since Ulfric himself at some point says he's the only child to the 'Great Bear of Windhelm'. He may be lying, but why would he?

[@tonys9397]

Yeah looks like the writers didn’t really think that one through

[@kaitoudark1]

Yep. That's author bias getting in the way of reliable narration.

[@A-Gaymer]

He might mean he's currently the only child. He could've still had siblings before the great war.

[@tonys9397]

@@A-Gaymer thats a good way to reconcile it

[@zonefreakman]

Did he say only child, or only son?

[@StrangestQuark2k]

One thing I don't think I ever saw mentioned before is that Ulfric as a practicioner of the Thu'um is likely to live significantly longer then usual, meaning that even if he is a 50 year old man, he likely has at least another 50 in him before succumbing to old age.

[@xbeast1997x]

Randomly had this recommended to me and decided to watch; Not even realizing who uploaded it lol. Was a very pleasant surprise to hear an old and familiar commentary :) glad to be back

[@takbanan619]

I feel like actually fighting the civil war was a the wrong thing of the empire to do. The ultimate bad guy is the thalmor, and i dont see Ulfric not helping the empire in a war against the thalmor. A win in skyrim for the empire will weaken skyrim as a millitary region for the empire a lot, and it will weaken the empire as a whole, maybe less than just giving skyrim away in a "civil war"

[@anonymousanon6913]

To be fair to the Empire I dont think they really had a choice in the matter. If Ulfric has behaved a bit more diplomatically and either convinced Toryyg to declare Skyrim Independent or having spared Torygg and became high King himself and declare independence then I think the Empire would be much less likely to intervene.

[@takbanan619]

@@anonymousanon6913 Thats very true, but as the posistion stands i feel like a small intervetion from the empire would be the tight way as they wouldnt loose as much. But the right choice would be the peaceful choice, and an alliance with the empire against the thalmor.

[@CalebMcGinty]

The empire is biding it's time. It currently can't fight the thalmor, and so thetormcloaks must be destroyed. Letting them riegn free would've invited the dominion, leading to either A) skyrim being destroyed and a week empire or B) the empire fights a war they will lose. No alliance would've helped at this point. Best they can do is secure skyrim, even if it's weaker. Also, by biding time, it allows other allies, skyrim included, more recovery.

[@anonymousanon6913]

@@CalebMcGinty This all assumes the Empire is actually concerned with going to war with the Thalmor and has doing so as a priority, which I dont see any proof of.

[@CalebMcGinty]

@@anonymousanon6913 there is. They've sent troops to the border with the aldmerie, and tullius mentions peace not lasting between the empire and the dominion after an imperial victory at windhelm. Also, they don't plan on starting it, the dominion will.

[@EpicPrawn]

34:38 I think Ulfric was probably an only son, and that perhaps being a Greybeard is a higher honor than being a Jarl's heir. With that said I want to devil's advocate that position and say that "his only son" could mean "his only remaining son." While this is unlikely, it's plausible enough that someone could reasonably consider it canon until proven otherwise.

[@shorewall]

It definitely could mean his only son, at the time.

[@someone-wo5nu]

yea, i understood it as only remaining son.

[@augustus6224]

You were right, because I knew it was complicated, but not AN HOUR AND A HALF complicated. Great work btw.

[@fireblast8972]

This game is over 10 years old and people are still debating the civil war

[@Mary_Beth_Reimer]

Thank you Fudgemuppet! I hope you and your families are doing well. 😊

[@TheNorthHawk]

I clicked on this video to let it run in the background and hear what you had to say, because it sounds really interesting as a premise. I was unfamiliar with your channel and hadn't been paying full attention clicking the thumbnail. When you said "we here at fudgemuppet" I choked on my drink, caught completely off guard. Well played. What a channel name.

[@jesseroberts7273]

Ah finally Skyrim. Fudgemuppet I have missed u.

