Why 12 Speed is better for your Ebike | Marshall Mullen

Most ebikes come standard with an 11 speed cassette. There is a reason why a 12 speed setup is better. This is a detailed explanation of how and why the 12 speed works better for ebikes.
My 12 speed SRAM AXS setup can be found here:
www.sram.com/e...
Turbo Levo:
www.specialize...
#Specialized #ebike #SRAM

[@robhaskins3068]

In Australia we are using Rohloff 14 speed hubs. Really works well with 2 lower gears and one higher than std. Great thing about Rohloff is you can select any number of gears instantly even when Stopped. Heavier Chain always runs inline and much less vulnerable . We use Eco at 20/30% , Trail at 35% / 55 % and Turbo at 60% / 100% settings on Levo's for all the same reasons. Pricey but Despite the high cost of living it remains popular. E=Mtb². Fun Fun Fun. Emtbs are Time Machines that turn us into gleeful kids again and vastly broaden our ability to explore terrain multiplying the benefits of one of mans greatest inventions the bicycle.

[@kenww776]

I saw your Levo conversion. What’s the weight penalty? Cost? $AUD

[@robhaskins3068]

@@kenww776 It's hard to get importance of lightweight out of our thoughts. Rohloff probably ½ kg heavier but you don't notice it on a Emtb. Your body weight is relevant with Emtbs not really bike weight. For me at 63kg Carbon frames are a waste of money as 70 to 90 Nm torque overcomes any bike component weight. Buy a 700wh(4kg) battery or extra 500wh (3kg) instead of Carbon components. Actually a heavier bike/ rider on downhill is an advantage. Contact Paul Moir at Rohloff Australia for a price. Cheers E=Mtb²

[@aaronlevel7]

I converted my Kenevo to Sram EX1, 8 speed 11-48t range is awesome, just don't have to keep shifting gears. I've had no issue with keeping cadence constant when climbing with the 8 speed. And the super smooth shifting under power is amazing, been bullet proof so far!

[@mozzjones6943]

I've heard bad things about that EX1 Derailleur, It's length and weakness.. Plus the space is too much between the gears, and some have said the shifting is not great. I'm interested in this system but for the price I'm gonna be paying and the bad things I've heard I'm not so sure lol

[@aaronlevel7]

@@mozzjones6943 I can only comment on my own experience so far. My bike gets some pretty hard abuse in Queenstown New Zealand. The shifting is awesome. :)

[@LittleBozo]

Your absolutely right. A wider range is so important to get peak performance from the bike and the rider.

[@ryamldess]

