Why the Front Derailleur is Still Better (for MTB)

[@DTSquared]

Years ago, just out of curiosity I counted all the teeth on front and rear cogs and made up a spreadsheet calculating the effective gear ratios on a 3x9 rig. One thing I found that was not mentioned is that several of the ratios were actually identical. So the number combinations was 3x9=27 actual ratios available was 20 and if you round the true ratio to one decimal place then there were only actually 18 different gears and of course some of those would be unusable due to bad chain lines.

[@lunam7249]

very very good my friend!!! correct❤!❤...thats the users fault....the original designers use wierd numbers of teeth.. like 53, 29, 39, 37... because they dont likely combined to the same gears as you describe!!! mathematically its similar to "prime" numbers....😮...also the extremes are not good...big front big gear rear...or small front on small rear...angles the chain to much..

[@alesgroch2135]

Dont forget that besides mathematical ratios, there is also the difference between crank lenght (you have bigger torque/power on mid ring than on big ring, although you drive the same distance). EDIT: it goes the same but opposite on a casette, so it plays no role.

[@wobblysauce]

This indeed. After some thought after watching the video, wasn’t thinking about it. Most of my time is still middle, hills drop down and hills go up, normally don’t use the rear set- normally middlish as a fine tune. But use the front as my main gear selection

[@flizzycat]

I also did this for my 18-speed bike and found only one duplicate. 3-1 and 1-5 are 3:2

[@miseriadocao]

But that is actually good , if you have that gear you like and use a lot and that cog starts to wear you can use the other one identical and prolong the lifespan of your equipment.

[@MW-fr7bx]

The cheapest conversion from a 3x to a 1x is to just not shift out of the middle chain ring

[@Simon-nx1sc]

yea, but then you only have a gear change ratio of 28/12 (1:12) in standard rear casettes. And it's still heavy. To only use 1 front gear AND have large gear range, you'll need something like the 50/10 example he showed you at 1:22 , and that costs money.

[@rex9003]

i have accidentally been running that conversion on my shit bike for years

[@adamt195]

@@Simon-nx1sc 10/50 is a bit overboard in most cases. 11-46T cassettes are much cheaper and come in 9 speed versions.

[@johngonzalez1193]

@@rex9003 lol

[@johnsonjay60]

Yep, that's what I always found myself doing

[@MattLowne]

The chain retention point is actually really interesting, since it makes total sense but isn't something I would have considered!

[@tobinwilson564]

Really cool seeing one of my favorite ksp youtubers on this channel.

[@yeetyeet1783]

You are now legally obliged to send a bike to space in ksp

[@MattLowne]

@@yeetyeet1783 I mean I upload bike videos a lot on my second channel haha

[@Nonnopenahnadanuhuh]

Never thought Id see you here

[@popeclementxi7303]

love your cycling vids, very good to have in the background of a revision session

[@eclogite]

As a city cyclist who likes to sometimes go fast but lives on a steep hill, I appreciate my 3x greatly. Also cheap is nice. Had no idea 1x drive trains were also less durable until now though, that's interesting

[@emilycs8823]

replacement cassette for 3x are dirt cheap and can be had for $15-20. 6-8 speed chains are dirt cheap which is bonus for comuter thats going to have drivetrain wear. I like 3x on hybrid for city riding in traffic when you get going fast and have to stop for a light. Its easier to just drop down in the front like a sudden punchy mtb climb.

[@jakemccoy]

Is durability really an issue on a front gear?

[@Honir4]

@@jakemccoy yes it is

[@jakemccoy]

@@Honir4 How is a 1x less durable than a 3x? I don't understand.

[@Honir4]

@@jakemccoy 3x shares the load around the 3 rings 1x u only have that single ring and it's gonna wear faster especially if used with 9 or more speeds that require a thinner chain,most 3x use 6 or 7 speeds and the chain for that is thicker so it last longer

[@trocycling1204]

I'm an racer, full time cycling coach, and use a 2x, even though it's a bit unorthodox is the pro field I'm racing in. I understand the 1x advantages, but I prefer smaller steps between gears so I can dial in my cadence.

[@yengsabio5315]

Currently, I use a 2x9 transmission system. It's flexible, fast, & easy to uphill.

[@JoaoPauloSoares61]

@@yengsabio5315 2x is probably the best option

[@Ferrari255GTO]

The Lapierre Froggy 318 (2009) i had came with a 2X. The second dish was so small you needed a motorbike engine attached to the crankset to move the bike on any other gear that wasn't 9th.

[@geemy9675]

@@Ferrari255GTO 36x22 in the front, 11x34 in the back ? doest sound that extreme my 2010 slayer had 44-32-22 and 11x34. I used all the gears on the 22 chainring except the granny gear usually to almost "rest" during a long climb

[@Ferrari255GTO]

@@geemy9675 idk what gearing it had, all i know is that it literally felt useless to me. I ended up going 10 speed with a 38 in the front and a 9-32 in the back i think. I had to modify a bit the spacing on the cranks because the dish would rub on the frame ever so slightly.

[@beckobert]

As someone who rides with rodies on his mtb every once in a while, the ability of the 3-by drive train to have a bigger gear is also a huge advantage. If you want a really low gear, all you need is a big cassette in the end, but there is an obvious limit to how small the smallest gear on your cassette is. So having a bigger ring up front allows me to have gear that can go 50kph by paddling.

[@youtubeaccount9058]

True, but with the fat tires and upright seating of an mtb, so much of the energy you put into pushing a tall gear at a high speed is wasted on wind resistance and rolling resistance, and you lose a lot of ground clearance with a big chainring. People used to run an 4th dummy chainring (a "Rock Ring") to take the abuse. Once suspension became popular, that further reduces ground clearance when it compresses, so a big front chainring would hit constantly. I think where we've landed - with the 1x on MTB and 2x on road bikes - is the right way to go.

[@DavidBergman1776]

This is definitely me

[@QwantomLeaper]

@@youtubeaccount9058 pretty sound logic but I still think a 2x should be on MTB

[@BESHYSBEES]

@@youtubeaccount9058 back in the late 90’s I rode DH MTB the 3x would always catch or bottom out, i used to unbolt the bigger cogs and put them in my camelback to go DH, also made our own spring tensioners for the rear derailer to keep ya chain on

[@colinmcdonald2499]

The point you make, may miss some riders who don't have access to prominent elevation loss. As you say... With long sustained mountainous decents, you will use that 3rd chain ring to pedal over a certain speed. I run 3x 9 on my gravel/touring/ do it all. When I am doing semi technical unpaved decents... The 3rd chain ring does not really come into play. But when I get off the fire road and still have 30 or 50km of paved mountains roads left...

[@aaronhuie7013]

One of the things that I like about multi-chainring drivetrains, and the reason I went with a 2x on the gravel bike I bought recently, is because I like the smaller steps between the cassette gears. The wide-range cassettes that are necessary to get the climbing capability for 1x systems just necessitate comparatively giant jumps between gears. The same smaller-jumps-between gears characteristic can be attributed to 3x mountain bikes, although terrain usually changes more dramatically and more quickly when using a MTB as it's designed, which really makes the bigger jumps of 1x systems more helpful. But for rolling terrain where you get slower or more subtle changes in incline, and generally longer, more steady climbs, the smaller jumps between gears make it much easier to fine-tune your cadence to your speed and incline, which makes for more comfortable riding.

[@jfrtbikgkdhjbeep9974]

especially if you remain seated to pedal, i like that comfort, i would love to see a large, medium chainring on 2x .. not the medium , small system i have now

[@electrocit673]

@@jfrtbikgkdhjbeep9974 back in the old days there was a setup called dual range. you had a 18 to 22 tooth difference in a 2x system. The shifting pattern was to use all the rear gears in the big chainring then switch to the small chainring ( big/big to small/small). There was also the halfstep setup. using a small tooth difference in front chainrings (52/48) and wider range cassette. you switch the front chain ring to slightly change the candence. the shifting pattern was to alternate shifing the rear and front for smoother shiftng.

[@scottlynch449]

Bingo! Yeah, a 1x has the same range, but the gaps can be massive. I run it on my enduro bike and I'm constantly between gears. Not the case on 2x hardtail. Spinning is winning. and btw Seh... It's spelled deraillEUr, not deraillEr.

[@SethJayson]

Exactly. On a touring bike anyway (geared for heavy loads uphill) I'd much rather have the 3x9 system than any 1 or 2x. Wide range AND narrow steps for getting that right cadence = much better day of pedaling. I mountain biked for the first time in a decade a few weeks ago on a 1x system and I *hated* the big steps between gears.

[@nikispaniki]

Not to mention the expense of a wide range rear cassette. I can buy an 11-28 for $13. How much is an 11-50? Triples are the best solution. You just have to lighten up on the pedals as you shift. Not so hard. And the cost of an 8spd chain? $8.

[@Marximarks]

I have been MTBing for about 28 years and recently thought about changing my old 3x9 26er mtb just for the whole reason of being up-to-date but after carefully analyzing what gains I might get from modernizing, I figured all the things you said-quick downshift with one flick when faced with a sudden steep climb, maintain better cadence (esp on those long uphills), straighter and more efficient chain line, and, to me, front derailleur use is really not that complicated and the weight savings is not that big of a deal. So I kept the 3x9. Besides, I don’t wanna throw away my XTRs after spending so much money in upgrades a few years back. The 11x36 cogs in the back and 22t up front lets me climb anything.