[@nebeskisrb7765]

White-Gold Concordat is one of those things that bother me immensely every time I get reminded of it. AFAIK there is no precedent in real life history where a smaller state invades a larger state, after initial successes gets defeated in a pitched battle and then still managed to get the larger state to sign a peace treaty where it accepts its terms in their entirety. All the examples I can think of where a smaller state invaded a larger state successfully it usually relied on either a support of another large state (ex: Prussia during Severn Years War) or it waged a campaign of decisive victories, never giving the larger state to get its shit together (ex: England during Hundred Years War) or the large state was undergoing a civil war (ex: Sweden during Thirty Years War). By every metric Aldmeri Dominion shouldn't have the resources of the Empire. It has 3 provinces to Empire's 4. Empire's provinces are all Men and have been together for almost 600 years, so there is a sense of unity, whereas Aldmeri Dominion is a Altmer supremacist state that has relatively recently conquered Valenwood and Elsewyr. Empire's armies are populated by recruits from all 4 provinces (we've seen this in games) while I simply can't imagine Khajit serving in Dominion's armies. And this is assuming that all provinces have equal populations, where most likely case is that Cyrodil aloone had higher population than the entire Dominion, before the war. So when the Empire finally stopped the Aldmeri Dominion, supposedly completely crushing their army, WHY THE FUCK DID IT LITERALLY ACCEPT ALL OF DOMINION'S TERMS WHAT THE FUCK?! Literally every nation in human history would've continued the war and counter attacked, potentially even counter invaded Dominion. This is literally like if in our real history Great War, in 1914, the French stopped the Germans at the Somme and then immediately accepted a peace treaty where they let them have Belgium and give up any right to Alsace-Loraine forever.

[@wolves600]

The aldmeri dominion had a artifact that allowed them to instantly know the position of the enemy army which was advantages They may have fewer soldiers but they are far more experienced with generals needing centuries of experience to even qualify for promotion As for counter invasion Tiber septim himself with a united Tamriel needed the numidium to conquer summerset a empire without him or the numidium wouldn’t stand a chance

[@matthewmoser1284]

This is my all time favorite take on the Civil War!

[@codylego]

I thought the crux of the imperial’s argument was that the use of shouting made the duel illegal, no different to starting a duel by shooting your unprepared opponent with a boe

[@crandleberrysadie]

A lore video indeed. Thanks Scott! Hope you're well.

[@Sludgehammer138]

Man I'm out here just rocking on vanilla skyrim and still having a blast. I think I want to do a survival roleplay with a bunch of immersive mods though after this one

[@AgentSqueaky]

In my opinion I can see the Empire signing a peace treaty with Ulfric especially if Titus's replacement is more por Talos and anti Dominion.

[@badluck5647]

Doubtful. Ulfric seems unwilling to fight to defend the Empire or the Imperials wouldn't trust him.

[@GenericUsername-qp1ww]

Honestly in order for anything like you mentioned were to come to light then the Mede dynasty needs to die. They have proven far too corrupt and so if a new dynasty rose up and actually had a backbone but thats likely to never happen. Its hard to grow a backbone when you're in a land governed by weak leaders

[@connivingkhajiit]

I think it might be possible. Ultimately priority isn't really against the thalmor solely, it's for independent skyrim. If the empire, and as such the thalmor, are rid from Skyrim I could see his concerns against the empire ending at that extent.

[@TheLastKentuckyIrregular9524]

​@@badluck5647 More likely the Thalmor would attempt to attack Skyrim. The only way to invade for them is through Cyrodiil. They try to invade, the Empire betrays them, the Thalmor army is destroyed, and the Stormcloaks and Empire make peace. Pretty easy narrative.

[@badluck5647]

@@TheLastKentuckyIrregular9524 You know Skyrim has a coast?

[@bobbywesker6114]

The stormcloaks didnt try to execute me for the crime of trying to cross the border and stumbling into an imperial ambush. Siding with the stormcloaks just to kill that one captain at the start is worth it alone. The fact Hammerfell was able to fight off the aldmeri dominion as a seperate kingdom without the help of the rest of the empire also makes me think the empire could have won against the dominion, or at least fought for more favourable terms. Whatever their reasons, i think war would have been preferable. I believe that Skyrim, Hammerfall, and the empire should work together to destroy the elves, however. The thalmor are responsible for every life lost since the war began, and every life lost in the civil war for skyrim's freedom. We can only hope that their eventual downfall is absolute, with an elven genocide to make Pelinal Whitestrake blush.

