Why are Atheists Angry at God?

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I recently saw a clip of an interaction between a street evangelist and elderly atheist in which the latter angrily denounced God to him and the crowd of onlookers. And before he could respond, the atheist turned his back and walked away.
What I find with a significant sample size of atheists is that they don’t just disagree with certain doctrines of religion, like Christianity - they hate it, in an unambiguous way. The lack of ambiguity is demonstrated by the consistent habit of relying on condescension, ridicule, and what Chesterton called “the sneer”. They don’t just disagree; they consider the thing to be contemptuous.
But when pressed, I’ve seen many leading atheists, Richard Dawkins and Peter Atkins come to mind, admit that there isn’t any possible evidence that would persuade them. For example, if they were to witness a miracle, some event that is impossible without supernatural intervention - which is the only kind of evidence that could exceed reasonable doubt, they would rather conclude that they were hallucinating or had gone insane than admit that something supernatural had occurred.
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
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[@BrianHoldsworth]

Support the channel by visiting: brianholdsworth.locals.com/ or brianholdsworth.ca/support

[@Topazdemonia]

You need to start talking to a wider range of atheists, or any at all. You seem to either not have personal experiences with atheists or you cherry pick the views that fit your narrative. Most atheists that I have been are not mad at god, they are upset because they feel like they've wasted their time following a thing they no longer believe exists.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

meh, let god support you.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

The projection, evasion, and gaslighting in this video is exquisite. You’re a real apologist. Congrats.

[@smokyquartz5817]

Amen.

[@thecloudtherapist]

That's an opinion, not a rebuttal.

[@thecloudtherapist]

​@@smokyquartz5817The most humourous statements are those that mimic without knowing what it is that they are mimicking.

[@weirdwilliam8500]

@@thecloudtherapistOh, was I not supposed to give my opinion in the comment section? And how does one rebut a false psychoanalysis of an entire category of people? I could point to all the polling data that consistently shows that the least religious countries and the happiest and most peaceful on average. Or all the polling data of deconverts on why they left Christianity, which directly contradicts this guy’s cringey claims. I could reference Hassan’s BITE model, that explains in detail how authoritarian indoctrination teaches the in-group members to demonize outsiders using false narratives, exactly as we saw in this video. Literally every objective, observable fact that can be pointed to in reality goes against the claims in this video. But theists base their beliefs on emotional neediness, not reality, so I wouldn’t expect any of this data to be impactful. (As WLC said, he will ignore any evidence that goes against his inner religious feelings.) So I didn’t initially mention it. I don’t mind explaining, though.

[@gagarin12A3]

My experience is that former Christians carry more trauma and therefore more negative emotions towards their former world view than lifelong atheists. Same applies to ex-muslims. Makes sense to me, I wasn't raised in a religion and find religions interesting. I only get upset when people do heinous things in the name of the supernatural.

[@AndrewTheMandrew531]

Allow my experience to add to the pile. I did a lot worse when I didn’t hold myself accountable to any universal moral authority as an atheist in my teens, then I did as a Catholic convert. I left my faith as a young teen out of a very similar resentment that Brian describes in his video. I only came back to the faith years later.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

lol, i've always been atheist and what religists will never understand is god plays absolutely no part in my life at all, in fact i've known my ex wife for thirty years and only found out she is atheist too a month ago - atheists do not care about gods, i have had exactly four conversations IRL about god - none of which was prompted by me - since i left school in 1970. anyone who imagines atheists spend all day chanting "there is no god there is no god" has no idea what an atheist is. most "i used to be atheist and i was like this" either have no clue that they were really theist all along or just outright liars, and given what christians are like i'd go for liars most of the time. christians are odious and dishonest.

[@Finckelstein]

@@AndrewTheMandrew531 Holding yourself accountable? That's exactly the opposite of what christians are doing. You claim that this shadowy figure you call Jesus took on all your sins for you. Cool, so you're shirking responsibility. I am absolutely fine with being judged on my actions and don't need substitutionary atonement. I reject your Jesus BECAUSE I hold myself accountable (and because he isn't real). Christianity is for charlatans and scoundrels.

[@Topazdemonia]

Also I think it's more that people who leave religion realize that they've wasted a part of their life for something they most likely didn't decide to believe on their own, which sucks

[@korbendallas5318]

I think the more important question is: Why are all theists so mad at Sauron?

[@ben0298]

My atheist science professor declared that he hated 'religious people'. Thats quite a lot of people he hates 😅

[@marvalice3455]

Many such cases

[@Chamindo7]

Wow! I'd ask him if that includes muslims? In Canada politicians etc bend over backwards to venerate Islam for some bizarre reason.

[@BriscoJr.]

Including, presumably, himself, as a person with very strong and obvious thoughts on religious matters.

[@Bill_Garthright]

So, is that "atheist science professor" real, or just imaginary? I mean, that's a common meme in Christian movies, but it seems silly to me. I never knew what any of my college professors thought about religion, except for those who wore a small cross as jewelry, at least. Why would I? It certainly never came up in class. Again, why would it? And in _science_ class? Why would a science professor mention religion _at all_ in science class? It's completely off-topic. And if it were in a public school (in America, at least; I don't know about other countries), why wouldn't he get fired for that? (If it was in a Christian school, he wouldn't even have been _hired._ Christian colleges often make their employees sign 'letters of faith' assuring college administration that they believe exactly whatever silly thing the administrators do.) Maybe it's true; maybe not. Maybe you've just been watching too many Christian movies? I have reason to be skeptical, certainly.

[@marvalice3455]

@@Bill_Garthright cringè You have no reason to even be hear. No reason. No reason to have read the story in the first place.

[@Mythraen]

Here, Brian demonstrates he doesn't know what the word "prejudice" means. He additionally demonstrates his prejudice against atheists by, in isolation, telling other people what atheists, of which he is not one, think. Atheists may be angry, but few, if any, are angry at a fictional being. It's the religion and its followers that piss them off.

[@stressaccount7664]

I've commented a few times on Catholic channels in favour of the Christian views in contrast to materialistic atheistic dogma, and every time I got a few snarky comments. They comes across like petulant teenagers who are just angry but don't really know why so they try to make you upset.

[@totalmalarkey]

Wow. Thats some good poisoning the well there, but I'll take your obvious bait. I'm angry because the church I grew up in is the largest criminal organization in the world. Between harboring child rapists, laundering money and profiting off the desperate, I think I have good cause to be angry.

[@konyvnyelv.]

Atheist dogma?🤡

[@HarryNicNicholas]

that's because you come across as an arrogant know-it-all who claims the creator is a good friend while having nothing to back up the claim a creator exits, you're just really annoying little twerps who have little or no self awareness, you piss people off and you think it's great that you do. all you have is hot air and you think you're fantastic.

[@randomusername3873]

People tend to be snarky when a guy that support the biggest pedo organization on the planet act like there's some value to it

[@Mythraen]

Your personal biases make you come across as immature and prejudiced. Also, exceptionally lacking in critical thinking.

[@Dram1984]

“Oh and if God isn’t real will kids still die of cancer?”

[@slynt_]

What kind of argument is this supposed to be? Wishful thinking?

[@imusmoedegrasse]

If there is a God, he/she/it doesn't seem to care about any living organisms pain and suffering or contracting any life threatening diseases or conditions. So, until humans can find a cure for cancer, cancer will continue to be a health problem.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

jesus healed a leper. humans cured leprosy. even when (imaginary) god is helping he is crap and humans can make a better job of it. tell me, i can see that volcanoes might in the long run help us to build character, but do we need tsunamis and tornadoes too, and okay smallpox might teach us lessons about life, but do we need measles and chicken pox and rubella and mumps and typhoid too? and i've never broken a bone or been hospitalised, the worst that's happened to me is bruising - am i missing out on character building. there is no god, nature is doing it's thing.

[@franciscoflamenco]

They would but that's to be expected in an amoral world (like the one we seem to live in).

[@nld8985]

the reason the man walked away after pointing out a flaw with your god is that hes heard EVERY response before..... we all have heard every response.... it gets old.

[@Mythraen]

Note: They're also all bad.

[@smokyquartz5817]

It's all about memorizing responses.

[@stultusvenator3233]

Stupid dangerous people kind of make me mad but mostly just sorry for them.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

yes, religists require pity, they are just scared of god.

[@Patristix]

Just want to say that your waistcoat is excellent. Very nice

[@james-russellgause4735]

Lex Luthor, Sauron, Thanos the Mad Titan, Dr. No... Angry at all of them...

[@rightpa]

This video is a magnificent attack on a very carefully constructed strawman. Bravo.

[@thecloudtherapist]

How can that be, when the likes of Dawkins are publicly documented as saying they won't worship God, even if he proved his existence to them. Dawkins was once asked what would you say to God when you die. He said he'd ask why was God so hidden? Is that not at least one piece of evidence for the notion put forward in this video?