[@mmtot]

I have a 17-year old hardtail with an XTR 27 speed groupset with a rapid rise rear mech which I love. It means when you come to a steep hill you just click click click the back and the reversed spring rear mech does all the work. And you can click down 1 at the front. The thought of having to fight the spring to go down 10 or 12 gears sounds like a nightmare.

[@borisjankovici662]

I pretty much did the same thing 3 years ago. I was building a new bike and figured there was no reason not to try it. There is not really any benefit to a 1X. The best benefit to a 3X is wear. Based on fitness, riders stay withing a small final drive ratio. By changing the chain ring you can use different gears on the cassette to get the same final drive ratio. If your rear is skipping/not shifting well, changing to a different chain ring can give better shifting by using less worn gears on the cassette. I have been blowing through drivetrains since I went 1X. And it was extremely difficult to get it set up and shifting right. I don't know how people are meeting the chain line "specifications". The most amusing thing about 1X drivetrains is people rolling around with those gargantuan cassettes. You're only going to use a small set of those gears based on fitness. Nobody needs all of those gears. Total gimmick. I run a 1X9 with a bigger ring in front than anyone I've seen and 11T out back, and on some trails top out the bike. Never mind if I ride it on the road.

[@sven31415]

I have a 15 year old 3x9 26" MTB and also don't wanna change. I borrowed a 1x 12 MTB with full suspention and that thing didn't climb. It was heavy and was missing at least 2 gears for climbing. As it got really steep like 20% climb with gravel, I had to walk. The day before I tested it with my old 3x9 26" MTB and I could climb it.

[@playz_J]

let me guess it was a giant XTC 3

[@balonbalonparty6385]

I have bought used 15 years old fs bike with 3x9 xt drivetrain. This thing can't die.

[@davesloat9006]

I’m still riding my 20 yr old Trek hard tail 3x8, but now in more of a cross over mode with hybrid tires (unfortunately, I’m no longer in CO). I love the 3x setup because I think of it as 3 modes for the bike. Small ring for climbs, mid ring for neighborhood or flat trails, and large ring for speed. As long as my front gear is in the right mode, the 8 gear cassette in the back gives me all the range of gearsI need for each situation. Then again, I’m also a huge fan of stick shift cars. Now get off my lawn! Lol

[@Isaiah-ft5nx]

Stick shifts are the best!

[@saintless]

Just built up two 3x10 bikes and that's part of my reasoning.. if I'm on pavement I'll be in the 48t 95% of the time unless I hit a steep climb. Gravel? Mostly stay in my 36t. I only use the 26t on really big hills or riding around on more technical terrain. Likewise with a 44t for mostly pavement, 32t offroad, and 22t when I need to ride uphill through snow in both directions while being chased by a wild pack of dodos. Sure I could be more focused on optimizing chainline and I will if I'm just cruising around but for the most part I just pick the best front gear for the terrain I'm riding and stay in it... just as "simple" as 1x but much more versatile.

[@noliemig]

@@saintless the main problem with 3x is not the "complication" but the chain retention issues you will have when you actually ride hard

[@DTraylor]

😂😂😂😂 now get off my lawn.

[@BrandonMeyer1641]

@@noliemig higher end 3x setups like Shimano alivio 9 speed alleviate these issues. I find that if I do drop a chap in I can just use my front shifter to get things back in order. The real low end systems are a different story

[@newttella1043]

Running a 44 tooth front ring on an 11 tooth cog with little 26" wheels still goes faster on the road sections than my 1x 29er. That 44 tooth chainring is almost 20 years old too. This is why 90s mountain bikes make great city bikes.

[@dauf69]

Agreed. Old MTB's with 3x are nearly bombproof, have higher gearing for the roads, and the geometry tended to be a little more aggresive and a little more aerodynamic.

[@newttella1043]

@@dauf69 Yes, my 110mm stem certainly puts me in aero position nicely.

[@154Jamesp]

Steel chain rings is where it's at. Steel rear derailleur cages too. They literally last forever. And breaking a 3x chain is next to impossible.

[@andrei-desu5361]

hell yeah, my steel 90s MTB was given to me by my father which he used in his college days. Thing is a tank, i've crashed it multiple times but the bike still runs fine lol. The 3x allows me to climb steep hills and allow me to draft with roadies

[@jpobz4129]

And i agree to that. My 26er trek fuel has a 3x10 deore. Still way faster than those who has 1x12 29er and 650 rider. Its a bomb proof.

[@Tallretrodude]

Next minute: Seth explains why the throttle shift is superior.

[@rex9003]

Having recently ridden and old bike with a throttle shift and can i say, absolute pain because you will approach a climb and twist the wrong way and boom, your fucked

[@singletona082]

@@rex9003 oh god, I'm not the only one that does this.

[@jadoncampbell2740]

@@rex9003 or when you hit a jump or a drop and on landing shift up or down 2 to 6 gears at a time

[@sebastianczech5322]

I'd be surprised if so...

[@Android480]

Or Matty Cranmer’s throttle breaks

[@rowanbelt3612]

Personally, I like 3x for road biking because you can treat the chainrings as uphill, flat, and downhill sets of gears respectively. Also, on 2x and 3x you can shift to the smallest ring when approaching a red light and it’s very easy and hassle-free to start up again. The fact that I run friction shifters probably has a lot to do with this haha

[@Param4954s]

Saame. I have a 3x7 (21 speed) mtb and I always ride on 2x 4 or 2x5 gear and if there's any emergency braking situation j shift 1 gear low on both sides. I cannot surely live with a 1x bike.

[@st.leibowitz6463]

@@Param4954s I have also come to this conclusion... 99spokes does a really great 'speed compare' between bike models and the 3x9 is SIGNIFICANTLY faster (35 mph top speed vs ~25mph) than the 1x options available today. On my daily ride I frequently use the top gear coming down an incline to build energy for the next hill and I am frustrated trying to find a modern xc bike that can do that. My 2003 marlin can keep up with cars on windy mountain roads.

[@Param4954s]

@@st.leibowitz6463 well it's been 6 months in my bicycle and I'm doing great. I'm riding uphill with 3x5 or 3x7 now for long stretches and it feels good. Can't wait for the future bicycle innovations tho! Recently I was dreaming about a 5x9 or 5x12 bicycle and it was a bit too much I accept it But online I found a few companies like 1 or 2 making the front derailleur and spokes kit of 4 and 5 gears (did my research as I was curious) and what if we put a 12 one for the behind?

[@meklu]

On a 3x7 I always ride on 3x5. If there's a downhill or an extended flat I'll shift up to 3x7. If there's a really steep uphill and I'm carrying a bunch of stuff, I'll shift down to 2x5. Three gears is more than enough for all uses.

[@carsonchambers5617]

@@st.leibowitz6463 You wanna talk about speed you should see the crazy big chain ring 1x’s the Olympic speed trial racers were using!😂 It looks like starting in the biggest, and highest gears on a 3x. Absolute slog fest to start but once they get going they fly lol.

[@dickenscider4677]

The one reason I'm still sticking with a 3X, that is the higher cruise speed on tarmac using the biggest chainring. 36T ring with 11T cassette is still kinda in the chill pace for me.

[@RomanBaranovic]

my words, riding 48x11 just gives me more speed on flat or downhill

[@andrei-desu5361]

exactly, without that 48T my roadie friends would leave me behind lol

[@geoffbaker4625]

given all my trails involve long sections of roads to get to them, I'm sticking with a 3x10 setup, that gives me better road speed and better low gear then a 1X setup; lowest gear is 20-34, with highest 42-11

[@chrisko6439]

Had a 1x on a fitnessbike 42 at the front and 11-32 at the back. Which was too hard on steep climbs for my fitness level. But installing a 36T ring was out of the question, way too slow when going downhill, esp. on tarmac. For a 38T ring, only available in the XTR version, they are asking 200 quid, lol. Fortunately, I was able to install a 2nd chainring (32T) which I use without front derailleur, because I cannot install one, because of the shape of my seattube. So I have two 1x. I can "shift" down, using my foot, but shifting onto the big ring has to be done by hand. Anyway, it is still better than spinning out on the downhill or pushing the bike up the hill. 1x sucks ass if you like to ride steep stuff AND tarmac with the same bike.

[@pascalbruyere7108]

Same here. Wider range. Lower uphill and longer for road. Buddies on 1x12 can’t keep up when steep or flat or slightly down.

[@joules531]

I own several bikes with a 3x7 set-up, and for me the biggest advantage is cost. A 7 speed chain costs a quarter of the price of an 11 speed chain, and lasts 10,000 miles instead of 2,000 miles. In other words, the 11 speed bike chain costs 20 times more per mile. It's a similar situation with rings and cassettes - 1x systems cost much more per mile. Which is probably why the bike industry loves 1x systems, because they can sell more expensive parts, far more frequently. For the bike industry, 1x systems are the goose that lays the golden egg.

[@buffalomind6838]

Oh damn! I hadn’t thought of that reality. I figured the insane out of alignment the chain had to go through when we’ve been told that 3 gear changes are what you want to have before dropping up or down dramatically, so again you are not crunching/losing efficiency. The 3by is even more attractive that I had previously thought despite the seemingly more work one needs to do, or take care of in cleaning. However is it really when a 1by requires much more maintenance, and the maintenance is pricier on top of it. 🙍🏼‍♂

[@joules531]

@@buffalomind6838 I agree that some riders find 2x or 3x confusing, or requiring "extra work", but here is the way I use a 3x. I use the middle ring as a 1x, but when I get to the smallest sprocket on the cassette, I know I can flick the lever and have an extra bonus gear available. And when I get to the largest sprocket, I know that I can switch to the inner ring for a bonus extra low ration. In other words, my 3x7 gives me 9 gears. Which, given that I also have some bikes that are single speed, and some that have 3 speed hub gears, are more than enough gears for me. Using a 3x system in this way makes perfect sense, and completely avoids any confusion.

