Who were the TOP PLAYERS in 2023? / The road ahead for Falcons and G2 - Counter-Points S2E9

Thorin and Maniac discuss their picks for the top CS players in 2023, analyze the upcoming year for both G2 and Falcons, reflect on the past year, and more.
Counter-Points is a Counter-Strike talk show, hosted by Duncan "Thorin" Shields and Mathieu "Maniac" Quiquerez.
This video was recorded on the 27th of December.
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0:00:00 - Intro
0:06:21 - Top players of 2023
0:50:49 - Top IGL's of 2023
1:17:14 - G2
1:38:52 - Falcons
#podcast
#counterstrike
#thorin

[@sh0gun___]

The passion you guys have for this game bleeds from every episode. I know the show has been revived for a while by this point, but I just wanted to say again that I'm so glad Counter-Points is back.

[@luvhcchris]

Much agreed! I hope one day they do a throwback and bring on Moses for an episode. That would be so fire 🔥

[@zalami5053]

We need Thorin at the first CS2 Major.

[@HaasTheFirst]

Saw a tweet recently that greatly resonated with me: if you would had only one source of cs (side) content, it has to be thorin. There is no other options, it's what gives you all the narratives and great perspectives about the game we love. Be it this shoe, or snake and banter or (my favorite) htpm. Thorin is the content king!

[@miyvsk7449]

i think that was richswrath

[@vedser]

The reason for many good CIS AWPers is very s1mple actually.

[@CodyFoxworthy]

Goated comment

[@HaasTheFirst]

True, that's some real cultural impact ;)

[@Tophe]

I don't think people are getting ahead of themselves with donk. He is legitimately a prodigy, already slapping tier 1 teams on LAN and top 20 skill level in the world in my book. Watch him smack everyone in tier 1 this year mark my words; he's special.

[@OnFireAni]

Thank you for everything you put out, it makes the holidays that much more merrier. Merry Christmas!

[@alexwellbaum1487]

Thanks for the content, happy holidays !

[@Lad98477]

The number of tweets I’ve seen of people saying s1mple missed half the year and wasn’t even good when he played is unimaginable . Really exposes the mind of the average CS fan.

[@bobbobinski4285]

yeah. better than ropz this year but ropz had better teammates.

[@tom9614]

Excellent episode as ever. I personally would put spinx above ropz this year, I think in cs2 ropz was better overall, however I actually think in the lurking position spinx continually applied more pressure than ropz this year. I think his rotations on ct were significantly more influential in rounds which I consider to be one of the biggest weaknesses in ropz game, it's almost infamous at this point that for a long time people knew that if they hit b on inferno that ropz would essentially hold down shift and slowly clear out aps/second mid, get his one kill then save because his teamates are all already dead on b. I also really respect that spinx has managed to find his form after his roster has had 2 significant player changes as one of my criticisms of him earlier on is that he seems to be a player that is very reliant on being comfortable within a team before he can really output his best. Nonetheless both had phenomenal years and I look forward to seeing both in the years to come.

[@tarikjulsgaard531]

Good points, I think it shows the difference between ropz and spinx. Ropz will do good in his role in any team, while spinx takes more risks in the same role based of info, which is why he is more reliant on his team, but also has higher impact in the right team

[@20puskinas1992]

Thing is, Ropz elevated Faze to a different league, while Spinx didnt elevate Vitality to next level. Same with B1t on Navi... Guy came, warmed up and elevated Navi to different level. Spinx is a beast, but he didnt have the impact on the team like Ropz does.

[@killin.479]

@@20puskinas1992 not true. Spinx is the reason Vitality started winning tournaments. As soon as Spinx found his form in 2023 they started being the clear cut “favourite”. You cant say he was carried by Zywoo as in 2022 he was carried yet they only won ESL Pro Legaue. Spinx being Zywoo’s ‘right hand man’ is the reason they started winning

[@20puskinas1992]

@killin.479 they looked solid after they added FlameZ. Rio was fluke, major was legit. After that they added Flamez, they got better and then got better after adding mezzi. Ropz alone improved faze tremendously. Spinx not did it alone.

[@killin.479]

@@20puskinas1992 ok nvm you clearly dont know what your talking about or your a delusional fan

[@Ansee7]

27:00 discussion about spinx v ropz and spinx having zywoo. I do agree with the general premise, curious to hear what you guys have to say about elec if we apply the same framework. Undoubtedly he is a top 10 RIFLER in csgo, if not top 5 but considering he was s1mples teammate, does the same premise apply here or at that point do we take the eye test into account and determine elec in his own right is deserving of his praises?

[@AlexMiamorschh]

Great episode! LFN never disappoints.

[@Cheezperson]

Appreciate the great content!

[@chibifirestorm]

Can't wait to watch sh1ro x donk

[@MusicJunkie37]

Appreciate the content

[@TheHausmanis]

And yeah the scene looks way more interesting now, FaZe and Vitality will have Falcons, Liquid and Astralis as serious contenders and i also think Cloud9 will fix their problems and be strong. Will be a nice year of cs!

