Who Makes That ORION RIFF Seem Strange? James or Lars?

[@alessiocristofoletto9466]

Final experiment sounded killer!

[@TheArtofGuitar]

I wonder how many people clicked off before seeing it. ;)

[@almond42069]

I stayed by reading this comment only

[@MKDumas1981]

It was worth waiting for. The "little trick" you refer to is called "miscounting the beat". 😂

[@andrr2004]

i waited years for someone talking about this

[@dcfromthev]

Yes same!

[@davidvied2507]

😂😂

[@TheClimb511]

Yep! I'm glad I'm not the only one that heard that. Mistake or intentional, I think it's awesome!

[@gegakgempita7776]

Finally someone really notice that, those who try to follow this song, will understand how difficult to get into it, i hope someone will talk about dyers eve after solo moment...

[@jujubawav3818]

Yeees me too

[@Swift016]

4:40 Messing with Orion like this should be against the Geneva Convention. So uncomfortable to listen to lmao.

[@Sigmachadofficial]

Look how they massacred my boy *sad godfather face

[@RayMiles666]

But once it gets back to normal version of the song, it's like nothing happened 😎

[@boots_33]

Dude... The way you shift from color to B&W and back to color is probably the SMARTEST way to represent that shift in a visual manner. That trick alone makes these videos super impressive. Hopefully, there are people out there learning from these and feeling the songs in a new way. Amazing job!

[@Silverado5150MKII]

Kirk can't play the notes in between, while Lars play's the notes in between.

[@rangamsarmah2061]

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

[@amirmasjid2351]

lars doesn't play the notes

[@ViktorPopov2000]

@@rangamsarmah2061 more like the thing that should not be

[@fabianmv2342]

Kirk cheats on his wife with the notes in between

[@Brokenface]

@@rangamsarmah2061 exactly

[@H.E.M.]

Lars drumming made James simple riffs so much cooler.

[@3amir126]

yeah... I know he's not that complex and shit.. but his skills on composing and arrangements are very high bro... and that's why I think he doesn't reserve the hate.. 😂

[@uhh4312]

@@3amir126 he is not hated for simple drumming but he stopped practicing after ajfa so he cant play live properly

[@JAF2991]

Exactly, I fuckin hate Lars but his beat just make this song cooler

[@yeetfeet1878]

Lars didn’t stop practicing after and justice for all trust me. And Lars’s simple drumming lol a lot of Metallica drumming is more complex than a lot of slayer songs.

[@Squall6575]

@@uhh4312 I think most drummers revere his drumming on AJFA and even his studio drumming on the load albums. Its his live inability to keep tempo and adding unnecessary fills that gets him the hate.

[@craigmurphy1204]

He is such a unique player. I can't imagine anyone replacing him.

[@DreamfactoryZero]

How about when Joey Jordison replaced him at Download? They looked like they had a lot of fun that night.

[@filsolano5465]

@@DreamfactoryZero not even close. It was fun to watch them play with Dave and Joey sitting in for Lars. If you actually pay attention Jordison was focused on just playing fast, but was missing some of the accents on the songs. Which gave it a total different feeling. Jordison even slaughtered some of the tunes he jammed with Korn.

[@thunderhandediii1832]

Anyone with a functioning brain can replace Lars. Dude butchers any track he himself covers, like Diary of a Madman. He’s unique but not that good.

[@redrick8900]

@@DreamfactoryZero When you band needs two drummers to sub for you, you are irreplaceable.

[@damienwarnotte5912]

Who made the riff seems strange ? Lars or James ? *starts the video on drums*

[@H.E.M.]

Dammit Lars

[@samuelbarlow4376]

james technically because lar's drum track was recorded first on the album

[@marvintimke3978]

@@samuelbarlow4376 But what was written first?

