Who is actually the best free-kick taker of all time?

[@chazmaru9583]

Juninho was such a nightmare… So glad we don’t get to face him in Ligue 1 every season anymore. Pretty much a goal guaranteed if you dared foul a Lyon player within 30m of your own posts.

[@FootballAndSuch]

I never got to see him. was he really that effective? sounds like a footballing genius. respect.

[@stephenpalmer9375]

@@FootballAndSuch he honestly was amazing at dead balls. I think here in the UK he got as much credit as there was the other Juninho (Paulista) who was active here. A good, but very different player.

[@ericbortolato7627]

​@@stephenpalmer9375 fun facts: Juninho Paulista is currently a coordinator with the Seleção and Pernambucano has become sort of a political activist.

[@santiagobauza4257]

@@ericbortolato7627 He's also Lyon's director of football. Not a very good one by the looks of it.

[@FobbyTox]

Exactly. People who don't remember that era can't really understand how intimidating Juninho was. It's not about the numbers here. The angle or the distance didn't really matter.

[@Hogiebear7]

In Pirlo's book, he goes into massive detail about how, in his latter years, he spent such a long time trying to study and copy Juninho's style of free kicks. Imagine being so good that even Pirlo wants to be like you!

[@gandalf_thegrey]

This is way too good to be true!

[@MrCommanderPyro]

@@gandalf_thegrey apparently pirlo wrote about it in his book

[@_Vancelvany_]

@@gandalf_thegrey In Pirlo's thesis/book, he mentions admiration for Juninho in great detail

[@heijimikata7181]

Apparently, Pirlo likes a lot of fellow players. Pirlo said he would regularly pick Barca in FIFA, the same people whom he faced in real life.

[@nickfury8973]

Juninho was Real Madrid’s biggest bully. Him and the Lyon side kept Real Madrid in round 16 for a few seasons. That Lyon side was PSG level without PSG money

[@asianwarrior2193]

he literally earned real madrid the title of the round of 16 club lmao

[@jaymo3205]

@@asianwarrior2193 They actually only knocked Real Madrid out of the Champions League once in 2009/10 - after Juninho had left Lyon. They played them in the group stage a few times but never prevented them from qualifying for the knock out stages.

[@MrVvulf]

Before Juninho came to Lyon, they had NEVER won Ligue 1. In his 8 years at Lyon, they WON Ligue 1 7 times in a row. Since Juninho left Lyon, they have NEVER won Ligue 1 again.

[@Soulwhistle]

@@MrVvulf ehm - the french league isnt called La liga....

[@MrVvulf]

@@Soulwhistle Ligue 1, fair enough. It doesn't change anything about Juninho's impact at Lyon.

[@erebus7205]

The goal keepers that had to see Andrea Pirlo, David Beckham and Ronaldinho step up for a freekick at AC Milan was one of the most ridiculous things I’ve seen. Goosebumps

[@lifeisblessed4802]

And Del Piero.....Juninho is the best ive seen tho

[@primocalcio2141]

Pirlo was a disciple of Juninho. Didn't quite reach his level of consistency but he mastered the curler, top-spin, and knuckle-ball techniques. Scored 45 of them in his senior career, though I'm not sure of his conversion rate.

[@yannick245]

@@primocalcio2141 _'A disciple"_ Such bs. There's no indication for that.

[@primocalcio2141]

@@yannick245 Well if you take it literally, mate. "Disciple" being used as a descriptor of Pirlo's devotion to studying and learning Juninho's techniques. The indication of that is in Pirlo's autobiography where he writes about it.

@@yannick245 Pirlo himself said he studied Juninho's technique intensively.

[@KrisGK96]

Zico and Mihajlovic are heavily underrated, Juninho was inspired by Zico, and Zico was the first player to consistently score on freekicks, Juninho perfected it, and made it an art.

[@SuperCacazinho]

Pelé was the first.

[@Sohil876]

@@SuperCacazinho no didi was iirc

[@moon_aysha]

what was zico and mihajlovic conversion rates?

[@bushmonster1702]

I was the first. I’m 300 years old.

[@andrepassos6798]

zico just around the area....

[@jacko446]

Nakamura needs a mention, he had roughly 50 free kick goals in the 21st century including two against Man United in the champions league

[@Nayson]

Love that he then went on to have a successful run as an upper mid card professional wrestler and he looks amazing in leather trousers.

[@fmarinosfromafar9512]

Shunsuke scored 69 free kick goals (through to 2017) as a professional player and as a youth and senior representative player. He may not be “the best”, but he’s my favourite.

[@bertiemunn129]

not bad for a grandmaster chess player

[@graham2954]

pish

[@janshkreli2172]

Isn't he a chess player now? /s

[@declanfrew6958]

I remember watching Juninho in his time at Lyon and thinking this guy is the best free kick taker I've ever seen. There was a rumour that keepers stopped arranging a wall so they could see the flight of the ball, not sure how true it was but definitely adds to the sentiment

[@Apfelstrudl]

Removing the wall is something i remember Oliver Kahn mentioning/recommending trying for far range shots.

[@darshanv5200]

The last sentence reminds me of the Messi free kick discussed in the video. When Messi took that free kick vs Espanyol, the defenders did not arrange a wall and were scattered around the penalty box for the same reason you mentioned. It's the reason Messi chipped the ball rather than shoot it. And if defenders have done it for Messi, it's a good guess to assume they did it for Juninho as well.

[@darshanv5200]

Ok turns out I am wrong about one thing. Espanyol players created a wall for that free kick mentioned in the video. But I remember watching a Barca match where players did not form a wall so that the keeper will be able to see the ball all the way. I don't remember if Messi scored that but yeah, not arranging a wall is a tactic teams use occasionally to avoid conceding goals during free kicks.