[@buffalomind6838]

@@joules531 That’s ingenious, but isn’t there a clicking sound, and straining going on from the front derailleur? If not then you’ve just given those of us with a 3by, or who hadn’t thought of that possibility being viable a reason to choose a 3by as you do get a lot more gears if ever necessary and if you are riding enough they can present themselves.

[@joules531]

@@buffalomind6838 The front derailler is ok, because you're only using the outer ring when the chain is on the smallest sprocket, and only on the small ring when the chain is on the largest sprocket. You just need to set the adjustment screws on the front derailler to ensure perfect alignment when you move the lever to change either to the large chainring, or the small chainring. Once set, you know that moving the lever, either up or down, will mean that the front derailler is perfectly aligned. It works absolutely perfectly and, for those riding a 1x, who get to the smallest sprocket and wish they had one more high gear, or are climbing a steep hill and wish they had one more lower gear, it works amazingly well.

[@buffalomind6838]

@@joules531 I’ll give that a go next time I ride my 3by. It will be a little while from now as I have to fix the flat I got a while back, and I’ve been riding my fat tire ebike for a while, so got in a way a little lazy.😆

[@stant1658]

I agree with this. When I bought a cyclocross bike about 15 years ago I replaced the 2x10 with a 3x10. It makes the bike much more versatile, from fast road riding to loaded touring to trail riding. I'm now 72 and need those lower gears.

[@SteelR4t]

I have a 20 year old GT Avalanche that I've modified for bike packing. Original 42, 32, 22 up front, with a newer 11-46 9 speed on the back. The sheer versatility of that machine is insane. Realistically, I can use four of the gears on the cassette on each front ring to keep the chain line sensible, but regardless of kit I'm lugging or terrain, I'll always have a suitable gear to use.

[@creativechimp03]

My teenage years bike over 20 years ago! Ahhh memories, love the Avalanche. White or Green paint work?

[@SteelR4t]

@@creativechimp03 Mine was a black one originally. It's been resprayed candy red metallic.

[@creativechimp03]

@@SteelR4t classic! Love it. Enjoy. I need to build myself a bikepacking setup. Any excuse for another bike…

[@david94549]

Love my old 3x9, can climb steep hills and trails even with camping gear on the pannier rack, and race down hills at ridiculous speeds, all on the same bike. My 1x usually gets caught out on steeper climbs and runs out quickly downhill, just doesn't have the range I've been accustomed to and is no where near as reliable

[@luminousfractal420]

1x should be way more reliable. but yup the range limiting is horrible. modern extended range doesnt give you what you need to use it alongside a smaller chainring. spinning kills stability.

[@sdqsdq6274]

1 x can match to 3 x9 , issue is the damn $$, lol

[@coreygolphenee9633]

@@luminousfractal420 it depends on the riding if your in chunky terrain absolutely but for 100s of miles the 1x will need serviced first

[@ulungrinjanidharma8609]

Yea! I also loving 3x so much!

[@R_o_b_e_r_t]

@@luminousfractal420 how is it reliable if the chain is bent much more than on the 3x9??

[@richarde1355]

Perhaps I missed it in the video, but for me one of the best features of a 2x or 3x system is cadence. The rear cassette, with its smaller steps between gears, allows me to maintain a certain rhythm and cadence even when I cycle through the gears. I don’t have as extreme steps between gears as with a 1x. The 2x and 3x offer a wider range of gearing, as well. Funny how mass marketing has new buyers believing 1x is the way to go - you avoid dropped chains, etc. Most folks I see out on the trails are over-biked - and I'm one of those folks - and a bike with a front derailleur might be a better choice for them. Many people ride pretty mild trails and gravel or fire roads, and a 2X or 3X bike would be great for them. Extra weight? The 1X requires a heavier cassette to even close to the gear range offered by a 2X or 3X system. Yep, going 1X - no front derailleur, only one front chainring, and no shifter, but we're maybe talking a pound. I have a Cannondale Flash 3, with a 2x10 system, and the bike, stock, weighs just over 26 pounds. With no efforts at reducing its weight. That's light enough for me. To me, the advantages of the 1x is simplicity and freeing up valuable real estate on the handlebar to mount extra goodies, like a dropper post lever. For me, particularly on my cross country bike, cadence is king, so I prefer a 2x or 3x drivetrain. My 62 year old legs prefers that 2X system, as well.

[@InventorZahran]

To compare a 1x12 drivetrain to a 2x10, the two largest cogs on the 1x probably weight about as much as the second chainring on the 2x. A front derailer and shifter doesn't add very much weight, so the "1x is so much lighter" argument quickly falls apart. 1x systems make sense for highly technical riding where reliability and resistance to chain-dropping are most important, but for most casual riders, a 2x (or 3x) drivetrain is better.

[@bindingcurve]

Look at your gears for real. My 2x11 really has about 14 "effective". I like 2x11 and have 3x9 on my old school MB (XT so not "cheep"). 1x has it's place even with more casual riding.

[@vincentlivoti4184]

I still ride my old school American Made HT Cannondale M600 with a Rock Shock and 3 chainrings. I had upgraded all components to mostly Shimano XT. The bike is 26 or 27 lbs. Not bad for an early '90s mountain bike.

[@bindingcurve]

@@vincentlivoti4184 I have a Cannondale f500 rocking a perfectly working headshok fork.

[@BenJamin-ou7kd]

No

[@ratonlaveur911]

Another advantage is that on older 26" wheel MTB the smaller cassette means a smaller derailleur so it sits higher over the ground and it's therefore safer from rocks

[@nategibson7330]

interesting that shimano still makes a shorter cage, I use one in my 10-45 instead of the 10-51, and it sits a little higher for more clearance.

[@martymcfly8314]

Exactly

[@CoderShare]

A 26" wheel will have the axle closer to the ground anyway. 3in comparison is a big difference in clearance when compared to a modern 29er.

[@nategibson7330]

@@CoderShare not to mention we use wider tires now that have more height/profile

[@stug45]

For 2x and 3x the mech cage isn't any different in length

[@deusexaethera]

Nice to finally see someone with some sense. For the past decade I've gotten the best of both worlds by running a 2x10 drive train with an extra wide range between the two chainrings. I use a 42-tooth big ring, which functions as a 1x drive train most of the time, and a 26-tooth small ring (yes, the front derailleur can handle that gap) that lets me downshift-dump into granny gear with a single click. I can climb any hill that my tires can maintain traction on, even if I'm taken by surprise.

[@mto7429]

My I ask what range your cassette In the back has?

[@sergiosegura4655]

Which front derailleur are you using?

[@jayb.6685]

I remember racing on a 3x7. On sharp turns, or when a sudden stop is needed, we drop from the big ring to the middle ring, for a faster acceleration. Same thing with with traffic lights, just shifting the FD down makes it a whole lighter to start again.

[@Yoda-em5mt]

Yep right on one thing thats never mentioned is mtb ers these days walk up most hills mtb trails dont have steep climbs the trails are made to suit 1 x setups same as rear tyres are not made for driving up steep climbs just braking i kind think i,m the only real mountain biker in my country that enjoys the challenge of riding up tech as much as down , the wider chain on the old 7 spd was the best and who's the moron that said lets make chain rings out of alloy and make them thinner wtf sure there's lots of good new mtb tech but man there is alot of really dumb shit in the market .

[@greenmancroc7914]

Yoooo saaame shifting to lower gear when at stoplights then shifting to higher gears after gaining speed feels like driving a car or motorcyle 🤣 I like that about 3x that I didn't change until now.

[@Gumpa2]

Dropping down to a way lower gear by shifting the front gear is one of the main reasons for me to like my 3x9. Its very convenient. Also having the casette gears being closer together in numbers makes less big steps between the gears which is quite comfortable at longer tours.

[@ФаридТагиров-м3о]

I have a bafang middrive. And thinking how to automatically drop gear on brake. And I dont like to use so many rear chainrings. So does it make sence to set front chainring shifter back? Ideally it would be great if it could automatically lower front ring on brake

[@trulsdirio]

For me the 2x is perfect. Gives me all the range I could ever want, enables me to use less expensive cassettes and derailleurs and is still easy to operate and not too heavy.

[@docmccoy9813]

Totally agree. I find 1x one of the most dumb trends the industry has created. Good for them.

[@docmccoy9813]

@@jt3366 I haven't felt the need to use it and also is quite heavy/expensive. But, regarding the levers, I have the feeling that manufacturers just create them to gain money. The blocking of the front suspension used to be done by hand, and it was super easy. Just 15 cm separates your hand from the top of the fork. But, hey, here comes the super-easy lever that just occupies the space left by the front derailleur. The same about the rear shock. Shimano and Co could easily integrate a front and rear derailler lever in one piece.