[@mattculp2189]

Thank you for all you do...God bless you! ✝️ JMJ

[@skepticmonkey6923]

The comparison to flat earth is not at all sound, for two reasons. The shape of the earth and the existence of a deity are first of positioned on two different ontological levels, the shape of the earth is simply a debate about the material world, as we already have an assurance in the existence of the physical world around us, it requires less sufficient evidence that the earth is this shape or that, its a matter of empirical investigation which can be empirically proven or disproven. The problem of the existence of a deity necessitates more strong proof to be sufficient, because there is no assurance through empirical evidence and sense data that this metaphysical entity exists, so by its nature, a metaphysical claim such as the existence of a deity cant really even be proven by empirical claims, it would have to be proven by rational investigation. This is why its not unreasonable to question "evidence" of god in terms of miracles, just going by Occam's razor, what is more likely? That this is a physical process that we don't have the tools to understand/that our senses have in some way deceived us or that we now have to now assume an entirely empirically unknowable metaphysical realm of existence? The latter requires a much greater leap of reason, and has always in history been remembered as ridiculous, everything we thought were demons, witchcraft and miracles we can now explain based on scientific evidence. If it was ridiculous to assume earthquakes were punishment by god because people had no knowledge or tools to understand them as geological processes, then its just as ridiculous to assume that a miracle we encounter now is actually a miracle, what's most intuitive is not always what's most rational.

[@stultusvenator3233]

The latter requires the abandoning of all reason.

[@pattlehed]

Yeah, and I'm mad at Santa Clause too.

[@truthgiver8286]

Never been angry at any of the gods but I do get angry at people from these cults who actively try to draw the weak willed and children into said cult without any evidence for what they are peddling it should not be allowed.

[@dottorb7054]

Right: wokism, BLM, Slava Ukraine - new cults monthly destroying youth

[@randomusername3873]

​@@dottorb7054and the reasons those activisms are considered bad is that they seem religious in behaviour. Kinda funny 😂

[@kevinjanghj]

A friend of mine who says he is agnostic told me once, "You know how I feel about Jesus." He meant hatred. It was because he was openly gay and could not accept Christianity's objections to his homosexuality which he wanted to live out. The personal animus thing which Brian Holdsworth talked about is so true. Humans, us included, let our emotions shape our perceptions of God and that often reflects as well in what we bring to our encounters with the gospel and holy scripture. Sometimes, we Christians, Catholic or non-Catholic, also do not put forth the best example of God too so people form their impressions negatively based on that.

[@smokyquartz5817]

Doesn't sound like you deserve this friend.

[@chrisrose6873]

3:31 love the vsauce footage

[@larschristianalm]

I’m an atheist, and walking away before hearing the response to the problem of horrendous suffering might be unreasonable, but maybe he’s not interested in hearing the same old apologist excuses. It’s a fair criticism to blast the assumed existing God for not preventing the suffering of the holocaust, assuming God exists. It’s reasonable to be angry at the lack of divinely protective care (assuming God is real). An omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient god should be willing and able to prevent such atrocities. And please spare me from the free-will-excuse and other cliched defenses of this imaginary god. But atheists are not angry at God. They’re not angry at something they don’t believe in. It’s poor that theists still to this day and age ask that stupid old question. Christians should be better informed than this, and not continue to spread that silly stereotype and prejudice against atheists. Sure, atheists can also be guilty of the same against Christians, so let’s all do better.

[@RustyWalker]

I hate the doctrine of sacrificing humans to appease Huitzilopochtli and maintain his favour so that he continues to combat the forces of darkness. If believers stopped feeding him human hearts and blood, how could the Sun continue to cross the sky? It would mean the end was upon us!

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

Well then Christianity is for you! The angry god jehovah killed his son only once! As long as you keep doing what Brian’s religion tells you to do, he won’t burn you in hell forever and ever, what a deal!

[@Nick-ij5nt]

If you find yourself in a debate with an atheist the first thing that you should ask off the bat is "If Christianity were true would you become a Christian?" and if they say no then immediately stop engaging with them, all you can do is pray for them. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

[@fishdude9102]

My response to that question is simple. Demonstrate Christianity is true first and then we can discuss if i'd become a Christian.

[@Nick-ij5nt]

@@fishdude9102 Why would I spend my time giving you the truth if you're a person that doesn't care about listening to or adhering to the truth?

[@fishdude9102]

@@Nick-ij5nt Well, until you can actually demonstrate you have "the truth"......it's just your opinion without evidence.

[@Nick-ij5nt]

@@fishdude9102 I'll give you the truth once you can demonstrate how atheism can give you objective truth claims or why objective truth claims should be adhered to under an atheist paradigm.

[@fishdude9102]

@@Nick-ij5nt deflect, deflect, deflect... don't wasting my time with yet another theist, who makes claims and then refuses to back them up. *Claims made WITHOUT evidence can be dismissed without evidence*

[@Silver77cyn]

I can't for all atheists, but personally I am angry at the men who claim to speak for a god, that lied to me, and wasted a huge part of my life on a facade. Which may or may not be why some atheists are always angry or confrontational, and may appear to hate god, but if we did we would not be atheists.

[@marvalice3455]

Still waiting on your defense...

[@sebastianofmilan]

Each of those people will have to answer for their sins before their Creator one day. Lies/false religions/heretic sects wreak havoc on humans. I understand the frustration... Because some people lie doesn't mean everyone are liars. Because some religions or sects are false doesn't mean there isn't a true religion. It takes a lot to come to terms with the people who hurt you, but if you can forgive them and move on it'd make you happier and holier, and perhaps you would have an easier time navigating these big questions. God bless.

[@Bill_Garthright]

I can understand that. It was different for me. I was raised Christian. I didn't know a single other person who _wasn't_ a Christian all the time I grew up. But I don't remember ever believing it, myself. So I didn't have that wrenching change of losing any religious beliefs. That must have been difficult. Back when I was a kid, I thought it was kind of silly, but harmless. No one seemed to take it very seriously, except for an hour on Sundays. No one _acted_ like they believed it. And they all apparently believed it only because they'd been taught to believe it as children by parents who'd also been taught to believe it as children. That seemed like a poor reason to me. (Even as a kid, I knew that there were other religions, past and present, that people believed for the same reason my friends and family believed in this one.) I'm still angry sometimes, of course. I'm angry at priests who rape children and the church which covered it up, moving pedophile priests to new, unsuspecting parishes where they could find fresh victims. I'm angry at the evil things religious people are still doing in the name of their god. I'm angry that faith-based thinking is destroying my country and my world. But to pretend that means I'm angry at "God" is just silly. I don't believe that gods are even _real._ How could I be angry at imaginary beings?

[@Burt1038]

@@Bill_Garthright Priests are no more likely to engage in sexual misconduct that normal people, and far less than teachers or other positions of authority. "evil things in the name of god" is a pointless distinction, since people are just as liable to commit evil acts for non-religious reasons. Are you angry at communism? Or feminism? I doubt it. You have a very poorly developed methodology based on fallacious reasoning. You need to fix that before you even begin to have a rational discussion about God or religion.

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@Burt1038 _"Priests are no more likely to engage in sexual misconduct that normal people"_ I'm a normal person, but I don't rape kids. I wouldn't cover up child rape, either - or _any_ rape. But OK, you can claim that priests are no better than anyone else. I don't know why the Catholic Church would give them positions of authority, then. I don't know why the Catholic Church would teach _children_ that priests are special, that priests should be listened to and obeyed. That seems foolish, doesn't it? But fine, if your god makes you no better than anyone else - and a lot worse than most - fine. *But the Catholic Church covered up the rape of children, while helping rapists find other children to rape.* _That's_ one of my big problems with the church. Not the only one - far from it. There are other problems, too, of course. But that's really a big one, don't you think? It's hard for me to understand why the Catholic Church still _exists_ after that. If _child rape_ isn't enough to get Catholics to switch to a slightly different version of the same basic superstition, what _would_ be? The leaders of the church demonstrated very clearly that they cared not at all for the children of their parishioners, but _everything_ for the reputation of their own organization, _everything_ for their own status and authority. And how long has this been going on? How long have priests been raping children with no accountability? Well, for decades, certainly, but very likely for _centuries._ But hey, no problem for Catholics, huh? _"people are just as liable to commit evil acts for non-religious reasons."_ To quote Steven Weinberg: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." Now, I _don't_ entirely agree with that. Non-religious ideology can also get good people to do evil things. But religion is special, because religion claims that they're doing evil for their _god._ That's quite an excuse, don't you agree? No non-religious ideology can have an excuse like that! How can finite evil even _matter,_ compared to eternity, right? Of course, none of that matters in this particular discussion, because I don't support _non-religious_ people who do evil, either. I don't support _non-religious_ people who rape children. And I would not support a _secular_ group which covered up child rape, moving rapists around so they could stay hidden and continue raping children, _either._ OK, so your religion is no better than anything else? Fine. But I don't support _any_ organization which facilitates child rape. And I don't know why anyone _would._ _"You have a very poorly developed methodology based on fallacious reasoning."_ And you seem to be desperately trying to defend child rapists and an organization which has supported those rapists for decades, if not centuries. I don't know why. _"You need to fix that before you even begin to have a rational discussion about God or religion."_ No, I don't. I can - and _will_ - maintain my dislike of child rape. If you don't like it, tough! And as I say, that's only one example among many. It's a very _noteworthy_ example, which is why it's always worth mentioning when talking about the Catholic Church in particular (not that Protestant organizations haven't also had the same problem, of course). And the church's reliance on sexually-repressed celibates likely doesn't help matters any! But that has little to do with gods or religion _in general._ Not every religious organization is as bad as the Catholic Church, and I don't claim otherwise. But they're all faith-based, not evidence-based, and faith-based thinking is destroying my country and my world. Again, not every religion is part of that. Again, Christians can't even agree with _other Christians_ about much of anything, let alone with the other faith-based people in the world, even when they're all supposedly following the same magic book supposedly provided to them by the same supposedly all-knowing deity! And I do _not_ argue otherwise. None of this has anything to do with my atheism. I'm an atheist because I've seen no good evidence that _any_ god is actually real, rather than just imaginary. That's all. That's all it's about. Show me good evidence that a god is real, and I'll change my mind. I certainly don't hate all religious people - hardly any, in fact - and I don't hate most religious groups. Heck, I've been surrounded by Christians all my life. I was _raised_ Christian. I'm not an atheist because I hate anyone. I'm an atheist because I see no good evidence that _any_ god is real, rather than just imaginary. And I oppose faith-based thinking because I care about the truth. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking, while there is nothing - literally *nothing* - so crazy, so harmful, or so wrong that it _can't_ be defended by an appeal to faith. I used to think that religion was kind of silly, but harmless. Unfortunately, even the _best_ examples of religion don't seem to be harmless, because faith-based thinking is the fundamental problem with all of them. And faith-based thinking is destroying my country and my world. But even _that_ is not why I'm an atheist. After all, I was still an atheist back when I thought that religion was harmless. Do you have *one piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself,* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? No? Well, _that's_ why I don't believe in gods.