[@sebasperez23]

@@darshanv5200 if i remember correctly i think in that case messi chipped the ball to assist suarez, who did score

[@herrerasauro7429]

The wall thing happened pretty similar when Zico went to Italy, where keepers arranged a wall with a hole in middle so they could see the curve of the ball. In the documentary that Zico talks about this, he just scoffs and answer "I just rifled the ball into the net then, they thought I knew only one style of free kick".

[@toluabisola]

This was really good. Someone who knows what he's talking about given the freedom to share his knowledge, its given me lots of stuff to think about regarding free kick takers

[@chinortega3]

He was a bit of a buzz kill in some aspects because nobody else can be Juninho lol but loved the knowledge

[@aryamanmani4025]

As a Spurs fan, every-time I see Harry line up for a free kick, I genuinely fall onto my knees in disappointment.

[@callum2474]

As a spurs fan, I genuinely fall onto my knees in disappointment

[@snowsnow1009]

Doesn't Dier take free kick for Tottenham?

[@INAChinook]

Member when he took corners and free kicks for England

[@aryamanmani4025]

@@INAChinook It's not as surprising with hindsight, because his passing is exceptional. No doubt however it was one of the worst decisions I've seen form a coach/manager.

[@aryamanmani4025]

@@snowsnow1009 He does now, been very unlucky with goals. It's just that when Dier misses one, Harry steps up for the next 3. I wonder why we haven't got Sonny on them at all.

[@micahkiyimba8641]

Juninho..He could hit all types.

[@sandychristie9712]

The free kick I'll always remember is pirlo hitting the bar with a knuckle ball in the World Cup. Nobody has given Joe hart nightmares quite like him

[@juwankane5150]

Claudio Bravo gave him some nightmares at City

[@dude99844]

Same, the first player I've ever seen that outer curled a ball with his inner foot

[@JPayne95]

Wasn't a knuckle ball he used his instep-heel and it was incredible

[@bebianobr]

There is an interview that Pirlo says that he studied Juninho's way to kick the ball

[@Nayson]

Still remember Thierry Henry doing the punditry after the game joking that Pirlo is so good he probably decided to hit the bar on purpose.

[@JeKramxel]

Any data for Mihajlovic? At least for a couple of seasons, he seemed to be the ultimate threat on free kicks. Still remember his free-kick hat-trick.

[@amanpushkar1249]

Scored 67 free kick goals and most in serie A (alongside pirlo) ahead of del piero, totti, etc.

[@lordfizzz]

They all sleeping on serie a

[@lesq555]

Was about to comment about him, Sinisa was really good.. also Kolarov

[@SurferWilly]

He should be up there somewhere inside top 3. Juninho is nr 1

[@gentleken7864]

Juninho every day of the year. The fact that other great free kick takers learned from him, tells you all you need to know. There was an interview with Pirlo about the day he realised Juninho's secret and since then he himself came a great free kick taker.

[@andyhills9972]

I think if we took Bartek to the Sistene chapel he’d be like ‘This is poor painting technique, not as good as Juninho Pernambucano’s free kicks!’

[@TwoMorningPoops]

He'd be right

[@Llekamania]

😭😭😭

[@moon_aysha]

@FriedIcecreamIsAReality it was not about his freekicks but his consistency and high conversiin rate

[@MrVvulf]

To be fair, Juninho could have done the painting without a scaffold. Just put some paint on the ball, and he'd kick it where the color needed to go.

[@ericbortolato7627]

Marcelinho Carioca was so unbelievably good! He was called "The Angel Foot" over here, and not just by us Corinthians fans. I got to see him scoring an amazing and iconic free kick against Palmeiras in the State Championship Final of 1995. Mesmerizing, specially watching it as a child!

[@sargonsblackgrandfather2072]

Yeah I remember seeing him put curve on free kicks that almost defied physics

[@jucalebre7540]

Vai Corinthians

[@jvliverpool873]

I believe he was also he the inspiration for people such as David Luiz Juninho and Assuncao

[@cg40k]

He was so good at free kicks.

[@SuperCacazinho]

Vai Corinthians !

[@paulbismuth10]

Juninho used to train with the ball of each of his opponants. Apparently in league 1 every clubs had his own type of brand at that time. And he convinced Lyon to aquire all the brands and train the week before with the ball he would use the next week-end.

[@dislecsyk991]

If that's the case, and I'm not doubting you, you would think it would be standard practise for every club to prepare for a game with the upcoming match ball.

[@paulbismuth10]

@@dislecsyk991 at that time in the 2000ies it was apparently not the case or Juni wasn't the only one to do it (or he just said he was the first). I hope i understood what he meant and to be fair it's an old memory. However he was very dedicated to his craft and the best.

[@LMarcon11]

I'm kinda surprised Rogério Ceni still ranks at #2. He was a threat for other teams whenever there was a foul close to the box. The fans would cheer so much when he crossed the field from his goal to take the FK. He's my childhood hero and now he's the manager of the only team he played ❤️

[@herrerasauro7429]

Honestly, the most impressive thing about Ceni as a freekick takes is the fact he was rarely punished by being a keeper. I remember his kicks AND IT ALMOST NEVER stopped on the wall, which would give the opposing team a chance to score, it either was on goal or over the top. This kind of mastery and care is absolutely not trivial, he kicked with a handicap and still was able to be one of the most prolific of all time.

[@LMarcon11]

@@herrerasauro7429 I can remember only two instances that he got punished and I watched or listened in radio to most matches from 2005 and on. One was a meaningless game against a countryside team and they failed to score and another time against our rival Santos for the Brazilian league, a match that ended 1-1 if my memory doesn't trick me. He was a master at his craft and I really miss good FK takers in our league

[@Sohil876]

By conversion rate i dont think he'd rank #2, i think zico or sinisa would be ahead of him, obviously juninho would still be #1.