[@sirmyself]

I'm coming from a 3x 7speeds. In its years of use, I realized I almost never used the smallest gear on the front drive, so when I looked to buy a new bike, I knew I wasn't going to miss the 3x drive. But the more I thought about it and the more I though it was a good idea to at least have two. Not only am I used to dial my cadence according to what I need to do (Flat terrain, or climbing up tracks). And I did think about the downshift to climb up an unexpected hill, which happens quite often when you explore new tracks. Those are the reasons I went with a 2x8 speeds bike. Plus... I did the math and I actually have a wider gear ratio range. The bike comes with a cassette and a front drive with a teeth count that both makes the bike faster on the fastest gears, and slower on the slowest gears compared to my old one. All in all. I can't wait for the snow to melt so I can go ride it.

[@MikeDCWeld]

I rode a 3×7 for years and pretty much always left it in the highest gear on both the front and rear, no matter the terrain. It just worked for me. After a certain point, I literally could not ride at all in the lowest front gear. The wheels just could not keep up and I'd just spin the pedals until I lost my balance and had to put a foot down. I'd happily go with a 1× as long as it was the right 1×.

[@Green__one]

​@@MikeDCWeldThis is exactly it. The lowest gears on mountain bikes are insanely low, I can't ride in any of them. But I've never met a mountain bike or didn't wish I had a couple gears higher than the top. So I have no problem with a one by drive train, but I need higher gears not lower

[@janukachandrasena5915]

I personally love my 3 by 8!! I use my bike both for riding around town and on trails, and I love the range that the 3bys offer. Plus I really don't mind shifting more.

[@randyandjody]

+1 for 3x

[@lukegregoryCOHBL]

Same, think I'd struggle without being able to drop right down on some of the hills I go up 😂

[@oldmanbanksia]

Congratulations for being brave enough to acknowledge that the 3X drivetrain can still do a good job. I'm sure you will cop a lot of flak for daring to speak up and making such valid points. You have taken a very balanced view which unfortunately is lacking in so many videos out there that claim everything that's not "the newest & best" must be crap. I still often choose my old 2012 Giant X1 26er (dual suspension) with 3X up front for the really tight mountainous single tracks - lots of fun, climbs well, really nimble. No complaints.

[@stasionisas]

Never before I had heard so many good considerations about three frontal gears! I agree completely with all them. About more possibilities of relations between cogs, about more durability on front gears, less use of them, better alignment of chain, less annoying noises... Perfect and wise words! Thanks!

[@jfrtbikgkdhjbeep9974]

high gear range, large chainring up front on a 2 x 8 system,, ... large/medium up front .. my 2 x 7 system uses the medium/small chainrings up front , good for short term riding .. gets tiring on longer runs ---- distances

[@RyanAggabao]

Honestly I love my 3x MTB for the big chainring that lets me go fast on-roads, as opposed to full-time gunning a small chainring off road and on roads

[@SlowDelSol]

I think a lot of the hate comes from the fact that a lot of bikes aren’t tuned perfectly and the issues are more noticeable with two derailleurs. Tuned right and used right, 3x is great.

[@luminousfractal420]

thats true. loved my gary fisher back in the day (20lbs and 160/150) but the bottom bracket was skewed lol (big made in the usa sticker next to it too). absolute nightmare to run the gears smoothly. which is what led me into using chainguides.

[@borisjankovici662]

Sorry, but nobody makes a drivetrain that can be tuned 100% and manufacturers only make it worse by cramming more completely useless gears into the cassette. Now you have a whole couple more gears you have to compensate for when tuning. Can't have both range resolution so you'll be picking your favorite gears anyway. At least with 3X drivetrain, when (not if, when) your rear derailleur/chain/cassette decide they don't like the...I don't know, barometric pressure and won't shift into some gears reliably, you can switch to a different chainring and utilize different gears in the back.

[@saintless]

Tuning AND compatibility.. you can get away with a mountain double FD with a road shifter and vice versa... not perfect and doesn't always work but for the most part you can dial in the limit screws and force it to shift acceptably. Mix and match a road vs mtb FD for a triple and that's no longer true, never mind triple cages are designed for specific tooth differences so use the wrong gear combo when buying a new crank and it stops working. The move away from friction to front indexing is a huge part of the problem people have with triples, and it has nothing to do with triples really.

[@dannyvanderheide6098]

I still run a hardtail with 3x front set. I love it, climbing can be so easy when shifting all the way down. I even went up some slopes that a dude with a full suspension EMTB had to walk up, which was just to get to the downhill section.

[@nickolasgaspar9660]

My friend got a 1x11 and he became an "observer" of his own rides...lol

[@A_Box]

@@nickolasgaspar9660 Not sure what you mean. Did he observed other people ride their bikes or did he observe other people ride his bike?

[@esthetics4512]

I run 3×8 about to convert to 3×10

[@PRH123]

@@esthetics4512 maybe think twice about that, 8 speed cassettes and chains are half the price of 9- or 10- speed.

[@drwang699]

cap

[@eugene44569]

Seth's daughter: hey dad what's the difference between 1*1 and 1/1? Seth: a little different but kind of the same

[@janekpurcha7706]

Hi Eugene

[@eugene44569]

@@janekpurcha7706 i will give you mod

[@haiderdepunk7065]

I like beluga

[@janekpurcha7706]

@@eugene44569 yessss

[@DeeTofa]

I'm Girl

[@onesadtech]

My bike was converted from 3x8 to 2x8 with a thick bash guard in place of the largest chainring. Gotta say I love that setup, plenty of gear to get up to 45kmh or so on flats, no ninja star, super durable. 👌 I usually cruise trails in 2x3 for 6th gear, and can drop instantly to 3rd for climbs.

[@jayf2487]

I’m so glad he talked about this because everyone just goes with the next new thing and just says it’s better.

[@docmccoy9813]

Yes, but then why he is using a 1x?

[@borisjankovici662]

Exactly. Bicycles are the absolute worst for fads, gimmicks, and making changes for the sake of changes. And everyone just goes right along with it. Manufacturers need to spend more time making reliable, durable drivetrains (which NOBODY does) rather than arbitrarily removing chainrings while cramming completely useless 10,12, or13th gears on the cassette. Every other industry understands the tradeoff between range and resolution...except bike manufactures. You simply can not have them both. I finally put a 1X setup on a new bike I was building last year just to see what it was all about. Had to buy new cranks/BB anyway. I have never had so much trouble with a drivetrain before. Countless dropped chains, many broken chain rings and chain guides. Not to mention manufacturers (cough Shimano cough) lying about the offsets of their cranksets claiming they aren't boost when you have to use a ridiculous amount of spacers to get the right chain line. It is nothing but a headache. There are absolutely no performance benefits. I'm certainly not faster having wasted most of the season making the dumb thing work.

[@nickolasgaspar9660]

@@docmccoy9813 because he rides on trails. Not all guys roll their bikes in trails. Most of us actually go for a ride with our bikes.

[@Sterlthepearl6960]

Not this guy! I will never get rid of my 2x

[@lenieramos1064]

1 bay is more easy to tune than 3 bay

[@unkebunktebusal9023]

The biggest advantage of a 3x drivetrain is missing: With the same range, you have smaller gear jumps. This is quite important if you also ride longer distances on flat roads and the cadence should fit. It is annoying when I can not find a suitable gear because the gaps are too large.

[@Anon.G]

I have a 3 by and basically only use 3 and 6-10 on the cassette(10 being the highest) I think bigger jumps would be way more usable than only using 5 gears

[@woodywoodverchecker]

I agree. Also, if you climb an actual mountain, having the perfect gear is quite important.

[@benhudson2748]

This, esp for road/gravel rides. My bikepacking rig has this for long climbs.

[@samhenderson7528]

If you are worried about your cadence, you are not having a fun time mountain biking. Save cadence for the roadie days

[@grumpynerd]

The significance of close gear spacing depends on the kind of riding you do. On the trails I ride the perfect gear to be in changes from moment to moment. I ride on 1x because it's simpler to pick and approximately right gear and pick up the slack with my legs. But I continue to use 2x10 on my gravel bike and would even consider a 3x for something like loaded road touring. That's because on any kind of engineered road you can pick just the right gear and stick with it for a while. I'd like to see more beginner bikes with 1x drivetrains -- even a 1x9 would do. Managing two derailleurs is surprisingly daunting for beginners and most of them end up cross chained a lot of the time. Most beginners aren't trying to go as fast as possible, so they don't need closely spaced gears, they mainly need low gears. A 1x with a smallish chainring up front would do the trick for them.

[@davekendall1338]

I've got a 3x on my XC bike, and I love it. It shifts really well and gives a massive range. I can crawl up hills.

[@chrisakaschulbus4903]

I learned 3x9 and i don't feel like i'm missing out on anything. I can get up to good speeds and climb hills like it's nothing. I'm pretty sure my next bike will have the same (or a similar 3x system) because i just love the mechanism.

[@reinartthefox1651]

Good luck finding a decent new 2x let alone 3x. Bikebrands just don´t offer them anymore.

[@chrisakaschulbus4903]

@@reinartthefox1651 Don't know what exactly you mean by bike brands. Bought a new bike recently, KTM and shimano are the "brands". 3x9 and all the original parts are in stock and can be restocked.

[@reinartthefox1651]

Yes they still offer it on budget bikes with Altus or Tourney..

[@chrisakaschulbus4903]

@enriqueamaya3883It's more like infected tissue that you scrape out from your skin...

[@msky9482]

i love the ease of dropping to a smaller chain in the front

[@Adam-xo7cv]

One to two clicks instead of 9 clicks...