Thanks for this video, totally agree. I'm a bit strange, started mountain-biking about a year and a half ago well into my middle age at 50. As a result, I started on a really weird bike, a 2017 Riese & Muller Homage that originally had a Nuvinci CVT shared with my wife. That drivetrain did not age well and was really not cutting it even for city riding in San Francisco on the extremely steep hills we have here, so I built a new rear wheel for it with a Velocity Dually rim, Sapim Strong spokes, a Hope Pro 4 hub and upgraded to a SRAM GX Eagle groupo (minus of course cranks pr chainring). That combination with even an old gen2 Bosch CX turned it into a hill-eating beast and is what got me into mountain biking. My findings have been similar to yours, but I would add that reduced torque also decreases wear on the components, and prevents spin-outs that sometimes occur with hill climbs using too much power, which leads to stalls because you go from a ton of torque to basically none because you have no traction. And as a corollary to not lugging your motor as much and allowing you to reduce your assistance level, it extends range quite a lot on hilly rides. I later got a Ride1UP Prodigy XC, which is a hard-tail trail bike, knowing I would upgrade it with better components (haven't skilled up enough to feel I can spend >=$8k on a full suspension e-mtb yet). It's kind of a deal, because it has a Brose TF Sprinter motor in it; but the stock components are not great. It was fun with those components, but when I slapped on a hand-me-down 11-speed Sunrace cassette (11-50T) with some not-too-expensive Shimano components, it really unleashed it on trail rides with lots of steep ascents. I'm waiting for spokes to build up a new rear wheel for that bike, again with a Hope Pro 4 and SRAM Components (and a 9-52T e*thirteen cassette). I also picked up a QuietKat Jeep recently, which has a Bafang mid-drive G510 Ultra motor on it, because it was on sale for $2k off list and I needed a replacement for the Riese & Nuvinci which is going back to dedicated wife duty (did too good a job making it awesome ;)), so I won't have an all-rounder for city riding anymore. That bike unfortunately also has a Shimano HG freehub, so I have to settle a bit and will probably get a Garbaruk 12-speed 11-52T, because finding an XD driver for the stock Quanta fat bike hub has been difficult and I'm already building a full wheelset for the trail bike. I haven't taken the QuietKat on trail rides yet, but have climbed a lot of hills with it already. Those 3 bikes are very different and have 3 different power systems--a full power Bosch CX, a mid-power Brose TF Sprinter, and a ridiculously powered Bafang Ultra--different geometries, weights, handling characteristics, etc. Yet across all of those bikes, the experience has remained the same--too low a range on steep ascents reduces range massively, overheats the motor, over-torques the chain, leads to spin outs and stalls, etc. This is why I have to laugh at the people who occasionally liken an e-bike to a motorcycle. I feel like the people still stuck on calling e-bike riders 'cheaters' are being left increasingly far behind because not only is that primitive binary not true, there is so much more depth and nuance to how to optimize e-bike riding--it is not a traditional bicycle, but it is also not a moped or a motorcycle, which is why it has its own category and legal status. It's like a bionic prosthetic for bike riders, and much more than any other kind of vehicle, you really have to be in tune with it as you say to get the most out of it. If I lived somewhere flat maybe it would be different, but I will never again settle for lower-range or even mid-range cassettes on e-bikes.

[@thewrx2600]

I do appreciate your video on this topic, but I disagree. To be honest I haven't tried a 12x yet on my Levo (non-SL), but have run a variety of 11x cassettes. I am able to climb efficiently (between 35-65% assist) with almost never having to shift to the largest sprocket, and I am not newb. The benefits I see to running a 8x or 9x cassette would be 3 reasons: 1st you get at tighter gear spread and getting in just the right cadence is actually easier, and easier on the drivetrain I would imagine. 2nd, I rarely use the the top 2-3 sprockets when i ride singletrack or even climibing of a fire road (not because I am in turbo or lazy). 3rd, with the 8x-9x cassettes you are getting a shorter derailleur and beefier chain to match. That is a big benefit as I frequently have issues with the rear mech getting wound up and even breaking off entirely from tall grass or debris from the longer derailleur arm that is required for an 11x, especially for a 12x. Thoughts? Also, the cadence in these motors could potentially be altered by the winding of the motor in general; just like any electric motor it can be wound for high rpm lower torque or lower rpm higher torque. We just need specialized to start offering different power units for different riders, or hope the aftermarket gets in gear and starts offering more e-bike specific options, especially in the calibration/customization of the canbus system.

[@cosmicheretic8129]

I completely agree with you which is why I'm getting a 10 speed linkglide drivetrain tomorrow to install on my turbo levo.

[@worldstallestmidget]

I took your advice and it is so much better now! You can really get the natural feel of a regular bike. I tell people who have them it’s not always about being in turbo all the time. It’s fun at first

[@MarshallMullen1]

That is great! It's very true. Good job!

[@worldstallestmidget]

@@MarshallMullen1 do you use axs?

[@pattersonstark70]

Ya, even with the 11-50, 11 speed I have really worked with cadence and mission control to see where the power sweet spot is and how dramatically it affects range. Great points made Marshall and I would say mission control with the new TCU is the ticket for getting it down. I ride in excess of 8000 k per year and have abolished range anxiety since upping my gear usage and lowering the power. Also, with the AXS I have to charge the battery every 3 weeks, not 6 as I did with I first got the setup. Thanks again - great message! Cheers from New Zealand

[@fuellerr]

100% agree with this I've been doing this on all my past 4 Ebikes and the other thing is I typically end up using a 34T because I mainly try to ride Eco which gives me a longer battery run time

[@johnwilliamson9453]

You are absolutely correct about cadence and motor rpm (motor cadence). Thanks for this vlog, very helpful. BTW, what is your optimal cadence?