[@moon_aysha]

what was his coversion rate since you saw him play can you atleast remember roughly how many times he missed before putting the ball in the net

[@luccavalentinw.fiorini2302]

@@moon_aysha I would say about 10-12%. He did scored a lot of goals, but not everytime, being a GK he always tried to shoot with a high ball to not beign punished. Still worst than Ronaldinho, Juninho, Marcos Assunção and Marcelinho Carioca tought. I'm proud to be Brazillian man, the 3 best FK takers according to a specialist are brazillians and the 3 with most goals are also brazillian. And this is only from this century, if we take to XX century there are also the likes of Zico, Pelé. Falcão, Garrincha and Rivellino who were also great FK takers

[@GhostOfBr]

The knuckleball is a technique that was called Folha Seca, and was invented by 1958 World Cup mvp Didi, who was a great free kick taker. He did knuckleballs even when taking penalties and with the game ongoing. His shots had erratic trajectories wich made keepers terrified of facing him. It is something so rare that only Juninho can be said to be a true master of the technique (Cristiano Ronaldo tries to spam it without rhyme or reason).

[@Alexeiyeah]

Pelo que eu saiba, a Folha Seca também envolvia uma grande ascenção da bola com rápida descida, além do efeito.

[@GhostOfBr]

@@Alexeiyeah a folha seca é um chute de efeito errático. Mas Didi também sabia fazer a bola cair rapidamente, como fez nas eliminatórias sulamericanas da Copa de 1958 contra o Peru.

[@MrVvulf]

CR7's conversion rate on free kicks is under 9%. As you say - without rhyme or reason. Good statistics on missed kicks were not kept in Juninho's era, but as the expert noted, watching him practice, Juninho could hit his target MOST of the time, not just some of the time.

[@damasek219]

I shot knuckleballs as a little child before I ever knew any of those players and before I've seen it on TV. It just felt natural.

[@dlo11794]

JWP, Totti, Beckham, think we missed a key issue, free kicks isn’t only scoring but also who can whip in a ball for an assist

[@galois6569]

Yes. The whole team can be involved though so a lot more things go into that stat than into free kick goals.

[@nikhilpratapsingh6631]

Totti like Messi had areas of best execution a good scorer anyday but not from all range

[@akunwanneprosper7016]

We compared Direct Free Kicks

[@stephenpalmer9375]

They are only talking about direct free kicks. I'd love to see a similar analysis on indirect ones

[@mesicek7]

Totti didn't have the consistency. Sure he scored a few bangers but they were far less common. He has less than 20 free kicks to his name

[@zimrimayfield]

I don't think stats work that way or do they? Ward-prowse can't be statistically a better free kick taker than Messi because his conversion rate is 14% while Messi's is 10% We have to see what Ward-Prowse's conversion rate is after another 130 attempts... Something makes me think his conversion percentage won't be 14% after another 130 shots. Isn't that similar to a Movie having a 5 star review but only being reviewed by 2 people? idk, maybe it does work that way, but something makes me think he definitely can't keep up a 14% conversion rate for another 130 shots.

[@Gaboxxy96]

What you are referencing is called the Law of the Large Numbers. In the simplest words I can think of, and don't quote me on this because I'm not a scientist, the larger the sample of trials, the more probable the results are to reach their true value. For instance, if you flip a coin 10 times, maybe you get head 8 times and tail 2, and that could make you think that you are overall more likely to get heads; but if you flip a coin 1,000,000 times, the results are more likely to closely resemble a 50/50 heads/tails respectively, which represents the true probability of getting a head or a tail. In the case of Messi's free kicks, with the amount of shots he's attempted, it's only natural his average is comparatively worse than other players that had more than 100 less attempts than him.

[@MenWithVen]

Rogerio Ceni 59 goals.....from a goal keeper!

[@williamwren4006]

Well that's just his free-kicks m8. Let's not talk about the penalties.

[@josephtipping2830]

Chilavert deserves a mention too, for doing it at the highest level

[@lukemclellan2141]

@@josephtipping2830 are you implying that Rogerio ceni wasn't doing it at the highest level? I'm curious, not looking for an argument 😁

[@josephtipping2830]

@@lukemclellan2141 Nah, I'm not explicitly saying that, but Chilavert was taking free kicks at the World Cup and scored 8 international goals

[@lukemclellan2141]

@@josephtipping2830 he was a decent 'keeper too. Remember discovering him on transworld sport playing for Velez

[@menandroplan1554]

I agree Messi isnt the best pure striker of the ball, but his placement and ability to curve the ball with pinpoint accuracy to score is sublime

[@BenSilver10]

You can drop the technical aspect of striking the ball with such accuracy as Messi.

[@michaeltrumph121]

Plenty did it better.

[@cleitonsilvasantos5587]

Zico could be here as a horable mention. Zico was the "Free-Kick Man" in Brazil before Juninho, Assunção, and Marcelinho (this one started his career when Zico was close to retirement and got his "blessing" to become a great free-kick taker) and became an inspiration for a generation. I understand he isn't there because he has played almost his entire career for Flamengo (BRA) and a few years for Udinese (ITA) in the 80's, but I miss him here...

[@Raphael11001]

Zico was a fantastic free kick taker, but he didn't have the same range or conversion rate. He deserves a mention for being the first "specialist", but in terms of technique he was limited to short-medium range and his average ball speed was comparatively low. He was just really good at placing the ball right next to the posts, in an era where it was rare to take consistent free kicks on target.

[@patinho5589]

@@Raphael11001 different tech then to now too.

[@felipealbanit9233]

That kind of free kick that Juninho perfected was actually popularized (or maybe invented?) by Didi, a super popular brazilian player from the 50s and 60s (he was awarded as the best player in the 1958 world cup). He called it "the dry leaf kick" due to the unpredictability of the ball's route. He was certainly an inspiration.