[@benparsons4979]

@@samuelbarlow4376 probably not written first

[@queenpurple8433]

@@marvintimke3978 this is true, but I still have a hard time believing Lars has the memory to pull it off more than once xD

[@filsolano5465]

Tons of people shit on Lars’ drumming, but they don’t realize that little simple things as this give the song/ riff a total different feel. Lars might not be as technical as other drummers, but his drumming is iconic. Even when Lombardo and Jordison sat in for Ulrich they didn’t have the same feel for the songs they played. Just because you’re fast and amazing doesn’t mean that you’re better than the other. The same would apply if Lars and Joey would play a Lombardo song or vise versa. Hell even Jordison slaughtered those songs when he sat behind the drums with Korn, and Zombie. He’s a badass drummer but his style wasn’t proper for the ones mentioned. He was perfect for the Knot in his tenure with them. Lars is perfect for Metallica and that’s the bottom line.

[@janitor6669]

Amen! Lars never claimed to be a great drummer. But his influence in immeasurable. Alas, Millenials will never get it.

[@darthvader4339]

@@janitor6669 No I get it and I appreciate what he did for Metallica. It’s the fact that he never practiced and never wanted to elevate his playing. Also, don’t bring that millennials crap here.

[@ak47dragunov]

Sorry but Lombardo's performance on Battery put Lars' to shame.

[@redrick8900]

@@darthvader4339 He didn't get his playing to the top without elevating it.

[@booli8542]

That's one of the things that prove that Mike Portnoy is a big Lars fan. He made a lot of those "switches" in DT songs.

[@caelmcleish1212]

One of the prime examples off the top of my head is that bit before the big curly riff in Scarred (you know the one I mean. I think it’s the unison section?)

[@matteopriotto5131]

Pull Me Under's intro is a good example

[@jansandman6983]

Portnoy acknowledges Lars at his top 10 most influential drummers that inspired him.

[@zane4575]

For me that little bit of off timing has always been catchy af

[@BenEller]

Extremely cool video!

[@laurent1678]

Ben Stiller?!?!!

[@rangamsarmah2061]

Hey, I was just thinking of orion when you posted the blackened video. Metallica was the first to teach me how much can be done with 4/4, cuz 4/4 can also be proggy af.

[@H.E.M.]

Megadeth as well. And they do it better 😎

[@rangamsarmah2061]

@@H.E.M. yeah, megadeth do it amazing, but I guess a lot of people, like me, learn about Metallica first, black album n puppets n stuff.

[@mannyv4044]

Metallica is better than megadeath

[@hombrerusode40anos72]

@@mannyv4044 yes, dave's voice is wath keeps me away from Megadeth

[@blaynef5163]

@@hombrerusode40anos72 Me as well

[@brodawgHD2020]

I never thought he was intentionally misplacing the downbeat here, just playing measure-long fill that emphasizes the accents of the guitar riff. It's just a weird fill that doesn't use toms, at least that's how I hear it.

[@zane4575]

Yeah, lars has a weird but catchy sense of timing. I don't feel like it was unintentional

[@joetroutt7425]

When I was a beginner drummer I never knew it switched. I was just mesmerized by all the endless fills that Lars did. Now that I have a better understanding I have to credit James for being able to stay consistent with his riffs throughout all that madness

[@mattgilbert7347]

"As a drummer, you do have a lot of power" SHH! Don't let them know or they'll all want one.

[@superflux1654]

So funny, I just had a conversation about this riff with our drummer yesterday, and then you release a video about it! Haha! I love it, it's so strange yet engaging

[@Cthulhu_Awaken]

Did you guys already practice it? I'd like to hear if you can feel the upbeat shifting and coming back again.

[@superflux1654]

@@Cthulhu_Awaken No we didn't practice it yet. But while practicing the riff on guitar, I realized it's pretty much straight forward for me, it's all on the drummer to make it sound what it sounds.

[@S-A-CCL]

2:24 my brain stopped working

[@flamedmahoganytable9749]

This is an INSANELY good way to freshen up a riff, more useful than you give yourself credit, thank you Mike!!!

[@p1preferred71]

Dude I’ve literally been listening to this song on half speed to try and decipher what the guitars were doing differently for weeks. Thanks lol

[@pimpchris21]

DUDE you`re not alone I was trying to understand the riff but it all makes sense

[@jugularmusic]

I don't care what anyone says, the "switch up" that Lars does REALLY amps up the atmosphere AND the riff itself!