[@jbsulliv]

So…this is Seth justifying why it’s okay to leave the three-bys on his next flips! He could have just said it isn’t worth swapping out the drive-train on an old, yet still reliable bike! 😆 Parts bin must be running low on one-by drive train parts. I have been questioning the one-by conversions on those recent flips.

[@Zarrx]

I'm not sure I'm ready to put that tin foil hat on per se, his diamond back 3by seems pretty high end compared to a stamped (especially front derailleur quality) set so it will depend on the bike. He's probably been reflecting on it since keeping the vintage diamond back be using it in town and light trail use.

[@martymcfly8314]

Good. Keep the 3x.

[@3mtech]

Just keeping you prepared for 5 years from now when 3X is greatest thing ever

[@alkaholic4848]

You missed a couple: 1/ The wider range of gears. Particularly at the high/fast end. If your mountain biking consists entirely of climbing steep hills (only low gears required) and flying down fast downhills (no pedalling required at all) then you wouldn't appreciate this. But if you also do occasional flattish easy trails, and prefer a low cadence, one ring designs just aren't anywhere near big enough, even with the smallest number of teeth at the back, you're still pedalling way faster than you need to. This is where the marketing of more gears is actually kind of relevant, yes there are some you can't use, but the range between your highest gear and lowest gear is broader. 2/ Those really small gears on the back, all the stress is distributed over a small number of teeth, so they tend to skip and damage really easily. By having a bigger gear at the front, the ones at the back don't need so few teeth so don't skip under hard pedalling, and don't damage / wear out so easily (especially if you pedal hard in higher gears a lot).

[@Ferrari255GTO]

Well, your second advantage ignores one of the big advantages: you can drop your ratio quickly by changing to the next dish, but to have this advantage you are ignoring the gears and shifter at the back in order to get it, plus many times its not that smart of an idea to use both the big dish and a big gear, because you might have a chain too long to have both of the smallest, or a chain too short for both of the largest. What absolutely kills them for me is that the deraileur often bends easily and then it's over, the chain goes wild and there is no guarantee that it will behave properly, with the chain poping off at every chance (wich has happened to me on the street without doing anything crazy and with a well taken care of deraileur when i had a supermarket bike)

[@desgamble9220]

I have to admit that I used to extol the virtues of a 3x set up with its huge range of road and mtb gear ratios. However, having taken up mountain biking more seriously the wide ratio 1x10/12 speed is so much simpler to use. I’ve never had a 3x set up that changes down effortlessly under load which puts it at a great disadvantage for sudden climbs. This makes it needlessly complex system to use. I’ve recently purchased an entry level gravel bike with a wide ratio 1x10 set up. I love it.

[@K3NnY_G]

Ohhh, here we go.... (Nah, I'm sure some people will be up-in-arms on this though.) Honestly I ran 3x until about last season. They really do have their place; really depends on the riding you do; and how you use your gears. On the trail though; I don't think 90% of riders have the actual mechanical sympathy to actually utilize them effectively.

[@janukachandrasena5915]

It really depends on on what you ride lol, I personally still run my 3 by 8 because I still love riding fast down roads along with riding with trails!

[@porterdallenbach1639]

Yeah my MTB tops out at about 15 mph with 1x11

[@stanislavhorvat5157]

@@porterdallenbach1639 put larger front chainring. I use 36t, and its fast on the road, 11-46t cassette

[@scottmanser9208]

@@stanislavhorvat5157 true, but then you sacrifice that granny gear.

[@Deckzwabber]

I think if you start mountain biking at a later age, a 1x will really make it easier to get the most out of your gears and have the most fun.

[@ajsaracina8380]

My xc bike is still a 2x and I wouldn't give that up. My trail bike is 1x though, and it's fine-ish. But the range and versatility of 2x is fantastic.

[@martymcfly8314]

Shimano 2x > SRAM 1x.

[@grndragon2443]

Still rocking my 3X setup on my mountain bike. 22-36-50 with a 9 speed cassette 11-48. Best setup I've ever ridden.

[@bingbongmcgee]

This is why I want a 2 x drivetrain, best of both worlds! I have a 3 x but Id like to not have to actively think about gearing as much

[@BTBRVReviews]

This is kind of making the case for wearing a Pocket/Protector organizer from a practicality perspective. Oh, was 3:39 a pause for thought?

[@compasteedee]

Not even slightly man. I have 1x drivetrains on my main mountain bikes, but their are definitely benefits to a 3x or 2x drivetrain. Straight chainlines, shifting down rather than up on climbs, more rugged chains ( if you were around for the change from 8 to 9 speeds this is clear, I don't know anyone who didn't regularly break chains in that transition, the same went for the transition from 10 to 11 and 11 to 12 speeds to a lesser degree) are all very legitimate advantages.

[@BTBRVReviews]

@@compasteedee brother, I have been biking for over 37 years. I've gone through every drivetrain that's existed and replaced or modified them all at time point. My most recent replacement was 7 years ago on a Trek XCaliber8 from a X7 2x to a XT 1x10 (which actually came as a 2x10 setup).

[@compasteedee]

I get you, I've been through every single transition too, I rode professionally in the late 90's and 3x was all we rode. I remember thinking suspension was a fad, that disc brakes would never get better than Hayes 9's, that Scandium would be the future over carbon fiber, and that tension disc wheels were the end-all of wheel tech. So I've been wrong plenty, but there are some things that sometime "archaic" bike tech has genuine advantages at, no harm recognizing it. Am I going to change my 1x to 3x? Nope, but I still keep a 3x Kona XC bike in my quiver for city, path and light trail riding particularly with my family, and it is simply better for that application, no harm in admitting it.

[@planetafuria7944]

With 2 or 3 gears on front, we have a lot of range for speeding or climbing. That is useful to ride the same bike under different conditions.

[@chuckflangemaster1325]

Triple chainring cranks really do help on extreme climbs if you're on the heavier side. I just completed an experiment using trip as to a local hill and the ascent was happier and easier on my Raleigh Max (modified) than my venerable kona cooler. The descent was more fun too but I love the old school. Nothing made me grin like seeing an old Saracen or GT on the repair schedule with a full strip down. Love the channel, thanks to all who make it happen.

[@Javiercav]

I think that 2x drivetrains are a good mix. I have deore 2x10 on my MTB and even if I use 90% of the time the bigger chainring. Sometimes I need to drop to the smaller one and it’s nice to have it available.

[@reboundrides8132]

I’m not sure about that “chain retention” point though. My chain was constantly falling off my 3x setup and has never fallen off my 1x

[@harcormor]

I can say the same!!! Trek Marlin 5 with 3x7 and day one dropped the chain and scratches up my brand new bike. Found myself only really using the middle chainring so I switched to a 1x crankset and haven’t dropped the chain even once. Now to get a wider range in the back….if only there were a decent supply of parts 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@johnstoddart9026]

I think it's more that it doesn't drop off the bike fully and is held in place by the from derailleur

[@MrFitness94]

You can just shift the opposite way of the chain drop on the go though. Puts the chain back on for you

[@harcormor]

@@MrFitness94 nope…I’ve had it fall both directions(to the inside onto the bottom bracket, and to the outside over the biggest ring out onto the crank arm) and I had to stop and put the chain back on. I am fully against 3x systems at this point.

[@Harey0407]

If the chain has fallen off of my 3x setup it's been a long time since its done that, since I've had that bike for a long time.

[@onebackzach]

I'd also add that the lower number of gears on the cassette of a 3x make it much easier to get the rear derailleur shifting properly. With a 12 speed, a little bump to the derailleur can throw things completely out of whack, whereas with an 8 speed, you have a lot more room for error.

[@stug45]

2x and 3x 11 exists and you gain even more range!

[@stug45]

@Stephen Cho a modern 2x11 system shifts exactly the same as a 1x11 system? the clutch keeps the chain on and the increased gear range means you go faster.

[@tomrodriguez9052]

I use a 3x10 and love it. It's on a CX bike that acts as a road or gravel bike for me. Living in the mountains I love having the "granny gear" but also the ability to go fast down hill or when riding the flat lands. I've been riding it for 10 years now with zero drive train issues. I haven't really noticed the extra weight being an issue, I guess I'm used to it by now, it's a respectable 21 lbs .

[@randomvideosn0where]

I always find it funny when on the trails people are obsessed with each gram on their bike, but often could use to lose several pounds themselves. I also have a 3x but almost never get into top gear because that would be over 30 miles per hour at normal pedaling speeds!

[@gustering]

Nice! I love the comment about the easy reduction in climbing for the 3x, I always noticed that, but a few people realize it I think. Another point that its an advantage with a 3x transmission, is the fact that you can make the same gear ratio using larger cogs, in the front and the rear, so you have more tooths to spread the pressure/tension of the chain, and therefore it lasts longer also. With the 1x, if you are at cruising speed, you'll always need to use the very small cogs on the rear, and all the pressure will be made in just 10 or 11 theeths. On the other hand, with the 3x, you can maintain the same cruising speed with a 18/20 cog on the rear, and also a larger one in the front. The only benefit of 1x is performance, and thats for sure, IMHO.

[@jiw71]

for me 1x11with a 10-46 cassette & 32t chain ring is the ideal drive train. On 1x12's the rear derailleur is way too long and flimsy thus bending the hanger. Also, dumping gears in a hurry is so much quicker with my grip shifter (Sram drivetrain). 3x drive trains are good only when the front derailleur is tuned properly.