[@MrVvulf]

Juninho has stated in interviews that it was Marcelinho Carioca who inspired him to learn the knuckleball. Marcelinho scored 80 free kick goals in his career.

[@felipealbanit9233]

@@MrVvulf well, if you were in Brazil during the 90s Marcelinho was an unavoidable inspiration for free kick takers. I'm a Corinthians fan and I'm lucky that the majority of these 80 goals were scored using a Corinthians shirt. :)

[@Gaboxxy96]

@@MrVvulf I know this is an old comment, but what's the source on that? In every source I've seen, Juninho is the most prolific free kick taker with 77 goals.

[@MrVvulf]

@@Gaboxxy96 A lot of statistics that come from Brazil's leagues aren't looked at by the larger media. For me, Juninho is still the best free kick taker, and the exact number of goals doesn't matter. My most fervent wish is that conversion rate had been tracked since the 1950s. Sadly, that's not the case. Overall number of goals isn't nearly as important as conversion rate. Some may look and say "Messi scored "XX" free kicks", but never look at the fact he took 4-5 times more free kicks than Juninho.

[@benjaminjeffery6873]

Messi’s 30 / 35 yard free kick against Liverpool I thought was pretty outrageous, was inch perfect for a curler. He does get a lot of power for a little guy.

[@anakinstarlord]

The power behind the shot and the ball placement was top notch.

[@yourguy382]

Took a small deflection

[@JonathanFingers]

@@yourguy382 No it didn't.

[@danielsgrunge]

@@JonathanFingers it did, didn't change anything cause he would score regardless and the ball's trajectory didn't change but it did touch the guy's shoulder very lightly, you can easily see it in slowmo that the ball's spin changes by a little bit

[@JonathanFingers]

@@danielsgrunge No you can't, depending on the angle you can see it clearly go over Gomez' shoulder without touching.

[@drwaielmekki]

A player who was not mentioned here, and was one of the five who scored a hattrick of goals from free kicks, is Lazio left back Siniša Mihajlović. That guy was a monster from a free kick. He was in the same period of Assensio and Juninho and was on par with them for sure.

[@markusz4447]

He scored a Free-Kick-Hattrick in a Serie A game

[@SamyadeepPurkayastha]

this is a messi PR page irl, that's why

[@yannick245]

@@markusz4447 If I remember correctly that was at Inter.

[@mrplatinum5987]

@@markusz4447 twice

[@aldobonaso3481]

I'd be interested to know this guy's opinion on Pirlo, who admitted he studied 'best free kick taker ever' Juninho's technique, and could score from pretty much anywhere. He had the knuckle ball, he had the bend, he had the outside of the foot reverse bend, he had the top spin, he had so much in his locker. One of the best in my opinion. But something that this expert is missing, is the fact that technical ability is not the only measure of a brilliant free kick taker, but understanding and reading of the game. Hitting the ball under the wall, or taking a cheeky chip over the wall, is still part of the arsenal of a good free kick taker. It's the mental side of it. Technically maybe another player is better than you, but if you understand how to catch the opposition off guard...and end up scoring more free kicks as a result...then fair play to you.

[@marcellouchoa2615]

Pirlo was great of course, he was talking about Juninho in the video but Marcos Assunção was really insane. Really insane. Both scoring and assisting.

[@MetricSuperstar]

"Hitting a knuckleball has since become a technical skill desired by many free kick takers, but very few have mastered it. Among the exceptions are Cristiano Ronaldo, who using the knuckleball scored some spectacular free kicks throughout his career, and Andrea Pirlo, whose inspiration was Juninho himself and whom he tried to imitate." From his website, so I'd guess he's a fan of Pirlo!

[@aldobonaso3481]

@@MetricSuperstar oh sweet! Thanks for that info. It makes sense, because this free kick expert seems to be a big fan of the technical, and not many were as technically gifted as Pirlo (not only talking free kicks, obviously). But thanks for confirming that.

[@midniteauthor]

He did an interview with The S*n and he had this to say about Pirlo "Take Andrea Pirlo, as an example. He admitted in his autobiography that he learned how to take a free kick by watching Juninho. He developed a very good swing, but there are still some things he could've done better. The point is, what he was able to learn took a very long time because he wasn't coached. Pirlo was a good free kick taker throughout his career, but it was at the back end of his career that he was at his technical best, using swings he did not use before."

[@aldobonaso3481]

@@midniteauthor But can we trust the S*n? 🤣 But what this guy says is true, Pirlo did become more of a free kick specialist later in his career, as he refined his technique. His ability to pass the ball and dictate a game, was just majestic to watch though, and his free kicks were just a bonus.

[@xavier.mauricio]

Juninho is a well-known phenom in Europe but don't sleep on the other guys Bartek mentioned. Marcelinho Carioca is a two-time champion of the Brazilian league, elected best player in Brazil in 1999, the highest assister, fifth-highest scorer and possibly biggest icon in the history of one of Brazil's biggest clubs. His nickname was "Pé de Anjo", which translates to "Angel-footed", and much like Juninho he could hit free kicks with terrifying force, precision and change of direction. Hell of a player.

[@willcraft9184]

sad that it wasn't even Mentioned Ceni was a GK!

[@aaronthompson7330]

Yeah I was waiting for this to come up!

[@Tbeumo]

I think it's a common knowledge.

[@leandrometfan]

@@Tbeumo He's my all time favorite player and you dont know how much I'm happy that he's treated as "common knowledge" nowadays. Imagine if he played in Europe

[@joaocanabrava8500]

@@leandrometfan I'm could be happy knowing that at least Gerrard knows him

[@zaphodlucs]

Marcos assunção was impressive. On the field even older in Brasil he was worth to put on the pitch because of his free kicks alone. Bought him 3 years of playing time

[@bartassef]

He carried that terrible Palmeiras team with his free kicks.