[@james739123]

Here's how I think it should be if a Stormcloak victory 1: Skyrim and Hammerfell form a new alliance. 2: Because of the actions of the Dragonborn on Solstheim, House Redoran and House Telvanni sway the rest of Morrowind to join this new alliance. 3: Convince the An-Xileel of Black Marsh to join this new alliance (or let them join the Empire, either way doesn't matter so long as they don't join the Dominion). 4: Broker an agreement that allows High-Rock and Orcinium to remain in the Empire and keep trade wile acknowledging their independence. 5: Have the Empire attack and liberate Valenwood and the new alliance attack and liberate Elsweyr. 6: Combine forces to invade Summerset and finish the Talmor off once and for all. 7: Rejoice and be merry in victory, and let their be peace for a wile wile alliances can be finalised.

[@jamesmccloud7535]

Bro did you even watch the video before commenting here? Fudgemuppet literally mentioned that one of the reasons hammerfel was able to defend itself was because of help from the Empire and the countless imperials who died killing elves.

[@bobbywesker6114]

@jamesmccloud7535 Sure did. But that just reinforces my point: if Hammerfell managed to hold off against the thalmor with a little help from the empire, then the empire should have been able to win the war.

[@james739123]

@@bobbywesker6114 I agree by the time of Skyrim, the army's of the Empire would have been replaced with new recruits wile the Thalmor would still have minuscule new recruits, and instead of playing an attack on Summerset, he send please to Skyrim to basically oppress a people who largely don't want them there.

[@jamesmccloud7535]

@bobbywesker6114 There's a difference between successfully holding back the thalmor and winning. Hammerfell is still left in ruins with some Thalmor control on some parts of their land. Should've would've is all theory, the empire did try to win but they couldn't completely defeat the thalmor only give themselves enough time to recover and attack again. Everybody knows therr will be a second great war, a united empire is what it will take to win or some divine intervention. If the might of the empire with the help of hammerfell and skyrim wasn't able to defeat them, then what makes you think the stormcloaks with their inferior "military" and no use of magic would be able to. The best Skyrim could hope for is use hammerfell and cyrodiil as a meatshield and use guerilla tactics to hold off the thalmor invading but who knows how long. In order to truly defeat the thalmor you have to strike the heart which is Summerset isles. Skyrim with its non existent naval force, in ruins after a civil war, and after dragon invasion is almost in the brink of collapse economically. They can try getting hammerfell on their side although hammerfell also finds itself divided amongst itself at the moment and is also recovering. What the stormcloaks fought is but a drop of the empires full force because they have to have most of their troops in Cyrodiil because the thalmor can attack again st any moment. If the stormcloaks barely won against locally trained recruits by Tullius then they stand no chance at the full might of the empire taking back Skyrim, nor the Thalmor wanting Skyrim for itself.

[@ryangonzales7471]

You know Skyrim was an amazing game when it came out 13 years ago and it’s still a thing to talk about

[@Venom.mems0]

Finaly some one IS reviving this great game ❤🎉😢

[@planetofthegames2843]

as if it was dead

[@kenxinhxc1635]

Lol the modding community is active as fuck plus a lot of players still playing this game you can see that real time on steam

[@Venom.mems0]

@@kenxinhxc1635 nice

[@jorgedeanoperez2997]

God, this video was so utterly perfect. I cannot thank you enough for making it. You have voiced the thoughts that I have been voicing for 13 years with varying degrees of success in the quest of getting it through to my audience. There isn't a right or wrong side on this conflict, there's tons of reasons to support one and fight the other, and ultimately it's a matter of where your heart lies. I belong to a historically oppressed nation, culturally different from its hegemon, its identity eroded and replaced by that of our sovereigns. The call to defend Skyrim's freedom and identity from those that would see both stripped away for practicality resonated with me from the moment I saw the trailer and realized Skyrim was fighting a war for independence. Don't get me wrong, I love the Septims and their Empire, but when I played Oblivion all I could think of was of my first Hero of Kvatch, a Nord, returning home to stir a rebellion against imperial rule now that the last Dragonborn Emperor was gone. Skyrim was a dream made true when it came out and I could actually fight for Skyrim's freedom, and so many people are all too eager to call you a bigot for this choice (I'm disabled and bisexual, but being white is enough to being dumped in the same sack as them n4zis). From now on, instead of a tired rant on why I make my choice and why it is a legitimate one, I will refer them to this video. Thank you for making it ❤ Also, a point I rarely see brought up is the fact the Empire could barely survive the Dominion and lost a war to them with four provinces fully pacified, with their manpower intact and no civil unrest. Now people expect the Empire to be able to beat the Dominion if they defeat the rebels, as if they didn't have one full fewer province from which to pull resources and manpower, a very debilitated and restless Skyrim and a Cyrodiil that I expect to still be reeling from the Great War, and depleted enough that the Legion had to recruit any local that came asking in Skyrim due to their difficulties to replenish losses. Much as I love the Bretons, I don't see them carrying the war effort on their own, specially not with Thalmor agents and spies everywhere in the Empire predicting every move of the Legions prior to the war declaration. The most reasonable means of defeating the Dominion and the Thalmor would be through a coalition of nations in equal footing and allied for the purpose of their defeat, not through nations bound by bondage to a bruised hegemon keeping half of its only two subjects in chains, grumbling and bloodied after beating it into submission. But that's just me, heh