[@louisjamin7195]

And this, kids, is why Lars is a really great drummer.

[@jesusguerra1093]

HAHA I dare to bet anything that this happened because he couldn't keep the beat on time, it wasn´t planned, don't get me wrong, I love the old Metallica stuff and as a drummer myself I learn a lot playing those songs along, but it is what it is ! Lars sucks big time on keeping the tempo or beats, probably it worked well for him, I imagine Hetfield saying to himself "what the fuck this is what i got and won't worry about it anymore" but this is not science, this is a mistake going well, Tomy Lee does it in "too young to fall in love" aswell and it sounds weird but in the end cool, so it is matter on how you see it i guess.

[@platinum10000]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one! You almost got me..I almost tought you were serious!

[@vorpalblades]

Lars fuckin' blows, always has.

[@bipultamang7061]

well lars has influenced lots of drummers and they all have turned out to be great maybe some wont like his style or whatever i personally like his playing

[@markwildt5728]

@@jesusguerra1093 indeed... Lars definitely had his own original sound, but it was a result of not knowing how to play. He was just able to somehow make it work... If you listen to his live performances, especially recent ones, he rarely plays these notorious off beat time signatures...

[@tomt.5799]

At the outro of Orion we can hear the version with no alternate reality, straight beat. This guided me to thinking that the guitars in alternate reality are actually the same. PS You're a very good drummer, you are able to keep track of the beat in all realities here , for me there no way to find my way back out, I get lost every time 😁

[@admiraladmirable420]

My guess is Lars just doesn't realize that he's doing it, and it just kind of happens

[@vooose]

can't begin to describe how amazing these videos are - having struggled with these riffs *for years* but not having the musical acumen to know why you have revealed it in plain sight - excellent produced videos with 100% content and no fluff - please keep up the good work

[@GGMattt]

After spending so much time lately learning Master of Puppets on guitar, I focused more on listening to the album as a whole and I quickly became obsessed with Orion because of this simple sounding riff but also that offset 👌🏻 it really makes you listen to it again like 'did I really hear that shift or did I imagine it?' 😅

[@princemjbp695]

Prog at 4/4

[@kasper-jw2441]

Orion is such a good example of how important arrangement is. its all pretty simple, but together in the right time its sounds super sophisticated.

[@spookyghost8952]

That blackened style at the end where we lived in the off beat for just a little bit was so fucking sick. Crazy how the tiniest change of moving drums over slightly makes the riff feel wayyy different

[@johncrafton8319]

Every time I hear these on the album, I picture James from "Some Kind of Monster" screaming at Lars to find the beat.

[@MKDumas1981]

It's the notes in between that keep fucking with him.

[@reemsreg]

I was so blown away when I learned this. I always thought the riff changed or something, but I listened the isolated guitar track and heard it’s the same both times.

[@branniganfarnsworth3342]

Same for me

[@mikemedel1917]

Lars is dropping the snare and hitting the bass drum. Then hits the bass again in its normal place. Fits in the same time but throws your ear. Genius!

[@MrStrongbox]

Wow that was really cool. To be honest, I was never confused about how the drumming goes on this one but you broke it down in a way that made me realize how this is another little Lars trick. Particularly when you played the eighth note off riff. I love your example at 4:32.

[@williamknyff5203]

Alternate reality with the black & white cracks me up every time haha!! Great vids!!!

[@andreasdrg]

Brilliant editing. The first B&W section was incredibly illuminating. I was sure that you had recorded a different variant of the guitar riff just to mess with us, from how different it sounds.

[@alfca]

Over the years this is something I’ve picked up by hearing it and playing along to it and I never really new how to describe it. You break this down well for those of us self taught. Much appreciated!

[@DwayneRidgwayOfficial]

Holy crap, the final experiment caught me way, way off guard. Tried playing along on bass since I've been playing this song for a long time, but that totally threw me off. Awesome video!