[@michaelconnolly9904]

Really interesting discussion and great video topic. I was a little disappointed at the amount of evidence used to support the arguments. Aside from the “top-spin” “knuckleball” ability criteria, it didn’t seem like there were many objective metrics used to support saying one player is good and another player is bad. For example Coutinho being deemed good for scoring 5, but not having taken many free kicks relative to the other leaders, and therefore having a high conversion rate seems like a possible sample size bias. Also I’m all for the top spin technique being awesome and potentially better but I feel I would be much more convinced if the video showed evidence that top spin efforts were more successful than curlers rather than just saying they better because theyre faster and the specialist coach likes them better. Seems like a missed opportunity to make a strong argument and compelling point

[@DanielSanGV]

This video is very interesting but I'm most impressed they got Bartek to talk about free-kicks, who i never knew about before playing Football Manager, just because he is a great attacking coach in the game and was very cheap in past iterations of the game so i always got him on all my saves.

[@raimarulightning]

I would love to have heard a breakdown of David Beckham's ability as a free kick taker

[@nikhilpratapsingh6631]

Beckham's technique is more about adding spin and bending ball kinda good in his early days though he remains as an expert throughout his career

[@jimbojimbo6873]

Beckham had zero top spin

[@lukemclellan2141]

@@jimbojimbo6873 isn't top spin required to bring the ball down quicker? Beckham scored a few free kicks that dropped very quickly after clearing the wall.

[@KindredBrujah]

@@lukemclellan2141 Yeah, 'zero' is an exaggeration, but he didn't apply it consistently.

[@tonylipsmire5918]

The fk specialist guy kinda sounds silly. Beckham didn’t have much knuckle or topspin but was undoubtedly a great fk taker. When you’re able to generate as much curve on the ball as him you don’t need multiple techniques to be great

[@ettavictor4804]

I'm intrigued by the volume of Brazilians on the list, and in the conversation in general. I never thought this was also in their domain.

[@dondaddan]

From Rivelinho onwards they turned an art into a science, Zico, Eder, Branco etc

[@jonnyso1]

Not so much lately sadly, but I feel free kick goals in general haven't been that common in recent years, don't know if I'm just imagining it.

[@necromax13]

​@@jonnyso1 You're not imagining it.

[@necromax13]

it is in fact their sweet science. It's part of the jogo bonito ecosystem.

[@Halpert98]

Marcos Assunção literally saved Palmeiras from relegation through freekicks

[@ShiftyGeeza]

I don't know why but I've always found it so satisfying watching keepers crumpled up against the goal posts with their legs up in the air after floundering an attempt at stopping a Juninho free kick.

[@jochenklausberger9076]

Haven't watched but very recenetly read an article about Roberto Carlos who maybe hurt Real Madrid by taking so many free kicks after his knuckleball against france, as he took freekick duties off of guys like Figo, Zidane or Beckham.

[@KindredBrujah]

Yeah, he definitely wasn't as good as that one wonder shot made him look (and, I suspect, believe himself to be).

[@molh394]

@@KindredBrujah reminds me of how Rivelino pointed out how, if Roberto Carlos is such a good free kick taker. What's the other good free kick goals he took besides that wonder impossible goal? They're lacking cos it was due to luck.

[@havokanddisorder]

That goal against France wasn't a knuckleball

[@distantant]

I'm pretty sure he also took free kicks away from Juninho in the Brazilian team as well at times. In his later stages of his career, he was living off hype on free kicks more than anything . . .

[@chadkeane8085]

I am no free kick taker analysis, but even i know that freekicks are very situational... To use only data to and technique to determine how do a freekick taker is isn't telling the whole story for each freekick... That Messi free kick the analysis mentioned was in my opinion very intelligent... If you watched the game and that run of play Messi realized that the defense was not organized in setting up the wall to defend said freekick, Messi had taken notice of the miscommunication and disorganization of the team to setup a simple wall and he took advantage. All i am saying is that just like other aspects of football where stats dont tell the whole story i think this is also a similar aspect.

[@rafekatchadorian465]

yeah he was saying he wasn't a great technical power striker which could be true but he made for it with placement. I remember one he shot in 16/17 in La Liga in the same manner and it just swooshed the outside of the post.

[@maximilianovazquez9988]

Am I the only one who felt the guest was incredibly pompous? "At least Messi is choosing no to hit the ball hard, which shows SOME level of inteligence..." Like dude, how can you be so condesending to literaly the player with the most free kick goals in activity?

[@me24469]

Yup.. i tot Mihaijlovic would be up there for best free kick takers. That guy scored a hat trick from free kicks. Another player I thought would be mentioned was Michel Platini, he was pretty deadly from free kicks i think. Honorable mentions: Gheorghe Hagi, Ronald Koeman, Zico

[@shakey215]

if it wasn't Juninho I thought Mihaijlovic was going to be noted as the best too.

[@anxiousmindmusic]

Mihaijlovic is still the all-time leading free-kick scorer in Serie A

[@riccardomartinelli885]

sinisa should have been at least mentioned

[@eayzgaj]

Juninho played in an era where the trend for footballs was to have a low panel count where the amount surface with area between seams was large. This really helped the knuckleball technique. I don’t believe he could get the same “movement” out of todays balls. For instance the current nike premier league ball has ridges all over it designed to make it more stable, eliminating the “movement” that you saw from Juninhos knuckleballs. Same with the current adidas ball where the seams go back and forth across the ball reducing the surface area between seams.

[@tf-ok]

James-Ward Prowse is doing it tho

[@eayzgaj]

@@tf-ok not quite the same as Juninho and other free kicks and long shots from his era

[@tlawal7]

This is very interesting. I would love to watch a video about how the design of footballs effect set pieces and shots.