[@byronswogger]

I keep it at 11 speed because of the wider more durable chain, also each cog is wider and more durable. THEN I get the wider range ebike specific e-thirteen cassette. It's 9-48 tooth. Now you get the best of both worlds.

[@adriandaniel83]

Awesome! Thank you for making this video. Informative and logically laid out points on e-bike drivertrains&gearing.👍👌🤙

[@Dwyeb73]

You are spot on I absolutely agree. I currently run 11 speed on the Kenevo. I have had the 12 speed on the Levo. 12 speed hands down.

[@Lee-ic2yn]

Seriously the 2 biggest cogs are ridiculously easy if you actually have the motor on

[@Dwyeb73]

@@Lee-ic2yn Couple of things for me. Cadence for one and when climbing it keeps me from torquing to much which helps to keep my traction. Basically just helps from slipping just a little more.

[@Lee-ic2yn]

@@Dwyeb73 sorry didn't see this I understand what you mean I just find myself spinning out in those gears at a ridiculously high cadence, but maybe I don't ride as steep terrain as you

[@Dwyeb73]

@@Lee-ic2yn very possible and it’s not all the time that I am climbing that type vertical. Tires and bike geometry play a large role as well. I’m at 46 degrees on my front end with the Kenevo which really helps distribute some of the weight and with a 35 mm neck and 27 mm rise bars it seems to really climb well. Good Maxxis tires help a bunch to. My cadence even though can get fast I just am methodical with staying a little over the back tire. Again with a 46 degree front it helps not to include I converted the bike to a full 29.

[@BrandonViani]

Great advice! I never thought about it.

[@rickbault1221]

I'm new to your channel. Your clarity in explaining this topic is great!

[@MarshallMullen1]

Thank you man! appreciate it

[@geemy9675]

I ve never ridden emtb, but my understanding is that in the same trails I'm riding with my mechanical MTB, I would ride faster uphill with an eMTB, but I wouldn't go faster downhill...hence the logic for a cheaper/lighter narrower cassette. plus the pedal assist means you don't always have to be exactly at your optimal cadence. also faster speed/acceleration means you're going through the gears even faster, so less speeds can help too .I know the most technical climbs you'll still have to slow down but still, climbing even at the same speed with an emtb should be possible in a higher gear, spinning slower, with the help of pedal input plus pedal assist. I guess for pedalling on the less technical flat sections I could use larger chairing / longer gearing though. it sounds like the box component 8 or 9 speed wide range evoke optimized 12-50 cassettes could be the best compromise between range/number of gears/chain width/minimum sprocket size to avoid to much wear on the chain

[@Lee-ic2yn]

Which hub do you need for a box components set up?

[@IchimokuCloud]

I have a Levo and in process of selling my analog. Bike shop told be an upgrade to 12 speed would increase the resale price of my analog bike by like $600. I declined (just let a buyer do what they want) but it sounds like a trend. How much cost to upgrade to 12 speed? Also I hear the chain is the weakness - need thinner chain and longer chain stay. Chain is one of the weak spots of a eMTB, so I would be reluctant to put a less robust chain on my bike.

[@RichardUttingSharpshootingUK]

I completely agree

[@graysquirreltreeservice7299]

Great thoughts, I agree, my levo 2020 expert has 11 ,I see all have 12 now 👍👍👍

[@ne112]

Not sure why my comment got deleted but here we go again. I bought my 2020 Turbo Levo Expert Carbon, in November 2020 with zero MTB experience . Today is July4th and I now have 1000 miles under my tires and I absolutely love it ! ,,,, I blew my motor and my local Bike Shop got me the new updated version for free and it took 12 days and then I blew my rear end and they got me the new updated version along with 2 new carbon wheels for free and it took 12 days , so I'm happy with the brands. The motor made uphill fun and suddenly I became a downhill rider . Now that I have some experience, I feel like I want a 27.5 on the rear and more travel up front . The 2022 comes stock like this so it must be a good idea, I just want to make sure my frame will like the adjustment. I would love some thoughts on this please ? ? ?