[@Nischal8221bDge]

im happy that mike is going deep in METALLICAAA

[@finaljesus]

that off beat on Orion is killer i also love what you did on blackened i love that off beat too aweome videos too keep them coming i love odd time signatures

[@trustyEXE]

Thank you for this video! I've been out of music for a couple of years now and this breakdown really got me excited about it again. Crazy how an eighth note can shift how the listener perceives the riff.

[@willwozniak2826]

You got that heel toe groove down perfectly....I been playing for 35 years and still cant nail, the double kicks with one foot.

[@88_TROUBLE_88]

I've always struggled with that riff except for the 2nd time when it comes to the outro; in the outro it's hella easy and I've always wondered why it is so difficult for me to play along with it the 1st time it appears in the song but not the 2nd.. Excellent video and breakdown of what is going on with it here and much appreciated!

[@flappybowelfart]

Great video. I spent ages as a teenager trying to work this out. Initially thought it must be some odd time signature, but it's all 8:8 The clever bit is when he comes outs of that syncopated snare/crash rhythm with the kick on the offbeat. The guitars are syncopated too so we listeners don't really know where we are in the bar (unless we've been counting) so we just assume the kick is putting us back on the 1 or the 3. It feels like Lars only realises when he gets to the end of the bar that he's out by an 8th note (in alternate reality). So he has to take evasive action and put in two kicks to get back on the 1 for the start of the next bar, which totally messes us listeners up because it feels like they've dropped a beat somewhere. Lars tends to follow the guitars and play by feel. Some people criticise him for this as amateurish and unimaginative but it does give rise to some quite interesting stuff (like this). Nevertheless I doubt he is musical/talented enough to sit down and work out something like this (like a Portnoy-type drummer might) . The scenario I like to imagine is that it was a mistake he made while writing/practicing and he improvised it as a fix, but when they heard it, it sounded so cool they kept it in. I like to think Cliff was the one who insisted they keep it; being the most musical of them he probably understood how accidentally brilliant it was! ... This is just my teenage fan boy fantasy though.

[@orishem8392]

idk why I see this just now, but very cool video! "When in doubt - blame Lars" btw I really loved that end part where you took the blackened beat and used it for orion, the alternate reality part sounded so sick and strong!! It actually felt like the riff got more energy in it... I think your onto something there. much love dude

[@johannes4218]

I think your explanation of the "alternate reality" is really great. I tried to explain this riff to a friend of mine once and I couldn't really get him to understand it. I have to start using that explanation when I discuss drum parts like these.

[@latentsea]

Off beat,

[@herbie747]

I can't believe there's an entire KZbin channel for people who get confused by someone playing on the offbeat. You made a video about Blackened and One, just breaking down an offbeat. It's not complicated to process.

[@Hoscitt]

Good stuff again! Learners today have it so much easier with resources like this, I had to figure this stuff out by continuously stopping and rewinding cassettes 30 years ago! 😄

[@Cameron9788]

Damn that last example you made up sounded so damn good haha. Loving these videos! Keep em coming! Thanks Mike!

[@zackhagains3739]

Thank you. I've been messing up that riff for years. Now I understand it a bit more....and still mess it up at that section.

[@SirBradsalot87]

Damn ive struggled with this for nearly 20 years, again i thought the guitars switched it up, but no lars is to blame again. I might try adding this to some of my stuff and seeing how it works out. Excellent video again!

[@zane4575]

To blame? Lol..doesn't sound like a mistake to me

[@amjan]

@@zane4575 Of course it's not a mistake. It's a fantastic embelishment.

[@m.r.4455]

Well, to me it's related to the human nature of Lars, who doesn't seem complex or superstructured but rather twisted...!

[@Mike13thghost]

How does a cool informative video like this honestly get a dislike? What is there to dislike? Some people are just trolls. Simple to the point content that makes sense and picks at your brain for a sec. Good job bro, appreciate the vid!

[@michael7v6]

Had my 11 year old daughter watch your beginner lesson. She loved it.

