Why Are Laptop Manufacturers Keeping Us In The Dark About CPU Power?

[@br4kecheckd]

It's pretty similar with graphics cards in laptops as well. In a lot of cases a lower numbered graphics card with higher tdp will outperform a higer numbered one with lower tpd or at least match it.

[@OWNORDISOWN]

Yes indeed. Perhaps laptop manufactures should quote a Time spy GPU score and CB 2023 score so everyone can compare. Just like how automakers show their fuel economy. I do think we need more transparency.

[@karibes]

@@OWNORDISOWN hmm, I wonder if they will even do that. I mean, it's quite hassle for them to do any benchmarks... though it would be at least nice for them to specify power for CPU (TDP) and power for GPU (TGP).

[@OWNORDISOWN]

​@@karibesif they are supposedly QA their laptops by testing them they could do it then, they don't have to do it on every laptop. Just one, would take them like 30 minutes...

[@DaddyStrix]

Acer predator does not cap their CPU watts btw. That's why it comes with a 330w power brick charger

[@siyzerix]

Finally! A very valid topic to raise! I would just like to add to your point because it goes deeper than just CPU power. Tuning access: My i7 12650h got a 20% boost to multi core score after I got access to advanced bios. Thats the power of tuning and repasting. Now imagine that 65w core ultra 9 if the same tweaks were applied to it. It could potentially get a 20% boost to its multicore as well. We need undervolting back. And IMON tweak should be standard. Applied from the start. Dynamic boost: This piece of crap software by nvidia means during games the CPU and GPU, when pushed, will be starved for power. So both will power throttle. So even if you repaste the laptop to remove thermal throttling, they'll be artificially power throttling leading to lower performance. It also makes GPU TDP's a lie. A 150w 3070ti mobile is going to really be a 125w card that can potentially access the 25w extra power it shares with the CPU IF the CPU doesn't use it up. But the CPU can use it up and will do so since games are becoming more CPU bound. IMON tweak lets you bypass it. MSI and a few others let you bypass it via their software too. Its still a dumb restriction. Artificial restrictions: I know for a fact, intel and AMD can provide closer to desktop GPU's/CPU's in specs and performance on laptops while keeping the same name. They used to do that too. So people really need to start demanding OEM's to give us advanced bios access, more tuning access from intel, nvidia and amd, remove their dumb dynamic boost/smartshift, etc. because all of it just messes with the TDP values.

[@venomsward5497]

Long time / no see, mate. Looking good, Steve. Ps, I was surprised with fresh montage =)

[@karibes]

It is simple as that as you said. Laptop manufacturers should be transparent what wattage laptop has for CPU and for GPU. Props to MSI doing that, I won't deny that. However for other laptop manufacturers without specifying what TDP CPU has, especially CPU because many laptops are being used for work and, I admit, not many are going to care, but small difference in TDP can mean a big difference depending on the workload, like for blender or any kind application that uses CPU for works/simulations.

[@OWNORDISOWN]

I agree, we need to know what performance we are getting. I think there should be standardized tests they should do so we can compare models, just like fuel efficiency and horse power in cars

[@Selimify]

To Be Fair 65w vs 80w is not a huge power difference however for some cases having lower tdp in certain workloads can help laptop perform better but there is a lot of things to consider nowadays more power not necessarily means more performance because there is also stability factor comes into mind just like how 7800x3D vs 14900K for example ( although it is not fair comparison ) stability matters when cpu needs to perform in higher speeds for long period of time and unstability will cause big problems that might end up degrade the cpu. however in gpus i can safely say that more tdp does help despite it is a generation behind or not 3070ti can be still good alternative for those that love native gpu power instead of investing on 4060 in laptops i don't like the idea of gimmicks to increase performance i just want native performance to be better instead.

[@OWNORDISOWN]

I just want laptop manufactures to come clean and be more transparent with what to expect from a performance perspective. I think there should be a standard to which they should test and inform the consumer so comparisons can be more easily be made.

[@siyzerix]

The 80w CPU laptop will be able to sustain 65w much better than the 65w laptop. Therefore in long intensive CPU workloads, the 80w CPU laptop will be able to easily sustain 65w and thus keep near max performance, BUT the 65w laptop won't be able to do the same. So it ain't as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. Its a fairly complex problems with many different angles. Thats why we need transparency. So we can make decisions better. And you also forget tuning access. If I could undervolt the 65w core 9 ultra, I could potentially make it run as well as the 80w one at stock while lowering temps. Ditto for the 80w one too. Your GPU one is also misleading. The 140w 4060 laptops will beat the 100w 4060 laptops in CPU + GPU heavy workloads due to the 140w (115w + 25w) 4060 laptop letting the 4060 and its CPU use their full power but the 100w 4060 laptop won't. 4060 can't use more than 100w. Shoving higher TDP's just lets you bypass dynamic boost.