[@eayzgaj]

Would love to see what JWP could do with a teamgeist or a jabulani

[@Colby_0-3_IRL_and_title_fights]

Scientifically inaccurate. The smoother and more consistent the ball's surface is, the more erratic its movement becomes due to turbulence. The knuckleball free kick works based on the de-laminarising effect of turbulent flow on the boundary layer. Having the large panel gaps keeps the boundary layer consistent giving more consistent spin and trajectory rather than the erratic movement of a knuckleball. This is why golf balls have dimples if you ever wondered.

[@BigMadAndy]

Hearing someone say ‘Messi just isn’t a good ball striker’ is crazy to hear, but very interesting and insightful. Already rumours Barca are lining up a €100m Bid for their new saviour, James Ward Prowse.

[@axlegend30]

We arent letting him go. At least I hope

[@ahmadridz1]

Are you for real? Never heard of those rumors

[@BenSilver10]

You can drop the technical aspect of striking the ball when you have such accuracy as Messi does.

[@enzog1078]

The amount bs in this video is hilarious. Messi not a good striker of the ball? Lmao

[@necromax13]

​@@enzog1078 didn't you watch the video? not in free kicks.

[@ZamWeazle]

The expert missed Sinisa Mihajlovic. He was the best until juninho Pernambucano. That guy was a free kick beast he even scored a free kick hat tricks in games.

[@victorfrancisco780]

As a Vasco fan, Juninho had already scored some brilliant free kicks way before moving to Lyon. In 1998 he scored the most important goal in Vasco's Libertadores title campaign from a set piece. Also, after returning to Brazil aged 36 he still had it. Although it was clearly more difficult for him to hit the top spots, he would still score a few bangers with low flying knuckleballs hitting the ground before the keeper had any chance of reaction. He was an amazing player. Also, I am happy that the specialist included Marcelinho and Marcos Assunção in his top 3. Since Marcelinho has never made an impact in Europe he is ofter disregarded in this matter, but he really was an incredibly amazing set piece taker.

[@idt369]

This video is phenomenal at showing the importance of qualitative data in modern football. Over the last 5 years, there has been a push for quantitative data which is well placed but someone sitting down and talking about tiny details of spin, gravity and technical deficiencies goes missing when we just look at the numbers. (Also, he was defo referring to Ronaldinho @ 7:30)

[@willywonka7812]

Thought it was Andreas Moller

[@yellowcornet]

I thought he was on about ronaldo who loves to just cannon his free kicks every damn time 😅

[@JeKramxel]

He was definitely talking about Cristiano Ronaldo.

[@qieraxtiramisu6180]

I think it's harry kane

[@KindredBrujah]

It's incredibly common for that to happen. Sometimes the team just doesn't have a better option, in which case fine. If you've got someone who converts, say, 15% of their free kicks, you definitely want them to be taking them. If nobody does, might as well get someone with some footballing intelligence have a go; so a Messi or Ronaldinho.

[@btrams]

what the hell, a polish Bartek that works at Brentford i am a polish Bartek whose favorite club is Brentford

[@Hieillua]

Juninho's freekicks were always like penalties. The chances they went in were more likely than not. And I'm a huge Messi fan. But this video also talks about something I always bring up in Messi vs. Ronaldo debates as well. Juninho is simply TECHNICALLY better at freekicks than Messi. Messi might be better in other aspects of the game, but in the sense of freekicks, Juninho is better. While this argument also goes for the Messi vs. Ronaldo debate. As where Messi is technically better in a lot of aspects of the game as well. Like his vision of the game, his passing, free kicks and dribbling.

[@aidangriffiths5075]

Messi wasn't a technically better dribbler than Ronaldo, everyone for some reason seems to forget Ronaldo before he focused solely on goals. He was the most entertaining player in the world by a mile

[@enzog1078]

@@aidangriffiths5075 Messi not a technically better dribbler than Ronaldo? How much crack have you smoked? Have you been lobotomized? Are you from a different dimension? Like, please help me rationalize.

[@sonicwithglasses131]

@@aidangriffiths5075 that is cap

[@Chip_Fuse]

@@sonicwithglasses131 only if you weren't lucky enough to watch it. He was explosive on the ball, you had to be there. Anyway, there are videos on KZbin on it.

[@sonicwithglasses131]

@@Chip_Fuse thats simply cap lol one of messi worst dribbling season (2016) is better than ronaldo best dribbling season

[@SaadFarooq]

That Kane graphic when he says there are free kick takers who relentlessly do things that don't work 😂

[@jorgeherrera1074]

I don’t think Messi ever has or ever will proclaim himself as a great free kick taker. He’s just above average, but not bad. But the thing is that’s just another tool in his tool belt.

[@vwr777]

We need more of this guy, and generally specialist coaches like him!!! Absolutely fascinating!!!

[@mattfullysick]

Massive Lyon fan here, I remember watching Lyon play one mourning and we were about 1/4 into the season and the commentator mentioned 45% of Lyons goals had come from Juninhos set pieces, goals and assists. I can’t remember the year but I remember just thinking how absurd that sounds. But I feel like what was missing in the video is goal contributions from free kicks too, Juninho would sometimes send in the perfect passes from free kicks that would most of the time convert into goals too

[@eemuhellman2202]

Petteri Forsell is an example of current player that is able to score freekicks with side spin, top spin and knuckleball. Polish and Finnish fans know him well.

[@therealking6202]

Just watched a compilation... Good Lord the movement Junior routinely gets on the ball is astonishing, and it looks like he can even aim where the final swerve lands. Normally you hit a knuckle straight at the goal and hope for the best...that's why you sometimes see shots straight at the keeper, because the ball didn't knuckle. But Juniper can place it.

[@FS-flash]

Eveybody who really knows football, knows that Juninho was on another level, no other player ever came close. No Beckham, no Roberto Carlos, no Ronaldinho, no Messi, no Ronaldo, no Zlatan. Juninho made them all look like little babies, the one and only GOAT of freekicks!