[@tx2jbh81]

That black&white/color really helps bro. And also, 🤘🏽 rad videos

[@triad5766]

Harvester of sorrow is another one you could do. The way the riff is accented by the drums it makes it sounds like there’s two hits with the Open E power chord with the drums. In reality it’s just one.

[@leonardoulian764]

Same in the bridge of Frayed Ends of Sanity... 4/4 made fun

[@kbrinson85]

this series has been fun...I like how when in the “alternate reality”, we go black and white...kinda like the color scheme change from stranger things “upside down” 👍🏼😆

[@AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken84]

The art of Metallica channel is going strong 🤘

[@MKDumas1981]

I can think of worse things.

[@Cthulhu_Awaken]

Seeing this makes me think Lars acts almost like a reggae drummer, starting on the upbeat instead of the 1 and the whole thing (I know he doesn't do that on purpose). Heck, someone even calls James's palm muting riffs staccato, which is quite remarkable, though not really the same thing. There's another fact resulting from the whole thing. It's like almost Lars waits for the guitars (i.e. James) to enter; so it may not be the drums carrying the beat like most other bands do, but the rhythm guitar player. In fact a huge part of Metallica discography has songs that come to a break within the first minute/minute and half, during which there's one guitar playing the man riff or whatever and then after a measure or two the whole band enters along with the drums (with slight variations on which instrument comes first).

[@d36class]

I loooove this riff/drum combo it’s such a good groove and one of the the reasons that makes the song great

[@ivanputignef2418]

Great work! Thank goodness in your final experiment you didn't make it even more strange by shifting to St Anger snares!

[@daveshort6568]

Those drums are tuned GREAT.

[@jamesesposito37]

Great video man, i was literally learning this on guitar the other day and now i understand it. Thanks

[@blackpatflynn]

did any other guitar player swear the second play thru was different than the first...like the riff changed slightly...i wondered for years and still play it different the 2nd time thru from habbit and my ears...this video just is cool on many levels

[@machupikachu1085]

Thanks so much for decoding that! That's a crazy cool trick to make a 4/4 riff sound like it went to college. I'm totally gonna nick this for one or two of my tunes. Thanks Mike! And Lars I guess har har.

[@deeforty]

Really getting into your channel, your love for music is amazing, I share the same passion.

[@gabrielramirez7646]

4:41-4:49 interesting enough I liked that off beat feel and I kinda didnt want it to end but when we got snapped back into reality it worked really well.. at least to me it was fucking awesome and domt get me wrong fucking love Orion.. by far one of my favorites from them! Good creative stuff man!

[@1k.morales]

Happy birthday Kirk hammett!! Great analysis Mike!

[@OsLapsosBandaRock]

"As a drummer, you have a lot of power to mess everything"! The ultimate Truth! 🤘🤩🤘

[@LoneWolf-wu6yn]

The mention of how a drummer has a lot of power to mess with everything, sums up why MetallicA worked and still does. Lars is NOT a "perfect" drummer, but he is the BEST for MetallicA. And my idea is that, James is a rhythm mastermind and the two are what makes the magic happen. So many musicians are technically brilliant that we have never heard of. I attribute that to the real dynamic between James/Lars and Kirk's solos. It might end up being more about the "feels" than the technicality of playing.

[@GMtheTurtle]

This reminds me of Perfect Pillow by Chon! On the version played by Nathan Camarena for Meinl Cymbals theres a part where he plays the rhythm one eighth note off relative to the song and it was hard to learn but is really fun to play.

[@derekcarnes2004]

One of my fav drum beats

[@ericcastelli5422]

youre so good at making metallica somewhat make sense

[@athlonen]

Similar to delaying vibrato on a guitar, not hitting the crash on the 1 of a measure PROVIDES TENSION. It's a common trick that guitarists use all the time, especially George Lynch. Adding that to the drums creates it as well as you're waiting for that hit to get hit but doesn't when you expect it. What is also cool here is with playing the riff straight through on a 4/4 beat, you can basically regurgitate that riff to use in a different song, would sound unique enough that it would sound original, but when you dissect the tracks of the song, you'd hear the same riff. For example: Take the riff in the verse of Gods of War, by Def Leppard. take out the palm muting and speed up the track, and it's Message In a Bottle, by The Police. You wouldn't know it until you took out the vocals and drums.