[@snowsue1973]

Thanks for this very informative video! 😃

[@monicaausnit]

😎👍🏻 Looks really nice.

[@Leo73rr]

200% right! E bike is a mtb with the ASSISTANCE of a motor. It is not a motor bike with the nuisance of pedaling and shifting...

[@mtbmike9866]

Just switch to Shimano 12x for ebikes and it is a game changer. No more clunky shifting up or down under load

[@LuisManuelHdez]

I'm going to say.. like on any bike , your fitness level will dictate that cadence. For me , I prefer the 12 sp my bike came with. On steep climbs that 52 tooth cassette allows me to climb comfortably.

[@RCKING1]

12 speed is simply just not better. The small chains and tight tolerances of a 12 speed system just don’t work great with a motor. The added weight, cost and lower durability is just not worth it.

[@MajidHashemi11]

Agreed! Is that a 29” rear wheel?

[@MrJay_White]

how long are your chains and chainrings lasting? i use my bike for work commute and the thinner components wore out so fast i went back to 7 speed, and now a hub gear to make use of bmx chains and the easily replaced sprockets.

[@geoffreyhawkes6701]

I have a Vado Turbo, would the same recommendation apply as for the Levi mountain bike? I live in a hilly part of the UK and use it mainly on paved roads

[@lsc193]

Did you buy the whole SRAM XX1 Eagle AXS DUB Groupset ? Or just the cassette? Or which one did you buy?

[@jonathanbyrd12]

So I put a hub motor on my road bike but so far every hub I have used only has 7 or 8 gears. My rear motor hub is a free hub with 7 gears. Can I put a 11 or 12 speed 105 groupset on there? Also my motor is so strong that I am in the highest gear front and back and still can't keep up with speed. Do they make a gearset for really fast speeds?

[@aliasrandom9241]

You don’t need 12 speed to achieve same range… and with the motor you don’t need tight spacing between gears.

[@emtbtrailrider539]

Exactly what I tell my friends

[@simonchaddock3694]

What is stock gearing on a ebike or are there different ones for each brand cheers

[@ChristianJohnsons]

I still prefer 8speed 11-48 EX1 and realistically I only use the bottom 5 gears. I ride trails with a lot of alternating sleep climbs and descents so being able to jump into my climbing gears with minimal shifting is key to keeping a good flow. 12 gears is fine if you can always plan your climbs way in advance but with single shift on ebikes it translates to slow shifting. Like you said, you’re constantly shifting. No thanks

[@reiddryden9805]

On this note what do you consider the perfect rpm ie cadence?!

[@barryholt3526]

box components prime 9 wide range groupset. 11-50t.

[@worldstallestmidget]

I have switched to a 11-46 with the 11 speed. Buying 75$ cassette is way cheaper and just as good as 12 speed. Going to try a 11-50 11s by by black box. Sill a 100 chickens is way better the switching a whole drive train.

[@worldstallestmidget]

Sorry it's a box components

[@yd1792]

MORE speed you have - thinner your chain. For ebike it is very critical to have thicker and more durable chain. Plus your motor has internal gears. 12 is way too much what you need, but risk to rip your chain in the middle of the noware is not fun.

[@StromerMan]

Can you make this same adjustment to the turbo creo?

[@snapsnap1]

I agree with you about constantly shifting when I upgraded my vado to the eagle NX. I use a wolf 36T chainring drop stop A and it pairs very well. Can you tell me if you are able to shift well under load with the wireless AXS and what chainring u are using. Thanks

[@MarshallMullen1]

You can downshift very well, but upshift, I usually let off the power a little bit before I shift.

[@LumosMx]

I have a 2021 Turbo Levo Comp. The chain continues to jump over (skip) cogs in the lower (harder to peddle) gears. Will this help with my issue?

[@MarshallMullen1]

If you have a 2021, you probably already have 12 speed on the bike. Does your bike have the Shimano on it?