[@catholicfemininity2126]

What if that guy getting mad at the street preacher wasn't really angry about the Jews that led him to that, what if he was angry about God not helping him in his life, but he decided to mention injustice to the Jews?

[@commonsensecatechistr9370]

That would be the argument the devil would use.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i vote for satan at every chance, the devil is a much more reasonable person than god. compare the two, god is a despot.

[@twostickzach1739]

the sports analogy made me chuckle - you haven't watched much American sports media huh? (love the video - thanks for making them)

[@malachih3]

I think because Angels and Demons don’t care so much who wins rookie of the year, I’ve struggled with it myself, harshly, I didn’t believe anyone was a real Christian and God sent a woman back into my life after years who showed me she is and what Gods done for her even though she’d done wrong things God still always comes back and I let go of a lot of my “WHY DID GOD ALLOW THIS TO ME” anger, as we know God allows all things, now I’ve seen that amazing go back to her abusive baby daddy who almost beat her into a coma and she’s talked to me about leaving him twice since being back with him saying she feels she’s becoming someone she knows she’s not meant to be, and I try to help and it hurts me when she goes silent again cuz she’s known abuse her whole life and she can’t seem to break free of this and lately I’ve wondered if God allows this for her because I keep getting frustrated, I know God exists, I want to love him better, he’s truly helping me love my family better, taking on more and better work, doing more good and less bad and I don’t care if she ends up with me or not it just kills me seeing her become someone she’s not meant to be, seeing him used her son as leverage not a son, and worrying he’s gonna leave her right eye blue, her left eye black, and her throat purple in a doctors office being told if you sleep in the next 14 hours you will fall into a coma and likely die. Please pray for her. Sorry for over sharing I started by talking about my experience with the topic but my experience with it is truly my biggest and possibly my only struggle that pulls me back

[@captainobvious8037]

Haven't seen the video, but the title basically says "man who doesn't believe in unicorns gets angry at a unicorn". My man needs to get his lack of believe in order.

[@markpugner9716]

He uses that wording in the title intentionally, and elaborates on it within the video.

[@raymundnielsen3054]

The right question to ask would be "why are agnostics (including me) left in the vacuum where all we have is "I don't know"?. Is there a way where this God label can take some form that gets active and plays any role in our daily life. I want an active God, not some black box where we put everything that doesn't make sense. The question would be what sustainable expectations can we have on this God, (some degree of having our back maybe) and what part of our life are we left on our own. For my part I am disappointed in Go, as everything I was brought up believing has failed - the image I have left of God is an old deaf, tired man sleeping in a rocking chair. So doesn't make much difference if that God exists, or it an illusion.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

there is no god, stop wasting your time being agnostic, get a hobby forget about god. i've always been atheist, i never needed a god for anything, never think about god outside of youtube. god is a waste of folks lives

[@killianmiller6107]

One thing I think everyone has a strong intuition of is this: the way things are is not the way things are meant to be. This implies there is a way things are meant to be, and we don’t have it. I find this to be an implicit evidence for the Fall.

[@Bill_Garthright]

_"I find this to be an implicit evidence for the Fall."_ Why isn't it implicit evidence that your god is just imaginary? After all, if Christians are right, "the Fall" must have been God's plan. An omniscient being can't be surprised, so "God" must have known everything that would happen before he even created the universe. And that's a silly kind of plan, isn't it? And an omnipotent being could have made the universe, and everyone in it, differently, if he'd wanted. He could have made each individual one of us differently, if he'd wanted, or he could have created someone else, instead of us. You don't have some _other_ god forcing him to create particular people do you? Besides, your premise is wrong. We _don't_ all have that same intuition. Maybe most Christians do, and you don't know anyone but Christians? Of course, Christians are taught that as _children,_ at a time when they readily believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy,... and God. Other children around the world are taught to believe in _different_ magical beings. And typically, they believe whatever they're told by trusted adults in their life. That's why religion tends to be tribal. Faith-based people tend to believe whatever their people believe, almost always whatever they were taught to believe as children. Personally, I _don't_ feel that anything is "meant to be." I do feel that some things are wrong, because they're cruel or unjust or something else I wouldn't want to suffer through. (Bigotry, for example. Or slavery. Or... cancer in children.) But "meant to be"? No, I don't feel that in the _slightest._ I'm evidence-based, not faith-based. I see absolutely no reason to think that the natural world was "meant to be." The natural world is what _is,_ not what was "meant to be." If all of this was "meant to be," your god is an idiot - and a monster. But it's more likely he's just imaginary, don't you think?

[@kreatillion1718]

@@Bill_Garthright Surely we can imagine a world where there isn't any death, suffering, sickness, ignorance, lies, injustice, slavery, ugliness, or hatred; something like a world of truth, goodness, and beauty. If we can't exactly imagine it (because it's like imagining heaven), we at least yearn for it and would want that world to exist, yet we don't have it. A strange desire for people to have for something that's impossible to attain (on atheism). And atheists complain all the time about why a good God would create a world with suffering in it, as if they imply it should be better than it is. On that they are correct in a sense, this is my point about how things now are not how they are meant to be, and this is _not God's fault but man's,_ since God gave us Eden and "we" wanted the knowledge of good and evil apart from God. The Gospel is God's rescue operation for his creation. People say that "original sin is the most evident doctrine of Christianity, just open the newspaper." What right do we have to say humans are not meant to be bought and sold as subhuman property if atheism is true? Where are you left if the way things are (in all its brokenness) is just the way things are, and there is no redemption for any of it? At least I'm objecting to the perception that Christians believe the way things are is the way things ARE meant to be. God can foresee and allow evil (privation of good) like the Fall to bring about a greater good, even one we can't see yet. For instance, Adam may have known about God's justice, but unless he fell he would never learn his mercy. God sees the whole story in one perfect moment, but we can't. Perhaps we can think of it like this: if God is like an author writing a story (where the characters are free), would it not have some kind of conflict? Such as the conflict between the free will of creatures and the creator's will? That's what the Fall is, and that's arguably what all sin is at a fundamental level, saying "my will be done, not yours." You can make remarks about religion as though it's only something that's imposed on children who just cling to whatever they were taught. To a degree, yes, the culture informs what a person believes, and reason eventually prevails over false beliefs, but Christians can account for that with things like invincible ignorance. Every culture is aware of transcendentals, even if they go about it in imperfect ways, there remains rays of truth. Also atheists indoctrinate their kids too. Perhaps I can just as easily say you just don't want to think about there being a world where things are "meant to be" because of what that implies (God). Interestingly, I've been thinking about a certain argument from design that observes that created things are on some level arbitrary. As an aspiring product designer myself, I realize that there is no one set way to make something, details could always differ; a pencil sharpener doesn't have to be necessarily angled at 30 degrees. In the same way, does grass have to be green, why not pink? God could have made things differently, but he chose this way for some reason, and this reveals some kind of intent from the fact that things are "this way" and yet don't have to be "this way." Implicit in this argument is the contingency argument, that things that exist in the world can't explain their own existence, so they must appeal to something outside itself to explain it, which can't keep going ad infintum, so there must be a necessary terminator to the chain which fully explains itself, which is God. I'll add that faith and evidence don't have to be opposed to each other. Faith is a trust in revelation; it is what brings you to final assent to a truth, while evidence points you in that direction. Reason brings clarity, faith brings depth. Just imagine how many scientists you are putting your faith in that they're telling you the truth; and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Your last paragraph shows you misunderstood me, I hope this clears it up. Sorry about the length.