[@shorewall]

I think letting the Thalmor just walk around spying on everything and getting their agents everywhere is proof that the Empire isn't serious. We know they assassinate people, spread lies and propaganda. They want to encourage the Civil War, so why does the Empire let them move unimpeded, and harden opposition to the WG Concordant?

[@RomusSixgriffe]

A bit late to the party, but amazing work on this video. Both on the actual content and the form of the video !

[@wiecek13]

This is why Skyrim works and Starfield doesn't. There are deeper things to analyze when breaking down the conflict between the core factions. In Starfield there is no conflict between the core factions.

[@badluck5647]

Starfield feels empty.

[@chadwolf3840]

Another gem. Well done.

[@Geeler]

YOU'RE COAL!!!

[@checkthestache]

The kernel of the argument for me is this: The banning of Talos worship, along with other tyrannical conduct, by the Aldmeri Dominion is egregious. However, the only force capable of parity with the Aldmeri is a united Empire. If the Nords want any hope of winning their freedom from the true oppressors, then they must swallow their pride temporarily. The damned elves goaded Ulfric into doing exactly as they pleased.

[@tetriandoch4245]

I know I am kinda late with this comment but I expect the lore in TES6 to be: - Tullius wins the civil war - Tullius returns to Cyrodil, lauded a hero - No Emperor because he was assassinated - The Empire will turn into a republic, Tullius is one of the leaders (Consul?) - It will turn into three men being the most influential. (triumvirate) - Tullius becomes the most influential among the three and will be assassinated ("Et tu Brute!?")

[@eidoneverchoosen1171]

Like ceaser I can picture that.

[@wolves600]

I doubt it would become a republic as they already have rules for how to pick the next emperor the elder council gets to pick

[@tetriandoch4245]

@@wolves600 Doubting my expectations is fair. Personally I have always found Tullius to have parallels to Caesar which is the only reason I see this play out the way I described. I can also see the "imperial republic" only being temporary, as a way to showcase the elder council being devided. Some who are more opportunisticly inclined and wish to put an emperor on the throne that serves them better (e. g. the Thalmor and their supporters) , while others wish for an emperor that serves "the common people" (with the mindset of freeing the empire from the Thalmor).

[@wolves600]

@@tetriandoch4245 I could defiantly see a sort of republic in the sense that the elder council. Delays choosing a new emperor as long as possible to maintain a republic and perhaps tullius gets a seat after the death of Motierre or something

[@syrsafox32]

I prefer that the cease fire that happens during the Dragon Crisis is the end of the war. Skyrim is fractured and split in half like it already was at the start of the War, and that's how it remains.

[@Capt.Thunder]

If I was an elf, I'd be pissed off with humanity trying to overwrite Auriel's save file with Akatosh. Also, they do seek to end the world, not rule it ultimately, which is unironically a more achievable goal for them.

[@wolves600]

The end the world thing is a theory based on writings from a ex writer for Bethesda Michael Kirkbride So it could be true but it could also not be true

[@virdamofromko-metru1161]

It literally doesn't matter what they call him. Even Gelebor, a guy spending his extra long snow elven life to his worship says no matter what you call him, that's still the same guy. Still, Auri-El sucks. Lorkhan all the way.