[@f.iph7291]

You must be kidding about putting sh1ro in the top 10. His farming style is ridiculous! He always saves and cares about stats alwayyyyyyyssssss. Always saves and gets easy kills when they chase him. As soon as he can't kill anyone he doesn't play to not hurt his stats. This is crazy maniac!

[@mariushager9983]

Like maniac said he is a defensive awper. No reason to throw the awp away in most 1vX post plants. Just not worth it. Yes his stats are inflated but tell me who is better than him.

[@f.iph7291]

@@mariushager9983 stats doesn't win games. Gambit played the perfect cs online and defensive style suited sh1ro for that style of play. But you see how hard he struggles in any different playstyle! He should not be in top 10 when his awping hasn't contributed to a single tournament win, or for that matter, quarters or semis. He is good against tier 2. I love s1mple and dev1ce but they should not be in top 10 when there are xertion, sunpayas, broky and etc. broky always had +1.1 rating while they were always in semis and finals now tell me which one is more valuable. shining in semis and finals or farming group stage. Sh1ro's playstyle only suits himself. He is not fun to watch. He can't win big tournaments. He is not good against the top 10. And clutching is what makes vitality and faze apart from the rest of the pack buddy. Watch the viewership of faze or vita matches and compare it to c9 matches. Sh1ro never takes risks, that's why he has always positive k/d even in losses. That's baiting. Same as blameF. Dev1ce played great throughout the year but they didn't play deep in tournaments but him and s1mple have less inflated stats because we know they are big match players as well. We saw nothing from sh1ro to prove this point. I'll take broky, torzi and sunpayas over him any day of the week.

[@garbandgulyberdimuhamedow4604]

@@f.iph7291 are you seriously trying to tell me xertion is better than sh1ro????? What?

[@TheHausmanis]

I think its exacly like you say about Hooxi vs AleksiB, Aleksi is like a "boss" IGL, and Nikos pride couldnt have that so bye bye to him, Hooxi is just leading in the way they tell him to lead so he gets to stay, he is the players IGL like you say.

[@Isitar]

What both of u do not mention concerning Falcons, is that they have the GOAT CS coach! How can u forget that in an assesment of a team? And maybe the best mental coach too. The organisation seams stabel and involved too, an coordinated with the coaches.

[@Housewallly]

Thanks ❤

[@delatroy]

I always think Maniac is Styko

[@jimbobuz]

🤣

[@retLAWMAD]

ahh yes. a very common confusion

[@HaasTheFirst]

I m sad there isn't an established "thorins top 20 players of the year" ranking is to rival the one of hltv. The latter is often just so flawed, just thinking about the 2018 rating makes me mad.

[@bobbobinski4285]

2017 was utter dogshit and so far 2023 isn't looking good either so far.

[@ThinkAboutVic]

2020 was a travesty too. BIG spent a significant part of the year at #1 just to get shafted by only having syrsoN there even though XANTARES looked incredible

[@bobbobinski4285]

If KPR is the king stat that can't be faked, then why is the #2 by KPR this year so low on your lists? NiKo has been extremely impressive sure, but he's only #4 by KPR in 2023 on LAN and falls to 8th at Big Events. m0nesy, spinx, and ropz are also all excellent, coming in 5th, 7th, and 8th respectively by KPR. It seems extremely weird as well to point out ropz needing to step up more as an individual than other players when he has broky and sometimes twistzz/rain to help him out. It might not be the highest level of fragging but Faze certainly has the deepest pockets in terms of WHO can step up when ropz can't do it alone. I don't understand the love for frozen and it reeks of recency bias to me. He's never the one brought up when people talk about low impact stat padders but he's the worst offender among elite lurkers. barely squeaking in above .7 KPR at .71, he's a far cry from NiKo's .76 or ropz, spinx, and m0nesy who all have .75. He has played far less than all three, with only 82 maps recorded at Big Events this year, just above players who get hammered for few appearances. The most damning thing to me about frozen is despite being one of the hardest lurks he's practically pedestrian in clutches. In order of clutches/round for lurkers: nertz, ropz, blameF, NAF, jks, Kscerato, b1t, spinx, frozen, with jabbi being the only worse lurker than frozen at clutching (and jabbi is only a half-lurk). Poor clutching, low KPR, and small sample size SHOULD cripple frozen but I never see it mentioned. While sh1ro gets criticized for small sample size he has a .78 KPR and is one of the best performers this year when playing top 5 and 10 opponents.

[@kripzzy6732]

Spinx is more of a lurker than ropz. Ropz is the first guy in entrying sometimes

[@hkmj8261]

Bring back Thorin to Major

[@jesusnavas2935]

If JKS isn't at least from 15 - 20 it's a dead list

[@deepakshinde8741]

Spinx should be number 3 and not ropz.. Its just recency bias for ropz..