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@kreatillion1718 _"Surely we can imagine a world where there isn't any death"_ You know? I don't think that I can. Death is a part of life. As far as I can tell, if there wasn't death, there wouldn't be life - not anything we'd recognize as "life," certainly. Death _allows_ life. But anyway, if I want to imagine things, I'll read a fantasy novel. I'm more concerned with what's actually true. _"And atheists complain all the time about why a good God would create a world with suffering in it, as if they imply it should be better than it is."_ It _should_ be, if a "good God" exists. But that's not a "complaint." It's just an observation. This world really isn't consistent with the idea of a "good God." And the Bible _definitely_ isn't consistent with that! Now, I'm not saying that death wouldn't exist. But there'd be a whole lot less unnecessary suffering. Cancer in children, for example? What kind of "good God" would give cancer to children? Or birth defects? Or parasitic worms which burrow into a child's eye and blind them? I could go on and on. Somewhere in the world, as you read this, a child is choking to death, thanks to the idiotic way we breath and eat from the same opening. If a god designed that, he should be fired. But there's zero evidence that it's anything but natural evolutionary processes which simply _can't_ plan ahead. _"this is my point about how things now are not how they are meant to be, and this is not God's fault but man's, since God gave us Eden"_ Don't be silly. First, you don't really take that Garden of Eden story _seriously,_ do you? Even _Christians_ don't believe that actually happened, most of them. (This is a Catholic channel. Catholics don't believe in a literal Garden of Eden, do they?) But more importantly, modern Christians tell me that their god is omniscient and omnipotent. If that's true, then everything that happened was God's _plan._ If an omniscient, omnipotent creator god exists, then he knew everything that was going to happen before he even created the universe. You can't surprise an omniscient deity. And an _omnipotent_ deity would not be limited on who or what he created. So, if that is true, he created _exactly_ the world he knew he would get. If there's any fault to be had, it is _definitely_ God's. _"What right do we have to say humans are not meant to be bought and sold as subhuman property if atheism is true?"_ Heh, heh. You've have _got_ to be kidding me! The Bible _tells_ you to do that. How in the world can you bring up slavery when the Bible _tells_ you to buy and sell human beings as property??? Have you not even read your own 'holy book'? Check out Leviticus 25:44-46. It lays out precisely America's system of race-based slavery. It even tells you _why_ you should enslave those... other people, instead of your own people (not that it doesn't support enslaving them, too). _"For instance, Adam may have known about God's justice, but unless he fell he would never learn his mercy."_ Wow! Your god is really a complete POS, isn't he? Luckily, there seems to be no good reason to think that he's anything but just imaginary. _"if God is like an author writing a story (where the characters are free), would it not have some kind of conflict?"_ So God is just fiction? Yeah, that makes sense. _"Perhaps I can just as easily say"_ You can say anything you like. But as long as you don't have even *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself, backing up your religious beliefs, I'm not going to be able to take it seriously. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. So, as long as you don't have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking, I just can't take your claims seriously. _"God could have made things differently, but he chose this way for some reason"_ *Evidence?* _"there must be a necessary terminator to the chain which fully explains itself, which is God."_ *Evidence?* _"Faith is a trust in revelation"_ Faith - in the religious sense of the word - is belief without evidence or despite the evidence. It can't be trust, based on the evidence, as long as you don't have anything - *anything* - distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs. Do you? Just *one* specific example? Just *one* piece of good evidence that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Of *one* piece of good evidence that _any_ of the magical/supernatural stories in the Bible actually happened? Thanks for the reply!

[@kreatillion1718]

​@@Bill_Garthright your comment got deleted? After "imagining" I basically agreed that we can't fully imagine that world, so I talked about how we at least yearn for a true, good, and beautiful world. I agree, you agree, God agrees that it should not be the case that a child should become blind from a parasite. The thing is God doesn't actively send the parasite, he allows it. For what purpose I may never know. This is a product of a corrupted world where God's good presence is "blocked" in a sense, and is again an evidence for how this is not how things are meant to be. In the place where God is fully present, heaven, no such thing would exist. You will note that Jesus healed the sick, not made them sick. I think it is good to make peace with death, but I also think it's not "meant to be." People mourn when loved ones die, and for good reason, death isn't good. I would say it's a product of the Fall, in one sense it humbles us; and it's why "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." It's also why we profess a resurrection; as we are now, immortality would be bad, we would be stuck in an decaying world as things lose their temporal meaning, but after being made righteous, eternal life in the beatific vision is what we were made for. Catholics don't necessarily believe in a literal accounting of Genesis and we recognize the use of figurative language, yet we would say it does pertain to history in some sense. Early Genesis is not meant to be a rigorous historical account, it's more legendary. One theory is that God guided evolution up to proto-humans, then God ensouled a pair with rational souls (the first parents), and there was some kind of rebellion, and these fallen-soul humans populated the human community; perhaps these events line up with the neolithic revolution or the advent of cities in Mesopotamia where we see a marked change in rational human nature. So you would hold God responsible for what his creatures freely chose to do? Simply because he foresaw it? Perhaps you would have a point if he "did nothing" about it, like maliciously allowing bad to happen, but you really can't say that conclusively, since you don't know the whole story, how do you know there isn't a greater good being worked on? We do know that God did come to solve the problem in the person of Jesus, taking the brokenness of the world on himself, dying, and rising to redeem the world. It's a very mysterious thing, God's omnipotence and omniscience takes into account man's free actions; while we are writing the story so to speak, he beholds the whole story in one moment. It goes to show God's power in that even those things he doesn't "own" like evil he can use toward his own end. Slavery is an interesting topic. Historically, slavery has been a fact of human nature, and to a degree the master/servant archetype still exists today in employers and employees. We can actually credit Christianity for modern sentiments against slavery based on the fundamental principle of the dignity of all people. For a period of time in early Christendom, slavery had actually been eradicated. Arguably, even the OT practice was tame by comparison to the world around them. The thing is, historically, sometimes, taking someone into your service (and treating them well) is among the dignified things to do, even though slavery is objectively an evil thing (as in there wouldn't be slavery in heaven), since these people are often indebted and can't survive on their own, or they're prisoners of war serving reparation for the damage done where the alternatives are killing them or letting them go to foster revenge. It's similar to killing in self defense, the death in itself is not a good thing and ideally should be avoided, but sometimes you need to kill the assailant to preserve something good. As for what's in the Bible, you'll notice that the problematic passages are mostly Levitical, very early in salvation history, which applies to something called progressive revelation; basically God is gradually teaching his people over time how we ought to live given how hard out hearts can be, and we can see how the teaching has "changed" when we read Philemon and other parts of the NT. Treat those we serve with humble obedience and treat those who serve us with justice and dignity. But of course all you did was deflect onto me, you haven't answered the issue of slavery from the perspective of atheism. Only atheists can turn mercy into a bad thing You're missing the point about the story-conflict analogy. It's what we call a theodicy, vindicating the goodness of God in the face of apparent evil. In terms of empirical evidence, the best I could point to is going to be surrounding the historical person of Jesus. And then perhaps we could talk about saints and miracles. But in terms of proving God, surely you've heard it a million times but the realm of science and "evidence" and the realm of God are categorically different things. You're gonna have to think more meta to get at what God is, like philosophy, because he's not one more thing among many "in the universe" that can be observed and peer reviewed. Rather think of it this way: science itself is impossible if the universe isn't intelligible. This intelligibility we perceive is not expected given atheism, but it is expected given theism. This is why more mathematicians are theistic than biologists. The right question is "why does anything exist" not "why does this thing exist." Anyway, I am not against reason and evidence; the whole project of science owes a lot to Christianity. Just to substantiate that quickly, think about how pagans believe gods reside in the world while Christians believe God is outside his creation; this means we can subject the universe to tests to understand it, which would be taboo given paganism. Atheists hate it when Christians impose that they believe there is no god, "no it's a lack of belief in a god." Same way, it's not fair for you to impose what we mean by faith. In a sense, faith doesn't involve reason, however, it isn't therefore opposed to reason. If God genuinely prophesied something, what could be more reasonable than trusting it since it comes from a trustworthy source? Abraham had faith that his son Isaac would not die when God tested him because God had already promised a multitude of descendants through him. In one sense, Abraham didn't have evidence an angel would stop him, yet he knew God to be trustworthy. Faith goes beyond reason, but is not opposed to it. Catholics are just as against superstition as you would be.