[@liamdayetti]

When I was living in Indonesia I saw a lot of 2x11 bikes. They had a main gear used most of the time, and a smaller gear for climbing steep slopes. Something they had a lot off! What I was told is that people preferred a second gear up front so they can just drop into a lower gear to climb a hill then jump back up into normal riding

[@JediAndrey]

Seth raises several very interesting points. I love these educational videos

[@alishams4496]

i really love my bicycle's 2x drivetrain, dropping to the smaller chain ring is so fast and easy and it works like a charm. 2x also allows me to go faster compared to a 1x when needed which i really appreciate

[@reubenneate3492]

What about the effects of chainring size on the use of the rear suspension? 1x: results in less anti squat in bigger gears meaning more pedal bob in your climbing gears. Then in your descending gears your suspension will be restricted with more antisquat. 3x: will mean changing the front climbing gears will result in more antisquat while climbing resulting in less pedal bob while climbing. The the bigger descending gears upfront means freeer moving suspension while descending

[@leftaroundabout]

Pedal bob isn't really an issue at all in modern full-sus bikes with properly set up suspension. (As long as you stay in the saddle - standing up, _any_ suspension will bob, no anti-squat can prevent that.) And the lack of a front derailleur has given manufacturers quite a bit more design freedom to make the rear suspension work well and reliable. I love 2× on my hardtail for all the reasons mentioned in the video, but on my enduro bike I wouldn't want a front derailleur. No use for the higher top gears (downhill tyres eat up too much power in the flat to go so fast), the narrow-wide chainring does offer better chain retention than a front derailleur, and on the typical fire road ascend there's not really a need for quick downshifting or narrow gaps between the gears. A lighter cassette would probably be good for rear suspension performance (unsprung mass), but again, the rear suspension actually works very well even with the big 12-gear 10-50 cassette.

[@thenextgen175]

Seth’s video title: Why the front derailleur is better for MTB Also Seth: Never rides with a front derailleur

[@cyremixofficial]

are u blind? for the whole vid he's riding a bike with a 3 by

[@takumifujiwara3223]

@@cyremixofficial find an mtb(his) which has 3x

[@takumifujiwara3223]

@@cyremixofficial and the bike that he drives right now was an mtb 30 years ago, and that same bike is considered as a hybrid today

[@johnnyboy3357]

With more than one chainring, you improve the Q line of the chain thereby reducing angular displacement between front and rear sprockets that causes power losses for optimum power transfer, if people know this, its the end of the 1x unless people want to torture themselves using 1x, but me, i use 2x only without a front derailleur

[@G_L918]

@@takumifujiwara3223 what are you doing in the MTB community, you've supposed to race people on Touge, wtf Takumi

[@scottsmith2052]

The 3x drivetrain takes greater skill to use to advantage. Mentally numbering the gears on my 3x6 helps me: 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36. This also happens to roughly correspond to how many miles or km/hour I can do in each gear. I would suggest keeping the 3x on the road bike and the 1x on your mountain bike where the priority is simply grabbing higher/lower gears without thinking about it. I think 3x came from an era of belt driven machine rooms (like many modern drill presses). There is nothing magical about either one on a bike.

[@BrandonMeyer1641]

I’ve been riding 3x all my life. I like having the options. Middle ring and middle of cassette for flats and small climbs, big ring and small cogs on the cassette for downhill and going fast on flats, small ring and end of cassette for climbs for little effort with low gears equivalent to the best 1x systems. It covers everything. They are super cheap and durable, and parts are super cheap. Front Derailer really does act as a Chen retention mechanism. If it pops off the ring you’re on you just push the shifter up a bit and pedal and it pops right back on. I like Shimano 9 and 8 speed alivio. Super great value for 3x. Great value. Super durable, super cheap. I’ve been thinking about going to a gravel bike with 2x but 3x will still hold a soft spot in my heart. I remember I got to the top of climb and this old dude on a fancy road bike said, “ your made it up here on that pos” and I said, “yeah, and I’m about to go further than you”. I will say however that parts for 3x are getting less common. My cassette wore out recently and I called around local shops to see if they had it in stock and nobody carried anything less than 10 speed. I had to order online and do it myself with some tools from my universities bike stations. The cassette was still cheap online and I didn’t have to pay anything to get installed because I did it myself. Really my biggest complaint with 3x is the Shimano octalink bb which has eventually started to creek like crazy under a lot of power after a couple of years, otherwise they are great.

[@robivlahov]

where i live fortunately everyone has 9 speed shimano stuff still so thats great. but now we can upgrade the 3x with a shimano zee long cage with a goat link and a 51-11 9speed cassette from sunrace.or a m9 sunrace . cheaper then the zee, but abit more noise.

[@baddriversofcolga]

I like the simplicity of a 1x drivetrain, though I never really had the issues with a 3x that many people seem to have had.

[@gabiold]

My front deraileur constantly needed tweaking. It wasn't a high-end one, but it was so annoying that even if I maintained everything properly, sometimes it didn't shifted right when I needed the most. I now use 1x just because I had to replace the monoblock and I found that 1x system for cheap, but I miss the high range and fastest change to low somewhat. I won't put it back though, because reliability and easier maintenance always wins for me, and the old 44:11 ratio was mostly useful on roads or flat terrain, which isn't that much fun for me anyways.

[@johndef5075]

Im assuming that's Columbus, Ohio because we have some 💩 drivers....

[@richarde1355]

Bad Drivers of Columbus, Georgia wrote ""...though I never really had the issues with a 3x that many people seem to have had." I think you'll find that most of the people that claim problems with a 3x system never had a quality 3x system or 3x system at all. The current (new) generation of bikers have been sold the Kool Aid that 2x or 3x systems drop chains, and those bikers have never owned or ridden one.

[@tushermyth]

I was really wanting someone explains this reality on KZbin and you did. I use a 3by on my XC bike and the quick dropping is so helpful on a new trail when I don't know when a steep part is coming. Thanks! Cheers!

[@kanecitizen]

My Trek 4900 is rocking a 3x10 setup and I utilize the speed and climbing ability my 3x setup provides since I mostly ride light cross country I end up biking on roads most of the time and the speed it gives me is certainly handy.

[@Cake_Doge]

I have 7 year old 3x9 Trek XCaliber and as I got into bikes and everything that comes with them I have learnet about 1x drivetrains. They all look super cool and pro to me with possible ease of use and maintanence with the simplicity. Few times I have considered converting my bike into a 1x but 3x comes in handy a lot. When on the trails I use the 2nd gear normally and if things get steep, I switch to easy mode with the 1st gear instantly, when riding on roads or in the streets 2nd gear is really useful, it is both comfortable to pedal and gives enough speed to keep up with the cars in slower traffic. When there are no cars I just switch to 3rd go fast. But tbh I only consider using the full range at the rear when I am at the 2nd gear, I don't tend to go close to 9th when I am at the 1st in front, or closer to 1st when I am on 3rd. 3x really helps me since I drive all types of terrain but if I was getting a new bike I would have gone for a 1x for tackling the trails. It is a confusing debate, I forgot what to write while writing this comment.

[@thomasholland6334]

Hi Seth, thorough analysis, I would like to add one more thing. The reason I still use a 3x9 set up is due to smaller gear steps. I'm a retired road racer and still have a very good spin and change gears with changing terrain constantly in order to maintain the ideal cadence and resistance at all times. I find the steps between gears to be less with a 3x9 drivetrain than a 1x10. The 1x10 ten jumps are to big so I'm left feeling like I'm over spinning or bogged down. 3x9 to the rescue. I have my circus gear for climbing, a big gear for bombing big road hills and my smaller gear steps for ideal cadence. Be well.

[@scottlynch5804]

I guess I'm in the curmudgeon category. Earlier this year, I built up a brand new Surly Bridge Club and purposely did a 3x9, friction shifter setup. I wanted reliability and simplicity. And I remember thinking, "Well, that's the way I built my bikes 25 years ago. It's still good for today." Ha! Great video!

[@minoandshadow.mmd.furry.cuties]

so true, its how i build my bikes now. My Ibis Mojo carbon has a 3x9 setup on it, just because it works and i dont have to worry about it, just get out and ride.

[@marcussoininen2084]

I run 3x9, 3x10, 2x10 and 1x12 and love them all for various reasons. 3x10 on the touring rig with barend shifters is my favorite but they're all good at different things 🙂

[@tar170]

3x8 seems perfect for durability, chainline angle, and price. I never had interest in 9-speed "upgrades" because the required narrower chains were more expensive than the good old 5, 6, 7, and 8 speed chains.

[@paths2go]

same here

[@bindingcurve]

@@paths2go My 9 speed Deore chain cost $15

[@murphykenji]

Yup. 1998 was the pinnacle.

[@spencertaggart536]

The best thing is waking up and there being a brand new Seth video

[@samhenderson7528]

It used to be… this vid is horrible

[@crispymtb5741]

@@samhenderson7528 why do you find it horrible?

[@dirt_riders_2505]

Yeh your right his vids used to be good now there shit

[@brockarmstrong3646]

@@dirt_riders_2505 these videos aren't as good but I still enjoy them

[@samhenderson7528]

@@crispymtb5741 because he is saying a 3x is good on a Mountain Bike… on a road bike sure, but on a mountain bike they are pointless

[@dotexey]

Newer rider here. I didn't realize dropping a ring would make getting more power under load easier, since the chain is going to a smaller gear. Looking forward to trying to implement this more into sudden steep climbs. I was eager to switch from my 3x9 to a 1x12, but now I think I'll hold on for a bit.