[@Capt.Thunder]

@virdamofromko-metru1161 they turned him into a dragon and gave him a moderately different personality. They aren't exactly the same thing, they're only similar in broad strokes. lt's a noticeable difference, so Gelebor is coping a bit if you ask me.

[@jaceybenton]

Im happy you keep this alive bro. Thank you

[@DreamersOfReality]

I'd actually like to challenge the idea that the Empire is pragmatic. From the very beginning, they understood that the Thalmor desired them to become embroiled in a civil war. They KNEW, and yet still decided to prosecute a war that would only result in their enemy's empowerment by virtue of wasting resources and personnel. This is only "pragmatic", if one holds the irrational belief that only a Tamriel united beneath the yoke of Imperial rule, can stand against the Dominion. The Empire is so blinded by its hunger for hegemony, that they refused to even consider... allying with an indepedent Skyrim they simply cut loose. The idea that an indepedent Skyrim would sit out a second Great War is patently absurd. Disingenuous, even. However, the Empire is so used to sitting at the center of the world, at commanding, rather than cooperating, it never entered the calculus that another way was possible. They are so bogged down by Machiavellian realpolitik, that anything other than absolute authority is off the table. That is not pragmatic; it is disconnected from reality, and dare I say... idealistic.

[@dutchpatriot17]

The Stormcloaks are militarily inferior to the Legion.

[@gohantanaka]

There is actually some fairly clever political intrigue in Skyrim. The dominion intentionally drove a wedge between Skyrim and the Empire through the banning of Talos worship. And the documents you find in the Aldmeri Embassy saying they’ve secretly supplied the stormcloaks so they can fight the Empire to a standstill is reflective of Real world politics. Where the story fails (from a player POV) is there is no way to bring this to the Empire or Ulfric Stormcloak. Where Ulfric fails… is not talking to the High King. That may have better united Skyrim.

[@Scoob117]

Still glad yall still put out Skyrim content after all these years been listening to you guys for the past 5 years. 🔥🤙🏽

[@napdragon94]

The prophets of the nine Divines have returned! Long live the Empire!

[@SleepinGriffin]

Praises the Nine, but praises the empire in the same breath who forsaken the ninth for the betterment of the emperor’s rule and the thalmor/dominion.

[@t8kabr8km85]

Babe its time for another 200 hour skyrim playthrough because i watched a lore video

[@idipped2521]

Instead of playing Skyrim again I’m finish a Morrowind and oblivion playthrough

[@marcopico7074]

Amazing lore video, a work of dedication and love to the series, thank you 👏

[@check_karma8549]

2:03 Getting hit with that chain lightning looked like hell.

[@Serahpin]

3:20 "Torygg had no choice but to accept the duel, otherwise they'd call a moot to vote for a new leader" Was he so insecure of his position that he didn't think he'd be re-elected?

[@badluck5647]

Torygg was traditional and honorable. It was a characteristic that a devious Ulfric used against Torygg to get the High King into a fight where Ulfric brought a gun (Thu'um) to a knife (sword) fight.

[@mirr0rmirr0r]

Probably.

[@nip3004]

I'd argue he was overconfident in his ability to win the duel. Even if he knew he'd be reelected the turmoil the election would cause would not have been good with everything else going on.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@nip3004 Nah, Torygg says quite clearly that he could not escape his fate. He accepted the duel because Torygg is a Nord of honor.

[@zaydmuminuun]

Played Skyrim through primary (grades 3-6) school and high school (grades 7-12) throughout primary school I was Stormcloak. When I went through High School I did my 2nd ever Nord build thinking I’d be a Stormcloak again (1st Nord, 2nd Redgaurd, 3rd Breton, 4th Khajiit and this being my 5th ever play through) This time around I began to read all the books I’d find making for a truly slower play through, I did this with my Breton but missed a lot. This time around I began to really think about the evidence, most of which you mentioned. I was at a point when I had the jagged crown, and was doing the Thalmor mission, as soon as I read the dossiers I gave the crown to Tullius, effectively changing sides. My Khajiit was imperial for selfish reasons but my Nord was imperial for the reason that he hated the Thalmore and saw an opportunity to join the battle with the Empire, he believes if the Great War were to start again, he’d be able to turn the tide

[@hybrix]

Perfect timing for new Fudgemuppet