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@kreatillion1718 _"your comment got deleted?"_ No, I still see it here. But KZbin does a lot of screwy things lately. If you can't see a comment, you might try sorting the comments by "Recent," rather than by "Top Comments." Admittedly, that makes it a pain to find anything. Here, I'll copy-and-past my previous comment below (then start a new reply to you, separately): @kreatillion1718 _"Surely we can imagine a world where there isn't any death"_ You know? I don't think that I can. Death is a part of life. As far as I can tell, if there wasn't death, there wouldn't be life - not anything we'd recognize as "life," certainly. Death _allows_ life. But anyway, if I want to imagine things, I'll read a fantasy novel. I'm more concerned with what's actually true. _"And atheists complain all the time about why a good God would create a world with suffering in it, as if they imply it should be better than it is."_ It _should_ be, if a "good God" exists. But that's not a "complaint." It's just an observation. This world really isn't consistent with the idea of a "good God." And the Bible _definitely_ isn't consistent with that! Now, I'm not saying that death wouldn't exist. But there'd be a whole lot less unnecessary suffering. Cancer in children, for example? What kind of "good God" would give cancer to children? Or birth defects? Or parasitic worms which burrow into a child's eye and blind them? I could go on and on. Somewhere in the world, as you read this, a child is choking to death, thanks to the idiotic way we breath and eat from the same opening. If a god designed that, he should be fired. But there's zero evidence that it's anything but natural evolutionary processes which simply _can't_ plan ahead. _"this is my point about how things now are not how they are meant to be, and this is not God's fault but man's, since God gave us Eden"_ Don't be silly. First, you don't really take that Garden of Eden story _seriously,_ do you? Even _Christians_ don't believe that actually happened, most of them. (This is a Catholic channel. Catholics don't believe in a literal Garden of Eden, do they?) But more importantly, modern Christians tell me that their god is omniscient and omnipotent. If that's true, then everything that happened was God's _plan._ If an omniscient, omnipotent creator god exists, then he knew everything that was going to happen before he even created the universe. You can't surprise an omniscient deity. And an _omnipotent_ deity would not be limited on who or what he created. So, if that is true, he created _exactly_ the world he knew he would get. If there's any fault to be had, it is _definitely_ God's. _"What right do we have to say humans are not meant to be bought and sold as subhuman property if atheism is true?"_ Heh, heh. You've have _got_ to be kidding me! The Bible _tells_ you to do that. How in the world can you bring up slavery when the Bible _tells_ you to buy and sell human beings as property??? Have you not even read your own 'holy book'? Check out Leviticus 25:44-46. It lays out precisely America's system of race-based slavery. It even tells you _why_ you should enslave those... other people, instead of your own people (not that it doesn't support enslaving them, too). _"For instance, Adam may have known about God's justice, but unless he fell he would never learn his mercy."_ Wow! Your god is really a complete POS, isn't he? Luckily, there seems to be no good reason to think that he's anything but just imaginary. _"if God is like an author writing a story (where the characters are free), would it not have some kind of conflict?"_ So God is just fiction? Yeah, that makes sense. _"Perhaps I can just as easily say"_ You can say anything you like. But as long as you don't have even *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself, backing up your religious beliefs, I'm not going to be able to take it seriously. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. So, as long as you don't have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking, I just can't take your claims seriously. _"God could have made things differently, but he chose this way for some reason"_ *Evidence?* _"there must be a necessary terminator to the chain which fully explains itself, which is God."_ *Evidence?* _"Faith is a trust in revelation"_ Faith - in the religious sense of the word - is belief without evidence or despite the evidence. It can't be trust, based on the evidence, as long as you don't have anything - *anything* - distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs. Do you? Just *one* specific example? Just *one* piece of good evidence that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Of *one* piece of good evidence that _any_ of the magical/supernatural stories in the Bible actually happened? Thanks for the reply!

[@reverendcoffinsotherson5807]

Why cant the Novus Ordo Mass be like the Divine Worship Mass in the Anglican Ordinariate or like the Mass in Western Rite Orthodox parishes? Why do most Roman Catholic Masses lookike Protestant services?

[@shortstopmotions]

There is a big difference between Catholic doctrine and protestant doctrine. For example, Catholics pray to saints Mary, while protestant don't. Another difference is the Pope.So no, Catholic mass is nothing like the protestant teaching.

[@bibbatybobbityboo]

Go watch the first Mass Of The Ages, and you'll have your answer.

[@marvalice3455]

Because vice robs us of our gifts.

[@marvalice3455]

@@shortstopmotions it's ok, you don't understand the complaint. If someone is saying something that makes absolutely no sense to you, you are likely not in a position to help. No matter how clever you believe the come back might be. And that's ok

[@Jerome616]

they don't, they do in America because of a difference in style, the Mass looks slightly different all over the world.

[@tomfrombrunswick7571]

The angry atheist is one out of the fundamentalist playbook. If you look at South Korea, Japan, the United Kingdom or Australia the approach to religion is not hatred but indifference as religion has died in those countries. If you look at studies in America you will also find that the angry atheist is a myth. If you want an angry person try a few preachers Greg Locke comes to mind. One wonders why this sort of . frankly. irrational tripe gets republished. When someone repeats what is not true one can tell something about the perpetuator such as poor research

[@Burt1038]

lol weird flex, bro. Three of those countries are literally dying, period, and the fourth one (UK) is only not dying because its slowly becoming an Islamic Caliphate. Well done!

[@sarbnitrof4663]

I am as mad at god as i am at fairies, dragons, and unicorns.

[@stultusvenator3233]

Damn those Unicorns they keep eating my garden flowers, what else could it be..

[@rightpa]

At least fairies, dragons, and unicorns dont give kids bone cancer.

[@stickyrubb]

​@@rightpaand they don't allow rape every single minute of the day somewhere on Earth

[@El-Harto]

The best response to "why doesn't God prove himself" is to ask "if He did, would you believe Him?"

[@El-Harto]

@@pottingsoil You seem to have a lot of anger. I'll keep you in my prayers.

[@pottingsoil]

@@El-Harto brother, I am helping the least amongst me. By telling you that you're a moron and that you should work on that, I'm helping you. This is how I get into the kingdom of heaven. I have been praying that my fellow Christian no longer post stupid shit online. So far, my prayers are unanswered. May god judge your equal soul but lesser mind with grace and justice.

[@pottingsoil]

@@Demoniodg I will not hear perceived wisdom from blasphemous individuals. I have found all the help that I need in our lord, savior, and fulfiller of prophecies ---> Joshua. Matthew 2:23

[@marvalice3455]

​@@pottingsoilyour prayers are more likely to be answered if you conform your will to that of Christ

[@pottingsoil]

@@marvalice3455 It is. You would know if you were Christ and not a sinful piece of clay. Matthew 25:31-46

[@Angel-nl1hp]

I'm not angry at a god I do not believe to exist. I do get annoyed when certain people use this nonexistent being as an excuse to try and force their views on morality onto everything else though.

[@Papa-bk4il]

I remember having doubt in my faith due to kid cancer and suffering. But then I remembered what Mother Mary went through with the torture and murder of her son. Jesus Christ bless everyone.

[@Bill_Garthright]

Um,... huh? How did that make you stop doubting? I don't see a connection there.

[@Unclenate1000]

@@Bill_Garthright yeah lol, none of the necessitates nor justified the needless suffering lol

[@TheLjdevlin86]

Thanks for this. As a survivor of childhood cancer, I can’t imagine what my parents endured. Great connection with what Our Lady felt with her son, our Lord.

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

Well Jesus predicted his resurrection 3 times so she should have been consoled by that. Little kids that die unbaptised according to your religion wind up in limbo which is better than hell I guess, good thing your unchanging church quit sending them straight to hell like they used to teach.

[@gagarin12A3]

Why would more unnecessary suffering justify unnecessary suffering?

[@kingbradley9066]

Shao Lin Practice the Horse Stance... The Horse stance pales in comparison to Cliffe's wide stance when he starts to "cook". 😂😂😂

[@huntergrove8736]

We have mirror neurons, we decide things are wrong because we do not want them to happen to us

[@catholicfemininity2126]

The weirdest thing is athiests or non-Christians getting angry at God The Trinity when they don't even believe in him. So they do believe in him? Because otherwise, why would they be so angry? God can work with these people, but he can't work with the indifferent. God help that one guy who was so angry about the injustice to the Jews.

[@KasperKatje]

Most atheists are angry about the belief in and claims about that god and the influence on society, so also in them. Why do we need to hear over and over again we are immoral, (tool of/possesed by) Satan, have to repent, only like to sin etc.? Satan is part of your religion, not our life. Keep your god, Satan and judging to yourselves.

[@reinedire7872]

A good observation. I think a lot of people conflate a disbelief in God with a hatred of Him due to perceiving existence itself as some kind of imposition.

[@NTNG13]

it's all because of pessimistic and existentialist philosophies. From Schopenhauer through Nietzsche to Sartre they all go on and on about the meaninglessness of existence and the suffering that is being born. Atheists love to flock to these death ideologies and wallow in their self pity and despair.

[@Bill_Garthright]

I think a lot of theists just make up whatever they _want_ to be true.

[@totalmalarkey]

No. I dont think there's a god that exists to impose itself, but I'm really sure that the church I grew up in exists, and I'm really sure that they try to impose on others. That is what i oppose, and especially when it's as rotten and corrupt as it is.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

the problem is theists are dishonest and insecure and for people who claim they have the maker of the universe on their side, a creator who is invincible, they sure are pissing their pants over atheists - people who for the most part spend 99% of their time NOT caring about god, cos there is no god to fret over. religists are ignorant people - ignorant of how my mind works at least.

[@tlewis84able]

I think admitting there is space-time (at 13.8 billion years old) already leaves you with the question: “Who or what invented it?” Without answering that first leaves every other point mute.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

Nature. Next question?

[@randomusername3873]

I love how theists say this stuff as if it somehow leads to their god

[@xyztogrutamamenchi7894]

Is nature something within or outside of space and time?