[@Aspartame69]

I was going to convert my 3x10 to a 1x10 with a wider range cassette, but was advised i would lose out at the top and bottom of the range along with costing a lot of money. So i just committed to being more disciplined with the gears on the 3x.

[@grandpavanderhof]

@@Aspartame69 If you have a 3x10, you should be shifting using only 18 possible gear settings. On your smallest ring up front, you should only be using the six cog rings on the left side of your cassette (largest rings). In your middle ring up front, you should only be using the inner six cog rings in the cassette. And finally, when using your big ring up front, only the six rings on the right side of the cassette (smallest rings). There is some overlapping of gear ratios, but terrain, atmospherics and speed can justify using some of these crossover gears, in a slightly less than perfect chain line. Another thing that I teach cyclists who ride 2x or 3x systems, is when shifting from either front ring (big to small, small to big) use a Left-Right-Left sequence. This allows either the increase or decrease in gear ratio to be smoother and more fluid. By following this guide, you'll get much longer life out of both your chain and cassette. Cross chaining is what kills your chain over time. You should be able to get at least 5,000 miles out of a chain. But most riders, because they lack shifting discipline, get only about 1500-1800 miles.

[@Apple_Beshy]

@@grandpavanderhof so for example 3x7... if the front is on smallest- the back should be in the 6-or-7? middle 5-4-3 and largest to 2-1? and if Im gonna shift, i should do front first before the rear one ?

[@rossejera1661]

@@Apple_Beshy wut no. smallest front chain ring should be rear cogs 1-3. front 2nd should be 3-5. largest front should be 5-7.

[@marwerno]

@@grandpavanderhof On my touring bike, when I was doing a road trip (loaded with about 40Kg, but I myself was weighting only 65kg at that time (now 85 😞), I put on 10000km on the trip and still was using the gears for commuting to work for 1 or 2 years. I worked about 10km away from home and had a 6 days week. You do the math :-) But I also did practice mostly high cadence. Helps a lot in lifespan. Even so I was able to break the front pedal arm on a hill climb some 3000km down the trail...

[@dave9668]

As a guy who recently got back into mtb after a 20 year absence, this helped so much. Thank you!

[@grotto5416]

I also like having 3x front derailleur because I LOVE shifting gears on my bike. It gives me opportunity to simply do something more during my rides and have fun with the bike

[@nickfirst7249]

Lol

[@Lordash2000]

My old MTB had a 3x setup and although in many ways it was annoying having to deal with two lots of gears, one good thing was for long gentle descents such as fire roads you could stick it in "the big ring" and really get some speed up on the pedals. With my 1x only going to an 11 tooth sprocket on the back, your max speed is limited as you spin out much sooner.

[@briannyob7799]

I typically ride the North Shore and if you can spin out your 1x11 or 1x12 on those trails you should be wearing a rainbow jersey.

[@JohnDough-yr2zt]

It’s true you have no top gear at 35 mph

[@BTBRVReviews]

What about 2x higher end drivetrains? Do they still exist? Shimano XT or SRAM X7.

[@timnerenberg]

I have one on my XC Bike and I love it.

[@cdsmock4512]

Yup. My bike has a 2x9. Best of both worlds.

[@speedball23]

I have a Giant talon 4 2021 and it has a 2 by in front and a 7 in the back

[@cjmpaja]

Shimano still makes a 2x12 XTR Drivetrain The SL-M9100-IL, and SL-M9100-L are the left shifters There are 3 flavors of the FD-M9100 Front Derailleur And the FC-M9100-2, and FC-M9120-B2 are the 2x cranksets

[@Daividu]

I have an SLX/XT 2x11 on my XC Hardtail and an SLX/XT 1x12 on my Trail Fully. I found that the 1x12 really shines in gnarlier terrain where I sometimes shift a lot. But on more mellow rides I really enjoy the added range of my 2x11

[@yumbertg]

I just bought my first MTB and this video was really helpful in understanding the differences and things I would like to do to customize my bike.

[@jehilario2659]

From a broke person standpoint, I prefer a 3x8. In my experience it gives me enough options to tackle any terrain and besides upgrading to a 1x means I have to spend more money on a cassette with larger cogs, new shifter and rear derailleur.

[@surfaceenergy]

To avoid the "ninja star" leg gouging, I switch the big ring to a bash guard ring. Yes, I'm losing some ratios, but I'm usually not using that big ring anyway when mountain biking.

[@Chronostra]

My commuter "mtb" have a 3x9 (28-38-48 I believe) with a bash ring tho?

[@johnnygunz2300]

I did this back in the 90's... The big ring always got mangled by rocks. Unless there is significant road mileage involved (like touring) the big ring seems useless.

[@johndef5075]

Thats what I did. And It keeps chain from being overshifted off the middle ring.

[@PrzemyslawSliwinski]

The main drawback of a 3x is... the shrinking variety of compatible high quality parts. I have a 3x9 tandem and appreciate all the advantages the triple chainring offers, nevertheless, the "update" to a 2x11/12 combo is going to be inevitable in few years (very few, I am afraid). PS By the way, the Biopace chainrings are still looking cool!

[@stug45]

I'm running 2x11 and parts are available. Swapped from 3x9 to 1x11 and hated it so got a new front mech and it's amazing! Also using a clutch mech!

[@PrzemyslawSliwinski]

@@stug45 Yup! The RD clutch and the 48/31 crankset make me gravitate towards the GRX group.

[@stug45]

@@PrzemyslawSliwinski I run grx 2x mech with goat link and xt 11-40 and use 105 50/34 crank and mech

[@sethhoffman8149]

Same here. My wife and I ride an old KHS tandem with 3x7 drivetrain. We don't put on too many miles, so stuff lasts, but parts are getting harder to find.

[@PrzemyslawSliwinski]

@@stug45That used to be the setup I was aiming at. Now, however, the two top-tier CUES groups with an increased durability and QR & HG compatibility have become an interesting 2x11 option too.

[@flameartcom]

Your channel has really helped me take a second crack at getting into mountain biking, thank you for the content. Taking it more seriously now than I did as an airheaded teen! 😅

[@ThomasKlausen]

Another advantage of the 1X is increased ground clearance when going over large drops. That's the main reason I can't see myself going back to 2/3X

[@Mr_Eyeholes]

Same. I’ve bent the largest ninja star on a 3x more than once. The skin on my right leg is also happier with the 1x 👍

[@scratchy996]

I just bought a 2X 29er hardtail. I got it for longer rides, with some gravel and tarmac sections, you can cover more ground in the same amount of time with a 2X setup. It's impossible to find a higher trim mountain bike with a 2X nowadays, which sucks. For trail riding the 1X is a no brainer.

[@RealMTBAddict]

Really? I've ridden down Pikes Peak with my hardtail 2x with no problems.

[@MarvinWestmaas]

Wait, ground clearance doesn't matter in a drop, only when you roll it? I see this being a factor in really chunky stuff but not for a drop?

[@travistweedle9674]

But what if you had a 2X that had a 32t and a 22t chain rings. I actually have a 32t on my 1X.

[@lachieharro6372]

I love how Oscar bits Seth's foot every time Seth gos for a ride

[@topspot4834]

LOL I love Oscar! Love ALL dogs, but I like some more than others. Oscar has tons of personality. Great little trail dog!

[@christophermorin9036]

I miss my old 21 speed. You wouldn't think there was such a dramatic difference between an 18 and a 21, but there is. Shifts are smoother on the 21 with less struggle in getting up to speed between gears. I can just pedal, click, pedal, click, pedal, click etc. And this was on a Royce Union Hummer H2 bike that weighed over 35lbs lol. I crashed that bike and totaled it, but I still have its 850lb rear spring that I transfer to every new mountain bike I get. Also having a super low gear is great for when you are riding with a load such as a bicycle trailer. There's a reason big rigs have transmissions with over 11 gears lol.

[@bermchasin]

and yet here I am riding local hills on my fixie because I used to live in flatland FL.

[@Lizlodude]

As someone who primarily rides in neighborhoods (I envy your awesome forests) I find the 3by useful just to have a much wider jump available for stopping and starting and jumping through dirt or rocks and junk. It means I can quickly have cruise/start/climb available and then fine tune with the rear.

[@flamtap420]

I just got a Giant Talon 4. I was convinced it would need to be upgraded to a 1x. I'm pretty happy with the stock 2x.

[@chandlerwoody3925]

Did you get micro shift or Shimano drivetrain? I think the MS rear derailleur is much better than the tourney for mtb.

[@Drago0900]

@@chandlerwoody3925 Definitely is better than tourney. God I fucking hate tourney. Also manufacturers using different newly “discovered” brands encourages competition and maybe shimano will stop making tourney.

[@jonaslo6011]

3x are also great for people who ride their bike on and off road. Especially for beginners, they offer a low enough gear for climbing offroad hills and a redicilous high gear for bombing tarmac descends

[@johngonzalez1193]

What do you do then about chain slap? I presently have a 3x and am interested in going 1x or 2x but dont have the funds presently.

[@jonaslo6011]

@@johngonzalez1193 like seth said, it's not a problem with the front derailleur cage keeping the chain in place. If you'd want to make your bike more quiet and protect your chainstay, just put an old innertube around it and fasten it with a ziptie

[@johngonzalez1193]

@@jonaslo6011 yeah I've seen him do that in his videos. I'm new to all this and I've been binge watching and trying to figure out upgrades for my bike but i have zero understanding of bike geometry. I intend to change the fork and get a dropper post and new saddle and do something with the drivetrain. So far I've changed the stem, handle bar, grips, brake discs, calipers, and levers. It would've been perhaps smarter to get a new bike but I can't really afford that but I can afford incremental upgrades and if the situation ever changes I'll have all these parts i can use later.