[@pawelodz8050]

I still think 12 gears are pointless. I would use 8 gears but shimano 8 speed is to weak for ebike and sram 8s for ebike toooo expensive. I will stay with 10s SLX. Most optimal eco ride with bosch CX ebike

[@StromerMan]

Depends on NM torque low end torque wider cassette really helps.

[@evo5349]

On my Kenovo i run a SLX 11 speed as the 11/46 is stronger than the Sram 11 speed as i always wear out 10th gear then it wears out the rest as it slips, now running a 12 speed rear deraillier as bent my 11 speed and it changes better and 12 speed chains x 4 as i change my chain every ride the wash and boil my chains in putoline grease. Found a steel bodied freehub now waiting for that as the standard freehub is alloy and destroyed. Now have found hair line cracks on my rear wheel Roval DH alloy rim at every driveside spoke so going to contact Specialized as only done 600 miles and recieved a email from Roval yesterday.

[@cosmicheretic8129]

I ditched the roval wheels that came on my entry level levo for hunt e enduro wheels that have a steel steel free hub and extra beefy build. I love them!

[@electricpedal5531]

Igh is better and perfect pair for me ,wear in cassette is so fast using electric motor i change already 2 cassette in a year but currently im in igh i haven't change still holding nexus 4 and i use 2x to widen the range

[@kenwatts8832]

What speed do the high speed comp and reboud setings

[@Joop-Adrie]

Shifting shifting, should be nice to have automatic gear.

[@graysquirreltreeservice7299]

So is the gen.3 levo mullet bad ass or what ???love to hear your thoughts 😁👍

[@MarshallMullen1]

It is BAD ASS! The new Gen 3 is insane. It handles so well, and it is adjustable to exactly what you want. It is a huge improvement over the previous model

[@graysquirreltreeservice7299]

@@MarshallMullen1 ty😁😁

[@scann563]

electric motors have a theoretical max torque at 0rpm. your statement that they "work best when they're spinning fast" is false. However...I run a 12 speed eagle as well and cadence is very important.

[@turbolevo8703]

Not applicable to how mtb motors actually work.

[@scann563]

@@turbolevo8703 please explain

[@f50koenigg]

Is it possible to upgrade a 7 speed ebike in to 12 speed?

[@mozzjones6943]

No. Your hub is specific to 7 speed

[@evo5349]

Listen up. Most people can't afford this Sram electric 12 speed and dropper post and dealerships can't sell it as there stock levels are full as I checked on off the UKs largest cycle suppliers. You might have loads off money but I haven't.

[@worldstallestmidget]

Look into black box 11speed 11-50. I got 11-46. Seems to work great! Trying 11-50 next time I need one

[@worldstallestmidget]

Sorry it's box components! 105 bucks US

[@pawelodz8050]

Yeah they are crazy priced. I am using SLX 10S 11-36T and is totally enough and quite cheap

[@denoki]

hi marshall. can you please tell me the unchanged wheel size of the kenevo 2020

[@MarshallMullen1]

What do you mean by "unchanged"?

[@denoki]

@@MarshallMullen1the wheel size in mission control app. i let my dealer/friend change to 2000 ... now i did not know the original wheel size

[@denoki]

@@MarshallMullen1 i wanted to cancel the correction.

[@henriksjoblom1]

That might be true if you run AXS. If not stay away if you want reliability

[@tayorsnr81]

What's AXS?

[@mattx4253]

I'm still waiting for you tell me how 12 beats 11. 1 tooth at bottom and 8 on the top makes no difference at all. The only reason to change is that axs is 12 only. This really is splitting hairs to justify the 12 speed because spesh just put 12 on the 21 levo

[@bfranco1519]

Then why doesn't it come with a 12spd? Tired of ebikes coming with a cheaper spec. Has Specialized addressed how unreliable these motors have been? I disagree with a 12 spd. because of durability. 12 spd chains are weaker. You get free parts as a sponsered rider.

[@Accu53Mation]

Well. It's not better for your affordability. I have a eMTB, with PW-x3, and a simple, no-hassle, reliable ten speed components. What's wrong snowflakes? Ya really need those large cogs so ya don't sweat going uphill?