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@xyztogrutamamenchi7894 Reality!

[@Mythraen]

LOL "Invented" Here's a question: Why do you think it was invented? And, I do not just mean your poor choice of words. Why do you believe spacetime, something which encompasses the whole of TIME could ever have not existed? At what TIME would it have not been doing that?

[@thecloudtherapist]

Atheists also forget about God's justice not only being fulfilled (to right all wrongs inflicted on the innocent and nature) but also that it's inescapably retributive.

[@oldensad5541]

I would agree with you in any other case, but not innsace of problem of evil/question of hell. I don't think that dude was in the wrong. Coz you guys have no good answer for this . I know it sounds arrogant and condescending, but let me illustrate for you typical exange about problem of evil: -why god allows suffering? -sin -ok. why innocent, like children, suffer? -human free will -why innocent suffer from something caused not by man, like viruses? -suffering purifying -why animals suffer? Do they have soul to be in need of purification? -Aghtrdfhh!!!.. And this is never ending circle. Considering you usually forced to give explicit description of some form of suffering and injustice, and your opponent usually tell you how it's ok to this thing to happen... It's gets infuriating pretty quickly. And yes, it never leads to your opponent admission "no, i don't no why suffer exists" or "no, loving god shouldn't allow this to happen" despite to clear and inarguable picture of the world. So... Why to even bother to honestly debate about this?

[@imusmoedegrasse]

If you are angry at God, then you are a theist that is angry at God. What reason would an atheist have to be angry at some God he doesn't believe exists?

[@konyvnyelv.]

I hate Dolores Umbridge

[@imusmoedegrasse]

@@konyvnyelv. Yes, I understand. When reading or watching fictional media people do get angry with the bad characters. Also, in some philosophical debates, one may temporarily take the position of supposing some God exist for the sake of the argument. These are the only two reasons I can think of at the moment why an atheist might seem angry at any God.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@konyvnyelv. that's actually a good illustration of why saying we're angry at god is dumb, i have no more idea who god is than dolores here - how can i be angry at either of them?

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@imusmoedegrasse lol you need to get out more. it's not possible for theists to understand where atheists are coming from, theists spend 24/7 worrying about pleasing god and think atheists do the same, whereas we spend 100% of our time not thinking about god a t all. youtube is the one place i like to troll the talking snake and donkey cult cos it's fun, other than that - who is this god? i have no idea.

[@Mythraen]

@@HarryNicNicholas Well, you see, he's this guy who exists (you know, that thing you do in time and space?) outside time and space. Oh, and while he was doing that, he also made a garden in time and space and walked around in it for some reason.

[@randomusername3873]

Any time the idea of christianity might have something valuable to it, I just watch a video of a random apologist, and suddently any doubt of it being anything else than a bunch of dishonest people taking advantage of some manipulated crowd disappears Thank you

[@jkellyid]

The angry atheist is someone with Daddy issues 99% of the time. I've not met the other 1%, but I put that in there to leave room to discover a new cause. Moreover I tend to find they believe in God in some capacity and are so pissed at him because Daddy issues they act as if they "don't have a father."

[@troig43]

'Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again.' - Karl Marx

[@JustARandomBrotherInChri-zg6ku]

One word: "relationship".

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i find it odd that this "personal god" ain't really passing on important information, not how to solve hunger, god doesn't mind children starving to death, i mean he doesn't tell anyone which denomination is the right one. either that or he's telling them ALL they are right?

[@JustARandomBrotherInChri-zg6ku]

​@@HarryNicNicholas ah yes, the classic "problem of evil", which we do not have a definite answer. The only thing we know is that through God's infinite wisdom and goodness, He allowed some evil and brokenness to happen (including hunger, not that He's the cause of them), because "he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it" (Cathecism of the Catholic Church 311). How exactly? We are not entirely sure, and it's none of our business to ask God what He should instead do. What matters is, God has assigned humans to take care of each other, it's up to us to either sit on our couch and blame God, or do the best we can to feed each other, to give them clothes/money, to comfort them in sadness, etc. Also, we know that Catholicism is the truth, because Jesus who had raised from the dead, entrusted His command to the early church. People can disagree with this, but that does not mean there is no one true faith (or denomination).

[@Diviance]

@@JustARandomBrotherInChri-zg6ku And I know Catholicism isn't the truth, because the biblical Jesus couldn't exist (Adam and Eve didn't exist, therefore no original sin, therefore no sin and no need for a messiah... so Jesus could not be the messiah). People can disagree, but that doesn't make their delusional versions of reality true. This is fun.

[@Mythraen]

Two words: "camera pants."

[@JustARandomBrotherInChri-zg6ku]

@@Diviance If you are sincerely looking for truth, I would like to invite you to present the evidence that Jesus (or original sin) does not exist. If you are just messing around, then I'll end the discussion here. Peace.

[@panoramicprism]

Having been one of those athiests, I totally admit that now that I believe in God, I actually do feel like I am insane sometimes. I'm in awe, terrified, confused but convicted... I like it. Ha

[@undolf4097]

Mood

[@athensexplorer]

what convinced you to change from atheist to stupid? I meant to believer.

[@Battlefield1918]

Glad to hear that you came to God. Do you come to the Catholic church? Or a different denomination?

[@konyvnyelv.]

I used to believe in Santa. Now I am saved

[@panoramicprism]

@@konyvnyelv. cute

[@kwood55]

Ah yes......gentle Christian gaslighting

[@holmavik6756]

Because they hold the God they don’t believe in responsible for all the evil things humans have done

[@Finckelstein]

Utter nonsense. We can explain why people do "evil things". We can explain why 20 years ago 230.000 people died in a massive tsunami. It is you who can't account for that. Your tri-omni god is incompatible with reality. And no "muh free will" doesn't affect tsunamis. Sorry to say.

[@Skarlet-ju8sr]

They're all angry.

[@firenze6478]

They believe that life is pointless, and that death is eternal, and the sun will eventually destroy everything. They are miserable And want everyone else to be just as miserable.

[@slynt_]

@@firenze6478 Don't you think that is just as emotional an accusation as the atheists you're talking about would make?

[@stultusvenator3233]

I'm not! Nor are the vast majority I know, so not all then. Can't say the same for most theists I know. I do feel sorry for them.

[@Skarlet-ju8sr]

@stultusvenator3233 I'm pretty sure most leftists are athiests and that most are angry with the Church for having some sort of hand at overturning Roe v Wade and having a strong set of principles to fall back on. I argued with an angry old man who claimed religion caused all the ills of humanity and I pointed out that athiests in the 20th century debunked THAT notion hard. Apparently humans don't need religion to be complete shitbags, which renders the athiests' argument in that regard moot.

[@springwood1331]

I'd say they still behave as if they're religions - its just this time they're godless neo-religions

[@alexandertiberius1098]

Richard Dawkins is not just an athiest, he is an anti-theist. I usually refer to him as a science-ist. I'm not mad at your god, I'm open to evidence for it but, no human is capable of providing that evidence so why would I waste my time? What is amusing is that you've given the exact reason humans created religion: who do I shake my fist at? What explains this thing I can't explain?

[@FlashTrance]

I think "does God exist" is already a doomed question, fundamentally. It seems to presume that He exists like any other thing exists, such that if I can't sense Him with my physical senses, therefore He doesn't exist (which is the rational conclusion). But God doesn't merely exist, He is the very ground of existence itself. The question should not be "does God exist" it should be "what is the nature of God?" We as Christians have failed to go deep enough into our tradition to satisfactorily explain what "God" even means; our failure and laziness is why atheism is on the rise, Lord have mercy on us.

[@roshinvarghese6879]

If you are asking the question does God exist your presupposing things that exist only if God exists such as logic and the moral obligation to know the truth. If there is no god then the question itself can’t even be asked. It’s a meaningless noise.

[@Bill_Garthright]

_"He is the very ground of existence itself."_ *Evidence?* That's a pretty bold claim. I don't even know what it's supposed to _mean._ And do you have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing it up? Just *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself? Because claims are easy. That's why _every_ religion makes claims. It's just so _easy_ to make claims. Heck, even my three-year-old neighbor can make claims. It's not hard. _"our failure and laziness is why atheism is on the rise"_ OK, well, now is a perfect time to turn that around, don't you think? What does "God" mean to you? And do you have one piece of good evidence that "God" is real, rather than just imaginary? Just *one?* Why is *one* too much to ask?

[@FlashTrance]

​@@Bill_Garthright "God is the ground of existence" is an axiomatic definition, not a claim. If you believe existence has any grounding, which it must for us to even contemplate the issue, then we should be able to agree on that. Forgive me, but this sort of semantic pushback is tiresome and typically made in bad faith, so I will not continue the discussion if we cannot concede on that basic point.