[@jonaslo6011]

@@johngonzalez1193 I was in the same situation as you are. I started with my department store bike I rode since I was a teenager. Later I discovered that there was more to mountainbiking than riding gravel roads. In my experience tires make by far the biggest difference. It does not have to be the best and most expensive ones, but the cheaper ones from bigger brands also do a fine job (like the conti trailkings or michelin wild grip for around 20 bucks). The next big difference for me was a wider handlebar and shorter stem, so you are already on the right way ;). Also if you can only afford the cheapest suntour fork, i would recommend going for a rigid fork, since my suntour fork had way to much flex and no damping. The least expensive one i would go for is something in the range of the rockshox 35. And if you're looking for a new bike, i would recommend one of the new generation of hardcore hardtails (for example nukeproof scout, cube reaction tm or marin san quentin). They are just as capable as full suspension trail bike, but for a tighter budget. But most importantly have fun on your bike for now, enjoy your improvements no matter how small they may be and keep looking forward to your hopefully one day new bike

[@johngonzalez1193]

@@jonaslo6011 what do you recommend for shin and knee protection?

[@TubeYou7]

My hardtail (2018 Talon 2) came with a 2x that I kept and I kind of like. It's not riveted and it's a little bit lighter and less complex than a 3X while still allowing you to drop down to a smaller ring for an instant climbing gear.

[@alexgarza8554]

Damn, this video was perfect! I hardly comment on videos, but this one covered so much and answered so many of my questions. Man thank you for taking the time to make this, subscribed for sure.

[@youtubeviewer9523]

All these points make sense and it was well explained, great job Seth! Although I will still be sticking with my 11 speed gx cause of how simple and low maintenance it is

[@topspot4834]

Yeah aside from the point about cheap bikes having to have em, there's no logical explanation to ever choose 3x anymore. The benefits of a 1x drivetrain FAR outweigh those on a loud, clunky 3x.

[@youtubeviewer9523]

@@topspot4834 totally agreed

[@R_o_b_e_r_t]

@@topspot4834 just say you cant adjust gears properly

[@R_o_b_e_r_t]

1x have more maintenance because you have to change the chainring and cassette more often

[@Max-xl3ml]

2x also still works great. Imo what makes a front derailleur go from good to great is a friction thumbshifter. The biggest downside to the FD is that they seem to wander away from their indexing faster but with friction you never have to worry about that, you can trim it perfect every time just with your thumb.

[@MrGrumpyjohn01]

yep..exactly how I roll on my 2 x9 HT..18 gears & I can use all of them...with all the other advs of a FD and none of the drawbacks of 1 x and lighter than 3 x plus high end 9 spd kit is cheap....win win

[@JDLopes82]

Great video. Another good point of a 3* is speed. You’ll in most cases have a much higher gear than any 1* setup so will rarely spin out on a downhill. (Ie with a 1x12 for example after a certain speed the gear won’t keep up so you can’t apply more force) I still have a 3x9 setup on my trusty orange5

[@adambrickley1119]

That is literally the only benefit. 2 speed hubs will arrive soon imo and completely negate this benefit. I dont buy his argument that you cant down shift on a gradient. Never been an issue for me.

[@JDLopes82]

@@adambrickley1119 it’s not about downshifting, it’s the fact that having the larger crank on a 3 speed gives you greater top end speed. Both have benefits I love my 1 x setup for its simplicity but also love having a rig that is old skool 3x9 just wish you could still source these components more easily .

[@gatoryak7332]

@@adambrickley1119 Yeah, down-shifting while pedaling uphill is no problem if you pedal correctly - just slow your pedaling for a millisecond at the time of the chain moving between gears. This slowdown takes less time than it takes for a front derailleur to move the chain from the middle chain ring to the inner ring. So, better downshifting under load is, in reality, an advantage of the 1x systems.

[@adambrickley1119]

@@JDLopes82 I literally just said that was the only benefit b4 mentioning downshifting. Read the whole thread.

[@adambrickley1119]

@@gatoryak7332 Also changing chainrings usually means a rear mech shift too or the gear interval is too large.

[@JusTryNc]

I have no idea why I started watching your videos, never been into bicycles, I'm into motorcycles, but I absolutely enjoy watching your videos.

[@VladOnEarth]

My personal problem with 1by, is tip speed. Interesting that you haven't mentioned that at all. That was basically one deal breaker to me as much as I love 1x. The bike I bought was a budget bike with 30T ring, and even at the highest gear the bike was very slow on a road.

[@dandup570]

I prefer the 3x system mostly for cost-saving and the top speed on long downhills. 1x12s can't keep up. The time and energy saved for having a lighter 1x setup can't compare. It's only on gruelling technical, slower routes where a 1x12 seems to make much more sense.

[@randomvideosn0where]

@@dandup570 I am not convinced that 1x can go as low either. My 3x I could tow my car if I wanted!

[@LEXXIUS]

I really love the 3x10 on my bike! A lot of small steps to adjust to any riding condition.

[@amitkumar-wj8gn]

also, 3bys make it much easier to cycle on roads and flat surfaces. a 48*11 (on a 48 38 28) triple will make riding on roads so much easier as opposed to a 32*11, i assume.

[@cyclesingsleep]

When I was bicycling everyday to commute to work doing interior remodeling...and going up and over bridges...with my trailer loaded down with a miter saw, table saw, and materials...my Campy 3x was THE necessary component! Then, when I was unhooked and blowing around on the weekends, the large chainring was the only one I needed...perfect versatility!

[@alexguiver815]

I have 3x drivetrains on all my 26er bikes and have no intention of changing to 1x any time soon. What I like about 3x is it gives enough gear ratios to ride an MTB on the road as well as the trails; anything from 40+mph down a big hill on asphalt using 44/11 to a knarly off-road climb on 22/34. So you can ride TO the trails as well as around them which I don't really think is possible with 1x. Also I've heard the thin 1x chains don't last 5 minutes; I ride in sand and gravel so that wouldn't suit me. Just wish Shimano would still offer a 3x Hollowtech II crankset with 175mm arms!!

[@davefool6815]

I've got a hollowtech 2 ... Don't they make them no more! Wow I better take it off my shitty pub bike from 1993 that I don't care about and use a crappy crankset on it

[@MadisonTen]

I always fancied a 1 or 2-by, but when I’m on say a long cycle bit of tarmac with 16 miles of traffic free path ahead of me, I love being able to switch up to the 3rd cog and get some real speed without running out of gearing. I can’t imagine loosing that and at the same time having access to super easy gear on the first cog,

[@gatoryak7332]

True, but we're talking mountain biking here. No tarmac riding, no long stretches of flat, smooth path.

[@MadisonTen]

@@gatoryak7332 Mountain bikes aren't always for forests and downhill.

[@aerickvesereu1796]

The marketing point definitely works. When I was a kid everyone wanted the bike with the most gears.

[@resynthesizer4565]

Mechanical and cable complications aside, nothing beats jumping front chain rings. Much better than sweeping the whole rear stack.

[@EverydayCycling]

7:34 "...to explain why 29 gears are better..." That would be a huge cassette 😂😂😂 Too good of a video, listed points I've never thought about!

[@martinbrandmuller8272]

He's probably talking about the typical 3x9.67 budget bike drivetrain ;)

[@EverydayCycling]

@@martinbrandmuller8272 haha how did I forget about that one!? I was thinking more of a 1 x 29.

[@BermPeakExpress]

Haha, definitely misspoke and meant to say 27 😭

[@samhenderson7528]

@@BermPeakExpress no Seth he means the 2045 1x29 system

[@samhenderson7528]

@HoldenVTCalais nearly 29,000 gears sounds nice… but I’d rather have it in 1x28,980 form

[@SbassLaser]

I've got a 2x8 on my bike and while I mostly only use the rear derailleur, having the front derailleur for steep climbs is a huge benefit

[@crabtrap]

a 1x11 with a oval chain ring would fix that prob and wt 30% less

[@vittocrazi]

werent oval chainrings a gimmick, though? @@crabtrap

[@crabtrap]

@@vittocrazi how would they be a gimmick? Its simple physics. Only on road bikes is there little differance. HUGE differance on mtn bikes offroad.

[@vittocrazi]

@@crabtrap because "simple physics" sometimes dont translate to real Life to its fully extent. In this case, the T numbrer would provide 95% of the improvements, and the oval 5%. Just to throw numbers. So if they did the swap and they feel 10% better, then the oval would be bringing a whooping 0.5% upgrade, for a premium price. Ive read they feel better... But It shouldnt affect gear range by any means...

[@crabtrap]

@@vittocrazi is 'feel' a physics term? Must be new woke physics. Your out of ass 95%/5% numbers make zero sense. Oval ring works by increasing leg torque on powerstroke and decreasing on relexed stroke. Thus smoothing out cranked power to wheel. This reduces wheel slippage on hill climbs. It also increases relaxed stroke climb efficiantcy by reducing gear ratio momentarily. Power stroke is 34tooth. Relax stroke is 32 tooth as example. As for cost. Its the same as any chainring of equal quality. $15-$20 for decent ring.