[@ozanavar3460]

Alban Meha was also an insane free kick specialist, although he never really played at a high level so not many people know him

[@ahmmetb3h]

THANK YOU!

[@mr.burrival5968]

Is crazy how many brazilians are free-kick masters.

[@LMarcon11]

In early to mid 2010s there was a guy in Brazil called Marcos Assunção that was arguably better (at taking FKs) at the time than Juninho, Ceni and Dinho. It was crazy. He once scored 2 FKs in a game and hit one in the post. He couldn't do much else tho

[@winstoneerickarema]

Didi, Roberto Rivellino, Zico, Marcelinho Carioca, Marcos Assuncao, Juninho Pernambucano. Yeah, they're truly the home of Free Kick Specialists.

[@insanityrabbit2406]

I know he'll never get mentioned due to him never reaching his potential, but holy hell, Dzsudzsák was an animal with free kicks back at PSV. I'll never forget that insane free kick against Ajax from the side of the penalty area

[@princeanime7408]

Arguing against Messi is like walking amoungst a living GOD and denying he is in front of you. Messi will end up whit most Free Kicks scored of all time.

[@michaeltrumph121]

Butthurt Messi fanboy spotted. The man spoke FACTS. The truth hurts, doesn't it ?

[@Mysterialic]

Juninho, no doubt about this.

[@wsottRawMania]

Yes, he's the only player I've seen opponents put up a wall to a 40m free kick. That man was incredible.

[@adrianhafizh1326]

If inzaghi was born in offside position, juninho was born in freekick position

[@suzukidaisuke0]

Don't forget Zico!!! the predecessor that inspired all the greatest Brazilians free kickers

[@dazzaMusic]

Wasn’t Zico recorded of scoring 80+? Brazil’s records are always mysterious though

[@haroldcvideo]

Nakamura Shunsuke was a fantastic free-kick taker and will always be one of my favourites.

[@Iamdouye]

Dude doesn't fancy curlers. That's his angle tbh. Till u play knuckle ball freekicks bfo ur considered good by this guy, regardless of ur numbers.

[@Stamnley]

I love how this video just kinda turned into slagging messi's free kick taking ability off.

[@StrangeBedStains]

No one can beat Juninho even if Messi surpasses his free kick record It took him 1000+ games to achieve it While it took Juninho 502 games to get 77 free kicks Imagine if he kept playing💀

[@AeolianMusica]

I felt that “hello”.

[@zombievikinggaming4258]

Data alone doesn't give the full story. Location of free kick, goalkeepers they face, and pressure of occasion like if it's a big game moment, all matter

[@arroe8386]

Dude, not a single current player is great at free kicks? What is your standard? I mean every mature fan probably knows how insane Juninho was in free kicks, but you're talking like everyone below his level is immediately terrible

[@nicktolmie6102]

I know this is would require looking at a lot of extraneous variables from Bartek's perspective (given that he is focusing on the technique of the takers) but I wonder what kind of impact improvements in the way goalkeepers (and defenders) prepare for free kicks might have had on conversion rates in the last 15-20 years? I love watching the full compilations of free kicks scored by players that i grew up with like Juninho and Mihailovic , however, at times, the goalkeeping/defending does seem calamitously bad on a few of the "filler" ones and it seems like there have been some advances in things like wall positioning to not leave keeper effective handicapped at close range and adding "draft excluders" etc. Obviously, it's very hard to train to defend again a free kick taker like Juninho unless there is one on your team but It'd be interesting to know (given the scientific advances coming into football now) why free kick takers are getting worse? Is it just that it's an innate talent and the current generation doesn't have much or are there other factors involved? Is there any data on the numbers /percentages of free kicks on target / blocked en route to goal by defenders? If so, have these numbers changed much for the top players of this generation vs previous ones?

[@BenSilver10]

"why free kick takers are getting worse?" Perhaps you answered your question with "impact improvements in the way goalkeepers (and defenders) prepare for free kicks...". I remember that FK goals were mostly curly/chip shots over the wall. Goalkeepers nowadays are excellent. If you look at top flyer (1st division) teams, most have a great GK, even in the teams battling against relegation. Also, overall, defenders are more thoughtful now and avoid overcommitting in tackles near the box.

[@necromax13]

if anything, it could be said that free kicks and corner kicks have been left behind in the current era of play.

[@gluestix17]

just watched a compilation video of juninhio... what's probably most insane about his technique is the ability to hit a ball over the wall then for it to be in the bottom corner

[@NphiniT]

Exactly!!

[@Tom_de_Oliveira]

Rogerio ceni? Imagine the confidence you must have to come up and take a free kick as a goalkeeper and scoring nearly 60 of them too

[@homosapien5156]

Absolutely top notch video. Classic Tifo. Great information from the Brentford coach.

[@newbie4789]

Yeah. That Messi goal analysis was amazing. He scored a lot because of his superior footballing intellect and long time practice. The ability to stay in form for this long time is also an important thing.

[@AM-sv5ph]

6:29 idk what he's talking about, from the same range (right at the penalty box line at centre) juninho only scored maybe 2 goals by getting the ball over the wall, you can check it yourself. messi scored 3 i think

[@Arianm09]

Marcos Assunção was an absolute monster, definitely recommend looking him up.

[@janshkreli2172]

Messi used to not take any free kicks at all, but he then improved tremendously and started doing them. His technical deficiency might still be there, but I don't think he has ever had a great focus on it. He also struggles a bit with penalties, because he is focused on live play at which he is unmatched. The thing that differentiates him is his intelligence, i.e. how he can overcome deficiencies in a creative way. Also, I much prefer the way a Messi or Del Piero free-kick looks to that of Juninho. It looks classier.