[@graysontc9002]

Thank you so much for this! I was playing along to Orion and this part threw me off. I knew it wasnt just me lol. I'll definitely try this out!

[@RockosdogSpunky]

This riff always messed with me. When I listened to the guitar only track and played along it sounded fine but whenever I played along with the record something was off that I couldn't quite figure out. Thanks

[@Mizziri]

The 'alternate reality' is also used by Mike Portnoy all the time to make simple sections sound super complicated, notably on the intro to Honor Thy Father.

[@2760ade]

I honestly always thought the guitar altered the beat not the drums!! Amazing illusion!

[@Epd3mik]

I actually like the sound of that drumkit! ESPECIALLY the first slow part!

[@TheSultan69]

Thanks for the level of detail. I would love to see a breakdown of the clean riff in “One,” with the arpeggiated chords. There isn’t a good tab out there on this.

[@LoneIgadzra]

I have always absolutely loved these parts in Metallica songs, and never understood why. I thought maybe they were playing with time signatures or something. Thank you for a) also noticing and loving these parts, and b) explaining them.

[@akhmedthemerchant4741]

The blackened version sounded sick

[@zippy61]

Another great one man! Super fun and interesting! Thanks

[@Metallica8589]

I am not easily impressed... but that switch up and how much it changed the sound of the riff was crazy. I never even thought the drums had that large an effect and I play guitar.

[@orishem8392]

big metallica fan and i really love these deep look videos... thanks!

[@juliancumpian2747]

it is two different rhythms creating tension and release while maintaining a wicked groove.

[@gabrielilles6506]

I always wondered what the heck was going on there!!! Awesome!

[@mr.chocolatehazelnutspread8317]

You should make some videos about pantera I feel like you never talk about their music

[@TheArtofGuitar]

What? I think they're in every single one of my Riffs videos.

[@dcfromthev]

A video on cemetary gates would be wonderful!

[@mr.chocolatehazelnutspread8317]

@@TheArtofGuitar well shit they never pop up for me

[@manoelguidialvares6903]

Never in my whole life the effect of a de-syncing of the drummer sounded so clear. This blackened Orion bugs my mind!!! It seems the guitar completely changed yet it's still the same the whole time

[@MrTimjm009]

Playing Orion and Blackened always used to throw me . Now this helps me shut off the drums and just focus on playing my guitar or bass riff . Trick is not to let the drums influence you . Just keep in time

[@blacxthornE]

this beat shift is the primary reason I listen to this song

[@jerrybrown1446]

One of my first gigs, I was playing guitar and our drummer got stuck playing the beat upside down and couldn’t get out of it. It wasn’t funny at the time, but thinking about it now makes me laugh 😂

[@claysmell]

Another stellar breakdown!

[@metallimatt10]

This could be some Cliff stuff too. He may have told him to try something to make it sound a little more tricky

[@prometheustv6558]

I like how they do a variation of the bass riff that Cliff does.

[@pollopollo3531]

Isnt it just displacement? Gavin Harrison does this well. I'm the Chimaira song "nothing remains" the final breakdown uses displacement. Worth a look.

[@Adlamo]

This is why Metallica holds a special place in my feart.

[@droideca88]

Hehe feart

[@jotallica898]

@@droideca88 Haha... He said feart... Haha

[@godwarrior3403]

Haha Feart

[@JAF2991]

I was jamming with my drummer to this song yesterday, love it. Edit: that alternate reality version just messed me up

[@MetalliBucket]

They also do this in All Nightmare Long! Would love to see a vid on that dude!

[@spacemagic581c5]

Lars is an intelligent drummer that people find it hard to understand … He is one of the best drummer who brings off the book ideas to greater level... Thanks to The Art Of Guitar for the clear Explanation Nice Work

[@metalriffsfunthrash4129]

I'm gonna say JAmes wrote the riffs to his drum machine on his four track and Lars colored it and made it interesting with the back beat measure