[@siyzerix]

Hey stephen, can you please cover why nvidia is threatening OEM's like eluktronics from not raising GPU power limits themselves? Because the 4090m, when given 230-250w will see ~20-25% boost to performance over the 175w version. This will let it match a desktop 4080. Laptops like the asus SCAR 17 can already cool that much power if repasted with liquid metal. Or potentially even PTM7950. Or if you have a liquid cooled laptop. Because we are regressing in desktop laptop parity for no reason other than greed by nvidia.

[@TabalugaDragon]

20-25% is with heavily tuned voltage curve though, it wouldn't be like this out of the box by just raising power limits

[@siyzerix]

@@TabalugaDragon Yeah, which is why I want more tuning control for laptops. The IMON tweak's increased power limits also helped to make sure there's no power throttling ever happening

[@rui569]

No battery life?

[@OWNORDISOWN]

There are many variables that govern battery life such as screen brightness, display technology such as the idea pad pro 5i was an OLED and the Yoga pro 9i is mini LED, the refresh rate plays a large part too. The idea pad Pro 5i battery was 90wh and I got 7 hours 20 minutes on that at 50% brightness whilst the best I got on the yoga pro 9i was 4 hours 5 minutes at 50 % brightness. On the latter I was seeing CPU power anywhere from 5w to 9w which is pretty high. I would expect half of that.

[@karibes]

@@OWNORDISOWN Yeah, Intel laptops, if not really properly optimized, have quite abysmal battery life. Heck, even AMD HX don't have good battery life since those are desktop SoCs.

[@lyntonbell7604]

For gaming we want low power high efficiency chips, why Intel have lost out to AMD

[@OWNORDISOWN]

Yes, Intel have been up against it for a while now. It's a shame AMD hasn't taken advantage thus far. Hopefully with their new chips this will reverse.

[@lyntonbell7604]

@@OWNORDISOWN Hi Steve, yeah I think on the CPU side AMD's done quite well given the zen 4 laptop gaming APUs and power/heat performance vs. Intel; I think the actual issue is chassis manufacturers not yet adopting these chips for high end models e.g. with 4080/90. Imagine Razer Blade with zen 5 APU and what that would do for their performance with the vapour chamber... (but I know you meant on the GPU side ;) )

[@OWNORDISOWN]

​@@lyntonbell7604yeah, i think Intel offer the OEMs big discounts or have such leverage that they can basically dictate what the OEM uses. I remember Gigabyte basically telling me that Intel told them they had to use their processors...

[@knofi7052]

...it seems Intel CPU's are dying over time, anyway!😂

[@karibes]

That depends because Core ultra is different since it doesn't require too much voltage unlike desktop variants and possibly mobile HX variants as well. Besides there are AMD Zen 1 which can be fed for quite absurd voltage yet they are still kicking though probably there are signs of degradation.

[@knofi7052]

@@karibes Unfortunately, it is not really certain that core ultra is not affected, as Intel does not disclose the root cause, yet. Current information on these problems shows that even server CPUs and notebook CPUs are becoming increasingly unstable. Therefore, I would wait and definitely not buy an Intel CPU at the moment.

[@karibes]

@@knofi7052 That's true.... Intel really hasn't disclosed what the real cause is for instability. I agree with you that it's best to wait or if someone really needs new laptop, he/she can always go for AMD. And having laptop with i7-12700h it would seem I dodged the bullet... though the time will tell more.

[@knofi7052]

@@karibes To be honest, I find it quite disturbing that Intel initially blamed the motherboard manufacturers, then claimed that firmware updates would fix the problems, even though it later turned out that this was not the case and that they were just fixing other problems. Since then, there has been no clear communication at all and Intel is probably hoping that the problems will be forgotten as quickly as possible. But since servers that were designed for stability are also affected, the problem seems to be more fundamental.

[@Byehibyehyd579]

First❤

[@marisozi4087]

watts or idiotwatts, every company managing how they wants. laptop is for work and only.

[@TabalugaDragon]

me who's been actively gaming on laptops for over a decade: yeah, sure, whatever you say!

[@karibes]

Yeah? Then you gonna bring "gaming" desktop anywhere with portable monitor, and power station? Good luck with that. Laptop that are also gaming, can be used for work as well. And it's for people deciding what laptop they want to have. Heck, even IdeaPad 5i can be called gaming since it CAN game, hell, even Lenovo Yoga with decent Intel iGPU can game as well albeit low end games. Basically, you can have a laptop that is suitable for work and suitable for gaming while being portable is a perfect situation.