[@NakanoGhost27]

Mihajlovic also scored a hattrick free kicks in Lazio I believe

[@ivomoreira42]

Just for those (probably majority) of you who don't know who Rogério Ceni is, the second one to score more free kick goals in the list, he was a GOALKEEPER. That's amazing!

[@abhijiththampi]

Pretty amazing that Brazil had such an amazing squad that players like Juninho and Ceni couldn't even get a look in as subs.

[@8Clips]

I think you're underestimating the footballing knowledge of this channel's viewers

[@ivomoreira42]

@@8Clips it wasn't my intention. Sorry for that ^^

[@xxballer099gfxxzz3]

Now I want to see this fella take a free kick

[@ryerock32]

I think things like on target% should also be look at in addition to conversion rate bc a single free kick can change your rate in a season a ton (even if its lucky) but being able to put the ball on frame consistently has its merits. I think assists from free kicks should be the third category bc the ability to deliver a ball and or make the defense doubt itself is key. That's why JWP is the best for me. It's not just that he can score its that he can assist with ease as well

[@7amanito]

I wish this video contained actual clips from the goals JJ were using as examples..

[@Tbeumo]

I'd love to know how good Nakamura was statistically. He was only able to kick curve balls like Beckham but I feel like probability of scoring was pretty good.

[@necromax13]

he scored fifty, that's A LOT.

[@joaquinbello1871]

As a venezuelan I may be biased in this but Juan Arango could hit a mean free kick. Anyone who watched the Bundesliga in the early 2010's and la Liga in the 2000's can tell you that. I recommend checking him out

[@georgepoincot4126]

Juan Arango free kick double vs Mexico, from the same exact spot 35 yards out. That will always be ingrained in my memory.

[@crazychameleon123]

Sad to see not a greater mention of Roger Ceni. If you’re allowed to take free kicks as a goalie, you must be incredible.

[@MrBasketville]

I really appreciated that some new names are finally shown - Juninho is well known in Europe but not much talked about, there is a chance I have heard of a Marcos Assuncao in the distant past but Marcelinho Carioca I am pretty sure I never heard about before. In defense of more recent players, however, I dare say that teams' defensive proficiency and GK skill have improved. Also, I wonder if there is a greater tendency for team to have the team play the ball on set pieces as opposed to directly shooting towards the net?

[@lsi01]

Juninho was the stuff of legend.. Surprised no mention of Zico 🤔

[@studiouswadoo5027]

Juninho is surely a better free kick taker cause of the distance and consistency he can shoot but imo Messi had better moments (scoring in La Liga, Champions League, etc). He had more big time free kick goals while Juninho had more overall goals but against Ligue 1 teams and against weak sides in international football.

[@radamanthyssama2571]

Oliver Kahn, Victor Valdes and Iker Casillas are not agree with this😅

[@wizardaka]

Brilliant video but one note (apologies, I'm an epidemiologist so obsessed) - the thing you're measuring in terms of ratios (free kick goals as a ratio of attempted) is too small to claim that, say, Coutinho is better than Messi at them. He's only scored 5. As an extreme example, if I came on in a prem game and scored a free kick (dramatically unlikely) then my conversion would be 100% - but it would be a fluke.

[@MuskVideo]

My thought too. I have to say there's a few spots where tifo fall down in their data interpretation and presentation (stupid graphs!!!!!)

[@SKa-tt9nm]

“Your sample sizes are small, your standard deviations are high, your conclusion means nothing and you should feel badly about it”

[@wizardaka]

@@MuskVideo I think stats are ubiquitous now and often abused, but the standard of their analysis is so good generally I just wanted to mention it. And I think in fairness they interview someone who (by the sounds of it) has done an incredible amount of hours of deep study into the topic. One thing I like is that JJ uses Wyscout to watch footage to the quant work which is precisely the right approach.

[@CLDLL-yr8df]

As a Liverpool fan I think Messi is good at free kicks

[@frafrafrafrafra]

Mihajlovic was a wonderful free kick taker

[@hishama2056]

the best of all time

[@T.E.S.S.]

Good video. Great to have that specialist perspective.

[@hugoafonso2102]

I rarely saw Juninho play, but I remember Mihailovic and Nakamura being excellent with high conversion rates. But the most impressive free kick taker I've seen was Alvaro Recoba, a specialist fk taker while he was in his teens.

[@necromax13]

el chino recoba was something else at striking the ball. just insane

[@stephentyler6290]

Juninho is the greatest ever that man can score from anywhere I think he can score from outside the stadium

[@shakey215]

as a spurs fan. it pisses me off so much Harry Kane still takes free kicks over someone like Eric Dier, who is genuinely pretty good at them.

[@thomasbroadbent3413]

After spending hours on twitter I come to tifo and remember how much I love tifo

[@karl343]

Wouldn't the statistics be skewed for players hitting free-kicks in lower quality leagues? They aren't going to be up against elite keepers often.

[@SKa-tt9nm]

2:08 Exactly! Nobody found it strange that the top 3 free kick takers of all time just happen to be Brazilian?

[@felipemota5821]

@@SKa-tt9nm in 90s early 00s Brasil national league was as good as any european ones, and Assunção played la liga as well, just search for their compilations and u will see why they are different.

[@bengrundy123]

What I think should also be considered when saying that none of the current crop of FK specialists are of the level of the likes of Juninho is that, since then, strides that have been made in goalkeeper coaching and analysis. I completely understand that data on this is hard to come by but it would be interesting to see the breakdown of FKs taken/FKs On Target/FKs Off Target etc to get an even greater idea of consistency

[@-ingar-]

Morten Gamst Pedersen was good, but maybe more akin to Ward-Prowse than any of the A-tier freekick specialists

[@1812madjack]

Bartek! Absolute legend of a coach in FM. I wonder if / how often JJ has signed him...