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@FlashTrance _""God is the ground of existence" is an axiomatic definition, not a claim."_ Oh, no, it's a claim. You can't _define_ your god into existence. You made a claim about "God." Can you back it up with anything distinguishable from wishful-thinking or can't you? Now you're trying to claim, with nothing backing it up, that your claim is axiomatic. But I don't agree with that. Not even a little bit. I don't even know what you _mean_ by "the ground of existence," let alone why I should automatically accept, with no evidence whatsoever, that it's your god. And is that all you mean by "God"? That seems bizarre if you're actually a Christian. I don't know that, of course. Maybe you're some weird kind of deist? But this _is_ a Christian channel. So, I suspect that you're just trying to get out of demonstrating even *one* piece of good evidence that your god actually exists. You'll just claim it's axiomatic, huh? And I'm supposed to _believe_ your claim? Why? _"If you believe existence has any grounding"_ Why would I believe that? I don't even know what that's supposed to _mean._ _"this sort of semantic pushback is tiresome"_ Because you don't have anything backing it up? Well, don't make the claim, then. As I say, "the ground of existence" means absolutely _nothing_ to me. It's just word-salad. And _now_ you claim that it's unquestionable? Heh, heh. Well, if I didn't have anything but word-salad backing up _my_ beliefs, I might make the same claim. (Well, no, I wouldn't. Because I care about the truth. And if I didn't have anything but word-salad backing up my beliefs, I wouldn't believe them.) _"I will not continue the discussion if we cannot concede on that basic point."_ So, I have to agree with you about something I don't even _understand_ or else you'll run away? Heh, heh. And you were wondering why your own "failures" and your own "laziness" were increasing the numbers of atheists? Really? This is a pretty good example of why, don't you think? Talk or not, that's up to you. But I'm not going to agree with word-salad I don't even _understand._ Then again, if you can't *make your case,* then you're not likely going to be worth my time, anyway, huh? So I won't be heartbroken if it turns out you have nothing else.

[@FlashTrance]

​@@Bill_Garthright I would humbly recommend thinking about what "ground of existence" means. Consider for yourself what sustains and maintains order and logic in the universe. Then consider whether or not that thing, whatever you determine it to be, is dependent on anything else. If it is, then what is it dependent on? Keep following that line of thinking to the end and you should have found something you believe is not dependent on anything else, but upon which everything else depends. The Church Fathers and I call that God, but to call it anything at all, you first need to look for it. I spent years as an agnostic studying philosophy and religion and contemplating these things. I've replied to you because you're putting time into your comments, and that indicates to me you have some legitimate interest in the matter. If so, KZbin comments are not the starting point. You need to consider what "ground of existence" means to you. If all this is word salad and you have no interest in it, atheism is your answer. If atheism satisfies you, you need not inquire further. Not all atheists are atheists because they refuse to think; those are the ones I was referring to in my initial comment.

[@Menacetothekingdomofdarkness]

Those who say "God doesn't exist" - well its because you're running away from the Truth. Go and look for the evidence of Jesus life, ressurection and of God and THEN speak the same thing. God has given us more than enough evidence to believe in him - the only scenario that's not the case is when the person has a powerful emotional bias against and does not want to look for the evidence

[@Fancy_Creb]

Sorry, I was raised Jewish, but over time I found myself needing god less and less to explain the world around me, and now I'm a pretty stone-cold atheist. I have no reasons to believe, and I actually think that the Christian god is kind of an incoherent concept.

[@Menacetothekingdomofdarkness]

@@Fancy_Creb Yeah, you can explain through world without God However, without Jesus a part of you is going to feel empty - he will fill & change your heart like no one else I was atheist with money, women, respect in community etc, successful trajectory, but I still felt empty- I too was able to explain the world without God & thought it's just a cope belief But eventually I came to a bad spiritual place and had a personal encounter with Jesus - hes real, hes caring & will change your life. Also, I was raised Hindu so I get your situation... I was there

[@Fancy_Creb]

@@Menacetothekingdomofdarkness I'm curious what you would think, then, if I told you that I felt that I was content and fulfilled. I don't really feel like anything is missing in my life, and I'm not sure what Jesus could even do for me if he did exist.

[@Finckelstein]

"Go and look for the evidence of Jesus life, ressurection and of God and THEN speak the same thing. " I did. There isn't even any evidence that he existed in the first place. Let alone that he did ANY of the ridiculous stuff the gospels claim he did. I will accept that some guy named Yeshua existed back then, but your magical thinking nonsense isn't "truth" - it's just what you want to be true.

[@Menacetothekingdomofdarkness]

@@Finckelstein Did you say theres no evidence for Jesus life? Cuz if you did you'd know most scholars study agree that Jesus was a real person. And we certainly do have evidence for Resurrection, and it is of the same type that you'd find for any other person in the past... you ain't finding a film crew recorded evidence , but the evidence has been analyzed by a great number of Scholars and it's certainly real. If you actually studied evidence, you won't say theres none

[@RustyWalker]

I disagree with Dawkins and Atkins because I know full well I can be persuaded to believe things. It doesn't make the belief true and it doesn't mean I necessarily have a rational justification for that belief. I can be convinced a belief is true by the power of persuasion and other charlatanry. Derren Brown demonstrated that whilst not holding the belief he was about to implant in someone else, who he had to apologise to after the fact and explain that the experience _he_ had induced was entirely psychological. I agree that "witnessing a miracle" isn't necessarily good evidence, since you can _easily_ be mistaken. Think of the Hindu milk statues. That's a phenomenon caused by milk travelling up the material of the statue and then appearing to drip out of it somewhere higher up. It doesn't prove whichever god that statue is dedicated to is real. You say, Brian, that this standard of skepticism is unreasonable, but you only say that in the context of the miracles you like to attribute to *your* preferred deity. You are entirely comfortable with being skeptical of miracles attributed to the gods and goddesses of other faiths, both extant and historical. That's a double standard. I'm skeptical of _all_ purported miracles equally.

[@imusmoedegrasse]

I can be convinced of something simply with convincing evidence.

[@RustyWalker]

@@imusmoedegrasse That's the TLDR, yes. Convincing evidence _doesn't_ necessarily make the explanation you derived from that evidence true, though, and that's what my longer comment was trying to lay out. You can be convinced and wrong. You can be convinced but not justified.

[@imusmoedegrasse]

@@RustyWalker There are no absolutes. Yes, even when you think you have knowledge (a justified true belief) about something you can still be wrong. I hold very few beliefs.

[@RustyWalker]

@@imusmoedegrasse Who mentioned absolutes? I don't hold to epistemic certainty but I do have unjustified beliefs. Rather than saying "I don't believe it," because I actually do, I recognise the problem and remind myself to watch out for information that might falsify it. People sometimes say you can't choose your beliefs, and I think it is generally true although there are cases where people seek out one-sided evidence that persuaded them in one direction even if the opposite is a better case, or worse, a justified case.

[@imusmoedegrasse]

@@RustyWalker I believe I exist. I believe the sun will rise and set each day. I believe these things, because I can verify/justify them through observation. I don't believe I hold any unjustified beliefs. I subscribe to the idea that you can't choose your beliefs. Beliefs are derived from prior causes, internal and external pressures that are beyond a persons control. Even people who seek out one-sided evidence.

[@TnOrchidguy]

Thank you, Mr. Brian, thank you.

[@brightargyle8950]

Another misrepresentation of the atheist position. I guess when you can't come up with good arguments you create imaginary ones like this. Atheism is NOT a monolith, there is no set way of life or thinking for an atheist beyond not believing in a god. That's it. It's reasonable to be upset by the idea of a monstrous being that does and allows unimaginably horrible things. The fact that people defend this supposed being is what upsets people, not just atheists. Just showing contempt and disgust with another persons assertions does not mean they believe in that god in any way in the same way someone might hate Sauron in the world of middle earth. He is repugnant and unlikable but has nothing on the god of the bible. If someone started talking about how Sauron was real and pushing for laws and regulations that affect EVERYONE revolving around his intent you would argue against it as well since you do not think Sauron was real. People DO get emotional and let it show, as the man arguing with Knechtle, the man also knew that Knechtle would give him a disgusting excuse for god's allowance of the holocaust. It's an argument without excuse and if you are willing to defend a being, real or imaginary, who would allow it then you have bigger problems than someone walking away and being unwilling to let their ears be filled with verbal vomit from the likes of that horrible street preacher. Atheists are not angry AT god, they are angry about the defense of what should not be if god was actually real. Get it right or don't bring it up at all.

[@johncats805]

Please can anybody help me to understand how the man in this KZbin video below is mistaken? " Former Roman Catholic Priest for 22 Years Richard Bennett Answers Questions About Roman Catholicism "

[@imusmoedegrasse]

Well, first off, he is supposing God, the Catholic God, actually exist. Second, he is supposing he knows what this Catholic God expects humans to do.

[@raya.p.l5919]

J e s u s P o w e r in the house 😮

[@stultusvenator3233]

Nothing as usual.

[@righty-o3585]

I am not angry at god , i do not hate god , because I do not believe that god exists .

[@stultusvenator3233]

There you go being all logical in a room full of people hearing voices and cosplaying god is real. Bravo for the optimism.

[@chrisrose6873]

Praying for you

[@righty-o3585]

@@chrisrose6873 Why ? If your god is all knowing , then there's no need to pray for me , because your god would already know .

[@Finckelstein]

@@righty-o3585 Worse than that. His god supposedly created you having perfect foreknowledge of everything you will do. So he knew you'd end up an atheist even before he created the universe. And this chum here thinks he can change that by talking to himself for a bit.