[@ventsiR]

I don't think he's IGL of the year by any metric, maybe not even top 3, but how doesnt siuhy even get mentioned? He entered the scene in Mouz NXT with an academy league 4-peat... FOUR!!! Then he went to GamerLegion, finished 17-19th at a major 3 months after joining and then took that exact same lineup to the next major's final. Then in his second S-Tier event after re-joining Mouz, he won that. In the following 4 S-Tier events, he took Mouz to playoffs every single time, where they lost to FaZe every single time. Including world finals, where he didn't have his highest rated player. If I'm building an international lineup, after karrigan, Snappi and maybe apEX, I'm taking siuhy without a hesitation. This man can be the best IGL a year or two from now.

[@chef-b3337]

Siuhy is IGL of the year. He led a squad of randoms to 2nd place at the major and launched them into household names. Then he led Mouz to winning Pro League right after. Like holy crap, Apex and Karrigan lead teams of all-stars yet Siuhy can acheive the same success with objectively worse rosters.

[@20puskinas1992]

I disagree with maniac over best igl. Karrigan with Zywoo would have won even more than Vitality. Sure Broky is good player, but not close to Zywoo. You have 2 top 5 players in Vitality while Faze have 1. Then you add Robban leave and Neo transition to coach and it tells me everything. To be honest i pick siuhy and Snappi anyday over Apex.

[@madnessski7483]

But Heres the Joke Maniac

[@enomiellanidrac9137]

It would be insane to cut off S1mple from the top Just because he stopped along the way, he was still putting up numbers througout the CS:GO time of the year. It would be fair to think that his ranking might have gone down quite a bit because of it, I don't see him going out of the top 20, but with HLTV's ways I wonder if he'll end up not making the top 10 (which would be unfair in my opinion).

[@Jay-ll2qe]

g2 is overrated

[@tech4172]

RopZ is more consistent than niko this yr niko has been so up and down and he only popped off what 3 times total this yr? Htf is he #2 that's just bias. There's a handful of players that could over take niko this yr

[@f.iph7291]

Lol s1mple,sh1ro, dev1ce, blameF combined won nothing! And they are in top 10. Maniac you need to apologize to people like sunpayas, broky, xertion and etc.

[@user-wx6mi5xh7w]

If you're telling me xertion and broky looked anywhere near as good as s1mple, sh1ro, dev1ce, and blameF for the whole of 2023, you have to be kidding me, dude. SunPayus looks great, sure, but ENCE was good for about 1-2 months before their spot was taken over by VIT. By the time you finish calculating the top 10, SunPayus would have been left out. None of the players you listed has a game that looked as good as s1mple, sh1ro, dev1ce, and blameF.

[@f.iph7291]

@@user-wx6mi5xh7w none of s1mple, sh1ro, dev1ce, blameF and etc played in quarter, semis or finals. So their rating doesn't mean anything to me. Sure they are great players but in rating, 1.2 of let's say sunpayas should not and must not be equal to 1.2 from sh1ro. Ence were always in semis at least while sh1ro farmed group stages. Look at his stats. Sh1ro doesn't have even 5 clutches against top 10 teams in 2023 while Broky has over 40! So no I'm not kidding you. By your logic donk should be no1 because his ratings is out of this world!

[@user-wx6mi5xh7w]

@@f.iph7291 Why are you using amount of clutches as a metric??? Also, donk wasn't on LAN so of course I'm not counting him in. And imagine saying NAVI did not make quarters/semis/finals of any LAN events in 2023. You're apparently so biased you apparently only check certain metrics to back your point. Even just to make sure you have a fair shot at defending your honor, list your top 10 players of 2023. Not just CS2, not just CSGO, but the whole of 2023. By the time you put in NiKo, m0nesy, ZywOo, Spinx, ropz, that's already 5 spots gone. Then it's a bunch of extremely solid players the likes of s1mple, flameZ, Twistzz, stavn, jabbi, frozen, EliGE, dev1ce, magisk, Nertz, SunPayus, and broky. Take your pick. Even if you insist on picking new and flashy hot stars that's still 4 places immediately gone (flameZ, SunPayus, Nertz, frozen). Imagine saying xertioN has a chance in the top 10? And where did broky's cold spells on LAN being one of the factors FaZe couldn't find their IGS go? What are you even watching??? Also, yes, I like watching SunPayus; he still has some serious competition to get into top 10 of 2023. Don't fool yourself.

[@j11889]

is apex top 20 because he won more than them?

[@f.iph7291]

@@user-wx6mi5xh7w all you said proved my point. You never once mentioned sh1ro as a top 10 or a possible top 10. I am using clutches to show why sh1ro's stats are over inflated buddy. Because he holds angles, kills a guy and if the site is overruned he would save. He never clutches and you must watch the way he saves. He will bhop and run the hell out of there not to hurt his stats. Just watch a sh1ro demo and you will know why i hate that playstyle. James is better than sh1ro at that playstyle so maybe put james in top 10? Top 5 is obvious. I would put sunpayas, broky, nertz, magisk, xertion 6 to 10. S1mple, sh1ro and dev1ce should be out of the top 10. They didn't play deep in tournaments so their ratings for me are totally inflated. Sh1ro has super overinflated ratings. Ratings matter as long as there is big trophy behind it. I am Ronaldo's biggest fan and he has scored 53 goals this year in the Saudi League. By your logic he is top 1 this year? Nope.