[@thecloudtherapist]

​@@righty-o3585That's not quite how prayer works. You need to incorporate Molinism (the concept of Middle Knowledge).

[@neuntausendlux]

Hi, i'm an atheist. I'm not angry at your beliefs and I don't think that atheist are angry about your so called god. That would imply we agree there is a christian god we could be angry about. That's not working. I'm angry about grown-ups who believe a dusty old book full of contradictions, fairytales and superpowers is a guidance for life and even worse for those who don't believe in such things. greetings from germany

[@harrygarris6921]

But if you don’t believe in an objective sense of morality why should anyone bother listening to what you have to say?

[@neuntausendlux]

@@harrygarris6921 that's an answer of ignorance

[@j.a.n.e.n]

I am not angry, I am amused

[@philhart4849]

Brian, you have completely missed the point. I am blazingly furious at everybody who cites their particular god as justification for the evil that they do to others, and I suspect that many of those of whom you speak are of a similar mind. Almost as an aside, even asking the question "Why are atheists angry at God?" presupposes the existence of the god of which you speak. When it comes to the question of the existence of god, and any god will suffice, I find it truly remarkable that every theist that I have asked has always refused to provide any falsifiable evidence to support the existence claim of their particular god. Unless and until such evidence is forthcoming I will continue to rage at everybody who continues to peddle the lie known as "god".

[@petermeyer6873]

- Error at 0:00 Atheists are not angry at god, they are angry at theists, see more on that below. - Error at 1:16 The "Rookie of the year" is usually determined by vote (as an expression of taste) and not through objective features. Truth is allways objective and thus cannot be voted on. The question whether any god exists is allways a question about truth. - Error at 3:13 At first, the obvious conclusion would be that one could be halucinating. This is an honest answer, most probably from atheists and theists alike. But nobody in his rational mind stops there! One would then inspect further the new evidence and hopefully not jump to conclusions. The reasons behind the angryness of many atheists are manyfold. The following sure are amongst them: a) The classification made by the atheist of "belief" (especcially the belief in a claim, in the presence of evidence against the claim) as a form of stupidity. (I really cant help, if this upsets anyone, and of course this makes both angry the atheist as well as the theist). b) The claim of ownership made by the believer on behalf of his god towards the atheist. Furthermore, the claim of omniscience made by the believer on behalf of his god. Both usually come as a final reaction to underline the waste of time and efford the atheist has put in the theist during conversation. In other words: - Atheist: "Have you understood the logical fallacies of your belief as I explained them to you so far? - Theist: "Youre soooo clever, but say what you want, I dont have to think things through to be right. I just have to go with what my church says what my god said to them for he is allknowing. And btw. he will punish you AFTER your death, so, Ill generously pray for you from now on." c) The claim made by the theist, that atheists cannot have moral and thus commit anything. Anyone should be careful with such a claim, as it includes allready a judgement of beeing guilty. And some logic sure leads to: When one is found guilty of a deed, therefore he may carry out that deed afterwards in case he has not done so before the judgement to get even. The list is much longer, but in any way, the angryness of most atheists is not against any god - that would be silly, as this would be towards something that doesnt exist in the understanding of the atheist in the first place (just pointing that out for the weakm*nded). The atheists angryness is allways towards the theists as a reaction to their behaviour/statements. And finally: Angryness is an emotional reaction, not an argument, nor a crime. We can all be angry as h*ll sometimes and still wouldnt be making a point. Beeing angry is quite ok.

[@pascalbelle4916]

When Brian says that the problem of evil is like a video game that was designed and can’t be complained against, he is arguing like a lazy Catholic. “Don’t complain against the maker of the universe!” David complains in the Psalms

[@BrianHoldsworth]

I didn't argue that. I said if you don't believe there is anything outside of the universe, how can you complain about the universe, since that's all there is. You have nothing else to compare it to. Be careful to accuse people of moral failings, like laziness. It could be that you are the one who hasn't grasped what is being communicated.

[@imusmoedegrasse]

@@BrianHoldsworth I don't believe there is anything outside of the universe. I don't complain about nature. I don't believe there is any natural evil. Nature does what nature does. Anyone who complains about it is spitting into the wind.

[@KerolosAmgad1]

Iam an atheist but I finf you a very good man 🥰

[@Arete312]

Vivat Christus Rex!

[@sarbnitrof4663]

Sig semper Tyrranosaurus!

[@mountbrocken]

You just described Matt Dillahunty.

[@jaclo3112]

Bit he's not angry at the christian gods. He's angry and dishonest, lying, incredulous and irrational christians.

[@Steelmage99]

1. One should not pretend to know other people's minds better than they themselves do. 2. One should not use "arguments", that they themselves would reject, if the roles were reversed. 3. Members of group A should not represent the attitudes and stances of group B. Let group B represent themselves. I have yet to meet an honest religious apologist. This video didn't change that.

[@BrianHoldsworth]

By claiming I'm dishonest, you just violated point 1. I don't agree with argument 1, which means you violated point 2. All of these points are mere moral assertions, made without any authority or mutual recognition and no supporting premises.

[@Steelmage99]

@@BrianHoldsworth By engaging in point 1 and 2, you *_are_* being dishonest.

[@BrianHoldsworth]

@@Steelmage99 One can be wrong without deceiving. To deceive or lack honesty is a matter of intent, which is an inner quality. IE. You can't know it unless you know my thoughts and are therefore guilty of violating your own principles.

[@randomusername3873]

​@@BrianHoldsworthapologists spend too much time around these topics to geniunely make arguments that are this bad Unless they are heavily mentally challenged I think being dishonest make apologists look better than the alternative

[@Diviance]

@@BrianHoldsworth But one cannot be intentionally wrong without deceiving. And if you continue to be wrong even after being corrected, as you have... then it must be intentional.

[@walterbison]

@4:56 My sister is unfortunately an atheist and she likes to say "thank the universe!" which is just awkward and willfully ignorant.

[@Bill_Garthright]

Your sister sounds pretty smart. After all, she was probably raised to believe in a god the same way you were, wasn't she? But she overcame that early childhood indoctrination?

[@skepticmonkey6923]

Im glad the she is pissing you off by making fun of you, sad that you're such a judgmental sibling though.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

grrr. you lot are funny. funny sick, obviously but a joke nonetheless. got any more cliches for us?

[@DemainIronfalcon]

You need to be a little more explanatory with your comments, unless your comment is only meant to be seen by your own eyes.. Then I'd argue why bother?

[@Hazeefam]

No we are angry at you Brian for pushing your stupidity on us

[@jabel5]

Instead of presenting atheist strawmen to knock down, why not have a real atheist thinker on your video and try for a real discussion? I understand you to be a Catholic apologist. Here's a question that you can answer on your videos some time. How can you possibly believe in the moral authority of the Roman Catholic Church when over many decades, the Roman Catholic Church has been amply demonstrated to be vigorously working to protect and nurture pedophiles? The Church has expended vastly more energy in the protection of priestly pedophiles from civil consequences worldwide than it has spent in the care for the victims of priestly sexual predation. Having seen the overwhelming evidence during my lifetime, I cannot see how anyone could consider your church to be the agent of a just, loving and all-powerful God. If there is a Catholic God, He is obviously not the master over His own earthly house, let alone the rest of the universe.

[@MrJking1962]

The Bible says that the existence of God is evident to everyone.

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

And why would an atheist care what the Bible says? What does the Bhagavad Gita say? How about the Quran? Book of Mormon? See the problem? Just because you believe in your holy book doesn’t make it true.

[@gagarin12A3]

If you define God e.g. as "stuff that is outside the human consciousness" you can be certain that atheists have a hard time arguing against that. They hate this simple trick!

[@robertwarner-ev7wp]

@@gagarin12A3 Then the atheist should just reply “then why should I care what exists outside of my consciousness “?

[@skepticmonkey6923]

The fanfic i wrote in 4th grade says the existence of gods is evident to everyone

[@sarbnitrof4663]

It must be true since there are so many other religions

[@anubisplays1421]

So much death in the name of god and ideology, that's what athiest are angry at, take the UK it had thrown of the shakles of religion, and then we imported god fearing islamic maniacs.

[@Skarlet-ju8sr]

Proportionately, athiests have killed far more than Christians EVER have.

[@fishdude9102]

@@Skarlet-ju8sr Really? According to your own Bible...your god killed the ENTIRE POPULATION of the world.

[@racheljames7]

The athiest ideology murdered far more people in the 20th century than religious wars ever did. Its also the atheistic Liberal idiots who are improving the Muslims. Engaldn was at its greatest when it was a Catholic monarchy.

[@firenze6478]

More death has been wrought by those seeking to destroy religion than those who bring it. I also witnessed multitudes of atheists cheering when Christians are violently purged and hunted throughout history. Get off your ‘moral’ high horse.

[@slynt_]

That is not what bothers me as an atheist, personally. If the Christian God exists and has strong evidence in favour of his existence then I don't see a problem with most holy wars. Unlike some atheists (for example, CosmicSkeptic) my reasons for unbelief are not moral or emotional. My reasons are based on metaphysics and epistemology. I view God as an unnecessary posit to explain the existence of our universe. The cosmological, ontological, and similar arguments in natural theology are the only ones I'm interested in.